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Not a single source asserts a "Nir Yitzhak massacre", even primary Israeli news sources. The vast majority of sources on this page do not say anything about a massacre, and those that do exclusively refer to a broader massacre of 7 October. For this article to justify its standalone existence multiple reliable third-party sources would need to be included that specifically discuss a "Nir Yitzhak massacre", otherwise we're left with either WP:OR or the parroting back of biased news coverage. Dylanvt (talk) 15:28, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
Daniel, Dylanvt, Oleg Yunakov, VR, Oaktree b, Marokwitz, Arminden, Andrevan, BabbaQ, Eladkarmel, Dovidroth, Timothy, Abo Yemen, Homerethegreat, Gidonb, Sg7438, Agmonsnir, Eladkarmel, Ali Ahwazi, Nableezy, דוד שי, 93.173.65.132, Ronash, User:Longhornsg, Iskandar323, SaintPaulOfTarsus, Gonnym, Loksmythe, Chrisanthusjohn, ZimZalaBim, Jebiguess, Nythar, User:Super Dromaeosaurus I’ve pinged everyone involved in the three AfDs for the Holit, Netiv HaAsara and Nir Yitzchak articles, and everyone who has made major edits (excl. those who didn’t incl. edit summaries or only made cat changes) on them since their creation (please ping anyone I left out by mistake). If you’re not interested, I apologise, I won’t be pinging on these articles again.
I did say in my !vote that I’d be updating the articles to proper Wikipedia standards if they were kept, which I’m now going to do. I would however like these updates to be joint work by anyone interested from any side of the debate, so that the final articles, while maybe not fully pleasing everyone, will at least leave editors feeling that their thoughts have been included/considered to make the articles as neutral and verifiable as possible. Please discuss what you think is required for that to happen on each talk page. Remember WP:Civil and WP:Cool.
No one needs to tell me that my ideals are naive (I’ve been told before 🙄), but I honestly believe that it’s possible to work together on these articles if we follow the rules, despite the impossibility of the real life situation.
To that end I’m making some proposals below. I definitely don’t consider myself as OWNing these articles so you’re obviously free to edit the articles as normal.
I’m aware that some of you have recently been 3-month topic banned from this area which some of you are appealing. PLEASE DON’T RESPOND TO THIS until your ban is overturned, or over — I don’t want to get any of you into further trouble. I included you because I think it fair that you are aware of what’s happening post the AfD you participated in (and I’m actually not aware of all the people involved). ScottishFinnishRadish I’m pinging you just so you’re aware I pinged them and they shouldn’t be judged for my action (nor should they breach their bans). Thank you for your work in this area. Ayenaee (talk) 01:08, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Title (Source, Date, lang) |
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הגיבורים של קיבוץ ניר יצחק Video documentary: The Hero’s of Kibbutz Nir Yitzhak[1] (mako.co.il, 17 Oct 23, he) |
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תעשייה תחת מתקפה: הסיפור של מפעל כימדע בקיבוץ ניר יצחק (Industry under attack: The story of the Chemada factory in Nir Yitzhak kibbutz)[2] (Walla, 9 Oct 23, he) |
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Daniel's story: 'Hell broke out in our kibbutz. We want peace'[3] (Vatican News, 23 Oct 23, en) |
Daniel Lanternari (48) resident of Nir Yitzhak originally from Rome, give eyewitness observations of attack:
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Kibbutz Ein HaShlosha, Nir Yitzhak residents say terrorists still inside communities[4] (Times of Israel, 7 Oct 23, en) |
Kibbutz residents reported that there were still Hamas militants roaming around the kibbutz at approximately 14h00 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Elderly couple, abducted by Hamas, tell how they refused to be taken to Gaza[5] (Times of Israel, 12 Oct 23, en) |
Moshe and Diana Rosen elderly residents of the kibbutz were injured in their hands when Hamas militants shot the lock of their safe room. They were then walked to the Israel-Gaza border and told to proceed into Gaza. The couple refused. After heated discussion between Diana and the militant leader, they were set free and told to go back to the kibbutz, which they did. They were later treated in hospital for their wounds. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
משפחה שלמה, 4 מחברי כיתת הכוננות: בניר יצחק מייחלים לאות חיים מהנעדרים (A whole family, 4 members of the emergency team: Nir Yitzhak yearns for a sign of life from the missing)[6] (Ynet.com, 11 Oct 23, he) |
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פורסמו שמות חברי קיבוץ ניר יצחק שנלקחו בשבי או נעדרים (The names of the members of Nir Yitzhak kibbutz who were taken prisoner or are missing have been published)[7] (Ynet.com, 14 Oct 23, he) |
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How the IDF retook the Gaza border from Hamas terrorists[8] (Jerusalem Post, 14 Oct 23 en) |
Lotar unit cleared kibbutz of militants and protected residents overnight. They assisted in the evacuation of the kibbutz the next day. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Israeli father waiting, terrified, for news of abducted family[9] (Reuters, 20 Oct 23, en) |
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Israeli teen hostage freed by Hamas says her pet dog Bella was a "huge help" during captivity in Gaza tunnels[10] (CBS, 3 Jan 24, en) |
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Gabriela and Mia Leimberg, Clara Marman released; 2 family members still captive[11] (Times of Israel, 28 Nov 23, en) |
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Hamas hostages: Stories of the people taken from Israel[12] (BBC, 22 Dec 23, en) |
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Presumed captive: Lior Rudaeff, went to fight for Nir Yitzhak[13] (Times of Israel, 3 Dec 23, en) |
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Boaz Abraham, 61: Dog-walking, nicknaming farmer with big smile[14] (Times of Israel, 10 Dec 23, en) |
Initially missing and assumed to have been taken hostage to Gaza, his body was subsequently identified as having been killed during the 7 October attack. He was buried on 17 October. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Oren Goldin, 33: Mechanic, kibbutznik, dad of 2-year-old twins[15] (Times of Israel, 2 Dec 23, en) |
Initially missing and assumed to have been taken hostage to Gaza, his body was subsequently identified as having been killed during the 7 October attack. His family were informed of his death on 9 November. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Family of Gaza hostage Tal Chaimi say they have been told he was killed on Oct. 7[16] (Times of Israel, 13 Dec 23, en) |
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Funeral Service Held For Tal Chaimi, Nir Yitzhak Resident Killed On Oct. 7[17] (Getty Images, 15 Dec 23, en) |
Despite reports that his body was being held in Gaza on 13 December when his death was announced, there are 31 images of his funeral on 15 December, including images of his coffin being lowered into the ground. |
I’ve completed the update. It could probably use some ce. Ayenaee (talk) 22:14, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
The request to rename this article to Nir Yitzhak attack has been carried out.
If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using ((subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.)) and ((subst:RM bottom)) and remove the ((Requested move/dated|…)) tag, or replace it with the ((subst:Requested move/end|…)) tag. |
Nir Yitzhak massacre → Nir Yitzhak attack – The term "massacre" is loaded and thus WP:POVNAME. That would be ok if there was a "significant majority" of sources that called it that, but there aren't. Firstly, neither "Nir Yitzhak massacre" nor "Nir Yitzhak" appear to be proper names, so we will have to use a descriptive name, and WP:DESCRIPTORs should "be specific but neutral". Most English sources use the "attack" or "attacked" descriptor to describe the event (emphasis mine):
Hi User:Alaexis, thank you for the edit you did on this article, moving the picture used as the main image to the hostage section with the edit summary "the image is relevant to the Hostages section; the caption was misleading". [Please note that I operate on a WP:BD[R] not WP:BRD basis (don’t revert good faith bold edits, go straight to discuss, only revert if there’s consensus). But there are exceptions (vandalism, BLP breaches etc). In this case I believe your edit was in good faith, but there is a copyvio breach using this image anywhere but as the main image, see first point below. So I’ve reverted your edit, so the image can remain "parked" in its free-use place until we reach consensus. I’ve retained what you indicate you believe is not a misleading cation. Please don’t redo the edit until our discussion is complete
Mia Leimberg pictured in the image with her dog, Bella, and her father after being released as part of the Hamas-Israel hostage swop on 28 November 2023. Seventeen year old Mia, with four other family members, was taken hostage to Gaza during an attack on Kibbutz Nir Yitzhak on 7 October 2023. She smuggled the dog with her as she was being abducted. The abductors only noticed the dog when they arrived at the tunnels the hostages were taken to. They allowed Mia to keep the dog. She credits Bella with helping her to deal with the trauma of the situation much better than others. She, her mother, and her aunt were released together. Her appearance holding Bella surprised the media, and the public once the situation was explained...It will be the main image of the article in the infobox above the map currently there. The article was just closed as "keep" in an AfD because it meets WP:N, WP:V, WP:RS. However a major issue of concern was that that it was not balanced sufficiently. There are two notable (widely reported) stories of mercy shown by Hamas in this attack which should be highlighted. One is letting an elderly wounded couple who were being taken hostage return to their home rather than being taken over the Gaza border, which had already been reached. The other one relates to the child in the picture (Mia) and her dog (Bella). Mia and her entire family (aunt, aunt’s partner, mother, uncle) were taken hostage to Gaza. Only her father was not taken. Mia took her dog with her hidden under her pajama’s. The kidnappers only realised it was a dog rather than a doll when they reach the tunnels in Gaza where the family was kept. The mercy shown was that they let her keep the dog, which allowed her to deal with the situation with much less trauma than others (she had something to look after rather than only worry about herself). She, her mother, and her aunt were released in the Hamas-Israel hostage swop. The world was amazed to see Mia appear with Bella. It’s important that this story be highlighted. Using this picture rather than one of the horrible pictures of death used as main images for other similar articles, would go some way in adding balance to the article. I have searched everywhere I can think of for a free-use image of the image, but can’t find any. There are three main non-free versions: This one, one of her walking to freedom with two Hamas soldiers walking on either side of her, and one of her seeming to talk to the soldiers. The ‘soldier‘ pictures seem slightly threatening. This one is more appropriate for balancing and highlighting the event.
Bella helped get her through the ordeal.The wording "Her kidnappers allowing her to keep Bella, helped her to manage her trauma" assumes that this was the kidnappers' intent, which is not what the source says. Alaexis¿question? 14:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)