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Should the gallery in this article be changed from the current version to the altered version? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:56, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]


CURRENT GALLERY


ALTERNATIVE GALLERY

Survey

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  • I would add that the replacement of individual images can certainly be discussed outside the scope of this RfC, which seeks only to deal with the wholesale changes to the gallery made -- without discussion -- by one editor. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:14, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Chronological order: Yes - the second gallery being in chronological order seems to me to be more informative;
Works only: Yes - I agree that a gallery of an artist's work should be restricted to those works and not include images like the plaque photos (I really don't think they're informative to include in an encyclopaedia article anyway).
Fewer photos per building: Yes - having multiple photos of one building (e.g. five of the exterior of St Paul's) is less desirable on the architect's page than it would be on, say, an article about that particular building.
Gallery mode: Yes - the default gallery mode in the second gallery shrinks the images to similar sizes and makes it much easier (for me anyway) to look through (which might be why it's the default appearance).
but with the following caveats...
Specific images: We can definitely still explore which are the best images to use for each building separately. Beyond My Ken says this isn't a discussion about the specific images, but if there are featured images of some of the buildings, I imagine those are very likely the best ones to include.
Fewer buildings: If a building is already featured elsewhere in the article, I'd agree it doesn't need to go in the gallery as well. However, I don't think we need to limit the number of buildings featured in the gallery and I think doing so is likely to cause future conflict as to which buildings to include or not.
Interior/exterior: Where there are interior images in the second gallery, I think it would be informative to also have an exterior.
So, I'd like to suggest a compromise solution, using the second gallery in chronological order, with up to one exterior and one interior image per building, but including all of the buildings from the first gallery?
--JCrue (talk) 21:06, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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User:Beyond My Ken's choices
User:Filetime's choices
I would lastly like to stress (again kind of at a loss here) that the content of galleries should accurately reflect their titles. Obviously, neither the Blue Plaque nor Bankside House are Wren’s works. BMKs reversion thus not only violates Wikipedia’s clear rules regarding WP:NOT, it is a sloppy umbrella reversion that returns misplaced content to the gallery. Filetime (talk) 05:33, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The duplication of images that are already on this page above and the poor formatting of this comment are the fault of Filetime, who refused to allow me to correct them. As with their image choices for the article, their judgment in this matter is extremely poor. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:47, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Beyond My Ken: You literally duplicated an entire discussion. If you are so worried about repeated content, engage with the thorough discussion above. Filetime (talk) 05:49, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, I did not "duplicate an entire discussion". I replaced a discussion that you started and invited your friends to participate in with a formal RfC in which everyone in multiple WikiProjects was provided a neutral pointer to. Them's different animals. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:53, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@GrindtXX, JCrue, Omnipaedistaz, AllegedlyHuman, and Ham II:: I'd here like to ping major editors as well as editors to Balliol College, Oxford who have similarly expressed preferences regarding images relating to Wren’s work (explicitly permitted in the rules laid out at WP:CANVASSING given that they are "Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)" and are all pinged regardless of their opinions. Filetime (talk) 06:00, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • This RFC is about whether images of architectural works should be ordered chronologically and whether featured and quality images should be included in place of those which are as few as 600 px wide. Filetime (talk) 06:26, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, as the number of images is way too many. It certainly needs reworking, but not with a similar number. Secretlondon (talk) 18:11, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

St Bride's, noted as "one of Wren's finest churches" is known for the "significant development" of "the provision of side galleries." Which of these two images better captures this important work and its place in Wren's architectural practice? Note that the second image has been selected as a featured images, meaning it is "considered one of the finest images" on Commons. Filetime (talk) 23:22, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for that clarification as to what the "question" is, Beyond My Ken, because in fact, up to now, you haven't made that clear at all: you have merely posed a stark binary choice between the "current" and "alternative" galleries. As JCrue has pointed out, there are actually a number of different questions at issue, and it would be helpful to separate them out. To my mind, they are as follows (and I will refrain from offering my own opinions on any of them at this stage):
  1. Should we set a limit on the size of the gallery, with a view to avoiding an indiscriminate collection of images (per WP:GALLERY); and if so, what? This needn't be an absolute limit, but it might be helpful to have an approximate guideline (e.g. 30, 40, 50, or 60 images).
  2. In order to discourage indiscriminate growth, should we limit images to one per building? Or, where appropriate, two per building (interior and exterior)? Should we avoid illustrating a building in the gallery if it has already been illustrated in the body of the article?
  3. Should the gallery include images that relate to Wren, but do not illustrate his buildings (e.g. plaques)?
  4. Is it helpful to arrange the images systematically in some way – e.g. chronologically, as Filetime has done, or perhaps thematically (separating religious from secular, for example)? Or do we want to maintain a random order?
  5. Is it preferable to format the gallery in default "gallery" mode (as the alternative version does), or in "packed" mode (as the current version does)?
Once we've reached a consensus on those points, we can perhaps turn to the merits of individual images. GrindtXX (talk) 20:24, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @GrindtXX, JCrue, Omnipaedistaz, AllegedlyHuman, and Ham II:, with regards to question 1 (a limit on the size of the gallery), I think that the newly created List of works by Christopher Wren further undermines the argument for any more than, say, 25 images within a single gallery. Any reader, so inclined, can simply visit the aforementioned page and view 85+ images of Wren's work in chronological order. As for the images that are selected, in accordance with what is quite clearly outlined at WP:GALLERY, as many as possible should be distributed throughout the article in relevant sections. Filetime (talk) 00:59, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I was not aware there was a separate List of works by Christopher Wren. Following the precedent set by other pages (e.g. Vincent van Gogh and List of works by Vincent van Gogh, Pablo Picasso and List of Picasso artworks 1901–1910, 1911-1920...) I would go further and suggest we shouldn't try to reduplicate the list article by having a gallery on this page at all, and only have the images used alongside the text. --JCrue (talk) 07:45, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Having thought about it some more, I'm inclined to agree with JCrue: the gallery is unnecessary. This article is primarily about the man rather than his works: for the latter, we have not only List of works by Christopher Wren, but also List of Christopher Wren churches in London. A few of the images in question could reasonably be relocated to appropriate places in the body of this article, which at present is a bit text-heavy. GrindtXX (talk) 15:42, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Filetime (talk) 19:16, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Date of Death, AGAIN!

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What is the problem here people? His date of death is listed as 8 March 1723 [O.S. 25 February]. WRONG! Old style should state 25 February 1722! Again for those who don't know or don't care about actual history, England started the new year on 25 March starting from around the 12th or 13th century until 1753 when the Gregorian calendar came into effect. Until that time they were on the Julian calendar which was 11 days behind the Gregorian calendar. The article also quotes a stone plaque beneath the center of St. Paul's Cathedral that alledgedly says, "SUBTUS CONDITUR HUIUS ECCLESIÆ ET VRBIS CONDITOR CHRISTOPHORUS WREN, QUI VIXIT ANNOS ULTRA NONAGINTA, NON SIBI SED BONO PUBLICO. LECTOR SI MONUMENTUM REQUIRIS CIRCUMSPICE Obijt XXV Feb: An°: MDCCXXIII Æt: XCI." Somebody please provide a photo of that plaque, because if it really does say 1723 in Roman numerals, that means he was 92, not 91, when he died. This has been discussed many a time on this talk page until sometime recently when it was removed. Until such time as it is fixed to the proper dates and protected from being changed by some idiot who doesn't know a damn thing about history and how things worked in the England of the middle ages to Rennaisance period and thinks January 1st has always been New Years Day since time immemorial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:A9B0:527F:8521:4451:BCD6:82A3 (talk) 07:34, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

... bit like spelling ('center' .... ?) 82.40.43.135 (talk) 14:43, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes, time immemorial. I've forgotten when that was. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:08, 7 May 2022 (UTC) p.s. here's an image you were asking for.[reply]

Victorian attitude to Wren

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The article should contain some detailed reference to the attitude to Wren in the Victorian era, and to the fact that many of his churches in the City of London were demolished in the 19th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.40.43.135 (talk) 14:42, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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