This article was nominated for deletion on 12 December 2023. The result of the discussion was no consensus.
Warning: active arbitration remedies
The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic
The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:
Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.
With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:
Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related articles
The ICC chief prosecutor didn't anywhere mention 'genocide'. He merely acknowledges that the ICC is prepared to investigate war crimes (of both sides?). That the Oct 7th attack was murderous is certain, but the relevance of the ICC visit isn't clear. Obviously an investigator is not going to offer an opinion either way at this stage, prior to independent ICC investigation, so why is he there? I can't read the full Haaretz piece (£££.$$$.€€€). Pincrete (talk) 10:49, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Most of this article is WP:SYNTH as most sources in the article do not explicitly state that the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel was genocide (in fact some of the sources used in this article are from before 2023). Now some sources do make this allegation specifically, but not sure why this can't be covered at Second Holocaust? VRtalk06:02, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Second holocaust is per lead: The notion of a "second Holocaust" (Hebrew: השואה השנײה, romanized: HaShoah HaShniyah) or "Another Holocaust" (שואה נוספת, Shoah Nosephet) is an assertion that the Holocaust or a similar event is recurring or will recur. It is often used to discuss real or perceived threats to the State of Israel, the Jewish people, or the Jewish way of life. ------ The Second holocaust article is on the fear of a threat of extermination of the Jewish People or Israel.
This article is on the allegation of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel. It is not on the fear or perceived threat of a second holocaust. It is on the allegation of a genocide committed by Hamas against Israelis in 7/10. Homerethegreat (talk) 12:52, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How is this POV fork? This is a notable topic, the whole section is made up of academic discourse and its on a specific notable event on a point of time as well as government responses. Homerethegreat (talk) 13:09, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No - The topic meets notability guidelines and is much better served in a dedicated article. This is not a POVFORK; it seems whoever makes this claim has never actually read that policy. POVFORK refers to two articles on the same subject expressing different points of view. The scope of Second holocaust is completely different so the idea this is a POVFORK is absurd. Furthermore, this article is only weakly related to the idea of "second holocaust". Very few reliable sources express the viewpoint that the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel was a "second Holocaust"; the number of victims is of a different order of magnitude. However, many genocide scholars interpret the intentions of the mass killings on October 7 as meeting the legal definition of genocide. Marokwitz (talk) 20:17, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into more appropriate articles, whichever they might be (e.g. 2023 Israel–Hamas war, 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel, etc). The accusation is not notable on its own. If an open letter is all that it takes to declare a genocide then Israel is guilty of genocide as well. The attack was a standard terrorist attack within a standard war. The word genocide has been cheapened lately.
No - Second Holocaust might need a short section in referring to this as the main article. But it keep separate. This is a strange special case of what the accusation is being used to justify, so keep it stand alone. The only thing it might fit in as a merge is War crimes in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war. But I still think this should stay separate. Irtapil (talk) 20:25, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lack of Neutrality/Bias
There are sections for public and academic discourse, yet this discourse seems only to be in favour of this characterisation of the attacks of ‘genocide’. More needs to be added for the opposite side, as it is quite rare for one series of attacks to be termed a genocide throughout history. In the Palestinian genocide accusation article, both sides of teh argument are at least clearly represented.
No criticism of the characterisation is used in the lede, whereas this is standard and is done in the Palestinian genocide accusation article.
The use of the ‘Antisemitism in Islam’ accusation could potentially be seen as offensive. This conflict does not regard the whole of Islam, rather the 2023 Israel and Palestine/Hamas conflict and so just Palestine. Thus, the Racism in the State of Palestine article and/or the Antisemitism during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war article (seeing as this whole article only concerns the 2023 attacks) are more appropriate to be used, in my opinion.
We need to collaborate to share thoughts and improve this article, which is arguably not yet suitable for consumption (although to me it has the makings of a strong article).
I'm a Muslim, I don't care if something is "offensive". What I do care about is these allegations are thrown around without sufficient sourcing. Can anyone provide sources that the Islamic religion motivated a genocide against Israel on October 7? VRtalk02:28, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The context in the article introduces Hamas, yet some text could be devoted to explaining the beginning of the formation of Hamas in relation to the Israel-Palestine conflict in general. (e.g. reasons for formation, context within the first Intifada, formed by who?)
This is simply a suggestion, discussion is of course welcome.
@Homerethegreat: the material you have re-added largely predates the topic and so is still OR/SYNTH. Since WP:OR is policy and a core content pillar, this is non-negotiable - nothing written on talk can magically make synth permissable. Background sections aren't something editors get to just make up out of thin air. Each source must be directly connected to the subject, which sources that predate the event this page refers to clearly do not - not least direly dated material from 1992. Please clean up your own mess here. Violating core policies in a contentious topic area is fairly disruptive, and more so when repeated. I would prefer not to have to waste my time escalating this. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:03, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Iskandar, I don't think its the case. You can see there is content and sources including experts that also directly connect (therefore not synth or OR). For example Bruce Hoffman, Dr. Hilly Moodrick-Even Khen... Homerethegreat (talk) 09:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is scholarship and sources on the issue. Regarding false balance, I hardly think there is need to compare the article to Palestinian genocide accusation. This article is modeled on the allegations of genocide against Ukraine. Regarding synth, go to the discussion above and see that on the contrary, there is a feeling there there is insufficient context. Homerethegreat (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article on Ukraine is much more serious, with an international investigation ongoing if I understood correctly, the whole article is simply more developed and opinions of scholars are not simply listed but complemented into a coherent text with a point. About synthesis, it is clear it is a present worry of several users so I recommend leaving the template some time now that the AfD has closed. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 17:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.
Oppose. "Allegations of genocide during the Israel–Hamas war" would be a very different page with a much broader scope. Perhaps one can just create such new page, where this page covering only the attack by Hamas would be a sub-page. My very best wishes (talk) 00:25, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We already had a merge request with another article and lots of reasons were presented there regarding notability and GNG and I think they also apply here. Homerethegreat (talk) 20:03, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]