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I have copy-edited day 1-6 but it is still not good enough.
An example:" Khalid struck at the right flank of the Byzantines left half of the center, and the cavalry reserve of the Muslims right half of the center struck at the Byzantines left half of the center at its left flank."
This is simply not good enough. After viewing the picture, I can make sense of it but the text confuses the reader.
I need some braincells to rephrase this. I haven't found a way. Wereldburger758 (talk) 20:29, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Have a look in the sandbox of the text that I have written along with the picture. sandbox. Is this a useful addition in your opinion? Wereldburger758 (talk) 12:42, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
الله أكبرMohammad Adil 13:49, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Yes, the notes section is a good idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wereldburger758 (talk • contribs) 04:09, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Shock and awe is very modern military jargon and is anachronistic for an article concerning 7th century warfare. It also sounds misapplied for this strategic situation. Heraclius appears to be trying to use central position in an attempt to defeat the enemy in detail.Tttom1 (talk) 05:28, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Heraclius was a master strategist, no doubt, his persian campaigns stand testimony to tht. Byzantine usually avoided pitch battles and therefore according to my understanding of their military doctrine they intended a shock and awe and kept central position strategy as option B (i.e if conditions were favorable they would execute this as well ), if byzantines would have given choice, it is more likely that they would hv given preference to shock and awe to central position, as its less costly in terms of casualties.
Regards الله أكبرMohammad Adil 13:09, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Wandalstouring and Tttom1 not to use the concept "shock and awe" in this article. And I have never read anywhere of the concept "strategy of the central position" and I have read a lot of books about military strategy and military history. The Wikipedia article gives only one book as reference.Wereldburger758 (talk) 19:40, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
i've kept an eye on this article for about 3 years now, it tells the story of the imperialist battle for israel particularly well. the persian, byzantine, and islamic empires all have their place in jewish history, and the story of the muslim conquest of israel from the christians is well told. Trum5770 (talk) 00:21, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Reviewer: Trum5770 (talk) 00:21, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Hawkeye7 (talk) 05:20, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
الله أكبرMohammad Adil 16:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
As for Armenian and byzantine sources, if some have access to those virtually extinct sources, then i would appreciate if some one could help in adding them. The article is based mostly on the work of david nicolle, one of the best historian of military history. i wonder still people doubt the factual accuracy of the article, what else do you guys want then ? you want a book written by Khalid ibn walid himself ? @User:Riskbreaker2987, if you have any queries regarding the factual accuracy of the article then we can discuss it on my talk page.
Regards. الله أكبرMohammad Adil 16:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
الله أكبرMohammad Adil 15:53, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Can we please not continuously inflate and deflate one side or the other ?! The history of this article is riddled with attempts at changing the numbers from one POV to the other. Discuss this on the talk page BEFORE playing around with the numbers, and provide sources to support your numbers. Thank you. Unflavoured (talk) 08:20, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
I agree that Kaegi is probably the most respected authority on this subject and this period. His view should be taken into account.Giordaano (talk) 23:23, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
there is a mistake in the numbers of the roman army one estimation 100,000 to 400,000 and the other is 15,000 to 100,000 huge difference CAN NOT YOU SEE IT — Preceding unsigned comment added by HammamWiki (talk • contribs) 02:48, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
again, someone has been playing around with numbers. Please, leave the more detailed version. Even if you might not like it, it is better to have a more complete overview of the estimatesGiordaano (talk) 19:37, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
User Kool777456 is deleting the more detailed estimates about the combatant numbers contained in the info box. Please, stop this and discuss on the talk page, before making any changes. There should be a consensus on this issue, before changes are made. See previous postsGiordaano (talk) 14:30, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
And again. IP 41.97.127.145 changed the numbers. Changes to this sensitive point, which has been discussed over and over again, have to be discussed on the talk page. And, stop hiding behind an IP Giordaano (talk) 10:51, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
again, someone deleted the 15,000 estimate for the Byzantine army. This estimate is very well-sourced (Kaegi)
Numbers should not by modified except by consensus.Giordaano (talk) 00:58, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
And again, numbers were changed without any discussion. The consensus reached is that the estimate by Kaegi for the Byzantine army should be quoted. Stop the vandalism Giordaano (talk) 00:13, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
With the possible exception of Manzikert, the largest armies the Byzantines fielded were in the region of 20,000-25,000. Heraklius campaigned against the Persians with an army of that order, as did Manuel Comnenus at Sirmium. Alexius Comnenus struggled to muster such a large army against the Normans, even when bringing in everyone who could be spared from across the empire. It cannot be incidental that Byzantine army sizes across periods and authors seem to hit that limit. On the other hand, I was just reading a Georgian/Armenian chronicle claiming that the Byzantines lost 72,000 in a battle against the Georgians but 780,000 still remained (http://rbedrosian.com/gc5.htm). If one checks the battles in Wikipedia, one will rarely find a battle where the more numerous side won. That is because the prevailing accounts are those of the victors, and especially when it comes to contributing to articles on Wikipedia, simple as that. The estimate of 15,000 for the Byzantine side is realistic. Anything above 20,000 approaches fantasy. Another assessment by Haldon in The Byzantine Wars:
However, the article still reads: estimates for the Byzantine army are mostly between 80,000 and 150,000, with some estimates as low as 50,000 and 15,000–20,000. The only cited source for this is Kaegi, who says 15,000. Where do the other "modern estimates" come from? Skamnelis (talk) 11:19, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
From the discussion above as well as archive 2, I judged that the number 15,000-40,000 for the total Byzantine troops involved in the battle of Yarmuk to be the most plausible. Therefore, I agree with Wiki1609 (on archive 2) and partially with Skamnelis as well as Giordaano. It is argued by Mohammad Adil in archive 2 that the Arab force consists of an estimated 25,000 or at most 40,000 Arab troops, this is much too ridiculous if we consider the fact that he also claims that the Arab troops to be capable of defeating the Byzantine force consisting of an estimated 80,000-150,000 troops (unless it's 40,000 Arab troops v. 80.000-100,000 Byzantine troops, which is possible but I do not believe it is well cited). If this is a siege warfare or warfare utilizing guns and canons, then it is plausible, but with swords in the Jordan valley / Yarmuk plain? absolutely preposterous.
I also evaluated that Mohammad Adil's comprehension on the sources are lacking and I agree with the error in comprehension as pointed out by Wiki1609 on archive 2, for example: "I think you draw the wrong conclusion from your research. If the Byzantines had around 150,000 total troops throughout the entire empire, this does not mean they can deploy 100,000 men in the field".
Through perusal of the arguments presented above as well as archive 2, and research of relevant sources, my position is that sources such as Agha Ibrahim Akram and his ridiculous estimates needs to be removed from the wikipedia page immediately, or at least if this dubious sources were to be included, then it should only be included in passing such as: some historians estimated the number of Byzantine forces to be around 80,000-150,000, however further scrutiny of such sources shows that such claims are dubious and unreasonable considering the socio-historical context as well as the military structure and total strength of the Byzantine Empire during the battle of the Yarmuk.
If no one concurs or refute this within a period of 1 week, except Mohammed Andil, of which the arguments I have already seen, then I would proceed with making the changes, taking into account that everyone above agrees with Kaegi estimates of 15,000 (or more precisely 15,000-20,000) Byzantine Troops, but none agrees with Akram's ridiculous estimate of 150,000 Byzantine troops.
I would therefore, revise or allow the revision of this article into 15,000 - 40,000 Byzantine troops (40,000 Byzantine troops is based on Journal of Asian History, Vol.19, No.1 - The Battle of the Yarmuk - A Reconstruction (1985) by John W. Jandora p.14.
SaintsCross (talk) 21:59, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Really funny how Arab historians are always called "Outdated" and "Unreliable" while historians of the old like Herodotus who claim that the Persians sent an army of 2 million are honoured. Another thing which is annoying is how the Persians at Gaugamela are said to have mustered an army of 240000... Even after Granikos and some other battles they lost against Alexander. I see noone comlaining about that.
But when a Oriental army defeats a Western army and even the historians of that time estimate the numbers of Byzantines arround 80000-100000 its still not good enough...
--Arsaces (talk) 08:09, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Oh god, I'm sorry for what I wrote back then. I was a young, emotional nationalist.
Nationalism truly is a mental illness, and I apologize that I tainted this article with it.
--Arsaces (talk) 04:34, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
What happened to the mention from Byzantine reports that the Arabs bribed over 10,000 Ghassanid Arabs to switch sides? It used to be in the part about the tensions due to the different sects of Christianity practiced by those Arabs and the Byzantines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.178.83.197 (talk) 14:29, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't if know if any of you or even the moderator bothered to read any of Nicolle or Akram's books. If you did they both say that the Muslim army and the Roman Army were a 1:4 ratio, respectively. I edited the text because most modern historians put the Roman estimate at 100,000 and most put the Muslim army at 25,000 maximum. Akram tends to estimate both forces as higher so if you want to use the biggest estimate of each historian than the largest estimate of the Roman army has to be put in. Which is 150,000. It wasn't put in. You did however use Akram's high number for the Muslim army. You can't just neglect Akram's high number of the Roman army and use his high number for the Muslims. Kaegi's estimates should be ignored because his numbers aren't consistent with the data of the other 5 sources. The numbers I put in are consistent with the scholars' estimates a 1:4 ratio. If you want to include every modern estimate as probable than the Romans will be 15,000-150,000 this range is too big and you have to neglect the outliers, mainly Kaegi and Akram. You are left with 80,000-100,000. If you neglect the outliers for the Muslim army you get 25,000. However we should say 20,000 to 25,000 because the historians clearly state in their books it was a 1;4 ratio. The previous numbers really are despicable, borderline revisionist, really makes me question what I read on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.235.4 (talk) 06:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
I would say that Byzantine Army had around 150,000 maximum 200,000 at most buy it seems really unlikely While 40,000 to 50,000 troops for Caliphate at most Uzair Ansari333 (talk) 07:41, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
In the article it says Muslims estimated the Roman army to be 400,000. However, there is no Muslim source saying that the Roman army was 400,000. There are a couple that say 200,000. Nothing for 400,000. This is why I deleted it. Unless people can just put in stuff they like to believe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.235.4 (talk) 06:47, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
This is exactly what people are doing : putting in the numbers that they would like to believe.
We discussed this innumerable times in the past, and decided to keep a very wide range of estimates as to the respective numbers. This decision shouldn't be changed without a new discussion.Giordaano (talk) 22:39, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
it is should be noted that the de facto overall commander of this Rashidun troops was Abu Ubaydah bin Jarrah, who was been appointed by Caliph Umar, not Khalid as popular belief, althought on battle technically its Khalid who gave the effective order. this is trivial but can lead to misleading if the article did not include the note
The course of the Yarmouk River does lie on the borders of Syria-Palestine, nor yet on the borders of Syria and "The State of Palestine". It runs between the borders of Syria and Israel (as well as the borders of Israel and Jordan), east of the Sea of Galilee, in territory that has never been proposed as part of a Palestinian state. Joe in Australia (talk) 23:59, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
That should read "does NOT lie on the borders of Syria-Palestine [...]". Sigh. Joe in Australia (talk) 00:35, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
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Some time ago I added this picture:
to the article but it was removed. Is there any issue with it being used to illustrate the article?--178.169.198.103 (talk) 01:10, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
The coordinates indicated can't be right. The battle site now appears on Google Maps c. 10 km as the crow flies north of the Yarmuk - that's impossible, even for the most remote luggage camp. Possibly useful: "The Roman army was arranged with the Wadi Allan gorge to their right, the Wadi Ruqqad to their left." I have it from Dan Fratini, who posted on www.militaryhistoryonline.com in 2006; now it's gone from there, but it's parked behind a paywall at [2]; others copied it ([3]) or parts of it ([4]). Wadi ar-Raqqad (Ruqqad) is easy to find, but which wadi there is Wadi 'Allan? The one coming down in a N-S direction, passing next to (W of) Saham al-Jawlan? That would start explaining the current coordinates, but not fully. And is that indeed Wadi 'Allan? Arminden (talk) 18:09, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
Cewbot removed the following:
((Vital article|class=GA|level=5|link=Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/History|anchor=Western Asia (36 articles)))
I don't know a thing about this topic, but if it's about removing a kind of "high importance tag", it shouldn't. I undid it writing that this is a "TRULY history-changing battle. If it's not on some list: put it on the list!", but if it's just about the tag being the wrong one, then the bot was right. Anyway, who knows their way around this? High importance; history, military history, cultural history... Make your pick, they're all correct; Levant - Middle East - West Asia, whatever is available. Thank you. Arminden (talk) 12:05, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
If you want too see the list in question, see Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5. Dimadick (talk) 20:04, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
Amazing237 came to my talk page with a concern about the numbers being given for the Byzantine troops. I explained to them that we should follow the sources in this, but on a closer look it appears that this is quite impossible, since the article doesn't give full citations for most of the sources it cites on this topic.
Most of the modern sources, only cited in the notes section, do not give page numbers. The primary sources, on the other hand, are cited with page numbers, but without a full bibliographical reference: it's not clear what editions these pages numbers exactly refer to. I added the appropriate tags (((citation needed)), ((page needed)), ((specify))), but given the long history of edit warring over this topic and given the bad state of the referencing, I think that these sources should also be verified. I guess that in order to add the page numbers and proper editions, one would need to do that anyway, but I also added ((verification needed)) tags to stress that independent verification is really needed here.
On another note, I think it would be better to leave out the references to primary sources: there's a reason why we have experts to interpret and evaluate these numbers, and by citing the primary sources in the way we do we seem to be taking over that interpretative and evaluative role, which is not at all in line with WP:PRIMARY.
☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 23:09, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
the numerical strength of the units involved. It happens that sometimes the primary sources do not refer to the number of troops involved, but to those encamped at a distant location, which may also include non-troop populations (women, slaves, etc), as Marina Tolmacheva explains:
The pre-Islamic custom of women accompanying men to the battlefield continued for a while under Islam, and the first Muslim sailors were encouraged to bring their wives on board.[5]. I think the Battle of Mu'ta illustrates this, where currently the number of those encamped at Balqa' (citing Waqidi and Ibn Ishaq) is listed under "Strength" as if they were all involved at Mu'ta. Wiqi(55) 02:21, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
The sizes of the forces cited by the medieval traditions are disputed by modern historians; Donner holds the Byzantines outnumbered the Muslims four to one,[1] Walter E. Kaegi writes the Byzantines "probably enjoyed numerical superiority" with 15,000–20,000 or more troops,[2] and John Walter Jandora holds there was likely "near parity in numbers" between the two sides with the Muslims at 36,000 men (including 10,000 from Khalid's army) and the Byzantines at about 40,000.[3]
Is there a specific reason why this article needs 6 different maps for the battle location?
The map of Syria best covers the border region. The maps of Palestine, Israel and Jordan don't add much adtional info and Middle East and Levant are also overlapping. I think it's best to keep only Syria and the Levant map. 31.21.58.243 (talk) 14:54, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
I think any Anonymous user who edits this number without citing a source should have their Logs blocked. You have the same people with the most recent example being 84.80.96.143 editing the army size and putting fantasy numbers there instead every few days after the army size number is reverted back by one of us. I've had to revert the Byzantine army size like 20 times at this point lol.Byzantium is Rome (talk) 00:03, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
"5,00,000 Byzantines soldiers"
I can't tell if this number is supposed to be 5 million or 5 hundred thousand, it is written so poorly. When I go through the revision every single entry is complete nonsense. Can we please get this page protected? I came here to learn history, not some bs propaganda someone wants me to believe. 203.214.72.108 (talk) 20:30, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
I do believe that the Byzantium was unable to comprehend the terrain of Syria, the environment was probably hostile to heirs of Rome.
18:01, 26 February 2023 (UTC)18:01, 26 February 2023 (UTC)18:01, 26 February 2023 (UTC)18:01, 26 February 2023 (UTC)18:01, 26 February 2023 (UTC)~////////////////////////////////18:01, 26 February 2023 (UTC)18:01, 26 February 2023 (UTC)43.242.178.245 (talk) 43.242.178.245 (talk) 18:01, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
"Rashidun Caliphate" had units that knew the Levant, particularly merchant caravan and spies that spoke Arabic they used to trade in that region, and knew it very well.
These units were the cause of the Byzantine defeat at such a massive scale.
04:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)04:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)04:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)04:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)~////////////////////////////////////04:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)04:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)04:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)04:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC) 43.242.178.245 (talk) 04:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)