B class review[edit]

Currently it is C class for the following reason. There are three places where citations are missing. See below. Djmaschek (talk) 01:57, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Djmaschek, responding to your notes: bullet point 1 - the sentence refers the reader to the relevant section with appropriate sourcing, though I've added sources there, too, so that no one complains just in case. Bullet point 2 - source added. Bullet point 3 - no such monument has since appeared. What you ask me is to prove a negative, and I can't do that. If there is no source saying the monument is there, it isn't there. The moment it appears, there should be some local news coverage, which I'll add.
Thank you for the review. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 14:43, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Szmenderowiecki: I assessed this article as B class. But please edit this sentence: "As of March 2022, the monument in Muranów has not yet appeared." Promise me you will one of the following. (1) Remove the sentence or (2) Put it into a footnote. Thank you. I do not make the rules for B class. This article is not technically B class until you do (1) or (2). Djmaschek (talk) 04:23, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll put into a footnote. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 06:05, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:07, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The nomination has been cancelled. SilkTork (talk) 03:03, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Warsaw concentration camp/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jens Lallensack (talk · contribs) 21:06, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Taking this one. Comments follow soon. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:06, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are two separate elements: it functioned in the ruins of the Warsaw Ghetto (its task was to get rid of the rubble of the ghetto after all), and the main building of that camp was Gęsiówka. So there are two different elements that I believe have to be mentioned. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 22:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, keeping it is totally ok. I am mostly concerned about Good Article criterion 1: well written. If I stumble above it, others might, too. Could you try to formulate it in a more simple and clear way? Maybe make a separate sentence out of it? Maybe writing "within the ruins of the Warsaw Ghetto" instead of "on the ruins" would make things much clearer already, to show that the camp does not occupy the whole ghetto. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 06:19, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is it better now? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:39, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The usage of the abbreviation is both because Polish sources use it and for stylistical reasons, so as to not repeat "the Warsaw concentration camp" in every sentence, and use synonyms of that name instead. (KZ Warschau is also valid, but I don't really know German, and besides most of the publications about the camp were made in Poland anyway).
For this GA it is ok if you decide to keep it, but: 1) We should use the terminology used in English-language sources since this is the English Wikipedia, and 2) clarity always comes before style. "Use the same word for the same thing" really helps readers with understanding. Because in general, if you use a different name, the reader first has to assume that you mean a different thing. I feel that intermittently switching to this non-English abbreviation is challenging to the reader and adds unnecessary complexity. It makes the article less accessible to people. From my experience, in such situations we in Wikipedia normally would abbreviate with "the concentration camp" or simply "the camp" to avoid repetition when it is clear from the context that this particular camp is meant. But I think other articles do generally not switch to completely different names. For example, Auschwitz concentration camp, which is already GA, does not do this. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 06:19, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is why in the very first sentence KL Warschau is explicitly mentioned as an alternative name from German, and there is a link to "see other names", where all relevant names are bolded. The very first version of the expanded articles included all names, for both Nazi and Communist camp, though ultimately the Communist names were moved to the section about the Communist camp. The ones most used in reference to the camp are Gęsiówka and KL/KZ Warschau (depends on language). I think I also used the suggested rephrasings (see The camp and adjacent ruins were also used by the German administration as a place of execution and About 380 SS officers were maintaining the concentration camp, approximately the size of a company). As for the frequency of usage, the piece by Christopher Davies uses it, so does [1] this one. Some others (e.g. Gabriel Finder) use Gęsiówka as a shorthand. Others still use the full name, in particular when referring to the Wikipedia error/hoax that persisted for 15 years. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:39, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As for the article "the", I assume that in English, we wouldn't use it. See this piece for reference.
It's fine as it is. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 22:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It was the only German camp to be liberated by anti-Nazi resistance forces rather than by Allied troops -->[2]
Where did you get this from Szmenderowiecki?
@ GizzyCatBella🍁 14:27, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
[3] [4], refs 46 and 72 in the article. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 14:37, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That might not be correct data. This force also liberated a camp in Czechoslovakia [5] - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:56, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've added an explanatory footnote to that effect. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:45, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The information here[6] is on pages 242-243. Your range is 221-274 [7]. - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:44, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • There isn't any other link for quarantine, but I drew from the other section to explain that there were two quarantines (as written by Berenstein et al.). Better?
  • Indeed.
  • There is disagreement between Kopka and IPN's prosecutors' summary. That's why I mention his name, and I've moved the IPN's opinion out of a footnote and into the main text
  • I made it more clear that there was some action after which the Germans could bear no more of that corruption bull----, which apparently was an escape of a German prisoner, or so Andreas Mix says.
  • "They became prisoner functionaries, such as kapos and Blockältester (block supervisors)" (mentioned a paragraph or two later). I've wikilinked the first mention of kapo.
  • Please ping me when you see any further suggestions/problems. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 12:53, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also Jens Lallensack - Do you realize that if any source and especially non-scholarly source (as those I pointed out) is removed from this particular article, it can not be reinstated without the established consensus? Now - before I roll further, please clarify to me why do you believe it is an acceptable idea to support these questionable referenced in a GA article, despite having multiple other sources available? Arguable sources might be a potential seed of concerns, removed at any time, making this article unstable. Could you please elaborate on this one as well? Thanks. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
According to Wikipedia:Good article criteria: Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. – I don't see the danger for such edit wars here, and the potential removal of one sentence or two (which are only side notes in any case) is a minor issue and not that significant. My personal judgement as reviewer still is that these sources at least meat WP:RS and are used to source relatively uncontroversial information. So I think these issues are not severe enough to fail the GAN, but if these sources can be replaced with better ones, as you say, then, of course, that would be an improvement to the article. Waiting for the author for input on this; I will be away for a few days now. Jens Lallensack (talk) 19:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Shall we remove them now ? - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:29, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
One does not exclude the other. Pseudohistory is a form of pseudoscholarship that attempts to distort or misrepresent the historical record, often by employing methods resembling those used in scholarly historical research. Trzcińska's book certainly qualifies under this description. Distorts the historical record? Check. Misrepresents it? Check. Did the author try to pass off the book as a work of scholarship, using her position as a judge in the specialised commission? Yes. The camp itself is not in the pseudohistory realm, but the 200K claim is.

What should we do with that data Szmenderowiecki? You have number of victims that ranges from 4000 to 20,000. What about this investigation that claims the number of victims is unknown? Do you have access to the original IPN documents to double check that claim? I’l try to look for it if you don’t. - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:29, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are three estimates in the article (Kopka, Finder and Hungarian researchers), the latter two of which refer to the metric the IPN prosecutors speak of (number of dead prisoners, by Finder and the Hungarians), and two of them also provide an estimate for the number of prisoners (Kopka, also from IPN btw and Finder). My view is that if the prosecutors couldn't independently come with some sort of estimate (because we already have several), then we can ignore the fact they didn't come up with one. This also suggests that IPN did not coordinate efforts with Kopka for whatever reason, but that's another story.
As a side question - why is this Rzeczpospolita article is OK to use when quoting an expert (IPN's prosecutors, in this case), while France24 or Haaretz aren't, hum?
For example last page, 22, contains the below text only:
Polish --> egzekucjami oraz wreszcie - zacieranie śladów zbrodni dokonanej na kilkutysiecznej ludnosci żydowskiej getta warszawskiego. Kiedy w dn. 17 stycznia 1945 r. Warszawa zostala wyzwolona spod okupacji niemieckiej, jej teren był dokladnie przetrzasnietym ogromnym rumowiskiem, w którego ruinach przetrwali ukrywajac sie pojedynczy ludzie.
English --> executions, and finally - covering up the traces of a crime committed on several thousandJewish population of the Warsaw Ghetto. When on January 17, 1945, Warsaw was liberated from the German occupation, its territory was a thoroughly shattered huge pile of debris in whose ruins survived hiding single people.
There is no such information in any of the sentences referenced to page 22 of that publication, (as far as I can see) but you give page 22 in your reference. Please address that issue and list the actual pages you are referencing text to. Quotes would be nice to have also, but this is not critical if a proper page is assigned to each claim. - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:45, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't a very big point. I pointed at a range of pages where this work is located in general as a whole and the Polish text is searchable. For me, the question of pointing pages within scholarly articles isn't that of principle, because they normally are rather small. But I will do that if you so wish. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:25, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note:

Closing note – After much controversy, including an ARF, it seems that sufficient time has passed to bring this one to an end. Above concerns of user:GizzyCatBella notwithstanding, I observe that they 1) are not currently resolvable due to differing opinions, and 2) are minor issues affecting not more than on or two sentences, respectively. All in all, I access this article to be GA, and will promote now. Congratulations to the user:Szmenderowiecki for the efforts. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 15:02, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Jens Lallensack I object to that per my notes above. There are issues of You-Tube videos used as a source you never verified (see my prior comments) - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:07, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jens Lallensack What does this video say? You should check that. What does it say? - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:09, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jens Lallensack You need to remove the sources you can’t verified before promoting. Please don’t ignore that by saying it’s minor. This is not minor. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:13, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Read this again. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:18, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Jens Lallensack Please translate (word by word) the entire video used as a source and post text below. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:20, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but this is end of discussion from my side. My decision here stands. Jens Lallensack (talk) 15:48, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jens Lallensack Are you okay with me removing from the article the sources you never verified? Yes or No. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:00, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is not for me to decide. Since the author argued against your suggestions, you would either seek his consent or you need to establish consensus on the talk page first if you like to change the status quo, I believe. Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:12, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jens Lallensack I really have an issue with that. You are the one who knowingly promoted this article to the GA status despite unverified sources and now you say it’s not up to you? I’ll address this elsewhere, I have no other option I think. Thanks. - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We already had an arbcom on this. Please do us a favour and let go of it. Unwatching now. Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:14, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Request for translation help[edit]

Note: This entire section was originally a discussion conducted on User talk:Deborahjay#Request for translation help between June 25 and June 27, 2022. It belongs here on the article page.

This video features an interview with Gideon Greif, a historian of the Holocaust, but I don't know Hebrew. Based on your knowledge of the language, does the historian say that the Warsaw concentration camp narrative about 200K dead Poles is "fake history" or something similar; if not, what is the descriptor he uses for that story? Unfortunately, Google speech-to-text recognition did not really work out, and without the knowledge of the language, I seem to have no other option. Thanks in advance for the help. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:37, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Szmenderowiecki if you don’t know Hebrew how did you know what that source say, who is being interviewed and why did you use it to source the text ? - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:08, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The source's inclusion is longstanding and can be tracked to this revision by Francois Robere, October 2019; Piotrus has briefly removed the source as "non-English" and then put the "citation needed" template on Greif. Also, even with the rubbish translation, it was fairly evident that Gideon Greif was critical of the Polish government (that led by the Law and Justice, to be exact). So the question is what exactly he said. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 20:57, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But how do you know who is in the video. The original entry had 2 sources, this one [18] then the video [19] booth were referenced to three people --> Havi Dreifuss, Jan Grabowski and Gideon Greif. How do you know it is Greif in the video not Dreifuss? - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:30, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The speech recognition software is not as dumb as not being able to recognise "Havi Dreifuss" from "Gideon Greif", come on. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 21:42, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the diff [20] where you, on November 14, 2021, reinstated the Hebrew video as a source next to the Gideon Greif. So you didn't understand what the video actually says because you don't speak Hebrew but you entered the source anyway. You used speech recognition software and you only identify that this is Gideon Greif talking on the video. Correct? Please confirm or elaborate further. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:00, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted Piotrus (or rather, reinstated from the old version of the article I was basing on, together with the Polish version of the article, which was the basis of expansion by translation), because the only reason he proposed for deleting the video was because it was in Hebrew - he did not assert any problems with that video other than he couldn't understand it. I trusted whoever first introduced that video that the inclusion was correct (I now checked that it was François Robere - please explain yourself). Nothing sinister. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:01, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Szmenderowiecki Your edit wasn't a revert. You constructed your own modification using some material from prior versions, and some that it looks to me Polish Wikipedia translation. You recorded in your edit summary --> Quote:
Expanded extermination camp section, omitting the disputed footnote + 2 sources from Zezza, one from some Hungarian historians, a book on the Warsaw uprising (Frantic 7), a book on the post-truth history (History in a Post-Truth world) mentioning the bogus plaques on KL Warschau
You are fully responsible for that edit and the sources you used. That's it from me here. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:11, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Deborahjay - Direct link to the above conversation is used in this AE report. Please don't archive for now. Thank you. - GizzyCatBella🍁 08:06, 27 June 2022 (UTC) -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:44, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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