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FYI, there is a discussion at Talk:Feminist views on transgender topics#Redirects_and_where_they_go regarding redirects which point to either this article or that article. -sche (talk) 06:14, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, as this was not in the closing summary, the account that created this thread and appears throughout, Rhinocera, was found to be a sockpuppet of an indefinite blocked user, blocked for their disruption of transgender related topics. Were we literally to follow WP:EVADE, there would be no thread here to discuss. --Fæ (talk) 19:11, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"so, you're a TERF?" Reply: "How dare you label me in that manner!" "What!? Are you or are you NOT a TRANS-exclusionary radical feminist!? Reply: "Well yes. Just don't use that blood acronym!"

Point: Isn't a lot of opposition to the term based on the fact it is - to many - an unpleasant sounding acronym? --Trans-Neptunian object (talk) 18:31, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source? Andy Dingley (talk) 18:36, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

*Shrugs* --Trans-Neptunian object (talk) 18:58, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Recently User:Genericusername57 edited the page to remove the description of Rachel McKinnon as a philosopher of language specifically. Normally I would just revert this myself, but because of the administrative sanctions and the fact I haven't made 500 edits yet I need to make my case on the talk page:

Rachel McKinnon is clearly a philosopher of language. The edit summary in question says that "her scholarly work has to do with probability and gambling, logic and assertions, and trans-related/social justice topics" but this is a clear misunderstanding. The majority of her scholarly work actually has to do with norms of assertion, a clearly philosophy of language topic. LokiTheLiar (talk) 07:03, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also Rachel McKinnon, so she's passing any WP:Notability bar anyone would like to throw up. Andy Dingley (talk) 07:32, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored it, as if "norms of assertion" is the key theme through pretty much all of her published work, that puts her firmly into "philosphy of language" in my book. Andy Dingley (talk) 07:36, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

McKinnon takes an epistemic angle on the norms of assertion, not a linguistics one. See for instance her self description:

My primary research focuses on the relationship between knowledge and action. Specifically, much of my research currently focuses on the norms of assertion. I aim to explicate the epistemic dimensions of what we assert to each other, and the relevant norms potentially governing the practice.

and her publications. Cheers, gnu57 17:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The distinction is IMO meaningless, because philosophy of language is very closely related to epistomology, and because "norms of assertion" is an inherently philosophy of language topic. It might seem to someone unfamiliar with linguistics that a paper about philosophy of language is actually about epistimology or logic, but in fact both of those are important subtopics within the philosophy of language. Heck, even the wholly-linguistic field of semantics deals greatly with logic and truth relations.

Plus if you actually read her papers, many of them are quite clearly about language. E.g. this is one of her most cited papers. Right on the first page it contains the line "I propose the following norm as the central constitutive norm for the linguistic practice of assertion:", and it's largely about assertion as a speech act.

Furthermore, even the Google Scholar page you linked classifies her under "Philosophy of Language".LokiTheLiar (talk) 00:52, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm convinced and have no objection to restoring "philosopher of language" phrasing. Anyone up for it may want to clarify the matter at Rachel McKinnon. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 05:31, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In diff, the description of Viv Smythe as a cisgender radical feminist who coined the word for other radical feminists was removed. (The person's username was also removed.) I undid the first part of the change, noting "that it was another cisgender radical feminist who coined a word for other cisgender radical feminists is relevance. I am fine with dropping the username though - not sure it adds anything." Another editor reverted with the unintelligible edit summary "weaselling" (neither version involves WP:Weasel words, AFAICT). I would therefore like to ask whether the removal of "rans-inclusive cisgender radical feminist [Viv Smythe]" has consensus. -sche (talk) 18:19, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think the reason for the term's invention is relevant for inclusion, and the sources talk about that so we should too. --Equivamp - talk 23:49, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's relevant both that she's cisgender and that she's a radical feminist. I wouldn't mind rewording if the objection is that the structure of the sentence is awkward, but I think we should definitely include that information. LokiTheLiar (talk) 06:20, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(There's never going to be a way of making wording on articles like these non-awkward in places...) I also support the inclusion with reference to who the progenitor is. All seems relevant here in context --Trans-Neptunian object (talk) 22:16, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I made this edit because it is inappropriate for Wikipedia in its own voice to say that certain people are transphobic. Per WP:LABEL: Words to watch:...transphobic,...Value-laden labels...may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. And per WP:WIKIVOICE (part of WP:NPOV): Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. For example, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil."

WP:WEASEL cannot be used to maintain the current wording because it (1) cannot be used to overrule the NPOV policy, and (2) WP:WEASEL specifically states, The examples above are not automatically weasel words. They may also be used in the lead section of an article or in a topic sentence of a paragraph, and the article body or the rest of the paragraph can supply attribution. Likewise, views that are properly attributed to a reliable source may use similar expressions, if they accurately represent the opinions of the source.

The previous discussion here is not a justification either. That discussion was largely an argument about sourcing and had major involvement by an editor who is now topic banned for their bullying and driving away other editors. On top of that, the admin's closing statement said, Note that the complained-of text, "transphobic hatred" was added and removed on the same day over a month ago and has not been there since. That may have been true of the lead, but "transphobic hatred" remained in the body, and nonetheless, saying "transphobic" without "hatred" in wikivoice is a problem, as I explained.

Anyone in favor of the old wording will need to explain how it meets WP:LABEL and WP:WIKIVOICE. Please note that my proposed wording could possibly be changed even further, and that I am making no claims that any other part of the article is already okay. -Crossroads- (talk) 01:54, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think you've adequately addressed the concerns that I and others have expressed here and at this ongoing RfC. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 02:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LABEL makes an exception for when a value judgment is widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, which this is. (It suggests in-text attribution for this case, which I would not object to as long as we attribute it while naming the specific sources, which would also skip WP:WIKIVOICE.) The WP:WEASEL problem here is that there's a big difference in credibility between "some people" and "USA Today". Loki (talk) 12:45, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What's the wording of the in-text attribution you'd like to see? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 15:15, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, the current wording would be fine with a "most" in front of it: considered transphobic by most other feminists. The possible problem is that might be WP:SYNTH : we definitely have sufficient sources that most feminists disagree but I'm not sure if any of them explicitly say a majority of feminists say they're transphobic. If we can't source that, I would attribute specific sources: described as transphobic by USA Today, the Daily Dot, (...). Loki (talk) 16:33, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The full quote from WP:LABEL is, unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. No exceptions given - use in-text attribution. Arguably, "other feminists" is more credible than "USA Today". However, USA Today did not actually say it in their own voice, but said it as part of a "feminist glossary", indicating that these are feminists' ideas, so this leads us back to "other feminists" anyway.

And a few more words on WP:NPOV, which states: Neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the editor's point of view. I strongly suspect that this cherry-picking is exactly what has happened in this article, at feminist views on transgender topics, and probably others. Sourcing relies heavily on opinion pieces and partisan media of a single side, even going so far as to use Socialist Worker, Current Affairs, and similar things as sources. Per above, this is not necessarily not allowed, but it is likely one-sided as presented. See also WP:BIASED: reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.

Lastly, kudos to anyone who checks to see if sources are actually saying what they are claimed to. Already we have had several statements that were not actually supported and had to be removed. -Crossroads- (talk) 16:11, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've made an additional edit so the sentence now reads that TERFs are "widely considered transphobic by other feminists" (which I think our current sources support pretty handily). I don't have a problem with in-text attribution (in fact if you want to attribute more specifically, go ahead); my main objection to just saying "other feminists" is that it could be read as just that there exist some other feminists somewhere that think they're transphobic, instead of the probable intended meaning that feminists other than TERFs generally agree that TERFs are transphobic.

As for the sourcing issues: there are several TERF-leaning sources on this page, for one. For two, it's frankly going to be very difficult finding neutral sources about a political ideology, particularly a very controversial one. I'm particularly familiar with this situation because I found several of the sources on this page and on feminist views on transgender topics. There are very few mentions of TERFs in truly neutral sources except for the handful of academic sources about whether TERF is a slur, and news articles about specific events (which are generally not very useful sources for an article about the term itself, though sometimes they do contain some useful bits like the Indy100 piece). The closest ones after that are when a source talks about TERFs as a phenomenon in an explainer article like the one in the Outline, Michelle Goldberg's piece in the New Yorker, or the Daily Dot article: these explainers are usually noticeably slanted because even the act of describing them as "TERFs" versus "gender critical" necessarily takes a side. Loki (talk) 04:51, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I did revert you and I explained why in the edit summary. I think "other feminists" expresses what we have in the sources, and it seems to imply other feminists as a group anyway.

A case could even be made to remove "transphobic" entirely. To quote WP:LABEL again, Value-laden labels...may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. But remember that WP:NPOV states: Neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the editor's point of view. WP:BIASED states: reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. While progressive/activist media and opinion pieces do call them "transphobic", other media, and many or most serious academic sources, do not. Given the lack of agreement among RS as a whole, the label could be removed.

Interesting that you state that There are very few mentions of TERFs in truly neutral sources except for the handful of academic sources about whether TERF is a slur, and news articles about specific events and these explainers are usually noticeably slanted because even the act of describing them as "TERFs" versus "gender critical" necessarily takes a side. This seems to agree with what I have suspected; that this article by its very nature has POV issues. Perhaps it is a WP:POVFORK of feminist views on transgender topics and should be merged back there. -Crossroads- (talk) 14:35, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It might be a good idea to hash out the wording here before editing so as to avoid edit warring.

I think we can more confidently justify using the phrasing "widely considered" if we can find a source that actually makes this claim about general usage, otherwise we are guilty of WP:SYNTH. Until then, "other feminists" or "many other feminists" will do. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 15:23, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should say the strongest thing the sources support, and that strongest thing is quite strong. Annoyingly, I haven't so far been able to find a source for "a majority of feminists consider TERFs transphobic". What I have been able to find are sources that a majority of feminists are trans-inclusive, and I have also been able to find many specific instances of feminists (including the entire editorial staff of many feminist magazines) or other writers calling TERFs transphobic. I would really like to find a source that connects the two things, but you're probably right that without such a source directly saying it, it's SYNTH.

Supposing we can't find such a source, I would prefer listing specific sources over just attributing it to "other feminists" or "many other feminists". E.g. ...have been described as transphobic by USA Today, the Daily Dot, Indy100, and a joint statement by several major lesbian publications, as well as many other feminists. (And to shortcut an obvious objection: yes, all these publications said TERFs are transphobic in an article, not an editorial. That they voiced an opinion in an article does not make that opinion less reliable; in fact, it's why I think it's reasonable to attribute these statements to the publication as a whole and not the specific writer.) Loki (talk) 04:12, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I can get behind your example wording in the body, though listing that many might be a bit much for the lede. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 15:21, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. If we want to keep it really short we could just say several sources in the lead, but I think I'd prefer something more along the lines of some news organizations and many feminists. Thoughts? Loki (talk) 20:53, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 02:17, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, we don't have the sourcing for this. "Other feminists" is plenty specific, avoids SYNTH, and avoids trying to amass a collection of sources that looks ax-grindey. We can't specify an amount because, as you admitted before, Annoyingly, I haven't so far been able to find a source for "a majority of feminists consider TERFs transphobic". I'm not seeing any lesbian publications. USA Today is just repeating the viewpoint of feminists as part of a feminist glossary, not giving their own view. Indy100 said the term is a synonym for transphobia, which is a comment on usage, not an endorsement of that usage. Daily Dot said that TERF opponents say they are transphobic, thus attributing that viewpoint. Remember that WP:LABEL says that Value-laden labels...may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. And that WP:BIASED says: reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. Many RS do not equate TERFs with transphobia and even consider the term a slur, such as the New Statesman, The Economist, various philosophers, etc. "Transphobic" is not widely used by reliable sources, so we could remove the term entirely per WP:LABEL. Saying "other feminists consider" is the compromise. -Crossroads- (talk) 03:19, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think we have a true impasse here, and not enough people around for a clear consensus. When I get to a real computer, I'll start an RfC to hopefully get a more definitive answer. (If I don't by tomorrow please someone ping me.) Loki (talk) 22:43, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Until about a week ago, this page described TERFs as feminists who espouse transphobic sentiments. This was recently changed to feminists who espouse sentiments considered transphobic by User:Crossroads1, and through some talk page discussion has since become feminists who espouse sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic, but we're now at an impasse.

There has been dispute on this talk page about how exactly to phrase this, with debate centering around the following options:

• Option 1: Leave as is: feminists who espouse sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic

  Option 1.1: Proposed by Darryl Kerrigan: feminists who espouse sentiments that others consider transphobic

• Option 2: List specific sources: feminists who have been described as transphobic by USA Today, the Daily Dot, Indy100, and a joint statement by several major lesbian publications, as well as many other feminists
• Option 3: Remove mention of transphobia entirely.

  Option 3.1: Proposed by Rosguill: remove mention of transphobia from the first paragraph but add it to the second which already describes criticism from feminists and academics …have rejected this view and consider it to be transphobic

• Option 4: Revert to previous wording with no in-text attribution: feminists who espouse transphobic sentiments
• Option 5: Proposed by User:Pyxis Solitary: feminists who espouse sentiments considered transphobic by transgender advocates

Please list all options you are okay with and which one you most prefer. Loki (talk) 04:06, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The sources in either case are this Outline piece, this Daily Dot article, this USAToday glossary, this NYT opinion piece, this LGBTQNation article referring to a joint statement by several lesbian publications, and this Indy100 article. Loki (talk) 04:06, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

• Option 2 as per argument above that we should say the strongest thing we can, though I continue to think option 4 or something like it is permissible based on the strength of the sourcing and the fact that WP:WIKIVOICE and WP:LABEL merely say to avoid the term in question. I'm also going to specifically ping the people from the previous talk page discussion, namely User:Crossroads1 and User:Aeusoes1 Loki (talk) 03:55, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Just want to note: I think Options 1 and 1.1 are not great because they're weaker than the sources support. And options 3 and 5 are even worse and I would strongly oppose either of them. Loki (talk) 23:46, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 1 is the best, as it shows how the term is used to mean "transphobic" and is therefore problematic to put on BLPs. Option 3 is acceptable. Option 2 is inaccurate. USA Today was stating the viewpoint of feminists as part of a feminist glossary, not giving their own view. Indy100 said the term is a synonym for transphobia, which is a comment on usage, not an endorsement of that usage. Daily Dot said that TERF opponents say TERFs are transphobic, thus attributing that viewpoint, not saying it in their own voice. WP:LABEL says that Value-laden labels...may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. And WP:BIASED says: reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. Many RS do not equate TERFs with transphobia and some even consider the term a slur; these RS include The Economist, seven women philosophers, the New Statesman, Inside Higher Ed, and Slate. These are just the strongest ones that are already in the article, and more do exist. "Transphobic" is not widely used by reliable sources, so we could remove the term entirely per WP:LABEL. We can't say "many other feminists" because, as Loki said before, Annoyingly, I haven't so far been able to find a source for "a majority of feminists consider TERFs transphobic". Trying to list source after source looks like trying to bolster a particular POV. Option 4 is unacceptable per policy. Per WP:WIKIVOICE (part of WP:NPOV): Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. For example, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil." Also note WP:LABEL again: Words to watch:...transphobic,...Value-laden labels...may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. -Crossroads- (talk) 16:47, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Option 1.1 is a no-go. It's too vague and suffers from WP:WEASEL. Plus, it implies that all others consider the people labeled TERF to be transphobic, which is definitely wrong. -Crossroads- (talk) 21:42, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 1, maybe without the second "feminists" - The sentence seems fine to me. But perhaps it could be improved if written something like this:

Coined in 2008, the term is generally applied to a minority of radical feminists who espouse sentiments that others feminists consider transphobic, such as including opposition to transgender rights, the exclusion of trans women in women's spaces, and the rejection of the assertion that trans women are women.

It is a term used by different people, some likely even incorrectly. Perhaps adding the word "generally" is appropriate (to indicate that others might use it differently). Also I think the more general "others" is preferable to "other feminists" as I expect some folks who don't self identify as feminists have also use the term. Also "including" suggest a non-exhastive list. I don't think those changes are vital, but expect they would improve the sentence. Cheers--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 18:16, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 4 preferred, with the references to support it in the body. I don't see any genuine controversy here. I see "Trans exclusionary" and "transphobic" as synonyms as a simple matter of language and the references are quite good enough to support this option even for anybody who doesn't buy that.
  Option 1 acceptable with the references to support it in the body. This it is a bit clunky and I don't see it adding anything over option 4.
  Option 2 not preferred. It is too detailed for the lede. The list of specific organisations is good content but it should be in the body.
  Option 3 completely unacceptable. This would be censorship of well referenced information for absolutely no legitimate reason. This is fundamental to providing a basic description of the subject. It cannot be omitted from the lede. I don't even see this as an option and I would have preferred if it had not been included in the list at all as it can only distract from discussion of the sensible options.
  --DanielRigal (talk) 20:02, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Option 5 completely unacceptable because it is tautological or circular. It seeks to invoke an undefined group of "transgender advocates" and ascribe the description to them alone. But what is a "transgender advocate" here? It is just anybody who calls TERFs transphobic, isn't it? It is like calling anybody who calls out racism a "member" of "Antifa". It has the effect of undermining the neutrality of the RS sources by labelling them partisan "advocates". This is weaselly and it looks a lot like an attempt to introduce the "TRA" conspiracy theory without evidence. For this option to be credible we would need RS sources explicitly describing at least the majority of the main sources describing TERFs as transphobic as being "transgender advocates". Such sources do not exist. --DanielRigal (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• the list of specific organizations is good content but it should be in the body: does that mean you think that we should go with options 4/1 in the lede but option 2 in the body, DanielRigal? Loki (talk) 01:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

More or less. I think the body has the scope to list some of the notable organisations and publications that have made statements describing it as transphobic or otherwise condemning the TERF position, as well listing as any supporting it, taking care to make sure that any "organisations" we choose to mention are real and notable and not just "astroturfing" operations. --DanielRigal (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 1 seems somewhat better supported by policy than Option 4, but both are accurate. Option 2 is not accurate, so it shouldn't be used, and Option 3 would just look like a really awkward attempt to avoid the elephant in the room. Edited to add: Option 1.1 is better than Option 4, but worse than Option 1 because it is less specific, and the importance that the term was invented and primarily used by other feminists (as the article goes on to show, I think) is of chief relevance. Option 3.1 is probably the best of the options so far. Option 5 is simply editing out mention that the criticism is mostly from/within feminism, so it's no good, but I'd find it acceptable if it were something along the lines of trangender activists and other feminists or other feminists and trans people. --Equivamp - talk 20:39, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 1 or 1.1 best complies with Wikipedia rules on stating controversial opinions as facts in the editor's voice. Option 4 gets into issues of tautology where opposition to certain points of view is summarily defined as hatred or prejudice. If there were better quality sourcing to scholarly works 4 might be an option but what I see is a lot of lightweight fluff. —DIYeditor (talk) 07:32, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 1 = No.  "feminists who espouse sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic". ??? Where is the evidence that those who consider the term transphobic are also feminists?
  Option 1.1 = No.  "feminists who espouse sentiments that others consider transphobic". Who are these "others"?
  Option 2 = No.  We don't treat readers as if they were dunces that can't figure out what citations are for. Just support the statement with RS.
  Option 3 = No.  Because statements that criticize transgender advocacy are considered transphobic by transgender activists.
  Option 4 = No.  "TERF" is a controversial term. Attributions and RS are vital. Additionally, an explanation of what Wikipedia means by "transphobic sentiments" is necessary -- which would require more than media and opinion pieces.

Proposed option:  "feminists who espouse sentiments considered transphobic by transgender advocates ".  Pyxis Solitary yak 12:49, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Realistically, though, I suggest saying which of the 4 or 5 options you dislike the least. -Crossroads- (talk) 22:17, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Option 5 = Yes. (option added 5 September 2019 @ 23:44). Because it's not just "feminists" -- it's feminists and transgender advocates (which are not automatically feminists); thereby the definition should be "considered transphobic by transgender advocates" (which is what these "other feminists" are by virtue of same). (updated) Pyxis Solitary yak 01:28, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The one I "dislike the least" is Option 1.
But all the options are skewed to cement a narrative that has been pre-determined. Self-identified feminists that criticize transgender advocacy are labeled TERFs, but those who disagree with them are not necessarily feminists. Transgender mysogynists are not feminists. The Degenderettes are not feminists. Pyxis Solitary yak 00:27, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome to hold whatever opinion you want about who is and isn't a feminist, but this simply isn't supported by the sources. All of the sources above state that at least some other feminists call TERFs transphobic, and there are several other sources in the article which state the majority of feminists are not TERFs. (And I feel the need to point out, several of these sources are apparently pretty reluctant to call TERFs feminists. Several refer to them as "feminists" in scare quotes, or call them "ostensible" feminists. Not only is your position not supported by the sources, its reverse has significantly more support than yours does.) Loki (talk) 01:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"this page described TERFs as 'feminists who espouse transphobic sentiments'"
"changed to 'feminists who espouse sentiments considered transphobic'"
"since become "feminists who espouse sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic'".

"Leave as is: 'feminists who espouse sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic'"
"Proposed ...: 'feminists who espouse sentiments that others consider transphobic'"
"List specific sources: 'feminists who have been described as transphobic by....'"

You may have created this survey, but you need to figure out what it's about. Pyxis Solitary yak 02:08, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone else seems to be pretty clear on that? To be clear, I am not proposing that this article should say that TERFs aren't feminists, because there are enough sources that say they are plus the acronym literally contains the word "feminist". I'm just saying that position has some support in the sources whereas your position, that their opponents aren't feminists, has zero. Loki (talk) 16:41, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you're going to respond to a comment made by me you need to stop mischaracterizing what I actually stated, which is:
"Where is the evidence that those who consider the term transphobic are also feminists?"  and  "but those who disagree with them are not necessarily feminists".
English is my third language but in any language those statements do not equate as none of their opponents are feminists.
Option 1 is:  "feminists who espouse sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic". Option 1 assumes that all who oppose TERFs are feminists.
I suggest that you go find another editor to zero in on. Pyxis Solitary yak 23:06, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's not saying that (or at least, doesn't read that way to me). It appears to be specifying that the views are conbsidered feminist by other feminists because it's a term used primarily by feminists, was created by feminists, and characterizes a rift primarily in feminism - the feminist critics of the views are what's relevant to the term. --Equivamp - talk 23:35, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

or at least, doesn't read that way to me -- but that is how I read it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who does (nor do I expect readers and editors who have witnessed the toxic wars involving trans-related articles, and who refrain from getting involved in them, to step into this discussion). Pyxis Solitary yak 01:10, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have reason to believe that the group of readers and editors you've vaguely alluded to will all have the same (mis)reading of the sentence? If so, why? If not, I don't know what that has to do with what I said or why you said it to me. Also, if your main beef is that other feminists to you means all other feminists, and not that I'm incorrect in saying the term is used primarily by feminists, was created by feminists, and characterizes a rift primarily in feminism, then why is your proposed alternative to exclude mention of other feminists entirely? --Equivamp - talk 23:33, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You can put away the Grand Inquisitor hat because I'm not going to play along with you. By the way, the term was not "created by feminists" -- it was shorthand created by one self-identified feminist Australian writer (who the F is Viv Smythe?) who didn't want to spell out what it meant over and over again in her blogposts, and the term caught on. Pyxis Solitary yak 01:11, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The hostility is bizzarre and wholly unecessary. Please stop.

Created by one feminist or a dozen, it doesn't change the fact that "TERF" characterizes a dispute within feminism, and removing reference to it from the lead would be utterly detrimental to the page. --Equivamp - talk 02:16, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 1.1, since the sources aren't just feminists but newspapers, etc. Cite the sources, but don't stack up a big list of them in the main text. Best done as a single footnote, itself laying out the sources one by one. This is a good article for the two-section referencing style, with footnotes to short cites that then refer to full bibliographic citations in the section below that.  — AReaderOutThataway ^t/_c 17:09, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 1.1, although I'd prefer the wording that "some consider" rather than "others consider." The term "transphobic" is so loaded that it's hard to employ that against people without running afoul of WP:NPOV or WP:BLP. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ^Talk 18:11, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Doesn't the reasoning "so loaded that it's hard to employ against people running afoul of NPOV", also apply to trms like anti-semitic, racist homophobic?Oldperson (talk) 18:37, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Potentially, but that's not at issue in this article. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ^Talk 18:47, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Definitely. That's why WP:LABEL tells us to avoid using those terms and, when we must, the manner in which we can use them while still maintaining NPOV. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 19:29, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  But the question of "some" vs "many"/"others" is a different issue. The term "TERF" itself is already considered pejorative by the people its applied to, so why is it a problem to say that the people who use the term believe that it indicates transphobia? If you look at the entry for homophobia it doesn't say "some people consider homophobes to be prejudiced against gay people". Nblund ^talk 19:40, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  People can't have it both ways though. If TERF is derogatory like transphobe or homophobe, than it's not a neutral descriptor and can't e.g. be used as a category for BLPs. -Crossroads- (talk) 22:15, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't think that's necessarily the case. We have a categories for white supremacists, criminals, and communists, after all. Nblund ^talk 17:06, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• No strong objections to Option 4, Option 3, or Option 2. I object to the other options because they are too equivocal: they imply that a "trans-exclusionary" person who is in "opposition to transgender rights" might-or-might-not-be transphobic. Which is a bit like saying saying that an egg salad might-or-might-not contain eggs.

I'll throw in a new proposal as well: the term is applied to a minority of radical feminists who espouse sentiments such as opposition to transgender rights [etc]. USA Today defines the term as "referring to feminists who are transphobic."

(Incidentally, I disagree with the notion that the USA Today piece is not in the paper's own voice. That's just some clever tap-dancing to try and discredit a reliable source. The piece is listed in the News section, not Opinion, and it is completely unequivocal. It doesn't say "here are what some feminists believe" or anything like that.) WanderingWanda (talk) 02:57, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 3, as the rest of the lead makes it perfectly clear where TERFs stand on transgender issues. However, I would also propose a Option 3.1: remove mention of transphobia from the first paragraph but add it to the second which already describes criticism from feminists and academics …have rejected this view and describe it as transphobic. Option 4 is acceptable due to the strength of sourcing. 1 and 2 are also acceptable, but less preferred because 1 is clunkily worded and 2 is a bit too much of a laundry list. 1.1 replaces 1’s style problem with weasel wording and is not a preferable solution. 5 is misleading as a description of the chorus of sources that have described TERFs as transphobic. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 10:15, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 5 preferred, while Option 1.1 and Option 4 acceptable, but not ideal. Reason being first and foremost that regarding trans-exclusionary individuals often control the discussion around them. It would be a pitfall that such individuals could have veto power in deciding their own label attributions in this way. Critical theory dictates minorities are the determiners of prejudice against their own groups, not those in power. Gwenhope (talk) 09:33, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Threaded Discussion

My argument for my position has been made in detail above, but briefly: we ought to say the strongest thing the sources support, and the thing they support is quite strong. Our list of sources includes USAToday, the Independent, and the Daily Dot all directly calling TERFs "transphobic" in their news voice (or in other words, the article directly calling TERFs "transphobic" got through editorial oversight in all three cases). Describing this as merely "other feminists" is hugely reductive to the point of being very misleading. Loki (talk) 03:55, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide the exact quote from these three publications where they call TERFs transphobic in news voice. Also, as I have pointed out, this is a cherry-picking of RS. "Other feminists" reads to me as plenty broad, while not making claims that are not directly supported. Thanks for making sure I saw the RfC, but I am watching the page. -Crossroads- (talk) 16:51, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

USAToday: TERF: The acronym for "trans exclusionary radical feminists," referring to feminists who are transphobic., on a page whose URL starts with usatoday.com/story/news.

Indy100: [TERF] is a word leaden with meaning, and is a synonym for transphobia. The acronym refers to people who preach hate and exclusion against transgender women in the name of feminism., on a page whose URL starts with indy100.com/article.

Daily Dot: I'll give you that this one is less clear: their article about TERFs starts with a disclaimer that it addresses transphobic ideas, but in the actual body only says the word "transphobic" when it's attributed to their opponents. Regardless, the URL starts with dailydot.com/irl, which is definitely one of the Daily Dot's categories for articles. Loki (talk) 00:25, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

USA Today's article is a feminist glossary, so it is not in news voice. At most, you just have Indy100 so far in terms of news organizations. And as I have pointed out before, many other RS including news organizations do not agree. -Crossroads- (talk) 22:37, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

USA Today's article is a feminist glossary, but it's in their article space and is written by a journalist. I agree some other news organizations avoid the term but in my view the weight of the existing sources is still enough to support something stronger than simply "other feminists consider". Loki (talk) 01:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Question (especially for User:DanielRigal and User:Equivamp): There seems to be a decent amount of split support between options 1 and 4. Previously, I tried out the wording feminists who espouse sentiments that are widely considered transphobic but the talk page rejected it. It seems, however, like it might be a popular option in this RfC, so, would people be in favor of me adding it as an option? Loki (talk) 00:33, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

other feminists is better than others, to me. More specific and relevant. --Equivamp - talk 13:18, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not I support it as an option I think it is a legitimate option to discuss. To me it falls into the "acceptable" category although I do not see it as preferable to option 1 (due to its greater vagueness, which could leave the door open to ongoing attempts to "clarify" it in line with people's personal views) and I still favour the directness and clarity of Option 4. --DanielRigal (talk) 20:14, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Could you explain how Option 4 is allowed under WP:WIKIVOICE and WP:LABEL, as highlighted above? -Crossroads- (talk) 22:29, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As I have said above, I see "trans exclusionary" and "transphobic" as synonyms as a simple matter of language but also that we have sufficient references to cover it for anybody who doesn't agree with me on that. We don't have a problem with the White supremacy article describing it as "racist" in the opening sentence and I fail to see any similar problem here. I fear that the other options can come across as a bit weaselly to varying degrees. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:49, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm having quite a bit of trouble parsing what I see "trans exclusionary" and "transphobic" as synonyms as a simple matter of language could possibly even mean. Can you please clarify this for us? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 23:25, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The assertion as I read it is that "trans-exclusionary" means "transphobic" (or at least, is basically equivalent in the same way a "white supremacist" is automatically a "racist".) Loki (talk) 01:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I can confirm that this was indeed what I was saying. I wasn't aware that I said it in an ambiguous way but I am glad to have it cleared up so that everybody understands. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:28, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't understand "as a simple matter of language" part. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 19:46, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry about it. So long as you understand the word "synonym" then you can understand my point pretty well by just ignoring that bit. --DanielRigal (talk) 21:35, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Well, then, I'd have to disagree that the two are synonyms. There are other ways of being transphobic than being trans-exclusionary, even if that's the main one. Even if they were synonyms, different words with the same denotation can have different connotations. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 22:21, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so "trans exclusive" is a more specific subset of the more general class of being transphobic and it is an oversimplification for me to call it a synonym? Actually, yes, I can accept that idea. As you say, there definitely are transphobes who are not TERFs, or even pretend to be. This coincides quite nicely with the parallel case of white nationalism and racism, where white nationalism is a specific subset of racism but not all racism is white nationalism. This view still supports my core assertion that "trans exclusive" is, by definition, transphobic and hence that Option 4 provides the simplest correct statement of the matter. It just prevents it working in the other direction to support an incorrect claim that all transphobes are TERFs, but that was never part of my argument, so no problems there. Glad to have got this clarified. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:08, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For all the "Option 1.1" voters: we don't have the sources that, besides feminists, the people labeled TERFs are typically considered transphobic. It's mainly just feminists and trans activists (which pretty much all identify as feminists). Just stating "others" is far too vague and implies that everyone besides accused TERFs thinks they are transphobic, which is false. -Crossroads- (talk) 22:11, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• It seems like WP:LABEL pretty clearly governs this type of situation. As a term, transphobic is "best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." So if we include it, it requires in-text attribution to someone. I'd caution against text that makes it seem like TERFs are the only people who think that TERFs are not transphobic. Attribution to the effect of "everyone in the world thinks that XYZ people are bad, except for XYZ people" defeats the purpose of WP:LABEL. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ^Talk 22:32, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's my opinion that "everyone in the world thinks that XYZ people are bad, except for XYZ people" is totally acceptable in a case where it's possible to source that everyone or nearly everyone who is not XYZ thinks XYZ people are bad. Regardless, that's not the situation we have here: we instead have the much more frustrating situation where we can definitely source that many/most of the people who have written about TERFs but are not themselves TERFs think TERFs are transphobic, but we can't source that any particular number of people does. Loki (talk) 01:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Except that it is not the case that many/most of the people who have written about TERFs but are not themselves TERFs think TERFs are transphobic. See The Economist, these seven women philosophers, the New Statesman, Inside Higher Ed, and Slate, just for starters. Your statement is inaccurate and you should revise it. -Crossroads- (talk) 17:23, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Several of the people you linked describe themselves as "gender critical", including several of the anti-trans Economist writers and the philosophers on the open letter. (So, for example, here's a Medium piece written by Kathleen Stock, who wrote some of the pieces in the Economist, and several of the philosophers in the open letter in which they describe themselves as "gender critical and radical feminist academic philosophers".) Or in other words, I think you've mostly just given even more evidence of what I said. Loki (talk) 23:59, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. If we set the philosophers to the side, you still have Slate, Inside Higher Ed, New Statesman, and, yes, The Economist, which said in its own voice that TERF is a slur and is used to silence debate. And that is without looking for new sources. So it is still false that many/most of the people who have written about TERFs but are not themselves TERFs think TERFs are transphobic. -Crossroads- (talk) 05:47, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

TERF's in their own words, from what I have read so far, espouse a belief, about transgendered women (i.e. male to female)that is hurtful and harmful to some.Some being those who might care about the opinions of TERF's, or maybe some who might seek admiittance to womyn only events like the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival. But the TERF ideology/sentiment bleeds over to female to male transgendered. If TERF's reject transwomyn, do they then accept transmen? Can a transman, having personally experienced womanhood, not be a feminist in the eye of a TERF, since they believe that men can't be feminists? Perhaps this isn't the place, since WP is all about(supposedly) a NPOV and a voice, but sometimes the situation demands inquisition, exposition, questioning and nuance to get at the heart of these problematic terms, and TERF is only one such in WP and the world. Personally I object to words ending in phobic, unless they refer to conditions that involve real fear,like agoraphobic, arachnaphobic because not all bias and prejudice stems from fear, but I also understand that the limits of our vocabulary sources resulted in the invention of such terms to convey social disapproval of a persons actions, and inputed or derived beliefs. Oldperson (talk) 07:10, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to put this here: as of literally today, Vox has an article out that calls TERFs/gender critical feminists "transphobic". (It's also a really comprehensive source for both this article and feminist views on transgender topics, so, good job Vox.) Loki (talk) 16:37, 5 September 2019 (UTC) LokiTheLiar[reply]

Great article. Thanks.Oldperson (talk) 17:01, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting article but "This unholy alliance" - does that sound like a factual description? It reads as an opinion piece by a trans advocate rather than someone summarizing scholarly literature. —DIYeditor (talk) 20:11, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's basically subject to the same caveat we have for Vox over at WP:RSP: Vox is considered generally reliable. It is often considered a partisan source, particularly regarding American politics. It's reasonably clear that the author of the article did journalistic due diligence including contacting WoLF for a statement. It's also reasonably clear that the author is taking a side in this dispute. That being said, being WP:BIASED does not mean we can't use a source, especially a source that's otherwise quite comprehensive. Loki (talk) 20:29, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The survey question states that User:Darryl Kerrigan proposed Option 1.1:  "feminists who espouse sentiments that others consider transphobic."
I proposed another option in my response to this survey (4 September 2019):  feminists who espouse sentiments considered transphobic by transgender advocates.
As with Kerrigan's option, there's no reason this description cannot be proposed as Option 1.2 or Option 5. Pyxis Solitary yak 23:24, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I added that because other people supported it without me adding it. That being said, if you really wanna I can add an option 5. Loki (talk) 23:43, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As I said: there's no reason this description cannot be proposed as Option 1.2 or Option 5. So ... yes. Pyxis Solitary yak 01:15, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for adding Option 5. You forgot to indicate after the original timestamp that the RfC was modified on 23:44, 5 September 2019 (WP:REDACT, WP:RFCQ). Pyxis Solitary yak 04:17, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Sorry, I have just realized that my recent edit ([1]) touched a section that was subject to this RFC. If someone thinks it affects the course of the RFC, feel free to revert it. --MarioGom (talk) 16:32, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Already reverted. The problem I see with the current version is that it implies that the considering TERF as a slur is completely fringe, but it is a matter of wide debate even in some mainstream media. --MarioGom (talk) 17:08, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

MarioGom, it might be good to vote in the survey. Otherwise your opinion here will likely be overlooked at closing. -Crossroads- (talk) 13:16, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Transmisogyny

In the discussions so far, I'm surprised that the term transmisogyny hasn't come up. Because in fact, when the term transphobia is used as a way to characterize the attitude of some radical feminists (whether rightly, or wrongly), what is almost always meant here, is transmisogyny instead. Sometimes the conflation in terms is intentional, and done by some exclusionary radical feminists who are transmisogynist, precisely in order to point out how they are not transphobic: namely, they accept trans men in their spaces, ergo, not transphobic. (I don't have a source or diff at hand, but this is well attested, and I will get links if needed.) But this is sophistry. This "not transphobic" argument is completely bogus and disingenuous on their part, but can only be properly understood in analyzing what they mean when they say "not transphobic". (Spoiler: they mean, "not always transphobic, because I don't exclude trans men".)

The confusion arises, because in the original coinage of the term, Viv created "trans-exclusionary radical feminists". What this really meant, was "trans women exclusionary" but her version sounded better and was shorter, and when she coined it, there was no reason in the world to choose a longer name that no one expected would gain somewhat wide currency, and that was even more of a jawbreaker. This came up primarily in connection with Michfest, Camp Trans, and all that; everybody knew what was meant. Radical feminists, especially radical lesbian feminists, may not be too happy with trans men all the time ("traitors", and all, dontcha know...), but to many of them, possibly most, trans men are womyn-born-<womyn-or-something>s, so somewhat or wholly acceptable in radical lesbian spaces (at least, the gynephilic trans men). After all, if you're essentialist, once a womon-born-womon, always a womon-born-womon. If one hews to a very strict definition of "transphobic", then if someone isn't phobic to 50% of a category (the half of transgender individuals who are trans men), then one has a tough time making a general "transphobic" label stick. At least, that's their hope. Their claim is, I'm not transmisandrist, ergo, I'm not transphobic. It's their, Get-Out-Of-Transphobia-Jail-Free card.

In my opinion, this conflation of terms and differing interpretations of the same term, are at the root of some (not all) of the disagreements above, and hasn't been factored in at all. The argument of those who reject the term transphobia for their beliefs or behavior, fails wrt transmisogyny, imho; at least in most cases. Whether or not it fails in every case, is at the heart of some of the other disagreements above; but that's a separate issue. Mathglot (talk) 23:08, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not 100% clear on the specific differences of the terminology but I think this may be another one of those subset thingies. If transmisogyny is a specific rejection of trans women, and transphobia is a general rejection of all trans people, then transmisogyny would be a subset of transphobia. After all, to go back to the parallels with racism, we call somebody racist if they discriminate against or denigrate any ethnic group(s). They don't have to hold a grudge against all, or even a majority of, ethnic groups other than their own to qualify. There is no 50% threshold here. Take the example of an anti-Semite who is not obviously racist against black or Asian people. Such a person is seemingly not racist against the vast majority of the non-white population but would anybody seriously argue that they are not a racist? I doubt it. A racist is anybody who does any racism and a transphobe is anybody who does any transphobia. This doesn't seem to steer us away from using the word "transphobic" at all. More to the point that is the word the references seem to use.

Obviously, the differences in the TERF positions on trans men and trans women can, and should, be covered in the body of the article and if RS sources call some of it transmisogyny then we should follow the sources on that. (My personal view, as a cis man with no direct experience of this, is that the trans men have it at least as bad as the trans women under the TERF position, in theory although not in practice. Certainly, I think I'd rather be excluded from a clique than be invited in to it just so that that I could be misgendered, erased and generally abused.) --DanielRigal (talk) 00:35, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Daniel, pretty much all of your assumptions are on the mark, as is your analogy to racism. The point is, that there is a fake argument of "non-transphobic" being used by some, and as you point out, someone who is racist against one group, "is racist"; full stop. Your conclusion that it doesn't steer us away from "transphobic" if that's what the sources say, is also correct (that was the bit I left to "a separate issue"). The main point, was to call out the phony-baloney, "I'm not transphobic" argument, and where it came from, and what their reasoning is. This was an attempt to elucidate that. Perhaps it's too fine a point. Mathglot (talk) 01:45, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. Then what does misogyny by trans women fall under? Because trans women who advocate violence against women they consider TERFs (such as the Degenderettes, for example) is identical to the misogyny of males who inflict or want to inflict violence towards women. Pyxis Solitary yak 01:43, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Pyxis Solitary:, that would be a type of self-hatred, but if a trans woman discriminated against or hated women as a class, then that would simply be misogyny, and if the discrimination was against trans women specifically, then they would be transphobic. I don't think there's a term for someone who discriminates against women they consider Terfs, or if there is, I haven't heard it. MisoTerfist? Mathglot (talk) 01:49, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To my knowledge, "TERFs" have not proposed violence against trans women or made death threats against them. The same cannot be said of all of those who disagree with them. There's obviously a new term awaiting creation for trans women who hate trans-exclusionary radical feminists to the point of brutality. Pyxis Solitary yak 02:05, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, this is the "TRA" conspiracy theory is it not? That isn't a thing and it isn't going in the article for that reason. --DanielRigal (talk) 03:07, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What is "the "TRA" conspiracy theory"? Pyxis Solitary yak 06:55, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is a bit off-topic to dig into in any detail here, but basically it is the claim (either advanced sincerely or otherwise) that there exists a "large and well funded trans lobby" which exercises great power in nefarious ways for nefarious purposes. When those purposes are specified they tend to be framed in the terms of a "they are corrupting our youth" narrative. The basis of the alleged "power" is never explained clearly but a vague conspiracy is either claimed or alluded to. This seeks to blame many of the usual targets of far-right conspiracy jibber-jabber, normally dressing it up to sound a bit less obviously far-right to a more progressive audience. This conspiracy theory exists in an attempt to flip the narrative and enable the oppressor to pretend (and maybe even convince themselves) that they are the oppressed and to blame the real victims for that claimed (and maybe even perceived) oppression while ignoring/erasing their real status as victims. If that sounds directly parallel to the Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy theory of the Nazis, and the nonsense of anybody who bangs on about the "homosexual agenda", then you get the general shape of the idea and what it is intended to achieve.

Bringing it back on topic for Wikipedia, this explains why attributing anything to a monolith of "trans rights activists" without being clear about (and providing references for) who we are talking about is unacceptable. Whether intentional or not, doing so has the subtle effect of introducing the language of this baseless conspiracy theory into Wikipedia and has the effect of lending it credibility. Our article on the Nazi Party does not say that "they struggled against the power of the Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy" because there never was any such thing and we don't give credence to such propaganda. Similarly we can't throw the phrase "trans rights activists" around here in a general/monolithic sense and certainly not simply to mean anybody who opposes transphobia.

More generally, we need to take a little care with the word "activist" in any context, on any article, as it can be weaponised in bad faith against anybody who disagrees with something whether they are actually an activist or not. --DanielRigal (talk) 12:05, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pyxis solitary: trans-exclusionary feminists do not have to advocate violence against trans people, as they have their cultural conservative allies who would not hesitate to do that for them. Also, your equation of some trans women ("Degenderettes") allegedly advocating violence against some cis women ("TERFs") as "identical to" the misogyny of male-gendered people against women seems both inaccurate and deliberately offensive.

A more accurate parallel would be women of one racial or cultural group who have advocated violence against women of another cultural group whose gendered norms they do not accept or respect (such as mainstream western women advocating violence against Hijabi women, for example: the category is discouragingly easy to populate. Newimpartial (talk) 13:06, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Despite the attempts on the part of editors to sound professional and neutral. There is no neutral ground on subjects such as transgender, TERF, racism, religion, politics. (I can make an exception, in some isnstances for politics though). An editors bias, pro or con,is evident from their comments. A person is either accepting or rejecting. Those that accept are philic (coining a word?), those that reject are, for the lack of a better word, phobic. The phobics are obviously very adept at using the policies and guidance of WP to present a persona/position that is academic or neutral. But no one is fooled. The emperor is naked is a quite appropriate analogy, and so is a stuck pig squealsOldperson (talk) 11:06, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is difficult but not impossible to write objectively about something that one has strong opinions on. Pretty much any article on politics or religion is going to hit issues like this. It is not easy, but so long as everybody participates in good faith, trying to be as objective as they can while recognising that it is impossible to be truly objective, then we can write good, neutral articles together.

One specific difficulty we have on this article is that TERF is two different things which look pretty much the same from a distance. It is a view emerging from radical feminism that a small minority of feminists genuinely subscribe to. It is also a pose co-opted and insincerely adopted by the far-right as tool to try to split the LGBTQ community and sow discord among the people they regard as "degenerate", which is pretty much everybody except themselves. Our best approach is to be as objective as we can, to assume good faith if somebody disagrees with us, to be willing to rethink when we genuinely make a mistake, but also to be on the look out for bad faith attempts to deliberately derail our efforts. --DanielRigal (talk) 13:53, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

^^^This. Mathglot (talk) 17:43, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Meghan Murphy from Feminist Current could be covered explicitly in the opposing views section. She is very prolific in the topic^[1] and that was covered/cited in opinion pieces^[2] and news pieces.^[3] What do you think? --MarioGom (talk) 17:04, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

MarioGom Since you asked my opinion. I think that you might be a TERF or TERF adjacent, oops didn't mean to be accusatory afterall we are supposed to AGF,but you asked for opinions. Oh you asked about Megahn Murphy. I think that she has plenty of coverage already, in fact you might say that this whole TERF article is about her movement. Therefore we don't need any discussion about her and her opinions.Oldperson (talk) 18:01, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]