RfC - Is Operation Al-Aqsa Flood a military occupation[edit]

Plain and simple discussion: Does Operation Al-Aqsa Flood, part of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war count for a military occupation (which would have lasted for 3 days) for the list? The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 02:18, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Discussion

Being blunt, the controlling power of the Gaza Strip took over several military bases and towns, killing hundreds of people and you say they didn't have control over the territory or people? You my friend don't understand war. Sources were provided in the wiki-links above. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 02:31, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
A bit presumptuous of you to think you understand what I do or do not understand. Please provide a single reliable source that Hamas held any territory in Israel under military occupation. A source that directly says that. nableezy - 02:33, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
BBC, Times of Israel, & WSJ are three sources. Hamas 100% controlled several towns and military bases. (Joke comment, don't take seriously - Wow! I learned something new today! If you own a house and use/live in a house, you don't occupy the house! Who knew! You can live in a house you don't occupy!) The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 02:44, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Where do any of them directly say Hamas occupied any territory? BBC does not say occupied or occupy anywhere, nor does WSJ. At least TOI calls it an occupied kibbutz once, but that’s the closest you come and even then that does not directly support what you want to include. nableezy - 03:25, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Wikipedia's own definition of military occupation does not require that they setup a government.
All it states, on our own page on military occupation is this: ""Military occupation... is the effective military control by a ruling power over a territory that is outside of that power's sovereign territory. The territory is then known as the occupied territory and the ruling power the occupant... While an occupant may set up a formal military government in the occupied territory to facilitate its administration, it is not a necessary precondition for occupation." Military occupation
There is no requirement, as you've stated, that they "assert any authority over the governance of these places". That is NOT in the definition of military occupation. It literally is just that they have effective military control over a territory outside their sovereign territory. That happened. It even says that while they MAY set up some type of military government, it is NOT a necessary precondition for occupation. It can't get much clearer than that. Chuckstablers (talk) 03:14, 17 October 2023 (UTC)non-ec userReply[reply]
Wikipedia isn’t a reliable source and I have zero interest in arguing about any of this. Do you or does anybody else have a single reliable source that directly says Hamas held any territory under military occupation? One source directly supporting that claim please. Otherwise please stop wasting my time. nableezy - 03:21, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Marriam Webster Dictionary is a reliable source and it says, "control and possession of hostile territory that enables an invading nation to establish military government against an enemy or martial law against rebels or insurrectionists in its own territory" is the definition of military occupation. No requirement of a government to be established. You said you do not wish to argue/discuss it, which is your prerogative, but just know that your definition-reason is invalid. Cheers! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 03:24, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Continuing with the misplaced presumptuousness I guess. Still waiting on sources that actually support Hamas occupied that territory. And read that definition again lol. Control that allows for the establishment of a military government. Hamas did all that? Must have missed the news. nableezy - 03:28, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If you're not interested in arguing or debating, then might I ask what the point of your participation here is? Chuckstablers (talk) 03:32, 17 October 2023 (UTC)non-ec userReply[reply]
That debate that he was discussing is long settled. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source Wikipedia:USERGENERATED.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:41, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think you're misreading the chain of comments. I specifically laid out why, under international law, this was a military occupation. I didn't want to have to cite the multiple sources that the (excellent) wikipedia article outlining what a military occupation is on their own, because that's kind of a waste of my time when it's all already there. I'm not citing WIKIPEDIA on it's own; I'm citing the information from the sources that were used to make that wikipedia article.
You're talking about the map? If that's what the issue is, then why isn't the RFC about the map? I think we already reached consensus on that.
@Nableezy, if you're still waiting on those sources please see the comment at the bottom which lists them. I think we're up to 8. It's clear there's multiple sources which refer to hamas "militants" "occupying" "Israeli territory". Chuckstablers (talk) 04:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)non-ec userReply[reply]
I'm going to post this one more time.
International law DEFINES military occupation. Specifically, it is the Hague Convention of 1907 that define a military occupation. I'll quote from Regulations, Article 42:
"Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised."
Pretty clear to me. Chuckstablers (talk) 03:45, 17 October 2023 (UTC)non-ec userReply[reply]
Noting that this user recently said they did not comment about the map above in this edit, so the map above is evidence to Hamas controlled territory and this user does not disagree with that statement. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 03:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The Map does not say that Hamas held Israel territory in a state of military occupation. The map also isn't a reliable source but a user generated map based on reliable sources, but specifically doesn't back your original research.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:14, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Wouldn't "occupation", "capture", and "control" be synonyms? Thesaurus.com says "occupation" and "capture" are synonyms. That opens a lot of sources up, including ones linked above. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 03:20, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not sufficiently close synonyms for us to use one to mean the other in a context like this; occupation usually is in reference to not just taking control (ie, capturing), but holding over the medium to long term. BilledMammal (talk) 03:39, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-rockets-airstrikes-tel-aviv-11fb98655c256d54ecb5329284fc37d2"
"Militants occupied a police station in a third town, where Israeli forces struggled until Sunday morning to finally reclaim the building."
Sure sounds like an occupation to me. Especially since the Hague Convention of 1907 specifically lays out what a military occupation is. And this is manifestly the case. Chuckstablers (talk) 03:50, 17 October 2023 (UTC)non-ec userReply[reply]
That source would support listing here, as would the TOI source. However, I don't think two provide sufficient weight to add this to the list; if you can find a few more that use the word "occupation" then that would change things. BilledMammal (talk) 04:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • TOI - "Hamas appears to have singled out Be’eri as a symbol when it let a film crew make a journalistic broadcast from the occupied kibbutz, creating an unprecedented image of victory that resonated for many hours in Israeli social media and beyond."
  • The Guardian - "It was 7.30am. Boni would not survive. Zikim was one of 11 military bases to come under attack that morning, four of which were overrun." (Overrun = captured = occupied by Hamas)
  • Al Jazeera - 3 military bases captured/occupied by Hamas & "By late evening [October 7], Israeli troops were still working to clear communities overrun by Hamas fighters." (Overrun = captured by Hamas)
  • Palestine Chronicle - "This is How Al-Qassam’s Navel Units Stormed Zakim’s Fortified Military Base"
  • TOI - "The Israel Defense Forces has regained control of the Re’im military base in southern Israel, which houses the Gaza Division, from Hamas"
  • BBC - "A "significant number" of Israeli civilians and soldiers are being held hostage by Palestinian militant group Hamas in the Gaza Strip, the Israeli military says." & "In Kibbutz Be'eri, hostages who were being held in a dining room were rescued after 18 hours" (aka 18 hours captured and under Hamas control) & "A video verified by the BBC shows militants in Be'eri leading barefooted people along a street." (Hamas control of town confirmed by RS)
  • Reuters - "Hamas gunmen backed by rocket barrages entered towns and villages by the border." & "Be'eri kibbutz, where there were reports of 50 Israelis held hostage by Hamas"
  • J Post - "IDF regains control over Sderot police station" (Meaning they lost control of it to Hamas, who controlled it) & "Israeli authorities re-gained control over the Sderot police station early Sunday morning after Hamas militants seized the property, according to reports by Israeli media."
That being said, we don't seem to have a reliable source directly saying that this was a "military occupation" by Hamas. It is obviously a military occupation under international law, but it'd be a false equivalence if we're talking about putting it on the "list of military occupations". All of those would have multiple reliable sources directly calling them military occupations, and this does not resemble any of this in length, scope, power wielded, governance, and general character. I'd be hard pressed to support including it on that list if that's what we're discussing. Chuckstablers (talk) 04:31, 17 October 2023 (UTC)non-ec userReply[reply]
Actually, you may not participate in this discussion at all, as it is covered by ARBPIA. But no, all these "militants" + "occupied" = "military occupied" OR efforts are just that, OR. Unless the sources say Hamas held territory under military occupation then Wikipedia cannot say they held territory under military occupation. But Im striking your comments as non extended confirmed and ask that you refrain from participating in discussions you are barred from until you reach 500 edits. nableezy - 04:43, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I’m going to go ahead and WP:COAL out since myself and Nableezy have to agree to disagree now that some (definitely not all) sources have been presented in the discussion. Other editors that are EC are welcome to add more sources to the source list above. Note, even though the AP News source was stated by Chuckstablers (not eligible for this discussion), I would have re-added it to the list had that comment been struck, so consider that source in the source-list. Cheers y’all! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 05:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
A certain dispute needed to be resolved and it was used appropriately. I did it in good faith and all I get from you (an admin) and others is that it was nonsense. Being blunt, seems that I received a lot of people assuming bad faith instead of assuming good faith, which is what this RfC was in the middle of a content dispute on the article. Really? I tried to WP:COAL out as I stated my case and I personally feel it was good, but when re-checking it, several people are assuming bad faith against me and saying this is “nonsense”. Really y’all? Some of y’all (myself included here) need a wiki-break from the war, given that several editors (I have been guilty of this as well in a different discussion) are starting to assume bad faith. Now even an admin is saying a good-faith RfC is “nonsense”. Gee wiz. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:07, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@WeatherWriter: There's clearly an edit war as the history indicates. But I see zero attempt on the talk page aimed at building consensus. Please take a look at BRD. Also, per WP:ONUS, "The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." BTw, I am not an admin here and there's no bad faith against you, from my side. --Mhhossein talk 19:45, 18 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ankoko Island in Guyana[edit]

Hello. Shouldn't Ankoko Island be added to the list? It is an island in South America that has been under military occupation since 1966. The island is divided in two, with the western side belonging to Venezuela and the eastern side belonging to Guyana. Venezuela seized control of the entire island. The border was agreed upon in 1905 between the two countries. 66.97.31.2 (talk) 22:45, 7 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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