Follow clear guidelines

We should be on the clear on this issue by now, and significant article such as this should be edited by following WP:LEADIMAGE and WP:PORTRAIT. ౪ Santa ౪99° 07:52, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:PORTRAIT is an essay and goes against a long-standing consensus to include an infobox image here. StAnselm (talk) 14:16, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can see (perhaps I missed something in the archives), the only discussion of this that has ever taken place consisted of someone proposing Michelangelo's David and someone else saying "I don't want to look at a naked man"... which isn't really a discussion. The more well-known imaginary image would be better in my opinion, but it ought to be a portrait, e.g. File:'David'_by_Michelangelo_FI_Acca_JBS_084.jpg, not a full body shot. Furius (talk) 19:09, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Small edit: Nabaal's widow

In the Biblical account - Family section, Abigail is described as Nabaal's wife, but this is misleading since it implies adultery or biandry. Given David's famous foible, changing to "widow" would better clarify the matter.

Apologies if this approach is inappropriate. I am a very casual user. Throody Shrelfe (talk) 15:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Good pickup. StAnselm (talk) 15:48, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Historical sources for the lead of the article

Are there no historical references for King David? The construction of the temple mount by his son King Solomon, is widely acknowledged outside of rabbinical literature and is supported by historians like Josephus, who lived only a few hundred years after. While biblical literature faces scrutiny, King David's historical existence is recognized beyond rabbinical texts. Flavius Josephus is generally accepted as a credible historian, so I'll try to find the exact text when I have a chance. Additionally, I'll explore other historical sources, as adding a historical reference would enhance the article. Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 00:36, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Flavius Josephus is generally accepted as a credible historian" Not really. Josephus' biases are particularly evident in his writings. From the main article:
This source is based on the scriptures. In reality there is no such evidence in archaeology. Josephus was not alive around the alleged time of David, and would not be able to add anything beyond thousand-year-old anecdote. Wdford (talk) 15:10, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When I have the chance I will source archaeological evidence, I agree that is a more straightforward way of enhancing the article. Still, I think there is merit in Josephus' account even if they need to be contextualized as not being alive during that time. Just curious, who do you believe built the [[Western Wall]]? Do you disagree that there was a jewish temple there? Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 15:30, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can't know for sure, that's why I said probably. Anyway, the point is that even if that Temple was dedicated to Yahweh, Yahweh was still by and large a Pagan god. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where are your sources for this claim and what does that have to do with this discussion about the First Temple? Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 17:24, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relevance: Pagan god in Pagan Temple. That Yahweh was initially a Pagan god is Bible scholarship 101. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:27, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please provide a source. Furthermore, it's a leap of logic to assume because other cultures adopted similar worship that the Temple was built by pagans. Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 17:28, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Smith, Mark S. (2002). The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel (2nd ed.). Eerdmans. p. 32. ISBN 978-0-8028-3972-5.
A much simpler point is that Judaism simply did not exist in the 10th and 9th centuries BCE, so everybody was a Pagan (meaning polytheist), including all Judahites and all Israelites. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a source for this claim? According to your source when was Judaism founded? Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 19:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Between the 10th century and the beginning of their exile in 586 there was polytheism as normal religion all throughout Israel; only afterwards things begin to change and very slowly they begin to change. I would say it is only correct for the last centuries, maybe only from the period of the Maccabees, that means the second century BC, so in the time of Jesus of Nazareth it is true, but for the time before it, it is not true.

— Prof. Dr. Herbert Niehr, Tübingen University, Bible's Buried Secrets, Did God have A Wife, BBC, 2011

But to sum up, it's clear that the biblical patriarchs and matriarchs are not strict Yahwists, as we will come to understand that term. The P and the E sources preserve this insight; and they preserve it in their insistence that the Patriarchs worshiped God as El, but at the time of the Exodus, God revealed himself as Yahweh. There's an interesting passage in the book of Joshua, Joshua 24:14-15. Joshua was the successor to Moses. He presents the Israelites with the following choice: "Now therefore revere the Lord," using the word Yahweh, "revere Yahweh, and serve him with undivided loyalty. Put away the gods that your forefathers served beyond the Euphrates and in Egypt"--put away the gods your forefathers served beyond the Euphrates and in Egypt--"and serve Yahweh. / Choose this day which ones you are going to serve, but I in my household will serve Yahweh," serve the Lord. Only later would a Yahweh-only party polemicize against and seek to suppress certain… what came to be seen as undesirable elements of Israelite-Judean religion, and these elements would be labeled Canaanite, as a part of a process of Israelite differentiation. But what appears in the Bible as a battle between Israelites, pure Yahwists, and Canaanites, pure polytheists, is indeed better understood as a civil war between Yahweh-only Israelites, and Israelites who are participating in the cult of their ancestors.

— Christie Hayes, Open Yale Courses
You seem to be an expert in the history of Judaism, as told by Orthodox Jewish scholars, which is completely different from the history of Judaism taught at WP:CHOPSY.
The POV of Orthodox Jews upon early Judaism is to a large extent void currency inside the mainstream academia. In mainstream history, it's void. Same as Jehovah's Witnesses dating the fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE. Despite your protestations, it is clear that both these groups promote cult pseudohistory. I do have an ax to grind against pseudohistory, especially against fundamentalist pseudohistory. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As per Wikipedia, the Western Wall was started by King Herod the Great, almost a thousand years after the putative time of King David. Most of what we see now was added during the later Islamic period. There was large-scale architecture in Jerusalem long before the putative time of David, but that was Bronze-Age Canaanite work. There was fresh Iron-Age architecture in Jerusalem after the putative time of David. However the Western Wall was part of the so-called Second Temple, built originally by Herod the Great. Wdford (talk) 15:42, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Correct, the significance of the Western Wall lies in its proximity to the Temple Mount. King Herod the Great aimed to construct a massive temple, and to achieve this, he erected massive retaining walls around Mount Moriah. Thus, the focal point is really about the Temple Mount rather than just the wall. Let's rewind about 500 years. According to Jewish history, this marks the destruction of the First Temple. As per Wikipedia, the Temple Mount is considered the holiest site in Judaism, where both Temples once stood. Before all of this, there existed a Canaanite presence in Israel, in line with Jewish tradition. Just to clarify: Do you also believe there was a First Temple before the Second one, and who do you think built it? Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 15:55, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I advise you to read Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 244#Gospel of John. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm having an engaging discussion with Wdford based on fact and reason and seeing where it takes us, no need to inject this here. I did not attempt to cite the Torah directly for the claim that the 1st Temple was built by King Solomon. Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 17:23, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, the Torah isn't an authority according to WP:RSPSCRIPTURE. Nor is Josephus, because he is not a 21st century historian. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where is your source on Wikipedia conventions that sources written over 24 years ago cannot be included? Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 17:27, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not about 24, but about 100: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 329#User edit warring to add back sources older than 100 years.
And Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 360#Age of a history book. How old is considered too old to be cited?
These being said, I have WP:CITED myself works by Carl Clemen and Edward Gibbon, but I did fully disclose to the reader how old were those works, i.e. stated in prose that it is a scholarly view from 1924 or from the 18th century.
WP:RSN does not support a ban on these sources, but does admit that the insights of many Ancient or Medieval historians (e.g. Josephus) have been largely superseded. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:03, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am having increasing trouble seeing this discussion's relevance. You started talking about David's historicity. How did this turn to a discussion about the historicity of Solomon's Temple, and should not this be discussed on the Temple's talk page?Dimadick (talk) 18:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are discussing archeological evidence for King David's existence. However, the OP thinks sources outside of the 21st Century generally don't have merit, so not sure where to go from there. Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 19:01, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My opinion is that the article on David and the article on Solomon's Temple are correct as they stand. There undoubtedly were Canaanite/Jebusite structures on that hill at some point, and the descriptions of the First Temple corresponds closely with "pagan" temple designs of the period, so if there was a temple on that hill then it was quite possibly a pagan temple. As far as I have read, there is no actual hard evidence that Solomon actually existed, outside of the scriptures and Josephus. However the existence of the Second Temple (of King Herod) is clear. None of this has anything to do with King David, or this particular article. Wdford (talk) 20:36, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying that sources written before the 21st century should be banned from Wikipedia. What I do say is: WP:RSAGE. That's a content guideline which as a rule of thumb has to be obeyed by all Wikipedians. More to the point of allowing you to WP:CITE Josephus in order to give the lie to WP:CHOPSY: no, we don't allow that. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:35, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Errors

the story has some error. First David was the second king of unified Israel as Saul's son only rule part of Israel. Secondly he did not conquer Jerusalem rather the house of Jerusalem willing anointed him. 87.95.8.11 (talk) 09:58, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to the bible: 1. David was the second king of Israel 2. David took Jerusalem from the inhabitants (the Jebusites) by taking their stronghold of Zion, the city of David — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davexander (talk • contribs) 01:04, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia does not go by primary sources (see WP:PST), the preferred are secondary academic sources. Furthermore, there is no universal Bible and there is no universal English translation. There are academic sources already in the page that clarifies this issue about Saul's son being the next king. Jerium (talk) 01:03, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It appears there might be a critical misunderstanding. The Hebrew Torah is distinguished by a precise number of characters and stands as a singular version. While other traditions may have appropriated the narrative of King David over the centuries, it is essential to recognize that, concerning the Torah itself, there exists only one version. Even within Christian and Muslim traditions, where the story has been adopted, King David is unequivocally acknowledged as a Jewish king. Hence, I advocate for placing paramount importance on the Torah's narrative over accounts written more than a millennium later.
The absence of a universal English translation poses a challenge, as the nuances present in the Hebrew text are often lost. English renditions primarily convey the Peshat, the straightforward or literal reading, leaving behind the Remez (allegorical), Derash (metaphorical), and Sod (hidden meaning) interpretations.
According to the Torah, David holds the esteemed position of being recognized as the second king of Israel. This acknowledgment is rooted in various biblical texts, particularly the Books of Samuel. A pivotal moment in David's narrative unfolds as he captures Jerusalem from the Jebusites, establishing it as the iconic city of David. This significant event is detailed in 2 Samuel 5:6-10.
Do you agree that there is considerable merit in prioritizing commentaries from universally respected poseks and scholars, such as the Rambam, as invaluable secondary sources? These commentaries often provide profound insights that may be absent in contemporary perspectives that perceive King David's story as mythological and subjective. If you hold the view that the article should deviate from the established timeline in Jewish tradition, could you offer an explanation to support this divergence? Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 10:50, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I do think there is special importance in the Jewish narrative, other narratives being younger do not make them less WP:DUE. Remsense留 20:08, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly. I agree. My response was prompted by the preceding statement asserting the absence of a universal Jewish Torah which is not true and an editor's preference for a recent "academic" source, which diverged from the Torah's timeline. I am emphasizing that, in discussions about the succession of kings, the Torah's timeline for King David should take precedence over an "academic" source that establishes a new timeline based on theoretical foundations or a synthesis of various narratives.
While acknowledging the value of younger narratives and traditions that independently recognize King David as a Jewish king, it is crucial to incorporate them in the appropriate sections with contextual accuracy. I believe that omitting critical moments from the text regarding his rise to power as King is not the most appropriate approach. I'm also hoping to include a Josephus source as discussed a few weeks ago once a consensus is reached. What do you think? Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 13:48, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I found an article on Purim that cites Josephus quite comfortably. When I have the chance, I will try to include some of his quotes in the article unless anyone objects or wants to discuss it further. Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 08:16, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe paste the quotes here first, and the source, for discussion? Wdford (talk) 09:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I'll do that first when I have the chance to find the quotes, thank you Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 15:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 14 February 2024

I am requesting that we use other interpretations of historical biblical images. The ubiquitous Caucasian images are outdated and even offensive in some communities. I would like to change that first image to this:

FYI
 – ☒N Deleted text encoding an image of unknown provenance using base64, a technique which I've never seen before. Wow! Remsense诉 20:10, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jcarney79 (talk) 12:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: Most images are copyrighted and not usable on Wikipedia, as we only use fair use images (like album covers) when there is no non-copyrighted version available. Wikimedia Commons contains free-use images, so try looking around in commons:Category:David (Biblical figure) and its subcategories. QuietCicada chirp 14:23, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Josephus, Flavius (1981). The Jewish War. Translated by Williamson, G. A. Introduction by E. Mary Smallwood. New York: Penguin. p. 24.
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