Buna

Why would a river that flows in albanian land then forms the border between Albania and Montenegro have the slavic name? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 13:56, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

An editor has repeatedly blanked out the name section and it might require some admin attention to stop it.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:55, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am wondering the same thing. The name should be Buna. Colonized even in our toponyms in wikipedia. 142.114.118.180 (talk) 03:23, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 23 February 2024

Bojana (river)Buna (river) – Buna/Bojana is a river which flows from northern Albania to the Adriatic Sea. Half of its course is entirely within Albania and in the next half, it forms the border between Albania and Montenegro. Arguments in favor of a move to Buna:

Granted, I kinda stumbled upon this article via a WP:Rabbit hole, and I honestly have no idea what the WP:COMMONNAME for this river actually is - but I can see that there is a valid argument for renaming this article from the name applicable to most of the length of the river to the name which is applicable for the entire length of the river - and I don't think that rationale violates WP:NPOV. 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talkedits) 18:37, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The river has two mouths connecting to the Adriatic Sea, one serving as the Montenegrin-Albanian border and the other entirely within Montenegro's landscape (approximately 5 km). The statement claiming that the river is 'entirely situated within Albania or along the Albanian border' is not accurate. --Azor (talk). 19:31, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then again, that could very easily be rephrased as 'the river delta contains the island of Ada Bojana, belonging to Montenegro'- and I doubt that islands count twice towards river length within a specified country. 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talkedits) 20:59, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The small river Buna is located in a different country and nowhere in bibliography or in any sources is there any confusion about its location. A distance of 250km between two different locations is not a source of confusion in itself. Such a distance is slightly smaller (~270km) than the distance between the capital of New York (Albany) and Massachusetts (Boston).--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The comparison includes the distance of two major U.S. cities with two comparatively lesser-known European rivers. The probability of confusion is simply greater when dealing with relatively smaller rivers that might share the same name. Searching for 'Buna River' already yields tourism websites for the Buna River in Bosnia. Overall, it seems impractical given the well-established recognition of the name 'Bojana River,' which has been in use for all many years. --Azor (talk). 07:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following rules are suggested for choosing a primary name for such a river:
If the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name.
If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name.

The rationale applied on Vjosa in late 2021 should apply here as well. There is no clear common name in English, as Buna and Bojana are more or less equal, i.e. there is not a clear case that one is considerably more used than the other. Hence the second condition applies. The section of the river that uses the Albanian name is roughly twice longer, because Albanian is official and a local language in all of the rivers' course. Montenegrin on the other hand is official and locally spoken only in the second half of the course - even there the vast majority of the population speaks Albanian as per the Ulcinj Municipality article, and only a minority speaks Montenegrin. WP:NCRIVER allows Buna (river) and precedents are mentioned there and by an editor above. However, per WP:NCRIVER Buna (Adratic Sea) is more suitable. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NCRIVERS: A river can be identified uniquely as a tributary of another river, e.g., Rio Puerco (Rio Grande tributary).
If a river with an ambiguous name empties directly into a lake or definable sea, then the name of that body of water could follow in parentheses, e.g., Churchill River (Hudson Bay).
(also Churchill River (Atlantic))
This Buna directly empties into the Adriatic Sea, while Bosnia's Buna is a tributary of the Neretva river. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Buna (Adriatic Sea) more as per examples provided by Ktrimi991. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Buna (Adriatic Sea), seems alright to me (and probably won't be as vehemently opposed as Buna (Albania)) 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talkedits) 22:27, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Ktrimi991's proposal, Buna is the name that should be used as per Wikipedia guidelines, Buna (Adriatic Sea) precisely disambiguates this river from Buna (Neretva) according to WP:NCRIVER, and it definitely solves the concerns of some editors above. – Βατο (talk) 23:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good proposal. HokutoKen (talk) 23:47, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't object Buna (Adriatic Sea) if this title is better aligned with NCRIVER.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good @Ktrimi991:. Going by that Churchill River example, "(Atlantic)" without the "sea" part is in the title. It would probably better to have it the form "Buna (Adriatic)" instead, so as the focus is the river itself, not the sea -as some people not familiar with the area's geography may assume at first glance. Thoughts (@Maleschreiber:, @Βατο:, @AlexBachmann:, @HotMess:, @HokutoKen:)?Resnjari (talk) 00:49, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Resnjari: I thought about it, though i chose to propose "Adriatic Sea" just for stylistic purposes. I am OK with both "Adriatic Sea" and "Adriatic". Choosing one over the other does not really make any harm. IMO, since the other editors agreed on "Adriatic Sea", lets keep that as the proposal so the RM does not look too messy for the closer. The question after all is Buna vs Bojana. If the RM is closed with a move, we can easily open a new discussion to sort out which is better, "Adriatic Sea" or "Adriatic". What do you think? Ktrimi991 (talk) 01:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One or the other is ok for me @Ktrimi991:, but Adriatic Sea will do. All good.Resnjari (talk) 01:33, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
sounds good to me 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talkedits) 12:51, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am fine with Buna (Adriatic Sea) or Buna (Adriatic) in principle, although this discussion has turned into such a mess that I am no longer convinced the page needs to be moved at all. * Pppery * it has begun... 23:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It might get even more messy, as nobody is coming to close it. haha Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:28, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Pppery:, many Balkan related topics end up messy, from my end its its more about seeing through the clutter and whether the case for change is substantive about if i throw my support one way of the other. Best.Resnjari (talk) 04:17, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. The arguments listed clearly explain why the page name needs to be changed to Buna. Typical Albanian (talk) 20:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neither river name is more popular than the other Indeed. And as per WP:NCRIVER, in such a case the name used for the longest section should be used as the article's name. A river shared between Greece and Albania is named "Aoos" in the Greek section, and "Vjosa" in the longer, Albanian section. Hence its article was named Vjosa a few years ago. The "conflict" with Bosnia's Buna and the "Ada Bojana problem" are not arguments based on WP:NCRIVER. Idk how your home wiki works, but here on enwiki there are some naming conventions that prevail over personal opinions. The fact remains that most of river Bojana is in Montenero You mean Montenegro? The first half of the river is entirely in Albania, and the other half is both in Montenegro and Albania, as it forms part of the border between the two countries. The closer can confirm this in the article or on GoogleMaps. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:15, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The fact remains that most of river Bojana is in Montene[g]ro, no matter of personal opinion or wisher and the fact also remains that all of the river is either in or on the border of Albania - whilst only most of it is on the border of Montenegro - in other words, it's objectively more Albanian than Montenegrin, no matter of personal opinion or wisher.
Regarding the direct conflict with Buna (Neretva) - well, User:Ktrimi991 already suggested renaming this article to Buna (Adriatic Sea) instead (per WP:NCRIVER, distinguishing via 'the largest geographical entity that distinguishes them') to solve that issue (scroll up a bit). However, if there are any alternative solutions you would want to propose, you may as well make the counter-proposal instead of waiting for someone else to WP:DOIT.
Not sure what the Ada Bojana problem actually is, because the name given to this article does not impact the Ada Bojana article (it would retain the Montenegrin name anyway, because that island is 100% Montenegrin - and links to Bojana (river) within that article would still function as expected).
However, I'll admit that I'm no subject matter expert re the WP:COMMONNAME debate, so I genuinely have no idea which name is actually more prevelant, or whether or not the arguments about stats being fluffed earlier on are valid or not, or what proportion of the local population are of which ethnicity and actually call it by a certain name. 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talkedits) 22:19, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@MareBG: saying that "The fact remains that most of river Bojana is in Montenero, no matter of personal opinion or wisher" is not factual. A simple look on any map will show that the river itself from near Shkodër up until the village of Samrisht i Poshtëm, close to the border is entirely within Albania. The river below Samrisht i Poshtem to the Adriatic Sea is split between Montenegro (west bank) and Albania (east bank). Combined, Albania has more of the river within its frontiers than Montenegro by 3 (both banks in the northern half, eastern bank southern half) to 1 (only southern western bank). "Neither river name is more popular than the other, and thus status quo should remain" the river is surrounded by a compact and dense population of Albanian speaking people with Albanian identity, mostly Catholic a few Muslim, even after Montenegro acquired its present border in the area during its territorial expansions/conquests in 1878 and 1912-1913. On both sides of the border, local Albanians use the form Buna, not Bojana.Resnjari (talk) 04:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've requested closure for this at Wikipedia:Closure requests. Natg 19 (talk) 21:51, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology of 'Bojana' (Бојана)

So, I noticed that this article currently discusses the etymology for the Albanian name of the river (Buna/Bunë), but says absolutely nothing about the Montenegrin name (Bojana/Бојана). Was the river simply named after the given name Bojana? Or did it have a completely different origin - I did stumble upon this blatantly non-authoritative source which suggests another origin which could be credible from the Vulgar Latin or the Balkan Latin “*boiana” (herdsman’s [river]), from the Latin “boviana,” meaning “herdsman’s.” (although the suggested etymology of 'being derived from Bayan I' probably isn't the case, seeing as he was based elsewhere).

Anywho, reason I'm bringing this up here is because I'm assuming that the authoritative sources on the matter are probably in Montenegrin or Serbian or something like that, and, well, I have no idea how to read any Balkan language. But, whilst there's still some activity here on the talk page, I may as well see if anyone here who does know what they're talking about can lend a hand to fill in this missing information. 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talkedits) 15:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. I also noticed the lack of an etymology for "Bojana". Yugoslav or Serb/Montenegrin academics should have elaborated, but a Serbo-Croatian speaker is needed to search for those sources. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:18, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have just added the hypothesis of a well-known Serbian linguist, Milivoj Pavlović. Krisitor (talk) 09:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pavlović’s hypothesis seems quite WP:EXTRAORDINARY - for starters, why would only the Slavic rendition of the river’s name be based off of the Boii, and second of all, what do the Boii have to do with anything related to the river Buna? Were the Boii even involved in a migration or raid to that part of the Balkans? To the best of my knowledge, the Boii never settled the region, nor had they even stepped foot there… Botushali (talk) 14:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pavlović's conclusions were accepted by Yugoslav experts of his time, and are still valid among post-Yugoslav scholars, as far as I know. Otherwise, I've also added a reference to Skok's major work, which was clearly missing here. Krisitor (talk) 17:28, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Boii connection is indeed extraordinary, and the mid-20th century sources used are too old to be included. I suggest to rely on more recent publications. – Βατο (talk) 17:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no Wikipedia rule stating that works dating from the mid-20th century have no place here. What's more, the works in question were published in 1966 and 1971-1974, so well after 1950. Per WP:RS and WP:NPOV, the prevailing rule is that all hypotheses must be listed, so I've added the one that prevails among experts in onomastics from the former Yugoslav area. Krisitor (talk) 18:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The etymology with the Boii is nonsense. I could add some really interesting etymologies based on "academic works", but when something is obvious crap we do not add it. There is also Cabej's claim that "Buna" comes from an Albanian word meaning "overflow of waters", but it has found no credible support; hence I am not adding it. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:45, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And yet you still cannot describe how exactly the Boii even relate to the river Buna - I recognise the efforts to include impartial views on the article, but when something is simply extraordinary, it really shouldn’t be included. This view on the Boii link is really unscholarly. Botushali (talk) 21:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is also the view that Slavs took the hydronym from the Albanians. Demiraj elaborates on its phonetic stages, but I would like to see the opinion of other, Western scholars too on the issue. Pavlovic also claims that Scardona was named after....a Celtic tribe, though high-quality scholars such as Wilkes and Hamp say it is part of the typical Illyrian toponymy. Pavlovic claims that Boeotia was named after the Boii. Find a decent scholar supporting that. Given that you once attempted to add a fringe claim that Albanians stem from the Carpi tribe, better make some more reading about the region's pre-Slavic history before trying to make relevant edits. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
from the Vulgar Latin or the Balkan Latin “*boiana” (herdsman’s [river]), from the Latin “boviana,” meaning “herdsman’s. If that Latin term does exist, that's the most convincing etymological attempt for an explanation of the name that I've come across. It's semantically impossible for a river to be named "battle -ana" or so. Names always make sense, this attempted Slavic/Celtic mediation does not, especially when the tribe in question that allegedly has given the name to Bojana and Voiotia has never set foot in (let alone seen) Albanian territories.
Latin toponyms do not constitute a rarity in Albanian territories, see Pukë (< Via Publica), Peshkopi (< lat. pescopus), Lipjan (< lat. Ulpius), so I wouldn't rule the "herdsman’s [river]" version out. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:16, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's semantically impossible for a river to be named "battle -ana" or so. Well, there is also the hypothesis that it could have been named after the given name Bojana (Бојана). (Бојана (Bojana) is the feminine version of Bojan (Бојан), which in turn comes from Бој (Battle)). Could it have been named after someone called Bojana (like how there's a lake in Africa and a river in Canada called Victoria)? (Genuinely no idea myself, and ofc no real evidence either way for either etymology, and just putting this train of thought out here for devil's advocate-y reasons so we don't just blindly follow an etymology which isn't supported by actual evidence) 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talkedits) 02:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bojana, if Slavic, would probably possess a Slavic suffix (-ina/-ova/…) indicating a personal name. I believe it wouldn’t be just Bojana. Slavic suffixes indicating such things as possessions are not uncommon, e.g. Uroševac (new name for Ferizaj, Kosovo) „City of Uroš“.
Nevertheless, one thing is sure: The Boii theory is to be dismissed. AlexBachmann (talk) 12:01, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of what point is trying to be made here, nobody has a convincing answer regarding how the Boii are even remotely related to the river Buna. It’s an extraordinary claim; claims that contrast against prevailing scholarly views are considered WP:FRINGE, whereas extraordinary views are just that, extraordinary. Botushali (talk) 19:36, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Klasen E.I. in his book New materials for the ancient history of the Slavs in general and the Slavic-Russians of the pre-Rurik period in particular with a light outline of the history of the Russians before the Nativity of Christ mentions that the Bojana river was probably named after given name Bojan, explaining that this was the name of Homer and that the river was named in his honor. Albanian E. Çabeju mentions that the name Bojana comes from the Albanian version of Buna, but that it also relies on the given name Bojan. Bulgarian Petkanov believes that both names are derived from the Latin toponym Boviana. Some believe that the name is derived from an appellative Boiana in Romansh and that the given names Bojan and Bojana originated from it. It is also mentioned that the name Bojana is older because the Slavs entered the city of Durrhachium in 546, while the Albanians from today's Romania settled those areas in the 10th century. -- Vux33 (talk) 06:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What does Durres have to do with the Buna now? I’ll just ignore the ridiculous sentence that you dropped at the end of your statement. Other than that, thank you for providing more sources. AlexBachmann (talk) 12:04, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the Bojana river was probably named after given name Bojan, explaining that this was the name of Homer and that the river was named in his honor do not tell me you are talking about that Homer. He certainly was not named "Bojan"... Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:27, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I would propose to come back to the proposal on naming using Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) where it is very clear, it does not matter how a place was called once, but how it is officially called today. Having that in mind, I think there is clear evidence that Buna in Albania (where most of it flows) is officially called that: Bunë. No doubt, it is important to note that in Montenegro the river is called Bojana, this should be clearly stated in the article itself. But, considering that only a very small part of the this river flows in Montenegro it sounds reasonable not to be the main name for the article. Anna Comnena (talk) 17:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've already noticed that the request suddenly stalled even though the request has been submitted almost one month ago. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]