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Frequently asked questions (including details about the summary page)

Target dates: Opened • Evidence phase 1 closes 09 April 2023 • Evidence phase 2: 17 April 2023 - 27 April 2023 • Analysis closes 27 April 2023 • Proposed decision to be posted by 11 May 2023

Scope: Conduct of named parties in the topic areas of World War II history of Poland and the history of the Jews in Poland, broadly construed

Case clerks: Dreamy Jazz (Talk), Firefly (Talk), MJL (Talk), ToBeFree (Talk); Drafting arbitrators: Barkeep49 (Talk), Primefac (Talk), Wugapodes (Talk)

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The evidence talk page is for procedural questions.

Extension

Yes, I know, if it's summarized, I can keep adding. However, I'm at 2376 words for my initial submission (I'm doing a lot of explaining so hopefully arbitrators won't get lost). May I go to 2400 words for my initial submission, and then I'll stick to 1000 words once I get that initial submission summarized. Pretty please? Ealdgyth (talk) 01:22, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Genuinely out of curiosity, is the content so interlaced/connected that it requires the 2400 words to lay out a solid initial platform? In discussing with the other drafters there is some hesitation with granting this because it makes for a very large chunk of text that needs summarising. Primefac (talk) 12:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an example for something that has been in the article The Holocaust in Poland since 2009 - so I decided it didn't need to be in the evidence after I wrote it up, but that gives a feel for why longer explanations are needed:

"The Polish Government in Exile, headquartered in London, also provided special assistance – funds, arms, and other supplies – to Jewish resistance organizations such as the Jewish Combat Organization and the Jewish Military Union." this is sourced to Contested Memories, specifically the article by Dariusz Stola entitled "The Polish Government-in-Exile and the Final Solution" which article is much more than just a discussion of some funds/arms/etc provided to the Jewish resistance movements. On page 86 Stola says "But the government in exile paid less attention to Jewish matters than one might have supposed, particularly from today's perspective." and then on page 90 "Jewish leaders abroad were prodding the government in exile to broadcast by radio an appeal to the Polish population to aid Polish Jewry. But for several months the government resisted, offering various explanations. Eventually, General Sikorski made such an appeal during his speech broadcasted to Poland on 4 May 1943...." which came after news of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising began...(it began 19 April 1943 and was mostly over by 29 April) Stola also notes that Zegota didn't start giving aid to Jews until 1942. I'll note that Stola goes to some length into WHY so much of the aid/efforts were late or didn't accomplish much - and that not all of the reasons were antisemitism, but I would expect that more of Stola's nuance would come through in this section, instead the article is just used to source the fact that some aid went to Jewish resistance groups (while other sources dispute how much actual aid actually went to the fighters or ghetto inhabitants..). Our article highlights the aid provided but glosses over the lateness and the limited nature of that aid. The fact that Zegota wasn't set up until Sept 1942 which was AFTER the majority of the Jews in Poland were killed isn't brought out either. This sentence was added Special:Diff/284696682 in 2009 by Poeticbent (talk · contribs).

Now I could just say "Special:Diff/284696682 This 2009 edit by Poeticbent (talk · contribs) cherrypicks Stola's argument and leaves out details that are less flattering to the Polish side while slanting the article to be positive to the Polish Government in Exile." but then you would not have the quotes and the ability to see for yourself the information in the original quotation.

If you think that this sort of evidence is not helpful, then I can spare myself a lot of effort and just not submit any - because none of the information is "easy" and it's all mostly about source slanting and misuse rather than the "easy" conduct issues of calling each other names. Its up to the arbs, frankly, but if you're not willing to look at the subtle evidence of misuse of sources, it's not worth my time to keep working on this. Ealdgyth (talk) 12:52, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So I am the arb that was skeptical about larger submissions. I remain skeptical but given the scope of this case, if we weren't doing summary style we'd likely be handing out lots of word extensions. So sure let's try the 2400 words as it can help us decide what to do if we get further such requests. Barkeep49 (talk) 13:56, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would like some input on the above example - is it helpful with the longer explanation to understand the issue or is this not the sort of stuff (other than the fact that it's old - I know it's old and from Poeticbent so thats why I wasn't planning on submitting it once I got it written up fully but it makes a good example at least) you want and need? Ealdgyth (talk) 14:08, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To quote one former arb there is abundant ArbCom precedent that deliberately contributing false, misleading, distorted, or very unfairly weighted content can rise to the level of user misconduct. and that kind of evidence is how one would go about proving such a thing. So I would say yes it's useful. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:11, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I think a combination of the two would be helpful; reading your example paragraph it is not immediately obvious what we are supposed to get out of it, but if you started with "Poeticbent cherrypicks arguments..." or similar it gives more context to the text that follows it. Both are helpful in the long run though. Primefac (talk) 14:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Let me just +1 Primefac's advice to start with what we're supposed to be looking for as we read rather than making it a conclusion. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:33, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Let me know if the reworked format works for you guys? I'll point out that I'm at this point just trying to find the errors/problems and document them, and I'm approaching the topic area as a "are there issues with the articles and what are they" rather than a trying to prove or disprove the Grabowski and Klein paper, so I'm doing a lot of digging (without reference to the G&K paper, by comparing the wikipedia articles to the sources given as well a other sources available). Ealdgyth (talk) 14:53, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(non-admin) Small note if it helps, keeping in mind that I have no experience with Arbitration. In trying to read your submission Ealdgyth I did find it a little difficult to follow and I was wondering if more extensive formatting may not help without adding words. E.g. using the ((tq)) template for quotes (whether from sources, articles, or other editors) which helps them stand out. Additional line breaks and bullet points and such are also free. —DIYeditor (talk) 21:53, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My involvement with the subject area is very sparse, but I read about this controversy off-wiki and have been interested in possibly contributing in a very limited way to it. I have maybe three or four diffs, based on sparse involvement. Ealdgyth evidently is far more extensively involved, and she is to be commended for going to all the trouble to dig into the articles in question. Given the unusual and I might add rather vague nature of this case, I would recommend that Arbcom give latitude to editors wishing to provide evidence.

I wonder if perhaps there might be some way of editors to provide summaries of evidence on the evidence page, and then footnotes to longer discussions on a separate page? Coretheapple (talk) 17:08, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Summarization

I see you say that summarization should "avoid evaluative terms". I guess that's where the part about the Naliboki massacre article being "improved" got removed. I'm not going to say y'all are wrong to do that. I will say it's frustrating. My entire purpose was to say that the area needs its editors, imperfect as we are. That was lost. Adoring nanny (talk) 04:08, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We've been discussing this very point behind the scenes. Barkeep49 (talk) 04:47, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Adoring nanny we decided to open the analysis phase now. I have copied your entire evidence submission over to analysis as we agreed that the point you were trying to make with the submission needed consideration and discussion. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:10, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Adoring nanny (talk) 16:29, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What counts: procedural questions

Am I correct in the reading that I should leave the summarizing of threads to arbitrators?
Does summarizing reset the diff count as well as word limits?
In documenting an edit war is it possible to just provide a date range in the history or should every tit for tat be diffed?

Thanks. Trying to triage which of several related possible comments is most useful or important Elinruby (talk) 07:51, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1) Yes. 2) Yes. 3) I suppose it depends on the size and breadth of the edit war. We don't just want a link to the history of a page, but if there is a specific range that can be linked to, that would be better. For example, "at Foo users X and Y each reverted the other six times in the course of an hour" could be supported by a link to the specific history of Foo showing those dozen edits. On the other hand, "User Z edit warred at Bar" could easily be supported by four diff links. Primefac (talk) 08:21, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Evidences of what?

I ask completely seriously. This phase is to collect evidence for what exactly? I have never been involved in ArbCom, so the whole procedure is unclear to me. Marcelus (talk) 14:19, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence of behaviour of the named parties. Does someone edit war, bludgeon, or otherwise cause issue in the topic area? We want to know. Is an editor harassing another editor? We want to know. Did you get accused of 3RR but two of the reverts were perfectly within policy? We want to know. For what it is worth, you are not obligated to provide evidence, so if you cannot think of any specific examples of editor conduct that we should know about, you do not necessarily have to go find any. Let us know if we can clarify further. Primefac (talk) 14:28, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that I don't have to, and at this point I don't plan to. It just wasn't clear what evidences this page is suppose to gather. So as I understant at this point, users can report any wrong conduct of the listed users. Marcelus (talk) 14:57, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

any wrong conduct of the listed users - within the scope of the case, yes. Primefac (talk) 15:00, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Volunteer Marek BLPCRIME vio

Procedural questions resolved, discussion of evidence and such can continue on main case pages. — Wug·a·po·des 23:17, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I was not at all aware of what VM wrote about, I did not know what Icewhiz resorted to. For me, it completely changes the optics of the whole issue, it puts Icewhiz, the people defending him, the G&K article in a completely different light. I imagine that most users not familiar with the case then have similar feelings. Personally, it takes away my interest to edit articles in this topic, or on Wikipedia in general. I imagine the admins have the ability to verify what was said, but it seems to me that in light of what @Volunteer Marek wrote, the "violated WP:BLPCRIME using shocking language" allegation made by @El C should be removed. Because to an outsider who doesn't know the context, it sounds very different than to a person like me who has learned the context. Marcelus (talk) 19:38, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] It seems reasonable to wait for El C to see Special:Diff/1144789105 and to re-evaluate the situation themselves based on this information. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:48, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] Icewhiz is not a party to this case. Icewhiz's conduct has been evaluated and, in what is a huge understatement, he is wholly and completely incompatible with being a Wikipedian. We do not in anyway need to evaluate that. What we do need to evaluate if any of the named parties have had conduct which violate our policies and guidelines (and at least for this first week evidence of editors who should be added as parties). That is what evidence should focus on. So extensive discussion of IW will ultimately be just as out of scope as discussing any other non-party editor. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:51, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] I don't entirely agree. I do think that the focus should be on recent ("post-Icewhiz") activity in this topic area. But whether we like it or not, Icewhiz's fingerprints are all over this topic area and the lead up to this specific case. His actions and the surrounding events are directly linked to and provide necessary context for the issues that this case will address. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:01, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] I am well aware of the death threats, etc., as for over a year I was pretty much the sole admin who dealt with these on a regular basis. My emails with VM number in the dozens, with many perhaps most, concerning this. But just to put the bluster of falsely accusing me of "victim blaming" (a favourite of some as of late) into context — this concerns threats of violence against minors, specifically (how that is phrased). As mentioned, if ArbCom wants to give VM permission to state it like that on the project, wherever, whenever, I suppose that would be their prerogative. But I'd submit, Barkeep49, that it'd be simplest to start with just by undeleting it. Anyway, regardless, I can take a hint, so I'll leave you all to it. El_C 20:25, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] In light of what Barkeep49 posted, I'm uncomfortable with El_C dismissing Volunteer Marek's comments as false accusations, and ~~I suspect ArbCom might find it useful~~ I would appreciate it if El_C were to explain why he regards it as not having been victim blaming. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:02, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] This comment only speaks for myself and I have not discussed it with any other arb or the committee. @El C, I think your interpretation of our BLP policy is correct and the idea that it only applies to article topics is at odds with the policy. I don't think you should take as a hint that we want you to leave us. If we'd wanted to hint at that we would have removed or hatted the commentary, not summarized it and posted it for discussion. I think you could potentially have knowledge of a lot of pertinent evidence for this case and hope you, and other admins who've worked the area, will help provide evidence about what's happened. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:12, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] Barkeep49, so are you going to undelete it? Anyway, I've been prevented from advancing the point that both VM and GCB should have been on their best behaviour in the last few weeks, especially, due to this impending case; that the evidence I presented be viewed in that context. The forcing of no context has shaken my faith in these proceedings. As for Tryptofish's provocations on cue (which are ultimately a distraction): I never dismissed the accusation as false. And their view that I should prove a negative, as in ArbCom might find it useful if El_C were to explain why he regards it as not having been victim blaming — is, to borrow a word, laughable. But also par for the course, so no surprise there. El_C 21:46, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] Perhaps a partially redacted version of the rev-del-ed edit could be made public. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:56, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] El_C I agree that your main point is when these happened not just that they happened, and I can see how the evidence-analysis split makes it harder to point that out. I've added to the evidence summary some more context in hopes of better articulating that point. Personally, I think the analysis page is a good location for a lot of your thoughts: they're more persistent than the evidence page (where it may get summarized and collapsed), and it makes commentary easier to follow than on the evidence page. If you still think the cons outweigh the pros, that's useful feedback; we're still trying this new workflow, so it's good to know what works and what doesn't for participants. — Wug·a·po·des 07:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] Wug, but it has no word limit. How is one even expected to engage VM's "analysis" (to borrow from his own El_C's "evidence") when it's that lengthy and that scattered? The page's somewhat free-for-all format strikes me as problematic and prone to filibustering. El_C 07:33, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] User:El_C, there is a word limit. It's 1000 words. My "analysis" or "evidence" or whatever it's supposed to be called was around 950 words. And it didn't exceed the "diff limit" either. It is not scattered. It is here where it was moved to. You can engage it there. I've made only a few comments/evidence presentations here so far so I am most definetly not "filibustering" anything. Volunteer Marek 17:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] I've waited a day to see what replies might come from Arbs before saying this. It seems to me to be settled that El_C's use of rev-del was according to policy and that whatever BLP considerations went into that use have been endorsed by ArbCom. There is a separate and significant issue of whether Volunteer Marek was subjected to severe harassment, and that also seems to be settled that he was. So the remaining issue, which cannot be evaluated by those of us who cannot see the rev-del-ed edit, is to what degree Volunteer Marek was entitled to comment on that harassment, and to what degree it was a failure to maintain the expected good behvior at this point in time. I still do think that ArbCom could either give a partially redacted version of the edit, or a partially redacted summary of what was salient about it, and it would be helpful to do so. I find some of El_C's comments to me just above to have been unprovoked and incompatible with ArbCom's stated rules of decorum on case pages. I'll note: the bluster of falsely accusing me of "victim blaming" followed by I never dismissed the accusation as false. Also, I never asked El_C to prove a negative, because I never asked him to prove anything – just to explain his reasoning. answered --Tryptofish (talk) 18:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] It said the same thing that I later wrote in my evidence submission, just more succinctly. Volunteer Marek 19:21, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] I think endorsed by ArbCom is probably too strong. I'm just guessing here, but I doubt most arbs have seen this conversation. My position, to be completely clear, is that the use of revision deletion was reasonable, but not so unambiguous that we can pick from the two extremes of "unlimited posting" and "redact on sight". Honestly, the wording of the cited section is more confusing than helpful for me in this situation. If you want the committee to come to a nuanced position on how WP:BLPCRIME applies to on-wiki allegations about misconduct by another editor, a discussion and decision like that is not going to be done on the timescale of hours; even then I'd vastly prefer a community discussion on what to me seems like largely a policy question. A partially redacted version is already available. See User talk:Gitz6666 (permalink). As for the spat between you and El_C, how about we call it here, eh? I'm still trying to work through Ealdgyth's evidence regarding conduct in articles specifically regarding sourcing; some might recall that as being a major point for this case. As it stands, I'm not particularly interested in moderating a debate between two people who aren't even parties regarding what can be said about a third person who also is not a party. As the banner at the top says, this page is for procedural questions and we seem to be quickly losing sight of that. — Wug·a·po·des 19:16, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] I think that your clarification here is plenty nuanced, and I thank you for clarifying that. For the partially redacted version, I see that the central part is Yeah, well, I never threated (Redacted) so right there there's one small difference between me and Icewhiz., which occurs during a discussion where Volunteer Marek is talking about the harassment by Icewhiz. Obviously, those of us who don't see the redacted part have no way to assess what it was or how strong or weak it is as evidence of anything potentially sanctionable by ArbCom – but I'm going to trust that ArbCom is working on that. As for what you call a spat, all I said was In light of what Barkeep49 posted, I'm uncomfortable with El_C dismissing Volunteer Marek's comments as false accusations, and I suspect ArbCom might find it useful if El_C were to explain why he regards it as not having been victim blaming.: [1]. The comments of Barkeep49 and VM to which I referred are those here: [2]. If that was either a "spat", or outside of scope, I'd like to know why. What that elicited from El_C was Tryptofish's provocations on cue, laughable, and par for the course, from: [3], and the sheer incompetence of their line of attack, from: [4]. Given that I did not "attack" El_C, but merely asked for an explanation of his reasoning for something in-scope and case-related that I found "uncomfortable", it seems to me that ArbCom needs to enforce the "Expected standards of behavior" given at the top of the Evidence page. answered--Tryptofish (talk) 20:13, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] At the top of this page, and as I said at the end of my previous reply The evidence talk page is for procedural questions. The comments you link to are on the Analysis page and they have a section for comments: this is not that section. It's also quite presumptuous of you, in a conversation where an arbitrator had already replied twice, to try and speak to our desires with I suspect ArbCom might find it useful. Yes, El_C's responses to that and following comments were not appropriate in tone. I believe you both to be smart enough and mature enough to know that when I say (1) stop it and (2) use this page as directed, that you (both) can make the proper corrections before I need to use other tools. — Wug·a·po·des 20:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] With regards to the Analysis page, El_C is correct that there's no stated word or diff limits. There were community comments at the beginning of the case that we should be more lenient with these limits in this case, so the thinking goes that word limits on the analysis page could disproportionately bind those doing a good job of providing analysis. You're right that we should think more about how that might be exploited as well. As for your question, "how is one even expected to engage" with lengthy and scattered commentary, I think there are some options. I remember going through the AA3 evidence and seeing you reply with something along the lines of "that's too much for me to adequately respond to, please do a better job condensing". Speaking as an arbitrator, I found those kinds of comments helpful. On this side of the evidence, it can be difficult to pin down filibustering or sealion-ing because it might just look like a normal discussion (or a normal flame war). Having someone say why a discussion broke down helps identify that more clearly later. So that's one option that I actually learned from you. As for the "scattered" issue, you could make multiple posts on multiple pages (which is probably the worst option), or you could make one comment where you quote from the scattered bits which helps unify the commentary. These are more workarounds than solutions, but I hope they're useful while we figure out what changes might be useful to this case structure going forward. (edit conflict) — Wug·a·po·des 18:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] (edit conflict) But how do you know it's 1,000 words, VM? And I don't want to engage in discourse that asks: How would YOU feel if someone threatened to rape your kids? And so on and so forth. I've pretty much given up on you grasping that: (1) This piece of evidence is not the sole basis for my calling for your previous EE TBAN to be reinstated — I also advocated for the same thing in the last arbitration case that was tragically declined. Because I feel you often go out of your way to be incendiary; consistently failing to conduct yourself dispassionately. Which drives users away — whether that's the actual goal, I dunno, but it is the reality. Again, context matters (as Wug notes above). And (2) That you continuously fail to understand that even reprehensible persons are afforded the rights and protections of WP:BLP. Despite you wanting to strip them of these, it doesn't work that way. As admins, we cannot pick and choose which persons receive protection under that policy — it apply to everyone. I also realize it's convenient to forget that I am the admin who helped you combat IW's harassment, possibly more than anyone else; that I am the admin who blocked more IW socks than possibly anyone else. Though it did provide an opening for Trypto's underhanded disparagement against myself, regardless of the sheer incompetence of their line of attack. Finally, I'll quote myself from the infamous Feb 2021 RSN thread where I had said to you: You well know how sympathetic I am (and consistently have been) to your devastating Icewhiz plight, but, I'm letting you know that using his specter as a blunt instrument, that's a problem. It's a problem when it distracts from a matter-of-fact discussion about content and it's a problem whenever it injects further hostility into the APL mix, for naught. Yet here we are again. You still think the abuse you suffered gives you special license to disregard a pivotal policy, like BLP (which has possible legal ramifications), but that is in fact not so. El_C 18:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] I'm sorry El_C but you haven't been paying attention to this topic area. I haven't been active in it for more than a year now, yet you write as if I had been editing it all along. You have also not been paying attention to who has actually been driven away. The only people that I can think of that have been genuinely "driven away" are some of the very editors targetted by Icewhiz and then by Grabowski and Klein. Speaking of "even reprehensible persons are afforded the rights and protections of WP:BLP how about you saunter over and take a look at recent history Wojciech Muszyński and Tadeusz Piotrowski and apply this "even reprehensible persons are afforded BLP etc etc etc". And yes this is relevant, because one of the things that I'm getting blamed for, by Icewhiz and Grabowski & Klein, is precisely insisting that BLP applies even to people one doesn't like. Now, even though I'm seeing some completely off-the-wall BLP violating nonsense going on, I'm not touching it with a 100 foot pole because... well, why should I? It's just gonna get presented as a diff against me and somebody will pretend that insisting on BLP policy makes me a "Polish nationalist". No thanks. I'm done here. Icewhiz or whoever can have their little attack pages against living people. I've done more than my share and got nothing but grief and harassment and false accusations and name calling for it. Volunteer Marek 19:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] Ignoring the questionable conduct issues between VM and El_C for a moment, I think it would be helpful for some clarification on WP:ASPERSIONS and whether it has WP:BLP implications. ARBCOM might want to consider whether this issue is relevant to the case when proposing a decision. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] [Q]uestionable conduct issues — I don't even know what that means... El_C 18:43, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] @Thebiguglyalien I think you have a very different sense of what the scope of this case is. We're going to be focused on "Conduct of named parties in the topic areas of World War II history of Poland and the history of the Jews in Poland, broadly construed". This is why I gave the answer I did about Icewhize and unless El C gets added as a party - and so far I am aware of zero evidence that would support such an action - his use of revdel is outside the scope of this case in my opinion. Perhaps other arbs will disagree but in that case it would happen at the proposed and final decision stages not on this page as @Tryptofish seems to want. This case already has a massive scope without getting into interesting but not directly pertinent policy and guideline questions. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:14, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] As for what I seem to want, let me be clear about what I actually do want. I asked El_C to clarify something he said. ~~And I want ArbCom to make it clear that El_C's personal attacks on me are inappropriate.~~ answered --Tryptofish (talk) 20:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] I'll echo the concerns that were widely agreed upon during the case request and say that its scope is basically artificial. It doesn't actually address any particular issue or action, and it just comes across as damage control after two people took advantage of their positions in academia to engage in an on-wiki dispute while bypassing our dispute resolution process. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:22, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] Sorry, but this is not working out for me. First, we have Trypto having followed me here, with the aim of presenting me in the worst possible light — make no mistake, this is a product of an unrelated recent dispute (bitter dispute) involving the two of us. I fully expect more of the same from them to occur elsewhere (or even in this arbitration proceeding again) in the near future. Secondly, though less critically but also not great, is Thebiguglyalien making vague, and I would argue also false, assertions concerning "damage control," and so on. I contend that these are distractions that work against clarity here, for this section's subject. So I'm gonna take a break from this, and if I return, hopefully there'll be less of either, but especially, I'm hoping that any further attempts by Trypto to target me when they think I'm vulnerable, will wait for a different venue (i.e. not this arbitration case). signing off El_C 21:45, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] This puts me in an awkward position, as I already struck through the parts that an Arb indicated I ought to and I would have preferred to have left it at that, and it appears that I did so unilaterally. No, I did not come to this discussion from here: [5]. I came from here: [6]. I've been following this case from the start, as an interested member of the community, and there is zero evidence that I have been following El_C anywhere else, because I haven't. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] The only section Trypto had participated in here is the one involving my evidence. This is not a coincidence. Neither is their attempt to paint me in the worst possible light a coincidence. And there was nothing for them of me to follow as I've been away for months, only having returned in early March. No amount of mental gymnastics can disguise this. Now, if I can leave this page without having to engage them for the time being — that would be ideal. El_C 22:23, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] Do I need to say that the Arbs have already said that we should drop this, that this is the wrong place to pursue it? If you want to accuse me of harassing you, there is ANI, but not here. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural questions resolved, discussion of evidence and such can continue on main case pages. — Wug·a·po·des 23:17, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I was not at all aware of what VM wrote about, I did not know what Icewhiz resorted to. For me, it completely changes the optics of the whole issue, it puts Icewhiz, the people defending him, the G&K article in a completely different light. I imagine that most users not familiar with the case then have similar feelings. Personally, it takes away my interest to edit articles in this topic, or on Wikipedia in general.

I imagine the admins have the ability to verify what was said, but it seems to me that in light of what @Volunteer Marek wrote, the "violated WP:BLPCRIME using shocking language" allegation made by @El C should be removed. Because to an outsider who doesn't know the context, it sounds very different than to a person like me who has learned the context. Marcelus (talk) 19:38, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It seems reasonable to wait for El C to see Special:Diff/1144789105 and to re-evaluate the situation themselves based on this information. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:48, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Icewhiz is not a party to this case. Icewhiz's conduct has been evaluated and, in what is a huge understatement, he is wholly and completely incompatible with being a Wikipedian. We do not in anyway need to evaluate that. What we do need to evaluate if any of the named parties have had conduct which violate our policies and guidelines (and at least for this first week evidence of editors who should be added as parties). That is what evidence should focus on. So extensive discussion of IW will ultimately be just as out of scope as discussing any other non-party editor. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:51, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't entirely agree. I do think that the focus should be on recent ("post-Icewhiz") activity in this topic area. But whether we like it or not, Icewhiz's fingerprints are all over this topic area and the lead up to this specific case. His actions and the surrounding events are directly linked to and provide necessary context for the issues that this case will address. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:01, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am well aware of the death threats, etc., as for over a year I was pretty much the sole admin who dealt with these on a regular basis. My emails with VM number in the dozens, with many perhaps most, concerning this. But just to put the bluster of falsely accusing me of "victim blaming" (a favourite of some as of late) into context — this concerns threats of violence against minors, specifically (how that is phrased). As mentioned, if ArbCom wants to give VM permission to state it like that on the project, wherever, whenever, I suppose that would be their prerogative. But I'd submit, Barkeep49, that it'd be simplest to start with just by undeleting it. Anyway, regardless, I can take a hint, so I'll leave you all to it. El_C 20:25, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In light of what Barkeep49 posted, I'm uncomfortable with El_C dismissing Volunteer Marek's comments as false accusations, and ~~I suspect ArbCom might find it useful~~ I would appreciate it if El_C were to explain why he regards it as not having been victim blaming. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:02, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This comment only speaks for myself and I have not discussed it with any other arb or the committee. @El C, I think your interpretation of our BLP policy is correct and the idea that it only applies to article topics is at odds with the policy. I don't think you should take as a hint that we want you to leave us. If we'd wanted to hint at that we would have removed or hatted the commentary, not summarized it and posted it for discussion. I think you could potentially have knowledge of a lot of pertinent evidence for this case and hope you, and other admins who've worked the area, will help provide evidence about what's happened. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:12, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Barkeep49, so are you going to undelete it? Anyway, I've been prevented from advancing the point that both VM and GCB should have been on their best behaviour in the last few weeks, especially, due to this impending case; that the evidence I presented be viewed in that context. The forcing of no context has shaken my faith in these proceedings. As for Tryptofish's provocations on cue (which are ultimately a distraction): I never dismissed the accusation as false. And their view that I should prove a negative, as in ArbCom might find it useful if El_C were to explain why he regards it as not having been victim blaming — is, to borrow a word, laughable. But also par for the course, so no surprise there. El_C 21:46, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a partially redacted version of the rev-del-ed edit could be made public. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:56, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

El_C I agree that your main point is when these happened not just that they happened, and I can see how the evidence-analysis split makes it harder to point that out. I've added to the evidence summary some more context in hopes of better articulating that point. Personally, I think the analysis page is a good location for a lot of your thoughts: they're more persistent than the evidence page (where it may get summarized and collapsed), and it makes commentary easier to follow than on the evidence page. If you still think the cons outweigh the pros, that's useful feedback; we're still trying this new workflow, so it's good to know what works and what doesn't for participants. — Wug·a·po·des 07:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wug, but it has no word limit. How is one even expected to engage VM's "analysis" (to borrow from his own El_C's "evidence") when it's that lengthy and that scattered? The page's somewhat free-for-all format strikes me as problematic and prone to filibustering. El_C 07:33, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:El_C, there is a word limit. It's 1000 words. My "analysis" or "evidence" or whatever it's supposed to be called was around 950 words. And it didn't exceed the "diff limit" either. It is not scattered. It is here where it was moved to. You can engage it there. I've made only a few comments/evidence presentations here so far so I am most definetly not "filibustering" anything. Volunteer Marek 17:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've waited a day to see what replies might come from Arbs before saying this. It seems to me to be settled that El_C's use of rev-del was according to policy and that whatever BLP considerations went into that use have been endorsed by ArbCom. There is a separate and significant issue of whether Volunteer Marek was subjected to severe harassment, and that also seems to be settled that he was. So the remaining issue, which cannot be evaluated by those of us who cannot see the rev-del-ed edit, is to what degree Volunteer Marek was entitled to comment on that harassment, and to what degree it was a failure to maintain the expected good behvior at this point in time. I still do think that ArbCom could either give a partially redacted version of the edit, or a partially redacted summary of what was salient about it, and it would be helpful to do so. I find some of El_C's comments to me just above to have been unprovoked and incompatible with ArbCom's stated rules of decorum on case pages. I'll note: the bluster of falsely accusing me of "victim blaming" followed by I never dismissed the accusation as false. Also, I never asked El_C to prove a negative, because I never asked him to prove anything – just to explain his reasoning. answered --Tryptofish (talk) 18:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It said the same thing that I later wrote in my evidence submission, just more succinctly. Volunteer Marek 19:21, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think endorsed by ArbCom is probably too strong. I'm just guessing here, but I doubt most arbs have seen this conversation. My position, to be completely clear, is that the use of revision deletion was reasonable, but not so unambiguous that we can pick from the two extremes of "unlimited posting" and "redact on sight". Honestly, the wording of the cited section is more confusing than helpful for me in this situation. If you want the committee to come to a nuanced position on how WP:BLPCRIME applies to on-wiki allegations about misconduct by another editor, a discussion and decision like that is not going to be done on the timescale of hours; even then I'd vastly prefer a community discussion on what to me seems like largely a policy question.

A partially redacted version is already available. See User talk:Gitz6666 (permalink).

As for the spat between you and El_C, how about we call it here, eh? I'm still trying to work through Ealdgyth's evidence regarding conduct in articles specifically regarding sourcing; some might recall that as being a major point for this case. As it stands, I'm not particularly interested in moderating a debate between two people who aren't even parties regarding what can be said about a third person who also is not a party. As the banner at the top says, this page is for procedural questions and we seem to be quickly losing sight of that. — Wug·a·po·des 19:16, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that your clarification here is plenty nuanced, and I thank you for clarifying that. For the partially redacted version, I see that the central part is Yeah, well, I never threated (Redacted) so right there there's one small difference between me and Icewhiz., which occurs during a discussion where Volunteer Marek is talking about the harassment by Icewhiz. Obviously, those of us who don't see the redacted part have no way to assess what it was or how strong or weak it is as evidence of anything potentially sanctionable by ArbCom – but I'm going to trust that ArbCom is working on that.

As for what you call a spat, all I said was In light of what Barkeep49 posted, I'm uncomfortable with El_C dismissing Volunteer Marek's comments as false accusations, and I suspect ArbCom might find it useful if El_C were to explain why he regards it as not having been victim blaming.: [1]. The comments of Barkeep49 and VM to which I referred are those here: [2]. If that was either a "spat", or outside of scope, I'd like to know why.

What that elicited from El_C was Tryptofish's provocations on cue, laughable, and par for the course, from: [3], and the sheer incompetence of their line of attack, from: [4]. Given that I did not "attack" El_C, but merely asked for an explanation of his reasoning for something in-scope and case-related that I found "uncomfortable", it seems to me that ArbCom needs to enforce the "Expected standards of behavior" given at the top of the Evidence page. answered--Tryptofish (talk) 20:13, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

At the top of this page, and as I said at the end of my previous reply The evidence talk page is for procedural questions. The comments you link to are on the Analysis page and they have a section for comments: this is not that section. It's also quite presumptuous of you, in a conversation where an arbitrator had already replied twice, to try and speak to our desires with I suspect ArbCom might find it useful.

Yes, El_C's responses to that and following comments were not appropriate in tone. I believe you both to be smart enough and mature enough to know that when I say (1) stop it and (2) use this page as directed, that you (both) can make the proper corrections before I need to use other tools. — Wug·a·po·des 20:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

With regards to the Analysis page, El_C is correct that there's no stated word or diff limits. There were community comments at the beginning of the case that we should be more lenient with these limits in this case, so the thinking goes that word limits on the analysis page could disproportionately bind those doing a good job of providing analysis. You're right that we should think more about how that might be exploited as well. As for your question, "how is one even expected to engage" with lengthy and scattered commentary, I think there are some options. I remember going through the AA3 evidence and seeing you reply with something along the lines of "that's too much for me to adequately respond to, please do a better job condensing". Speaking as an arbitrator, I found those kinds of comments helpful. On this side of the evidence, it can be difficult to pin down filibustering or sealion-ing because it might just look like a normal discussion (or a normal flame war). Having someone say why a discussion broke down helps identify that more clearly later. So that's one option that I actually learned from you. As for the "scattered" issue, you could make multiple posts on multiple pages (which is probably the worst option), or you could make one comment where you quote from the scattered bits which helps unify the commentary. These are more workarounds than solutions, but I hope they're useful while we figure out what changes might be useful to this case structure going forward. (edit conflict) — Wug·a·po·des 18:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) But how do you know it's 1,000 words, VM? And I don't want to engage in discourse that asks: How would YOU feel if someone threatened to rape your kids? And so on and so forth. I've pretty much given up on you grasping that: (1) This piece of evidence is not the sole basis for my calling for your previous EE TBAN to be reinstated — I also advocated for the same thing in the last arbitration case that was tragically declined. Because I feel you often go out of your way to be incendiary; consistently failing to conduct yourself dispassionately. Which drives users away — whether that's the actual goal, I dunno, but it is the reality. Again, context matters (as Wug notes above).

And (2) That you continuously fail to understand that even reprehensible persons are afforded the rights and protections of WP:BLP. Despite you wanting to strip them of these, it doesn't work that way. As admins, we cannot pick and choose which persons receive protection under that policy — it apply to everyone. I also realize it's convenient to forget that I am the admin who helped you combat IW's harassment, possibly more than anyone else; that I am the admin who blocked more IW socks than possibly anyone else. Though it did provide an opening for Trypto's underhanded disparagement against myself, regardless of the sheer incompetence of their line of attack.

Finally, I'll quote myself from the infamous Feb 2021 RSN thread where I had said to you: You well know how sympathetic I am (and consistently have been) to your devastating Icewhiz plight, but, I'm letting you know that using his specter as a blunt instrument, that's a problem. It's a problem when it distracts from a matter-of-fact discussion about content and it's a problem whenever it injects further hostility into the APL mix, for naught. Yet here we are again. You still think the abuse you suffered gives you special license to disregard a pivotal policy, like BLP (which has possible legal ramifications), but that is in fact not so. El_C 18:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry El_C but you haven't been paying attention to this topic area. I haven't been active in it for more than a year now, yet you write as if I had been editing it all along.

You have also not been paying attention to who has actually been driven away. The only people that I can think of that have been genuinely "driven away" are some of the very editors targetted by Icewhiz and then by Grabowski and Klein.

Speaking of "even reprehensible persons are afforded the rights and protections of WP:BLP how about you saunter over and take a look at recent history Wojciech Muszyński and Tadeusz Piotrowski and apply this "even reprehensible persons are afforded BLP etc etc etc". And yes this is relevant, because one of the things that I'm getting blamed for, by Icewhiz and Grabowski & Klein, is precisely insisting that BLP applies even to people one doesn't like. Now, even though I'm seeing some completely off-the-wall BLP violating nonsense going on, I'm not touching it with a 100 foot pole because... well, why should I? It's just gonna get presented as a diff against me and somebody will pretend that insisting on BLP policy makes me a "Polish nationalist". No thanks. I'm done here. Icewhiz or whoever can have their little attack pages against living people. I've done more than my share and got nothing but grief and harassment and false accusations and name calling for it. Volunteer Marek 19:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ignoring the questionable conduct issues between VM and El_C for a moment, I think it would be helpful for some clarification on WP:ASPERSIONS and whether it has WP:BLP implications. ARBCOM might want to consider whether this issue is relevant to the case when proposing a decision. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[Q]uestionable conduct issues — I don't even know what that means... El_C 18:43, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Thebiguglyalien I think you have a very different sense of what the scope of this case is. We're going to be focused on "Conduct of named parties in the topic areas of World War II history of Poland and the history of the Jews in Poland, broadly construed". This is why I gave the answer I did about Icewhize and unless El C gets added as a party - and so far I am aware of zero evidence that would support such an action - his use of revdel is outside the scope of this case in my opinion. Perhaps other arbs will disagree but in that case it would happen at the proposed and final decision stages not on this page as @Tryptofish seems to want. This case already has a massive scope without getting into interesting but not directly pertinent policy and guideline questions. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:14, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As for what I seem to want, let me be clear about what I actually do want. I asked El_C to clarify something he said. ~~And I want ArbCom to make it clear that El_C's personal attacks on me are inappropriate.~~ answered --Tryptofish (talk) 20:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll echo the concerns that were widely agreed upon during the case request and say that its scope is basically artificial. It doesn't actually address any particular issue or action, and it just comes across as damage control after two people took advantage of their positions in academia to engage in an on-wiki dispute while bypassing our dispute resolution process. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:22, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but this is not working out for me. First, we have Trypto having followed me here, with the aim of presenting me in the worst possible light — make no mistake, this is a product of an unrelated recent dispute (bitter dispute) involving the two of us. I fully expect more of the same from them to occur elsewhere (or even in this arbitration proceeding again) in the near future.

Secondly, though less critically but also not great, is Thebiguglyalien making vague, and I would argue also false, assertions concerning "damage control," and so on. I contend that these are distractions that work against clarity here, for this section's subject.

So I'm gonna take a break from this, and if I return, hopefully there'll be less of either, but especially, I'm hoping that any further attempts by Trypto to target me when they think I'm vulnerable, will wait for a different venue (i.e. not this arbitration case). *signing off* El_C 21:45, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This puts me in an awkward position, as I already struck through the parts that an Arb indicated I ought to and I would have preferred to have left it at that, and it appears that I did so unilaterally. No, I did not come to this discussion from here: [5]. I came from here: [6]. I've been following this case from the start, as an interested member of the community, and there is zero evidence that I have been following El_C anywhere else, because I haven't. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The only section Trypto had participated in here is the one involving my evidence. This is not a coincidence. Neither is their attempt to paint me in the worst possible light a coincidence. And there was nothing for them of me to follow as I've been away for months, only having returned in early March. No amount of mental gymnastics can disguise this. Now, if I can leave this page without having to engage them for the time being — that would be ideal. El_C 22:23, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do I need to say that the Arbs have already said that we should drop this, that this is the wrong place to pursue it? If you want to accuse me of harassing you, there is ANI, but not here. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

People who are perceived as taking Icewhiz's POV are accused of being socks or proxies

Moved from Special:PermaLink/1144839964#Evidence presented by Clovermoss

I'm not really involved in the content area and I don't have any expertise. Initially, I planned not to comment here, but I notice that my edit at the case request has since been revdelled. I doubt that action was taken because of what I said. So I wanted to point out a few things even if they're somewhat tangential so the average person can actually read them. [7] and [8] by GizzyCatBella. This edit by Nableezy seems to indicate that this is a prexisting issue in the topic area.[9] There's also this more recent edit by VolunteerMarek at a Signpost talk page [10]. As I said at the case request, I'm sure this area actually is rife with sockpuppets but that doesn't mean everyone who agrees about something is one. I've also seen comments implying that Icewhiz was directly involved in the authorship of the journal article we're all talking about. As an uninvolved bystander, this sounds absurd. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 09:57, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have since noticed that it's only the diff that was revdelled and my statement is still present at the case request. I'd like to apologize to ToBeFree for not reading their response more thoroughly. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:39, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There was a request on my talk page to provide more context in the how I think this applies to the case. Honestly, I'm not sure even if my observations are all that relevant (feel free to ultimately ignore if they are). I've had Levivich's talk page on my watchlist for years, so I've seen some interactions that have left me with unease. I've seen comments that imply Levivich edited under a different account or has some sort of association with Icewhiz (both on his talk page and elsewhere) from parties in this case. I'd imagine that if you're already editing in a tense topic area, it isn't really that great from a collaborative perspective to constantly feel like you're inherently not someone to be trusted. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:31, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clovermoss, no worries.

~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence of what? & suggestions

The central issue of the case seems to be an allegation that an entire set of articles is biased, possibly deliberately although I don’t know how you can ascribe “deliberate” behavior to a herd of cats. “Evidence” typically is of alleged conduct issues that are the subject of the case, but on the main topic none have been defined.

Wikipedia is influential. Contentious topics are all where there is a real world contest where the “sides” see leaning the Wikipedia towards their view as a way to further their view or cause. Wikipedia policies and guidelines enable, allow and reward this POV pushing as long as it is done in a Wiki-savvy way. And such is common.

If this proceeds along the normal arbcom lines, the most likely outcome is a finding that there are no arbcom-level conduct violations, which may be a useful finding. Or a misfire of sanctioning people who don’t deserve it due to a SOP of finding somebody to blame. Meanwhile Arbcom is stuck with the usual eternal problem on contentious articles, and/or no resolution on this issue. Since Arbcom is not in a position to make the necessary policy and guideline changes to help the problem, it can look like a dilemma.

IMO there is a way to make some genuine progress. You’d need to work creatively on the edges of what’s in policies and guidelines. And since you’d be doing so, the understanding would be that you’d be providing findings and guidance, not sanctions. This would be to review by a standard that editors should be guided by the concept that their highest and only priority when editing should be to create quality articles that follow the general goals of Wikipedia. And so not by other outside POV’s. Outside POV-tilted editing goes against this principle.

In that case an item being reviewed could be whether or not folks are following that principle. In order to get this sorted out (vs. just forcing folks to just dig in defensively) and acknowledging that it’s a bit creative, you should state at the start that any determinations against this standard would be findings and guidance, not sanctions.

There was also some discussion of some potential partial outing or doxing issues. This is an important and serious conduct area. It appears that this may involve “changing the degree off publicness” type issues in which case handling the issue publicly would further the harm to any victims. A good start there would be to say that any evidence regarding this should be provided in private. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:47, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to express that the issue at hand relates to "conflict of interest" with "facts being subjective."

Real "evidence" (and this might be true on a variety of topics being edited mono-culturally {a focus in on one topic set} from dinosaurs, to women scientists, and to Nazi Hunting on Wikipedia) is that a single individual or group of individuals can dominate topics which as a result are not subject to consensus building, vetting, or proper weighting.

Conflict of Interests may lead to issue framing and the setting of narratives. Where an area of editing is dominated by a few individuals there are effectively no controls, checks, and balances to validate content, assure it is weighted correctly, and is neutral.

Going a step further notice boards (and longstanding social relationships) destroy both new participation on the platform and the factual input of information that deviates from the narrative being set by the people who "own" the subject matter.

It's my opinion, that searching for "diffs" won't accomplish anything as the topic speaks to "alternate facts." The real question is whether or not a group of individuals are dominating a set of topics and therefore setting a narrative.

What would provide usable evidence would be a study of the edit histories of the accused to identify the range of topics edited and the extent to which the notice board process has been used or misused.

The issue at hand is "conflict of interest" and the proper course of action would be a wide-ranging topic ban.

(I would appreciate it if this comment was not reverted or subject to retaliation) Flibbertigibbets (talk) 00:04, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the response. Regarding your "a group of individuals are dominating a set of topics and therefore setting a narrative" that is basically a sum of individual POV editors/editing and is (unfortunately) commonplace and accepted as long as it is done in a wiki-clever way. IMO that means it would be unfair to sanction people for doing it, if just that. But my suggested middle ground is to make findings to identify that behavior and provide guidance to stop it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:07, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All current versions of these pages reflect WP:Consensus. Yes, there is a general issue that I saw in all subject areas: WP:CONSENSUS may override WP:NPOV during RfCs and other discussions, even though NPOV is the most important rule. How this can be fixed short of creating editorial boards? I have no idea. My very best wishes (talk) 17:19, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd quibble and add a note on your first sentence. A "Consensus" in the context of your usage is a sort of supermajority (yes, I know it's not a vote) and certainly not everything in the articles has received that. Second, even actual consensuses on article can be badly flawed in our easily gameable processes and rules. We have editorial boards which is groups of editors at articles but gaming of/ gamed rules overrides those types of of deliberations. The answer is to fix the rules which is beyond the purview of Arbcom. My idea was to suggest something that Arbcom can probably do. North8000 (talk)

My understanding of WP:Consensus is a little different, i.e. it says: "Wikipedia consensus usually occurs implicitly. An edit has presumed consensus until it is disputed or reverted." and so on. Hence, if someone made an edit, it did not cause anyone's objections, and it stays for a long time in the article - that would be current consensus. No majority required. If an edit causes objections, then it became a matter of discussion, dispute resolution and so on. But again, however this might be resolved, it will become new consensus. Perhaps this policy should be changed? Yes, maybe. If Arbs could suggest something, that would be great, I agree. My very best wishes (talk) 18:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct. Which is why I calibrated my statement with "in the context of your usage" (I should have said "in the context of my impression of your usage"). North8000 18:35, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It does happen in all subject areas that several like-minded contributors dominate content disputes. One could say they make de facto editorial boards. Someone who does not like it could call them a "tag-team", "a group of distortionists" or whatever else appears in Wikipedia:Assume bad faith. Someone could say this is a natural behavior of people in such editing environment. This is just a general comment; I do not imply guilt by anyone specific. My very best wishes (talk) 19:00, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Its only a problem in a select few topic areas and its a problem which the community is working hard to address (including through this current discussion). Its not a natural behavior, its disruptive and juvenile (cliques are just as damaging here as in the 5th grade lunchroom). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:04, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have to disagree. I saw such "groups" in every subject area, including physics and biology. Are they problem or solution? If you happened to disagree with them, then yes, that's a "problem" from your personal perspective. But if you usually agree with them, this is a "solution". And no, they are not "cliques as in a lunchroom". Everyone of them is typically an educated and independent contributor. They just had happen to have common interests, read same books, have a similar background and therefore generally agree on something, after short discussion. In that case, this is probably just a common interest in Polish history. My very best wishes (talk) 19:16, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

IMO they're always a problem, even when they agree with me or when I am arguably part of that clique. Even if you think they're a necessary evil at the moment you must agree that they aren't something we should tolerate in the long term. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:19, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you are not going to tolerate the groups of productive collaborators in the project, this is very bad. We must encourage collaboration in the project, not discourage it. My very best wishes (talk) 19:31, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The problem isn't with the collaboration, the problem is with the domination and thats a problem restricted to minority of topic areas. Domination is not collaboration, its pretty much the opposite. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Before this gets into an argument, I think it should be pointed out that both of you seem to be talking about two very different things. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:39, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing that out, I'm not sure I see what you see but it would make sense for us to be be talking about two very different things because what My very best wishes is saying doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:46, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The only official guideline applicable here is Wikipedia:Canvassing, and of course we have WP:Consensus. Did particular contributors (or an alleged "group" of contributors) violate these rules? My very best wishes (talk) 19:55, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I must have missed something, can you link where it was established that WP:Canvassing was the only official guideline which was applicable here? As far as I can tell nobody has even mentioned it up until this point. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:01, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

These are guidelines most relevant to people working in "groups". Let me rephrase. Did contributors X,Y,Z clearly violate any WP rules? If they did not, they are just productive collaborators. If they did, that needs to be judged on a case to case basis. Simply being systematically in agreement about something is NOT a proof of any wrongdoing, maybe just an opposite. G&K think this is a proof of wrongdoing. My very best wishes (talk) 20:15, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Productive editors do not dominate topic areas... They do the opposite, they invite others in to participate and instead of pushing newcomers out of a topic area they welcome them in. Productive editors in general want more participation in their topic area from other editors, not less, even if that means that their own contributions will be less prominent (I would be absolutely ecstatic for example if someone completely obliterated my overwhelming majority authorship of Maritime industries of Taiwan by quintupling the size of that article). Perhaps this has gotten too philosophical, I will digress here unless you feel that there is a pressing need to continue. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:24, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, someone saying "Get out of here and don't come back!" would be clearly problematic. My very best wishes (talk) 21:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That does appear to have been the effect of what has occurred in this topic area. If extremely reasonable long term editors share feelings like these[11][12] we clearly have a problem, right? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:47, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, I do not think these two diffs mean a lot by themselves. I do not know anything on this subject. Apparently, two participant have expressed dissatisfaction three years ago. But maybe they were on the wrong side of the dispute and did not check some sources? This is frequently happen with me in areas where I am not an expert. Or maybe that was just a typical content dispute? I have no idea. If these people still think there is a serious problem and come forward with evidence, then perhaps Arbcom will consider their diffs with explanations. My very best wishes (talk) 01:03, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And speaking in general, not about these two contributors, saying "what a hell, I am out of here!" is not helpful for improving content, although totally OK because no one has an obligation to participate in anything. But this is not a proof of wrongdoing by another side in a content dispute. My very best wishes (talk) 01:17, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

AS mentioned many editors concentrate on topics that interest them; Say dinosaurs - there is some point where editing dinosaurs to exclusion (individually or in a group) could become ownership of the topic and somewhere beyond that resides conflict of interest.

Because of the subject matter, the parties accused in the arbitration may be "more vulnerable" than editors who concentrate exclusively into areas that are perceived as being laudable. The approach taken to address this issue needs to be uniform across all topics and all users.

It was mentioned that the process of editing might allow (or even encourage) the type of editing that occurred in this case.

Therefore, The issue really relates to process which in turn means that a change to Wikipedia's rules and operating procedures may be needed. This might be a "big ask" but it might be the right thing to do.

Flibbertigibbets (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we need to change anything, this is why topic bans exist... For when an editor is disruptive within a specific topic area but not in other topic areas. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:32, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did Icewhiz canvass? Xx236 (talk) 10:48, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have been topic banned. The result is that I was not allowed to finish my edits and the subject has been ignored by other editors since 2018, which is just used as a prove of my bias in 2018. I have included my source, a 42 pages long paper by the Jan Grabowski, but I did not summarize it and noone has since 2018. WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World War II and the history of Jews in Poland/Evidence#Evidence presented by Ealdgyth

Generally people are emotionally involved in their work. This Wikipedia prefers people uninvolved, which may support psychpats, ignorants, paid editors. The other problem is cultural. Some cultures control emothions more than other ones. Multiculturalism has to coordinate the two types of cultures rather than prefer the cold West and exclude warm South (generally speaking).

We have here cases of Westplaining, people from eg. Australia explain what is to be enslaved, murdered, to live on ashes of millions. Further topic bans will make Innuits editing pages about surfing and Beduins editing types of snow. Referenced sources belong to certain cultures. An American may misunderstand an European article and vice versa, even if both are written in English. People study history, to understand historical sources. Any text is such source and should be critically evaluated. One needs some education to understand the problem.

Xx236 (talk) 10:40, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are thousands of articles with this same problem. This set just happened to receive a very thorough analysis from outside of Wikipedia. And the cause is not editors violating our policies and guidelines, it is from editors USING our policies and guidelines. Which enable, allow and reward this type of activity. The big fix would be to fix the policies and guidelines. The "medium level" fix (which I encouraged Arbcom to do here) would be findings and "soft" enforcement of the concept that when we edit here, we leave everything else at the door and just strive to create quality, informative articles. North8000 (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments presented by Volunteer Marek

Moved from Special:Permalink/1144841678#Evidence presented by Volunteer Marek

@Clovermoss - I did not accuse the person of being a sock puppet or proxy. I said they were involved. I will post evidence relating to sock puppets etc (other users/accounts) later.

It’s also noteworthy that all evidence presented so far, except for Ealdgyth, is about “what happened after the publication of the paper” rather than anything prior to it.

(and "you posted too many diffs at AE so you should be topic banned"... seriously?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Volunteer Marek (talk • contribs) 16:26, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Courtesy ping to Clovermoss as it was not present in the original post. Primefac (talk) 21:48, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Date ranges and context

I am sorry if this has been addressed, though my knowledge on arbcom processes is limited and I wanted to clarify a few things. What are the relevant date ranges here? Are we allowed to submit evidence from 2021, as long as it is relevant to this case? Are past diffs of exchanges which pertain to to this case valid even if they had—at any point—included responses from banned/no longer active users who had been previously sanctioned in "Holocaust in Poland," broadly construed? For example: let's say there is a diff that seems pertinent to this case, but it is selected from a longer exchange that also includes a response from an editor who had been globally blocked as a result of previous arbcom; would that in and of itself invalidate the evidence? Thanks. Ppt91 ^talk 17:22, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ppt91, please see the FAQ where your question is answered. Izno (talk) 20:04, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Izno Thanks and my apologies. I completely missed it. It's all clear now. Ppt91 ^talk 20:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Discussing the G&K article

It seems that both the article in general and the article in the context of a specific claim have been removed from the evidence page. Where is the appropriate place to present the argument made in the article as a relevant factor and to explain how it's relevant to disputants in this area? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:45, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A handy rule of thumb: if your claims reference a specific line or page of the article with citation, we will likely consider them; if your claims are unspecified or about the article as a whole, we are unlikely to consider them. W.r.t. the linked diffs: (1) we know and are considering the article, you don't need to tell us about it, (2) we know that the authors know about Wikipedia, but we can't compel people to participate let alone control the press so it's not clear what the point of that submission even is. — Wug·a·po·des 19:44, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They did participate. That's what the article is evidence of. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:23, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize for splitting this reply in two places but this is actually the better place for me to make the point I tried to make above. The Arbitration Committee discussed this topic at great length. And we came to a compromise. That compromise was this publicly debated and voted on motion. That decision has been made. You do not have to like it - this is one of those compromises that left me very unhappy as the person who drafted it - but do need to understand that attempts to redebate this are unlikely to accomplish much. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:33, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49 Technical query: is your link above to "this publicly debated and voted on motion" correct? I don't think it shows what you wanted it to show (or at least I am uttery confused in what I am seeing). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:38, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're right @[[User:Piotrus|Piotrus]. The link should be to the Chapmansh section when you scroll. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:20, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Scope questions

First of all, could someone let me know if the format of what I just posted is acceptable. I would appreciate feed back before I say anything else

Second, with respect to editors in the topic area who are not named parties, I would appreciate some feedback on what is considered sufficient evidence to add someone as a party. I have two such cases in mind. In one, the behaviour is recent. In the other the behaviour I noted is *not* recent and I do not know anything about that editor's current behaviour. They do appear to be an active account though.

Third, I actually encountered most of the named parties, the ones that that I know, in the somewhat-overlapping topic area of the current war in Ukraine. The exception is Piotrus, whom I first met at WP:PNT. Some things that happened with articles about Ukraine may be relevant to a pattern of editing for some named parties, and possibly to explaining and/or mitigating some behaviour of other parties. But I realize that this is a big scope creep. Elinruby (talk) 08:25, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Going to just answer your second question for now: both kinds are appropriate. The more recent evidence is more likely to be compelling but if someone else were to show that the older evidence is part of a pattern that is compelling in its own way. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:22, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok thank you. I realize the third question in particular is difficult and will accept whatever the decision is. As to the first, I am just leery of repeating any format mistakes but events have kind of overtaken this question and I will be asking to add a party who has recently edited. I will be happy to reformat later if asked. Elinruby (talk) 15:54, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So having had a bit more time to look into this, I would say your format and style is definitely acceptable. We're trying to be incredibly neutral with our summaries so, as the FAQ gives the example of, we're less likely to use edit warring than some other wording but it works. Some of that might get moved to analysis but nothing is out of order from what I see (though when I or another arb/clerk goes to do the actually summary perhaps something else will be found).

As for Ukraine, we're not examining the named parties contributions to the whole project, just to the topic areas of World War II history of Poland and the history of the Jews in Poland, broadly construed, which as has been noted is already a very large scope. If at the end of this case there is a broader case to be made of editor misconduct that the community has been unable to handle a new case request could be filed that focused on a broader conduct examination across all of the project. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:29, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A procedural question

I have no any diffs/evidence implying guilt by any listed parties in this subject area. However, I can see that several contributors provided evidence that addresses content issues related to the case. Two questions.

Would such content evidence (similar to that by Ealdgyth) be acceptable?
Something can be provided in the following form: "[a statement from article by G&K] - a comment". Would that be helpful or acceptable? My very best wishes (talk) 16:20, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]