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Brown University EEPS1960X course assignment[edit]

This article is or was the subject of a class project aimed at updating IPCC references to the most recent report (AR6). More details can be found on the course page. Student editor(s): JF726. Updates will be made according to the IPCC citation guide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JF726 (talk • contribs)

Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - FA22 - Sect 201 - Thu[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 September 2022 and 8 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MichaelNhy (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by MichaelNhy (talk) 01:54, 2 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - SP23 - Sect 201 - Thu[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 January 2023 and 5 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): KristinaAllen (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by KristinaAllen (talk) 18:15, 15 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Suggestion to convert to long ref style[edit]

I think it would be better to convert the referencing style to the long ref style (currently some of the refs are in short ref style). Does anyone object? EMsmile (talk) 09:17, 20 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Proposal for a new structure[edit]

I have just re-arranged the structure a bit. My thinking was that there should be fewer main level headings and that these should be more generic where possible so that readers can easily orientate themselves. With "generic" I mean headings such as: Definition, sources, concentrations, role in XX, etc. Earlier on we had main headings that were difficult for the reader to grasp (e.g. this as a main heading: "Chemical process contributions to radiative forcing" which I don't think is very suitable for a main level heading). This is now the new structure, what do you think?: 

Definition
Sources
Role in heat transport and radiative forcing
Role in greenhouse effect
Concentrations in the atmosphere
Removal from the atmosphere
History of scientific research
See also
References

The two section headings "role in..." probably overlap a bit? If I have moved a text block under the wrong section heading, I apologise; I hope I got it mostly right.

For comparison, this was the structure of the article before I started: 

Infrared active gases
Constituents of atmosphere
Radiative effects
Chemical process contributions to radiative forcing
Factors affecting concentrations
Contributions to the overall greenhouse effect
Contributions to enhanced greenhouse effect
Concentrations in the atmosphere
Sources
Removal from the atmosphere
History of scientific research
See also
References

Also, I tried to anticipate in which order a reader is looking for information. I am guessing it's in this order: what is a GHG (definition), where do they come from, what role do they play / what is the problem with having too much of them, how much of them is there in the atmosphere, how can they be increased or decreased. EMsmile (talk) 09:24, 20 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A summary of changes made in the last few months?[edit]

Hi User:Rhwentworth and others: could you perhaps provide a quick summary here what the improvements were that you recently made to this article (in the last few months) and the rationale for these changes? I am just trying to understand the editing (as there was nothing on the talk page but quite a bit got changed and improved). Perhaps you could also point out which flaws you were trying to address, and which flaws and shortcomings you still see with the article now. I came to this article as part of this project and am currently doing the baseline quality scoring (our baseline was the July 2022 version). Our scoring system is explained here. I think the current version is already quite a bit better than the 26 July 2022 version which is our baseline. EMsmile (talk) 09:29, 20 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think in some cases, this article should interlink better with other articles, rather than repeat too much of the same/similar content. E.g. with respect to greenhouse effect or carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere. There might be scope for using an excerpt in a few cases so that we later don't have to update the same information in two articles. EMsmile (talk) 10:30, 20 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

IPCC's exclusion of water vapor?[edit]

I read at IPCC list of greenhouse gases that water vapor is excluded from the IPCC list of greenhouse gases. I think it would be useful if this is briefly mentioned and explained in this article? EMsmile (talk) 10:34, 20 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Water vapor is a potent greenhouse gas, but not one that humans are directly adding to, so it's not one of the drivers of climate change the IPCC is concerned with. That's why I pulled it out from underneath "Greenhouse gas emissions from human activities". It is a feedback that impacts climate sensitivity in complicated ways (because of clouds mostly). Efbrazil (talk) 22:13, 20 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think this is a very helpful explanation so I have added it to the main article; could be tweaked further and a better ref found but I think it's useful to explain early on why water vapor is a "special" GHG. EMsmile (talk) 07:38, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks! I'm not sure I used the most artful explanation, but I'm happy to have it in there. Efbrazil (talk) 19:08, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Mentioning of other planets in the lead[edit]

I had removed the mentioning of other planets in the lead but you (Efbrazil) put it back in with the justification: "I disagree with removing mention of the greenhouse effect on other planets in the lead. It is an important point that this is not just a phenomena on Earth, and further it makes it clear the issue is one of physics and not politics". I disagree that it would have to be in the lead (if it's not in the main text of the article) and in particular that it would have to get prime position in the first paragraph. So my compromise suggestion (which I have now implemented) is to have it at the end of the lead and also have it at the end of the main text. The lead should not contain content that is not in the main article. In addition, I think the mentioning of other planets makes more sense at greenhouse effect rather than at greenhouse gas and does not need to be elaborated in both articles. At greenhouse effect there is already a whole section for it: Greenhouse effect#Bodies other than Earth, so let's not duplicate. EMsmile (talk) 07:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't understand why other planets should only be mentioned in the greenhouse effect article and not the greenhouse gas article. The issue is equally relevant in both articles.
Keep in mind that this article would exist even if climate change wasn't happening. Placing greenhouse gases outside the context of climate change makes it clear that this topic is one of basic physics. If we only focus on climate change the article is more likely to be off putting for someone coming from a position of wanting to learn.
I'm not a fan of putting the text at the end of lead, because I think it is important for framing the lead. The framing I'd like to see is: greenhouse gas definition, scope across planets, how they work on Earth, how climate change is altering their makeup. Efbrazil (talk) 19:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I tried to resolve the issue by splitting the first sentence into two- first a defintional sentence, secondly how greenhouse gases cause the greenhouse effect. Doing that makes me more comfortable removing the mention of other planets, because I think it grounds the lead in physics. You raise a good point that the article really doesn't talk much about other planets, and the lead should be a synopsis of it. Efbrazil (talk) 20:09, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I like your new solution. Seems perfect for the lead. Do you think the section in the main text about other planets needs beefing up or is it enough like it is now, i.e. one sentence and then refer readers across to Greenhouse effect#Bodies other than Earth?EMsmile (talk) 21:14, 23 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Improving caption for the lead image[edit]

I had changed the caption for the lead image to this: "Greenhouse gases, such as carbon dioxide, methane, water vapor, trap some of the heat that results when sunlight heats the Earth's surface." This was reverted by you, Efbrazil, with the comment "Removing grammatically incorrect sentence change". What was grammatically incorrect about my sentence? I think it was a useful change and it gave the same three examples that are also shown in the image. EMsmile (talk) 07:26, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Gramatically, you are missing the "and", so text should read "such as carbon dioxide, methane, and water vapor".
Second, I don't believe this addition is helpful. It's not relevant to the image, and we already enumerate gases in the first paragraph of the article. Why do we need them enumerated in both the first paragraph and the caption of the first image? Efbrazil (talk) 18:54, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I see in the image there are symbols for those three gases. I don't feel strongly about the deletion- if you want to put the grammatically correct listing of the gases in there that's fine by me. Efbrazil (talk) 20:10, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks. I've just changed the caption again with a suggestion for an improved caption that makes it more tangible for the reader (it's longer than my previous suggestion but better, I think?). Yes, it's also under definition but the lead image is a real eye catcher so I think its caption should be clear and helpful to our readers. EMsmile (talk) 20:54, 23 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

First sentence[edit]

The first sentence is now A greenhouse gas (abbreviated as GHG) is a gas that absorbs radiant energy at thermal infrared wavelengths.. Seems nice and simple but is it really OK to deviate here from the IPCC definition which includes the emissions aspect as well? It says: "Greenhouse gases (GHGs) Gaseous constituents of the atmosphere, both natural and anthropogenic, that absorb and emit radiation at...". Ebrazil, you removed the "and emits" part with the justification: "According to the IPCC, the definition of a greenhouse gas is not that it emits infrared radiation, only that it absorbs it. Any substance will emit infrared radiation if heated to a certain temperature, so mentioning that is unnecessary, it is like mentioning that the gases have a mass as part of their definition." I am confused. EMsmile (talk) 21:13, 23 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A more succinct IPCC source is here:
https://www.ipcc.ch/2019/05/13/ipcc-2019-refinement/#:~:text=IPCC%20Methodologies,human%20activity%20cause%20global%20warming.
It says this:
Greenhouse gases are gases in the atmosphere such as water vapour, carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide that can absorb infrared radiation, trapping heat in the atmosphere.
The IPCC glossary does say "and emit" along with a lot of other stuff, but it is an extremely long definition and is also scoped to the planet Earth so it's really not the definition we should be using. Efbrazil (talk) 02:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's not really an "IPCC source" but a blog post / news item so I don't think it's a highly reliable source. But I guess it's OK if the first sentence is a bit truncated/simplified, provided the full definition appears later in the "definitions" section of the article. And I think it's fine that the article and lead is mainly focused on planet Earth, with a little side mention that other planets have the same thing. The whole terminology of "greenhouse gas", "greenhouse effects" has only come about due to the human made climate change. If it wasn't for that (or for other planets), I think we would probably calling it different things, perhaps just "infrared absorbing gases".
Come to think of it, our first sentence is actually full of technical jargon. Each term has a wikilink but this doesn't make it any better. Perhaps we could improve on this and make it easier to understand. Maybe something like Greenhouse gases (abbreviated as GHGs) are gases in a planet's atmosphere that, due to their physical properties, contribute to the greenhouse effect of that planet. Their key physical property that they have in common is that xxx. This now makes me wonder if the articles on greenhouse gas and greenhouse effect should perhaps be combined? They are so closely intertwined that it's hard to delineate them clearly. If we don't combine them, have we ensured that there is not more overlap than necessary? EMsmile (talk) 06:43, 24 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Looking around on the internet for easy explanations of GHGs I find similar things on top of a quick Google search:
I've made some changes to the first paragraph of the lead now, based on my reasoning described above and by using similar wording that is used at the climate change article. The purpose of this is to make it easier to understand for laypersons and not to bombard them with technical jargon in the very first sentence. EMsmile (talk) 08:07, 25 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't understand why you reverted this, User:Efbrazil, saying "Undoing revision https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_gas&oldid=1167035014 as new text is inaccurate. Please take this to the talk page if you want changes". I had already taken this to the talk page earlier and explained why I wanted it changed. Which part about the new text is inaccurate? I think it's clear and easier to understand for laypersons than the current version.
My proposed first paragraph was:

Greenhouse gases (abbreviated as GHGs) are those gases in the atmosphere which absorb some of the heat that the Earth radiates after it warms from sunlight. This effect is called the greenhouse effect. Larger amounts of these gases trap more heat in Earth's lower atmosphere, causing global warming. The physical property that these gases have in common is that they absorb radiant energy at thermal infrared wavelengths.[1] Generally speaking, greenhouse gases trap some of the heat a planet's surface radiates in response to light from its host star (which is the sun in the case of planet Earth). EMsmile (talk) 10:32, 31 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

For comparison, the current version of the lead starts like this: A greenhouse gas (abbreviated as GHG) is a gas that absorbs radiant energy at thermal infrared wavelengths. Greenhouse gases cause the greenhouse effect by trapping some of the heat a planet's surface radiates in response to light from its host star (which is the sun in the case of planet Earth). EMsmile (talk) 10:34, 31 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As I said above, greenhouse gases are not an Earth specific thing, and it is inaccurate to scope them to Earth in the definition. The IPCC is obviously Earth focused so they may scope their discussion of greenhouse gases to Earth, but that doesn't mean that's correct as a general definition of greenhouse gases. The current text is accurate and succinct. Efbrazil (talk) 16:29, 31 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I tried to clean up wording a little in the existing lead. I think your main goal here is making the text more accessible, which I would also like to see happen, but the first sentence needs to be definitional. I'm not sure how to make a definitional sentence that is also more accessible. Efbrazil (talk) 23:10, 31 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, it's all about making it more readable, and not losing readers already in the first sentence... I am not sure that I'd agree with your statement: "the first sentence needs to be definitional". As per the MOS (here): "The first sentence should tell the nonspecialist reader what or who the subject is, and often when or where. It should be in plain English." So it should be descriptional rather than definitional. Also, I think most readers will want to know about what this means for Earth. So I think it's fine if the first para focuses on Earth and then says later that GHGs exist on other planets as well. But the focus of this article should clearly be on Earth, which is why the first sentence can also be about the situation on Earth. Pinging a couple more people to get more thoughts: User:Femke, User:Clayoquot, User:InformationToKnowledge. EMsmile (talk) 08:40, 1 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I also would like inputs from others here. One audience to consider is people that view this lead but are a climate change skeptics. For that audience I think it is helpful to begin with making it clear what greenhouse gases are and how they work on a physical level, before launching into global warming. It helps ground the discussion in the physical sciences, making it clear that greenhouse gases are not a political / earthly invention but rather just physics. While I understand the desire to launch into effects on Earth and climate change early on (e.g. why should you care), raising that topic too soon will cause a lot of people to tune out the content.
Finally, for everyone else I also think a clear definition is what people are primarily interested in. Someone clicking into greenhouse gases or triggering a search on that term likely already knows they're what makes climate change happen, but they want to understand the how and what. Efbrazil (talk) 21:01, 1 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Seems like it's just you and me. Hopefully others will still join in later. What do you think of this for the start of the lead: Greenhouse gases are a group of gases that - due to their physical properties - lead to the greenhouse effect in the atmosphere of Earth or other planets. Their key physical property is that they absorb some of the heat that the planet radiates after it warms from their host star (the sun in the case of planet Earth). Larger amounts of these gases trap more heat in Earth's lower atmosphere, causing global warming. The scientific explanation is that these gases absorb radiant energy at thermal infrared wavelengths. - I am trying to ensure that people's eyes don't glaze over after just the first sentence! For me as a layperson, the current first sentence is quite incomprehensible: A greenhouse gas is a gas that absorbs radiant energy at thermal infrared wavelengths. It should not be the first sentence. It can come later in the first paragraph of the lead. EMsmile (talk) 09:36, 2 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think between the two of us I think we can come together on this. I agree with your goals for sure. Thanks for being a good sport about this process. Here's my take on wording that is more accessible but still accurate:
Greenhouse gases are specific atmospheric gases that raise the surface temperature of planets such as the Earth. What separates them from other gases is that they absorb the wavelengths of radiation that a planet emits, causing the greenhouse effect. In the case of the Earth, sunlight warms the Earth's surface, which then radiates heat, which is then mostly absorbed by water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O), and ozone (O3). Without greenhouse gases, the average temperature of Earth's surface would be about −18 °C (0 °F), rather than the present average of 15 °C (59 °F).
Rationale for changes from your wording:
  • I like the last two sentences of the existing lead as they ground the discussion in real gases and real temperatures, and I'd like to keep that
  • I went even further to avoid jargon- note I even cut out thermal infrared wavelengths, which I expect you won't mind (we can paper that over with wikilinks)
  • I tried to compress overall wordiness to keep the length similar to your version (and the existing text)
Efbrazil (talk) 18:09, 2 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I like your proposal a lot. Just wondering: the second last sentence is very long and has twice a "which" clause. Also wondering if rather than What separates them from other gases it might be better to say What distinguishes them from other gases; then again, is the word "distinguish" too difficult or has too many syllables? EMsmile (talk) 13:05, 3 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Great! I think we're close enough that I integrated your critiques and went live with the change:
  • "Separates" --> "distinguishes"
  • The long double "which" sentence is rephrased and I think better, as it includes "surface" and "causing" and has only a single "which". I also removed "in the case of the Earth", as on rereading I don't think it's necessary so long as the sentence begins with "Earth".
Efbrazil (talk) 18:38, 3 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm loving the new first paragraph of the lead! I think it's very good like this (further small tweaks are always possible of course). Thanks for the fruitful collaboration on this! EMsmile (talk) 08:47, 4 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

References

  1. ^ IPCC, 2021: Annex VII: Glossary [Matthews, J.B.R., V. Möller, R. van Diemen, J.S. Fuglestvedt, V. Masson-Delmotte, C. Méndez, S. Semenov, A. Reisinger (eds.)]. In Climate Change 2021: The Physical Science Basis. Contribution of Working Group I to the Sixth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change [Masson-Delmotte, V., P. Zhai, A. Pirani, S.L. Connors, C. Péan, S. Berger, N. Caud, Y. Chen, L. Goldfarb, M.I. Gomis, M. Huang, K. Leitzell, E. Lonnoy, J.B.R. Matthews, T.K. Maycock, T. Waterfield, O. Yelekçi, R. Yu, and B. Zhou (eds.)]. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, United Kingdom and New York, NY, USA, pp. 2215–2256, doi:10.1017/9781009157896.022.

Potential for trimming?[edit]

I am wondering if the article should be trimmed a bit to reduce overlap with greenhouse effect? I think especially the sections on "Role in heat transport and radiative forcing" and "Role in greenhouse effect" could probably be trimmed, and readers referred more across to greenhouse effect? Pinging User:Rhwentworth. EMsmile (talk) 09:09, 25 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Pinging User:Efbrazil, what is your view on this earlier question of mine? Should these two sections be merged into one?: "Role in heat transport and radiative forcing" and "Role in greenhouse effect"? EMsmile (talk) 08:49, 4 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The greenhouse effect article has an excessively long section on greenhouse gases as well. I'm generally in favor of reducing redundancy and including prominent cross links instead (including to article subsections). To eliminate the issue entirely I've tried using transclusion before, but always find the results to be disappointing. In other words, trimming sounds great, go for it! Efbrazil (talk) 14:06, 4 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Update: I've come back to this issue now. I plan to cull some content from this article where it overlaps too much with the greenhouse effect article. I envision the greenhouse gas article to become quite short and snappy, with the greenhouse effect article as being the one which explains the details on how this all works. I've noticed also that the greenhouse effect has received quite an overhaul earlier this year, by User:Rhwentworth, whereas this article hasn't received the same attention lately. EMsmile (talk) 09:22, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've done a lot of trimming and moving content to other articles, or within the article. I would still like to tackle the section "Role in radiative forcing and greenhouse effect" and wonder if most of it should be moved to radiative forcing and to greenhouse effect, and just some high-level overview left behind. I am a bit undecided on that one but I just don't like the overlap and repetition with the radiative forcing and greenhouse effect articles. Your thoughts? Pinging also the great User:InformationToKnowledge for their valuable input. EMsmile (talk) 22:44, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The article is a bit of a mess, unfortunately, so I'll need more time to work out the best way to handle its issues. I.e. I see that certain paragraphs appear distressingly outdated, but fixing them would likely require a wider reorganization.
For now, my main suggestion concerns "List of most abundant greenhouse gases", and I have already made it on the linked article's page. I suppose if that were implemented, then much of "Concentrations in the atmosphere" would have to moved up as well, but I'm not sure if that would actually be an issue. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 15:22, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'll reply on the other page about the proposed merger (would be fine by me). My main concern for now is to reduce overlap with greenhouse effect. I see the article greenhouse gas as being the shorter article and greenhouse effect as the more detailed one. (a bit like the difference between sewage and sewage treatment (they used to overlap a lot before I separated them out a couple of years ago)). EMsmile (talk) 23:37, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have now ended up trimming around 1000 words from the article. It really was a mess of many repeated duplications (i.e. numerous ways of saying the same thing about water vapor) and vaguely made points. I have completely hidden the uncited paragraphs on chemical contributions. Some of this material will likely need to be re-added to better explain when and how ozone contributes to warming once better references can be found, but for now, the article only seems to look better without any of it. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 18:31, 22 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Move the table with GWP values?[edit]

I think that the table with values on global warming potential should perhaps be moved to global warming potential to avoid overlap? Or alternatively, shorten the table so that only a few examples are shown and then the rest is available at global warming potential? EMsmile (talk) 12:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've moved that table to global warming potential now and have added an excerpt of GWP under "properties" instead. EMsmile (talk) 13:30, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Suitable image for the lead[edit]

I think for the lead we should have as an image:

  1. Either exactly one image or a carefully selected image collage (like at climate change mitigation) but not two random ones / not well connected ones.
  2. An image that is very much unique/specific to the article so that readers know straight away that they have come to the right article.
  3. In this case: not an image that could also be at greenhouse effect, or at least somehow different to the one at greenhouse effect.
Radiative forcing (warming influence) of different contributors to climate change through 2019
Drivers of global warming (aerosols have a cooling effect that is small compared to the radiative forcing (warming effect) of greenhouse gases).[1]

To this end, I don't see how the graph with the bar chart (see on the right) needs to be in the lead, as the article is not primarily about the causes of climate change but specifically about a certain group of gases (which could theoretically also be "active" on other planets). The caption in the bar chart that you have now back in (Efbrazil) doesn't even mention what this has to do with greenhouse gases. Not very layperson friendly. You have also removed the second bar chart. If I had to choose one of those two, I find the second one a bit better for this article as at least the GHGs are marked in one colour and therefore stand out more. (But the caption was also unclear, although at least it did mention GHGs.) EMsmile (talk) 17:57, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

References

  1. ^ Forster, Piers M.; Smith, Christopher J.; Walsh, Tristram; Lamb, William F.; et al. (2023). "Indicators of Global Climate Change 2022: annual update of large-scale indicators of the state of the climate system and human influence" (PDF). Earth System Science Data. Copernicus Programme. 15 (6): 2295–2327. Bibcode:2023ESSD...15.2295F. doi:10.5194/essd-15-2295-2023. Fig. 2(a).

EMsmile (talk) 17:57, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

P.S. Wondering if we could try something completely different for the lead image. Something that stresses the gas aspect, not the effect aspect. Compare with the lead image at Halogen - another group of gases. EMsmile (talk) 18:05, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Greenhouse gases trap some of the heat that results when sunlight heats the Earth's surface. Three important greenhouse gases are shown symbolically in this image: carbon dioxide, water vapor, and methane.
The extent to which particular greenhouse gases are causing climate change, along with other factors.

Human activities since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution (around 1750) have increased atmospheric methane concentrations by over 150% and carbon dioxide by over 50%,[1][2] up to a level not seen in over 3 million years.[3]

Thanks for opening this discussion. The top image for this article is great but very simple. It's perfect as a visual thumbnail and a unique article identifier, as you say. However, it doesn't provide much information for visual learners. I believe articles are better off if there is one graphic that identifies the topic, followed by a graphic that provides a conceptual overview of the topic, as how this article was structured (and how greenhouse effect is structured). I'm not a fan of collages as a rule- they expand into 4 stacked images on smartphone (which is how most people view wikipedia) while staying tiny tiled thumbnails on desktop.
Climate change is the top issue people are going to be concerned with if they visit this article, so featuring a graphic showing which greenhouse gases are causing climate change and how much is helpful as a conceptual overview. Note that the graphic is now located before the paragraph in the lead that talks about climate change.
I see your point that the graphic should be focused only on greenhouse gases and not other stuff like aerosols. The argument for leaving aerosols in is that is how the IPCC AR6 SPM chose to present the information, plus it does help to put greenhouse gases in context. So I don't see harm in it, although I'm open to other suggested graphics.
Which comes back to why I don't want to use the other graphic you substituted. The other graphic is drawn from deep in an article somewhere and has very different data from the AR6 SPM graphic. Note the difference in how important methane is for instance. AR6 SPM is an extremely widely shown and vetted consensus source that is designed for communicating with the general public, so I would rather we stick to that.
I'm certainly open to caption changes to the graphic or other changes, but I just didn't think that eliminating the graphic from the lead and making that substitution was a step forward. I'll try tweaking the caption a bit now to see if that can help address some of your concerns. Efbrazil (talk) 01:37, 23 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry for taking so long to get back to this. You said most people view Wikipedia on their mobile phone: do you have reliable sources for that? My gut feeling would have been otherwise (thinking perhaps half and half).
I do like the 2x2 image collages (like at sustainable energy) but would not propose one for here. I would prefer just one unique image to signal "this article is about greenhouse gases" but I can't think of one that doesn't look similar to the one at greenhouse effect. Greenhouse gases are by definition gases that cause the greenhouse effect. One could even argue that the two articles should be merged (but I am not pushing for that). So it's difficult. EMsmile (talk) 16:53, 19 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
For brainstorming purposes I asked Chat-GPT for advice. It came back with this:
+++++++++

While I cannot display images, I can suggest ideas for a suitable image for the lead of the Wikipedia article on greenhouse gases. Consider an image that visually represents the concept of greenhouse gases and their impact on the Earth's atmosphere. Here are some potential ideas:

  1. Earth's Atmosphere: An image of the Earth with a visible atmosphere can help illustrate the layer where greenhouse gases trap heat.
  2. Molecular Structure: A visual representation of the molecular structure of common greenhouse gases, such as carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), or water vapor.
  3. Graphs and Charts: Include charts or graphs depicting the historical and current levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. This could show trends over time.
  4. Sources of Greenhouse Gases: Images of common sources of greenhouse gas emissions, such as industrial facilities, transportation, and deforestation.
  5. Impact on Climate: Visuals illustrating the consequences of increased greenhouse gas concentrations, such as rising temperatures, melting ice caps, or extreme weather events.
  6. Comparison with Natural Greenhouse Effect: An image comparing the natural greenhouse effect with the enhanced greenhouse effect, demonstrating how human activities intensify the natural warming of the planet.

Ensure that the selected image is relevant, high-quality, and adheres to Wikipedia's image use policies. Images that are informative and engaging can enhance the reader's understanding of the topic and contribute to the overall quality of the Wikipedia article. 

+++++++++

I like the recommendation on molecular structure. Or perhaps something that also illustrates that wavelength + radiation effect somehow? EMsmile (talk) 16:56, 19 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorry for missing this earlier EMsmile, just stumbled on it and see what you meant when you were asking about platform data in the other thread. I personally am happy with the images the article uses now. I don't find the ChatGPT analysis to be very helpful, what's really needed is a specific proposal of a change. I wouldn't be the one to make that proposal as I like things as they are. So if you have a specific recommended change perhaps you could make the suggestion as a new talk topic. Efbrazil (talk) 17:26, 24 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Understanding methane emissions". International Energy Agency. The concentration of methane in the atmosphere is currently over two-and-a-half times greater than its pre-industrial levels
  2. ^ "Carbon dioxide now more than 50% higher than pre-industrial levels". National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. 3 June 2022. Retrieved 30 August 2022.
  3. ^ "Climate Change: Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide". www.climate.gov. Archived from the original on 24 June 2013. Retrieved 2020-03-02.

Experimental verification of greenhouse effect[edit]

As per https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_gas&oldid=1192355694 , I was asked to discuss on talk page to get consensus.

It is a fact that the greenhouse effect has proven difficult to demonstrate experimentally, and this was backed up by citations. Hence I think it's relevant to include it. Whether a climate change denier would agree with it or not doesn't change the facticity.

What practical steps would be needed to get the edit included? Dale.cloudman (talk) 22:51, 28 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So this is the text that you wanted to include:
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Despite difficulties in demonstrating the effect experimentally, with perhaps the first lab verification being performed only in 2021[1] (though contested in 2023[2]), it is widely accepted as valid[3] and necessary to explain the observed surface temperatures of planets with an atmosphere[4][5]. 

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This was reverted with the following reasoning, and I agree with that: "decline contentious edit - seems to be climate change denial nonsense, please discuss on the talk page and seek consensus before re-adding". It certainly doesn't belong in the lead of this high-level article. Look for IPCC reports as a reliable source if you think this kind of content needs to be added. It may (or may not) have a place at history of climate change science. EMsmile (talk) 16:42, 19 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

All of it is denialist nonsense. The supposed "verification" was "published" at a Wordpress website which only exists to attack the IPCC, and the obviously flimsy "experiment" was clearly only done as a strawman to be knocked down by a "rebuttal" from the same group. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 16:50, 19 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

References

  1. ^ Harde, Hermann; Schnell, Michael (16 December 2021). "Verification of the Greenhouse Effect in the Laboratory" (PDF). Science of Climate Change. 2 (1): 1, 23. Most scientists agree with the fundamental greenhouse theory, but like their opponents they are missing a reliable experimental verification of this effect. [...] To our knowledge we present the first demonstration of the atmospheric greenhouse effect in a laboratory experiment [...]
  2. ^ Seim, Thorstein; Olsen, Borgar (April 2023). "The Influence of Heat Source IR Radiation on Black-Body Heating/Cooling with Increased CO2 Concentration". Atmospheric and Climate Sciences. 13 (2): 1 – via ResearchGate. In a modified experiment, where IR emission from the heating source is present, no heating but a slight cooling of a black object is found when air is replaced by CO2. The modified experimental situation is also more like the earth/atmosphere situation. The presence of IR radiation from a heated surface (like when the sun heats the earth's surface) strongly attenuates the heating ability of increasing backscatter from increased amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.
  3. ^ Hofstrand, Dan (July 2021). "The Greenhouse Effect is proven science". Iowa State University Extension and Outreach AG Decision Maker.
  4. ^ Hansen, J.; Johnson, D.; Lacis, A.; Lebedeff, S.; Lee, P.; Rind, D.; Russell, G. (28 August 1981). "Climate Impact of Increasing Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide" (PDF). Science. 213 (4511): 1 – via NASA GISS. The effective radiating temperature of the earth [...] yields 255 K. The mean surface temperature is [...] 288 K. The excess [...] is the greenhouse effect of gases and clouds [...]
  5. ^ Lacis, Andrew (2018), "Explaining Climate", Our Warming Planet, World Scientific, p. 1, doi:10.1142/9789813148796_0001, ISBN 978-981-314-877-2, retrieved 2023-12-28, This amount of energy is just sufficient to support a global-mean temperature of 255 K. However, the global-mean surface temperature of the Earth is known to be about 288 K [...] The flux difference of 150 W/m2 between the 390 W/m2 emitted by the ground surface and the 240 W/m2 of longwave (LW) flux going out to space at the top of the atmosphere is direct measure of the strength of the terrestrial greenhouse effect.

Table "IPCC list of greenhouse gases" too wide?[edit]

I think the table "IPCC list of greenhouse gases" is still too wide. On my screen it overlaps with the tool bar that is on the right. I don't know how to make it narrower. Perhaps we should take out those graphs? It's anyway unusual to have graphs in a table? EMsmile (talk) 16:36, 19 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I decided to shrink the graphs by half. This should make the table slightly narrower than the standard page size. Does this solve the issue? InformationToKnowledge (talk) 16:59, 19 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Keep in mind that the majority of our users view wikipedia on their phone, so it is good to test the content on an iphone or android browser. Efbrazil (talk) 19:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you, InformationToKnowledge, the table looks good now (on my computer screen and also on my phone). @User:Efbrazil can you please send me a link to the page that gives Wikipedia view rate stats? I haven't seen an official page yet that says that most people view Wikipedia on their phone. (sorry if I overlooked your answer for when I asked you the same question on another article's talk page; I can't remember where that was). EMsmile (talk) 08:53, 22 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm not sure if this is the best source, but here's one the aligns with what I remember from previous discussions:
https://analytics.wikimedia.org/dashboards/browsers/#all-sites-by-os/os-family-and-major-hierarchical-view
Here's the main page on stats:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Statistics Efbrazil (talk) 17:49, 22 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks, Efbrazil! EMsmile (talk) 10:11, 23 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Expanding on "Removal from the atmosphere"?[edit]

Now that I have been able to shrink this article by around 1,000 words just through cutting down on duplication and poorly referenced phrasings, I think we have more than enough space to provide a better explanation of both the natural carbon cycle and the CDR proposals. The current brief summaries are extremely vague and risk only leaving readers more confused about either. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 18:38, 22 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes, that's a good idea. It'll be a fine balance between providing some information but not going into too much depth for content for which we have sub-articles. Whether excerpts are called for in this case, I am not sure. Might be better without resorting to excerpts, or? EMsmile (talk) 10:03, 23 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Where is "Current concentrations compared to before the Industrial Revolution")[edit]

What happened to the section on "Current concentrations compared to before the Industrial Revolution" (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_gas&oldid=1196772069#Current_concentrations_compared_to_before_the_Industrial_Revolution). I thought it was quite a useful section and not duplicated in another article, or is it? Did you remove the entire section and replace it with something else, User:InformationToKnowledge? EMsmile (talk) 10:05, 23 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Well, most of that section had been dominated by large graphics of changes in greenhouse gas concentrations, which looked a little awkward before, and became clearly excessive now that the article got smaller, and we already have those graphs inside a table. However, I agree that some of information in the section was useful, and I have now placed it in a paragraph right before the table. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 20:21, 28 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Re-arranged structure[edit]

I've re-arranged the structure again a little bit. In my opinion, there was too much content that was under "Sources". I have moved some of those sub-sections to be within "Properties" or "Contributions of specific gases to the greenhouse effect". I have also moved to info about geologic timescales to the end of the article, as I felt this is not the main topic of the article. EMsmile (talk) 10:07, 23 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Don't understand the table "IPCC list of greenhouse gases"[edit]

I don't understand what those numbers in bold in brackets in the table "IPCC list of greenhouse gases" are meant to be for. The caption for the colunn says "Mole Fraction [ppt - except as noted]a + Radiative forcing [W m−2] " Why the plus? Should it rather be "radiative forcing are the figures in brackets in bold"? For example for this: 15 (0.0031). But I think we are actually overloading the table here. I would remove those numbers in bold or put them in a separate table maybe? EMsmile (talk) 21:26, 28 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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