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The result was Delete. ELIMINATORJR 23:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pirate Cat Radio[edit]

Pirate Cat Radio (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

No assertion of notability, no sources, no way. Has wormed itself into several local media templates-could someone who knows things better than I do extract it if this is deleted? Delete. Bduddy 04:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - With regards to the local media templates, have already removed, in anticipation of deletion per WP:SNOW. TheIslander 23:51, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete this, redirect as needed -- Y not? 03:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tro-Clon[edit]

Tro-Clon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

No secondary sources to establish notability or provide real-world context. Fails WP:N and WP:NOT#PLOT. Jay32183 23:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Please defer merge related discussion to article talk. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 20:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Forest Park High School, Beaumont, Texas 1962 - 1982[edit]

Forest Park High School, Beaumont, Texas 1962 - 1982 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

High schools generally don't deserve their own page and this article is mostly just about this specific one's sports teams. The school has also been closed since 1982. It should probably be trimmed down to about a paragraph and merged into Beaumont, Texas. Scott.wheeler 23:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Seems quite sensible to me. Really, after stripping it down to the info that belongs in WP I'd say that each of the current sections could be condensed to one sentance. Scott.wheeler 02:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's the rule quite yet. I think it should be, simply to avoid people bringing articles like this here. See User_talk:TerriersFan/Schools for a current proposal and its discussion.DGG (talk) 19:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was a strong consensus to delete reinforced by badly behaved single-purpose accounts -- Y not? 03:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yuniti[edit]

Yuniti (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Yet another social networking website. Speedied for lack of sources. Now reposted with sources, but they are the subject's own website and a press release. Those aren't reliable independent sources. Author argues on article talk page that there are other similarly unsourced pages on Wikipedia; I'm going to be looking at those. See WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. NawlinWiki 23:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Please see WP:ININ. Leuko 14:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Considering that these references are blog posts which both appeared after this AfD was started, I really don't think we can consider them WP:RS. And if we called the discussion over at this point, the consensus seems to be to delete the article. Leuko 17:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment It seems like we came back full circle with this discussion. We are getting in a gray area where it's starting to become more opinion than strict policy. So, given our current situation, here is my thought. What steps must we accomplish in order to get this through? We need something quantifiable (X numbers of articles, X number of enrolled users, etc…) -- goals that can be met as, opposed to an opinion of what is notable or not. That way we can leave the "other articles do this or that" behind. If we have specific guidelines, we will go after these measures to ensure the article goes through. Again thank you for giving your time and thought on this subject.Mateuscb 06:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mateus and Marcos: I think it's all been said. When all of the "delete" comments are boiled down, you are still left with the question of notability. With all due respect, the argument, "we may as well delete the entries for MySpace and Facebook as well," is a red herring. You'd be hard-pressed to find someone who hasn't heard of MySpace and/or Facebook. MySpace, in particular, has received massive amounts of press coverage. Notability of those two sites is unquestionable. Except for the websites listed as references in the article, it appears that Yuniti has received no press coverage. Notability is very much in question. Now, there are thousands of articles with very obscure subjects, but obscurity doesn't imply non-notability. Conversely, just because "everyone has heard about" something doesn't automatically grant notability. I could go on, but again, I think it's all been said.
No offense, but my original opinion remains: Yuniti is not a notable website. Not yet, at least. If the situation changes, an article will be welcome. —Travistalk 17:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, I didn't intend for my comment to be misleading in that way and I'll try to be more specific in the future. I wasn't arguing, and don't believe, that notability = popularity. Many people/things/events that receive a lot of press aren't notable. For example, wildfires in the Western United States are always heavily covered, but they don't each deserve an article. Now, back to your point. If Yuniti is prominent, important, or distinguished, I fail to see it. Am I missing something? I have read each of the references listed in the article and can still find no evidence of prominence, importance, or distinction. The Businesswire article is a press release from StrikeForce Technologies about the technology licensed to Yuniti. That is not an independent source. The mashable.com article, the only reference that sounds independent, is as much about StrikeForce as Yuniti. It seems to argue against your case by saying, "…the validation option isn’t required." The mention on killerstartups.com also goes against your case by equating Yuniti's features to those of MySpace and Facebook and by failing to mention the one thing that supposedly sets Yuniti apart from the others. In any case, it is only a blog post. The fourth reference is Yuniti's "About" page. I'm sorry, but I can find nothing to prove that Yuniti is prominent, important, distinguished, or otherwise notable. —Travistalk 15:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Delete as guidebook of no national significance. —Crazytales (t.) 14:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Green Zebra (publication)[edit]

Green Zebra (publication) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable guide book. First several pages of non-wiki, non-tomato ghits do not mention this guide in any way, with the exception of their own web site. contested prod Fabrictramp 23:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Keep. @pple 17:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jibrell Ali Salad Aadan[edit]

Jibrell Ali Salad Aadan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Possible WP:HOAX; zero Google hits... Oli Filth 22:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete No source - Esurnir 23:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
comment.We're not meant to determine how notable a subject is from Google but the results is not zero, they may not meet Wikipedia's criteria for sources, but this individual does appear in forums and blogs with a Somali focus.KTo288 21:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete per WP:SNOW(!) I have also Googled this and apart from passing references in a couple of blogs there is nothing. There is no prospect of this being anything other than a delete. TerriersFan 23:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can't Melt the Snowman[edit]

There hasn't been any announcement that there's going to be a third album by Young Jeezy. Even if he does, there's no source to cite it (I tried to Google it, but came up with nothing). MITB LS 22:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete as a copyvio advert (WP:CSD#G11, WP:CSD#G12). --Coredesat 08:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hamara dhandha[edit]

Hamara dhandha (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

I do not find evidence of notability besides one article that mentioned them on what seems an ed piece. Brusegadi 22:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Non-notable.Saganaki- 02:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment this article was deleted previously for copyright infringement. Has anything changed? If not, delete and salt. If it has, delete anyway, as NN.--Sethacus 03:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete as non-notable, failing WP:MUSIC. - KrakatoaKatie 05:00, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Complete Discocrappy[edit]

Complete Discocrappy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

An album by the band Charles Bronson, see afd below. This article, like its bands article makes no assertion of notability beyond being an album from a non-notable band. The article contains no sources and doesn't appear to meet WP:MUSIC IvoShandor 21:50, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete – no reliable sources to back up claims of notability. - KrakatoaKatie 05:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Bronson (band)[edit]

Charles Bronson (band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Article makes no assertion of notability past its unverified claims. Doesn't appear to meet the guidelines at WP:MUSIC, a cursory search for reliable sources revealed none. I prodded the article on August 17 but it was removed August 21 (diff), just so folks know. IvoShandor 21:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • You'd think the prod would have revealed that. A bunch of albums doesn't mean a band is notable. I can produce a bunch of albums, doesn't make me notable. If they are notable, then it should be no problem for reliable sources to be produced during this nomination. Closing it just maintains the status quo. As it stands there doesn't seem to be anything notable about this band other than the assertion they made music. IvoShandor 22:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I came across this page because it was linked from DeKalb, Illinois, stating they were from there. A search of the archives for the DeKalb newspaper, The Daily Chronicle, back to 2000 showed exactly zero stories, same number of trivial mentions, zero. Now if this band was notable, I would think the local newspaper would have mentioned them once in seven years. IvoShandor 22:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't call a couple fan zines reliable sources. All that stuff in the article is unverified, I suppose you can tag at as refs needed, but if the prod didn't get anyone's attention, the tag won't either. How many articles have that tag now? Not really effective at all and we shall never know if this belongs here. Delete, someone can rewrite it if they are truly notable, unreferenced cruft like this has no place in an encyclopedia though. IvoShandor 18:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As far as MRR and HC go, they're probably the most reliable sources you're going to get for a hardcore band. It's not like you're going to find scholarly resources as WP:Reliable sources suggests or even local newspaper articles for what was essentially an underground band which avoided mainsteam exposure (yet were still widely influential). Even the folks who drew up WP:MUSIC admit that "What constitutes a "published work" is deliberately broad." Wyatt Riot 20:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That seems reasonable to me. I tagged the article and put a couple citation needed tags in there, I doubt it will have much effect though. IvoShandor 21:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Do the sources on the Los Crudos article confirm that any members were in Charles Bronson, if they do that fact should be cited in the Bronson article, otherwise it is still just an unsourced assertion that doesn't do anything to establish the notability of the band Charles Bronson.IvoShandor 18:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The members are cited from a book We Owe You Nothing: Punk Planet: The Collected Interviews. I don't know if it mentions Charles Bronson, but it does seem to meet the standard for notability set at WP:MUSIC 6. dissolvetalk 19:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Los Crudos, yes. But the assertion in the Bronson article is just that, an assertion, it has no source. So the issue of verifiability remains. Los Crudos' notability doesn't necessarily establish the notability of Charles Bronson, unless what the article about Bronson says can be verified. Not sure how long this will be open but I can look in a library for the book. I am more interested in keeping content that belongs here than just seeing it deleted but if notability cannot be established it should be deleted. IvoShandor 19:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: If you're looking specifically for the Charles Bronson/Los Crudos/MK-ULTRA connection, there's an interview on the MK-ULTRA entry where it's mentioned that Ebro was in all three bands. I'm sure there's more, since googling this or this turns up quite a few pages, although a lot of them appear to link to MySpace blogs (currently blacklisted as sources) and record reviews from non-notable sites. As an aside, however, isn't the policy on reliable sources meant to apply mainly to facts that are likely to be challenged? Does anyone really doubt that the Ebro Virumbrales from one Chicago hardcore is actually the same Ebro Virumbrales from a different Chicago hardcore band? I mean, I absolutely agree that this article needs reliable and verifiable references, but that seems like such a small issue to be focusing on. Wyatt Riot 22:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I went ahead and added the ref. It's in French, but I can find no subsitute in English. Wyatt Riot 23:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Going from zero to some references isn't a small issue, while you may think it is small, if it is going to establish notablility it is highly important. Without any sources to support the assertions then it ought be deleted. Who the hell is Ebro Virumbrales? Name drops may be enough to establish notability within the circle of fans that like this type of music but generally isn't acceptable for the broader project. If the only claim to notability is, this guy is now in X band, shouldn't that be sourced? If nothing else, to avoid future AfDs? IvoShandor 23:34, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I understand what you're saying. I just think that there are some claims so obvious that references are unnecessary, like names of band members. Pretend for a second that Cream was an otherwise unknown or underground band. They don't get play on mainstream radio and the local papers won't touch them. Despite this fact, they would certainly merit inclusion on Wikipedia simply due to having otherwise notable members. But I think it's nit-picking in a way to demand that someone prove that it's the Eric Clapton or Ginger Baker playing in this underground band. I think it also creates a slippery slope, because where do you draw the line? Should there be a reference backing up the names of band members, or the genre of music? Ebro Virumbrales is a person with a marginally unusual name listed on both the Charles Bronson and Los Crudos pages, which (to me) seems like it should be sufficient to satisfy WP:MUSIC criteria. (And to answer your question, Ebro is kind of a Ginger Baker of the Chicago-area or midwest hardcore scenes. He's been in quite a few influential bands, and he's currently in a hardcore super-group, Ruination.)
But at the same time (and to play devil's advocate with myself), I do realize that if it's one of the few claims towards notability for this particular page, then it's not that out of line to demand the reference. I hope that the link I inserted earlier provides enough proof. I'll try to scare up some more references when I get the time. Wyatt Riot 07:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sources are key to establishing notability, very true. Just because someone says X was in Y doesn't make it so. If the statement "Articles that do not cite reliable published sources are likely to be deleted" isn't true then it shouldn't be included on every single page that is arrived at from a red link. IvoShandor 21:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, this article has been on wiki since December 2004, I would think if there were some sources out there, someone would have added them by now. IvoShandor 21:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete as non-notable. Sources provided included several vendor pages for purchase of his book, and articles were mostly brief mentions in pieces about network security. The article's creator has no Wikipedia edits outside this subject. While its creator and multiple SPAs seem to be very interested in this article's future, this person does not meet WP:BIO. - KrakatoaKatie 05:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Joseph Steinberg[edit]

Joseph Steinberg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
— Rajeshh (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. --Dhartung | Talk 04:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

-- Plenty of third-party sources attesting to notability are accessible from the references on the page 69.116.62.33 13:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC) 69.116.62.33 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

70.21.254.188 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Please Note: I am the author of the page and I added more material today to make clear the notability of the subject including more on his inventions, publications, and the fact that the customers of over 1,300 financial firms in the USA use, and benefit from, his inventions. Rajeshh 14:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Merge and redirect to episode list. Xoloz 13:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Toy Meets Girl[edit]

Toy Meets Girl (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

There doesn't appear to be anything "out of universe" or any significant coverage by secondary sources. Considering Robot Chicken episodes don't have plots, there's nothing that can be merged or summarized elsewhere. 17Drew 07:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination extended - There is no point in actioning just this article - there are 44 articles linked from List of Robot Chicken episodes, all in the same format. I am therefore, on procedural grounds, extending the AfD to all 44 articles and relisting to enable editors to take a view on this broader nomination. At the moment, the consensus is for merge/redirect but the only mergeable content appears to be the images. I am neutral on the nomination. TerriersFan 21:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and redirect - To the List of Robot Chicken Episodes, as hillarious as they may seem RC episodes lack any order, a user that isn't familiar with the subject would be freaked to read a plot that begins with Roddy Piper's skirt blowing up in the air and culminating with What a Twist, sorry but the program's format just doesn'r really allow for an encyclopedic entry. - Caribbean~H.Q. 10:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, TerriersFan 21:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. The two mentioned articles aren't about girl-wonder.org but about the issue of gender bias in comics, and they both only briefly mention this particular site. The article Dhartung points to is a reprint or mirror of the Mother Jones piece. Fails WP:WEB, at least for now. - KrakatoaKatie 05:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Girl-wonder.org[edit]

Girl-wonder.org (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Coverage by Mother Jones but is that sufficient to = notability? Was tagged speedy, I bring it here. Carlossuarez46 21:08, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Singularity 18:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Leafpad[edit]

Leafpad (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable software. Alksub 20:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. PeaceNT 11:38, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

LUNARR[edit]

LUNARR (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable company. No third-party references. Alksub 20:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 20:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Warner Road, Arizona[edit]

Warner Road, Arizona (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This is a standard suburban roadway, of which there are millions. The only "notable" fact, which I removed because it was a copyright violation from [7], is that it was built to connect two schools; this also describes at least thousands of roads; most major suburban roads started out as rural roads. A map of the road (Google Maps) can be seen here. NE2 20:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Its non-notable, also. And that's a good enough reason for me The only content that I can see is whining about construction. And what's up with the random picture of the chap (I assume) its named after - nothing about him in there either. Bigdaddy1981 16:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. PeaceNT 11:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

High school musical 5[edit]

High school musical 5 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

WP:NOT#CRYSTAL: there is no evidence this work will be made. Alksub 20:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete. Topic already covered sufficiently in Warrior Nun article. There is nothing encyclopedic worth merging; a redirect might be in order, except that the title is exceedingly unlikely as a search term. Xoloz 13:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Heaven and Hell in Warrior Nun Areala[edit]

Heaven and Hell in Warrior Nun Areala (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Original research religious interpretation of a comic book. No secondary sources. Alksub 20:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As for this article in particular, it began on the chief Warrior Nun Areala page. I--and despite solicitation for help, it is usually I--usually start there writing about new topics related to the comic book at hand and if they become too long, split them off into other articles. By itself, the original page was part of the central article and as part of that central article it had ample context and outside articles to be acceptable. However, the Heaven and Hell in page--originally titled Factions in page--grew very long and I decided to split it away. I merely began a new page and cut and pasted the information.

Soon after the new page was created, a marker was posted suggesting that it was inappropriate for various reasons. On seeing this, I decided to edit the page in order to conform. I cut and pasted unneeded information. I placed new information to explain the article to new readers. I re-wrote it in order to undo the "in-universe" style.

It at times was a "soap box" and I admit to taking pleasure in writing about the topic and in dissemination the information held, though I assure everyone that I was never deliberately trying to do anything but factually write about the comic book itself. Also, the religious information is mostly just what is presented in the comic book. Regardless, when I was presented with requests for alteration, I chose to follow the guidelines and stay to information exclusively related to Warrior Nun Areala. I apologize for even accidentally conducting "original research."

With that done, I thought that was enough and removed the tag, thinking that I had rewritten it according to the rules. Another tag appeared soon after. I rewrote the article further but again, I apologize for acting in haste.

At the moment, the article is half its former length with unnecessary information removed, and no-in-universe writing style. I hope that it will be deemed capable of meeting the necessary guidelines and that this article will be allowed to stay. However, I will not protest if it is deleted because I understand that the website administrators are merely trying to do their duty. (To a degree I even understand why they might delete the present version; it is so short and bare that it might best be merged with other relevant Warrior Nun articles.)

In any event, good day and good luck. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Juangarcia1982 (talkcontribs) 01:08, August 22, 2007 (UTC).

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The result was delete. Singularity 18:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Existential Cinema[edit]

Existential Cinema (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Original-research film interpretation. Alksub 20:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. John254 16:23, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Preston (military lawyer)[edit]

Robert Preston (military lawyer) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable Air Force officer. Corvus cornix 20:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I believe highly might be overstating it a bit, but I'd class him as being past-the-post by a hair's breadth, as it were. After all, I understand you've made articles for all the detainees whose names have been made public, after all? I would argue that any of those people who were not shown to have major terrorist ties would be less notable than Mr Preston here. --Agamemnon2 22:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - yes its a mess, but I don't see this as a stand alone article; there is such little detail and I don't see how more can be added. Bigdaddy1981 00:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Im not sure that there is much more to this (and, incidentally the John Carr articles) that isnt already stated (brefly) in the Guantanamo military commission article - unless an editor proposes to create an article on the requests for transfer for all the lawyers I think deleting this is the best bet. Bigdaddy1981 08:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment -- One of my frustrations with the wikipedia is that there are wikipedians with vastly different underlying design philosophies for the wikipedia's future growth, but there is no meaningful debate. Instead of discussing the underlying design philosophies, people vote for the deletion of articles that don't fit in with their person vision of the wikipedia.
  • In my opinion there are both very strong technical and esthetic reasons to prefer buidling the wikipedia from small focussed articles, as much as possible. I am willing to explain why, in detail, here, or on one of our talk pages.
  • I would love to read your reasoning as to why this article is too small.
  • I would love to read why you like big omnibus articles.
  • Cheers! Geo Swan 09:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Delete. Keep commenters below appear unfamiliar with appropriate WP guidelines and policy, as their arguments fall under WP:ILIKEIT. Deletion commenters base their suggestion in sound policy-oriented reasoning. Xoloz 13:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Zork magic[edit]

Zork magic (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete - Doesn't meet WP:CVG article criteria. Guideline reads : If information is only of note to someone who plays the game, then it probably isn't worthy. Oscarthecat 19:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of fictional spells in a fictional encyclopedia doesn't make it notable. Please take a look at Wikipedia:Notability (fiction). --Oscarthecat 06:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. PeaceNT 11:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Janan cain[edit]

Janan cain (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Probably not notable enough. Publisher of her book (Parenting Press) doesn't have an article here. Created by an account named "Parenting Press". Book has an Amazon Sales rank of 5,341. Listing here for community input. No Vote. Exxolon 19:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. John254 16:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rita Iringan[edit]

Rita Iringan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

unsourced BLP about a winner of a kids tv contest, apparently nn Carlossuarez46 19:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sources added, reworded a little, and tagged as a stub and for expansion. (Oh, and moved, at some point, too.) Tony Fox (arf!) 04:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Delete. @pple 17:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Club Penguin Locations[edit]

Club Penguin Locations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This article was previously deleted after nomination at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Club Penguin Locations. It has since been recreated, and while this new version is not exactly the same as the original, the same substantive issues apply. Specifically, the contents of the article cannot be verified by reliable, third-party published sources as required by WP:Verifiability. In addition, most of the content is prohibited WP:Original research. Finally, the article serves primarily as a game guide in contradiction of the prohibitions of WP:NOT#GUIDE. -- Satori Son 18:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Keep This does not of course preclude the relisting of articles individually or the merging of articles. There is no consensus for deletion here, and I find no overriding policy to bypass the consensus. I'll disclose that I have discounted or assigned less weight to arguments presented "I like it" and "I don't like it" and arguments presented by what appears to me, to be single purpose accounts. Regards, . Navou banter 18:22, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since Navou failed to do so, I will point out that this was a non-administrator close. i said 00:19, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dungeons & Dragons creatures[edit]

Golem (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Angel (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Gorgon (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Griffon (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Grimlock (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Hag (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Harpy (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Hell hound (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Hippogriff (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Hobgoblin (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Homunculus (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Cockatrice (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Chimera (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Choker (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Centaur (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Digester (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

(View AfD)

A long list of Dungeons and Dragons creatures that have no references beyond the monstrous manuals from which they spring (and the occasional mention in the affiliated magazine Dragon). No evidence of independent importance (i.e. notability)-Eyrian 18:54, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Please read WP:NOTE. The subjects of these articles are not notable, as they do not have any independent sources. --Eyrian 19:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm familiar with WP:NOTE. Given that there are 30 years of books by various authors that are based on the sources for these articles, many of which feature these monsters prominently (either rulebooks for the game in its various incarnations or novels based on said books), these articles provide valuable reference material for those curious about the significance of these creatures in a large corpus of fantasy material. Perhaps keep and merge into a single article is a better idea? All of these articles are very long, however, so that might not be the best solution.OcciMoron 19:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would seem not. Notability requires independent sources. Monstrous manuals released by TSR/WotC simply don't count. Neither do licensed novels. There needs to be some kind of article or book that refers to these creatures that is not affiliated with Dungeons and Dragons. --Eyrian 19:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Is www.rpg.net sufficient? Or should I cite the hundreds of non-WotC or TSR publications that relate to these monsters, made by third-party companies? There are also references to Dungeons and Dragons in popular songs, television shows, news articles, blogs, etc. etc. etc. I think if you cannot find independent coverage, you aren't looking very hard.OcciMoron 19:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Depends on the coverage. As for those references, perhaps you're looking for the deleted List of Dungeons & Dragons popular culture references. Things that relate to these monsters (How is that relation determined? ) are unlikely to contain substantial coverage in any kind of independent source. They are just not notable. --Eyrian 19:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "They are just not notable [to Eyrian]." Clearly you don't think they deserve to be on wikipedia; when presented with a way to find independent sources, you are just doubting the existence of such sources. The Dungeons and Dragon game is an Open Standard, and so independent publishing companies have released many books based on the original three core rulebooks, using much of the mythos to produce their own adventures, sourcebooks, etc, or expanding upon material covered in those original books. Simply because you have not encountered these sources does not provide grounds for deletion, no matter how many times you keep saying "It's just not notable." Please try to add more to the discussion with each comment, rather than only reiterating your past comments.OcciMoron 19:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I should also note that if these articles are deleted, then it's only fair that Template:Infobox D&D creature is deleted forthwith as well, as should Category:Dungeons & Dragons creatures with all its contents. Given the popularity of the topic of D&D among Wikipedians, all the major offenders should also be WP:SALTed with extreme prejudice and the utmost impoliteness. Unless you want to do this all over again when the wheel turns another spin. --Agamemnon2 19:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • ALSO, why stop at monsters? Just look at Category:Dungeons & Dragons character classes! If these articles on trial here now are deemed deletion-worthy, then surely all these others must follow the same logical progression? Oh, and then there's the literally thousands of internal links we need to remove linking to all these articles, and even more templates, like Template:Dungeons & Dragons character class, too! Alas, I do not envy the lot of the administrator, with his mop and bucket, trying to clean this mess. --Agamemnon2 19:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, did I mention the dozens of categories that would need to be depopulated and deleted, all requiring admin manpower? Still, I guess we have no choice, by WP:NOTE and all... --Agamemnon2 19:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll take care of it, given time. --Eyrian 19:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Well... that sounds like quite the campaign you've got planned there... My opinion is that it's an unnecessary one, however. Zahakiel 19:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • A group nomination for 200 articles shouldn't take more than two hours; one for reading, one for nominating. Just because it's difficult doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. --Eyrian 19:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • True, true. And then there's the deletion of categories, salting the most likely to be bona fide recreated, explaining the hows and whys of the decision to the relevant projects, who I'm sure would be, well, livid. And then there's removal of redlinks, which any diligent deletionist should undertake after the AFD comes up trumps. --Agamemnon2 19:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • None of this is relevant. --Eyrian 19:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I disagree, because this is all about setting a potentially far-reaching precedent. Such discussions should not be handwaved away. I most empathically request only that which is fair, that due process is undertaken in these deletion discussions. My interest is merely in seeing the job done well, or not at all. Half-measures are, as I've divulged in a previous utterance, odious. --Agamemnon2 19:54, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What precedent? That nonnotable articles should be deleted? --Eyrian 19:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • That every single article related to Dungeons & Dragons that's not independently-sourced should be deleted. Since this includes hundreds of articles created bona fide, as well as numerous categories and templates, I feel it only prudent that special care is taken, especially since Wikipedia:WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons appears not to have been consulted on the topic, which I should imagine would impact their bailiwick rather fiercely. --Agamemnon2 20:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • To the contrary, they knew. --Eyrian 20:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I would argue that that's a different case, as the AFD for that one clearly indicates that it was someone's fanwork monster that they had themselves uploaded. The difference between that and, say, a displacer beast (a monster with 30 years' history in the game) should be clear. --Agamemnon2 20:08, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Good, it should be. I warned people from day one about creating pages for every little monster, and this is a clear example of something that lacks notability.Piuro 05:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)" --Eyrian 20:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • All that's telling me is that they have, as a project, some kind of consensus for notability, but it doesn't say what it is. It doesn't automatically mean they'd agree with your style of article management. Indeed, I would hazard a guess they wouldn't agree, since at least at least a few of the ones you have listed for deletion are rather major (as far as D&D monsters go), namely hobgoblins, angels and golems. I wouldn't be so quick to lend other people's support with such flimsy evidence. --Agamemnon2 20:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quite. Your quote doesn't counter Agamemnon2's statement; The "this" that Piuro is referring to was a fan-created entity. This has nothing to do with the entries you've listed above; and "Gorgon," "Centaur" et.al. are hardly "every little monster." If you want to relist those creatures that have no mention at all outside of a D&D setting, fine, that might be worth considering; but the bull-in-a-china-shop routine has me agreeing with FrozenPurpleCube below. Zahakiel 20:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where? Name one. Dragon magazine is not independent. Neither is a licensed novel. Independent, in this case, means not published by TSR or Wizards of the Coast. --Eyrian 19:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment. The problem with moving this info to other articles (say, moving the content in Chimera (Dungeons & Dragons) to Chimera) is that the mythology purists tend to delete such info from those pages. This is why I began creating separate articles to contain info on these creatures, and the mythology folks were fine with that and left them alone. I stopped creating such articles when dealing with overzealous deletionists become too much of a pain in the ass. BOZ 19:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, it's not. These articles are all cut from the same cloth. These aren't important monsters from Dungeons and Dragons, just idle side ones. They contain a bit of habitat/biology information copied from a monstrous manual, and as many variations have been listed. That's it. --Eyrian 19:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The way you word your statement makes me think you agree there are important monsters from D&D. That's *exactly* why I think that there needs to be a real discussion of the subject, not just an AFD shotgun. Thus I suggest you try the project space to develop a consensus first. At the least, it would show an interest in getting feedback from others if you were to bring up the issue there. Might not change anything, but it would be more of an effort. FrozenPurpleCube 20:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note - These two articles should be handled in the same manner as the ones above: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Succubus (Dungeons & Dragons) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Basilisk (Dungeons & Dragons). 204.153.84.10 20:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Considering the 200-some articles in Category:Dungeons & Dragons standard creatures individually (and, yes, most of them should be deleted) isn't practical. --Eyrian 21:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Keep & Comment: I don't understand. Above, in response to Agammemnon@'s comment about the sheer amount of work it would take to delete & secure everything, you state "I'll take care of it, given time." But now you don't have time to nominate each article individually? Please take a consistant position.--Robbstrd 23:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's not my time. People complain if more than a few articles are nominated at once. --Eyrian 23:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Unless there's some sort of fundamental tie, I think that group nominations are a bad idea. It works if you're going to nominate a book for deletion, then various character pages and other sub pages should probably be a part of that nomination. They simply cannot survive without the main article. That's not the case here. Each article's merit is independent of the others. It might take a little while, but I see no practical reason why they shouldn't be nominated independently. Do a couple a day, and it'll be done a few months. -Chunky Rice 21:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • That article isn't currently being considered. Others will be nominated as necessary. If the article is good, it won't be deleted. --Eyrian 21:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Given the number of keep, close, and merge votes on this, I actually don't think you're in the position to say what will and won't be deleted here, Eyrian. You're defending this deletion nomination as if more users than just you are supporting it, when the consensus appears to be against deleting.OcciMoron 22:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Eyrian - the decision to keep or delete is not made on article quality.cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:43, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Incorrect. Notability means that there is independently published information. As in, not published or licensed by Wizards of the Coast or TSR. There is simply no material like that. --Eyrian 23:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's see--a Google search for "iron golem," for example, reveals several websites that are not owned by WotC or TSR[8]. Sounds like independent sources to me.--Robbstrd 23:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is misguided only in the sense that if you delete these articles, then by fairness and equality you should also have deleted nearly all of Wikipedia's D&D coverage, as well as oodles, oodles I say, of articles on fictional characters, creatures, places and so on. I'm not averse to these deletions, merely the unequal state I fear would result. For example, you have marked Construct (Dungeons & Dragons) with a notability tag, but not any of the other creature types that by rights are equally (non)notable. This leads me to be concerned with the nominator's thoroughness in pursuing his goals. --Agamemnon2 14:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That said, my understanding, based on Wiki-precedent, is that the nominator be invited to select whichever he believes to be the keynote case, argue that to a resoltuion, and if the final consensus (carefully not saying "vote") is to delete, then all articles in the class are forthwith deleted, and can only come back as individual, and argued, exceptions. And I would concur with the salt proposal, if the delete goes ahead. -- Simon Cursitor 13:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is a precedent: notability. Every day, articles which have no coverage in independent sources are deleted. Must these be different because they are affiliated with Dungeons and Dragons? Why? --Eyrian 13:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's take a look at use of primary sources.

Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source

Now, let's take a look at the Golems entry (first on the list). There are 13 published books referenced. What the article needs is a little cleanup. You keep saying we should read the policies and I have. There is nothing wrong with using primary sources when they are published books from a major publisher of books. Turlo Lomon 13:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing wrong with using primary sources. It's that these articles are exclusively referenced to primary sources, which doesn't meet the requirements for notability. --Eyrian 13:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment - That is an inadequate analogy. Using "Fox-only" articles for Bill O'Reilly would probably introduce NPOV problems; but not "notability" problems, which is what the nominator is arguing here. Neutrality is hardly an issue when discussing fictional entities unless blatant fanspeak starts creeping in. For the record, while a number are indeed saying "ILIKEIT," others are pointing out that such magazines and websites as are mentioned above do have a measure of independence in content, although several are published by the same companies. Due to the extensive coverage each of these topics receive, the Wikipedia policy guideline (Notability) does allow for flexibility in the cold, hard "number" of sources being demanded by the nominator. There is plenty of precedent in Wikipedia for that. Zahakiel 13:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why should these article be exempted? Why, when so many articles are required to demonstrate independent importance, should these be allowed to stay? Because you like them? These articles are only fanspeak. They're just a bunch of fictional details. As for independence, does "one of the two official magazines for source material for the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game and associated products" sound independent? --Eyrian 13:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Reply - Not because "ILIKEIT;" I actually have absolutely nothing personally to do with the games themselves. Now, there is a difference between fanspeak (how much I think this or that monster is "cool") and verified information about the in-game universe and presented as such. Of course they are just a bunch of "fictional details," they are about fictional creatures. That they are notable enough as fictional creatures is obvious if you do not ignore a) what I and others have said about the editorial nature of the sources used by the articles' authors, and b) the precedent I have mentioned at least twice now about the aspects of highly notable over-topics. As I've said several times, there is flexibility allowed in the guidelines that you appear extremely unwilling to concede, despite the precedent that exists... that is not very helpful to a neutral discussion of the subject matter. You ask, insistently, "Why should these articles be exempted?" Well, why should any articles be exempted? The fact that exemptions are allowed (if this case even amounts to an exemption) shows that there are reasons to consider such things; and they would constitute what most of the !voters are consistently pointing out: extensive mention in places unaffiliated with the playing of the actual game itself, the notability of the overall system, the precedent of other system-aspects of other notable games/works of fiction, the gray area of just what constitutes an "independent" source (different authors, and so on), and the like. At the very least, that there may be exceptions reflected IN the policy make a mass-nomination misguided, and a mass-deletion against current and past consensus(es), extremely far-reaching, and destructive. Zahakiel 14:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Extensive mention elsewhere? Prove it. These are common mythological tropes (the ones that aren't are things I've never heard of anywhere, like digesters and chokers). As I've repeatedly said, the only precedent here is a longstanding one: that articles without any kind of independent existence might get deleted. --Eyrian 14:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
You have, of course, read the list of references of each article? They are "elsewhere" from the game guides, and from the titles of the essays and articles mentioned they seem to cover details about the entities behavior, environment, etc. That is "extensive," as far as I am concerned. Asserting otherwise is simply that, an argument from assertion. I understand that you and I don't seem to have the same view of what constitutes an entirely independent source, but that is only one narrow aspect of all that I have said above. It may have been useful at the moment for you to fixate on that one, because you've never responded to the others, but I think it might be better for you to focus on the overall picture the !votes are presenting to you. I don't feel comfortable arguing with you over how very narrowly to apply a particular guideline, I don't think that accomplishes all that much; but I am content to just let the consensus speak here. Zahakiel 14:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you be specific and name the references you feel are independent? I don't think any of them are. Not one. Name one you think that is, specifically. --Eyrian 14:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Except, these articles do have some kind of independent existence, since the editors of Wikipedia and the writers of D&D are not one and the same. So the question becomes, is that sufficient on its own? Perhaps, perhaps not. However, I do not think that an adamant no-tolerance policy is the best way to develop consensus here, or even all that well-advised. I still say it'd be better to try to work with folks and come to an agreement over the acceptable threshold for inclusion. Of course, that may not work either (in fact, I know of several categories of articles where I've tried the approach, but the established base of editors refuses to even admit there is a problem). But it would look better to at least try. FrozenPurpleCube 14:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia editors are not reliable sources. The acceptable threshold is the same as it's always been: Independent, reliable sources. Notability, notability, notability. There is nothing new here, despite what some D&D focused editors might think. The criteria here are the same ones that are applied to dozens of articles every day. --Eyrian 14:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Aha, so now you're accusing us of bias, then? I must most empathically protest. I have never been against these deletions, I only demand, only demand, mark you, that it be carried out totally, logically and across all of the hundreds of D&D articles that fail to meet the standard, instead of singling this particular subset out. All or nothing is the axiom. I'm sorry if you feel that is unfair. --Agamemnon2 14:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I found it unwise to simultaneously nominate 200 articles at first blush. --Eyrian 14:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • But much more honest, as that's what being discussed here, isn't it? --Agamemnon2 15:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if you're replying to me or not, but I don't see how "Wikipedia editors are not reliable sources" applies, since nobody is asking anyone to rely on Wikipedia editors for any particular article content. At most, it's a question of Wikipedia editors being asked to decide what's appropriate for Wikipedia, which is not the same at all. As far as I know, nobody is arguing that everything in these articles can't be found in sources independent of any Wikipedia editor, but if they aren't, that's a particular concern, not a broad-based one. And no matter how much you beat the notability drum, it's not very convincing. Why? Because you're arguing it as the rule to follow, but not providing a sufficient argument as to why it should be applied. That is not convincing, it's rather the opposite in my experience. Seriously, you're not coming across as persuasive to me, and I think the biggest part of it is a failure to articulate your position in a meaningful way. Perhaps you might wish to start working from a position of what articles merit keeping, and which merging, instead of further AFDs? FrozenPurpleCube 23:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notability has always been enough. Again, it's not a matter of having to prove that notability applies, it's a matter of proving that it doesn't. Notability is a guideline, which means that it should be followed except when there is a good reason. What's the good reason? --Eyrian 15:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • How so? I have made no reference to WP:NOT here. It's all about WP:NOTE. Please actually read the relevant pages (discussions, etc) before simply trying to sling mud. --Eyrian 16:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I redacted my first statement above. However, the second one should stand. I don't mean to sling mud, but I calls 'em as I sees 'em. -Jéské (v^_^v Kacheek!) 17:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Redirects are cheap. I've explained my reasoning there. --Eyrian 17:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
However, the fact that you disregarded consensus is a bit of cause for concern, especially since it was an AfD. I understand your reasoning; what I can't fathom is why you would create a redirect instantly without asking for a review of the AfD or actually working to make the article better. -Jéské (v^_^v Kacheek!) 17:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am incapable of making that article better. There is no better. It's a lost cause. If others want to try, the history is right there for them to work on. DRV has been avoided for the moment because I can only juggle so many things at once, and people should be given a chance to take a shot at improving it. This is, however, becoming increasingly tangential. --Eyrian 17:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment - I understand your concerns about the editor, Jéské; I think, though, that personal issues aside we should try to stick to what he's doing in this debate, which is saying, quote: "notability, notability, notability," when just about everyone else is saying that even if it were a rule, it would be ignored per consensus. A guideline allows even more flexibility, and due to the notability of the over-arching game, and the fact that the "non-independence" of the sources is a matter of opinion, a retension of these articles, even allowing for future discussion of them individually, seems pretty obvious. In any event, we still have to deal with this AfD as it stands. Zahakiel 17:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - no, Zahakiel, if the rule says one thing, and misinformed editors say another, the rule always wins, as the rule is determined by the community at large rather than a SiG. See Wikipedia:Consensus. Neil  21:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reply - Oh, I've read it. Here's a highlight from the top: "Over time, every edit that remains on a page, in a sense, has the unanimous approval of the community (or at least everyone who has looked at the page). 'Silence equals consent' is the ultimate measure of consensus — somebody makes an edit and nobody objects or changes it. Most of the time, consensus is reached as a natural product of the editing process." Now, that's just about the content of pages. What you're talking about here is an entire set of articles that have remained for some time. But what I am talking about is the consensus of this AfD, which is even more clear. One editor is making a noise about pop/culture and trivia sections that have been on Wikipedia with not only the consent, but the active contribution of a large number of editors and administrators; then bringing that to bear on a massive deletion discussion. To lump all those content with the status quo together under the convenient label of "misinformed" is rather crass, certainly self-serving, and absolutely inaccurate. Zahakiel 21:46, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
P.S.: - What "rule" are you talking about, anyway? Notability? That's a useful guideline, when it's not lawyered to death. Zahakiel 21:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Articles are expected / required to illustrate the notability of their subjects. Failure to do so is usually a reason to rewrite the article. If it is impossible to show why the subject is notable, it's usually a pretty good reason for deletion (it's often a reason for speedy deletion). Yes, notability is a guideline, not a policy. That doesn't mean it's wrong. Neil  21:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, I've got no problem with that. In fact, some of my major contributions involve and have involved finding reliable sources for articles that have long been without them. I certainly don't think the guideline is wrong; what I am saying is that I believe sufficient notability can be established from the sources provided. "Independent" is not something strictly defined in Wikipedia policy; it does not necessarily mean the material has to come from entirely different publishing companies, which appears to be the demand of the nominator while citing the WP:NOTE guideline as if this was an explicit requirement of the "letter of the law." It's not; the guidelines are intended to be more widely read than that... or they would indeed be policy. And again, even there policy is subject to IAR in some rare occasions, so even then it would not be iron-clad. This is orders of magnitude away from a clear-cut case of deletable material. Zahakiel 22:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's not as unpalatable as deleting all the content... but then why did you !vote for "delete all," rather than "merge all," which seems to be what you're referring to here. Zahakiel 21:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Because these articles are so numerous and overwritten (IMO). The effor required in merging would be more than the effort required to create a new article. Or even a set of articles (such as D&D fey, D&D undead, D&D humanoids, whatever, etc). Neil  22:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, yeah... i've seen a lot of people try to invoke WP:ITSHARD to avoid doing what they genuinely believe is best for the encyclopedia. I think there would be people willing to invest that effort. Zahakiel 22:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In re Neil's argument - that's one of the arguments opponents of the Mass Pokemon Species Megamerger used to try and justify keeping them in separate articles. -Jéské (v^_^v Kacheek!) 22:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's not what (I think) Neil is saying. If the objective is a single merged article that complies with policy, it would be more effort to try and merge these articles than to just create the new one from scratch. --Eyrian 22:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes - if people preferred to merge the current articles, no problems. Neil  08:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I would actually be somewhat concerned about the idea of a putative "Creatures in D&D" article. Would it be about the origins of the various creatures? Or appearances? Usages? Changes over the different editions? It might be possible to do something, but....I imagine it would be quite hard and a lengthy process. This isn't a simple subject, but a complex one that would require deep thought before proceeding. Of course, it you do want to start that process, you're welcome to do so, but I don't suggest starting from AFDs. FrozenPurpleCube 23:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think "usage" would not be encyclopaedic, other than in the broadest sense. Neil  08:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also bear in mind that a few of these articles refer not to specific creatures, but rather to categories of creatures and how they fit into the D&D Mythos (for example, Angel describes how angels fit into the world's cosmology). The equivalent is an article on Demons in Catholicism; specific demons might not be notable, but the concept of demons would be. And does anyone think that an article on demons that only cited Church publications would be deleted because of WP:NOTE. I think instead the consensus would be as here appears to be; let's find less-dependent sources. OcciMoron 03:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I suggest trying to work with users in a more friendly and hospitable fashion than this. I certainly agree there's a lot of room for improvement, but there are better ways to obtain that improvement than this kind of thing. FrozenPurpleCube 14:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing you can do. No amount of magic-wand-waving will make these articles satisfy the notability guidelines. --Agamemnon2 16:29, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's nice. Who was talking about that? I was talking about working with other users. FrozenPurpleCube 18:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I'm sorry. I must've misunderstood your intent somehow. As it stands, I've really no interest in "assuming good faith" or "trying to get along". I'm too embittered for that anymore. I calls them as I sees them, and to me, a spade is a spade, if you catch my meaning. --Agamemnon2 18:29, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if you're embittered then that's likely to color your perceptions and treatment of others, and as such is not a good way to proceed, as it's likely to be less effective and more hurtful than need be. A positive outlook of improvement and working together may be hard to manage, but it's certainly important to Wikipedia as a whole. I suggest you see what you can do to improve your outlook. FrozenPurpleCube 18:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, I get a funny image of a poor little kobold trying to argue it's notable by pointing to the rule book. More seriously though, it's actually a bit more complicated than just saying it exists within the rules. I would suggest having a special book about the "monster" (such as done with Beholders, Mind Flayers and Illithid) or the monster itself having some wider notability beyond just being in the monster manual, such as the Drow Elves. But honestly, I'm not convinced this is definitive, it's just a few brief thoughts and would need to be extensively examined to establish any kind of position or guidelines. FrozenPurpleCube 19:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Licensed books based on the game from the same publisher? Even if those weren't closely linked, I sincerely doubt there's any kind of substantial coverage. --Eyrian 19:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I dunno, fifty to a hundred pages on a given subject? I think something encyclopedic could be done there. YMMV. FrozenPurpleCube 20:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nom asked why every monster in every game guide is not also notable. Look at WP:NOTE more closely. The guidelines for notability include more than just the hope for independent sources. While the argument that not satisfying one of those four criteria does not indicate a lack of notability, most monsters have no significant coverage in addition to lacking independent sources. Notable Dungeons and Dragons monsters, luckily, have both independent sources and significant coverage, most of the time. The ones that lack both, such as the Ssvaklor, also lack WP articles because they are not notable. Interestingly, Luke Skywalker lacks independent references. Have you nominated that article for deletion under your ridiculously strict construction of WP:NOTE? Unless you have been living under a rock for 30 years, I don't think you can argue that this character is "not notable."OcciMoron 19:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
An oversight on that article, and I've let them know. I'm sure if I nominated it for deletion, it'd be taken care of. As for these articles, I have no such beliefs. Perhaps you should consider actually finding some sources rather than trying to find ways around notability? --Eyrian 20:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you should find the sources. You are the one trying to destroy Wikipedia, after all.--71.107.174.221 20:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Now, now, there's no reason to accuse a person of trying to destroy Wikipedia. It's best to assume good faith. Now that said, I do think the standards are mistaken here, and in many cases. Why? Because Notability wasn't built with the considerations of these circumstances in mind. It's a pity, but sometimes the rules are broken. That's why the spirit is more important than the rule. FrozenPurpleCube 20:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why are they broken? I find that they work excellently. --Eyrian 20:10, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you might want to look more carefully at the situation here. Or AFD in general. There are a lot of folks who find notability a poor standard. I suppose you could dismiss folks as simply ignorant and needing to go into "rightthink" but I think that might have its own perils as well. FrozenPurpleCube 20:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, some people disagree, but I don't see any good reasons why. Regardless, the place to fight that battle is not here. Try WP:VPP. --Eyrian 20:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
And I haven't seen any good reasons to use that standard. Just arguments by default that this is the rule, so we follow it. Not persuasive. FrozenPurpleCube 20:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Third-party sources are clearly required for WP:NOTE. Yes, it is fiction. Wikipedia is not a collection of plot summaries, nor is it a collection of fictional in-universe information devoid of context, commentary, or critical analysis. Without 3rd party sources, how can we write a verifiable article, or determine a neutral point of view? Without 3rd party sources all we can do is repeat what's in the Monstrous Manual; anything else would be original reserach. I personally agree that "notability" is the wrong way to phrase it - the real issues are verifiability and NPOV, which require 3rd party sources to be achieved. Obviously, any fictional work which becomes popular will be covered by such sources. D&D has received ample coverage, for example. D&D elves have probably received enough coverage to create a good article. Obscure D&D monsters have not. Eleland 20:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Depends what you want to say. There's nothing NPOV troubling to me in "This is a Monster that appeared in Book X and is described as living in a given type of terrain, that looks like whatever it looks like" nor does it need third-party sources any more than I'd need third-party sources to confirm what is in a given episode of a television show. And I find context, commentary or critical analysis a secondary concern to accurately describing the fictional subject of an article. This isn't to say long, sprawling articles on plot are what I want, but rather that a good summary of the plot is of primary importance. And I'm not sure that the standards for fiction or notability really gave a good consideration to in-depth fictional universes. FrozenPurpleCube 20:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed not; Wikipedia is an encyclopedia of the factual, not the fictional. --Eyrian 20:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Giving facts about fiction is still factual.--71.107.174.221 20:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
LOL, very clever. :) Zidel333 21:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Optimus Prime is the leader of the Autobots in the fictional universe of the Transformers. That's a fact. Harry Potter attends Hogwarts in the stories about him. That's also a fact. Luke Skywalker? A Jedi and the son of Anakin Skywalker and Padme Amidala. All facts within the story itself. FrozenPurpleCube 21:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I wonder why we are not also having this discussion about Luke Skywalker, but I add to that the comment that the article on Padme Amidala should be considerably pruned as it contains many references to the films in which she appears, and of course, only the fact that she is played by Natalie Portman is notable because it is the only citation on that article which comes from an "independent" source. The Three Musketeers should also be grouped with these articles under nom's suggestion, because they do not meet nom's standards for notability. Dumas would be surprised, no? In fact, the article on books should probably be deleted as every one of its citations is- a book! This is clearly a conspiracy by book publishers and authors, a small community, to lead you to believe that books have had some kind of impact on human history. Shall I point out further how absurd this delete justification is?OcciMoron 21:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • 30 years of cutural impact is not insignifigant... ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 21:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OTOH, that Coffee table book is...or at least, abominable. FrozenPurpleCube 21:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not seeing anything in these articles which would substantially matter to anybody playing the game itself. FrozenPurpleCube 21:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hey, at least that one has third-party sources. --Agamemnon2 21:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Heh. You'd do well to check out the history of that article. And no, they're not. Important? Maybe. But here on Wikipedia, it's notability that matters. --Eyrian 23:20, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break[edit]

  • That's the problem with certain WikiProjects and inclusionists within them. WP:POKE went through the same crap with its articles, and there's still combat going on on Bulbasaur. -Jéské (v^_^v Kacheek!) 09:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I found it took quite a lot of effort to prune that Gundam cruft some time ago. And I think it continues to multiply. MER-C 11:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Slashme suggested that we nominate the least notable monster here after this closes if there's no deletion. That's the wrong way to go, as further rounds of the deletion game are just....non productive. I suggest instead trying to work with the project to establish a consensus as to inclusion/exclusion. There are indeed creatures that can merit articles, and as far as existing mythological creatures and D&D is concerned, it would help to establish a position on that as well. It might be desirable, for example, to have a summary article discussing the issue, as one of the influences of the game. FrozenPurpleCube 14:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Very few, if any, of these articles could be considered an in-universe guide to D&D. That would be something entirely different in nature. (For that sort of thing, I'd suggest reading one of the D&D books with a section written in that form). But any of that could be addressed with a rewrite if it were the problem. As for substantial impact on the real world, that seems a bit of an arbitrary claim, since several of these creatures have been the subject of art, miniatures, magazine articles and even books in the real world. FrozenPurpleCube 14:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not these are kept, citing Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not for things made up in school one day is absurd given that they were created and published by a notable company as part of a notable RPG. Whether these individual articles are notable is open to question, but this argument smacks of WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:IDONTKNOWIT. -Chunky Rice 22:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Tell you what, if you can take something you've made up in school one day and get it published across the globe, get several movies made around it, hundreds (if not thousands) of different novels, as well as various art, miniatures, and who knows what else, then I'd say your work might merit an article on Wikipedia. Besides, it's not like anybody is arguing that the individually created creatures merit inclusion by default. I think most people would agree that the threshold is higher than that. FrozenPurpleCube 23:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh really? Default inclusion seems awfully close to what's being argued. Again, none of the creatures here are particularly important to D&D. Why should Digester be kept, but not Ssvaklor? --Eyrian 23:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps the problem is based on your approach to discussing this issue, which is instead of establishing a baseline of acceptance, jumped straight to the deletion roundtable. As I said originally, I think you'd have been better advised to discuss the issue in the project space. This might have served to focus the issue on developing a criteria for inclusion as opposed to engendering hard feelings that tend to arise from the "AFD" approach. It's unfortunate, but the method chosen stirred up the pot in such a way that may not fix things at all, but will instead leave everybody feeling upset. As for Digester versus Ssvaklor, I take no position on that question, I do not know that I would consider them any different but then again, maybe I would. I'd have to know more about them. FrozenPurpleCube 01:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wouldn't call the DDO website (as added to Golem) a third party source. It's a licensed adaptation. --Agamemnon2 10:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add that somebody else brought up D&D classes. To put my time where my mouth is, I'll just add that despite not being overly familiar with the latest D&D stuff, I've been working on merging the less notable of those as well. Compare the old template's entries with the current Template:D&D character class (though the job is certainly not quite done yet!). SnowFire 19:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because notability is not inherited. --Eyrian 22:58, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
That's not an explanation, that's an assertion without supporting argument. FrozenPurpleCube 02:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, the argument that notability is inherited is the assertion without supporting argument. Notability pertains to a particular topic, not its parent topic. If notability were inherited, the entire universe would be notable many ontological schemes. An individual topic needs to demonstrate its notability. That is right there in WP:NOTE. Where does it make the exception that an article doesn't if it's parent does?--Eyrian 02:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
He's right there - there is no such thing as inherent notability or non-notabilty for the children of a particular article. Of course, a group nomination like this for a specific subset of the children of a subjetc seems to border on the asumption of inherent non-notability. Artw 02:52, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And that's how it goes. WP:NNOT is a failed proposal. Articles need to prove their notability, or be deleted. --Eyrian 02:57, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
There we are in agreement. Are you changing your vote to relist so that can happen? Artw 03:00, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
These articles have had years come up with sources. The policies about notability and verifiability have always been there. I simply don't believe the sources exist in this case. That's why they got ((afd1)) and not (([[Template:|]])). --Eyrian 04:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, notability is in this case nothing but a practice on Wikipedia. Is it definitive? Nope. In fact, it's explicitly stated that "However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception." . There's a reason for that. In any case, you may disagree with these creatures being notable because D&D is notable BUT the way to argue with that isn't going to be suited by saying "Notability isn't inherited" as if it were some sort of magic mantra. I'm afraid it isn't. Thus I continue to recommend that instead of simply reciting what's said elsewhere, you articulate a reasoning applicable to the specific situation. FrozenPurpleCube 03:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and my common sense tells me that random monsters from D&D don't deserve their own articles. And you've failed to provide any reason for an exception that doesn't fall apart on a cursory analysis. --Eyrian 04:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Fine, I don't think anybody here is going to say that "random monsters from D&D" merit their own articles. I think many people would accept a criteria that is more specific than that. Perhaps you'd care to start a discussion on the subject itself? FrozenPurpleCube 14:27, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm quite willing to do so, but I really don't think it would boil down to a restatement of notability. --Eyrian 17:22, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, whatever you think might happen, it would still be a better way to cover the issue in a way other than AFD. Try some of the existing wikiprojects, or the village pump. FrozenPurpleCube 17:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I made a mistake in my post. The correct meaning should now be clear. Notability is the bar that has been set, and it is the bar that always should be set. It's got very good reasons behind it, and exceptions should be made in individual cases, not general ones. --Eyrian 17:57, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
This is pretty clearly User:71.107.174.221. --Eyrian 06:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, so now that your "arguments" are failing, you are relying on ad hominem attacks? I am not User:71.107.174.221. True, this is a new account I have just created, but I already know a bit about editing Wikipedia, and D&D is a fairly well-known subject, to say the least. Excuse me for stumbling upon your bad-faithed deletion nomination.--ElminsterAumar 06:16, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How is that ad-hominem? I'm not saying you're a bad person; just that you've already contributed here. How convenient that for every one of your first contributions, you just stumbled upon a page I've been working on...--Eyrian 06:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh, so I suppose you are not familiar with the Special:Contributions/Eyrian page?--ElminsterAumar 06:21, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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The result was delete. PeaceNT 11:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

João Carlos Heidemann[edit]

João Carlos Heidemann (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Youth players are not notable as per WP:BIO and WikiProject Football standars —Lesfer (t/c/@) 18:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related pages for the same reason:

Norberto Murara Neto (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Robert Júnior Souza Silva (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Raul Guilherme Martins (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Léo Alves (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Douglas Ribeiro Sousa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Ronaldo Luiz Alves (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Bruno Costa de Souza (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Josileudo Rodrigues de Araújo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Vinícius Sarturi Hess (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Deivid Willian da Silva (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Renan Rodrigues da Silva (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Douglas Maia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Eduardo Áquila (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Willian Araújo Costa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Douglas Catita (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Fernando Mineiro (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Michel Hoff Correia Rocha (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Afonso da Silva Santos (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Washington Cesar Santos Júnior (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Eduardo Salles (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
João Guilherme Estevão da Silva (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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The result was keep. John254 16:05, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Eugenio Corti[edit]

Eugenio Corti (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Article about a supposedly popular living author. Completely unsourced. There is an article about him on Italian Wikipedia, but that too is completely unsourced. This article (the English one) has been tagged as unsourced since June. --Tony Sidaway 18:36, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete. ¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 21:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Greek Naturist Society[edit]

Greek Naturist Society (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Reason the page should be deleted This article is about Naturism and has no information about the Greek Naturist Society, see discussion  Andreas  (T) 18:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This comment made me look at the article, and then I nearly burst out laughing. --Rocksanddirt 19:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the promotinal content and then labeled it ((db-notenglish)) Andreas  (T) 21:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete – no sources to back up status/accomplishments, so it clearly fails WP:BIO. - KrakatoaKatie 06:31, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fazle Rabbi[edit]

Fazle Rabbi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This article is supposed to be about a highly accomplished writer--it gives a long list of his supposed accomplishments. However I'm concerned at the inadequacy of the sources. It doesn't seem to be verifiable. Perhaps we should pay some attention to finding out whatever about this fellow is verifiable and removing the rest, or alternatively we should delete it. --Tony Sidaway 18:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, --Hirohisat Kiwi 02:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was redirect to World's largest airlines.. -- John Reaves 16:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of largest airlines by category[edit]

List of largest airlines by category (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This article is essentially a duplication of World's largest airlines. The other article has just had a speedy keep in response to a proposal for deletion, so this article with almost identical information (not laid out as well) and talk page is redundant. Harry was a white dog with black spots 18:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that this article is a duplicate of one that we have already determned should be kept. Harry was a white dog with black spots 09:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ooops, in that case, speedy delete for duplicate content and tagged Corpx 16:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete as WP:NOR and lacking any verifiable sources, then redirect to Cult film. The article is inaccurate, as pointed out by Tony Sideaway, and it duplicates parts of Cult film and Cult following. The first AfD go-round elicited pledges to clean it up and improve it, but it didn't happen. - KrakatoaKatie 06:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cult classic[edit]

Cult classic (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

A long list was recently removed from this article and used to create a separate article, List of cult classics, which is now listed for deletion (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of cult classics). But I'm concerned about this article. The article seems to be the opinion of just one or two people, seems to have been written from a particular national perspective, and has been marked as unsourced since last listed for deletion in May, 2007. The article seems to have been written in such a vague way that it would be possible to replace the term "cult classic" with "popular film, book, play or novel" throughout.

It's poorly researched. For instance, Dumb and Dumber was far from the start of Jim Carrey's career; he had enjoyed considerable mainstream success in Ace Ventura: Pet Detective and The Mask. And his co-star Jeff Daniels was by then a Hollywood veteran, enjoying critical acclaim in Woody Allen movies such as The Purple Rose of Cairo, and box office success in Arachnophobia. It seems that this article has consistently failed to attract knowledgeable writers who can do justice to the subject matter, and we'd probably be better off without an article here. --Tony Sidaway 18:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • What was tried, and where? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that link. Zagalejo 19:54, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • The link points to the first AfD, four months ago, where this was stubbified and nobody has made it any better since then. Corvus cornix 20:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, this isn't irretrievably OR. Definitions of the term do seem to exist. Zagalejo 20:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • So many books have been written about the subject that original research is unnecessary. No argument there! Which means that deletion is not the answer; clean-up is. If a topic is deemed notable, we don't usually delete it unless there there are problems with libel or copyright infringement. Unfortunately, I do not own any of the relevant books on this subject, so there's not much I can do myself. A couple editors have expressed interest in adding refs, so let's see what they come up with. Zagalejo 22:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I had initially thought that cult following was just about the fans themselves, but the scope of that article appears to be much broader. So, OK, I'll concede that we don't really need a separate article for "cult classic". I'm still opposed to outright deletion, though, since "cult classic" is obviously viable as a search term and can be turned into a redirect. Zagalejo 01:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the Cult Classics page! It really doesn't fall into other catagories as well as some people should like. Besides that, the reasons that other people list are completely bogus. People have already volunteered to clean it up as soon as possible, so at least give them a chance to before tearing it down!!! As it was already mentioned, Wikipedia would be half gone if all the articles that are 'poorly researched' were deleted, then we would be left with hardly any articles! Keep the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.3.178.181 (talk) 16:27, August 26, 2007 (UTC) 71.3.178.181 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

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The result was delete. Singularity 18:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rock Lab Records[edit]

Rock Lab Records (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable label that fails to establish any notability Lugnuts 18:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep Mr.Z-man 01:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sit on My Face[edit]

Sit on My Face (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete - prod disputed based on the "iconic" status of Monty Python. WHile the Pythons are indeed highly notable, that notability is not inherited by every single thing they've ever done. The song does not appear to have been the substantial subject of reliable sources and thus is not independently notable. It also fails the proposed notability guideline for songs as it did not chart. Otto4711 18:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - merely being mentioned in a review of a show or being noted in an interview does not constitute coverage that is substnatially about the song, which is the standard. They also performed Sit on My Face or George Harrison really liked it and the like are not instances of substantial coverage of the topic. Otto4711 21:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment These quotes are from reliable sources that attest to the song's notability, not by virtue of "in-depth" coverage, but rather the choice of language in their description. Eliz81(talk)(contribs) 21:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you show me where at WP:N or WP:MUSIC it says that passing mentions establish notability based on the words used in the passing reference? Otto4711 23:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no mention in the article of these supposed threats. Otto4711 01:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete – clear consensus. - KrakatoaKatie 07:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Silly Job Interview[edit]

Silly Job Interview (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete - prod disputed based on the "iconic" nature of the source program. The article clearly fails WP:PLOT as it is nothing but a plot summary of a Monty Python sketch. The individual sketch is not independently notable and the notability of Monty Python is not inherited by all of its sketches. Otto4711 18:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. PeaceNT 11:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Afonso da Cruz Araújo Junior[edit]

Afonso da Cruz Araújo Junior (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Youth players are not notable as per WP:BIO and WikiProject Football standars —Lesfer (t/c/@) 17:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. PeaceNT 11:51, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Hilter and the Minehead by-election[edit]

Mr. Hilter and the Minehead by-election (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete - prod disputed on the basis of the "iconic status" of Monty Python. I certainly do not dispute that Monty Python is highly notable but since notability is not inherited it does not follow that every single sketch from every single episode also is. This individual sketch is not notable on its own and the article is also a clear violation of WP:PLOT as it is nothing but a description/plot summary. Otto4711 17:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. PeaceNT 11:52, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Medical Love Song[edit]

Medical Love Song (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete - disputed prod. There is no notability for this song, as it has not been substantially the subject of reliable sources. It also fails the proposed guideline for songs at WP:MUSIC. The notability of Monty Python does not mean that everything they've ever performed is notable. Redirecting to the album article is also satisfactory but since the prod has been disputed, best to bring it here. Otto4711 17:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete – clear consensus. - KrakatoaKatie 07:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Restaurant Abuse/Cannibalism[edit]

Restaurant Abuse/Cannibalism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete - prod removed by editor stating that "It's Monty Python so no rules apply." Since the last time I checked, Wikpedia is not an anarchist site, rules do apply to this article, and it specifically violates the rule WP:PLOT. The article is a plot description of a Monty Python sketch which is not notable outside the show. The unquestionable notability of Monty Python's Flying Circus is not inherited by every five-minute sketch from every single episode. Otto4711 17:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Especially in light of the recently-concluded Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dungeons & Dragons creatures, it seems there are reasonable disagreements regarding the encyclopedic notability of these creatures. As the article is sourced, policy does not demand its deletion, and the discussion below offers no definitive result. Xoloz 13:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Succubus (Dungeons & Dragons)[edit]

Succubus (Dungeons & Dragons) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Nonnotable example of a fictional demon. Fails to have any substantial real-world impact, reported in reliable sources. Eyrian 17:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

  • And how do you derive that significance? Please read WP:NOTE. --Eyrian 18:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Where? I don't believe it. --Eyrian 22:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I've seen what you consider to be likely or unlikely to have independent material out there and am concerned that you have jumped to conclusions in the past. The world of published material really is quite huge. No specific material jumps to mind straightaway but on the balance of what I know about the game, the creature and other material I am pretty sure there will be something. A more constructive way to improve wikipedia is by using notability tags rather than jumping to AfD. This approach is proving disruptive and upsetting to many users and will ultimately undermine WPs growth.cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't found it disruptive at all. All of Wikipedia's good articles continue humming along just fine. I know these games well enough, and I'm equally certain that there is nothing of importance. The succubus is a minor monster in D&D, quite aside form the signature few that it developed and popularised. --Eyrian 22:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Her name is Fall-From-Grace. You can read about her here. Turlo Lomon 08:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This isn't about the general article about the demon. This is about the specific Dungeons and Dragons incarnation, which simply doesn't have such evidence. --Eyrian 12:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
    • The adventure I mentioned is intended for use with the Dungeons and Dragons core rulebook. It seems self-defeating to exclude non-Wizards sources from this discussion because they aren't Dungeons and Dragons branded, but demand independent sources.Sci girl 04:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • That would be true if we were talking about a different article, but this is about specifically the Dungeons and Dragons incarnation of the Succubus. Therefore, a source must explicitly refer to that particular game. And yes, it's highly unlikely that such a source exists. That's why this article should be deleted. --Eyrian 13:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
        • I don't understand how a campaign stating "Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons(R) Player's Handbook, Third Edition, published by Wizards of the Coast" doesn't explicitly refer to Dungeons and Dragons. Sci girl 01:34, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • No, no. The campaign module, being published by WotC, is not an independent source.The Succubus Bride may or may not refer to the D&D succubus, which I find highly unlikely unless it's licensed by WotC. --Eyrian 04:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
            • How can it be both not independent and not refer to Dungeons and Dragons? As I stated before, it is published by Guildhouse Games, not by Wizards of the Coast; however it is explicitly intended for use with the three core rulebooks. I believe the succubus in it is from the Monster Manual, maybe advanced with a few character levels. I can check that. Sci girl 04:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
              • Oh, I'm sorry, I was confused; I thought you were referring to separate products. --Eyrian 04:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. PeaceNT 12:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First Trust Portfolios[edit]

First Trust Portfolios (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Article consists of promotional material for non-notable company Jeremy Tobacman 17:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete. — Malcolm (talk) 18:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

DVD-R Tools[edit]

DVD-R Tools (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

nn product without any 3rd party sources showing notability Carlossuarez46 17:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete An admin decided it was not speedy delete, but it does not assert its notability.  Tiddly Tom  18:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. PeaceNT 12:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Britain's Greenest College[edit]

Britain's Greenest College (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

More an unreferenced news item than an article. Merge into Pershore College or what? -- RHaworth 17:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete. TW is unwise in this case, as the neologism is unsourced, and potentially offensive. (All Wiktionary entries should be verifiable, of course; but, it is especially important for possible slurs to be well-documented. Xoloz 13:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Niggin[edit]

Niggin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Dubious neologism Rackabello 17:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's basically what a transwiki is. J-stan TalkContribs 21:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. There was a consensus for the article to be kept and this position is underpinned by some significant media coverage. TerriersFan 22:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would not have called what I read below as "a consensus". Maarten1963 (talk) 17:50, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Elspeth Campbell[edit]

Mild delete as this is a relatively uncertain area. Her claim to notability is as the wife of the leader of a political party. Of all the other British post war third party leaders' wives, the only one with an article is Marion Stein (the second Mrs Jeremy Thorpe) whose notability rests on her musical career rather than her marriage. There are no articles on Sarah Kennedy (that page is for another woman), Jane Ashdown, Deborah Owen, Jennifer Jenkins, Laura Grimond or Caroline Thorpe. Timrollpickering 17:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Notability is not transferable. Just knowing (or sleeping with) somebody notable is not notability. --Dhartung | Talk 04:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Multiple good ref's mean she meets the basic criteria - she is notable in her own right Kernel Saunters 09:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Jaranda wat's sup 23:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

City Center Plaza[edit]

City Center Plaza (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Microstub on a dead mall in Wisconsin. Fails WP:RS and WP:V. Tagged for orphan since April. Ten Pound Hammer(Broken clamshellsOtter chirpsReview?) 17:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jaranda wat's sup 23:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Champlain Centre North[edit]

Champlain Centre North (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

One of two non-notable malls in Plattsburgh. Fails WP:N, WP:V, WP:RS. I've tried to source this article before with no luck.

I am also listing its defunct twin:

Champlain Centre South (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Ten Pound Hammer(Broken clamshellsOtter chirpsReview?) 17:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Jaranda wat's sup 23:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Diamond Run Mall[edit]

Diamond Run Mall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable mall in Vermont, fails WP:RS. Ten Pound Hammer(Broken clamshellsOtter chirpsReview?) 17:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. PeaceNT 12:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bridge (Star Trek)[edit]

Bridge (Star Trek) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Unencyclopedic, doesn't require its own article. Could possibly be rolled into a Star Trek or Starship main article. Problems with WP:V Rackabello 17:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. PeaceNT 12:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Camp Meriwether[edit]

Camp Meriwether (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Unsourced, no assertion of notability whatsoever. Could be a WP:CSD#A7 candidate actually. Húsönd 16:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. PeaceNT 12:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Johann Gambolputty[edit]

Johann Gambolputty (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete - prod removed by anon without comment. This fails WP:PLOT in that it is a plot description of a Monty Python character/sketch that has no real-world notability. Otto4711 16:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Neil  11:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reginald James MacGregor[edit]

Reginald James MacGregor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

The page fails to meet WP:BIO and WP:N - there is a single source which only lists his works, which were produced between the 1920s and 1960s, and have apparently not been produced since. From my interpretation of WP:BIO, volume of work is not a criteria for notability unless I am mis-reading it. In additon, all text on the page barring the list of works is unsourced and looks a lot like WP:OR without one. All of the external links found in the text are to the illustrators, which do not even appear to link to illustrations of MacGregor's books. Ultimately there is no significant coverage. It has met none of the criteria for WP:BIO, particularly none of the list of creative professionals (not widely cited, did not originate a new concept, no well-known work or body of work, and not a monument, exhibition, subject of critical attention or permanent collection. At minimum, to remain on wikipedia it would require significantly more sources than the entry in a library catalogue. WLU 16:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also note the opening sentence: "Little is yet known of Reginald James MacGregor". I'm pretty sure he's dead, so our chances of expanding the page further are probably minimal. WLU 16:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus, default to keep. Neil  11:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Spartacus Enterprises[edit]

Spartacus Enterprises (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Contested prod. This article does nothing to establish the company's notability and currently reads like an ad--should probably be as notable as Good Vibrations or Babeland to have an article Katr67 16:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus to delete, although it would be appreciated if the numerous sources and references provided in this discussion were to wander their way onto the article; if following their addition, there is still a feeling the article should be deleted, no prejudice towards discussion being reopened. Neil  11:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

John Brignell[edit]

John Brignell (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable; fails WP:BIO and WP:PROF. The only secondary sources ever provided are critical, and consist of links to Tim Lambert's blog and to brief coverage in the Skeptic's Dictionary. This is not "non-trivial coverage in independent, reliable secondary sources." The article is a WP:COATRACK and POV fork to present Brignell's minoritarian views out of context. MastCell Talk 16:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: While the earlier version is indeed longer, it contains no additional secondary sources. It merely expounds at greater length on Brignell's views - so it suffers from the same lack of notability and compounds that problem by functioning as a POV fork and WP:COATRACK by regurgitating Brignell's minoritarian views out of context. The older version is actually less NPOV, because it gives more undue weight to his views without providing any independent sources to back up their notability. MastCell Talk 21:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As for actual evidence for WP:PROF, there's the two published books, and the learned society fellowships. I'm working on a fuller list. the length exposition of his views in he orig. version bothered me too. i did not add it back when I added the academic documentation. DGG (talk) 20:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The books themselves don't convince me, although if the reviews and outside sources indicate that they're influential, that would be a different matter. The fellowships may satisfy the "notable award" provision, though I'm not entirely sure of that. MastCell Talk 20:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, if we find one more link to in-depth coverage such as the Telegraph's book review, he might make the cut. The BBC piece only features a passing mention. Sandstein 19:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, here's another review from the Telegraph,[25] plus some mentions there as an expert:[26],[27]; I can't find the Times HES review online, but it's quoted in full on Brignell's website, [28], along with others from Secure Computing & Journal of Economic Issues, and surely someone has access to check? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Espresso Addict (talkcontribs) 20:17, August 22, 2007 (UTC).
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The result was delete; if a expert comes, I will reconsider. Singularity 18:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pressure extension[edit]

Pressure extension (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

"Pressure extension" seems to be a known term in the engineering literature on natural gas. As a very specific topic, the article might be worth a merger to pressure measurement or similar articles. However, the present article is not suited for a merger. Its sources are very imprecisely cited, and it is almost incomprehensible (not even the symbols in the formulas are defined completely). In search of an expert, I contacted WikiProject Physics, WikiProject Technology, and WikiProject Energy, plus the original author; but I reached no one who could do a cleanup, or say where the article should be merged. So, as a last resort, I propose to delete the article as unverifiable. -- Sent here as part of the Notability wikiproject. --B. Wolterding 16:36, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was move. Note that during moving the article, someone managed to remove the AFD header from the article, which is not a good thing to do, and would technically invalidate this AFD. Neil  11:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of inventions shown on American Inventor[edit]

List of inventions shown on American Inventor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Most of the inventions in the article are not notable. The article needs to be moved to List of finalists on American Inventor, and list the 16 total who got to spend 50,000 dollars in season 1 and 2. Codelyoko193 TalkEditor Review 19:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Singularity 18:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

General Pierce Bridge[edit]

General Pierce Bridge (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Contested prod. Article offers no information beyond location and no sources. Appears to be nothing special or notable in construction. Google has 21 unique hits without Wikipedia, a couple of local media reports on renovations, the rest as a place marker in directions or stories about bodies being pulled out of the river. Nuttah68 16:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What are the limits on that? For instance, VerruckteDan has said that while this bridge may be notable, US Route 3 Bridge over the Connecticut River is probably not. See Talk:General Pierce Bridge Denimadept 20:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This is precisely why we have WP:LOCAL and WP:BIAS. Notable local places are still notable even if local, as long as WP:RS exist. Wl219 03:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neither of those are policies or guidelines Corpx 04:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • So? Doesn't mean they're not worthy of consideration. Your comment is quite short-sighted. Wl219 04:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
They should be considered, but should be given the same weight as other essays etc that have no backing through consensus Corpx 05:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'll look for that too! Denimadept 00:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For that matter, here's a bibiliography! Denimadept 00:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Delete. Spare discussion, but sufficient in the case of an article lacking WP:RS (and thus, failing WP:V), where policy demands deletion. Xoloz 14:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Robbins-Gioia[edit]

Robbins-Gioia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Nonnotable company, no independent sources, includes trivia such as the typeface used in the corporate logo. Disputed prod. NawlinWiki 16:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Singularity 18:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Butt (tribe)[edit]

Butt (tribe) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Totally unsourced. Could be true, but just as likely a hoax, given the name. The heading "Famous Kashmiri Butts" just screams hoax. Even if there is a core of truth, in it's current unsourced state any part of it could be hoax-fodder. IMHO just not useful as it is. TexasAndroid 15:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment That's this edit by an IP account -- but most of the editors are IPs. --Dhartung | Talk 21:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm thinking now that it's part real and part joke. Likely a real name that has been overcome by hoaxy data. So part of the question is, is there any way to separate the real from the hoax, especially given the lack of sourcing for whatever may be real. And is such an project worth the effort? And without any sourcing, I really do not think it will be worth the effort. - TexasAndroid 17:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Delete. Article completes lacks WP:RS; hence, there is nothing able to merged to any other article, consistent with the core policy WP:V. The keep arguments are very odd -- they argue for the notability of the code which is not really in question, as the code has its own article. This separate article here, as it is written now, cannot be allowed to remain, given the requirements of WP:V. If this content belongs with Konami code, it must be sourced first. Xoloz 14:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of Konami code references in popular culture[edit]

List of Konami code references in popular culture (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete - fails WP:NOT#DIR, fails WP:TRIVIA. Otto4711 15:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • The same way as always: With reliable, independent sources. How is the importance and relevance of a particular cultural reference determined? It cannot be self-determining, so it must be done by someone else. --Eyrian 16:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  1. Delete (and do not merge back),
  2. Keep and do not merge back
  3. (Selectively) merge back
I think this particular one is a case for the latter (and have now highlighted so above) because we 're talking about a pop culture phenomenon in any case and one article and one separate list should be able to accommodate all verifiable material.--Tikiwont 14:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. PeaceNT 12:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Francis Stronge[edit]

Francis Stronge (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non notable. Being a knight doesn't make someone notable, neither do either of the positions he held. No non-trivial coverage in secondary sources, fails WP:BIO. Stramash 15:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment The guideline that may have made them notable (WP:ROYAL) was rejected, there's nothing in WP:BIO about diplomats, and this is nothing more than a phonebook entry. Stramash 15:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Very justified nomination but now greatly improved. It is a great pity, that as with the various members of the Arbithnot family, the only way that certain pages can ever hope to be improved is by nominating them here. Giano 07:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Ignoring the conflict of interest. That is not one of the highest honours of the British Government, it us a "dip service gong" handed out routinely to diplomats going to posts where the host country will be offended if they are sent anyone without a title. Half the present day residents of Dolphin square have similar decorations. I see we have others of this "illustrious" family who fail to even achieve that. Giano 16:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The "other" you refer to was an MP. --Counter-revolutionary 16:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thank God for that - and this one John Stronge? Giano 16:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment'- I have no WP:COI. The nominator is apparently not a new user, no matter what his edit count suggests. With all assumption of good faith this seems odd. --Counter-revolutionary 16:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment No ad hominem attacks please. Stramash 18:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't an ad hominem attack. I apologise if you see it as one.--Major Bonkers (talk) 20:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Which part of WP:BIO does he meet? Stramash 18:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK lets keep and ask "Counter-revolutionary" expand. Is there anything to add? The problem here is that certain editors are determined to have as many baronets as possible listed on the project. Now the reasons this is a problem is that they are sacrificing quantity for quality - and that damages the encyclopedia's reputation. I don't know if that is because they are unable to write a proper article, or there is so little to report on these nonentities, perhaps they feel akin to these people or maybe have a hidden agenda. I don't know. Whatever the answer Wikipedia is not a "phone book". These people need to learn how to write a proper useful page or give up! The reason for this being that I and quite a few others are sick of these daft sycophantic pages that achieve nothing but give their own relations a quick and very cheap thrill. Giano 19:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
He was not a baronet! --Counter-revolutionary 20:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
FGS don't be so facetious, do you truly imagine anyone gives a damn wether he was a baronet or a knight. Only to the English are these things so important. Just write a decent page explaining why he is notable. Giano 21:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus. CitiCat 01:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Robin Hood in popular culture[edit]

Robin Hood in popular culture (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete - directory of loosely associated topics. The mere presence of Robin Hood, or a character who "aspires" to be Robin Hood, or who in the opinion of the editor who spots it may be in some way based on Robin Hood but lacks sourcing that says so, doesn't mean that the things bear any relationship to each other. Otto4711 15:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • No, having a "common cultural referent" is not inherently an indicator of a close connection. I'm sorry, but as many times as you trot this particular pony out, it's still not true. I'm also curious to know how you know what I did or didn't do prior to nominating this article. Unless you're the pregnant girl in the cubicle next to me, I don't really think you're in a position to say. Otto4711 16:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I made the assumption that had you seen you wouldnt have nominated. I really did, the sources are so pertinent. DGG (talk)
well, there's Something Completely Different: British Television and American Culture By Jeffrey S. Miller" [36] "John Drake, like Robin Hood and Lancelot of old, traveled from scenic locale to scenic locale, encountering and besting villains ranging from IRA terrorists ..." There's one academic author who thinks notability of RH in pop culture is a real topic. U Minnesota Press published it. DGG (talk) 03:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You are once again making the faulty assumption that because something is mentioned in the same breath as something else that the two things must be related. The sentence you quote doesn't have anything to do with the supposed "notability of RH in popular culture." Otto4711 13:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
a few of the ones cited here surely do, such as the one by Dbromage above. They show the article is sourceable; it doesn't have to be finished to be kept. DGG (talk) 22:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Speedy delete this and several other articles on albums by the same artist. None of them assert notability (speedy category a7). NawlinWiki 16:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lyrical Dreamz[edit]

Lyrical Dreamz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non notable album, artists and no reliable sources found on google. Wikidudeman (talk) 15:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 20:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

C++ examples[edit]

C++ examples (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This page is a list of examples of code in the programming language C++. It seems to be the sort of software guide prohibited by WP:NOT#GUIDE, no pages in article space link to it, and the main C++ page already includes embedded examples of code. As such, I think it should be deleted. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 14:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not necessarily. After !voting here, I almost proposed an AfD for Fortran code examples, but I actually think moving the examples from the Fortran article into a separate page worked out very well. The examples there are more fully developed and demonstrate the historical development of the language. The idea of creating a separate page of C++ examples might not have been that bad originally, if it had been followed through, but it doesn't fit with the current C++ main article. --MediaMangler 18:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. PeaceNT 11:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Three section staff in popular culture[edit]

Three section staff in popular culture (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete - directory of unassociated items that have nothing in common beyond happening to have included a particular weapon. This tells us nothing about the weapon, nothing about the fiction from which use of the weapon was included, nothing about any relationship between the items (as there is none) and nothing about the real world. Oppose merger of any of this information to any other article as it is just as trivial as part of another article as it is as a standalone. Otto4711 14:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. PeaceNT 12:00, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gods of rock and roll[edit]

Gods of rock and roll (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

If this isn't original research I don't know what is. cholmes75 (chit chat) 14:50, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. CitiCat 01:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

David Shafer (baseball player)[edit]

David Shafer (baseball player) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This article was previously deleted at AfD. DRV overturned this closure, with the consent of the deleting admin. Still, weak delete given notability concerns for minor-league ballplayers. Xoloz 14:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note: several votes by sockpuppets stricken out. Voice-of-All 19:00, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It was only a couple of users not everyone Jaranda wat's sup 18:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
They have every minor-leaguer, not only him, you obviously have WP:BIAS for minor leaguers, if this article gets kept, that doesn't give you permission to restore the whole Kinston Indians minor-league baseball team articles which was validly deleted in AFD just to let you know. Again like I mentioned in the DRV, that is borderline at best for meeting WP:BIO guidelines and there is discussion on talk. Jaranda wat's sup 19:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It was you and Kinston that I saw in the talk, not concensus, Kinston obviously has a WP:BIAS for minor league players, and many of his articles on them were deleted in AFD. So it's basiclly you. Jaranda wat's sup 19:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
FYI. I have never had an article to be deleted. All those articles on Kinston Indians players were written by other individuals. Furthermore, I do not have a bias for minor league players, I have a bias for following the rules and the guidelines set out in WP:BIO which clearly allow all athletes who have played in fully professional leagues to be included. If you don't like the guidelines, work on changing those. Kinston eagle 20:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Jaranda, you must not have read through that thread... several other people in that discussion were in general agreement on the issue... Perhaps you should address your own bias on this issue. Spanneraol 19:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok three users instead of two, one of whom is keep all minor leaguers who ever played, which that was quickly rejected still doesn't indicate consensus, I don't really have a bias with this as much as Kinston though, I just don't think they are notable, unless they are a top prospect, which he isn't. Jaranda wat's sup 19:54, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd like to see this discussion openned up again also. I would also like to see the a discussion run at the same time on the notability of players in lower tier soccer (european football) leagues. Sasha Callahan 21:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Which sources are you referring to? The 2 sources in the References section of the article only give him a passing mention, as being a member of the team. That's hardly significant coverage. If they had a whole paragraph about him that would be significant coverage, but a passing mention isn't. The two links in the External links section are not suitale for assessing notability, as they are not independent enough. —gorgan_almighty 10:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are lots of publications that mention Shafer in detail; they just aren't in the article right now. For example, I'm adding his profile from the 2007 Baseball America Prospect Handbook even as you read this. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 12:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • If there are reliable independent secondary sources on this person, then by all means add them. —gorgan_almighty 13:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article contains more sources than many baseball player articles, whose primary sources are usually just the baseball-reference site. Spanneraol 20:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know anything about this particular book, but the "Baseball America Prospect Handbook 2007" reference seems to be the only one that possibly offers significant coverage in a secondary source publication. In other words, it's the only reference currently in the article that might possibly be able to assert notability. —gorgan_almighty 10:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Where is this discussion happening? Spanneraol 23:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, the main (read: most valid) argument for deletion here is the lack of reliable secondary sources that give the subject more than trivial mention. —gorgan_almighty 13:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply: That is your argument, of course. The argument of just about every other Delete voter is on notability grounds, and several are citing WP:BASEBALL as if the mere mention of the Wikiproject was enough.  Ravenswing  14:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reliable secondary sources are required to establish notability. An argument of reliable secondary sources therefore IS an argument of notability. Several people have argued from the perspective that minor-league players are inherently un-notable, but WP:N takes precedence in defining what is notable or not. If there are non-trivial reliable secondary sources attributed to the article subject, then it is notable. If there aren't, then it isn't. The only contender for a non-trivial reliable secondary source in this article is the "Baseball America Prospect Handbook 2007" reference, but I don't know enough about that book to determine if it qualifies. In my opinion, arguments for and against this article should now centre on the suitability of that one source, since no one has found any others. —gorgan_almighty 16:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's reliable but it lists all minor leaguers, even the backups etc, in cases like this the book isn't really that useful Jaranda wat's sup 16:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • If its all-inclusive like that, then it can't really be used to assert notability. —gorgan_almighty 16:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Only one editor is WP:BASEBALL as an argruement though, and of course should be discounted, same with the WP:BASEBALL protest votes as well, like several of them above. The issue is that it's sooooooo borderline in WP:BIO that it really doesn't include them, as some people consider them to not be the highest proffesional league out there, there are tons of AFDs on minor leaguers that ended up as delete, this minor leaguer is no different than the rest. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 19:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nice, now the admin who deleted this article in the first gets to decide which keep votes are simply protest votes. New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 19:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That fact that it is not the highest professional league has no bearing in this matter. WP:BIO only requires that they play in a "fully" professional league, not the "highest" professional league. All Minor Leaguers play in a "fully" professional league, as the minors are fully professional. Smashville 19:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is going to be discussion in the proposed athletes notabilty page, there is some comments in WP:BIO talk page though. I removed the WP:BASEBALL guidelines. I have to go to class so I'll comment in a few hours Jaranda wat's sup 19:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that a discussion exists about something does not make it a policy. Smashville 20:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Speedy delete g1, patent nonsense (rock band allegedly founded in 1787). NawlinWiki 16:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Murphy Boys[edit]

The Murphy Boys (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Over the top band bio, fails notability, somewhat of a tongue in cheek WP:HOAX. Eliz81(talk)(contribs) 14:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete (requested by author). PeaceNT 11:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vicki Aznaran[edit]

Vicki Aznaran (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

More Scientologycruft, fails WP:BIO. This non-notable person did some affidavits in court appearances (and subsequently went back and recanted them). Gets 155 unique Ghits and most of them are blogs, personal homepages, and junk. wikipediatrix 14:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but personal homepages aren't valid sources per WP:RS and WP:V. wikipediatrix 19:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
depends what the records are. I don't think a person's affidavit is not intrinsically reliable unless the facts have been relied upon in a judgment or reported in a RS. DGG (talk) 00:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Or, they may be notable if they are regarded as an important figure or are widely cited by their peers or successors. Vicki Aznaran was President of RTC and Inspector General, the same post held by David Miscavige, immediately before DM's rise. She left the CoS and sued the church for 70 mill. She was considered an expert witness by church critics involved in litigation against the church, and was used as such by them for several years. Did she suddenly become 'not notable' when she recanted, despite having been very notable and worthy of credence before? Or is the real problem that she's an unperson who must never be mentioned because of the recant? S. M. Sullivan 04:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Consensus seems to be that this list is too trivial. Proponents for keeping this information do argue that this information can be found in reliable sources and may be useful for comparison purposes; however, the counterargument of mentioning any germane changes in the season article(s) seems to be more appropriate in light of avoiding indiscriminate information, since there will be more context in those articles, and, as was pointed out, not all roster changes are noteworthy. — TKD::Talk 18:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of Los Angeles Dodgers Opening Day Starting Lineups[edit]

List of Los Angeles Dodgers Opening Day Starting Lineups (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

The previous AfD for this list was closed as "no consensus"; DRV overturned this closure, but the consensus was too narrow to delete the article outright from DRV. The article is thus relisted. Delete, as an unencyclopedic list. Xoloz 14:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources is the same from every line-up of every team especially if there is a key injury, etc. Jaranda wat's sup 17:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above could be an argument to have a separate article on just about every roster move for every team for every season. And a few articles on roster moves that don't get made.--Fabrictramp 18:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Opening day lineups are definitely more significant than any other game's lineups. As has been stated earlier, there is a significance to being a team's starting pitcher on opening day and the lineups are introduced much like they are at the All-Star game and the first game of League Division Series, League Championship Series and World Series serieses. I think it's fascinating to see the progression of a team's opening day lineup through the years. I'd also like to see information added to the article answering questions such as "Why did Mariano Duncan start in place of Steve Sax at 2B in 1985?". I believe that info would improve the article."
X96lee15 21:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. PeaceNT 11:54, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Escape: Human Cargo[edit]

Escape: Human Cargo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Contested Prod. Non-notable made for TV movie with little to mark it out for inclusion in an encyclopaedia. Does not appear to meet the criteria for Wikipedia:Notability (films) WebHamster 14:08, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Singularity 08:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Christopher Duddy[edit]

Christopher Duddy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Contested prod. I fail to see how this special effects technician meets WP:BIO. Pascal.Tesson 14:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Speedy delete a7, webcontent with no assertion of notability and no sources. NawlinWiki 16:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Warbears[edit]

Warbears (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Not notable, written like advertisment. Oysterguitarist 13:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Singularity 08:23, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Daniel Estulin[edit]

Daniel Estulin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

non-notable conspiracy theorist; lack of independent reliable sources Tom Harrison Talk 13:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Concur with Ravenswing. He's well known in conspiracy theory circles. That doesn't excuse the terrible sourcework, of course... Bullzeye (Complaint Dept./Brilliant Acts) 16:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus, defaulting to keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 20:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Columbia: the tragic loss[edit]

Columbia: the tragic loss (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Contested prod. This small documentary film is not in wide release and fails WP:MOVIE. It has one review that mentions a premiere in March, but the other cited source claims it will review the film once it has been screened at 'the American premiere' it will host at some unspecified time. Finally, the article is more about the loss of Columbia and criticism of NASA, for which we already have articles. KrakatoaKatie 13:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Singularity 08:21, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

COPS SAMP[edit]

COPS SAMP (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Contested PROD. This series (primarily, but apparently not exclusively, YouTube videos) is unsourced. Its only assertions of any significance are YouTube/website views, which aren't an indicator that it passes WP:WEB or WP:N. The only reasons that this wasn't, in my opinion, speedily deletable by criterion A7 are that it seems not to be entirely web-based (the lead claims DVD distribution) and that the YouTube popularity could be construed as an assertion of significance. Still, with only 34 Google hits, none of which seem to be reliable third-party sources, I don't think that there's enough reliable, independent content out there currently for an article. — TKD::Talk 13:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SPA rather than WP:SPAM? Deiz talk 15:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No; the reason being is that a SPA created to push a Youtube "series" by a "production company" likely has a corporate goal attached to it.  Ravenswing  20:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus. CitiCat 01:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Chronological List of Playboy Playmates[edit]

Chronological List of Playboy Playmates (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This is just a rehash of a larger and more thorough listing that are in the pages entitled: List of people in Playboy 1953-1959, 60-69, and so on. There's no point to having this page in addition to those others. Dismas|(talk) 12:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify, I'm not proposing that this data doesn't belong here at all. I'm just saying it's duplicative when we have the other articles. Dismas|(talk) 00:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I feel it's a great reason to keep an article of this type. The value of data is shaped by how accessible it is, and in this case, I think it's quite a bit higher in this format than the other. The fact is, sometimes redundancy is a part of presentation, and given that there's no real cost to having another page, but a real advantage, I find the argument of duplication warranting deletion lacking. FrozenPurpleCube 17:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that issue would be addressed with regards to the other pages as well, not simply this one. However, I think you're perhaps ignoring the notability of being a Playboy playmate, which is actually a fairly notable bit of status. At least as much as being a pro sports player. FrozenPurpleCube 17:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Being a playmate is notable, but I dont think the same is true for a list of them. This would be like documenting the Big XII offensive player of the week since they started handing out the award. Corpx 18:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, being a Playboy Playmate is clearly far more notable than the Big 12 player of the week. It's closer to the Heismans or Superbowl MVPs. Plenty of women are identified as a Playboy Playmate in news articles, there's enough books and videos on them to show that there is an economic impact to the designation as well. FrozenPurpleCube 19:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would compare Playmate of the Year to the Heisman (we already have a list of playmate of the year) Corpx 00:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
People get identified for *years* afterwards as a Playmate, I'd even say it's a reasonable criteria for notability in a person, much like playing in a pro-sport. I don't know that the same is true for Big XII offensive player of the week. But to be honest, I don't even know who gives out that award, and I really don't care. If you, or somebody else wants to develop a page about that, feel free, I've got no objection. I'd still say that it's more accurate to compare being a Playboy Playmate to something like winning the Heisman or a Superbowl MVP. Of course, if you win one of those you're likely notable for other things, but that's often true of being a Playmate. Doesn't mean this isn't a useful table. FrozenPurpleCube 02:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Being a Playboy playmate is no different than being featured on the cover or SI or TSN or ESPN the mag, or PEOPLE or any other magazine. While being a playmate is indeed notable recgonition, I do not think its any more notable than the other magazines Corpx 02:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, it is quite different. Being on the cover of those magazines isn't used to identify the person (though it *could* be used to demonstrate notability since it is recognition by a third-party and usually includes in-depth coverage within the magazine), while being a Playboy Playmate, well...it is an identifier that can be considered as defining enough to merit an article on the person. Much like say, being on the Yankees baseball team. This is an article which takes existing data about a given recognition and collates it. And as far as it goes, the articles on Sports Illustrated and The Swimsuit issue do go into some depth as regarding the covers. Whether or not they should go into further detail, I don't know, but I wouldn't object to it out of hand. I don't know about the other magazines to even guess whether or not there's anything to their covers, but their articles aren't exactly that good. Could use some improvement in a lot of ways. OTOH, there is List of athletes on Wheaties boxes which is somewhat similar in nature. I wouldn't mind a Chronological version of it. FrozenPurpleCube 03:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, I think that should be deleted too. I think the frequency of crowning the title is my problem. Somebody who is crowned every month is not worth documenting here. The same to the Wheaties box where it the frequency is also pretty high. Corpx 04:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's a personal objection, and one where I disagree. Every month being too often but once a year not being too often is quite arbitrary. It's the notability of the title/award/whatever you call it that matters. Not the frequency. I sense that at least part of your objection is to the number of awards, but let's consider pro sports. Being a member of the Yankees, or the Titans, or whoever is sufficient grounds for an article. Do any of those teams add more than 12 players a year? I don't know, but I think it's quite possible. But hey, you want to nominate the Wheaties page for deletion, go right ahead. I suspect there won't be a consensus for its deletion. [45]. But hey, maybe I'm wrong and the plethora of third-party sources noting the various teams and individuals being on the box won't matter. FrozenPurpleCube 04:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I dont think we have a list of Players signed by Yankees or Player transactions by the Titans. The frequency is what is making it pointless to maintain this list. Corpx 07:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Once a month is hardly so frequent an updating as to make it pointless as it's hardly difficult. And I don't know how often the Template:New York Yankees roster is updated, it looks like there's a regular pattern of edits, but some may just be housekeeping. (And not to mention, but there's more than one MLB team to update) However 2007 New York Yankees season and the thousands of other sports with listing by seasons are clearly more frequent. I see a game every day this week. And there are lots of others. Portal:Current events requires frequent updates to stay current, don't you think? Sorry, but your argument is unconvincing, even if timeliness were a real concern in this case. FrozenPurpleCube 16:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at the Yankees article and it does not look like it lists (or mentions) every time somebody is sent down or called up, or the "transaction log" as they call it. Something similar would be the NFL Rookie of the Week or any other award that's crowed with such frequency. Corpx 16:29, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Then perhaps you need to look more closely at the template itself. Seems to me that it's meant to be kept up to date. Just like the season article is meant to be kept up to date. Thus your argument doesn't seem to be based on sound objections where there are clearly examples of frequent updating in existence.. I don't know that there's any particular notice given to being an NFL Rookie of the Week that compares to being a Playboy Playmate. Especially since any NFL player has an article by default simply by playing in the NFL. FrozenPurpleCube 17:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The schedule in the season article is kept because the season as a whole is worthy of coverage. If New York Yankees 2006-07 Schedule existed, I would also want it deleted. Corpx 18:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So would I, because there's no overlap that way in Baseball seasons. It starts in the spring and ends in the fall, unlike other sports which start in the fall and end in the winter of the next year or even the spring. But you *really* need to look at 2007 New York Yankees season. You are clearly missing something. Did you not read down the page? FrozenPurpleCube 18:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Really, I think this is a helpful concentration of the information found in other articles. I have yet to see any other articles with which this is an exact duplicate. FrozenPurpleCube 03:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Context is easily addable and a lack of said context is not a reason for deletion. And I see nothing in WP:NOT#DIR that explicitly prohibits pages of tabular data, in fact, WP:NOT#DIR (1) says "Wikipedia also includes reference tables and tabular information for quick reference.". This page is exactly that. And I continue to point out, that this list collects information in a more useful form than found elsewhere. Sorry, but I'm just not seeing the argument for duplication being valid. If I'm looking for who was a Playmate for a given month in 10 separate years, I can look at this page, or I can what, look at a 3-4 others? Which is more effective? FrozenPurpleCube 14:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's an WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument of sorts. Yes, I'm sure that there might be someone out there with a burning desire to see a table where one can easily see every November Playmate in history. There could also be someone out there with a burning desire to pick out every Asian playmate from a one-stop chart, but that bit of trivia isn't reflected either.  Ravenswing  18:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I really do find it less than helpful when people just throw out Wikilinks without substantiating the connection to the situation. What exactly are you claiming is OCE about my statement? Are you arguing that there is no notability to being a Playboy Playmate? Is there some reason you're not seeing what's helpful about a month-by-month listing? And as far as mentioning ethnicity goes, that may or may not merit coverage in some form, however, that's a different discussion than this one, which is about representing in tabular form the existing information as to Playboy Playmates. FrozenPurpleCube 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What I'm saying is what others have said: this list is duplicated in its every detail in other articles. Those other articles even have the exact same tabular style as this one. It just is arranged in a grid rather than in columns. I have argued nothing else, nor has anyone else, and your suggestions (now several times repeated) that the popularity of Playmates are at issue or that people don't see what is helpful about a month-by-month listing (which already exists) are at best straw-man arguments.  Ravenswing  19:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I disagree that the duplication is a problem. They don't provide the same factoring that this page does by condensing the information on one page. This is a more convenient way to do it. Redundancy is not a bad thing. And in any case, I did see that Corpx did express some concerns about notability, as well as a concern about updating it. Pardon me for discussing those concerns. And your remark wasn't clear as to what you meant, thus I asked for clarification. If all you're concerned about is the duplication concern, then see my existing reply. Redundancy is not a problem here. FrozenPurpleCube 20:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's not a valid deletion reason, since this isn't a developmental article. FrozenPurpleCube 00:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Singularity 08:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Garden of Earthly Delights in popular culture[edit]

The Garden of Earthly Delights in popular culture (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)– (View AfD)

Delete as per WP:Trivia. Apparently I have to do this myself since the nominator of the article has got himself banned for vandalism. If I can make one caveat it is that there is a public hygine issue here, it seems this kind of cruft has to go somewhere or it'll leak back out onto the main article. It might be better if there was a harmless refuse pit it could be buried in. Twospoonfuls 12:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Just because something is interesting doesn't mean it should have its own page. Dannycali 18:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Singularity 08:16, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bob Style[edit]

Bob Style (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

I found only one substantiable claim towards WP:MUSIC for this artist, namely on his homepage: He claims that he made it to the "Billboard country top 40" (sic). I actually can't figure out what chart he is precisely referring to; Billboard has many, and certainly not all of them imply notability. Also, the Billboard web site lists his discography, but does not show any charted hits for him [46]. Maybe I am misunderstanding something here, since I am not familiar with the US music charts, but to me he seems non-notable. -- Sent here as part of the Notability wikiproject. --B. Wolterding 12:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Singularity 08:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Amber Peach[edit]

Amber Peach (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Doesn't pass WP:PORNBIO Epbr123 12:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. If individual albums are demonstrably notable, then pages can be created on them. However, a discography as suggested by WP:MUSTARD may consist of album names only, as are already listed at Harvest (band), and the general consensus seems to be against a standalone detailed track listing etc. MastCell Talk 20:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Harvest discography[edit]

Harvest discography (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This is a discography for a Christian band. The band article has essentially one editor, User:Jamielang77. This discography has one editor, User:Jamielang77. There are very few inbound links for Harvest (band), all added by User:Jamielang77. User:Jamielang77 has some tens of edits, all to Harvest (band), adding links to that band from other articles, and adding this discography. In short, then, this is creeping fandom. This article is entirely unnecessary, adding a level of detail well beyond what might reasonably be justified. Cruftbane 11:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For reference: I am the creator of the article.
User:Cruftbane failed to note that this is a notable Christian band, as established in the Harvest article's recent AFD discussion.
WP:MUSTARD states that "Pages on performers should have discography sections."
A comment that was made before in the Harvest article's peer review is that the article reads like a discography, instead of like an encyclopedia article, if the full discography section is included. I feel that the creation of this discography page helps to reduce the size of the main article, while still providing valuable information.
As shown by WP:MUSTARD alone, the discography article is not "entirely unnecessary" and does not add "a level of detail well beyond what might reasonably be justified."
Jamie L.talk 14:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment re: the statement "I see nowhere where discography articles are mandated," there is the statement in WP:MUSTARD's discography section that "If a simple system cannot accommodate an artist's entire discography, a subpage (preferably titled "<Bandname> discography") should be created using summary style."
Jamie L.talk 16:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply: True enough. What do you fancy there is about this band's discography that can't be accommodated by a simple system ... for instance, the one that comprises the article under AfD discussion?  RGTraynor  20:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply What constitutes a complex discography? Is it one with more information re: the label, producer, band members, album histories, etc.? I can provide some of this information for most of the albums and would like to for the remainder. In other words, can I be given the chance to expand this article? I only created it last week. As it stands now, though, I don't think it would be too hard to simplify it. Jamie L.talk 21:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply: My take on that is that it would place undue weight on the importance on the individual albums; these aren't precisely the White album or The Wall. According to Amazon, the sales rank of Harvest's most popular album is #141,824. [48].  RGTraynor  14:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment re: the band not being notable enough for every track on every album to be listed. I've been comparing the discography to the discography of the featured article Slayer. I notice that Slayer's discography does include track listings. Obviously they are a more popular band; but it brings me to my question: at what point is a band "notable enough" to include the track listings with their albums? I would think this track information to be useful, especially on harder to find albums. Jamie L.talk 21:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response. I think, as a rule of thumb, if an album merits a page of its own, the track listing is justified in a discography. There's a big grey area, but none of the albums we're discussing are notable enough for a track listing. Also, being useful to fans of the band does not justify inclusion, per WP:NOT. Seth Bresnett • (talk) 09:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply. Please see the album criteria at Wikipedia:Notability (music). It states that "If the musician or ensemble that recorded an album is considered notable, then albums may have sufficient notability to have individual articles on Wikipedia." I think it's safe to conclude that if information re: the album's history, label, producer, units sold, etc. could be provided, and if the band was notable, then it would be alright for the album to have its own page, as well as having a separate discography for the albums. Additionally, I wasn't saying that the track information would only be useful to fans; but also to those researching the band (e.g., those individuals researching charted Christian music of Harvest's era). Jamie L.talk 14:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply. According to WP:N's "General notability guideline", "a topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." So far, I know that Harvest's albums "It's Alright Now" and "Only the Overcomers" have received such coverage. I'm sure that more of their albums have as well; but I have yet to do the research. Jamie L.talk 14:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. — TKD::Talk 18:02, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

POLI-SCI.187[edit]

POLI-SCI.187 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

please evaluate against WP:MUSIC, I believe that is does not pass this test --Xorkl000 11:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to article about series. Jaranda wat's sup 23:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An Instinct for Murder[edit]

An Instinct for Murder (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This is an article on one of the nine episodes made of the TV series Star Cops. This is a minor topic that does not require a separate article for each episode made. The article itself consists of little more than a plot summary and there is not much scope for expansion due to the limited number of potential sources related to this subject. I see no reason why any significant points pertaining to this episode cannot be incorporated into the main Star Cops article where better context can be given to them. On the grounds that it contravenes WP:FICTION and WP:NOTABILITY, I propose it should be deleted. Joe King 10:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • There is no longstanding tradition that individual episodes are notable. I could pull up lots of examples AFDs of this Corpx 16:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's no problem with articles for individual episodes of series when there are a large number of significant books, articles, websites etc. written for them that can be used as sources such as with, say, Doctor Who or Star Trek or The Simpsons or even short-lived series like The Prisoner or Firefly but having articles for every episode of every TV show is plainly ridiculous; you wouldn't, for instance, allow articles for each of the 6,000+ episodes of Coronation Street even though it must be one of the most important television articles on Wikipedia. As I've said, there are precious few sources available relating to Star Cops, maybe two websites worth a damn and about half a dozen magazine articles. So, where is the material to give the real world context for this article to come from? - Joe King 18:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Singularity 08:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

JuaNaxxxo[edit]

JuaNaxxxo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Musician autobiography. Is he notable? -- RHaworth 10:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - His only singles have been out in places like the Virgin Islands. He's not remotely notable. Plus, the only sources are LastFM and Myspace. Waste of time article. Porterjoh 11:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Possibly meets - Has had a charted hit on any national music chart. - of WP:Music. However no sources are cited. Additionaly I doubt it meets WP:N - An artist without a real website and only MySpace to show these days? 1redrun 11:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Singularity 08:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Horton's law[edit]

Horton's law (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Cannot find anything to suggest such a term exists, no sources, when do a google search [49] only reference is to a Horton's law of stream lengths not this article's topic Davewild 10:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Speedy delete a7, website with no assertion of notability. NawlinWiki 16:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Leedsmeup[edit]

Leedsmeup (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable and defunct website. (Disputed speedy.) -- RHaworth 09:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Singularity 08:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Luchesi authorship controversy[edit]

Luchesi authorship controversy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete. Contested ((prod)). This is a non-notable fringe theory. No case is made in the article about why readers should think the theory is notable. Just listening to the works will convince anyone who knows a bit about music that this theory's claim that Luchesi wrote Mozart's Symphonies nos. 39, 40, 41 and Haydn's London Symphonies is unlikely. RobertGtalk 09:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Speedy keep, WP:SNOW. NawlinWiki 16:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indiana Jones 4[edit]

Indiana Jones 4 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

WP:CRYSTAL Iks33 09:08, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Singularity 08:06, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bede RFC[edit]

Bede RFC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete. Unreferenced, and not notable. RobertGtalk 08:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Singularity 08:04, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comparison of Windows and Ubuntu Linux[edit]

Comparison of Windows and Ubuntu Linux (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

According to the deletion policy page:Content not suitable for an encyclopedia. The article has been almost duplicated from Comparison of Windows and Linux with very little topic specific info. These thoughts can even be found on the page's discussion page. Acetylcholine 06:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete. @pple 17:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Political change[edit]

Political change (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Page earlier deleted. Recreated with near-empty content. Concept per se does not exist as a subfield of political science; all political science is the study of political change. Please note that a google test obviously will not work for something which is a common phrase but a non-notable subject for an article. In the absence of a common definition or field of study that this article would encompass, any contributions would obviously be OR, like it is now. Has been a stub since creation 10 months ago. Prod removed by creator. Hornplease 06:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Err, I did mention that Google is not a reliable indicator for a common phrase, right? Hornplease 07:50, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Err, I did mention its use in Google Scholar which is a good indicator of scholarly usage rather than overall Ghits. Dbromage [Talk] 08:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Naturally, I include Google scholar in my concerns that "hits" are an inappropriate indicator. Using a phrase is not an indication that that phrase deserves an article. For example, "full strength" gets a similar number of google scholar hits. But naturally, it would not be a reasonable article title, as there is no coherent article that can be formed around all the uses of this phrase. "Political change" is a similar problem. Article titles in the social sciences are completely devoid of information in some sense; a doctoral thesis I just read was titled "three articles on structural change", but of course that was a catch-all phrase and one of the articles was about decolonisation in Algeria, one on postcolonial theory, and one on linguistic modification. Hornplease 08:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And every single book you cite will have a definition of political change for the purposes of the book. It is the sort of phrase that is a free-floating signifier which people use to clarify their arguments. For example "a conception of political change" should be read as "a useful concept, which I shall henceforth refer to as 'political change'". The author would be surprised to learn that we think it has external validity. Hornplease 08:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That still doesn't support your assertion that some hypothetical future contribution to the article would "obviously be OR" when it hasn't happened yet. Any OR can be dealt with editorially. Putting it another way "If the article contains OR, trim it."[60]. You also haven't explained why the subject is not notable (see WP:JNN) or which (if any) Wikipedia policies the current article violates. The nomination seems rather flawed. Dbromage [Talk] 08:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No evidence has been provided that there is a coherent article that can be formed under this heading. The first line of WP:N is that "..no original research is needed to extract the content." This is a poster case of where the only way that content could be 'extracted' is to write OR. Political change is too amorphous a phrase to be a reasonable article title. Any content - like the current stub - would be OR.Hornplease 08:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No evidence has been provided that there isn't a coherent article that can be formed under this heading since it hasn't been written yet. As I said above, any OR can be dealt with editorially. We still only have your assertion that "any content" would be OR. "If the article contains OR, trim it"[61] seems reasonable. Dbromage [Talk] 08:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No evidence has been provided that this subject is notable. You've provided google hits. I have explained at length why, for a common phrase, that is an unreliable indicator. You have to make the case that an article can be created here; you have not demonstrated notability for the concept, or even demonstrated that a concept exists. "Definition of politcal change", as you linked, has less than ten results in Books; and those, as I specify, can each be seen to have no external validity. Consider one of the results, which says "...it need not be assumed that Easton wished to come to such conclusions but these examples do reveal a lack of care in his definition of political change..." What this means is (a)the author of the review recognises that a definition of political change is mutable (b) the definition of political change can be chosen to aid the formation of an argument,in this case Easton's. Further, there are no definitions of political change that have been studied as definitions in themselves; there are no secondary sources for it. Implication: we will choose definitions that are in themselves primary sources; we will be creating original research. That is not our purpose here.
Sheesh. Occasionally I worry about Wikipedia. Hornplease 09:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Pwned. :) Thin Arthur 08:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever that means. Hornplease 09:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's been a stub for a year. And the point I am trying to make is that any content would be OR, given the nature of the title. Hornplease 09:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Singularity 08:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jonathan Pink[edit]

Jonathan Pink (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Article apparently created by the subject himself raising WP:COI issues. Reads like an advertisement, with a little POV language, and absolutely no publicly verifiable, third-party reliable sources. A Lexis-Nexis news search produces no hits for the name “Jonathan Pink,” “lawyer,” “attorney,” “Los Angeles,” etc. also calling into question the notability of the subject per WP:N. A google search yields similar results with hits registering only for self-published articles on blogs and the corporate website. J Readings 05:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete and redirect. Those was no support for this to continue as a standalone article. All the material in this article is already in the Pepsodent page with the exception of the image that I will move across (and add a fair-use rationale). TerriersFan 20:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Irium[edit]

All of the information in this aticle is covered in the article for Pepsodent, and there is virtually no additional information that could be added, making this article hopelessly redundant. Calgary 05:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Response I'm pretty sure that the mention of irium being a radioactive compound is meant to refer to iridium, not irium. I'm not certain, but it's my best guess. Calgary 06:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Irium is not an element. Feel free to consult any current periodic table of elements to confirm that. Irium seems to be a trade name/identifier for "Sulfuric acid, monododecyl ester, sodium salt" [62].1redrun 09:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was redirect. Singularity 07:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hygena[edit]

Hygena (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-Notable contestant on reality show. See Crystal Clark deletion discussion. Tinkleheimer 09:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Against It's too early right now to make a delete call on Hygena. She may turn out to be the season two winner, and an article would be required. Take note that Feedback has his own page. Another good note here is that Hygena was a guest at Comic Con this year and on the panel for the show. --GrashDaStampede 22:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - In that case then articles could be used for all contestants, and then when each one is sent home, that article could be deleted. But that makes no sense to me. None of the other contestants (besides Mr. Mitzvah) has an article, so why should she? Tinkleheimer 02:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect. Singularity 07:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Amanda Babin[edit]

Amanda Babin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-Notable Model who appeared on America's Next Top Model. Did not win the competition and article states nothing else notable about her. Tinkleheimer 00:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • You have to have a major role to be considered a notable actor/actress Corpx 03:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was redirect to Gordon B. Hinckley. Singularity 07:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Standing for Something[edit]

Standing for Something (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

WP:BK notability concerns. A mention in Gordon B. Hinckley article should suffice. Article has been tagged with notability tag since May 2007 with little to no progress having been made in establishing notability. SESmith 04:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment -- Note, I just checked Hinkley's article, it already mentions the book. Useight 05:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was redirect to Gordon B. Hinckley. Singularity 07:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Stand a Little Taller[edit]

Stand a Little Taller (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

WP:BK notability concerns. It appears to be a book made up of collected quotations by Gordon B. Hinckley. A mention on his page should more than suffice. Has been tagged with notability tag since June 2007 with no progress having been made at establishing notability. SESmith 04:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Gordon B. Hinckley is the only article that links to right now. –SESmith 05:36, 21 August 2007 (UTC) (nominator)[reply]
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The result was delete. Singularity 07:38, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bro (subculture)[edit]

Bro (subculture) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Strikes me as entirely made up. Pascal.Tesson 03:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Response What the article really needs is citations. Even if the article does exist, without any relieble sources to support the information, the entire article is original research. Calgary 04:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Note that I have speedy deleted (CSD#G1) the article Bro Hoe which was also started by Ryannelson714. That being said, Urban dictionary is indeed not what we're looking for as a reliable source. In any event, while the subculture itself may be legit (and this has yet to be established), the article itself is clearly junk. Excerpts include fantastic BJAODN such as "Bros can be seen chilling with their female counter-part of the Bro, the Bro Hoe." Pascal.Tesson 04:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response How is the article junk, this sub-culture is purely regional. I can find one website http://www.flatbiller.com/ that shows some examples. Also, search people from the 909 American area code on Myspace to look at further proof that this sub-culture exists. Ryannelson714 04:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response Then what would be a reliable source? Ryannelson714 04:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response Again, proving it exists isn't the only issue. Even if we could prove that the subculture exists, we need to prove that all of the information in the article is factual, which can only be done by citing independent sources. If said sources do not exist, even if it is because the subculture is regional, then I would suggest that the lack of third-party coverage means the subculture is not notable. If said sources do exist, consisting of more than just proof that the subculture exists in some way shape or form, please add them.
As far as reliable sources go, WP:RS says it all, including "In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers." Websites may be acceptable, but more so if they are reputable, and involve editorial review. Self-published sources generally aren't reliable because anyone can publish them (hence the name). Calgary 04:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=groups.groupProfile&groupID=101088837&MyToken=4fff113f-dbc8-4b89-b0f7-402582361347 http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=groups.groupProfile&groupID=100451790&MyToken=51b57c42-8977-4991-9385-d1dc6d1434f1

Those Myspace groups are peer-edited, can those serve as proof? Ryannelson714 04:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Response As I understand it, a MySpace group is not an actual publication, just a sort of community setting. And again, there's the problem of self-publication. Calgary 05:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. How 'bout finding some reliable sources, such as "peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers". Dbromage [Talk] 06:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response This is a subculture, just like skaters, surfers, emos, punk, goth, computer nerd, gangster/chavs, and others. nobody dictates how these genres of youth cultures are, they just become, evolve. just like hippies, it started somewhere, now its probably the most recongized subculture in the world, it didnt take scientific papers or political documents to tell the hippies what they are. Ryannelson714 20:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • If this is the "most recognized subculture in the world" (something I would find hard to believe, but hey ...), then surely you will have no problem coming up with the reliable sources which prove your contention? Corvus cornix 20:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • In his defense, I think he means that hippies are the most recognized subculture in the world.  Ravenswing  14:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I can't see why this hasn't been closed per WP:SNOW, the consensus can't be clearer. - Caribbean~H.Q. 20:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: You'll get your wish, about three days from now.  Ravenswing  19:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep, no consensus. Tbo 157talk 16:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pitfight Team[edit]

Pitfight Team (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

No sources and no information; practically a blank page with little notability short of a trainer and former champion fighter Thesaddestday 03:54, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep - After the changes made to the article it now has content. The numerous third-party sources help with notability, though it needs more help. Thesaddestday 00:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here are some links from reputable sports and news souces to show that this one of several broad-based and professional Mixed Martial Arts associations linked with organizations like the UFC, Pride FC, or WEC
  • Iceman.com, One of the articles on Chuck Liddell's website
  • Sherdog.comLiddells fight finder profile on Sherdog.com which lists him as a Pit fighter under Association.
  • ESPN's MMA page ESPN's affiliation with Sherdog.com Unak78 16:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete helpful and useful isn't a reason for keeping. Jaranda wat's sup 23:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Star Trek versus Star Wars[edit]

Star Trek versus Star Wars (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
  • Question: Can you think of any published comparisons that could be cited in such a rewrite? Jakew 12:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Exactally, Strong Delete fancruft DBZROCKSIts over 9000!!! 12:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response. I accept the point that a sourced rewrite isn't really possible. Since I don't think the article in the present form is tenable as an encyclopedia article, I've changed my vote. Seth Bresnett • (talk) 14:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: It seems like the links that Hornplease provides would blow up the SYNTH argument against, as well as address your comment to my vote. Is your position that those links could not be successfully incorporated into this article? Akerkhof 16:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exactly three unique third-party independent articles? For possibly the two largest sci-fi franchises in history? Methinks this demonstrates a lack of real-world notability. These articles make the comparison, they don't discuss the comparison as a phenomenon i.e. their use in any Wikipedia article would be as primary sources, not secondary. Compare: "A few Reliable Sources have drawn a comparison between...", which still requires the synthesis of the Reliable Source material into Wikipedia, whereas "The Reliable Guide to Star Wars and Star Trek documents the comparisons made by various other sources and poses the question: why does noone seem to care?" Primary sources do not establish notability, and to my mind do not adequately address SYNTH issues either. Zunaid©® 14:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

-PeterVerkhovensky —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.189.221.45 (talk) 01:54, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

For the same reason we dont delete articles about napoleon's war campaigns or even stuff about myspace is because the information exists and wikipedia is supposed to act as an encyclopedic entry which at least attempts to document as much as possible. To delete the SWvsST article would be like saying "its ok to destoy some history based on what i feel like now", its simply a biased judgement based on ignorance of the fact.TTMSHU 03:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect all to their respective albums. Singularity 07:06, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Take a Bow (song)[edit]

Take a Bow (song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Nothing notable about this song. Not released as a single, nothing special happened because of it. Article is empty but for infobox (I would go with ((db-empty)), but I'm giving the article creator a chance to add content). Image used is actually the album cover (since there is no "song cover"). Giggy Talk 03:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Giggy, your opinion on the music is utterly of no use here. Please stop providing it.)

I am also nominating the following related pages, which are in the same situation, created by the same person:

Overdue (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Fillip (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Exo Politics (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Assassin (Muse song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Soldier's Poem (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Fury (Muse song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Ruled by Secrecy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Dark Shines (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Futurism (song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Screenager (song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
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The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 20:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

State Line, Pennsylvania[edit]

State Line, Pennsylvania (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

None of these places seem to be notable, much of the detail in the article is unsourced, and the few sources / external links that are provided do not seem to be reliable sources. Most of the wikilinks to this article are from its inclusion in three Pennsylvania county nav box templates (so every place in those counties now links here). Once those are eliminated, it is linked to from very few articles. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Normally, I'd suggest a merge/redirect to the incorporated political entity, but since this is a link to three different (and ambiguous) place names, I'll vote to keep this article for the sake of disambiguation. --Elkman (Elkspeak) 19:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bedford County doesn't have a State Line community.
  • How do you figure? It's listed as a "populated place" at the GNIS. Zagalejo 01:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Speedy Delete, no assertion of notability. Tango 15:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Stuanton Mall[edit]

Stuanton Mall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Very difficult to red page on the Staunton Mall, a non-notable dying mall in Virginia. Mall fails WP:RS and WP:V. Ten Pound Hammer(Broken clamshellsOtter chirpsReview?) 03:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. — TKD::Talk 10:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of rappers who reached number one on the Hot 100 (U.S.)[edit]

List of rappers who reached number one on the Hot 100 (U.S.) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Is this necessary when we already have List of artists who reached number one on the Hot 100 (U.S.)? This would be better served as a category. For example, we have Category:Billboard Hot 100 number-one singles and Category:Billboard Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs number-one singles. If this is kept, it should probably go under Category:Billboard Hot Rap Tracks number-one singles. Spellcast 03:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Singularity 06:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mike Belfort[edit]

Mike Belfort (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

non-notable fighter (no fights), limited google hits; prod declined NeilN 03:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, two different roads to the same outcome. Spellcast 03:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Few sources available to verify claims of 'holiness', and one of those sources is a near-verbatim copy of this article. Given its hibernation period of more than a year (except for vandalism), it seems unlikely more sources can be found and the article won't improve. - KrakatoaKatie 08:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Baba Virsa Singh Ji[edit]

Baba Virsa Singh Ji (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Nomination for PROD-deletion in August 2007 of an article discussed at AFD in December 2005 with an outcome of keep ... procedural nomination. The original AFD was brought with the reasoning "Vanity article on obscure person", obscurity based on a low number of Google hits. The re-nomination for deletion is accompanied with the rationale "This article has been tagged as lacking souces for over a year. Articles require independent, reliable sources verifying their content and are presumptively original research in their absence." The if it lacks sources it must be OR reasoning appears to be on the rise lately, something which I do not at all agree with. Nonetheless, the article has sat essentially unchanged - and unreferenced - since it's 12/2005 previous trip here. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Consensus is that this topic is inherently a novel synthesis. — TKD::Talk 17:54, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ohio presidents[edit]

Ohio presidents (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Maybe this article can be saved. There are versions in the history that are better than the current one (if anyone reverts to a different one, please make sure to add the AfD notice). The problem is that, though this is a good topic for a history essay, it's not an encyclopedia topic unless what the various people discussed here have in common is clear and incontrovertible. I think it can't be; I've looked for sources (perhaps not as hard as you will, so feel free to prove me wrong on this), and all I can find are Ohio pride-type websites and opinionated pieces about corruption in the Ohio Republican party. This could be a subsection in Ohio, since no one would deny that the sheer fact of Ohio's 8 presidents is of interest, and if the corruption charges could be sourced one could imagine an article History of the Ohio Republican party in the nineteenth century, or some such, that would detail them, but as it is, this is original research and either not NPOV or, essentially, trivia. I'm interested to hear other opinions. Chick Bowen 02:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tell that to the New York Times [71] or the Washington Post[72]. There is probably more, given that there is a ton of study of state influence on national elections, which well, leads to things like candidates being selected because they were from Ohio. [73] is one example, though more are about Virginia than Ohio, Ohio does crop up there. Whether or not the current contents of this article reflect any of that, I'm not sure. FrozenPurpleCube 05:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
After reading the free preview given by the NYT and Washington Post articles, I see no synthesis in there and nor do I see any reason to suspect much synthesis in the articles themselves Corpx 06:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Guess I'm reading it a bit differently than you. However, I think the adoption of the slogan "Mother of Presidents" (split with Virginia), is enough to show some potential there. May not be best in this article though. FrozenPurpleCube 14:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You can look at the index here, and all it does is talk about each of the presidents separately, and not synthesize a relationship. Corpx 05:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed, it's not just the content that's OR, it's the topic. Of course there are any number of sources about those guys, but we need sources that point to a relationship. Chick Bowen 22:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Singularity 06:26, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Up the river, down the river[edit]

Up the river, down the river (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This underwent AFD consideration in May 2006 with an outcome of keep; in August 2007 it was nominated for deletion via the WP:PROD path ... therefore, this is a procedural nomination. The May 2006 AFD was brought on the reasoning "One of the unsourced, and at this time externally unverifiable drinking game articles listed in a mass deletion" relisted on AFD individually. The Aug 2007 PROD reasoning consisted of "Article does not establish notability, violates WP:NOT." User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Singularity 06:17, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Susumu Kuno[edit]

Susumu Kuno (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
  • If he really is that notable, would you mind expanding on the article and adding more sources? The article has been an orphaned stub for over a year and has little notable content. Djma12 (talk) 22:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
it has the content it needs. His academic work. That they have been published by the places that did is what shows them notable and well-recognized by his peers. DGG (talk) 23:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • My issue is not with this individual's credentials, they seem impeccable. I'm merely pointing out that the article as it stands is far below standard. Normally, I would just say that it requires improvement, but it has been tagged as orphaned for over a year now. If you would like to improve the article so that it meets WP:BIO standards, by all means. Djma12 (talk) 23:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's why it's marked as a stub. That's the whole point of the stub markers: to indicate an article is lacking in information and needs to be expanded. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further, one probable reason why it's (near-) orphaned is that linguistics -- real linguistics, not droll lexicographic oddities and moral panics about the alleged decay of the language etc etc -- is poorly represented in en:WP. This is because, despite the best efforts of such people as Steven Pinker, real linguistics is of interest to a smallish percentage of people, and a smallish percentage of these are ready to write up substantive matters at short notice. (Those few who are ready tend to be hard at work on their PhD theses, their own papers, helping others with their PhD theses, etc.) Thus such an everyday linguistics notion as scrambling is nowhere explained and hardly mentioned in en:WP, and thus there can be no link to Kuno from Scrambling (linguistics) or whatever. -- Hoary 10:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. Majorly (talk) 14:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Explanation here, please ask me if you need any more details (or correct me if I'm wrong ^_^) Thanks, Majorly (talk) 16:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Spells in Harry Potter (3rd Nomination)[edit]

Spells in Harry Potter (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This is an AfD relist as directed at this DRV. There is not enough reliable source material that is independent of Harry Potter for this article to meet Wikipedia's verifiability policy. Without such source material, the topic fails Wikipedia:Notability. The article also fails as a list, such as not including unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources per Criteria for inclusion in lists and not adhering to that criteria with reliable source material. With AfD #1 closed after ten hours and AfD #2 closed because AfD #1 was not taken to DRV, please keep this Afd #3 open for at least five days. -- Jreferee (Talk) 02:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But is there any evidence Spells in Harry Potter are a global phenomenon? The notability of the work does not extend to every facet of a fictional world described in that work. David Fuchs (talk) 18:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here is some evidence, but I admit to having not yet found any secondary sources discussing "Spells in Harry Potter" as a general topic: Avada Kedavra in Google News, accio and "harry potter" in Google News, Alohomora in Google News, Expelliarmus in Google News, Expecto patronum in Google News, Wingardium Leviosa in Google News. Ichormosquito 18:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ichormosquito's keep reasoning is based on sources that have yet to be found (through 3 AFDs) and is contrary to what WP:FICT is saying. My reason to delete this article is the lacking of real world notability (among others), not WP:IDONTLIKEIT Corpx 06:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that more secondary sources would be great, but if I'm reading WP:PSTS correctly, they're not strictly necessary in this case. But since I'm lacking a New York Times article devoted to spells in Harry Potter, I suppose I'd have to argue that the survival of this article through 2 AfD's suggests a consensus on notability. (A weak argument, I confess). --Bfigura (talk) 06:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Primary sources can be used to cite information, even though that practice is looked down upon by some editors. However, primary sources cannot establish notability. As for the first two AFDs, they look to me like a barrage of WP:ILIKEITs and WP:ITSUSEFULs and both were speedy closed (inappropriately too, in my opinion) Corpx 06:36, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Just to clarify: WP:FICT was substantially changed between the first and second AfD. My argument is based on the assumption that editors haven't had time to adjust. Ichormosquito 06:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where are these fabled multiply third party, independent sources I keep on hearing about? David Fuchs (talk) 16:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many of these "fabled" sources have been listed here for you. You could also do something crazy like an Amazon search and find them yourself. But the proper thing to do here is give time for improvement of the sources. Nominating it every week and decrying the lack of sources is not helpful, and points to an underlying reason of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. nut-meg 01:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Sorcerer's Companion and The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter have been mentioned once or twice. The Beacham's Sourcebook, Exploring Harry Potter, seems like a worthwhile read as well. As for the etymologies, I maintain that the bulk is in intelligible Latin and that giving editors' translations of foreign words together with the original forms is acceptable from for references, let alone these, but it helps that a moment's incompetent journaling found Verbatim, a language quarterly, and Harry Potter Through the Looking-Glass, a scholarly essay. These feature loads and add some background information and context, to boot. An user has already noted that he has one of the first two books and that it works for this purpose, and sworn to get on that. Give it a while, AfDs very seldom fix articles. Often they keep that from happening. (Just an essay, but chances are you've seen that.) --Kizor 18:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Read WP:USEFUL. David Fuchs (talk) 18:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and especially the part: In spite of this, there are some times when "usefulness" can be at the base of a valid argument for inclusion, especially when referring to information that is not only of localized interest (as in the New York phone listing example) or a matter of opinion as in the restaurant guide example. An encyclopedia should, by definition, be informative and useful to its readers. Try to exercise common sense, and consider how broad a segment of the population will consider a piece of information "useful." Melsaran (talk) 21:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WP:WAF and WP:NOR should be read here. The etymology is the only non-fan reference in the article, and is entirely original research. David Fuchs (talk) 18:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is not. PeaceNT 14:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I don't really contribute much to them, I just keep an eye on them as they tend to attract more than their fair share of crufty additions which, as I'm sure you can tell from these AfDs, is something I don't at all like. But you cannot compare the two, as Sonic the Hedgehog is a notable video game, one of the most important ever, in fact, whereas Spells in Harry Potter are not notable at all outside of the novels in which they appear. Believe me, if someone were to create an article such as Items in Sonic the Hedgehog I would be just as eager to see it removed as I am with this Spells article, as it would fall foul of everything that Spells in Harry Potter does. I really don't have any anti-Harry Potter agenda here, just an anti unencyclopedic non-notable indescriminate list agenda - the subject is completely irrelevant. Miremare 02:00, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Several people have pledged to do so, beyond just voting like it. It was awfully nice of them. --Kizor 18:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - saying an article, any article is only of interest or of use to only certain section of population is not an arguement. One can say, given any page that it is only of interest to those interested enough to visit it, by definition. The point is the same as WP:IDONTLIKEIT. KTC 18:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I think it's an argument; it's clearly an article created by Harry Potter fans for other Harry Potter fans. There's no one who isn't already a fan who is going to be interested in it, because it covers details of fiction. I'm not a fan of astronomy, but the information in the article could still prove useful to me. Miremare 19:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, David Fuchs (talk) 19:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's just an essay. The Pokemon lists have survived repeated deletion debates, so I'm invoking precedent. It's easy to imagine this being cleaned up to the level of Characters in the Halo series.--Nydas(Talk) 20:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This precedent means nothing as far as policy or guidelines are concerned. You may as well use that as an excuse to keep any article. Pokemon has many fans editing its articles, and therefore many keep votes to count on, just the same as here. The Pokemon-cruft articles stay regardless of whether they've got any business being in an encyclopedia, because there is "consensus" for them to do so, despite the fact that some of them clearly violate Wikipedia policies. This may sound cynical, but it's difficult, from the perspective of a non-fan, to see the repeated "keep"ing of such indiscriminate unsourced lists of minor fictional characters or items in any other way. Miremare 21:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument sounds like 'if it has fans , then it must be fancruft'. There are plenty of third party sources for the spells in Harry Potter, see the books mentioned and the links provided above.--Nydas(Talk) 15:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the link to the Characters page, but they are two different types of articles- Characters in the Halo series makes no OR claims, and was spun off because such details cannot go in the video game articles because it would be too large- an exception provided by List of characters... in WP:WAF, I believe (maybe not, I cannot remember). At the same time, it also features plenty of out of universe info- (the entire first section, and more soon, once I get around to it)- the Harry Potter article has only stuff about the spells itself, and the possible meanings in Latin. If all those spells were noted in some big way, not just a fan site, then I could see it having outside relevance from the work and thus notable. In its current way, don't see it happening. David Fuchs (talk) 21:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is currently no special dispensation for lists of characters in the fiction guidelines, they're both lists of fictional things. As for out-of universe stuff, why is The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter or Reading Harry Potter: Critical Essays not the equal of The Art of Halo?--Nydas(Talk) 15:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, David Fuchs (talk) 19:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Additional Comment: The essays are useful because commonly consensus doesn't treat them as good reasons for either deleting or keeping and article. It's somewhat a waste of the closer's time and energy to read them. David Fuchs (talk) 22:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Funny, it seems that you have just made the point without meaning to. Clearly your issue is WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Arguing that you find Tolkien more interesting than Harry Potter only proves that point. I might find an article about the magic in Tolkein to be interesting. But if I personally didn't it wouldn't mean it wasn't notable. Arguments about whether or not you personally find it interesting go directly to WP:IDONTLIKEIT. nut-meg 01:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Response Where did I say I find Tolkien more interesting than Harry Potter? Secondly you may very well find an article about magic in Lord of the Rings interesting, and the Harry Potter equivalent of that is Magic (Harry Potter), not Spells in Harry Potter which is an indiscriminate list of individual spells, of interest only to existing fans (which is not what an encyclopedia is for), rather than an overview of the magic itself. Miremare 16:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This AfD, as with all fiction debates I've yet come across, seems to boil down to two deletion arguments: WP:OR and WP:FICT. Can I first challenge someone to read WP:DEL#REASON and point out which of those points covers original research?? Articles qualify for deletion under WP:OR if and only if they contain pure original research with no possibility of the research ever being removed. Leaving aside the question of whether a knowledge of elementary Latin qualifies as Original Research, even if anything which even looked like OR was removed, all that would go is the etymologies. Everything else can be saved by the application of ludicrous numbers of OOTP Ch.(({ch))}, [PS Ch.(({ch))}], etc tags, or a reference section six feet long. This article does not qualify for deletion under WP:OR.
Now for WP:FICT. Quite aside from the explicit statement "The article can be deleted only if the above options are either redundant or unavailable"['above options' refering to, among other things, transwiki; my emphasis] which quite precludes anyone arguing for "delete" without prepending "transwiki or..."; let us take a quick count of the sources and references present on this page and the article in question. We have three references to direct comments from JK Rowling. We have a reference from the BBC (and, incidentally, there's another one that I'm going to add as soon as I've finished typing this). We have thirteen references to a hardcopy published work. Then we have, above, another published work that could be used for the same purpose, with an assurance that it soon will be. A quick search of Amazon.com reveals numerous other non-fiction works about Harry Potter which may be of varying degrees of utility. We have six Google News references that a helpful user found in two minutes searching - has anyone considered actually looking for some more?? We have, therefore, at my best guess, 11 separate secondary sources and at least three tertiary sources. Let's try and make this article better rather than just trying to make the problem go away. (Derogatory comment removed - please stay civil. --B. Wolterding 16:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)) Rebuke accepted, phrase reworded. Happy-melon 19:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and incidentally, please let's not close this early! The last thing this article needs is ANOTHER DRV/AfD. Let's have a full five-day debate and lay this matter to rest. Happy-melon 15:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply I agree that original research is not generally a reason for deleting an article - merely for improving it to meet WP:OR- however that can only be done when the topic of the article meets other important guidelines WP:NN, WP:RS, etc. In this case I would say that the article fails WP:NN and even if it did pass based on the sources found so far, the information the article would have to be cut down to such an extent that it would not necesitate an individual article and could be merged into the Harry Potter Magic article. however I would say the following points in WP:DEL#REASON could be seen to cover original research when regarded in a certain way: 1) "Content not suitable for an encyclopedia" - very general but per WP:OR original research is not considered suitable for an encylopaedia. 2) "Subject fails to meet the relevant notability guideline (WP:BIO, WP:MUSIC, WP:CORP and so forth)" - if something does not meet WP:NN then secondary sources cannot be found, if sources other than the editor cannot be found then the article could be assumed to be original research by default. 3) "Article information that cannot possibly be attributed to reliable sources" AND "All attempts to find reliable sources in which article information can be verified have failed" - pretty much the same as above, without relaible soures an article is likely to be largely original research.

I'm not saying that these apply here but in my opinion, that's how the deletion guidelines consider original research. [[Guest9999 21:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)]][reply]

Response - I don't disagree - an article without any reliable sources must be OR. However, the biggest single problem I have with WP:FICT is that it completely and utterly discounts the canon itself as a reliable source (or at least it's interpreted that way). Surely it is incontravertable that the best source of evidence for what, say, the Expelliarmus charm does has got to be the text itself!?! That is Rowling's definitive treastise on the subject! As WP:FICT stands, what I assume it is trying to say (there are BIG problems if it isn't!) is that secondary sources are required for evidence of notability, while primary sources (the books) are satisfactory sources for actual details. If this is not what it's saying, and it's trying to say that all articles about Harry Potter must reference without using the books at all for any reason, then the problems with WP:FICT are even greater than I believe! This is what I believe a lot of people are misinterpreting WP:FICT as. Almost everything in this article can be referenced to the books, and (if necessary) will be, although it will involve the addition of a ludicrous number of [PS Ch.(({ch))}] and OOTP Ch.(({ch))} tags. That can be done, and proves that there is little true OR in this article (I have found some, but not much, and as soon as this debate is over it will die a painful death). The only way it can be argued that the whole article is OR is if the books are completely discounted as sources, which is ridiculous. Happy-melon 21:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply WP:FICT only restates WP:NN as it applies to fiction, remember these things do not actually exist - the book is a primary source. My main issue here is that I just do not think that these articles simply do not belong in Wikipedia (per the guidelines). They may well be interesting, useful and fun but that does not mean they belong in an enclopaedia (which wikipedia is WP:5P). They would be very useful and informative as part of a Harry Potter Wiki or fansite - the information on such a fansite would probably be more complete and informative specificly because it did not have to conform to the Wikipedia rules. Wikipedia is not an universal depository of all information WP:NOT#INFO and trying to shoehorn in information that does not meet the guidelines in the end helps no one - least of all those who would hope to gain from that information. [[Guest9999 21:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)]][reply]
Please note that as of now, there are now fifteen completely reliable, news-based sources referenced in this article, plus a number of other references of questionable, but arguable reliability. Let's everyone please resist the temptation to assume that a fictional article cannot possibly have comprehensive secondary source coverage, and actually look at the facts. Happy-melon 21:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Those "sources" were added before I made my assessment. Jay32183 22:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And so you choose to ignore them completely? Or did you mean to say "after I made my assessment"?? Happy-melon 08:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I did not ignore them. I include them when I say there is no significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources independent of the topic. After adding those fifteen, there are still zero that allow this article to stand on its own. Jay32183 18:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on the sources added to the article so far I think that a lot of the don't actually meet WP:RS a lot of them are things like the Harry Potter Lexicon - a fan site which doesn't meet WP:RS, [74], [75], [76]; Mugglenet - another fansite [77], an Emma Watson fansite, [78] as well as one which is just a dictionary definition,a site where anyone can post content - [79], self described blogcritics [80], a blogger for a minor newspaper [81], things from the authors and continuity editors of the books (if everything an author described warranted and article... etc.) [82], [83], there are also several sources which take the form of a quiz on sopell names which don't actually give any information except for what the spell names supposedly mean they are on the BBC but I'm not sure if this kind of childrens quiz qualifies as an article endorsing source [84], [85], [86], then there is what I think is another fansite [87] - but it's a 'chat' with the author anyway. I think that just leaves the book "Wizard Words: The Literary, Latin, and Lexical Origins of Harry Potter’s Vocabulary" which does not make for multiple secondary sources as layed out in WP:NN. [[Guest9999 21:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)]][reply]

OK, I'll go through the list again and try and balance that argument (which you can't deny is a little NPOV). [88] HP lexicon - no one is claiming this is a reliable source - it's an extra left over from before. It is, however, possibly the best-referenced and most reliable HP reference site there is. However, to give you every advantage, let's ignore hp-lexicon.com. You'll note that those references weren't even included on my list of 15 reliable sources. [89], please note the comment. This is not a work published by mugglenet, it is in fact a transcript of a BBC television program. Given that other copies of the transcript are doubtless available, the real provenance of this source is not mugglenet but the BBC. That makes it rather harder for you to dismiss. [90], I'm sorry but what gives you the right to dismiss entirely a widely published interview with the Japanese media purely because it's reprinted on a fansite?? I have, incidentally, the same interview repeated word-for-word on Radcliffe's official site ([91]), Grint's official site ([92]), and what I think is an article about the interview in Japanese from the actual news company ([93]) although of course I can't read it so I can't be sure. Then I don't care how minor it is, your "blogger for a minor newspaper" ([94]) is still writing for a published, referenced and accountable journal, and hence qualifies as a reliable source. Vide Rowling's direct quotes ([95] and [96]), I would argue that the latter is a useful source because it describes the sheer scale of the fan following for Harry Potter. However, again to give you every advantage possible, note that these two sources are used only for factual verification of the descriptions of some spells, not for notability purposes. Finally, the BBC articles. How you can throw these out is quite beyond me. The BBC thinks that Spells in Harry Potter are sufficiently notable to devote three pages to them, one way or another. That should be all the justification required. However, think about the true implications of a quiz format. Not only does the BBC think that HP spells are notable, they think that these spells are so notable that the majority of visitors to that page will have enough knowledge to be able to take a quiz on them. Let me finally quote something from WP:RS that supports my argument:

As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.

. That is the criterion for assessing reliability. The target audience has nothing to do with it. Are you claiming that the BBC did not check these pages for factual errors and legal issues as thoroughly as any of their other pages? Are you claiming that the Huffington Post does not check for factual errors? The Japanese press? Rowling herself? Then finally, we have the published book, which you quite rightly didn't even try to attack (as you would have failed miserably). So after all that, and after giving you every possible advantage and swinging every debatable point your way, you've managed to write off TWO sources. So we have 13 left. Your serve. Happy-melon 08:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What about The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter? The index (viewable on Amazon) mentions Arithmancy, Animagus (4 times), Aveda Kedevra (twice), Charms (4 times), Dark Arts (twice), Divination (5 times), Fidelius Charm, Latin (16 times), Patronus (3 times) and Unforgivable Curses (twice).--Nydas(Talk) 22:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. Can someone please get it so we can add another incontavertable reference to this article? Guest9999 above didn't even feel able to take a crack at the other hardcopy source we've got. Happy-melon 08:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply I do think it's possible that the Huffington Press didn't check for factual errors in a personal blog. The BBC quiz claims to give definitions of spell names - too be honest this just seems odd considering the answers - if they had asked what the spells did the answers would have made more sense. I also would say that the mugglenet source shouldn't be used to establish notability - it is still a fansite and I don't think it can be verified. Even considering the current sources that have been established I still do not see that this topic warrents an individual article. Also a lot of publications which can be considered "accountable journal[s]" by your definition do not count as reliable sources - school newspapers are bound by laws of libel and copyright - but everything written about in a school newspaper isn't then considered notable.[[Guest9999 17:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)]][reply]
Oh don't worry. If it ends with no consensus, someone will nominae it again next week and you can try again.nut-meg 04:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • A small subset? Harry Potter pages are some of the most heavily edited and heavily seen pages. Therequiembellishere 01:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you actually read WP:CRUFT (which, incidentally, is an essay with no binding authority) you'll notice it has a whole section on how Cruft status does not qualify as grounds for deletion, and another on what to do with crufty articles (get to work on them!). Having read that properly your argument, Agamemnon, becomes WP:IDONTLIKEITHappy-melon 08:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can't be merged or the magic article is too longnut-meg 04:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Merging does not mean tacking one article onto another, it means selecting the important parts from the first and including them in the second. Once the single-mention spells and other trivial entries are pruned, there are no space problems. Miremare 23:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thoroughly well argued, Itub - your analogies are much better than any I have been able to assemble. I took the liberty of linking some of your points to relevant policy - I hope you don't mind. It presents a forceful and cohesive argument. Thankyou!! Happy-melon 14:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  1. 1- all the latin descriptions are WP:OR and not verifiable, unless Rowling states so or whatnot. The primary sources are not a problem; the lack of out of universe info and secondary sources (see WP:RS) are. David Fuchs (talk) 15:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter devotes a few pages to the Latin translations (I flipped through an old copy today).--Nydas(Talk) 16:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Latin materials are NOT original research. Those translations can be found in any dictionaries, there is absolutely no need for Rowling to specify the meaning of each Latin word she uses. PeaceNT 04:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Response (edit conflict!) Verifiability isn't the problem. Notability is the problem, and the fact that this is an indiscriminate list, listing ALL spells regardless of how useful or notable they are. The "interest" argument, which seems to be being misinterpreted by some, is that these spells are of possible interest only to Harry Potter fans, whereas you don't have to be a "fan" of quantum physics to find that article useful and informative. Encyclopedia articles should be written for readers who have no knowledge of the subject concerned, as an introduction to the subject, not for fans of the subject. That's what the Harry Potter Wiki is for. The above argument seems to be based entirely on WP:NOTPAPER, which could be used as an argument for keeping anything. Miremare 15:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reply: That's an extremely turgid and speculative argument; a case could absolutely be made that there are those who aren't hardcore HP fans who might find a spell list interesting, while those not versed in mathematics or physics could readily find a quantum physics article dull or impenetrable ... and it is extremely unlikely that someone who lacked an interest in either case would find the article "useful." Frankly, the notability of the major background element in the highest selling fiction series of all time shouldn't be a "problem," it should be overwhelming.  RGTraynor  16:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment the notability of "the major background element in the highest selling fiction series of all time" isn't up for debate. What you are refering to is magic, and that is covered in Magic (Harry Potter). These individual spells are not notable of themselves. Those that are should be covered in Magic (Harry Potter). Miremare 17:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment (edit conflict, as well!) This argument is nonsensical to me -- how can you make this "interest" argument? People without an interest in quantum physics are no more or less likely to read an article on quantum physics than people without an interest in Harry Potter would a Harry Potter article, and the converse is true as well. For example, let's say I'm a linguist with an interest in how dead languages are being used in modern culture -- voila, this article is of interest to me, even though I may despise (or may have never heard of!) Harry Potter. That argument boils down to I don't want to read this, so nobody else would, which is not only no valid reason to delete an article, but is no more true for any one article than any other article anywhere on Wikipedia. Ashdog137 16:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reply (damn these edit conflicts!) So in other words, never delete anything because someone might want to read it? And let's not even get into the questionable "Latin" part of the article, presenting as fact extracts of an unofficial speculative book with no claim to speak for what J.K Rowling intended the spell names to mean. I'd be very interested to hear a convincing argument on how a non-Harry Potter fan can find this article useful in any way. As for "interest" please read again my comment about who an encyclopedia is written for. Miremare 17:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Response You misconstrue my challenge to your argument -- there are plenty of valid reasons to delete articles, but "I don't like it and don't see why anyone would want to read it" isn't one. As for a non-fan finding the entry useful, see the argument I just made above -- I'm not a Potter fan, and that's exactly why I came to visit this article, and I found it enlightening. But, since you want to discard all etymology, let's go with the easier, simpler argument -- as can be clearly told from the references in the article, Harry Potter spells are getting significant coverage in major news outlets (e.g. BBC), which reflects the fact that they're in open and frequent use in popular society. A non-fan may have encountered a reference to a spell in everyday interactions and desire to get some background on what that reference meant -- voila, another reason why a non-fan would want to read this article, and precisely what people turn to encyclopediae for. Ashdog137 17:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Response that's very possible, and exactly what the Magic (Harry Potter) article should be for. Very few of theses spells even approach notability in the real world (even given the argument that a mention in a BBC online kids' quiz can equal notability) and should be covered in the Magic (Harry Potter). Everything else is fancruft, of interest to fans only, pure and simple. Miremare 17:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reply I guess that's just where we'll have to agree to disagree -- as a non-fan, I found the content of interest, so I cannot concede that point to you, particularly not in such broad, sweeping, uncompromising terms. Ashdog137 17:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
...presenting as fact extracts of an unofficial speculative book with no claim to speak for what J.K Rowling intended the spell names to mean. Verifiability, not truth. If there are two or three sources reporting what a spell means, that's what we go for.--Nydas(Talk) 21:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Nydas, and, I might add, the article won't tell you what J.K Rowling intended the spell names to mean., it only provides relevant information on the background of the Latin words used in Harry Potter spells. This is the exact type of material suitable for an encyclopedia. PeaceNT 04:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Etymology" refers to the history and development of a word, therefore you do need to know what the author intended them to mean, otherwise you are misleading readers into taking speculation as fact, which is not suitable practise for an encyclopedia. Miremare 23:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Sorcerer's Companion: A Guide to the Magical World of Harry Potter
The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter
Beacham's Sourcebook For Teaching Young Adult Fiction: Exploring Harry Potter
Harry Potter Through the Looking Glass
Seriously, the Amazon links were first or second on every search. GlassCobra 01:00, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was really asking more for how they may be viewed in terms of WP:RS in order to establish notability - I thought the case for this could be made better by editors who have read the books and are familiar with Wikipedia policy than by Amazon. Incidentally none of those books seems to be about spells, the spells simply being mentioned an aspect of something larger such as magic in Harry Potter or Harry Potter in general, if at all.[[Guest9999 03:51, 26 August 2007 (UTC)]][reply]
That's not the point. A book about quantum mechanics in general, which mentions the Uncertainty Principle, is a perfectly reliable source on Uncertainty principle, assuming it's properly verified, fact-checked, etc. Not all reliable sources have to be peer-reviewed journals, Guest9999, much as you might like them to be. Happy-melon 10:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, it is the point. Notability is having significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources independent of the topic, WP:N. For a source to be reliable it must go through some editorial process. A self-published book by a non-expert is not considered reliable on Wikipedia. We need to know the publishers of the books, and the contents of the books. Jay32183 18:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on the article being nominated three times in a month. This is true however this is the only AfD where debate has been allowed to continue over the normal AfD time frame. [[Guest9999 02:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)]][reply]
  • Indeed. It's not that the article has been nominated in three separate situations, more like this is a single situation where three AfDs were formatted. It's really just a technical issue, and is different from a typical article that is repeatedly AfD'ed. -- Ned Scott 02:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - I am not convinced that sources have been found that show that the topic meets the primary notability criteria; there is also none of the real world content mentioned in the specific fiction criteria. Almost all of the more reputable sources mentioned seem to refer to spells as an aspect of something greater and notability is not inherited. The magic in Harry Potter covers spells and I think that is sufficient. As it is the current article is full of original research especially the etymology entries which seem to be new synthesis of published material by editors, if editors think that in the future more sources and information will become available then that might be a good reason to userfy the article but not to keep it as a part of Wikipedia. [[Guest9999 02:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)]][reply]

Comment I am not convinced that looking up a word in a dictionary or translating something is original research. We do it all the time for articles about foreign-language topics, and for good reason. --Itub 08:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Excellent positional play there, Guest9999, leaving your !vote until right at the end. However, whether or not you're convinced, a substantial part of the 90kB of this page (which incidentally will outsize the actual article if it goes on much longer) is devoted to showing quite clearly the wealth of reliable sources that exist for spells in Harry Potter. Of course most of these sources "refer to spells as an aspect of something else" - to use the quantum mechanics analogy that seems to be floating around in this AfD a lot, how many books do you think talk only about one obscure aspect of QM like Weyl quantization? None - instead all the references consider a broader aspect of QM in which parts are useful, reliable sources for each subarticle of quantum mechanics. However, unlike Weyl quantization, whatever the hell that is, this article also has hardcopy references which do specifically cover spells and spellcasting. Also unlike Weyl quantization, Spells in Harry Potter is 142nd on the list of most-visited pages on Wikipedia, wheras I suspect Weyl quantisation will be somewhere down the 1.5 million mark.
This will be the third time that I've pointed out that presence or even preponderance of Original Research is never a grounds for deletion. The addition of references to this text is progressing, hampered only by the sheer quantity of good material to reference. The argument about etymologies is sound, but even if it were determined that they represented pure original research, that would not be any grounds for deletion of the whole article.
All in all, then, Guest9999, although each of your points flags up a problem with the article, none of them indicates a legitimate ground for deletion. Rewrite, yes; prune, yes; reference, yes; delete, no. I'm afraid I can't get over the suspicion that you just DONTLIKEIT. Happy-melon 11:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Singularity 06:07, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of artists with Young[edit]

List of artists with Young (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This is a rather indiscriminate list of information. These artists are primarily notable for reasons other than their name starting with "Young" or "Yung". Spellcast 02:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete 5 deletes and 3 keeps. The keep rationales were not given as much weight because they were based on supporting the content of the article and not Wikipedia policy.--Jersey Devil 04:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Chapters in Watchmen[edit]

Chapters in Watchmen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete because, as the article itself states, it's nothing but a "detailed descriptions of chapters in the graphic novel Watchmen." That's it, just an abridgement of fiction. This violates WP:FICTION and WP:NOT, not to mention copyright law, as there is no fair use justification for copying story elements without a transformative, real-world informative context. Watchmen, a featured article, already contains a sufficiently descriptive summary of the graphic novel's story, so there is nothing that needs to be merged. Postdlf 02:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Speedy delete by author request.. Carlossuarez46 05:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of Quebec Hip Hop artists[edit]

List of Quebec Hip Hop artists (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Recommended deletion per WP:NOT#INFO. Nenyedi(DeedsTalk) 02:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Keep. @pple 17:17, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

TILE64[edit]

TILE64 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
Speedy keep, definitely notable. [101] [102] [103] [104]
Tilera creativity to do a 64 core processor while Intel and AMD only did 4 core until today, makes more than notable, but also part of computing history. Carlosguitar 12:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, as per other sources plus Technology Guardian's article on them, which actually goes out of its way to clarify that parallel processing has been around since the INMOS transputer, so what the company is doing is nothing new; that software for these processors will be ages away. If I am not mistaken, advertorials are designed to market a product positively and not suggest its developments are just improvements on achievements made in the 80s ("advertisers will not spend money to describe the flaws of their products"). Rubberkeith 16:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. KrakatoaKatie 07:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tilera[edit]

Tilera (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
  • Comment Well, this webpage has a third-party review of this company. The question now is whether the above mentioned webpage is a reliable source. Moreover, a quick google search shows up quite a number of hits for this company as well. --Siva1979Talk to me 02:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment - and merge in TILE64 into this article to keep as one article whilst little is known about the company and redirect tile64 to this article. Ttiotsw 07:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. — TKD::Talk 08:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dahlkemper's[edit]

AfDs for this article:
Dahlkemper's (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Seems to be a non-notable catalog showroom chain in Pennsylvania. Tagged for importance and orphan since April with no improvements. Ten Pound Hammer(Broken clamshellsOtter chirpsReview?) 01:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete not enough info --Caldorwards4 02:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Speedy delete g1 patent nonsense, g3 vandalism. Come on, "Claymore Research Association of Pennsylvania (CRAP)"? "Franz Beckenbauer Institute"? NawlinWiki 16:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vijay Ray-Chaudhuri[edit]

Vijay Ray-Chaudhuri (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete hoax article about a supposed Nobel Prize winner, was tagged speedy but despite much debate suspected or real hoaxes are not speedy candidates. Carlossuarez46 01:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete. — Scientizzle 18:52, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Seth Sieunarine[edit]

Seth Sieunarine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Minor TV actor, no starring roles anywhere. PROD tag added, undeleted by User:Lectonar after being contested. Should be a speedy, really. Calton | Talk 01:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We thank you for brining this to our attention, and we realize that Seth only appeared on television as a child, be he is also a prominent model in his home country of Trinidad and Tobago. We ask that you please not delete his page as he is still continuing with his modelling career. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.95.23.100 (talk) 12:49, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Singularity 05:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of sporting events[edit]

List of sporting events (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Indiscriminate collection of info, so violating WP:NOT#INFO - ALL events in ALL sports? There is already Category:Sports events or even Category:Current sports events available instead Paulbrock 01:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Consensus is that there is a lack of reliable sources to establish notability. — TKD::Talk 03:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nathan Tyree[edit]

Nathan Tyree (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Sourceless bio on non-notable vanity-press author. PROD tag added, but removed without comment by anon IP. Calton | Talk 01:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • He's a vanity-press author: how are you gonna fix THAT? Oh, and Geocities? Not a reliable source. --Calton | Talk 13:54, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, geocities can go. But 3:am, Bookmunch, time out new york (still compiling here) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.76.154.130 (talkcontribs) 14:16, August 21, 2007.
  • A short events listing -- of which the subject is only a participant, no less -- probably generated by a press release (Time Out) and an unsigned listing of some sort (3 A.M.)? These are your sources? You're truly scraping the bottom of the barrel here. --Calton | Talk 14:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

also at www.dogmatika.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.76.154.130 (talk) 14:52, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

  • "Editor of an e-zine that gives favourable reviews to himself". Where? Link please? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.76.154.130 (talkcontribs) 14:15, August 21, 2007.
  • Was that a question or a statement? --Calton | Talk 14:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was asking where these self reviews are. I can't find them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.76.154.130 (talk) 14:45, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
  • That's unfair for a few reasons. 1. that isn't a review, it's an interview. 2. although it quotes from some sources that said favorable things, it isn't in itself 'favorable'. It's an interview. 3. that interview has been there for years, but (per his blog) he only got the job at bookmunch a couple months ago (june 1). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.76.154.130 (talk) 20:44, August 21, 2007 (UTC)


"His debut novel, Mr. Overby is Falling (PublishAmerica), was favorably compared to Fight Club and American Psycho" this is my favourite line. I've been unfortunate enough to read that book and if some respected critic compares it favourably I'll eat my hand. Can anyone find a reference for such a claim? And if it is out there, have they researched who said it?


Don't think any of those are PRO reviewers (but I don't think that the article said that they were).


http://www.bookmunch.co.uk/view.php?id=1655 http://awriterscult.com/community/showthread.php?t=14772&page=4 http://www.weirdears.com/index.php?act=findpost&pid=42296 http://uk.geometry.net/search_ad.php?mode=books&searchtype=list&search=R399J77RLML7ES&productname=Best%20thrillers%20of%202006 www.librarything.com/work/7528 blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=82916927&blogID=142039761&Mytoken=A9

The big seems to be here: http://www.bookmunch.co.uk/view.php?id=1655

"Obviously Mr. Overby is a dark and at times unpleasant and horrific book. There are hints of Bret Easton Ellis (particularly American Psycho) but also Chuck Palahniuk (who is a big fan of yours) and Jean Paul-Sartre (particularly Nausea)." -Peter Wild


"A few of my friends first latched on to you as a result of spotting you mentioned on the Chuck Palahniuk website. How do you feel about all of the fans you've garnered as a result of the Chuckmeister's patronage? " - Peter Wild —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.76.154.130 (talk) 21:08, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

   * Neither of these sources give 'favourable' reviews in comparison. They say that there are elements of similarities, but these do not favour Tyree's writing over Fight Club or American Psycho.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.194.13.1 (talk) 10:38, August 22, 2007 (UTC) 

Don't get me wrong- I actually now lean toward deletion. He isn't that notable. But, there is a lack of civility here and despite the fellows lack of notoriety there is no need to to get snarky. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.76.154.130 (talk) 21:22, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's Tyree's own, as it were. That suggestion has been in the article since it's inception. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.76.154.130 (talk)

This 76.7.196.230 appears to be his ip 63.76.154.130 21:50, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're missing the point![edit]

All the above Delete comments use a reason such as "appears to be" or my favorite, "probably local fans or a fanclub." Unless those can be demonstrated, there is no defined reason to delete. Yes, the article is UGLY, but it has also been around for more than a year and a half. If it's so non-notable, why is it only now up for deletion? Vanity articles on Wikipedia tend to be deleted very fast!
I am not saying that I think this is particularly notable, but this entire longwinded argument is empty, baseless, and biased from a strong "I know better and my view is the only view" POV. All the "appears" and "probablys" in the world are worthless unless backed up. The above sounds like the article itself, unreferenced. Instead of whining about it, put the unreferenced tag on the article (note: Nobody had done that even... is that laziness or oversight?) and ee what happens.
My Keep is with the provision that the article needs to continue to be improved and it needs to become better referenced. I think Wikipolocy is perfectly sufficient for that. Perhaps in another month or so this issue can be revisited, but the time is not right now for the lynch mob to unilaterally delete an article with a no-substance (false) rationale.
VigilancePrime 06:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What part of "sourceless bio on non-notable vanity-press author" uses the phrase "appears to be"? Which part of that defined reason did you miss during your vigorous handwaving? And speaking of missing the point, regarding your faith-based rationale: nope, you've got it backwards: the onus is on the ones making the claims of notability to back them, not for detractors to disprove them. To recap:
  • Vanity-press (PublishAmerica) author.
  • No reliable sources (see above for the dissections)
  • No evidence of real-world impact or notice -- and it's the responsibility of anyone claiming otherwise to offer evidence to the contrary.


Okay. http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2007/04/26/260407_mif_perverted_feature.shtml


http://www.berlingske.dk/kultur/artikel:aid=900252


http://www.wordriot.org/template_2.php?ID=1177

http://www.serpentstail.com/content_item?id=136

63.76.154.130 19:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. — TKD::Talk 03:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rich Guardino[edit]

Rich Guardino (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

I am also nominating the following related pages because same person and content:

Rich Gaurdino (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Possible hoax or semi-subtle attack pages with same content and creator. I cannot find verifiable references, though conceivably that is due to the age and college/minor league nature. Parts seem dubious, but organizations mentioned do or did exist. There are archival references to San Jose baseball Rich Guardino playing 1974-1977 as Hall of Fame inductee in 1997, versus the article's claimed playspan of 1966-1968 and induction in 2004. One claim is clearly inaccurate: the Little Falls Mets existed from 1977-1988, so Guardino could not have spent 1969-1971 there. On the WP roundup, fails WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:BLP. Michael Devore 01:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. — TKD::Talk 03:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Philip Christopher[edit]

Philip Christopher (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Just another business executive, and also unreferenced. Note too the heavily self-promoting tone. Biruitorul 00:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete due to lack of reliable sources. If someone can find suitable sources, feel free to create a rewritten version, citing those sources. — TKD::Talk 01:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Os Cangaceiros[edit]

Os Cangaceiros (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Practically unreadable screed about some anarchists. The single "source" only has one Google hit that I can tell, which doesn't inspire much confidence. I see no real notability, and no hope of salvaging the article. Biruitorul 00:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

g-hits. -FlubecaTalk 01:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Er... There's 4 times that many. Try looking under "Les Fossoyeurs du vieux monde" Os Cangaceiros (Yippie!) 01:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Singularity 04:07, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Terry row[edit]

Terry row (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Author with one published book who fails to meet notability guidelines UnfriendlyFire 00:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment, maybe Summer Capricorn book is notable, but I still see difficult to establish notability for Terry Row. Carlosguitar 09:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, I tried [111], The author too looks ok to mention at wiki. Check [112], But again the author has not been in the news though. BalanceRestored 11:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was speedily deleted as G11 (spam), copyvio of forum post, and A7 non-notable web site.

GEwar Times[edit]

GEwar Times (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete it is not entirely clear what this article is about but whatever it is it's not notable and the spam links have been removed so that we're no longer invited to click them and "donate". It's been speedied under a few different names several times but keeps coming back so here it is for the community to decide. Carlossuarez46 00:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I'm confused; you were the one that deleted the first version of this page, citing CSD. Why does this second incarnation not get speedied as well? I had already tagged it as such, and you replaced it with this. GlassCobra 00:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Because G4 requires an afd to speedy delete the repost. This keeps coming back, however. Carlossuarez46 00:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. Adding references to the article, though, would be a good idea. — TKD::Talk 08:16, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Herbert "Bert" Weaver[edit]

Herbert "Bert" Weaver (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Even the tournament he won doesn't have an article. #311 in list of highest grossing golfers -- in a sport which tends to be dominated by a few people for decades. Scott.wheeler 00:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment You might want to take a look at the PGA Tour page. There are a number of reasons why a specific weekly tour event might not be particularly notable. (For instance if there was a more important event the same week.) I can't find any record of the event in 1965 (though, to be clear I actually don't doubt that it happened or that Weaver won it) and only a few statistics about Weaver from 1970 on. And apparently the 311 above was just for that tour. Overall he ranks #511. Even golf sites don't mention his wins and I can't find a single article about him. Scott.wheeler 09:50, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the record, I don't agree that everyone that has ever appeared in a top-level league belongs in WP as the majority to not meet more general notability requirements. There was a draft for new text there which seemed more sensible, but it's recently been blanked in preparation for a new draft. Scott.wheeler 15:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was redirect to Cephalic Carnage. Given the article's history, the redirect will be protected. — TKD::Talk 02:56, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lenzig Leal[edit]

Lenzig Leal (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Biographical stub for member of a barely-notable heavy metal band; no sources seem to exist which discuss him in particular; article is mostly unsourced personal opinion. Eleland 00:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect or Merge with the page for the band.nut-meg 00:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I already tried that and was reverted by band fans rapidly. Eleland 00:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect or Merge with main article. If they keep reverting, the page can be protected. --Hdt83 Chat 01:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and redirect per Hdt83. Dbromage [Talk] 04:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect. Unsourced POV, so not worth a merge. Seth Bresnett • (talk) 11:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to Cephalic Carnage. Given the article's history, the redirect will be protected. — TKD::Talk 02:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Steve Goldberg[edit]

Steve Goldberg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Biographical stub for member of a barely-notable heavy metal band; no sources seem to exist which discuss him in particular; article is mostly unsourced personal opinion. Eleland 00:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect or Merge with the page for the band.nut-meg 00:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I already tried that and was reverted by band fans rapidly. Eleland 00:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect or Merge If they revert it again, just give them a link to this AFD (If it passes) -FlubecaTalk 00:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and redirect per Flubeca. Dbromage [Talk] 04:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to Cephalic Carnage. Given the article's history, the redirect will be protected. — TKD::Talk 01:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

John Merryman (drummer)[edit]

John Merryman (drummer) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Biographical stub for member of a barely-notable heavy metal band; no sources seem to exist which discuss him in particular; article is mostly unsourced personal opinion. Eleland 00:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I already tried that and was reverted by band fans rapidly. Eleland 00:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. — TKD::Talk 01:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lynx Aviation (Pakistan)[edit]

Lynx Aviation (Pakistan) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete Pakistani charter airline fails WP:CORP Carlossuarez46 00:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was: Speedy delete under G11— Preceding unsigned comment added by Chairboy (talkcontribs)

Coast Run[edit]

Coast Run (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Advertising, not encyclopedic or notable Eran of Arcadia 00:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note - the entry was improperly listed on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2007 August 21. Some comments not added directly to the article's own AfD page were not recorded. Dbromage [Talk] 01:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge or delete remove ths soapbox advertising or delete it.Rlevse 01:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. — TKD::Talk 08:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lanny Barbie[edit]

Lanny Barbie (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Does not appear to meet WP:PORNBIO, unless having sex with your sister is a valid niche. Has only been in the industry for six years and doesn;t seem to have done anything notable. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 10:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's not an achievement. There's been one for every month since 1970. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not it's an achievement, it's still a valid criteria for WP:PORNBIO. Epbr123 22:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But it's not an award. It's a badge, basically. The Grabbies are awards. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 09:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It should possibly be made clearer but when PORNBIO mentions magazine awards, it does specifically mean being a centrefold of the month. If you disagree with this criteria, you'll have to debate this on the PORNBIO talk page. Epbr123 18:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 23:54, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. — TKD::Talk 02:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

KARA[edit]

KARA (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

non notable band Wtimc3 15:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete only one album, no indication that it had success there, no sources and I have also concerns that some parts have been cut and paste.--JForget 01:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Speedy Delete per CSD G4 by User:Oscarthecat This is the 3rd time that has been deleted per speedy nomination. Non-admin closure.--JForget 01:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kevin Ching Park[edit]

Kevin Ching Park (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable and defamatory Somebody Else's Problem(aka Alethiophile)Ask me why 19:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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