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Concerning the recent undiscussed name change from "Portal:Lists of basic topics" to "Portal:Basic topics"...
This isn't a portal about basic topics. It is a list of lists of basic topics on their respective subjects. Most subjects could have a list of basic topics. Nuclear technology for instance isn't a basic topic itself, but for newbies to the field, there's the List of basic nuclear technology topics - it has topics that are basic with respect to the subject of nuclear technology.
If the portal was to be renamed "Portal:Basic topics", the context would be changed, and many of the entries would no longer fit under the title. Also, articles that aren't lists would fit the title. But this is specifically a list of lists. It presents lists of basic topics.
First, thank you for your observation. Thinking through these issues is very important. Of the examples you provided, "World" falls under geography, "world development" falls under science, "life" goes in biology, "meaning of life" belongs to philosophy, "universe" is an astronomy subject, and "humanity" falls under social science. I don't see need for a "general" subject category as the subject areas provided cover everything - and the list is open to expansion for the addition of new subheadings in each section (e.g., "countries" is a new subsection of the Geography section). Also, if any of the examples you've provided fall under more than one subject area, there is no reason that they can't be listed twice. Psychology is listed twice, for example. The Transhumanist00:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
They're all incomplete, and could use your discerning contributions. You could probably easily spot missing items which I missed! The Transhumanist00:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Major rename proposal of certain "lists" to "outlines"
The entire set was renamed by consensus at the Village pump, but I'm not sure what to do about this conflict. How is consensus applied in this situation?
No - as you have seen - three editors have complained about the poor use of English here. I suggest arranging a centralized discussion so these articles can be suitably renamed. This should be an easy enough matter to deal with. --Kleinzach 08:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC) P.S. As far as I can see only two editors supported this name change at the Village Pump. --Kleinzach08:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
May I ask what 'Topical' means here? The three meanings I am familiar with are (1) applied on the skin, (2) of current interest and (3) of topics. If, as I assume, it's either (2) or (3) this begs a second question. Should we be using an ambiguous title? --Kleinzach06:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Until a new one is decided upon, yes. The consensus at the Village pump was that "basic topics" was a problem. If you can come up with a better alternative than "topical outlines", I'd sure be interested. By the way, a major collaboration to complete a topical outline for every country of the World shall be taking place starting on July 15th, and I plan on presenting a proposal at the Village pump to simplify titles of the pages in the set to "Outline of" once those are completed.
The whole hierarchy of Portal:Contents/Topical outlines was cut-and-paste moved to Portal:Contents/Lists of basic topics. This is not how pages should be moved. Instead, we should use the "move" function so that the history is preserved. If there is an obstruction (as there appears to have been in some cases), it can be cleared out by a request to WP:RM.
I have nothing against these "outlines" as long as they remain unambiguously an indexing effort restricted to Portal:Contents/ subpages.
There has been a flurry of recent moves of such outline pages into main article namespace (see Category:Outlines). This is not acceptable under WP:CFORK as it blurs the line between "Contents" indexing and full encyclopedic articles. Please move these pages back under Portal:Contents/ as soon as possible. --dab(𒁳)11:57, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
There are a few problems, and many past discussions, about where these pages belong. The only 2 I can remember without more coffee/time, are:
The portal namespace is not included in our site search (and cannot be, because the profusion of subpages makes searching portal-namespace painful) hence moving indexes there makes them partially invisible to the readers (unless we scatter links to the outlines everywhere).
Hopefully someone else (The Transhumanist knows these pages best, but doesn't tend to use a watchlist) will chime in with the other reasons, or links to past discussions.
Quiddity is correct. The outlines have never been subpages of a portal, but were article drafts stored as subpages of a WikiProject, where they were kept until they included enough material to be moved to article space.
Outlines (which used to be called "List of basic x topics" and "List of x topics") are lists, and are subject to the WP:LISTS guideline. Note that lists are a type of article, and while these particular articles are featured as links on a portal, they aren't actually part of the portal, similar to the articles listed at Portal:Contents/List of glossaries, Portal:Contents/Overviews, Wikipedia:Featured articles, and all subject-related portals. Portals are for the most part intended to present links to articles, including list articles, and those articles aren't considered part of the portals themselves.
The articles List of overviews, Lists of topics, List of glossaries, and Lists of basic topics were moved to portal space because they didn't look like normal list articles. They had been extensively reformatted to match the style of Portal:List of portals. The person who moved the pages mistakenly cited WP:ASR as his reason, perhaps because the title "Avoid self-references" implied that it applied to all self-references. To solve this recurring problem, that guideline has since been renamed to "Self-references to avoid" (WP:SRTA), reflecting the scope of the guideline, which pertains to specific types of self-references only.
Once in portal space, references to Wikipedia were added to those pages, because WP:SRTA no longer applied to them (it doesn't apply to portal space). We thought "what the heck" and integrated them more fully into Wikipedia's contents system, with emphasis on "Wikipedia's". :)
Has this portal ever been approved? Some of the created articles are clearly inappropriate in mainspace; outlines of controversial articles remain controversial and subject to editing restrictions. — Arthur Rubin(talk)20:01, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
It is not a portal per se. It's a list that was moved to portal space because it has graphical formatting, menu icons, etc. Matching lists were already in portal space, including Portal:Portals. We connected them together, via consensus, as a set. The Transhumanist02:34, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I have a number of concerns which don't seem to be being dealt with in the Outline articles:
If the article is under an editing restriction, then this outline must be under the same restriction. I don't think that's being done. Outline of Kosovo?
The [[Outline of ....]] articles I've seen are of no use to anyone, except possibly an index into the article in question. They should not be in article-space, and also should not be indexed by Google. I don't doubt the possibility of a useful outline of.... article; I just haven't seen one.
OK, that could be considered an outline, although it seems to be using a Wikipedia-only definition of outline. However, Outline of Kosovo, or, in general, outlines with the majority of links red, should not be in article-space. Articles where the names are subject of naming restrictions (Macedonia, anyone?) need to inform the appropriate people before the article is created. However, I don't see an immediate problem other than that, except that that the project, as currently run, makes us look stupid. — Arthur Rubin(talk)18:44, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
yes. The problem here is not with outlines as such, it with a single user who has taken this project and more or less run amok with it since last May. Peace to outlines, they can be very useful to be sure, but this aggressive hogging of main namespace, and the irresponsible search-and-replace mass creation of new pages needs to stop now. --dab(𒁳)09:38, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
What's missing?
Have you noticed any major subjects missing from the Outline of knowledge?
If interested in the automated message I've left below, I can give the OOK project its own list. I remember someone saying that a lot of AWB work was involved in the project, hence why I'm here.
This a general notice to all AWB users: you can now install the Fronds plugin, and contribute towards improving it. Find/Replace On Demand Services (FRONDS) are collaboratively-created blocks of Find-Replace combinations for AutoWikiBrowser, where knowledge can be shared for maximum efficiency. All AWB users are invited to try them out, and make suggestions. Don't know anything about regular expressions? Fear not, you can still enjoy using the plugin. Fronds is particularly suitable for those collaborating to make repetitive edits. Any questions can be directed to the talk page or my user talk page. Cheers, - Jarry1250(t, c, rfa)12:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
An editor recently created this article, which isn't a proper list at all; but I can imagine it being converted successfully into an "Outline of San Francisco" if anyone here is looking for something to do. ThemFromSpace07:56, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
2 points
The outline of James Bond is way too specific to be included in the outline of the sum of human knowledge
That's what the tableofcontents and scrollbar are for. Collapsing entire sections of pages isn't generally a good thing. It irritates as many people as it potentially pleases. Even Wikipedia:Good articles doesn't collapse sections by default anymore (currently). -- Quiddity (talk) 20:21, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
It's been suggested before (for articles) and widely rejected by the community. It clutters the page up, and isn't necessary in addition to the keyboard buttons [home] and [page up], and mousewheel, and browser scrollbars (clickable and draggable).
1) Clutters up the page? Are they really that big? I would think it would just be small text on the right side of a header.
2) I'm using a computer that does not have home and page up/down keys. However, it does have a multi-touch trackpad, but with a page this long, the scrolling would get tedious. ... It's a Mac, you see, so I'm not alone. Democraticmacguitarist (talk) 17:18, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
1) Clutter is subjective! I live quite happily in a world of clutter. However, we try to keep the "interface" aspects of Wikipedia as minimal as possible, generally. (I'd hypothesize).
Tangentially: if you used a section-link to jump down through a page, you can often (browser-depending) use the "back" button/command to move up to the table of contents again. You probably know this, but justincase. :)
2) Hmmm. Good point. You might want to bring that up at the Village pump discussion, or start a new one later. It applies to articles as much as this page though, so shouldn't be decided here. In the meantime, hopefully the instructions to add Top-links for just yourself, will do what you need. -- Quiddity (talk) 19:31, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
1.1) What I meant was I thought the "back to top" buttons were only about half as small as your signature and wouldn't take up much room at all. Or am I wrong?
1.2) When I originally came to this page, I was in browsing mode: you know, scrolling to see what was there. I wasn't able to press the back button and be in the same page because I never touched the table of contents. Back to Top buttons would do something about this.
By clutter, I don't mean taking up physical space, but clutter as a mental distraction. Blue links tend to grab the wandering eye. Having blue links next to headers would mean one has to mentally 'stop' reading the header before the words "back to top" begin.
Whilst it might be easy for us, it might be a lot harder for those at the edges of the age-range, attention-range, foreign folks, etc.
That's my opinion on it, at least. As I said, if you'd like a larger discussion, I recommend taking the topic to the Villagepump. Maybe someone can make a "User preferences->Gadget" for it, or similar. HTH. -- Quiddity (talk) 19:17, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Objection to changing "Outline of Knowledge" to "Outline of knowledge"
Fram, in your edit summary, you asked why "knowledge" would be capitalized...
Because "Outline of knowledge" is the grammatically correct name of Wikipedia's outline article about the subject "knowledge".
And because Wikipedia's "Outline of Knowledge" is not an outline article about "knowledge": it is an actual outline (tree structure) of the body of human knowledge! It's a unique entity, with its own name. It is a proper noun. To refer to it as "the 'Outline of knowledge'" or "Wikipedia's 'Outline of knowledge'" would be grammatically incorrect.
Britannica has a work entitled "Outline of Knowledge" as well, within its Propaedia volume. It is their tree structure of the body of human knowledge. Ours is positioned to grow much more comprehensive than theirs, due to the nature of wiki development.
By the way, we used to have Britannica's Outline of Knowledge tree structure, in multiple pages, down to their subsection level in the Wikipedia namespace. It got deleted as a copyright violation.
Based on scope, other outlines of the body of human knowledge include the Library of Congress Classification, and the Dewey Decimal Classification. Being specific presentations of man's accumulated knowledge, their titles are also proper nouns. We still have multiple-page copies of those.
The outlines listed in Wikipedia's Outline of Knowledge (OOK) are articles about their respective subjects (in structured list format), and so their titles are not proper nouns. They do however serve as extensions (i.e., branches) of the OOK and are linked to from there because they are themselves outlines about the corresponding subjects. When outlines are linked together, they form a larger (multiple-page) outline.
Britannica's Outline of Knowledge goes 7 levels deep, while Wikipedia's tree structure of the body of human knowledge already goes 9 levels deep in some places. It may reach 11 or 12 levels deep some day.
Please change the title back, as it now incorrectly indicates that it is an outline about the subject "knowledge" rather than a presentation of the body of human knowledge in outline format. And because it inappropriately duplicates the title of the article Outline of knowledge.
I'll let other people comment as well, I am not convinced by your reasoning. Perhaps we should just rename it to "Outline of outlines" and be done with it? Just like we have lists of lists? Fram (talk) 06:27, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
"Outline of outlines" implies that the subject is "outlines", rather than just the content. For example, outline of sharks includes information on types of sharks, history of sharks, study of sharks, behaviors of sharks, etc. An "outline of outlines" would cover the types of outlines, their applications, their history, etc. But as a proper noun, "Outline of Knowledge" implies that its content is knowledge, outlined - it is different than the article. The Transhumanist20:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
No opinion as to whether "Outline of knowledge" is acceptable, but Outline of Knowledge would be a proper name, would require attribution, and would, according to Wikipedia guidelines, be called "Outline of knowledge" even if the capitalization were appropriate "in the real world". — Arthur Rubin(talk)20:18, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to separate natural and physical sciences, when physical sciences are a branch of natural sciences? Natural Sciences should be sufficient by itself. Its similar to having a list called Religion and Abrahamic Religions--entirely superfluous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.31.85.180 (talk) 17:27, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Afaik, the section title "Natural and physical sciences" is written like that partially to provide appropriate keywords for someone glancing through the Table of Contents, and partially to match the "A and B" naming style that is used in the other section titles.
Whilst we could consider changing the titles (of that section and other sections) to something like those used in Template:Science, I don't believe those would be as clear to many of our readers. (eg "Formal sciences" vs "Mathematics and logic")
I was not too sure how to hook the article Outline of the metric system into this article - is is science or is it engineering and technology. Could it be commerce (which is where it originated in 1799)? In the end I added a new section "Metrology" as an applied science and hooked the metric system artcile on there. I am happy to respond to any observations or comments. Martinvl (talk) 13:57, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
Edit request on 14 February 2013
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I added "Oneness (Tauheed) and Justice/Equilibrium (Ad'dl in Arabic language)". This is the very basis of Islamic Science. This subject or theme has atonce been removed. Undo option is being used for restoration, without knowing its future retention, in view of my experience editing here.Nannadeem (talk) 11:48, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
The previous treatment has been replaced. Now the entire section is about life management via the management and evolution of ontology, sociology, aesthetics, and physics. How this pertains to people and self is unclear (as are the quotes), but more importantly, it appears that another outline of knowledge is being constructed from scratch in this section.
I think it might be a good idea to revert it to the way it was:
<!--[[Outline of race|Race]] • -->
<!--[[Outline of self-management|Self-management]]-->
<!--[[Outline of family|Family]] • [[Outline of goal setting|Goal setting]] • [[Outline of occupation|Occupations]] • [[Outline of person|Person]] • [[Outline of personality|Personality]] • [[Outline of personal life|Personal life]] • -->
Note that the hidden comments are included above. They are links to planned outlines intended to flesh out the section.
This section is intended to be about people (including the self as one of them), not about all knowledge. Your input is needed. What do you think? The Transhumanist07:27, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
This oddness can easily be rectified by creating outlines for more people. Outlines make a good structural framework for a useful portal. · · · Peter (Southwood)(talk): 12:43, 28 June 2018 (UTC)