• Oppose I accept that the people voting in support are doing so in good faith, and that most (if not all) recognize that this is going to become a Chelsea Manning article in the long term anyway. But Chelsea made this statement about her gender in no uncertain terms and that is to be respected under MOS:IDENTITY. Hormone therapy is incidental to that desire, and those following this know this has been a long time coming for her. I would also make a request that people in this discussion use the correct pronouns to address her – regardless as to whether you feel the move to Chelsea Manning has been a breach of policy, you must accept that this is what she is asking of you. Pez Dispens3r (talk) 16:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually my biggest problem with this whole debate is people telling me what I have to do. There is no framework for issues like this and it should be discussed and figured out, but I am not a person that likes to be told "you have to do it this way" especially when their reason is "I want it to be that way" or "It makes me feel better". Please stop implying that all gender identity issues have been worked out and that everyone agreees with you, some people are uncomfertable calling people who are genetically and physically male "her" and "she" for any number of reasons, not because we want them to feel bad, but because there are broad social and legal implications to letting someone decide for themselves as to how they are refered.CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support So far Manning has not underwent sex reassignment surgery, as such his personal preferences do not hold reasonable encyclopedic or common sense weight. No matter how many sources will refer to him as "she", biologically he's still a man. Accordingly, "she" should be reverted to "he" in the article for the time being. Brandmeister^talk 16:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, according to the current medical standards in most parts of the world surgery goes *after* social transition. This is a critical point. Morwen (talk) 16:36, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you disagree with the MOS:IDENTITY guideline, which states "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification", perhaps you should discuss it there. Current guidelines and policies do not indicate that sex reassignment surgery is necessary for pronoun change in articles. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'll concede when the name change will be official, so far I don't see it. But even then I think Manning should be referred to as "he" until hormone therapy or surgery takes place. Brandmeister^talk 17:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Strongly as there is no biological or legal rationale to refer to Manning as anything but male. If that ever changes, then change the page accordingly.198.161.2.241 (talk) 16:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose MOS:IDENTITY is clear on the pronoun issue and I think changing pronoun but not name is fundamentally nonsensical. Sources are increasingly shifting to use her chosen pronouns and names, and I suspect this is a trend that will continue. Kiralexis (talk) 16:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Unfortunately, I feel much of this RM discussion conflates pronoun usage with the article title. Which pronoun and gender should be used in the body of the article is a separate issue from the name used in the article title. Moving the article back to Bradley Manning, either temporarily while a formal RM discussion takes place or long-term, does not necessitate that the pronouns be changed back to he/him. (Nor does keeping it at Chelsea Manning necessitate that the pronouns stay at she/her.) -- tariqabjotu 16:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support moving back to Bradley. MOS:IDENTITY says nothing about page names. Instead,WP:COMMONNAME applies, which is Bradley. Manning's preferred name should of course be mentioned in the article, but it should not be the article title unless and until it becomes the common name. No comment on the pronouns issue, which is completely separate. Modest Genius ^talk 16:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, he is definitely male. Oh my God, I don't believe this title move... --Norden1990 (talk) 16:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Deep insights. Kiralexis (talk) 16:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Definitely deserves a medal... /s Trinitresque (talk) 16:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - per MOS:IDENTITY  █ EMARSEE 16:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per Rannpháirtí anaithnid, common sense, and general opposition to the use of Wikipedia as a platform for radical political advocacy (which advocacy is the sole reason Manning's article keeps being mangled to describe him as Anything-But-Male. I am aware of MOS:IDENTITY, and it is wrong. The standard a polite person might adopt for brief conversation is not the standard to use for encyclopedic coverage. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 16:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you think MOS:IDENTITY is wrong, take it up there, not here. Pez Dispens3r (talk) 17:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am not "taking it up" here. I am stating it. I state it because several people think that the existence of that page trumps such minor fripperies as sourcing and neutrality. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 17:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, xe has not legally changed xyr name. I have no objection using female pronouns or gender neutral pronouns within the article, but the title of the article must stay until Manning goes to court or whatever and changes xyr name. The guideline about transgender people getting to use their chosen name applies to cases such as The Lady Chablis who are better known by their drag name. Also, there is no need to wait 7 days to move it back; there has been plenty of discussion now. Abductive (reasoning) 17:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. One does not become female just by saying one wants to be. If he (not she) said he wanted to be black now, would you describe him as African-American?? Wikipedia should follow the lead of external sources and wait until the majority of the media decides he has changed his gender. Dirac66 (talk) 17:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Or, for more clarity, consider how we would handle it if Manning said he'd always felt that he was blue-skinned, and was thinking of getting a full-skin tattoo to match his body image. Would we mangle the article so as to imply that his skin was always blue? 168.12.253.66 (talk) 17:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - also per MOS:IDENTITY. It doesn't matter what their legal name is, we should be respectful and refer to them by their new name. We can, and currently do, mention their legal name in the article. Also, legal names, frankly, do not matter. The article on Bill Gates is not called "William Henry Gates III", nor is Lady Gaga called "Stefani Joanne Angelina Germanotta". Let's called them how they wish to be called and how people will now know them. - AJF (talk) 17:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support -- this page should be moved back to its previous title of Bradley Manning so a thorough discussion can take place. Haxwell (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support – obviously, he has not yet become a "she". Further stories about the "sex change" thing are not yet made. I cannot ignore all rules, right? That would imply that we could or could NOT change or keep "Bradley" and leave this case to ourselves. In fact, we misused Bradley's words about his future as "Chelsea" by changing pronouns and the article title. And we created a cheap gossip that is no different from tabloids. And we are entering a huge crisis/dilemma, putting Wikipedia into shame. Don't tell me that MOS:IDENTITY is violated; the guideline is very vague about this case. --George Ho (talk) 17:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Strongly Of course this needs a proper discussion before making this major and problematic change. Atshal (talk) 17:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support—No offense intended to the transgendered, who I'm sure have a rough time of it. My reading of MOS:IDENTITY says the name in common usage. The first page of Google News shows "Bradley" 18 times, and "Chelsea" three times. Obviously this may change in the future, and at that point I would support a move back. DPRoberts534 (talk) 17:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per MOS:IDENTITY and the basic principle that people are entitled to choose their own identity and name. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - legal name changes are irrelevant according to MOS:IDENTITY; even then, she's made such a change by declaring it publicly. It is not 'common sense' to use Bradley, nor should further sources be required when her gender change was made without any ambiguity. -Kairi Izumi (talk) 17:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - This is who she is. There's a reason the Identity policy is in place--transgendered people really do belong with the gender they identify themselves with. AJF makes an excellent point about the legal names, and those who say Manning is "definitely male" or whatever just don't know what they're talking about. Brettalan (talk) 17:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Support - This move was incredibly premature, and seems to be done only to please the social justice warriors. Wikipedia is supposed to be a neutral source, not a forum to push your gender politics. 142.161.97.237 (talk) 17:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per MOS:IDENTITY. As I have already stated, I think it was unwise to have made the initial move without discussion, but Wikipedia's position on this seems clear enough - We identify Manning by the latest expressed self-identification. I opposed previous attempts to move the article on the basis that Manning had not at that time made any public statement asserting a wish to be identified as female. Such a statement has now been made, and so far all objections made to the change seem to ignore the intent of MOS:IDENTITY - which is to defer to the publicly-expressed wishes of the individual concerned. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sourcing rules override the style guide invented by wikipedians. And in case you hadn't noticed, this alleged "wanting to be female" story is part of the lawyer's negotiation of the appeals process. Try not to make wikipedia look stupid, eh? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Consider a compromise; qualify the person as their original sex chronologically up to the point at which they assume/come out in a new gender role. The person was a male/female up until that point as a matter of fact.````

• Support Per CaseyPenk. When media outlets refer to Manning by his preferred name the title should change. What is taking place is a political battle over trans issues. Wikipedia is not and should not be the place to have that. While I'm sure all in opposition to the change mean well I can't realistically believe that this is not politically motivated. This is a controversial move and until a real discussion takes place I find it completely inappropriate to keep the article under "Chelsea Manning". --71.179.167.242 (talk) 17:40, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per Wikipedia:Article titles#Considering title changes: "Changing one controversial title to another is strongly discouraged. If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed. ... Any potentially controversial proposal to change a title should be advertised at Wikipedia:Requested moves, and consensus reached before any change is made. ... In discussing the appropriate title of an article, remember that the choice of title is not dependent on whether a name is "right" in a moral or political sense." This policy speaks for itself (and MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline not a policy). Richard75 (talk) 17:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Please move back to previous (stable) title. As a note of order, the move to new title was made without proper discussion and consensus, and therefore it should be moved back simply by default (per rules), regardless to this voting. My very best wishes (talk) 18:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support a move back to the name by which the subject is most widely known. - Cal Engime (talk) 18:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. If this had been a case of "Bradley Edward Manning" preferring to be known as, say, "Edward Manning", would we really be seeing so much resistance to the idea that a person gets to pick their own name? We have literally hundreds if not thousands of bio articles which respect the choice of their subjects to go by something other than their birth name: Bono, The Edge, Lady Gaga, Eminem, Gary Numan, David Tennant, Whoopi Goldberg, Ben Kingsley, et cetera et cetera ad infinitum. --GenericBob (talk) 18:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those subjects aren't at those names because they prefer them. They're at those names because reliable sources primarily refer to them as such. At least as of today, reliable sources are still primarily using the name Bradley Manning. Oren0 (talk) 18:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. Burma would rather be called Myanmar, but we don't, since (many) reliable sources still call it Burma.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See Lily Allen (wants to now go by Lily Rose Cooper) or Jay-Z (wants to now go by Jay Z) or Snoop Dogg (wants to now go by Snoop Lion) or Sean Combs (wants to now go by Diddy... I think). As opposed to the examples you listed, there are professional names we don't move articles to because they haven't caught on in reliable sources. So, in fact, I imagine if Manning chose Edward Manning, we'd be less likely to have this conversation, as we wouldn't have the hot-button gender identity issues floating around. It's been six hours since this announcement; we have no evidence of the name shift, at least not yet. -- tariqabjotu 18:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. It likely wouldn't be as much of a flamewar but the argument would be the same. Manning would say that she wanted to be called Edward, and we still wouldn't move the article until reliable sources started referring to her by that name. What if Manning expressed a desire to be referred to as "National Hero", would we move the article to that just because she desired that name? WP:COMMONNAME is the overriding policy here. Oren0 (talk) 19:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Oren0: I think you misunderstood me. My comment was in response to GenericBob (as the indentation shows). I provided examples of articles at titles different from the subjects' preferred names. My point is that, had there not been this contentious issue (gender identity) involved, this would have been an obvious case of moving back to the original title while attaining consensus for the new title (which, after all, is the impetus of this move request). You said nothing that I disagree with. -- tariqabjotu 22:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, I apologize for misconstruing your statement. Oren0 (talk) 22:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support moving back. First, this move was improperly done without consensus. Second, MOS:IDENTITY does not provide prescriptive guidance in this case regardless of repeated assertions to the contrary. It would suggest changing to the use of female pronouns, but it says nothing about names. Per WP:COMMONNAME, the page should be located at Bradley Manning until such time as her name is legally changed and/or reliable sources primarily refer to her by that name. Oren0 (talk) 18:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - The subject is still male in every meaningful sense. He is widely known as Bradley Manning and that is the name that he had while he had the majority of the notable experiences that this article covers. There has been no proper discussion of this move either. Count Truthstein (talk) 18:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support On procedural grounds, the move back is obvious. Those who have cited WP:BLP as an exception here have yet to back it up. And on merits, I'd probably support going back as well. Unfortunately, because the subject has also changed his gender identity, this has turned into a transgender rights issue. No, I don't see it that way. Manning could have kept his name and changed his gender identity. Manning also could have changed his name without changing his gender identity. Manning has decided to both change his name and his gender identity, but that doesn't mean they aren't two separate issues. Per MOS:IDENTITY, it seems we should call Manning by female pronouns, as that's her preferred gender identity. However, per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA, the article should be titled "Bradley Manning", as that is what's more natural and recognizable. Her stated preference doesn't require an immediate article title change. We haven't dropped the hyphen in Jay-Z yet over the past month. It took three weeks to move Ron Artest to Metta World Peace. Lily Allen still hasn't moved, despite her changing her legaland professional name to Lily Rose Cooper a year ago. It's been six hours since the big announcement for Manning; there is no evidence that this name has truly caught on in the mainstream media and in common parlance, and it hasn't been legally changed. This move was hasty and shouldn't be made until usage changes. The issue of gender identity should not obfuscate that point. -- tariqabjotu 18:26, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support move back to Bradley Manning. Legal name, common reference, etc, all mentioned above. — MrDolomite • Talk 18:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Oppose The fact that she wanted her name changed has been known for over a year now. 97.90.153.202 (talk) 18:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose for same reasons as given by McGeddon above. Bernarddb (talk) 18:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move back to Bradley. The Burma example is instructive. The regime wants the nation to be known as "Myanmar" but it still commonly known as "Burma", so "Burma" it is. Manning wants to be known as the female "Chelsea"; but he is still commonly known as the male "Bradley", so "Bradley" it is. (At least until more reputable sources use Chelsea, which is doubtful since the news-making part of Manning's life appears to have concluded.) Agmonaco (talk) 18:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• If Burma was a living person, the comparison might be apt. As it is not, the comparison is inapt. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per WP:UCN: "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. We do not know what terms will be used in the future, but only what is and has been in use, and is therefore familiar to our readers. However, common sense can be applied – if an organization changes its name, it is reasonable to consider the usage since the change." This is why we didn't rename Snoop Dogg's article when he changed his name willy nilly to Snoop Lion. There will have to be evidence that news sources start referring to her as Chelsea before a move discussion can take place. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 18:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per tariqabjotu. Precedent and policy dictates that the article title should use the most common name used to refer to the subject, and "Bradley" is the common name in this instance. The pronouns and name used in the article content are an entirely separate issue. --Dorsal Axe 18:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - For a trans person, prononus and name is not a separate issue. In cases like this, the name change is very much part of the gender transition. Either we respect the gender identification of a subject, which includes both name and pronouns or we don't respect it at all. -- KTC (talk) 19:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support based on reasons given by CaseyPenk, namely Wikipedia:Article titles. --DrCruse (talk) 19:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support.  White Whirlwind  咨  19:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. If the correct ultimate title is Chelsea, I don't see the point of moving back to Bradley just for further discussion. Discussion is already occurring, and a 7 day RM will give plenty of time to discuss the issue thoroughly. A lot of people are raising the legal name as an issue; it is entirely irrelevant to our guidelines and policies. It also makes no sense to suggest that we would wait for Manning to undergo sex reassignment surgery; you do that, if at all, after having socially transitioned in other ways, such as adopting a new name. The issue is an ostensible conflict between using the most common name and respecting the subject's gender presentation. While according to COMMONNAME we generally prefer the most common name, there are exceptions. I believe that the BLP ramifications of disrespecting a subject's expressed gender identity weigh heavily towards using the title Chelsea Manning for the article.--Trystan (talk) 19:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per WP:BLP, MOS:IDENTITY and common human decency. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - Move the article back to the name that's recognized. WP:COMMONNAME can be kicked around, but in a simple WP:IAR application, we shouldn't be abruptly and unrecognizably renaming an article based on a very recent revelation. Who s/he is may as well be irrelevant to an encyclopedia article, s/he performed the act that generated notability using one name, was legally charged under the same name, has been a very public discussion under that name, and so on and so forth. While the content of the article can be modified to reflect recognition of the person's choices, the title of the article should be something that someone who's not an avid newshound would actually recognize. The name of the article and the names and pronouns used in the article do not need to match if we want to recognize the person's choices. WP:NOTDIRECTORY could also be cited - the reason we have an encyclopedia article is not to better know the person, but to recognize what reliable secondary sources have said and present it in a reasonable fashion. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 19:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - The article was moved without consensus. The male name is definitely still more commonly used.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Support - This seems like a no-brainer. WP:COMMONNAME holds sway here. This subject is still commonly known as Bradley Manning. The article title should reflect that. Moving to Chelsea at some future date might be appropriate, but certainly not now. NickCT (talk) 19:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - Back when this all started, I would've favored keeping the title Bradley Manning per WP:AT, but also changing the pronouns to she/her/herself per MOS:IDENTITY. However, now that multiple media outlets have weighed in specifically to commend Wikipedia for having moved this article to "Chelsea Manning", moving it back to "Bradley Manning" would end up being seen as some kind of political statement against trans folks. So although I wish Wikipedia had never injected itself into the wider cultural discussion about this, it has, and the best thing to do is leave the article where it is and wait for the dust to settle. RSes look to be starting to transition toward referring to Manning as Chelsea, so hopefully this will all be moot soon. In future, though, we should wait for reliable sources per WP:AT, but change pronouns immediately per WP:AT and respect for the subjects of WP:BLP who are trans. Rinne na dTrosc (talk) 20:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• @User:Rinnenadtrosc - So your position is that we should do what "multiple media outlets" commend us for? That trumps policy? If Fox News and Rush Limbaugh commended us for moving Barack Obama to Nazi, should we do it? NickCT (talk) 20:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not exactly, although I can see why you might think that from what I wrote. My preference is for Wikipedia to avoid controversy that might harm the project. Initially, that would've meant waiting for reliable sources to start referring to Manning as Chelsea before moving the article, per WP:AT and WP:COMMONNAME. But now that this article has itself become a political football in the media, the quickest way for Wikipedia to regain the low profile that keeps it out of trouble is to just keep our heads down and leave well enough alone. I would not have favored the initial change, but now that this article is a rallying point for transgender/transsexual advocacy, I'd prefer that we just leave well enough alone. In brief: my position is that when we're in a hole, we should stop digging. The sooner Wikipedia is out of the limelight, the happier I am. This is an encyclopedia: it should be describing the world, not intervening in it. Right now, the easiest way to get out of the limelight is to leave the article where it is. Otherwise, there will be a spate of "Intolerant (mostly male) editors at Wikipedia move Manning article" pieces all over the media. Do you want that? I don't. I also have no desire to offend the many trans people for whom this issue is a pretty big deal, for obvious reasons. I would've opposed the move, but it's done now. Leave it. Rinne na dTrosc (talk) 20:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose for the style reasons given above and because sources determine content, i.e. that Manning identifies as a woman named Chelsea, not style, i.e. how to refer to Manning given this information. Labellementeuse (talk) 20:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• @Labellementeuse - That's shenenigans. Of course sources determine content. And we can certainly include the content that Manning identifies as a woman. But sources also determine names. And the GROSS GROSS majority of sources here call this subject Bradley. NickCT (talk) 20:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:COMMONNAME, "If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change." There are plenty of sources (the Guardian, the Independent, apparently about half of the New York Times) referring to Manning as Chelsea (and using female pronouns although I agree that the pronoun issue is distinct from the name issue); whether this is a majority might not even be relevant, considering the policy also states "When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others." Combined with WP:BLP, "the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment", I conclude there is a significant problem with titling the page Bradley Manning because of the harm done in misgendering trans individuals. Labellementeuse (talk) 22:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A reasonable policy citation, but WP:COMMONNAME unfortunately doesn't identify what a "name change" is. I mean, is it simply enough for an individual to say "My name is changing" for it to be so. Some folks might argue there is a legal process involved...... NickCT (talk) 23:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose'I know that Manning (I won't use the forename for reasons that'll become clear in a minute) wants to become a woman, and has thus changed forenames to Chelsea, but that does not mean that we should rename the article, for two reasons:

1) Manning has not yet undergone gender reassignment (he is still male, and I have read and heard somewhere that reassignment therapy isn't available in army facilities) 2) He does not wish to be known as Chelsea in everything he does - as part of the statement he issued, it clearly states:

"I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility)." (my emphasis). This means that Manning is still male, and until he undergoes full reassignment therapy, and agrees to be referred to as a female IN EVERYTHING he does or pertaining to him, I think the renaming of the article to "Chelsea Manning" was unnecessary. --The Historian (talk) 20:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, it does not in any way mean that "Manning is still male." Instead, it means that Manning is bowing to the unfortunate reality that the military won't deliver the mail to his preferred name.

Moreover, you are ignoring the fact that sexual reassignment surgery is the last step in a transgender transition. It is only performed after the person has begun living as the opposite sex for a lengthy period of time, has changed their name, undergone hormone therapy, etc. To demand that a person not be referred to as their gender identity until the last step in their transition process is utterly nonsensical and flies in the face of sexual identity science and common decency. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - as per WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, the first characteristic of a good Wikipedia article title is recognizability. It is obvious that, for now at least, Manning is recognized by his birth name. Wikipeterproject (talk) 20:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Nothing in WP:BLP or MOS:IDENTITY requires Wikipedia to change the title of an article of a convicted criminal (or anyone else for that matter) to a less recognizable name just because they say they prefer that name. If over time reliable sources describe this person as "Chelsea" and this person becomes better known as "Chelsea" (and presumably continues to prefer and use the name Chelsea) then it will be appropriate to name the article "Chelsea Manning." Until then it is rather ridiculous. That is not to say that the lede should not note that Bradley Manning now uses the name Chelsea or even prevent using female pronouns in the article. But it is way premature to name the article anything but the name this person is by far best known as, which is Bradley Manning. Rlendog (talk) 20:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - WP:COMMONNAME makes clear the policy on sourcing titles. Unless I am wildly misinterpreting, the intention of MOS:IDENTITY is clearly with regards to usage of pronouns and descriptive nouns in the article text (see the examples). The usage of female pronouns for Manning in the article is correct (according to current guidelines), but the change to a less commonly used name for the article title is in clear violation of policy. Yourself In Person (talk) 20:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move. Wikipedia should follow the preponderance of reliable sources. When and if the majority of such sources begin referring to Bradley as Chelsey, we can gather consensus for another move. But for now the article should be under Bradley. Andrew³²⁷ 20:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. WP:COMMONNAME states "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources" - Bradley Manning is now an inaccurate name, as Manning no longer identifies as Bradley; therefore, as stated, the name Bradley should be avoided even though it is still used by many media outlets. WP:COMMONNAME also states "if an organization changes its name, it is reasonable to consider the usage since the change" - although this only specifically refers to organisations, I believe the same principle should be applied to people. Furthermore, WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY mean the content of the article should use the name Chelsea and the pronoun "she"; it would be somewhat odd if the title of the article did not reflect the content. 86.16.146.123 (talk) 21:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support As a political statement against wikipedia's identity policy and the idea that a person can demand which pronoun another person uses. I think a fair statement in society is that we'll tolerate you doing what you want in terms of body modification and unusual sexual practices, and in exchange you can tolerate our freedom to use language as we please, and not try to enforce political correctness and thought crime.

• STRONGLY SUPPORT "The military medical system does not cover gender transformation procedures. It's not medically necessary," he said. "The military will say, 'You enlisted as a male. You're a male and you're going to be incarcerated as such.'" Source (S)He is a male, was through the entire trial, and will be throughout the entire prison sentence. (S)He has been and will be a male for everything that (s)he is notable for. Fightin' Phillie 21:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support WP:COMMONNAME informs cases like Malcolm X who changed his name and "identity" late in life, and it should inform this too. Shii (tock) 21:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose move. It is common courtesy to address and to speak of someone in the manner which they reasonably request to be addressed. Manning has asked to be referred to with the female pronoun and has apparently changed her name to Chelsea Manning. It is both simple and courteous to do these things upon the individual's request and announcement of intent to transition. Any other criteria are arbitrary and not set by the individual. BFWB (talk) 21:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you think Wikipedia respects "common courtesy" in any way, shape, or form, you've obviously never participated in the discussions about images of Muhammad, etc. Shii (tock) 21:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• SUPPORT. When Manning's first name is legally changed to "Chelsea", Wikipedia should reflect this. Until then it's "Bradley". A Chelsea Manning -> Bradley Manning redirect makes sense to me, a rename/move of the Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning article does not (yet). Yintan  21:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY. Even leaving aside common courtesy and the obvious ethical issues, calling her by an inaccurate name is against policy, regardless of how common that might be in older sources. FeydHuxtable (talk) 21:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• @FeydHuxtable - re "be in older sources" - By "older sources" you mean sources from yesterday? Dude, take a gander at WP:RECENTISM. NickCT (talk) 22:05, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• STRONG OPPOSE This is a matter of gender identity, not how one's reproductive organs are identified at birth. Federal agencies will in many cases refer to an individual by the name of their choosing. The article should be titled "Chelsea Manning". Dmarquard (talk) 22:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong support - No matter what he says, he is still himself. Also, the majority of sources have called him his actual name. We follow the sources unless they are biased. Surfer43_¿qué_pasa? 22:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• oppose In general we should call people what they want to be called. Simple as that. Lede should be very clear about the name issue though. Hobit (talk) 22:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• @Hobit - re "we should call people what they want to be called" - Ummmm... Do you base that on some established policy or is that just your own idle musing? NickCT (talk) 22:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Idle musing mostly. WP:COMMONNAME would come down on the side of keeping the name Bradly. But we also should, per other MOS:IDENTITY refer to the subject as "she"--something that would, IMO, make it very jarring to read the article. In any case, Metta World Peace would be a pretty good example where we use the desired name. So we have, IMO, policies that don't work together. Going with the IAR of "do the right thing" and call people what they want to be called. As a BLP issue, I think calling someone by a name they prefer not to go by is a problem. We don't have an article on "octamom" for a reason... Hobit (talk) 22:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• • • @Hobit - Though we seem have opposing viewpoints here, I strongly agree with what you've said re "So we have, IMO, policies that don't work together". Frankly, my sentiment is that WP:COMMONNAME is the dominant policy here, because WP:MOSIDENTITY is basically a policy about style rather than firm rules about content. Anyways, though we stand opposed I respect you reasoning. NickCT (talk) 22:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• If your rule were actually implemented, and WP:COMMONNAME thrown out, we would have a lot of articles to rename under Antipope. Shii (tock) 22:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• support. WP is an encyclopedia which relies on facts, in this case on the name in manning's passport. not on wishes. Maximilian (talk) 22:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose. Wikipedia rules and guidelines, including MOS and BLP, explicitly require us to respect her wish to be referred to as female and use the name she prefers. It would be a blatant BLP violation to do otherwise, and well as violate MOS. These rules overrule the opinions of individual editors on this talk page too, it is not allowed to ignore BLP. Regardless of this discussion and its outcome, the article is not going to be moved anywhere because it would violate BLP which takes precedence. Josh Gorand (talk) 22:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• @Josh Gorand - re " It would be a blantant BLP violation to do otherwise" - Really? Could you point to the passage in WP:BLP that says that? NickCT (talk) 22:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Referring to her as "he" is a BLP violation and gross sexual harrassment. Josh Gorand (talk) 22:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• @Josh Gorand - Look..... It's pretty obvious your POV is that Manning is a she. It's also pretty obvious that's just a POV and not something there is consensus for. So do you have a valid argument, or are you just stretching policy to fit your POV. NickCT (talk) 22:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Support - This isn't even a close call. This isn't an issue of gender identity. It's about notability. Bradley Manning is notable, "Chelsea" is not. An encyclopedia shouldn't change because a person decides they want to be called something else. If Bill Clinton announced he'd much rather be known as "Billy," are we really going to change the page? JCO312 (talk) 22:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Oh come on, let's be real here. Who the hell is Chelsea Manning? What he chooses to call himself now is utterly irrelevant. He is known to the world, very well-known in fact, as Bradley Manning and per WP:COMMONNAME until he/she becomes better known as Chelsea Manning then that's the name we should use. This is an encyclopaedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 22:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Manning's request to be identified as a woman named Chelsea is simply a request. Until such time that Manning's identity is legally shifted from Bradley to Chelsea, the article should be identified as Bradley Manning. And Adoil Descended (talk) 22:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, it's not a request. People decide for themselves what their names are, and which gender. Josh Gorand (talk) 22:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support While I think there's nothing wrong with being transgender, the level of activism here that has nothing to do with Manning makes me want to vomit. Please take your struggle for recognition elsewhere.Wasmachien (talk) 22:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support No evidence yet of legal name change.Eregli bob (talk) 22:27, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose It seems the main argument for moving back is that it's controversial and there needs to be a discussion first. I don't see how moving is a prerequisite for discussion. While I do think that it was improper to move it without a discussion, I don't think there's a clear reason to move it *back*. We're having the discussion now. As mentioned elsewhere, "legal name change" is irrelevant. WP:COMMONNAME states that for changed names, sources after the name change should be given weight. The name change basically just happened. We'll see in a few days whether news sources follow suit with the new name, which I guess they will, WP:BALL notwithstanding. PenguiN42 (talk) 22:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Manning has not yet changed his legal name and its not yet totally sure what is going to happen here. Lets give this some time to settle. Juno (talk) 22:33, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. The vague appeals to WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY are unconvincing. When Manning changes name officially, that would be a good time to move, not before. Even then, we go with common names, not necessarily official names. We're not going to have a Maria Sugarpova article any time soon... StAnselm (talk) 22:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support A person's name and a person's gender are two separate questions. It does not matter whether or not Manning is transgender or whether or not Manning has had sex reassignment sugery. Those are entirely separate questions from the question of Manning's name. The name a person chooses to use, their legal name, and their "common name" can be three different things. For Wikipedia's article naming purposes, it is only the "common name" that counts, not the self-chosen name nor the legal name. As such, for Manning her "common name" is still "Bradley Manning". That might change in the future, but today, it is still "Bradley". WP:COMMONNAME is clear. Her article should be called "Bradley Manning". 99.192.64.222 (talk) 22:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose: Bearcat, GorillaWarfare and SV put it well: a clear public statement + RS shift. It would have been smoother to make the change in a few steps, while adding sources and addressing in the article the suddenness of the shift in the mainstream media. But there's nothing to be gained now by moving back. – SJ +

  A more thorough discussion - for the benefit of this and similar cases in the future - should address the RS, timing, legal name and other style guide issues cleanly in one place. We could use a guideline specifically on how & how quickly a biography article should change its name, and what level of sourcing to require, during a public identity change: for different sorts of changes. I think at some point (before enough sources have transitioned) you'd want both names bolded in the first sentence, with explanation in the lede; later shifting to both names bolded in the other order w/ a title shift; even later going back through "What links here" and updating some of the inbound links, depending on context. The question for me is when we cross those lines. For an identity change w/ gender change, it makes sense to change the name at the same time as you change the pronouns - the alternative is simply confusing. I can't think of a case where we made these changes at different times. – SJ + 22:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. First, an initial matter, the appeal to WP:BLP as a reason to keep the article at Chelsea Manning (and to immediately undo any reversion to Bradley Manning is baseless. The BLP policy has nothing to do with the use of Bradley in the article title. The BLP policy is about protecting Wikipedia from defamation suits. It's about reliability. It is clear that subject of the article has commonly (and legally been known as Bradley Manning). This article name change dispute isn't affected by the BLP policy at all. There's no basis for applying it. Imagine if hypothetically, Manning had always been known as Chelsea Manning, and had never been referred to as Bradley Manning. Then imagine someone change the name to Bradley Manning based on original research or an unreliable gossip site claiming Manning had been known as Bradley. Then, WP:BLP might conceivably have something to do with it, as there wouldn't be any reliable sourcing that the subject had been commonly known as Bradley. That's not even remotely relevant to this situation. The WP:MOSIDENTITY very clearly puts titles and and gendered nouns under different rules. The existing policy very clearly states that Manning should be referred to by her latest expressed gender for pronouns, possessive, etc. (thus female in this case). It clearly sets titles by another standard, including policies for article titles. Manning is commonly known as Bradley Manning. Her expressed preference for Chelsea just happened. Until such a point that Chelsea becomes the common name for the bio subject, the title should be Bradley Manning. --JamesAM (talk) 22:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Inclined to agree that the initial move might have been a little premature. For someone who has been referred to as "Bradley Manning" by all and sundry for three years now, it seems unlikely to me that "Chelsea Manning" would be how they are now best known after only one day. A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 22:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. This was a straightforward application of policy. Sources in the media are going both ways, but there's plenty of "Chelsea Manning" sources out there. In the end, existing policy supports the change. The redirect means there is no practical confusion to be had - anybody looking for Bradley Manning will end up here. The case against following existing policy on trans people is specious at best. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Until the name is legally changed by the courts, the legal name is the one on the birth certificate. 5minutes (talk) 23:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support This page was moved prematurely without any discussion whatsoever. Bradley Manning may wish to be called Chelsea, but before he wanted to be called Breanna. What if he wants to change his name again? Katana Geldar (talk) 23:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support

Keep in mind that we've known Manning to be a transperson for a long time. However, when Manning named herself as "Brianna (Breanna?) Manning" we didn't change the article name, so why should we do so now?

• Support. NPOV: Manning's name hasn't officially changed, nor has his gender. The article title should change when he legally does so. This article is a joke. -- Randy2063 (talk) 01:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Invalid rationale as explained on this page a few hundred times now. Her gender has changed because she says so. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

23 August 2013

• Support. There are several other articles on real people using names they did not like or use for themselves. For example, Pretty Boy Floyd, which doesn't even have the excuse of being Charles Arthur Floyd's legal name at any time in his life; and Chad Johnson (wide receiver) who had his name changed legally to Chad Ochocinco. The mission of Wikipedia to provide information would seem to dictate that the articles be titled (and referenced on the Main Page, in this case) with the person's commonly-known name. Miraculouschaos (talk) 00:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Support If I had a Wikipedia article and then I suddenly claimed to be a dog, or a cat, would they change it to reflect such a non-sense? Biologically he is a man and will die a man (check his chromosomes XY), and legally he is a man (he even asks to be called by his male name in official stuff). It is stupid to change the wikipedia article... this deserves, at most, a brief section. Wikipedia is about FACTS not gay-lobby propaganda. Daniel32708 (talk) 23:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Manning is a living person who has said that her preferred name is Chelsea. Manning is notable under the name 'Bradley', but Chaz Bono was notible under the name 'Chastity' as well, so I don't see how that argument holds. The use of a redirect means that no one is going to miss the article using her former name, so the wish to change the name back comes less from a place of editor concern and more from a place of personal ideology.Nicholas Perkins (T•C) 00:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Wikipedia is not a soap-box for trans people to play with, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that should value quality over political correctness ten times out of ten. Coming into the page and seeing "her" and "she" all over the place while the picture is of a young soldier is laughable, and unthinkable in a Wikipedia just a short year ago. Josepharari (talk) 00:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. "I am a girl, call me Chelsea" is the worst move rational I've heard in a while. This page is currently laughable and embarrassing. I think some people need to settle down. Taylor Trescott - ^{my talk} + _{my edits} 00:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• (edit conflict) Oppose WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY make it clear that the most reliable source for a person's name is that person. Manning has made a clear statement that they wish to be known as "Chelsea Manning", and this statement is verifiable in multiple reliable sources. It is thus factual that the subject of this article is named "Chelsea Manning". As the titles of article should match the name of their subject and there are no technical restrictions or disambiguation issues, the correct title of this article is Chelsea Manning. Someone asked whether we would respect a name change to "Barrak Obama", and the answer is we would and the article would be renamed to "Barrak Obama (soldier)" or some other suitably disambiguated title. Thryduulf (talk) 00:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support While Manning's legal name renames "Bradley", Chelsea should only be treated as a nickname. I would be okay with with a title reading: Bradley "Chelsea" Manning, or something of that nature though. Mpgviolist (talk) 00:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose move. Chelsea has mad a clear and articulate statement as to what her gender identity is and why she chose to wait until after the first trial's judgement to make that statement public - as to not distract from the immensely reported-on trial. Clearly this is not anew issue and she has made a plan for starting her transitioning as soon as the military will conform to how the rest of US population already operates. Her gender identity is not a vote, it is her decision. As long as we also denote her former name there is no valid reason to counter her wishes except those who don't want to follow the guidelines.
• Oppose in the strongest terms as a matter of libel, which overrides every Wikipedia policy. The subject has clearly stated her intentions to transition and the name she intends to go by, and anyone remotely familiar with trans issues will know that it is unacceptable and much more than an issue of pseudonyms or nicknames to refer to someone by their pre-transition name or with the wrong pronouns. The "born as Bradley Manning" qualifier at the top of the article and quotations bearing that name are acceptable as they are pertinent to notable events, but routinely misgendering the subject throughout the article against their explicit wishes is not. Haipa Doragon (talk) 01:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Libel? Seriously? Which fact is being misstated by titling the article Bradley Manning? Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • The fact that it is no longer her chosen name. Using such a name (and pronouns) in a manner that misrepresents the subject as she currently is could be perceived as an attempt to slander the subject. Haipa Doragon (talk) 01:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Which is not libel. "Libel" is an important word in Wikipedia policies, so I'd suggest you use it with more care. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, it is libel, gross sexual harrassment, a BLP violation, a violation of MOS:IDENTITY, a violation of human decency, and obvously motivated by transphobic hate, to refer to someone who self-identifies as a woman, by insisting on using their former name with which they no longer identifies. And her gender identity issues have been known for years. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose Per MOS:IDENTITY. Manning has clearly identified her gender in a highly public venue, and should be referred to accordingly. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Bradley Manning is his name and unless changed, that should be the title of the article especially in consideration that his notoriety occurred under that name. Talmage (talk) 01:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, keep article name Chelsea Manning This is a transgender rights issue. Right to self identify is a major demand of the transgender rights movement and the process of getting government recognition of a name change is a discriminatory barrier of great offense to many people who support the movement. Manning has said in the clearest terms to the media that she wishes to be referred to with feminine pronouns and to be called Chelsea. This is sufficient. The use of this person's former name is contrary to this person's rights. Blue Rasberry (talk) 01:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Meh, Move back for now. The move was premature and should wait until they officially get their name changed. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support a restoration to his actual name, which is "Bradley Manning", per "recognizability, naturalness, and the general criteria for use common names for article titles" of the article title policy. Really, this is just LGBT politics run amok. Tarc (talk) 02:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Support and early close Is this some kind of a joke? His legal name is Bradley Manning and until this is reversed should stay that way per WP:COMMONNAME. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Wikipedia's actual clients -- you know, general readers not familiar wp-this and wp-that -- are going to expect to find an article on the name that's been in the news for months. During the notable part of the person's life they were know as Bradley so that's what the article should be titled. NE Ent 01:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:IDENTITY

For all those citing MOS:IDENTITY, that guideline relates to the content of the article not the the title of the article. This discussion is a move discussion. It relates solely to the title of the article, NOT the content of the article. The relevant policy page for this discussion is Wikipedia:Article titles.

I cannot even begin to imagine why people are citing WP:BLP. There are no BLP concerns affecting this discussion from what I can see.

--RA (✍) 18:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The general principle of BLP is that we have to have respect for individuals when we're smearing their names across the internet. I think it's misapplied here since we're confusing the reader to aggressively support the person's decisions, and that goes well beyond the dispassionate but polite concern expected for a Wikipedia article. Even if the policy says nothing specifically, the sense of the policy is correctly applied when being careful about how we talk about living people. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 19:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. I think it's being applied correctly--even if Octamom is the most common name, we don't have an article by that name for a reason... Hobit (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hobit, we have no need to look to BLP. Policy on article titles like Octomom is given in Wikipedia:Article titles (explicitly in that case). A title like "Bradley Manning" is not akin to "Octomom". Yesterday, there was no ambiguity about this person's name - or any sense that it may have carried offence. It was simply "Bradley Manning". Today, they asked to be called something else. We can mention that but we don't have to rename the article because of it. --RA (✍) 23:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

*.92, you raise a good point. I find something upsetting in the way the article was so aggressively altered and moved on the back of Manning's statement. It doesn't matter if the article is a little behind the latest tattle. We should be more sensitive before jumping and move with a greater degree of care on BLPs (where there is no urgent need for modification). --RA (✍) 23:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He is one of more than 6,000,000,000 people, he is just as special as everyone else. If he wanted to change his name to 'Barak Obama' we would not be having this discussion, the page would remain his legal name of Bradley Manning. VictusB (talk) 23:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Define what you mean by "respect". It certainly doesn't, even as a general principle, mean that articles should only contain information that the living person would choose to have in the article. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Referring to a trans woman using male-gendered names and and pronouns, including the title of the article, is deeply offensive and harmful. BLP asks us to consider harm to living subjects. I can think of few things more harmful to a subject than disrespecting their identification on deeply personal characteristics like gender identity, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. --Trystan (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the close

Just noting here that I've asked on WP:AN/RFC [9] and WP:AN/I [10] for an admin to close this who has had no prior involvement with the page. Hopefully that will make the close as uncontentious as possible. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gender identity

Is Bradley legally a female or male? In the article United States v. Manning Bradley prefers to be known as a female, Chelsea Manning, so it seems Bradley is a male, but like to be refered to as a female, so should we refer to Bradley as a male of female in this and the United States v. Manning? Casey.Grim85 (talk) 17:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bradley's legal status is actually irrelevant. The style guide states Wikipedia should refer to Manning using female pronouns. —me_and 17:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, there is debate as to what "The style guide" says, and how it applies, you should go read the debate yourself if you are truly interested. Many people are arguing that MOS:IDENTITY dosn't really apply in this case. CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay I was just wondering it all! Casey.Grim85 18:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Is it logical to refer to a person who is currently biologically male as "she", regardless of how they perceive themselves? Would this same rule apply to transvestites, who are generally referred to using the pronoun "he"? I think it would make more sense to use the term "he" until the time that he actually undergoes surgical procedures to make him a female; only after that point will it make sense to use the term "she". (Cf. Wendy Carlos, one of the more famous examples of gender-reassigned persons.) Otherwise, it's just confusing to the average reader at present. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. There are plenty of trans-women who still have male sexual organs, but consider themselves "women". Gender != biology. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:05, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He will serve his sentence in United States Disciplinary Barracks, which is a male prison. So in the eyes of the law he is definitely a man. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 20:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not the United States, and we don't have to describe people only in terms of their relation to US law. A trans person does not detransition just because they move to a jurisdiction with inadequate legal provision for transition. Legal recognition, like surgery, is typically quite a late stage of transition. One must typically identify and live as one's chosen gender for some time before either becomes available. And let's not lose sight of the fact that Manning's access to female socialization, and to HRT, are artificially restricted by her status as a US federal prisoner. She's done about the only thing she currently can to signal to the world that this is her identity. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Manning's gender is female. She has clearly stated this. Her biological sex does not reflect her gender, but that does not change the fact that her gender is female. The pronouns we use should reflect gender, not sex; so yes, it does make sense to refer to Manning as "she". 86.16.146.123 (talk) 21:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Manning is male. He might decide that he "identifies with" a oblique Vulcan transhuman tomale, but that doesn't make it true. Kotowing to the latest politically correct fad impresses very few and does little for wikipedias already shaky credibility.

"Support" comments riddled with transphobic commentary

The comments in support of moving the article on the individual who self-identifies as Chelsea Manning to her former name in the above survey are riddled with transphobic hate commentary (e.g. "If I had a Wikipedia article and then I suddenly claimed to be a dog"), that have absolutely nothing to do with Wikipedia policy, such as MOS:IDENTITY, and that should be completely discarded. As someone said, the move was a straightforward application of Wikipedia policy such as MOS:IDENTITY, WP:BLP, WP:RS and other relevant policies, and there is really nothing to discuss. There is no way this article is going to be moved anywhere. Filling this talk page with hate commntary and transphobia also violates WP:BLP, which also applies on talk pages. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Last I knew, Wikipedia policy applications were on a consensus basis, not the decision of one editor or even a group of editors. The move decision has not yet been made so there is plenty to discuss.Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:46, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Equally, I am deeply troubled by the idea of factoring visibly transphobic reasoning into any decision. The comments that are various forms of "but I reject trans identities" are problematic on several levels. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• • • If the sole stated rationale for moving back to Bradley Manning is that the voter does not like transgendered people, I tend to agree that that vote should be ignored, as it's a nonsensical rationale. However, if there is rational argument mixed in with bigotry, the rational argument should not be ignored -- even bigots can have good points once you filter out the bigotry. The implication by many opposing the move that anyone supporting the move is transphobic ipso facto is not helpful either. Miraculouschaos (talk) 02:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Consensus" doesn't overrule policy, and especially not BLP. Especially not a "consensus" of virulently transphobic people who completely ignore Wikipedia policy. We don't move articles because some people hate transgendered people, it's that simple. Josh Gorand (talk) 02:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps some of us, though I only speak for myself, really do not put any weight or credence in this sort of gender-bending stuff. Not every person on the planet subscribes to a liberal/progressive ideology, and I know it may ruffle your feathers but being conservative-minded is not thoughtcrime nor is it a disease or a mental disorder; or beliefs and ideology are just as soundly held as yours are. This guy is "Bradley Manning", a man and a male, both sex and gender. Period. Putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make a heifer become Marilyn Monroe y'know. Tarc (talk) 02:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Early close

... suggested at ANI. --RA (✍) 01:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This photo is sometimes described as "released by US Army" which means prima facie public domain and uploadable to the Commons. But in fact it was "introduced into evidence at his court martial" by the Army and in this way released to the media. Should the photo be considered a work of the US government or not? See the discussion at Commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Lho-133A.jpg.--Brian Dell (talk) 15:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Photo was taken by manning, and they own the copyright. Being reelased by the govt does not make it a govt work. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're being unclear by using the word "they" here. I thought you meant the government, instead of Manning. Just use a singular pronoun, please. Trinitresque (talk) 16:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

yo 88.66.37.221 (talk) 16:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To avoid confusion, please use the singular when you're talking about both an individual or an organisation. She for Manning, they for the government. Sophie means wisdom (talk) 17:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Manning was small for her age – as an adult, she reached 5 ft 2 in (1.57 m) and weighed 105 lb (47.6 kg)"

This is extremely small for a young man, borderline small for a young woman. Is it transphobic to seek clarity for gender-specific issues like this? †TE†Talk 16:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was unsure about this when I fixed up those pronouns. Honestly, I don't think it's particularly relevant to the article and could probably be deleted entirely. —me_and 16:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Of course not. Feel free to clarify the text to make it clear that the disparity was relative to her male presentation at the time. If you don't think you can word the text in an appropriate way then ask for suggestions or for help. —Psychonaut (talk) 16:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not very helpful to mention a weight without tying it to a specific date, since weight fluctuates. Moncrief (talk) 16:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

ThinkEnemies just killed it. —me_and 16:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, just tried to post and bam... another edit conflict. †TE†Talk 16:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Average height of a U.S. woman in 2008 was 164.1 cm (5' 4.6"), so that is not small. It is small for a U.S. male, whose average height is 178.2 cm (5' 10.2"). Source: http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/height-chart.shtml Statistically speaking, 93% of all adult American males are taller than a man 5'4" tall. I cannot remember that source -- my nephew in the UK was very short (his mother is very short) and my brother and sister-in-law were considering growth hormone therapy if the National Health would pay for it -- they would, but you know the NHS -- you have to wait forever. We were born in Canada, a Ted Cruz thing, eh? (English people are shorter, just an observation, and my sister-in-law is English. We're ethnically Anglo-Celtic) The best stats we could find when researching were on The States. (Note: For a U.S. man 6'3" tall, statistically speaking everyone he meets will be shorter; the equivalent was 5'4" tall on the short side, as at 93%, everyone that short U.S. man meets will be taller.) Two and one-half inches in a woman is not that much off the deviation as it would be in a man. (Btw, my nephew grew and is now taller than his dad! Thank you NHS for your delays.) Just because our culture privileges tall women (models), we should not make the error that 5'2", which is less than average in a woman yes but not radically so,is "short for her age."Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 17:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How about something like... "Manning is smaller than most men," or something? This is confusing...

Though there are not a lot of good statistics due to it being a small population, Manning is more than likely smaller than most trans women. Generally, though, I would challenge the usefulness of such a statement, especially if it is going to create such conflict in narrative. It does not seem factually important to compare Manning's height to other people, and I would question why it is deemed important. 71.90.172.117 (talk) 18:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

2 edit conflicts made me decide to make a subsection. This is just a quick FYI, there are a LOT of sub-pages attached to this article and I just moved all the ones I could find. IF you decide to move again, please make sure that all the relevant pages are attached. Thank you, Cheers! Coffeepusher (talk) 16:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

108.49.92.147 posted this comment on 21 August 2013 (view all feedback).

add a category in which Manning is clearly identified as a whistleblower who has exposed war crimes by the US military. add Manning's own statements in full, one in which he pleaded guilty in the beginning of his trial, and the one at the sentencing.

Any thoughts?

Brad (talk) 16:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Probably more useful to discuss why or why not he might be considered a whistleblower. I'm sure there are plenty of quotes out there for both positions. Brad (talk) 16:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why is Wikipedia referring to a biological male who identified as a male for the periods of time which are most relevant to the article as a female throughout? "Chelsea" was a boy when he was born, he was a boy throughout school, he was a man when he served in the army, he was a man when he did the leaks, he was a man when he was arrested, he was a man for much of his stay in prison.

We should not rewrite her past because she prefers to be seen as a woman now. Wikipedia should not sacrifice factual accuracy for the sake of political correctness. I think that we should refer to Chelsea as Bradley during the periods which she was named Bradley, and we should use the appropriate pronouns when we do so.

Let me list some examples of where political correctness results in things not making sense:

"Manning was regarded as small for her age – as an adult, she reached just 5 ft 2 in (1.57 m) and weighed 105 lb (47.6 kg) " As someone brought up before, small for a man -- but not so much as a woman. Understanding that she was small while identifying as male helps give insight into her life while she lived as a man.

"Manning was by then living as an openly gay man. Her relationship with her father was apparently good" Why are we misgendering a gay man?

"She gave an anonymous interview to a high-school reporter during a rally in Syracuse in support of gay marriage ..." Women do not get kicked out of their homes and lose their jobs for wanting to marry men.

These are just a few situations where misgendering Bradley can lead to misunderstandings. I understand why people wish to respect Chelsea's recent transition, but we should not treat her transition as if it took place retroactively. I believe that we should refer to Chelsea as Bradley and use the male pronoun following the introduction up until the section "Gender reassignment".

Am I a massive trans-hating bigot, or am I raising a fair point?

24.22.47.95 (talk) 17:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia does this because Wikipedia's style guide says we should. —me_and 17:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is precisely the problem. Per WP:IAR we should do precisely what the IP suggests immediately. jj (talk) 17:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The sourcing rules override any "style guide" wikipedians have invented. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to bring the same idea. Per WP:PG, policies and guidelines should always be applied using reason and common sense. Currently Manning is both legally and biologically male since, to my knowledge, his identity document and other official documents refer to him as a male. The present state of the article is indeed confusing. Brandmeister^talk 17:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The announcement is nothing more than part of the attorney's negotation process for the appeal. This PC-driven move lowers wikipedia's credibility even further (if that's possible). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I find it very difficult to reconcile your use of the phrase "PC-driven" with an assumption of good faith. Morwen (talk) 17:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your throwing around the term "transphobic" destroys your "good faith" argument. This story is nothing more than a lawyer's negotiation tactic, and you all have swallowed the bait, making wikipedia look even more stupid than it already does. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Women don't get kicked out of their homes for loving men, but trans women get kicked out of their homes for being "gay" (i.e., people not respecting their gender identity and calling them gay for being male-bodied and being sexually interested in "other" men. this is a very common issue amongst the trans populace.) 71.90.172.117 (talk) 18:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But Manning did identify himself as a gay man at one point of his life: "Amidst the disintegration of his family, pubescent Brad was coming to terms with his own sexuality. [...] He also told his two best friends he was gay. [...] “I was kicked out of my home, and I once lost my job [because I am gay],” he told her". Source Now some ideologically motivated people are anachronistically trying to rewrite his entire personal history by using the pronoun "she" at all times of his life. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 18:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gender doesn't change over night. It is not the case that she was a man up until her announcement then suddenly became a woman. Her gender will have always been female, but it is only now that Manning became certain of her gender and that we have found out. 86.16.146.123 (talk) 21:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently reads: "She will serve her time at Fort Leavenworth in Kansas in the United States Disciplinary Barracks." While the article on United States Disciplinary Barracks reads: "The USDB is the U.S. military's only maximum-security facility and houses male service members convicted at court-martial for violations of the Uniform Code of Military Justice"¨ By claiming that Manning is a "she", this article is essentially claiming that the USDB were a mixed-sex prison, which it is not... And anachronistically rewriting Manning's personal history so that all references are in the form of "she" or "her" seems kind of Orwellian: "We've always been at war with Eastasia"! This is insane. Political correctness shouldn't trump facts. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 18:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree about the historical rewrites, it makes the article really incoherent. I'm not sure why her declaration that she's a woman now should require changing past events when she wasn't a woman - there doesn't seem to be an issue in articles where people have just changed their names, they just use the identity that they had at the time they did stuff (e.g. Szmuel Gelbfisz was born in Warsaw, Samuel Goldfish was the Chairman of the board of Famous Players-Lasky, and Samuel Goldwyn started Goldwyn pictures) --Jeude54cartes (talk) 18:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's really a matter of perspective. I don't know Manning's particular story, but I do know that some trans people, say those born male, feel like "women" for much of their lives. So while we may say "Manning WAS a man when he was arrested", you don't know how Manning himself/herself felt at that point in time. So the revisionism is odd, but it does seem to hew a bit more closely in some cases to the actual inner identity of the person in question. --Obi-Wan Kenobi ([[User talk:::biwankenobi|talk]]) 18:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another instance of 'political correctness' being used as justification to launch an ad hominem attack on editors acting in good faith. If you say 'politeness' or 'common courtesy' instead of 'political correctness', the complaint disappears. 'Political correctness' is simply emotive language, an I-don't-like-it objection dressed up as a real argument. If you've got something useful to say, say it - all you show by objecting to decency is that you are unkind. AlexTiefling (talk) 19:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia had better hope that the general public doesn't learn that this "debate" is going on here; the result would be the total discrediting of Wikipedia--facts are being tossed aside for the sake of Manning's emotional needs. Facts: Manning's legal name is Bradley, official paperwork continues to refer to him as male, he will be incarcerated in a male-only prison, and for the next 35 years he will not be seeing a gynecologist. There is simply no question as to his maleness--except in his own head--and there for no basis for invoking MOS:IDENTITY. Manning's emotional needs, important though they are, do not override facts. He should be referred to as Bradley Manning, and as a male, until the appropriate changes are actually made in official legal documentation. At best, "Chelsea Manning" can be regarded as something like a pseudonym. This isn't transphobia; this is common sense. 208.163.239.119 (talk) 21:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/08/22/chelsea_manning_wikipedia_perfectly_reflects_new_gender_of_whistleblower.html

--Another Believer _(Talk) 17:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• •  Done. (See banner at top of talk page, below WikiProject banners.) --Another Believer _(Talk) 17:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• The statement "Wikipedia Beats Major News Organizations..." is precisely the reason this move was NOT appropriate. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:26, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

+1000 to the above. This is exactly the reason we should move it back. As for pronouns, I guess our policy means we should change them to "she",but the title should remain at Bradley until the news catches up. Odd but true.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This sentence is an example of what's in the article now: " Her father told PBS that he created his first website when he was ten years old. He taught herself how to use PowerPoint, won the grand prize three years in a row at the local science fair, and in sixth grade took top prize at a state-wide quiz bowl.[18]" Moncrief (talk) 17:34, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But what could've possibly gone wrong with quickly trying to retroactively mash up the biography of a man into one of a woman by replacing all the pronouns? --Jeude54cartes (talk) 17:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It was in the process of being fixed up. I'm sure a reasonably satisfactory version. It is quite hard to do this while there is a flood of editors reverting it back using spurious arguments and denying the validity of acknowledging trans people's identities on Wikipedia in general. I personally would much rather be using my energy on the article page, but I make it a policy not to edit war. Morwen (talk) 17:48, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I wish it were also your policy not to start riots, but, sigh, thank our lucky stars for partial virtues. :) --Mareklug ^talk 18:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In what reality is a BLP subject to wheel-war moves and overnight redacting of personal pronouns, not at all congruent with reality (was Manning a she as a child? As an enlistee in the US Army? As a litigant in military court verdict?) a Good Article. This article is a laughingstock for English Wikipedia at the moment, and the world is having a chuckle. This is NOT one of our Good Articles any longer. --Mareklug ^talk 17:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the article needs work thanks to the somewhat sudden change. Ericloewe (talk) 18:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Give it time for the dust to settle, otherwise open a Good Article Reassessment. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure it's gong to take longer for the dust to settle than for a GAR to pass, that said, I'm to lazy to read the GAR page, but I agree that it should be done. CombatWombat42 (talk) 23:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, let's start a discussion to try to achieve some sort of consensus on which pronouns should be used, so we can fix the incongruities that have been mentioned. I propose we move to using female pronouns in the article per MOS:IDENTITY, which clearly states "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions. Nevertheless, avoid confusing or seemingly logically impossible text that could result from pronoun usage (for example: instead of He gave birth to his first child, write He became a parent for the first time)." – GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Firmly disagree per common sense. jj (talk) 17:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Given the amount of discussion about this issue on this page, I think it's evident that this is not a "common sense" decision. To me, referring to Manning as "she" is common sense; from your comment, your common sense dictates the opposite. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@JasonJack it is hard to reply to you when you don't appropriatly use the threading system, please use an appropriate number of ':' infront of replies. I would agree that common since and policy here could be at conflit, but policy supports what GorillaWarfare said (in my intirpritation) CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't the place to vote on which pronouns to use, since they should follow the gender we choose for the title, but you are right that they need to be consistent. Right now we have botched paragraphs such as "The offenses he was convicted of carried a maximum sentence of 90 years. The government asked for a 60-year sentence to act as a deterrent to other soldiers, while her lawyer asked for no more than 25 years. He was sentenced on August 21 to 35 years and given a dishonorable discharge. Her rank was reduced from Private First Class to Private, and he will forfeit all pay and benefits. He was given credit of 1,293 days served, including the 112 days for her treatment at Quantico, and will be eligible for parole after serving one-third of the sentence. He may also be given additional credit for good behavior, and could be released in about eight years. that need to be fixed. ThemFromSpace 17:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that policy would support refering to Manning with female pronouns within article namespace. That said, that policy does not apply to talk pages (I am of the opnion that it should not apply to talk pages)), I personaly disagree with that policy, but as it stands, I would agree that the article needs to use female pronouns. CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Considering how quickly the pronouns are being changed in the article, I think this is the place to discuss. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, the article needs to be returned to what most valid sources call Manning. If you're concerned about pronouns, substitute "Manning" for the pronouns, and then you're safe. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The title has NOTHING to do with the pronouns. End of story. Prince changed his name to $#@% but that doesn't mean we followed. The title is based on WP:AT, which dictates common usage. If common usage moved to Chelsea, we will move the article. The pronouns are a separate case, and in this case I agree we should use the feminine pronouns, but not in a copy-paste way, but in a careful way. There's no issue with having an article titled "Bradley Manning" that says "She did x"--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You want to use "Manning" every time there is a pronoun in that article? We'd probably double the total length... – GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It wouldn't be great style, but it would make the article less fatuous - for the time being. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 18:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Especially as no valid source is saying "she" yet. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

God invented singular they precisely for such exigencies. --Mareklug ^talk 18:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why not use "it" until gender has been legally established? 65.51.209.126 (talk) 18:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is English not your first language, or are you just trying to be funny? Moncrief (talk) 18:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I personally disagree with the singular they, as I find it grammatically incorrect. "It" is unquestionably offensive. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The singular they (and its associated plural pronouns) has validity when referring to a non-specific person. (E.g., "The clerk tells each juror to give their response.") Using it to describe a specific person sounds patently ridiculous. Moncrief (talk) 18:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Um, I suggest you (and GorillaWarfare, as well) take a gander at Singular they#Acceptability, as well as the rest of that article, a much more cohesive Wikipedia creation then the one we are discussing. :) --Mareklug ^talk 18:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm aware of this, but as it says there, it's still an ongoing debate. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Um, I don't have to read a Wikipedia policy in order to know that, in English, using "they" as a pronoun for one known, specific human being sounds absurd. "George Washington was the first president, and they served with distinction." Pick your own example of a specific person, one with gender-identity disorder or not. The way the language is structured, it is utterly comical to use "they" when describing one particular human being whose name is known. It's an entirely separate issue using "they" as a non-specific, general singular pronoun. I see both sides of that issue, but it's not what's being discussed here. Moncrief (talk) 18:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It was sarcastic, because what has been done to this article is crazy. Perhaps, it should be "he" up until the letter dated 21 Aug from Manning, afterwords it can be Chelsea and "she". 65.51.209.126 (talk) 18:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is haphazard. Dealing with these issues is delicate, and search/replace does not work. It doesn't help that ppl have been revert warring. The best would be to allow a few admins who are versed in these issues (calling @Bearcat: perhaps?) to carefully go through the article and correct the pronouns. Exceptions can of course be made in certain areas, for sentence flow for example or when framing quotes.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am not going to become involved in whether Manning is now a man or a woman. But I believe it is wrong, clearly grammatically wrong, to use the pronouns "she" and "her" of Manning, in describing events that took place when Manning was a man or a boy. Sentences like "Her sister .. had been Manning's principal caregiver, waking at night to make her a bottle and get her back to sleep" are absurd — Manning was male at that time. (It would be similarly absurd if the article on Bertrand Russell referred to him as "Earl Russell" when describing events that took place before he inherited his title.) Maproom (talk) 21:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, how Wikipedia reflects the name and gender identity of a transgender person can never just be a question of "following the majority of sources" — precisely because the bulk of the existing sources about Manning were published before she announced her new name, it'll be a long time before the new sources that describe a woman named Chelsea actually outnumber the existing ones that referred to a man named Bradley. (And that's leaving aside the fact that some sources will undoubtedly not respect correct etiquette around transgender issues, and will continue to call her Bradley anyway.)

Rather, the principle that applies when a notable person comes out as transgender is an outgrowth of WP:BLP: as soon as her gender identity and new name are properly verifiable in reliable sources, neutral respect for her own self-identification trumps any other consideration. So normally, a page gets moved to the person's preferred name, and the pronouns switched to reflect the person's professed gender identity, as soon as those things are announced. (Admittedly we held off a few days when it came to actually moving Laura Jane Grace from "Tom Gabel", because we needed better clarification as to whether Grace was going to be her surname or a second middle name which was still going to be followed by "Gabel" as her surname, but the pronoun change happened right away as it should have.) The fact that the existing sources refer to Manning as "Bradley" instead of Chelsea is irrelevant, because they were published before we could properly verify any other name for her, and can't be retroactively changed now to say Chelsea instead — and anyway, the redirect means that anyone who searches for "Bradley Manning" is still going to find this article anyway.

It is also not necessary for a person to have completed SRS — in most places, a person has to undergo a program of psychological counselling, living as the target gender for a few years despite still having the opposite kind of sex parts, before they're allowed to have the surgery at all (and if you were transgender you certainly wouldn't want to be having your surgery in any place that didn't require that anyway.) At any rate, gender is not a question of what kind of sex parts you happen to have between your legs — whether you understand it or not, the phenomenon of a person's internal gender identity failing to match up with their external sexual characteristics is a rare but very real phenomenon for which the only known cure is to change the external body to match the internal identity. And, in fact, given how carefully privacy is maintained around medical issues, we're unlikely to ever be able to properly verify whether most transgender people are actually "pre-op" or "post-op" anyway — so that can't be the determining factor either.

Simply put, once a transgender person comes out and announces their new name, WP:BLP obligates us to respect their expressed wishes. It's no different than if your neighbour asks you to call him Robert instead of Bob: no matter what you personally think you should be allowed to call him, simple politeness demands that you respect his wishes and call him Robert if that's what he asks for. You don't have to like it if you don't want to, but WP:NPOV and WP:BLP are absolutely non-negotiable policies on Wikipedia and there is no other alternative that satisfies them. Bearcat (talk) 22:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Simple politeness" is irrelevant to how Wikipedia determines its policies, otherwise we would remove portraits from Muhammad and stuff like that. Shii (tock) 22:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Bearcat,Shii - Politeness is irrelevant. Verifiability is everything. Policies that you feel support your position are always "absolutely non-negotiable". NickCT (talk) 23:05, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

AYFKM? The manual needs work. I'm willing to accept that a man can become a woman, and that he doesn't need to do anything but want to be a woman for that to happen, but saying retroactively that he was a woman in the past is surely a bridge too far. The whole concept of "changing" sex implies there was one before the other. I'd allow for some slop in this, for cases where past events are adjectival, for example, "she was born in..." but saying something like (hypothetically, not about Manning) "she was the fastest boy on the high school team..." really gets strange. And I just don't like seeing a whole article redone based on events today. What happens with a transsexual (in general) if next week (s)he finds out there will be no way to receive hormones and gives up trying? I imagine that as our society becomes more enlightened about this sort of thing there really will be people who switch gender identity twice a month. (after all, what woman wouldn't want to switch around that time of the month?) Wnt (talk) 01:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If someone comes out as gay after being in an opposite-sex relationship, we don't write the article to state that they were straight up until a point and then turned gay, because our best understanding is that sexual orientation is determined at a very young age. The inference is that the person was always gay, even if they did not state it publicly (and may not even have accepted it internally.) Our best understanding for gender identity is much the same. Stating "I am a trans woman" carries with it the necessary implication that the individual has always been a woman, not that they decided one day to change their gender identity.--Trystan (talk) 02:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

KathrynBrooks1 (talk) 18:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC) There are many ambiguous pronouns in the article, making it difficult to follow. Also, there is one use of "they" that should be "he." This occurs in the section about secondary school in Wales.[reply]

KathrynBrooks1 (talk) 18:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Although I'm in full support of pronouns changing to feminine per her request, there's several places where 'he' has been changed to 'she' but the 'he' wasn't referring to the subject of the article, but rather someone else (e.g. Adrian Lamo). —Tony Webster (talk / contribs) 18:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I support this full-protection. Despite attempts to discuss pronouns/names/etc. here, the article is seeing no end of conflict on the issue. I'd protect it myself, but it would be improper considering my involvement in the issue to date. Oops, I misread this request. Anyway, I'm currently going through and fixing any inconsistencies I find. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I support this request. It's as if someone has used the "Find-Replace" tool in places. - AJF (talk) 18:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Can you be more specific where the error is, so that whichever admin is dealing with the request don't have to go through the whole article finding where you mean? -- KTC (talk) 18:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Passim. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 18:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Any changes should be in accordance with MOS:IDENTITY. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 Done I have changed all inconsistencies I could find. If I've missed anything, please let me know. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• A new edit request. There is a point where it says " if she wanted to harm himself, she could do so with her underwear or her flip-flops". It should be herself. Rgrasmus (talk) 20:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

but there's still a "himself" in a quote. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the confusion - it isn't a quote in the article, I was just using quotes in my comment to refer to what was written in the article. So it still needs to be changed. Rgrasmus (talk) 21:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict × 2)Added a new ((edit protected)) for this. —me_and 21:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict × 3) Yeah, it looks like it may have accidentally removed when someone undid an edit. Fixed now. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What about for the time being moving the page to the gender neutral Pte Manning, till the name issue has been resolved. To demand a legal name change is asinine as many transgenders change their name years before the courts will allow a legal name change, and this is never made an issue, so to make that a key argument now is just plain mean. 69.244.220.253 (talk) 18:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pte? What is Pte? Moncrief (talk) 18:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is an ongoing move discussion above; I suggest you put your suggestion there, rather than starting a new discussion here.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:34, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pte is the british Army abbreviation for Private (rank). The equivalent U.S. Army abbreviation is PVT. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Except Manning is, or was, a PFC (private first class). Pfe? That's a new one on me. Moncrief (talk) 19:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He was, but the court-martial reduced his rank to E-1, or private. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He was an American soldier, so "Pte" is no appropriate. Just spell out "Private". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just for transparency, I reverted an attept to add an Ominous Warning to the head of this talk page [11]. Many editors here are honestly discussing what the appropriate course is, and that includes consideration of whether certain style policies are correct. A banner suggesting that the policy cannot be debated, and that participants representing one side of the debate should be reported to a wikiproject (for some reason) is not helpful. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 18:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The talk page of any individual article is not the correct venue to discuss any potential changes to a general policy or guideline. -- KTC (talk) 18:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. That warning was bitey and inappropriate. ThemFromSpace 19:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@KTC:, were you agreeing or disagreeing with 168.12.253.66? --Redrose64 (talk) 20:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Redrose64:, neither. I was solely pointing out that this talk page is not the location for debating policy/guideline. The only opinion I have express on this page (so far) is up above in the RM. -- KTC (talk) 20:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed; which is why I added ((MOS-TW)). Despite not being worded as an "ominous warning" - it states agreed procedures - this action was apparently bitey. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have a real problem with all of the accusations of "Transphobia" being flung around on this page. There are a set of people that belevie Manning should be refered to with female pronouns (saying that that is what she wants to be referd to as and we should listen to her wishes) and a number of people saying that Manning should be refered to with male pronouns (saying many things, but chief among them is that he is currently genetically and physically male). Some people are accusing others of "transphobia", I don't think this is fair, nor does it help the debate. I am sure that some people are "transphobic", but I suspect that they are in the minority, and calling anyone that is just going to make them more defensive. "Transphobia" is this page's Godwins law. CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

An outright refusal to call a transgender person by their preferred name and pronouns, after becoming aware of such, is transphobia. There isn't a way around that - it's part of the definition. Even if someone has a very good reason for continuing to call Chelsea "Bradley" and use male pronouns in the Wikipedia article (which I don't believe there are), they should continue to call her by her chosen name and correct pronouns when discussing her. That is not something I see happening from the supporters, in this page, of reverting the page back to naming her Bradley Manning and male. 86.153.186.25 (talk) 19:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When Snoop Dogg decided he was Snoop Lion, was our unwillingness to rename the article an example of "rapper-phobia" or "reincarnated-bob-marley-entertainer-phobia"? The choice of pronouns is one thing, but hewing to the wikipedia guidelines around the common name of the article is nowhere near transphobia, and you weaken the term by throwing it around in such a fashion.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was not talking about the article in my statement above - please re-read it. Please then go and tell me how many people who support renaming the page back to Bradley Manning, and/or changing the article back to referring to Chelsea as Bradley, and/or changing the article back to using male pronouns for Chelsea, are using her explicitly chosen name and female pronouns when discussing her on this talk page. Whether there is a Wikipedia policy which prevents us from referring to her by her chosen name and pronouns in the article and title or not, the discussion on this page is transphobic. 86.153.186.25 (talk) 19:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever. People arguing that the article should be titled Bradley are not being transphobic, they are just following current policy. We can also IAR and title the article Chelsea, so it's just a matter for debate. Transphobia is much more serious, and while I agree there has been some ignorance shown above, painting everyone who wants to move the article back as transphobic trivializes real transphobia.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have not done as such. In fact, I have made only one statement to do with the argument that the article should be changed back, which is in brackets, which is that I disagree that there's any reason to. I have merely stated that the refusal to call her by her chosen name, and her correct pronouns, while discussing her, is transphobic, independently of what the correct thing to do with the article is. For example, I have not seen a statement like Support - While Chelsea is her new name, and I respect her new name and gender, this article should be changed to reflect her current legal name as per <insert policy here>. Instead, I see a lot of people referring to her as "him" while discussing her, which is by definition incorrect, independently of what they believe the article should say. Am I not being clear? 86.153.186.25 (talk) 20:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

getting better. But now you're just being pedantic. And you have still stated that people using the wrong name or pronoun is "transphobic". This I disagree with. It may be insensitive, or ill-informed, but "transphobic"? I'd say stop worrying so much about the fact that 6 hours after Manning's announcement, people are a bit confused with pronouns and names, and discuss the content, not the contributors.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) The logical fallacy here is that you've assumed everyone in the "support" category has used "Bradley" or "He" in their comments. You're also attributing the intentions of use of the name Bradley to some sort of maliciousness rather than habit, hurry, or mistype. The real question is how many people are intentionally disrespecting the subject's wishes? That question cannot be answered because you cannot be in their heads. Which, by the way, is why we have a WP:NPA policy. You can't prove your attacks are right or justified; so don't make them.--v/r - TP 20:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Manning should be refered to with male pronouns [… because] he is currently genetically and physically male"
I don't mean to be brutal, but I'm afraid such people are only displaying their ignorance, and anyone arguing support above based on such a viewpoint should be ignored. I wouldn't necessarily call them transphobic—they likely just don't know any better—but I would recommend they do a little reading, even just of the relevant Wikipedia articles, to cure themselves. LudicrousTripe (talk) 19:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) You are welcome to have that opinion, but WP:NPA requires you keep your name-calling to yourself and WP:CONSENSUS requires that good faith opinions be considered in determining consensus. Anyone arguing from an "anyone [verb]..." viewpoint should be ignored in my opinion. You may want to reconsider your time on this website if you give so little respect for any viewpoint that doesn't match your own. We generally frown upon that behavior whether we agree or not.--v/r - TP 19:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

LudicrousTripe, this is exactly what I am talking about, you have in effect just said to me you are only "only displaying their ignorance". You have made me deffensive by saying that. I can think of many good reasons to continue to use the male pronouns, but this is not the place for that. Just because someone disagrees with your world view is not a reason to call them ignorant. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Anyone arguing from an 'anyone [verb]...' viewpoint should be ignored in my opinion."
Would you like to dwell upon that sentence?

"you have in effect just said to me you are only 'only displaying their ignorance'"
That's my view, you don't have to like it or me. I didn't say such people were to be assumed as transphobic, but it is my opinion that their viewpoint stems from ignorance. Well, you can have the last word; continuing a discussion that arises from what I believe is hypersensitivity is not to my liking. LudicrousTripe (talk) 21:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dwell, yes, I wouuld. It appears irony is lost on you.--v/r - TP 01:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]