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Welcome to the discussion page of the article "Saraswat Brahmins" Please organize your comments .. it makes the page much more readable .. Leningrad 07:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
There are certain people attaching cherry picked articles which are nothing but propaganda against the community in question and they're vandalising this article
Vishnuvrida (talk) 16:38, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
People. Done some basic seggregation and created two new articles on the data from this articles namely Cochin GSB's and Chitrapur Saraswats. The saraswat article here needs more of substance and writeups on various other articles. Work on it guys and dont have any hard feelings for each other.
And do we do something about the list of saraswats???
Yessrao a.k.a Sushanth 21:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
What I propose is that lets have a broad write up of only Saraswat Brahmins here...and all the other sub communities can have a main article for themselves. Ready to help out?? Coz I feel it doesnt make sense to have CSB, Chitrapur etc in the main articles in their entirity.
And about people adding cochi GSB articles, I guess he or she has a write to. And there shouldnt be any talk of 'being endogamous' cos the entire saraswat community consists of multiple sects and divisions
Yessrao a.k.a Sushanth 20:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Cheers. No problems...
Amogh 20:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The list of Saraswats is getting too large....we should be having a separate wiki page for it rather than crowding this one making the overall look UGLY Sushanth aka Yessrao 21:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Dear Konknni friends,
Konkani Wikipedia has been started and been in test stage since August 2006.
Kindly contribute towards the Konkani wikipedia. We intend to make it a multiscript
Wikipeida. At least tri-script with Roman ,Devanangiri and Kannada scripts since these are the most popular ones.
We would like to get more articles/templates in place. We also need volunteers to do the thankless and boring job of transliterating it to different scripts .
As of now only two members are making active contributions. The more the merrier. Your contribution is vital to its success.
The url is given below:
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Konkani_Wikipedia
Dev boro dees deum! -Deepak D'Souza 07:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all ((Infobox Ethnic group)) infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Somehow this artcle seems to have a funny tone .. It maybe due to incorrect grammer .. for example a sub heading which says "othe name of goddess ..." please fix the grammer and tone of this article . Leningrad 07:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
A lot actually. This is one of the handful articles in WP which has text sections after external links. GDibyendu (talk) 14:49, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
When there are lots of proofs provided by eminent historian against the so called Aryan Invasion/ Migration Theory, how come this article use the same. Even Romila Thapar has accepted recently that AIT is not true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.184.192.192 (talk) 05:37, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, this section needs significant overhaul. Opinions are presented as facts, and no citations are provided. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.252.5.244 (talk) 02:38, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
I changed the intro para to correct this. AIT has been dead for a few years now, so the reference to "Russian immigrants" was ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rohufish (talk • contribs) 03:58, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
I have added citations and some text in the history section in order to improve the article and make it more credible. Was actually surprised that there is so little effort by contributors on this article. I have met so many people claiming to be Saraswat brahmins and so proud of their lineage. However, looking at the condition of this article it appears that not enough citations or credible sources of information are presently cited here. I am currently working on too many India & Kashmir related articles and for me to take this up right now would be a little difficult. However, if anyone has links to websites or information on Saraswat Brahmins that is credible, please do leave a message on my talk page. I promise to get back to this a little later. -Ambar wiki (talk) 15:40, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
Since sections like cuisine,food habit all has been covered in some other page .This section has been removed here.If any clash of data please let me know . Joshi punekar (talk) 13:49, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
But here directly it has been mentioned with the above mentioned community name “saraswat cuisine “ it is not Konkani cuisine or any generalised words . Joshi punekar (talk) 15:13, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
@the same time all the citation mentioned above are primary sources like news paper.When wiki started accepting news paper? Joshi punekar (talk) 15:14, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
It is also affecting neutrality of page.Since any page should be in the limit of neutrality but here simply some redundant information is floating. Joshi punekar (talk) 15:15, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Please do recheck the citation,2 are news papers Joshi punekar (talk) 15:38, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Other sources are primarily,to avoid this new page was created.Don’t you see ambiguity there.Only 2 caste mentioned(Ambiguity there too) at the same time it is mentioning whole saraswat community. Joshi punekar (talk) 15:42, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Kayastha have different origin but saraswat Brahmins don’t ,Here in the same region different Category works.Ex: Vaishanava doesn’t eat fish while smarta do but both are called saraswat Brahmins .At the same time in your talk page I have mentioned some list.This sentence is neither neutral nor particular. Joshi punekar (talk) 17:07, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
That’s why just search for saraswat Brahmin cuisine,there you will find all.If still want we can shift these primary stuffs to that page. Joshi punekar (talk) 17:08, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
But arrangement is more there and yeah I can provide reliable citation. we shift this content there to avoid conflict. Joshi punekar (talk) 17:27, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Marriages between Saraswat and non-Saraswat Brahmins are on the increase though they were unheard of before, mainly because the Saraswats eat fish and occasionally meat, while all other Brahmins are vegetarians
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=QLTfAAAAMAAJ Joshi punekar (talk) 17:39, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Some more citations are not clear looks primary source .It is quite clear instead of having neutral article we are ending with blunder.There is no rules like briefing anything when we have whole page. Joshi punekar (talk) 17:42, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
All the citation for above mentioned paragraph are not redirecting at all so can it be justified? “Marriages between Saraswat and non-Saraswat Brahmins are on the increase though they were unheard of before, mainly because the Saraswats eat fish and occasionally meat, while all other Brahmins are vegetarians“ In one source they meant with some other contrast but here it has been used as per their POV.This is what we term it as page without neutrality. Joshi punekar (talk) 15:39, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Frederick J. Simoons (1994). Eat Not this Flesh: Food Avoidances from Prehistory to the Present. University of Wisconsin Press. p. 284. Some citation like this is neither redirecting properly . Joshi punekar (talk) 15:41, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Ambiguity at it’s level best . If I start adding some actual content then the content will not be neutral and mythological characters will come at once!
Joshi punekar (talk) 15:47, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
First decide what’s neutrality and what’s not. For example in Deshastha Brahmins page I added one paragraph of English officer terming them as “Intelligent,brave,short and dark complexion” .Here to avoid racism I deleted dark complexion from that sentence (Go through the history of the page).This is called as neutrality of page. Hope this is clear.Waiting for your response. Joshi punekar (talk) 15:51, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Cross verify above statements then come to conclusion .It seems you want to pour your perception here. Joshi punekar (talk) 05:33, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
The Saraswats are a sub-group of Hindu Brahmins of India who trace their ancestry to the banks of the Sarasvati River.Saraswat Brahmins are highest order brahmins with high literacy.The saraswat Brahmins are mentioned in vedas,Ramayana,Mahabharata,bhagawata and bhavishyat purana.They are descendants of great saraswata muni.[1][2]
With citation I am keeping the info ,May I know in which basis you reverted ? Joshi punekar (talk) 12:57, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Saraswat Brahmins are highest order brahmins with high literacy.The saraswat Brahmins are mentioned in vedas,Ramayana,Mahabharata,bhagawata and bhavishyat purana.They are descendants of great saraswata muniIs unacceptable since it is based on mythology this WP:FRINGE. Do you think the text
He continued to recite the Vedic text by consuming the fish given to him by Goddess Saraswatiis reliable in an encyclopedic article about a caste. Totally not. On a side note, well known books like Mein Kampf considers Germans to be most intelligent, pure, etc. Do you think these books can be referred in the Germans article? Totally not. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:48, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
You want citation rite that there .As per your logic only citation matters.Isn’t it?From day one I am telling the samething to maintain neutrality of article but it seems like someone targeting some group. Mentioning name of Saraswat Brahmins in vedas,Mahabharata, etc it’s an information not mythology .I accept may be saraswat muni may be mythological for wiki but higher order is not like with any comparison with other caste. Joshi punekar (talk) 17:52, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Fylindfotberserk I doubt your neutrality mr.Fylind.I know your are Indian but in wiki make sure that you be neutral.Still come to discussion and tell me how It mythology ? Joshi punekar (talk) 15:27, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
FylindfotberserkFirst learn to mention the name if not how will I know about your message here? Joshi punekar (talk) 20:54, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Fylindfotberserk Pescatarians means strictly fish eater but have you ever hear someone calling vegetarians as vegetable eaters ?what’s your logic. Joshi punekar (talk) 20:55, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
..is the practice of adhering to a diet that incorporates seafood while abstaining from the consumption of food made from any other animal. The source doesn't pin point that Sarswats only eat "Marine fish" nor does it say they eat any other kind of "Seafood" (crustaceans, squids, etc.). Better to stick to the source. A vegetarian diet is a generalized term just like pescetarian here. It is always better to mention what kind of vegetables a group of vegetarians eat source provided. It is obvious that a Tamil vegetarian wouldn't eat the same type of items eaten by an Irish. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:24, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Marriages between Saraswat and non-Saraswat Brahmins are on the increase though they were unheard of before, mainly because the Saraswats eat fish and occasionally meat, while all other Brahmins are vegetarians
What it means?How it is related to diet and culture. Thanks, Joshi punekar (talk) 15:21, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
I think talking about relations between Deshastha and Chitpavan is totally irrelevant on this article. Yes, let us mention disputes between Saraswats and the Chitpavans during Peshwa rule but please keep out Deshastha, Karhade, CKP etc. out of this discussion. Thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 18:09, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
Acharya63 for suggestions. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:22, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
Let me clear one point here,Maharashtra saraswat doesn’t mean it’s Gaud saraswat Brahmins.It contains Rajapur saraswat Brahmins ,Citrapur saraswat and Saraswat from konkan .So be clear in your statement. Acchuta Sharma (talk) 04:33, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
When coming to saraswat and citpavan dispute, is related to politics(I have given reference for this).To avoid them towards administrator position,Saraswat superiority claim from Skandapurana and citpavana low origin made them to target saraswat. Gramanya is the best possible source for this if you want I can give reference. Acchuta Sharma (talk) 04:40, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Till 17th century saraswat had strong hold over konkan While citpavan were treated as low origin by saraswat (Check our the history or I’ll give you reference).In konkan Desastha were not there instead saraswat(With sub communities were termed as Bommans).I can give references for above mentioned statements . Regards, Acchuta Sharma (talk) 04:50, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
The merger is there but reason is something else it’s like saraswat wanted to take over politics that’s it!!!!.That’s not related to citpavan and saraswat. Secondly in my previous reference it has clearly mentioned as “Traditionally saraswat and Deshatha has been administrators in Deccan “..But saraswat brahmin Claim was based on skandapurana .They just wanted to destroy this book but Deshatha took it as advance and started called chitpavan as new Brahmins.These created competition for Pune authorities posts,(Reference available about gramanya) Acchuta Sharma (talk) 06:24, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
But I can prove anywhere like Deshatha had a very good relation with saraswats.But Chitpavan had very bad relation with saraswat particularly during peahwa rule. But historically saraswat and Deshatha worked together in Deccan kingdoms. Acchuta Sharma (talk) 06:30, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Before Deccan kingdoms era saraswats were administrators in Shilahara kingdoms,Yadav of konkan ,mauryas of konkan etc But show me one citation which gives account of citpavans being mentioned in konkan before Maratha empire ? Acchuta Sharma (talk) 06:32, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
One thing I have doubt here ,Why we are mentioning everything in the perception of citpavans.Saraswats looked down upon citpavans mentioning their origin in skandapurana.So as per this logic should we write these things in chitpavan page?!!!!.Doesn’t it look odd to mention others perspectives here? I agree if you mention Shankaracharyas or Madhwa Peeetha rejected but they didn’t.Infact grand guru of Adi Shankaracharya was a saraswat brahmin named Guru gowdapadacharya and first proponent of Advaitha siddhanta(Source:Shankara Vijaya authentic book). Acchuta Sharma (talk) 06:41, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
See how you take it’s left to you.Even I can ask why citpavans caste name is mentioned here in this page?Secondly what’s detorating statement here,I just mentioned the perspective of saraswats on chitpavan(@ the same time chitpvans have some other perspective).
In Goa temple priests/ Mahajans are only from castes like saraswats,padyes and Karhade.
Hope you have heard of sharada peetha(Kashmir) where Adi shakaracharya went for debate with pandits.That pandits are none other than saraswat Brahmins.
Nothing is detorating statement here I am just specifying perspectives errors in this article.
Still any debate please come to my talk page I appreciate debate with valid references.But keep caste away stay neutral then come to discussion.
Regards, Acchuta Sharma (talk) 18:23, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Here is the quote from Goa Indica: A critical portrait of postcolonial Goa, page 50 (you should be able to the see page on googlebooks at least partially). That is why we need to order things chronologically. I am only quoting because you asked for the quote. Thanks Acharya63 (talk) 19:13, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Hope now this talk page is neutral.Now let me tell you the actuality of Saraswat Brahmins as a whole.In North India they are called as Uttaratraya saraswat (Kashmir Pandits,Punjabi saraswat,Rajasthani saraswat.Sarsawat of Gujarat,Saraswat of banaras(Uttar Pradesh),saraswat of bengal). In south India (Gaud Saraswat Brahmins,mainly in Karnataka,Kerala and Goa......Rajapur Saraswat Brahmins mainly in Maharashtra,Goa and karnataka......Chitrapur saraswat mainly in Goa and karnataka.....Aadhya Gaud Saraswat Brahmins(shenvis) mainly in Maharashtra...Saraswat Brahmins mainly in Konkan).So here which Saraswat you are Referring as fish eaters/vegetarians and which Saraswat you are associated with chitpavans?Doesn’t it look strange? GSB are rich and popular that doesn’t mean they are only Saraswat Brahmins in south India.what about others? But when merger comes I can give you the list of reference which clearly indicates it was fight for Konkani language not caste.(reference:Goembab Shenoy)
Acchuta Sharma (talk) 21:40, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Not sure coz non of the source reference bifurcates the saraswat Brahmins here.But if you go in depth via multiple source,only shenvis were worried about caste at that time but Gaud saraswat had strong influence in konkan they just wanted to hold politics and implement Konkani .So that caste problem may be for Aadya Gaud saraswat Brahmin/ Rajapur saraswat.But still cannot tell at once and cannot be generalised though. Upendra Pandit (talk) 19:09, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
We need to expand on saraswats from other regions of India such as Punjab, Jammu, Rajasthan and Bengal.I am searching for information on these communities and will add content later.Thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 15:25, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
I just went through the page and don't understand recent edits since June that have basically reverted changes suggested by @Winged Blades of Godric: in June.
1)There are many grammatical mistakes.
2)There are some non-WP:RS sources (external websites) that are used as sources. A primary source(a Puran) is also used.
3) Gaudapada wiki page does not list his caste and says that even the century he lived in is debatable. So why is he mentioned here?
4)Why are Chitpawans being unnecessarily vilified on the saraswat page when it has no relation with Saraswat-Chitpawan relations? A brief mention -without going into details- that they had issues with other communities too(not just saraswats) during Gramanyas is fine IMO and it has been already mentioned. Their denigration by Deshasthas has already been explained on the Deshastha as well as the Chitpawan page and was an issue between Karhade/Deshastha and Chitpawans(as the sources there clarify). Why do we need it here when there is no relevance?
5)why was this old quote added by ARRaja removed? - please see [1]? Please see this diff for the exact quote from the book from which ARRaja took it=> [2]. Senior editor WBG said that we need to mention it - it is not an old issue(it has nothing to do with 18th century Gramanya based on jealousy that no one really cares about). This quote is about something much more recent - the merge of Goa-post independence. Also WBC has asked that this remain explicitly. Please seeUser_talk:Winged_Blades_of_Godric/Archive_Unsorted#Revert_all_5_edits? Acchuta Sharma, please read this discussion. There was another user who made the same mistakes.
Acchuta Sharma, or someone else, please can you go though the article carefully fix the article, especially the Social Status section? Thanking you in anticipation.The intent is not to hurt or denigrate someone but to make sure that sources used are reflected here accurately and avoid WP:SYNTH and WP:OR or out-of-context denigration and avoid WP:FRINGE. There is a special page for the Gramanyas where issues may be discussed in detail - a brief mention in a non-provocative way about gramanyas should be sufficient(as it is done currently). Editing this page is too stressful due to persistent edit wars - nor I am very knowledgeable about this community - but a cursory glance shows that it is definitely WP:OR. @Jonathansammy:@Fylindfotberserk:@Winged Blades of Godric:, please can you look into this if you have the bandwidth? Acchuta Sharma, please can you be more careful while editing - also please fix the issues above - especially the grammar? Personally, I do not have any strong opinions one way or the other on what should and should not remain on the webpage. So I leave it to other editors to decide. Thanks, Acharya63 (talk) 05:59, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
Don’t worry about those mentioned list it can be done but the matter of concern is should we mention chitpavan here?.Mentioning chitpvan in negative/positive shade only applies to that caste but mentioning saraswats in general will create ambiguity as author didn’t mentioned which subcaste of saraswat were looked down upon?.Historically it’s was termed as shenvis but what’s the subgroup is called now?.This is an never ending ambiguity in this page.If you have solution let me know . Regards, Upendra Pandit (talk) 19:44, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
@Acharya63: Hi, since Talk:Chitpavan#Jewish origin fringe theories justifies the inclusion of "legendary" origin of Chitpavans, I wonder if we should re include the following
According to S.M.Sonak(1995) Parashurama was a Saraswat Brahmin by birth.[1].Some Saraswats in Agra claim Ravana belonged to the Saraswat sub-caste of Brahmins.[2]
References
((cite book))
: Missing or empty |title=
(help)
- Fylindfotberserk (talk) 08:57, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
Upendra Pandit (talk) 19:15, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
The references used to refer to Gaudapada's caste here is from sources closely related to the person. I'm removing the content as per WP:Independent. Would suggest people to bring scholarly sources if it needs to be re included. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:35, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't think the sentence "In Maharashtra, till the rise of Peshwas, the Chitpavans held low social status and other Brahmins refused to dine with them
" here is relevant to the article on Saraswat Brahmins. Pinging @LukeEmily, MRRaja001, Jonathansammy, and Shivansh Kaul91:. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:18, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Hello @Fylindfotberserk, Acharya63, and Jonathansammy:
Its my first time contributing/editing on wikipedia and Im figuring how to go about stuff...so if theres any lapse/procedural mistake on my part, please pardon me but Idont think there should be any issue with it
(Cited the meaning of the word as used by the Portuguese(giving a reference) and deleted the statement:”, a word used for Vaishya community” which is irrelevant to this page)
how is the explanation of the word as used by the Portuguese irrelevant here?The word as used by them was merely a term for "trader"...it did not signify that they were from the Vaishya caste...adding the statement "a word used for Vaishya community" in continuation with Sanjay Subrahmanyam's sentence which ends at Chetti is not only irrelevant but also misleading as it makes it seem that Sanjay Subrahmanyam is making that statement
I think it is more relevant to cite the Portuguese interpretation of the word chatim which was a word used by them.For eg.If an american says,"I ate a biscuit" that would be a different thing from what a British referes to whem he/she says II ate a biscuit" and if someone were trying to elaborate on what the American person meant to say, they would give the American definition not some other nations definition of "biscuit".
And if it is irrelevant because the source given doesnt mention Saraswats,how is "a word used for the vaishya community" relevant?...the source for that doesnt mention Saraswats either.It should be deleted
Please consider reinstating my edits.If not,please let me know whom I can take this up with.
Thanks --Obramane (talk) 13:08, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
They are men with such a genius (tao naturaes) for merchandise and so astute (delgados) in every mode of trade that among our people (the Portuguese)when they desire either to blame or praise any man for his subtlety and skill in trade they say “he is a Chatim" should not be added, not to mention your source [7] doesn't establish a relation of the subject of the article with this specific word. Instead it talks about a different geographical region (Bengal and Arakan).
@Fylindfotberserk, Acharya63, and Jonathansammy:
Thank you for the prompt reply.Much appreciated.The reason for going through the trouble of presenting detailed explanations is that I am keen on making sure that the article gives a picture of the community which is unbiased and accurate-my intention is not to be argumentative or antagonise anyone.Apologies for the many edits...I need more practice with this.
Having gone through the list of other edits made to the article and reason given for not including mine,I request you to apply the same standard and rules for inclusion/deletion to all edits and contributions(If a certain standard has been used with one post,the same should be applied accross the board.I request you to state why you are rejecting something when a similar statement has been included previously)
I am presenting my arguments and logic in detail so that the grounds for approving/rejecting them be clear.Even so,if you feel the original unedited content is to be kept unchanged please let me know where else in Wikipedia to take up/escalate the issue since i find the unedited version redundant and more importantly misleading.Here are my arguments in favour of editing:
1)The region doesnt change the language used by the user (Portuguese)...at the very least not in this case...
For eg. an Englishman in the erstwhile Madras from the era of the British rule using the term "Bungalow" of Indian origin would have meant the same meaning as an Englishman using it in Lahore-it has no bearing on the meaning of the word
If not the whole sentence,a mention that the word "chatim" was used generically for traders by the Portuguese wouldnt be out of place and is infact highly relevant in this case and should be included
2)Going by the logic,that Chatim as used by the Portuguese in used Bengal and Arakan cannot be used to explain the usage in Goa,how can an explanation for the word chetti which has nothing to do with either Goa/the Portuguese/the Saraswats be mentioned?
If the word chetti needs to be explained by a third source(not the author himself) which has nothing to do with either the Saraswats or the Portuguese,why would there be a problem with explaining the word chatim?
W.r.t your reply "a word used for Vaishya community" is possibly to explain the relationship between the words "Chetti, Vaisya, and merchant caste"
3)First of all the word Vaishya has not been mentioned by Subrahmanyam,so there is no need to explain its relation to the terms Chetti or Chatim.Secondly,as the word chetti has already been linked to the Chetti page,the statement is redundant...someone wanting to know more about the Chetties can go to that page,the statement "a word used for Vaishya community" should be deleted
Sanjay Subrahmanyam does seem to suggest/equate Chatim with Chetti and has explained in as much detail as he wanted to by indicating that they were associated with mercantile activity (as were the Chetties presumably).If he wanted to elaborate any further on their ritual status OR the implications of their ritual status for that of the Saraswats' he would have done it himself-it need not be done by someone second guessing his intention.
And w.r.t your reply that my source doesn't establish a relation of the subject of the article with this specific word,
4)Neither does the source mentioned for "Vaishya" establish a relation with the subject of he article i.e Saraswat Barhmins.And if the word chetti which already has a page begs an explanation in context of the article,the word chatim is even more deserving of an explanation
Thanks, --Obramane (talk) 14:19, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
They are men with such a genius (tao naturaes) for merchandise and so astute (delgados) in every mode of trade that among our people (the Portuguese)when they desire either to blame or praise any man for his subtlety and skill in trade they say “he is a Chatim" is just irrelevant in the article. We are not discussing the qualities of Chatin. We are trying to figure whether Saraswats were called chatin by the Portuguese or not, which has been established by this source. Create a separate chatim article if necessary, where we can mention/explain the various iterations and meanings of the word.
...from Chetti, a word used for Vaishya community.can be discussed. Pinging @LukeEmily, MRRaja001, and Jonathansammy:. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:18, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
@Fylindfotberserk:Thank you. That Saraswats were called chatim and that the author thinks it is from the word chetti has been established.What the author has not mentioned or thought necssary to mention is anything about is the ritual status of the Chetti community.Even so if needed,there exists a page for it (just as you are suggesting I make one for chatim).
Moreover, using your logic of how the sources for chatim and vaishya "seems to establish that the terms "Chetti, Vaisya or merchant caste" are same (and so the Vaishya statement deserves a mention) ,on similar lines,doesnt the source and text [9] which makes it clear that the Portuguese used the term generically for traders and that it did not allude to any particular caste(when they desire to blame or praise "any man" for his subtlety and skill.... and that the terms chatin and chatinar(to trade) are "very commonly" used by them indicating chatin=trader/subtle and skillful trader similarly deserve a mention? This is the type of instance where I request for the same standards and rules be applied to all posts.
My intention is not to create a new page but to make clear the accurate meaning of the term Chatim and the context(non caste) in which it is used.
The statement "a word used for Vaishya community" suggests that "the ritual status of Chettis was Vaishya (and so) the Saraswats (who were also involved in mercantile activity) have the same ritual status"-which is not the case...For that matter the Saraswats have historically been employed in a variety of occupations-mostly secular and requiring high levels of literacy but that is besides the point
I request the admins to delete the statement "a word used for Vaishya community".In its absence ,I would have no reason to state This sentence → "They are men with such a genius (tao naturaes) for merchandise and so astute (delgados) in every mode of trade that among our people (the Portuguese)when they desire either to blame or praise any man for his subtlety and skill in trade they say “he is a Chatim"" .
Not to mention ,the statement is not even a part of the original text written by Sanjay Subrahmanyam--Obramane (talk) 20:27, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
@Fylindfotberserk, LukeEmily, and MRRaja001:
1)Any explanation or mention of caste/Vaishya assumes that Subrahmanyam uses the word Chetti to denote the community/caste of the people the Portuguese use the word “Chatim” (which comes from Chetti) for.
If he wanted to suggest such a thing he would have said something like “ a caste of open status….associated with mercantile activity -a function usually performed by the Chetti caste(OR a function performed by the Chetties who belonged to the Vaishya community/caste.)
Looking at the statement “Chatim from Chetti” it is possible (and even likely) that he meant it to denote merely the pronunciation/phonetics of Chatim and Chetti
Since one cant say for certain,it cannot be used to qualify his “open caste status” comment.
2)Subrahmanyam makes the “open caste status” comment in as much detail as he wants to.If he wanted to elaborate,he would.Adding to the text is not only unnecessary and somewhat inappropriate but amounts to second guessing the authors intentions needlessly...
Hence in the light of reasons 1 and 2,I think the phrase “a word used for the Vaishya community”should be deleted and the sentence should end at “from chetti”…as given in the original text.Kindly let me know if I that can be done-by me or someone else.
ThanksObramane (talk) 14:05, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
@LukeEmily:Wrt your statement “But Subrahmanyam does call them open status caste that claimed Brahminhood sometimes but was mercantile”
What the source says is,” a caste of open status ,which at times claimed Brahminhood but more usually was identified with mercantile activity “
The use of the word “usually” suggests that it was (at times/sometimes?) associated with other presumably non mercantile activity.
Is is important not to conflate “more usually was identified with mercantile activity” with “was mercantile” OR “was a mercantile caste”-that seems a little too sweeping.
Thanks
--Obramane (talk) 14:18, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
@LukeEmily: Thanks for editing the vaishya term.
Reverted the edit that was made to the Gaga Bhat part because:
1)It is mentioned in footnote no.59 on Pg279
2)Whether Pillai talks about the time before or after Shivaji is irrelevant.I am merely using a piece of information found in his book which is considered a credible source acceptable to Wikipedia regardless of what Pillai wrote the book for.
Also thanks for editing the Nilamata Purana part and pointing that the source wasnt a credible one.I will look for better sources.
Thanks againObramane (talk) 14:11, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
@LukeEmily: There are the following timelines in the article in this order 1)Post independence India (1947) 2)Goa under the Portuguese (From the 1500s) 3)Sociologist Pillai’s text (From 1997 3)The Deccan sultanates (Around the 1700s) 4)peshwa rule (Around the 1700s) 5)gaga bhat and coronation of shivaji from (in the 1600s) Not only is there no chronology,it is also irrelevant to the section
Also I did notice that it wasnt deleted and shifted elsewhere but that is not necessary. thanks Obramane (talk) 16:04, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
@LukeEmily: @Fylindfotberserk: @Jonathansammy: In some states such as Karnataka and in Maharashtra and Goa, their claim to be Brahmins is either currently disputed or not accepted as other Brahmin communities of the respective regions consider them ritually lower than themselves.
— I think we need to remove this from the lele as well as Karnataka and Kerala section. The author is explaining some scenarios in that book. Taking particular sentence and writing it in our own POV doesn't make any sense. I think we need to remove this. Other Brahmins may consider them ritually lower since they are fish eaters, but this doesn't mean that they are not Brahmins. What is your opinion on this? - MRRaja001 (talk) 06:22, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
References
@LukeEmily: @Fylindfotberserk: @Jonathansammy: First - I propose removal of this—Similarly, Saraswats of the Western Indian Konkan belt historically had no knowledge of vedas, no priesthood, and even ate non-vegetarian food, according to Sociologist S.D.Pillai, based on the studies by G. S. Ghurye. Claim of Brahminhood by communities such as these groups demonstrates that the Brahmin claim was available on other grounds and using legends to justify Brahmin origins. But the non-vegetarian tradition did not apply to Saraswats of the south.
from culture section in Maharashtra, Konkan, Goa sub-section. First source is from Popular prakashan, which is considered unreliable. Second source by Dennis Kurzon is just his opinion. Looks like using these citations someone wrote conveniently whatever they want. These are serious allegations. Without knowing Vedas and Vedanta how did people from the community became Peetadhipathis of Gokarna Math, Kashi Math, Chitrapur Math and Kavale Math. These Mathas have good following from Goa to Kerala. This citation clearly says that—S. Anees Siraj (2012), Karnataka State: Udupi District, Government of Karnataka, Karnataka Gazetteer Department, p. 189,
Second— As far as i understood from the source, the author is speaking about only Saraswats living in Basrur, a coastal village, which is present to the south of Goa - in the Karnataka coastal region. I think the author is using the terms such as "Saraswat Merchants" or "Saraswat Chetins" only to describe their character or skill, since majority of the Saraswats in this village were carrying merchantile activity, (i think the portuguese also referred them as "chetins" in the way). I don't understand why should we include this to Saraswat Brahmin article. What is your opinion guys? - MRRaja001 (talk) 16:19, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
All Saraswats have their own separate mathas. Chitrapur saraswats have Chitrapur Matha , Gauda Saraswats have Kashi Matha , Rajapuris have Kavale Matha (Goa) and Kudalas have Parthagali Matha.
@Fylindfotberserk: @Jonathansammy:, @MRRaja001:, forgive me gentlemen, took me a long time to get access to the books. But have a few. I also did some WP:OR . Based on what I have read from sources most scholars do not consider certain subcastes of Saraswats such as the Goan GSB(Shenvi) as Brahmins and that is the result of the confusion because I think the authors are referring to those groups[citation needed]. A group of scholars had made a formal legal declaration as the community being non-Brahmin.[citation needed] The Karnataka saraswat Brahmins are considered "new" Brahmins but accepted nonetheless as Brahmins according to the book. It took a long time for me to get the books due to covid. Fylindfotberserk, that particular statement has nothing to do with anthropometric measurements. It is supported by other sources. My suggestion is to avoid generalization by using specific author names when an opinion is given. Sanjay Subrahmanyam is a top quality scholar but someone removed the reference. See the Bunt_(community) varna section. The Gaud Saraswats do attach a "Brahmin" just as many communities attach a varna. Using the reasons above, we would have to remove all sources from all pages. Not mentioning any controversy at all is WP:NPOV. MRRaja001, I found about arranged marriages between Deshastha Brahmin men and maratha women in conservative places like Pune. It is 2021 upper castes generally intermarry. Marathas were upper caste(non-OBC) despite the ritual status which is different and has almost become irrelevant. I think lot of unreliable sources have been added on this page. Can we please discuss?LukeEmily (talk) 15:57, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
An Outline of Pre-Portuguese History of Goa(p 13) If they had been brought to Goa by Parashurama, earlier than this date, for performing sacrifices and to officiate as priests, then the question arises, how is that in the whole of Konkan and particularly in Goa, not a single Kshatriya, Vaishya, Sudra or other Hindu has engaged a Gaud Saraswat Brahmin as his purohit or bhat. On the contrary, it is found that a large number of Gaud Saraswat Brahmins themselves are engaging non-Gaud Saraswat Brahmins as their purohits.
. Basically, this matches with other sources. We should not be removing reliable sources unless that issue has been covered by another source. If we do that, every caste page will do that. LukeEmily (talk) 16:12, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
Table 7.3 Caste Classification of the Students under Vernacular Instruction ... Girls Boys Girls Boys Brahman 7 44 2 10 Shenvi (claim to be Brahman) 24 55 0 0 ..
Burton mentions that many of these Saraswat Brahmins were considered low caste and were also called “Sindhur,” from the vermillion ṭīkā (Hin. mark ...(here the source is discussing punjabi saraswats)
In Kolhapur where I joined the college , I had to search for accommodation , as there were no hostel facilities for Brahmins . Every other community had a hostel for its members – such as Saraswats , Prabhus , Lingayats , Marathas , Jains , etc(2003). Here he is treating them as non-Brahmin. Such sources make it so confusing. Imagine that there was a hostel for other Brahmins communities like Gujrati or Bengali. Would he have worded the sentence in the same way? He would have said: In Kolhapur where I joined the college , I had to search for accommodation , as there were no hostel facilities for Maharashtrian Brahmins . Every other community had a hostel for its members – such as Saraswats , Prabhus , Lingayats , Marathas , Jains , Bengali Brahmins, Gujarati Brahmins.LukeEmily (talk) 23:42, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
Temples in Goa are run by the Saraswat Brahmins.
The priests of this temple are Saraswats and Karhades.
When the Kadambas declined and were replaced by the Vijayanagara rule , during which the Saraswats were the priests of the famous temples in Goa.
It is noticed in the district, that people of different faiths such as Veerashaivas, Havyakas and Gaud Saraswats have their own priests and they are invited even by other castes.- MRRaja001 (talk) 07:03, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
Traditional occupations of the Saraswat Brahman community are priesthood , astrology (jothiksha) and preparation of janmkundali..- MRRaja001 (talk) 07:58, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
On the GSB talk page, I will add the details with page numbers from the dispute. My simple suggestion is that we should not have any opinions ourselves and only quote sources. But I will try to add it in such a way that it is not too negative. In my opinion, controversial opinions about an upper caste should not be emphasized even if mentioned. No need to add negative without reason. We should ask Sitush or someone else like an administrator for second opinion.LukeEmily (talk) 23:42, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
How many times will you raise the same issue. I won't explain you once again all the things. Refer to my first statement in this discussion for the discussion. Thank You - MRRaja001 (talk) 07:41, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
in my research, I have not come across any cases that challenge the claim of GSB or other similar groups of their brahmin status. I don't mean to be disrespectful but I have come across 20 modern sources at least that imply the challenge directly or indirectly.[citation needed] Please read Bairy's book and see the quotes. Also, please read other books/papers. [citation needed] I agree with you about removing derogatory content but that needs to be done from every caste page in the interest of fairness. My only intent in this discussion is to resolve Sitush's dilemma.[who?] I personally do not mind removal as long as we follow wikipedia rules of WP:NPOV and WP:UNCENSORED. I do not have any horse in this race. My concern is that we will be declaring a lot of sources as "unreliable" if we go down this path of removing modern well sources references and that is Sitush's concern as well.[when?] And we will be setting a bad example for wikipedia. Anyway, can we resolve this by two weeks time (around 18th)? Some of my book requests are arriving early next week. It will give me some time to read more and I will show you some quotes from the books I recently received in these two weeks.LukeEmily (talk) 04:41, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Similarly, Saraswats of the Western Indian Konkan belt historically had no knowledge of vedas, no priesthood, and even ate non-vegetarian food, according to Sociologist S.D.Pillai, based on the studies by G. S. Ghurye. Claim of Brahminhood by communities such as these groups demonstrates that the Brahmin claim was available on other grounds and using legends to justify Brahmin origins. But the non-vegetarian tradition did not apply to Saraswats of the south.I think the citations which i provided for their priesthood is enough to remove this statement too. - MRRaja001 (talk) 06:28, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
References
Please make sure that the article includes information on all Saraswat communities of India rather than just the GSBs. After all, there is a separate page for GSB. Thanks. Jonathansammy (talk) 13:11, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
The Saraswat Brahmins are : Kashmiri Saraswats , Punjab Saraswats , Sind Saraswats , Gujarat and Rajputana Saraswats , and the Konkani Brahmins of Goa , Kanara and Kerala.- MRRaja001 (talk) 14:09, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
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Sir I request you to add Dogra Brahmins of Jammu division to Saraswat Brahmin community types. Sharmasourav703 (talk) 11:03, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
Please refer “Sahyadri Khand of Skand Purana”for origin of Saraswat Brahmin . This is more authentic literature from Vedic era .
Western writers and authors are not authentic in their limited capacity & study and politically motivated to write articles during that era .
Just because OUP had some books written by few authors in limited study and not properly researched, but subject to socio political information available at that time can not be considered as authentic and do not become a source of legal and authoritative documents.
Wiki articles are motivated about caste and written with the intention to create a disharmony amongst the castes by various western editors
( seems to have specific agenda as like we see on Twitter and other social media) .
Indians don’t need to be told the history by western editors and group of specific people who are writing articles based their immature and opinion based studies. 2402:E280:3D4F:A3:9D63:ADA1:6B16:6B3B (talk) 07:49, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
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change the article to the sub sections of saraswats in karantaka are gaud saraswat brahmins and chitrapur saraswat brahmins] 117.248.83.94 (talk) 13:06, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
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Kindly remove the mention of saraswat brahmins as low caste, as it creates a sense of hatred towards our community. 103.199.175.21 (talk) 04:50, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
((Edit semi-protected))
template. M.Bitton (talk) 17:30, 20 August 2023 (UTC)In fact, you wrote something or the other on all the local Sarswat Brahmins, but did not mention anything about the Rajasthani/Rajputana-Sarswat Brahmins. You are requested to write something on Rajasthani-Sarswat also.. If you want, I can give information related to this, because I'm a Rajasthani Sarswat Brahmin. 106.205.202.87 (talk) 03:53, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
“The Saraswat Brahmins originating in Balochistan were called sindhur and were considered a low caste. They have a legend of origin related to Lord Ramachandra(not the same as Parashurama), who could not find a priest in Balochistan and applied a Tilaka on the head of some Mleccha. Jürgen Schaflechner cites the historian Rowe who states that such "low ranking Brahmins" formed a symbiotic relationship with Vaishya castes such as Khatris, Lohanas, etc. who were trying to raise their varna status - which in turn would benefit the Saraswats as well. For this purpose, certain religious texts were written during the British Raj era” This statement is under perspective section of source and related to one region how can it be valid and common to the page?
secondly no where it is mentioned as low caste and tilak on forehead of mleccha why it is mentioned here? Pondakar (talk) 01:39, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
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The Saraswat Brahmins believe themselves to be named after the mythical Saraswati river, which was thought to arise in the Himalayas and flow through the present Punjab and Rajasthan region to the western sea near Dwaraka, in Gujarat. Saraswat brahmins are mentioned in the Ramayana, Mahabharata and Bhavishya Purana.[1] The Saraswati river of Rigvedic and Vedic texts has been historically identified with parts of watercourses near Lake Pushkar in Rajasthan, Sidhpur in Northern Gujarat and Somnath in Saurashtra, Gujarat. A popular belief identifies it with an underground flow at Prayag, Allahabad, emerging at the confluence of Ganga and Yamuna to form the Triveni Sangam. It has been suggested that around 1000 BCE the Yamuna breached and permanently drained the Sarwasati, the most important water course of the Swati Valley civilisation and early Vedic Civilisation; the desertification of their homeland would have compelled the Saraswati migration to the other parts of Bharat Khanda. According to the Sahyadrikhanda of the Skanda Purana, ninety-six Brahmin families belonging to ten gotras migrated to Goa from western India, along with Parashurama.[2][3] Linguistic evidence for such a migration of Saraswats to Konkan and Deccan is based on distribution of Indo-Aryan linguistic expansions, beginning before 500 BCE.[4]
Lord Parshuram is considered as the sixth incarnation of Lord Vishnu. Due to the injustice done to his father and mother by the Kshatriyas, Parashurama took vow that he will ruin the entire Kshatriya clan from the face of earth,he sought revenge. He decides to do a huge Yagna to purify this earth from all sort of evil.At the same time period, river Saraswati of western India was hit by a calamity resulted in the entire region becoming the victim of drought[5]. The Brahmins that resided on the banks of this river had to leave their penance and study of Vedas there by worked for a livelihood by migrating to other parts of India this went on for a lot of years. When Saraswati restored her waters again the Brahmins delighted, thought they can go back to their Veda studies. But they had been so engrossed in tilling and planting that the entire clan forgot everything they had memorized about the Vedas.They thus, decided to do penance to impress the Vedas and the gods. The entire saraswat Brahmans did penance on devi saraswati. Finally, Devi Saraswati appeared in front of them and advised to listen closely. She said they will have to follow the voice. Thus, they will be able to find the solution for their problems. They followed her order soon they could hear chants of Vedas from far. They followed the voice and found a child reciting the Vedas. Devi Saraswati appeared and said, this child will teach them all the Vedas again. The Brahmins got offended on knowing that they will have to learn from a child now. When the calamity happened she realised that the Brahmins will lose the knowledge of Vedas. Saraswat was born to fulfil the purpose of keeping Veda alive. After listening to the story, the clan bowed in front of him and agreed to learn Veda from him. They, thus came to be known as Saraswat Brahmins.Alternative theory states they got name from the saraswat river.At the same time in the western India Parshuram decided to do a Yagna and needed the purest for land for the purpose. He walked southwards in India but did not find an appropriate place. Therefore, he climbed the Sahyadris. Prayed to Indra Dev and Varun Dev to pull his sea back. Parshuram said he will throw his axes as far as possible in the sea and where it lands the sea has to go back till the demarcation. The gods agreed and stepped back. Parshuram wanted to make this place the most beautiful place in the world. The place is now called KONKAN, the western coast of India, that stretches from Maharashtra, runs across Goa and Karnataka and ends at malabar[6].Now he wanted Brahmins to live in this place. But there weren’t any in south. He travels till Bramavartha region of Saraswati river where he finds a clan of Brahmins chanting mantras since they were in drought affected area,He invites them to live in Konkan as it is a flourished land and they were living in hostile conditions currently. They agreed and traveled with him to the west coast. This is how Saraswats first migrated from North to West in India. They settled in the Agrahars, a civilisation in west.Later in the future, they followed a Guru named Gowdapadacharya and thus they were named as Gowda Saraswat Brahmins or the G.S.Bs.[2][7] [8] Pondakar (talk) 01:52, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
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“The Saraswat Brahmins originating in Balochistan were called sindhur and were considered a low caste. They have a legend of origin related to Lord Ramachandra (not the same as Parashurama), who could not find a priest in Balochistan and applied a Tilaka on the head of some Mleccha. Jürgen Schaflechner cites the historian Rowe who states that such "low ranking Brahmins" formed a symbiotic relationship with Vaishya castes such as Khatris, Lohanas, etc. who were trying to raise their varna status - which in turn would benefit the Saraswats as well. For this purpose, certain religious texts were written during the British Raj era.”
In the source this reference is not mentioning about whole saraswat Brahmin community.Since this page is about Kashmiri,konkani,Punjabi and other north saraswat community.Mentioning the perspective History (Mythological) of One region(Baloch) community in the main stream without alternative reference related to this May not justify the info instead it will generalise.I have added the topic in talk so I request you to delete this section which is misguiding until further talk from the source. Pondakar (talk) 03:15, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
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The Saraswat Brahmins believe themselves to be named after the mythical Saraswati river, which was thought to arise in the Himalayas and flow through the present Punjab and Rajasthan region to the western sea near Dwaraka, in Gujarat. Saraswat brahmins are mentioned in the Ramayana, Mahabharata and Bhavishya Purana.[9] The Saraswati river of Rigvedic and Vedic texts has been historically identified with parts of watercourses near Lake Pushkar in Rajasthan, Sidhpur in Northern Gujarat and Somnath in Saurashtra, Gujarat. A popular belief identifies it with an underground flow at Prayag, Allahabad, emerging at the confluence of Ganga and Yamuna to form the Triveni Sangam. It has been suggested that around 1000 BCE the Yamuna breached and permanently drained the Sarwasati, the most important water course of the Swati Valley civilisation and early Vedic Civilisation; the desertification of their homeland would have compelled the Saraswati migration to the other parts of Bharat Khanda. According to the Sahyadrikhanda of the Skanda Purana, ninety-six Brahmin families belonging to ten gotras migrated to Goa from western India, along with Parashurama.[2][10] Linguistic evidence for such a migration of Saraswats to Konkan and Deccan is based on distribution of Indo-Aryan linguistic expansions, beginning before 500 BCE.[4]
Lord Parshuram is considered as the sixth incarnation of Lord Vishnu. Due to the injustice done to his father and mother by the Kshatriyas, Parashurama took vow that he will ruin the entire Kshatriya clan from the face of earth,he sought revenge. He decides to do a huge Yagna to purify this earth from all sort of evil.At the same time period, river Saraswati of western India was hit by a calamity resulted in the entire region becoming the victim of drought[11]. The Brahmins that resided on the banks of this river had to leave their penance and study of Vedas there by worked for a livelihood by migrating to other parts of India this went on for a lot of years. When Saraswati restored her waters again the Brahmins delighted, thought they can go back to their Veda studies. But they had been so engrossed in tilling and planting that the entire clan forgot everything they had memorized about the Vedas.They thus, decided to do penance to impress the Vedas and the gods. The entire saraswat Brahmans did penance on devi saraswati. Finally, Devi Saraswati appeared in front of them and advised to listen closely. She said they will have to follow the voice. Thus, they will be able to find the solution for their problems. They followed her order soon they could hear chants of Vedas from far. They followed the voice and found a child reciting the Vedas. Devi Saraswati appeared and said, this child will teach them all the Vedas again. The Brahmins got offended on knowing that they will have to learn from a child now. When the calamity happened she realised that the Brahmins will lose the knowledge of Vedas. Saraswat was born to fulfil the purpose of keeping Veda alive. After listening to the story, the clan bowed in front of him and agreed to learn Veda from him. They, thus came to be known as Saraswat Brahmins.Alternative theory states they got name from the saraswat river.At the same time in the western India Parshuram decided to do a Yagna and needed the purest for land for the purpose. He walked southwards in India but did not find an appropriate place. Therefore, he climbed the Sahyadris. Prayed to Indra Dev and Varun Dev to pull his sea back. Parshuram said he will throw his axes as far as possible in the sea and where it lands the sea has to go back till the demarcation. The gods agreed and stepped back. Parshuram wanted to make this place the most beautiful place in the world. The place is now called KONKAN, the western coast of India, that stretches from Maharashtra, runs across Goa and Karnataka and ends at malabar[12].Now he wanted Brahmins to live in this place. But there weren’t any in south. He travels till Bramavartha region of Saraswati river where he finds a clan of Brahmins chanting mantras since they were in drought affected area,He invites them to live in Konkan as it is a flourished land and they were living in hostile conditions currently. They agreed and traveled with him to the west coast. This is how Saraswats first migrated from North to West in India. They settled in the Agrahars, a civilisation in west.Later in the future, they followed a Guru named Gowdapadacharya and thus they were named as Gowda Saraswat Brahmins or the G.S.Bs.[2][13] [14] Pondakar (talk) 03:25, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
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The Saraswat Brahmins believe themselves to be named after the mythical Saraswati river, which was thought to arise in the Himalayas and flow through the present Punjab and Rajasthan region to the western sea near Dwaraka, in Gujarat. Saraswat brahmins are mentioned in the Ramayana, Mahabharata and Bhavishya Purana.[15] The Saraswati river of Rigvedic and Vedic texts has been historically identified with parts of watercourses near Lake Pushkar in Rajasthan, Sidhpur in Northern Gujarat and Somnath in Saurashtra, Gujarat. A popular belief identifies it with an underground flow at Prayag, Allahabad, emerging at the confluence of Ganga and Yamuna to form the Triveni Sangam. It has been suggested that around 1000 BCE the Yamuna breached and permanently drained the Sarwasati, the most important water course of the Swati Valley civilisation and early Vedic Civilisation; the desertification of their homeland would have compelled the Saraswati migration to the other parts of Bharat Khanda. According to the Sahyadrikhanda of the Skanda Purana, ninety-six Brahmin families belonging to ten gotras migrated to Goa from western India, along with Parashurama.[2][16] Linguistic evidence for such a migration of Saraswats to Konkan and Deccan is based on distribution of Indo-Aryan linguistic expansions, beginning before 500 BCE.[4]
Lord Parshuram is considered as the sixth incarnation of Lord Vishnu. Due to the injustice done to his father and mother by the Kshatriyas, Parashurama took vow that he will ruin the entire Kshatriya clan from the face of earth,he sought revenge. He decides to do a huge Yagna to purify this earth from all sort of evil.At the same time period, river Saraswati of western India was hit by a calamity resulted in the entire region becoming the victim of drought[17]. The Brahmins that resided on the banks of this river had to leave their penance and study of Vedas there by worked for a livelihood by migrating to other parts of India this went on for a lot of years. When Saraswati restored her waters again the Brahmins delighted, thought they can go back to their Veda studies. But they had been so engrossed in tilling and planting that the entire clan forgot everything they had memorized about the Vedas.They thus, decided to do penance to impress the Vedas and the gods. The entire saraswat Brahmans did penance on devi saraswati. Finally, Devi Saraswati appeared in front of them and advised to listen closely. She said they will have to follow the voice. Thus, they will be able to find the solution for their problems. They followed her order soon they could hear chants of Vedas from far. They followed the voice and found a child reciting the Vedas. Devi Saraswati appeared and said, this child will teach them all the Vedas again. The Brahmins got offended on knowing that they will have to learn from a child now. When the calamity happened she realised that the Brahmins will lose the knowledge of Vedas. Saraswat was born to fulfil the purpose of keeping Veda alive. After listening to the story, the clan bowed in front of him and agreed to learn Veda from him. They, thus came to be known as Saraswat Brahmins.Alternative theory states they got name from the saraswat river.At the same time in the western India Parshuram decided to do a Yagna and needed the purest for land for the purpose. He walked southwards in India but did not find an appropriate place. Therefore, he climbed the Sahyadris. Prayed to Indra Dev and Varun Dev to pull his sea back. Parshuram said he will throw his axes as far as possible in the sea and where it lands the sea has to go back till the demarcation. The gods agreed and stepped back. Parshuram wanted to make this place the most beautiful place in the world. The place is now called KONKAN, the western coast of India, that stretches from Maharashtra, runs across Goa and Karnataka and ends at malabar[18].Now he wanted Brahmins to live in this place. But there weren’t any in south. He travels till Bramavartha region of Saraswati river where he finds a clan of Brahmins chanting mantras since they were in drought affected area,He invites them to live in Konkan as it is a flourished land and they were living in hostile conditions currently. They agreed and traveled with him to the west coast. This is how Saraswats first migrated from North to West in India. They settled in the Agrahars, a civilisation in west.Later in the future, they followed a Guru named Gowdapadacharya and thus they were named as Gowda Saraswat Brahmins or the G.S.Bs.[2][19] [20] Pondakar (talk) 03:29, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
In occupation section related western saraswat 1.Sanjay Subramanyam is not Social historian instead he is economic expert.He has mentioned about the town called basrur where Saraswat Brahmins were involved in trading business. POV: Basrur town doesn’t represent whole community and economic author cannot be a perfect citation in this.If they term them as chetti will they become non brahmin,Portuguese era documents categorise western Goan sarawat brahmin as Bomman.
2.The same saraswat Brahmins were administrators and priest in the rest of konkan.Does it change their caste status. So seems highlighting POV.
3.Saraswat Brahmins and fishermen were involved in sea trading.Does this statement really make sense and is required here.The word fisherman is irrelevant as the take is about Saraswat Brahmins.
4.Story of mleccha tilak has been highlighted which as per author is related to Balochistan seems few more citation is required.Here LOW CASTE is highlighted.Main mythology of Parashuram has been deleted which was applicable for all saraswat subcastes.This is void of neutrality.
Pondakar (talk) 11:28, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
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“History section contains origin by the name Baloch sarawat instead I want to add history of whole sarawat in general.This need to be updated in History section May be sub heading origin”
The Saraswat Brahmins believe themselves to be named after the mythical Saraswati river, which was thought to arise in the Himalayas and flow through the present Punjab and Rajasthan region to the western sea near Dwaraka, in Gujarat. Saraswat brahmins are mentioned in the Ramayana, Mahabharata and Bhavishya Purana.[21] The Saraswati river of Rigvedic and Vedic texts has been historically identified with parts of watercourses near Lake Pushkar in Rajasthan, Sidhpur in Northern Gujarat and Somnath in Saurashtra, Gujarat. A popular belief identifies it with an underground flow at Prayag, Allahabad, emerging at the confluence of Ganga and Yamuna to form the Triveni Sangam. It has been suggested that around 1000 BCE the Yamuna breached and permanently drained the Sarwasati, the most important water course of the Swati Valley civilisation and early Vedic Civilisation the desertification of their homeland would have compelled the Saraswati migration to the other parts of Bharat Khanda. According to the Sahyadrikhanda of the Skanda Purana, ninety-six Brahmin families belonging to ten gotras migrated to Goa from western India, along with Parashurama.[2][22] Linguistic evidence for such a migration of Saraswats to Konkan and Deccan is based on distribution of Indo-Aryan linguistic expansions, beginning before 500 BCE.[4][23].Alternative theory states they got name from the saraswat river.At the same time in the western India Parshuram decided to do a Yagna and needed the purest for land for the purpose. He walked southwards in India but did not find an appropriate place. Therefore, he climbed the Sahyadris. Prayed to Indra Dev and Varun Dev to pull his sea back. Parshuram said he will throw his axes as far as possible in the sea and where it lands the sea has to go back till the demarcation. The gods agreed and stepped back. Parshuram wanted to make this place the most beautiful place in the world. The place is now called KONKAN, the western coast of India, that stretches from Maharashtra, runs across Goa and Karnataka and ends at malabar[24].Now he wanted Brahmins to live in this place. But there weren’t any in south. He travels till Bramavartha region of Saraswati river where he finds a clan of Brahmins chanting mantras since they were in drought affected area,He invites them to live in Konkan as it is a flourished land and they were living in hostile conditions currently. They agreed and traveled with him to the west coast. This is how Saraswats first migrated from North to West in India. They settled in the Agrahars, a civilisation in west.Later in the future, they followed a Guru named Gowdapadacharya and thus they were named as Gowda Saraswat Brahmins or the G.S.Bs.[2][25] [26] Pondakar (talk) 12:10, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Origin and migration"? If not, do you want it above or below it? I ask for the benefit of whomever decides to undertake this request in the future. —Sirdog (talk) 00:18, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
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The Saraswat Brahmins believe themselves to be named after the mythical Saraswati river, which was thought to arise in the Himalayas and flow through the present day Punjab and Rajasthan region to the western sea near Dwaraka, in Gujarat. Saraswat brahmins are mentioned in the Ramayana, Mahabharata and Bhavishya Purana.[27].According to the Sahyadrikhanda of the Skanda Purana, ninety-six Brahmin families belonging to ten gotras migrated to Goa from western India, along with Parashurama.[2][28] Linguistic evidence for such a migration of Saraswats to Konkan and Deccan is based on distribution of Indo-Aryan linguistic expansions, beginning before 500 BCE.[4][29] Krishnan01 (talk) 13:21, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
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