November 30

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The result of the debate was Merge. Ral315 (talk) 05:12, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Blake & Dylan Tuomy-Wilhoit

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seems to be copy n pasted and is about relatively unknown child actors. --Phil 03:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Based on their lack of further acting, I support the merge as well. - Mgm|(talk) 09:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


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The result of the debate was consensus to merge. I merged it with Characters of Lost, as the main article seemed inappropriate. Johnleemk | Talk 12:04, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Faith Harrington

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This is a character from a book related to Lost. The book bears little connection to the series' main arcs, and this character does not appear in the series. It's essentially non-notable fanon. Since the character is not shown on the series or connected to an official website, it does not merit inclusion (via merge and redirect) on Characters of Lost. I think a delete is in order. Baryonyx 06:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Merge in a section in the tv show's article "Lost in other media" per discussion below. - Mgm|(talk) 09:23, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Comment: if merge is the result of this vote, there's a section similar to that on the Characters of Lost page, which is where this material should end up (though, as noted in my nomination, I believe it should be deleted instead of merged there). This material wouldn't go on the Lost (TV series) page. Baryonyx 00:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


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The result of the debate was no consensus. Johnleemk | Talk 11:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Broken Dolls

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These might not be big enough to warrant an article... --Wonderfool 17:08, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


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December 8

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The result of the debate was merge to MuggleNet. bainer (talk) 04:29, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Emerson Spartz

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Subject of article is webmaster of MuggleNet. Although MuggleNet is notable enough, the webmaster is not, particularly since all the information on the page is from the Mugglenet website. The article has numerous photographs that are copyrighted and whose use is questionable, at best. Jtmichcock 20:55, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


Please discount this anon vote. They have not provided a reason. - Mgm|(talk) 11:01, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


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The result of the debate was keep. howcheng [ t • c • w • e ] 19:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Water potential

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this was part of my coursework, and was put on here somehow (not by me!). In our coursework we have to source everything, but come up with our own definition of water potential. I came up with this, it was put on here (thus becoming something I should source - but I couldn't, as our own definitions had to be exactly that - our own and original). So if it is not deleted then it is possible I could have taken it off here, as there is no proof that it was me that was using that IP when it was put on (even thought it was). Gjay 19:06, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


Can someone tell me how this is not just a convoluted and confusing special case of chemical potential as applied to water? If so I suggest that the article state as much and refer to a discussion of chemical potential. If this is special notation in common (?!) use then that should also be stated. As far as I know there is nothing special in this formulation that applies only to water and not to arbitrary solvents/liquids. I suspect that this concept is obsolete and of merit for understanding older thermodynamic literature. However, if this is the case, it should be made clear. Certainly it seems odd that a "potential" should have dimensions of pressure. 67.85.203.239 01:33, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

how do I "speedy delete"?

Relisting this to generate more discussion. howcheng [ t • c • w • e ] 00:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

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December 10

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The result of the debate was redirected to properly finish the merge per policy, see links below. - Mgm|(talk) 00:41, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Decisionsupportsystem

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I have completed a merge of this page's remaining significant information over to the more-complete Decision support system article. I believe that this article is now redundant and can be deleted; it is an orphan and so does not even need a redirect. Steve Summit (talk) 03:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

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December 11

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The result of the debate was DELETE. Owen× ☎ 23:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Mass of Lightning

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Delete: Hoax and/or nonsense as pointed out in Talk:Mass of Lightning -- JimR 05:15, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

  1. Journal of Contemporary Art
  2. Journal of Contemporary Asia
  3. Journal of Clinical Anesthesia

None of which have anything to do with lightening or the correct field of science. - Mgm|(talk) 10:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was REDIRECT to Second Coming. Owen× ☎ 23:45, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Second advent

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Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. This is a "book in progress," so it should be an "article nonexistent." JHMM13 (T | C) 05:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS. Owen× ☎ 23:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Ketchup on hot dogs

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Unencyclopedic. Can never be more than an essay, and will always be NPOV challanged Ezeu 05:22, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. Wikipedia is not a propaganda or advocacy machine. --Ezeu 05:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia also has a civility requirment. Jtmichcock 05:10, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Sure it does.--Ezeu 05:21, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • You seem to be unclear on the multiple meanings of the word "discussion". Haikupoet 05:42, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was keep.  Grue  17:18, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

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This existence of this article goes explicitly againstofficial Wikipedia Policy: in particular, Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files. There is already a Wikipedia Commons page for this purpose. Wiccan Quagga 05:33, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Question: If the redirect is enacted should the orphaned Wikipedia images on the be deleted in the interest of saving space? --Wiccan Quagga 23:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Unsophisticated users of Wikipedia (who, I beleive, is who we should also keep in my mind as the primary audience for everything we do here) could be confused by following a link that takes them away from the English Wikipedia without warning.
  • Despite having seen many claims on Wikipedia that it is the purpose of Commons to host image galleries, I have never been able to find such a statement on Commons. In my understanding, Commons was created to allow the several Wikimedia projects to have access to the same images without having to reload them to each project. In order to assist that effort, images are sometimes organized into gallery pages, however that is merely ancillary to the main purpose. If any one is aware of where on Commons it says something to the effect of "this is the place within Wikimedia for image galleries used in support of other Wikimedia project articles", please point it out to me.
  • Commons is a multilingual project. As the project develops, more anad more pages will look like this one. Sending users of an English language encyclopedia to such a page a bad idea.
  • It creates an additional burden on editor interested in developing and protecting such content since it would require them to watch two projects, rather than one.
Please note that I am aware of the restriction at WP:NOT and disagree with it and believe that this policy should be changed. Please see Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Proposal_to_modify_WP:NOT_an_image_gallery. Dsmdgold 15:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep I've looked at this gallery and I've looked at the Commons page. The gallery article is superior. It has informative captions — in English — where the Commons page has ugly filenames. It's a beautiful, informative encyclopedic page. It's much more useful than the average "list of" article and I still vote to keep those. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 15:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
and other galleries that have been claimed to have encyclopediac value and which have not been taken to AfD:
--- Charles Stewart 15:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The dogged mantra of "if in doubt, do not delete" does not mean "if one editor disagrees with a policy no editor may apply it". You can say keep, but your doubt about the policy does not render others unable to be quite sure of it. -Splashtalk 16:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Policy is something there is consensus for - or at least 70% support. I don't think a rule prohibiting quality image galleries like this one would gain that kind of support if put to a poll. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 16:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I've quoted that phrase precisely three times in my 16 months here at WP: it's hardly a dogged mantra of mine. Following the links I provided, and following the discussion on the WP:NOT talk page will show that there is considerable uncertainty about both how to interpret this rule, and whether the rule is, as currently phrased, a good rule. If three people are sure that rule should be interpreted one way, and three quite sure it shoould be interpreated in another incompatible way, does that make it a clear-cut rule? --- Charles Stewart 16:22, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Exactly, from the welcome message on Commons Main Page:
The Wikimedia Commons is a project that provides a central repository for free images, music, sound & video clips and, possibly, texts and spoken texts, used in pages of any Wikimedia project
The key words are central repository. The use of the media contained in that repository should take place in the individual Wikimedia projects. OK, we arrange all the William-Adolphe Bouguereau images on commons with annotations to suit en.wikipedia. Great if you are French, German, Spanish, Italian, Korean, Japanese or any other non English speaker .... in short a recipe for anarchy and disaster. The use of the images must be the responsibility of each project separately. --Cactus.man ✍ 09:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was keep. howcheng [ t • c • w • e ] 18:27, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Airliners.net

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Vanity for a semi nnwebsite with little facts and more advertising to it --Reid A. 09:36, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Keep - The article maybe badly written, but the site itself is a popular place for planespotters to get / exchange pictures of aircraft, airports and the like. I'm not an airplane nut, but I've still heard of it and visit occasionally. Jamie 10:15, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Keep – A very popular site which deserves a mention here. News from within the aviation world often appears first there. Also the faked picture of a man on the WTC just before impact Tourist guy used a photo stolen from the Airliners.net database here Dave 14:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Comment-Really needs a better article for this entry then, as all that this one is, is advertising.71.3.123.8 21:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
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December 14

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The result of the debate was delete. - Mailer Diablo 13:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Shabnam Sharma

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Non-notable writer. 98 hits on Google, most of them referring to different people, Shabnam being a common name and Sharma being a common surname Gurubrahma 09:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

There is no source for the Mahadevi Varma award. The link that you provided talks of a local award and refers to the poetess as a local poet. For non-hindi Indian poets, a low google count may be ok, but definitely not for hindi ones (especially since here the "Shabnam Sharmas" returned in google hits are all different people). --Gurubrahma 15:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I fully agree with you. In order to continue here as an entry, her notability MUST be established beyond doubt. In case, it is not established, my comments may be taken as a vote for Delete. --Bhadani 15:07, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
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December 15

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The result of the debate was keep. Jaranda wat's sup 05:17, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

List of postcodes in the Australian Capital Territory

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Note: previously survived a then-VfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Postcodes: New South Wales on 25/09/2004.

I consider a list of postcodes to be of very dubious value on wikipedia given it is derived directly from freely available data from the Australia Post website. Unlike some other lists, this one adds nothing that isn't already available elsewhere in basically the same format. Garglebutt / (talk) 03:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

nitpicking perhaps, but it was not up to date at the time of your vote, I have updated it--A Y Arktos 21:07, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
We are not just setting a precedent here for australian postcodes, this would also apply to all the lists of US zip codes etc. PS. I think the ANU has been 0200 for as long as I can remember (at least 10 years) these things do not chnage on a weekly basis. --Martyman-(talk) 04:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  • I'm aware of heaps of these lists and I'm not about to target all of them as there would never be a consensus, however for this State as a start, I see no problem with testing the waters again. Having survived afd previously is a fairly weak substantiation for keeping them. Perhaps I should create a list of all the numbers between 1 and 100 because I'm sure people use those all the time. Garglebutt / (talk) 07:31, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Unlike numbers between 1 and 100, however, people are likely to need to consult a resource to find out postcodes. I and others do so on Wikipedia first. Ambi 08:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
It is probably sarcasm, but please don't create list for 1-100 -- remember WP:POINT novacatz 14:31, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Not sarcasm; just a light hearted jest. Garglebutt / (talk) 20:52, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
And let's not forget Lists of postal codes which lists postal codes outside the US for a substantial amount of countries. - Mgm|(talk) 12:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment You're tempting me to put up an AFD for for "Everything linked to from Lists of postal codes. The Literate Engineer 18:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
When one navigates to Australia Post's post code page, you can download the database. It comes with a disclaimer, firstly about copyright - and there have of course been copyright coases on telephone listings and the like but I am sure that lists of postcodes are not copyright so long as they are not generated by a cut and past. The second is the qualification about accuracy and a caveat about not relying on the list - to my mind something akin to buying a child for a toddler, marked clearly for two year olds with a warning not to be used by a child under three - if you can't rely on a list from Australia Post?!?
I have not searched the database for wrong codes, but have found missing ones (2914 for Harrison,Bonner and Forde ; according to the Harrison article, building in Harrison has commenced and thus people are quite possibly already there.) If we cannot and are not maintaing the list (and I did fix it), should we have it and similar lists? The ACT is small - I bet NSW and Vic have even more ommissions. I can't speak about overseas. In conclusion, at the very least such lists should be tagged as potentially not complete.--A Y Arktos 21:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Everything in this article was correct. Postcodes for already existing suburbs don't change. Making sure we add new suburbs when they are created (heck, Bonner and Forde don't even exist yet, but have been recently given postcodes anyway) is something we'll have to keep an eye out for, sure. However, that is easily enough done, and even with an omission or two in these very new cases, the list is still a reliable and useful resource for at least the vast majority of cases. Ambi 22:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I was not the nominator, however, in response to Turnstep's comments: The last debate was over a year ago and was not conclusive by the concensus standards that have now evolved. The previous debate's results were :The result of the debate was KEEP. (6 delete, 9 keep, 1 ambiguous) - a 60% keep vote, ignoring the ambiguouos vote.--A Y Arktos 01:43, 18 December 2005 (UTC)


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December 16

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AfDs for this article:
Myron Evans (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The result of the debate was no consensus. bainer (talk) 09:37, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Myron Evans

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Delete. Article appears to be original research, and subject of article is non-notable. Srleffler 03:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Qualifying this a bit: the article has been rewritten to focus on Evans' biography. It is no longer "original research", and it may well be the case that Evans is a notable crackpot. Those who read the article early in the afd process might want to take another look and see if it changes their vote.--Srleffler 04:44, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Comment. The link to the argument about Wikipedia not needing notability requirements makes the above essentially an argument for deleting this page. If even the page's supporters admit that the subject is not notable, the page is surely deletable under current policy.--Srleffler 06:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
At the time of my original vote, I was unaware that speedy deletion was mandated for articles not asserting the importance of an individual. I'm not happy with this policy, frankly, and I don't think it actually has consensus at this point (it only ever passed with 74% support, less than that required to make someone an admin), but I recognize that we can't very well allow individual editors to question policy because they don't think it has consensus (WP:IAR aside).
So let me change my reasoning in this case: Dr. Evans appears to have some hundreds of Google hits (some of the 1,150 appear to be talking about another Myron Evans but most seem to be referring hto the man in question), he has 59 Google Scholar hits. He is not, of course, profoundly notable, but he's certainly modestly notable at least. My vote remains keep. —Simetrical (talk) 07:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Would you like your hat served with tartar sauce or plain? --ScienceApologist 15:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Heh, my thoughts exactly. Note that User:Solmil is the original author of the disputed article, which is not, unfortunately, an attempted hoax.---CH 01:05, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Comment: I was using "scholarship" in the sense of "body of scholarly effort produced by an academic". In particular, I was referring to some of his books and papers. The article could stand a few edit sessions, there's no question about that, but I think a deletion might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. -Colin Kimbrell 00:21, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Colin, we might be getting off the track, but did you notice that your Google Scholar search includes papers from Evans own site which apparently have not been published? So evidently you must be cautious in using Google Scholar to verify claims in suspect WP articles: there is certainly no guarantee that what you turn up there is even referreed, much less appeared in a respectable research journal. (Even then, of course, as the Bogdanov affair shows, problems can arise.) Also, AFAIK there is no "Evans lemma in gtr" except in his mind, and I think I know the gtr literature pretty well. What are your standards for notability? Simply having published a scholarly book or some papers? I think we need to maintain a higher standard than that, while perhaps not setting the bar as high as Brittanica. Still, I don't think you've answered the question: I see evidence for the dirty bathwater, but where's the baby?---CH 00:57, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Comment: Some of those books and papers are self-published and/or self-referential, but others are legitimate (like this one, for example). The question is whether there are enough legitimate accomplishments remaining after a thorough sort to make Mr. Evans notable. I personally believe that there are, but of course you're free to differ. -Colin Kimbrell 19:32, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
In general, I'd like to see a higher standard of notability, but recognize that many do not agree. I can suggest a compromise solution for what to do with this article, although I hesitate to suggest it because I've had a bad experience in a similar context.
Question for all participants in this discussion: would you find it acceptable if some user were to rewrite the article to describe Evan's work in chemistry, which appears to be "mainstream" (it would be best if whoever does this were a chemist! or at least checks with a knowledgeable chemist), plus the Harrison Prize, followed by a brief WP:NPOV description of what I would call his "cranky" claims? It should be possible to briefly describe those claims in NPOV fashion, adding a dry disclaimer such as: this "theory" appears to be little known in physics, and is apparently regarded as cranky by those physicists who do know about it. (Whoever did this would probably want to omit the "scare quotes", but I can't bring myself to apply the word "theory" to these particular claims without qualification!) Keep the external links so that readers easily find both Evan's writings and critiques of his writings.
Assuming there is a consensus that this would be a reasonable compromise, someone could volunteer to make the changes. But probably only an admin should volunteer for this kind of content cleanup job!---CH 22:44, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Maybe. First, I would want to know if Evans is actually notable as a chemist. If not, he may still be a notable crackpot, but in that case the article would have to focus on his theories, his efforts to promote them, and the scientific community's view of his work. In other words, if he is notable, the article should focus on discussing whatever it is that makes him notable.
I don't see why you think it would be necessary or even helpful for an admin to do this. Admins are not that different from ordinary editors.--Srleffler 23:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with this comment. If he is notable - for whatever reason, including being a notable crackpot or controversial theorist - he deserves an article. The quality of the article is not really relevant; there is sufficent content and AfD is not cleanup. I simply don't see enough to convince me that he is notable. His tendency to self publish and self award actually works against him here, because it makes it difficult to separate out his actual accomplishments. The Harrison Memorial award seems to be significant, but it isn't clear to me that it is important enough by itself to justify an article. ManoaChild 20:53, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, that's why I suggested obtaining confirmation from a neutral chemist that Evans could reasonably be considered notable for his chemistry work. Again tending to want to set the notability bar higher than some, I doubt Evans should be notable purely as a crank, since the only references I could find to his "theory" were on crank websites, which I suspect are very little known except to the tiny tiny minority of freelunchers. However, I am searching for a compromise with Colin, so while I myself would not include a biography of Evans, including one emphasizing his mainstream(?) work at the expense of his obscure crackpottery still seems to me an acceptable compromise.---CH 12:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The problem with the re-write proposed by CH, is the amount of watching, reverting, RfCing, RFAring (and sobbing) which is needed to keep it this way. Look at our fine perpetuum mobiles at Adams Motor, Motionless Electrical Generator, or Testatika. The antigravity department at Hutchinson effect and Lifter. Theory department at Scalar field theory, Autodynamics, Hydrino theory, Electric Universe. O.K. most of them seem to be under control in the moment. But they are always a threat to Wikipedia's reputability [2].
Pjacobi 13:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
CH's suggestion sounds like a good idea to me. -Colin Kimbrell 21:55, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


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December 19

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The result of the debate was merge and redirect to Mathematical joke (makes more sense than redirecting to October 31). howcheng {chat} 20:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

OCT 31 = DEC 25

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Maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't see the encyclopedic significance of this. Pharos 12:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was keep. – Robert 04:17, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Alt.sex.stories

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Was tagged as speedy candidate with the reason: "Not Notable, promotionion of a singular website which contains large amounts of illegal material (eg alt.sex.stories.pedo)". As far as I can tell, Usenet newsgroups can be notable and containing large amounts of illegal material shouldn't be a reason not to have an article on it. We also have articles on other questionable material. Abstain. - Mgm|(talk) 12:40, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


  • Given that there's not a single delete vote, I think we can safely Speedy this. (Not counting the 'nominator', by which I mean the guy who put the speedy tag on, not Mgm.)--Last Malthusian 23:07, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


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December 21

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The result of the debate was speedy deleted as recreation of previously deleted content. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 22:48, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Americas Funniest Home Videos/Opening Credits (sic)

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Detailed descriptions of the various opening sequences of the television series America's Funniest Home Videos. Of interest to no one but intensely obsessive fans of the show. tregoweth 00:18, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

These types of articles should not be merged and cause concise articles to be obliterated. Let them have their own page with a link from the title "Trivia" and the hyphen explaining what type. 68.194.42.219 04:10, 21 December 2005 (UTC)TikiWike

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The result of the debate was KEEP. — JIP | Talk 14:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

William Rivers Pitt

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Apparently best-seller lists are compiled based on how much books are sold to bookstores by distributors, not how many actual customers bought a book. Personally, I really don't think they're reliable. - Mgm|(talk) 09:33, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was keep. Mindmatrix 15:45, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Grant Neufeld

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Non-notable, non-elected politician, vanity. Delete --File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 01:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Previous afd's at vote 1, vote 2, vote 3

Bad faith nomination. User:Spinboy nominated this article twice before one ending in "no consensus", the other in "keep". Nothing has changed since then and he presents no new arguments that would change the outcome. Furthermore, there is a policy discussion on this subject at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Legislative candidates on this topic of electoral candidates, past and present, where a new argument for deleting this article could emerge. The centralized discussion is not intended to be in this afd. --maclean25 05:05, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

  1. User:Spinboy attempts three times to delete Grant Neufeld [7], [8], [9]
  2. unsuccessful, User:Spinboy tags the article as ((Unencyclopedic)), ((OriginalResearch)), ((POV check)) but does not participate in the talk page is discussion on the tags (only User:GrantNeufeld does)
  3. User:Spinboy leaves Wikipedia on Oct 27.
  4. User:Spinboy comes back stating "Oh, I'm not staying. I'm still extremely pissed off. I just saw something that cried out for an afd nomination, and I couldn't do that without logging on. I seriously dislike the hypocracy around here, one of many reasons I left." (refering to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Matthew McLauchlin aka User:Montrealais)
  5. Several days after his return he posts this afd with the same rationale as the last vote "Non-notable, unencyclopedic, vainity. Delete. --Spinboy 23:55, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)"

He returned to put up an afd on User:Montrealais (and none of the other dozen-odd other Canadian legislative candidates). While back he couldn't resist kicking this article one more time. Do you understand how this is can be interpreted as malice? --maclean25 05:47, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

So, in case you genuinely don't understand, and not just playing dumb I've noticed that bad writers often try to shift the blame for the confusion, ambiguity, and mystery they cause by insulting their readers. But you wouldn't know about that, would you?
Do you understand how this is can be interpreted as malice? Sure -- if you start off assuming malice.
Quitting in disgust and coming back is proof of what? Well, that he got over it. If this is suspicious behaviour, I'll work up a (long) list for you of shady characters for you to watch, including User:Ta bu shi da yu
I like the reasoning, though: he's nominating this for deletion for a third fourth time because he has a vendetta. The proof he has a vendetta? The fact that he's nominating it for a third time. Why is he nominating it for a third fourth time? Because he has a vendetta. Rinse, lather, repeat.
And the fact that he nominated this and not others proves what, exactly? It's a slight variation of the bogus rationale offered by hundreds of voters in past AfDs: namely, the whine "if the Pokemon/one-horse town/trivial-in-my-opinion-subject article stays, so should mine": the appropriateness of this nomination has bugger all to do with other lack of nominations. If this (in your view) double standard upsets you, give me a list of other candidate articles, those running on the No-Hope Party ticket in the Riding of BFN that, gosh darn it, Spinboy should have nominated for deletion and I'll do the job myself: I've got some time to kill right and I can get right on it. Though be quick, I'm leaving in half-an-hour.
Maybe Spinboy has nominated this article for deletion because he thinks Neufeld doesn't rate an encyclopedia article? Yes, standards in an encyclopedia -- that's just crazy talk! As far as I'm concerned, if Mr. Neufeld wants free publicity for himself, he ought to check out MySpace or Geocities.
In case you genuinely don't understand what I wrote, let me know and I'll use smaller words. --Calton | Talk 07:33, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
No personal attacks, please. Ground Zero | t 16:33, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
  • I don't want to drag this on, I think we both made our points, but I just want to clarify something. I just realized where you got the circular "Rinse, lather, repeat" argument from. The five points above are not five individual arguments, that is, point 1 is not by itself a complete argument. They are a chronological list of events that ended in this afd, that is to say, one argument leading to the conclusion. --maclean25 11:31, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
  • From the intro: Wikipedia has gone through many prolonged disputes about the significance, factual accuracy and neutrality of such articles, including one about Jimmy Wales himself. Refraining from autobiographical editing is therefore important in maintaining Wikipedia's neutral stance and in avoiding the appearance of POV pushing. --Calton | Talk 00:31, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
So what is it with the Canadian election? Suddenly it seems every no-hoper-party candidate for every one-horse riding in Canada thinks they deserve an article on Wikipedia. --Calton | Talk 07:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was Keep. —BorgHunter (talk) 05:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Totse

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No notability established, seems to have constant bits of NN facts added by bored totse members. It does have a lot of google hits, but many of them are for the wikipedia article, and the number is inflated due to it being an internet website... -Greg Asche (talk) 03:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Previous AFD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Totse.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.163.43.67 (talk • contribs)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.226.131.100 (talk • contribs)
See the Alexa rating above. That seems to indicate they're not really in need to of search engine boosting. They already get visitors. - 82.172.14.108 11:55, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
This article is not solely informational due to its large collection of textfiles. It is informational for being a popular website and forum that is (for all intensive purposes) unique; for example, an article on your downtown Blockbuster might be not notable, but an article on the company Blockbuster which rents DVDs is notable. Totse is notable due to its popularity, uniqueness, and community. Zachary Murray 22:24, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was no consensus to delete. --Angr (t·c) 19:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

List of famous overweight people

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Listed for CSD under the reasoning, "defammatory", thus claiming CSD A6 as a personal attack. But then, it's true, they all do fit a certain mass-related criterion (they're pretty fat, and pretty famous), so we'll open it up for debate. Harro5 06:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Delete. 'Overweight' and 'famous' are too subjective when combined. If there were a criterion by mass or weight or BMI for 'overweight,' and 'famous' was the same as our 'notable,' then it could be debated or considered, but as it stands, there's just too much room for opinion. - CorbinSimpson 06:48, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Comment : we do have other lists of this type that are sourced, defined and maintained such as List of famous tall women, List of short actors or our list of Notable anorectics found at Anorexia nervosa. -- JJay 07:24, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Those lists are much more narrow. A "list of obese actors" could be manageable; even "list of people famous for their weight" could too - but a "famous overweight" list is too much. This list is like having a "list of tall people" and "list of short people" instead of the ones you posted. Flyboy Will 08:13, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
  • I think it can be managed. The definition could be refined. Maybe by sex like List of famous tall women. -- JJay 08:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
  • I'm really unsure about that; and also, honestly, how much worth is to this list? Who's going to look at it and go "oh wow, I had no idea Chris Farley was fat! you learn something every day!" A person's weight is immediatley apparent, and this kind of list would mostly be based on public perception, not fact. As such, what's its value, if all the contents are already in the public's mind? Finally, why the hell does this even matter? Save for a handful of comedians, these people's weight is of absolutely no consequence to their notability. Also, what do we do about people like, say, Kristie Allie? Flyboy Will 08:51, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Look, I'm not saying that I have all the answers, but while we know that Farley was fat without the list, isn't the same true for height, race and many other criteria listed at Wikipedia? Yet, editors find these lists very useful and appealing. From the intellectual standpoint, the list is achievable within wikipedia policy guidelines. Therefore, I can't vote against it. -- JJay 09:07, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
  • As for Jennifer Aniston, she has a BMI of 18.3. Her husband -- the hunky Brad Pitt -- has a BMI of 27.5. From "The girth of a nation" at Salon.com [13]. -- JJay 08:37, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was no consensus to delete. --Angr (t·c) 20:27, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

List of eponymous albums (songwise)

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nn listcruft. WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information. When is this madness going to end? Delete Zunaid 09:24, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Modify to maintain manageability. I'd suggest limiting criteria to eponymous albums that have reached a position in an album chart in a definitive recording trade magazine, like Billboard, Cashbox (now defunct) or New Musical Express. In the same vein, I'd recommend a similar Eponymous hit singles as this would be very manageable (if memory serves me correctly, there are only about a dozen fitting this category from Billboard's Hot 100 chart and a relative handful from NME). In both cases, the name of the act and the name of the recording must be identical. B.Wind 18:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was ambiguous.

The strict "vote count" argues for deletion but Mgm is correct in his assertion that we are required to preserve the attribution history of anything that contributes to an article. This is a requirement of GFDL. At least one edit to the Armenian Genocide article appears to me to have been made with material from this version. Of course, we can not be sure without interviewing every editor - a tactic which is not feasible given the number of anonymous editors to the article.

Comparing the two article histories, I strongly argue against a history-only merger as a way of preserving the attribution history. It would badly confuse the edit history. In this case, I must agree that this sub-page can not be deleted. That brings the "vote count" to 3 to 2 and fails to reach the necessary consensus for deletion. I am going to exercise my discretion, though, and close this discussion as a redirect back to the original article. Rossami (talk) 08:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Armenian Genocide/Working version

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Working version of heavily edited document. Has been nominated in April, but was a keep because sufficient time hadnt been elapsed to allow for a working version to mature (original discussion to be found here. This working version has seen little activity since. The original article on the Armenian Genocide has been edited extensively and no longer even resembles the working version. The Minister of War (Peace) 16:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

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December 23

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The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS. — JIP | Talk 06:13, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Warren Wald

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vanity page Asw32 01:23, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


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The result of the debate was delete. - Mailer Diablo 00:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

1st Street (Taylor, MI)

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See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of streets in Taylor, Michigan. Article doesn't tell anything about the road which cannot be gleaned from reading a map. Wikipedia is not a road map. Delete. - Mgm|(talk) 10:33, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Oooh, you were doing so well until the vote! Bugger, eh? fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 05:33, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was keep. - Mailer Diablo 00:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Chocolate pudding

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I realize that chocolate pudding is notable enough to warrant mention on Wikipedia, but this article is so brief as to be almost empty. Plus the author makes a claim and provides no reference for the claim. The statement "Currently, the top-selling brand of chocolate pudding is manufactured under the Jell-O® brand by the Kraft Foods Corporation." the author needs to date that statement, and provide a reference. So I suggest Delete and any relevant information can be combined into an article about puddings.TheRingess 04:45, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Keep the rewrite. Good job. - Mgm|(talk) 12:06, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
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December 27/28

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The result of the debate was Delete.--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| r 3 $ |-| t |-|) 05:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Voice of the Borg

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This doesn't deserve its own article. Perhaps a merge into Star Trek: First Contact. Delete, JHMM13 (T | C) 07:37, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


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January 1, 2006

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The result of the debate was no concensus --Ichiro 07:04, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Childlove movement Pedophilia advocacy

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moved to Pedophilia advocacy on the basis of consensus forming here. AfD template still directs here -- not trying to circumvent process. James James 10:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Delete or merge with pedophilia. Neologism. Euphemism for pedophilia coined by Lindsay Ashford. Google shows virtually all the hits for "childlove" are from dupes of the wikipedia article and from Lindsay Ashford's puellula.org website. The article is inherently POV, and largely written by Ashford (who is on wikipedia as User:Zanthalon). The title is non-neutral as it is a euphemism. Homey 19:30, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment: anonymous votes do not count. Log in to your user if you want to be counted. Clayboy 23:40, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
The above Strong Keep vote was by me, JCUK. I hereby reiterate it, and attach my name to it. Jcuk 18:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
"is what the movement is most commonly known as - not just within the movement but outside it " Really? I've never heard of non-pedophiles refer to this movement as "childlove". Please provide some mainstream citations. Homey 00:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Also per paroxysm's reasoning who cited external sources. It is also in line with the naming of NAMBLA it's the NAtional Men Boy Love Association. If pedophilia advocacy was at all used (and not a neologism) it would've been named NAMBPA (National Men Boy Pedophile Association). It is covered by outside sources, but gauging notability by google or Lexis Nexis hits makes no sense, when you know there's a lot of censorship going on about the subject. - Mgm|(talk) 11:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that makes it clear the suggested rename is the POV neologism here. - Mgm|(talk) 11:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
As a patron of the online boylove community for almost ten years now, I had never heard the term "childlove" until Wikipedia renamed its "boylove" article into "Childlove movement" (if I remember correctly). I remember it as a conjured-up term to merge articles on "boylove" and "girllove". I have since noticed "childlove" being used quite often, when wanting to denote the collective boy- and girllove communities (and I've also noted many in the boylove community shunning the term "childlove"). So either I was ignorant of the term before the Wikipedia rename, or Wikipedia itself has contributed significantly to the usage of the term. Clayboy 18:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
And does KCTV ever refer to the movement as the "childlove movement"?Homey 19:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I would like to add that there probably nees to be separate articles for those who want to support people who have medically defined pedophilia and those who advocate sex with children. --Gbleem 08:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
The mixing of issues and definitions is exactly why I don't want it merged with pedophilia. Pedophilia is a condition identified by a process that is standardized by a group people with fancy degrees while the childlove movement as described is more of a political/social movement.--Gbleem 22:48, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Keep. I will give an example: In democtatic contries one can find Nazi and Communsit parties. The reasons for they existance are many, including the right of political freedom and the fact that these parties are indicators of the general political state in a given country (i.e. if their popularity start going up, it means that the mainstream politicians do something wrong). A similar argument can be put in the present case. First, if there are peple paying attention to the childlove movement, it is an indicator that it has a political basis, regardless how small it can be. Second, if the arguments of the "movement" are weak, then it will be easy for everyone to refute them again and again. -User:Nllsq (moved from talk page. first edit)

Childlove movement was nominated for deletion on 2004-08-03. The result of the discussion was "no consensus" with a default result of "keep". For the prior discussion, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Childlove movement/2004-08-03.

There is another one that advocates sex between women and young girls. --Gbleem 08:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

There is also MARTIJN. I believe the women/girl organization you're referring to is Butterfly Kisses. // paroxysm (n) 19:26, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
If that's how you feel, you should get right on this article eh? I think that this article is about as non-point of veiw as if the Ex-Gay article was composed completely of information found through Ex-gay organizations. That article isn't, and that article is fine. I think a lot of people are confusing neutral point of view with being positive. Lotusduck 02:34, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Eh. To be considered a "child molesting bastard" you usually have to, you know, molest children. Not just advocate its legalization. Maybe you should read the article.
I would also encourage you to stay away from the article if you're going to let your emotions cloud up your neutrality. All POVs need to be presented, but without endorsement. // paroxysm (n) 02:38, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, I guess that means you, not being a decent Wikipedian as far as I can see, should probably avoid the article altogether, per your own advice. --DanielCD 02:40, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Who are you replying to..? // paroxysm (n) 02:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Sorry. I was talking to Mr. "I'm gonna get my fucking way or else" DTC up there. --DanielCD 03:50, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Per some of the above arguments, changing my vote from Jesus H. Christ to O... M... G!!!!
Carry on! Herostratus 06:23, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


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The result of the debate was Redirect. --Ichiro 04:31, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

King Of Pop

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My first AFD of 2006. Nonencyclopedic, totally POV ... really could have speedied this somehow but the author would learn better what should go on Wikipedia if I put it here. Daniel Case 07:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment. AT the moment MJ is the King of Pop. Should the need to disambiguate ever arise, the redirect could be easily undone. There could be another King of Rock and Roll, but it is unlikely that someone will ever get the title from Elvis. Movementarian 18:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was no consensus. —Cleared as filed. 03:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Casualties of the 2004 March 11 Madrid bombings

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Tragic, but being killed in this violent way does make the individuals notable. -- RHaworth 08:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

It's called the 9/11 memorial wiki. And since it is a wiki, its name is fine. It is not called Wikipedia to begin with. - Mgm|(talk) 13:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
That's not quite true. The url is sep11.wikipedia.org, and at the upper left corner it has the "Wikipedia the free encyclopedia" logo. Blackcats 20:23, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Looking at it, I'd say it is most definitely a part of Wikipedia. Qarnos 22:23, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
It's got nothing to do with 9/11 happening in America. It just happened to be a very well-known and larger terrorist attack. If we have a separate wiki for those victims (all 2000-3000 of them), I don't see why we should mention the victims of the Madrid bombings in Wikipedia. - Mgm|(talk) 22:12, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, thank you, principally if you had enough patience to read till here! Eynar Oxartum 03:36, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

This AfD is being relisted to generate a clearer consensus. Please add new discussion below this notice. Thanks! --Ichiro 08:46, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


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January 2, 2006

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The result of the debate was keep --Ichiro 02:43, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Ehud Segev

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"largely unsubstantiated or unverified content" (User:Tiksustoo). bumped from speedy. No vote. r3m0t talk 02:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was keep. JeremyA 03:01, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Michael Essany

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Autobiography. Subject is only 23 or 24, username is "messany" - identical to subject of article. Anabanana459 04:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

per disscussion below week keep  J\/\/estbrook   Talk  VSCA    15:30, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Notable actors and television personalities who have appeared in well-known films or television productions. Notability can be determined by:
    • Multiple features in popular culture publications such as Vogue, GQ, Elle, FHM or national newspapers
    • A large fan base, fan listing or "cult" following
    • An independent biography
    • Name recognition
    • Commercial endorsements
These elements should be discused in the article. I believe it is possible for this to be included. I also believe that this is an example of failing to discuss the issue on the appropriate talk page for the article. (one of the first steps for resolving a bad article) --CylePat 15:13, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


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The result of the debate was TRANSWIKI and DELETE. -Splashtalk 20:35, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Paper chromatography of amino acids

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Unsourced, not encyclopedic, unlikely to be expanded, not a likely search term, not required as a redirect. I reccomend delete. brenneman(t)(c) 04:45, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

This AfD nomination did not gather enough votes for consensus, relisting. — JIP | Talk 09:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

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January 3, 2006

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The result of the debate was REDIRECT to freemasonry since there's no consensus to delete, it has been merged and a redirect is the simplest means of GFDLing it. -Splashtalk 23:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

List of Masonic organizations

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January 4, 2006

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The result of the debate was KEEP, with a subst: into the article. -Splashtalk 23:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Note: this had in fact already been 'subst:'ed, so I've just redirected it. -Splashtalk 23:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Age of Empires III/Civilizations Chart

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Game guide - fancruft. Orphaned page, not really used. Werdna648T/C\@ 10:55, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

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January 10, 2006

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The result of the debate was DELETE, Babajobu 11:33, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

GWYF

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Delete non-notable group of kids Drdisque 00:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Austin 00:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC)SirAus Sorry, but I beleive it entirely depends on what one defines by non-notable. This group is one of the most widely known reenacting groups in Virginia. I'm new here, so I don't really understand the criteria for deletion or non-deletion. Is it because this group isn't known outside of the reenacting arena or what?


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January 11, 2006

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The result of the debate was keep. bainer (talk) 23:56, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

List of Japanese artists

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Nearly blank list that is devalued in comparison to its category. -Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 00:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment T.Anthony's actions on the List of Japanese artists page have made me reconsider my redirect suggestion. [20]-> [21] Attempts to influence the course of a AFD by retroactively editing looks bad in my opinion. The redirect, the AFD could have continued without a problem even with the redirect in place. To view the context on a redirected page you simply click at the top where it says "redirected from" then click on page history, nice and simple.
Lists of people are generally duplicative in nature, un-used lists are a misuse of database space. This list was created in october and was dead until the AFD. Which begs the question, Why this sudden interest in editing on this page now. -- SusanLarson (User Talk, New talk, Contribs) 13:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Retroactive editing? Isn't so-called retroactive editing a good thing? It tries to address issues brought up here. - Mgm|(talk) 14:00, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Isn't that part of the point of AfD? So that when articles come up for deletion, people improve them? Ofcourse it would be a good idea to leave a not on the AfD voting page when it's done. 132.205.45.110 22:02, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
This list was not in a category so I was essentially unaware of it until now. I am interested in expanding coverage of East Asian topics, moreso than African ones as East Asia is my interest, and if lists help that I'm positive for that. Granted I could simply create 20 or so articles based on bios I find, but this would eat up more time then I want at present.--T. Anthony 13:47, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I did not nominate this article for deletion. I stumbled across it via the recent changes. That being said I think it should be clear exactly how this matter should be looked at from. Until the article was nominated for deletion there was absolutely no interest in the it for the 4 months since it was created. The edits only occured because it was nominated for deletion. I suspect that the interest will go away rapidly once the AFD is completed.
The purpose of article for deletion is to decide on deletion or not. It is not something to warn people that an article may be deleted so they better rush off and throw some quickie edits on it. I see the actions after the AFD as an attempt to subvert/circumvent the AfD process. In the process this violates the principle that process is important
Before these edits the list contained exactly one name.[22] Subsquent edits should be ignored for the duration of the consideration of this deletion request. -- SusanLarson (User Talk, New talk, Contribs) 15:42, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Your view and actions were in many ways justified as the list was just one name and no interest before AfD. I think you're worried my changes cloud that and make you look somehow bad. My intent is not to make you look foolish. No one should believe your view was invalid. No one should believe it is invalid now. I'm sorry you think my efforts to improve this list are cheating, but I think this is a valid topic and once aware of it I did what I did. Further last ditch save efforts often fail and there is a chance this one still might.--T. Anthony 23:04, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
That's absurd. Editing during an AfD is allowed, and even encouraged, if it addresses some of the concerns brought up in the AfD. Why should we vote for a static snapshot of the page at a point in time? Would you truly vote to delete this article on principle if in its current form it warranted a keep vote from yourself? What would be the purpose of that? Turnstep 20:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
It's wrong of Durova to say this was invalid. As stood it wasn't a list, but possibly an ad for one guy. That said I'm a bit irritated on the rest. I do have a history on List of Chinese painters. Some of that won't show up because what I did was turn red names blue, but some should. Check the edits from October 1 to November 12 2005[23] at the Chinese painters list. Also check List of Japanese painters[24] for January 1, 2006.

comment CSD-A1 is short articles: Articles #1 "Very short articles providing little or no context (e.g., "He is a funny man that has created Factory and the Hacienda. And, by the way, his wife is great."). Limited content is not in itself a reason to delete if there is enough context to allow expansion. A search engine may help in determining context and allow for the article's expansion." One name lists would qualify under that section. As for no history I was primarily speaking of T. Anthony who initially stepped up proclaiming an active interest handling this article. At the time I posted that I did not know others had shown an interest in or stepped up to edit on that article. At this point I am flexible on keeping the article or not. I would suggest that a list should be more than a list and include actual text on the arts in Japan. New question is why can this not be added to the Japanese Art article? -- SusanLarson (User Talk, New talk, Contribs) 00:19, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm more flexible on lists then you might think. If this information could be merged to the article on Japanese art without losing any information that could be okay. I'm not for that in some cases as it ends ups distracting from the article, but it's worth thinking about. Likewise merging List of Japanese painters, with the proviso of putting the new names in the format used here, I think should be considered. Have I even voted on this?--T. Anthony 01:12, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
On second thought the Japanese art article is already fairly long. However this could be made a link at the bottom of it acting as a kind of addendum of sorts.(And I'm going to put a merge notice on the painters list)--T. Anthony 01:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


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The result of the debate was keep. bainer (talk) 00:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

List of Norwegian photographers

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Unnecessary list, and it only has one bluelink anyway. Category:Norwegian photographers is perfectly satisfactory as a repository. Stifle 00:49, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Leifern has created seven new supporting articles overnight. Pretty nearly all lists look like categories in their infancy. Let's give this a fair opportunity and support a productive editor. Durova 06:08, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


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The result of the debate was delete. Johnleemk | Talk 14:45, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Energy_is_a_unifying_concept

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Delete. Original Research. Eugman 00:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge and delete is not a valid choice. To make the merge compliant with the GFDL the edit history of the article would need to be retained either by a history merge, or more easily by redirecting. - Mgm|(talk) 12:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


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The result of the debate was merge and redirect. Redirects are cheap, and we need to retain the page history. Johnleemk | Talk 14:54, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Landscape (disambiguation)

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There were two Landscape disambiguation pages, Landscape and Landscape (disambiguation). With the creation of Landscape art (which was Landscape painting), making Landscaping into a disambiguation page, and redirecting all the redirects, this page is now unnecessary. Sparkit 04:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


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January 12, 2006

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The result of the debate was delete. Mgm makes some good points for keeping, but many of the keep arguments have been refuted, and I find it persuasive that most of the users favouring a keep have changed their minds. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 03:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC).

Stacey Cochran

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Delete, Autobiographical vanity page Will 02:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Changing my vote to Delete due to this being a vanity page. He certainly seems to know how to spread his name around, but has done nothing notable in my book. Madman 05:57, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
And while not enough to make someone notable in itself, I think being a finalist for an Isaac Asimov Award makes it a more than average author. - Mgm|(talk) 12:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Also wrote reviews for Plots with guns (major ezine). - Mgm|(talk) 12:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Alexa rank 3,694,914.--Samuel J. Howard 12:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I can't help it that Alexa users aren't reading magazines. - 131.211.210.17 08:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
If he's self-published with a PoD publisher, which do show up on Amazon, does it really count as "published?" -Will 04:56, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. He hasn't won any of those awards, and he's only sort of a published author: it's a vanity press[26] (yes, I know notable work can be published this way, but publishing this way does not make one notable--Samuel J. Howard 12:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
No it's a POD printer. Vanity presses cheat you out of loads of money before printing, Lulu doesn't. Besides, publishing with "a vanity press" doesn't automatically make your book non-notable either. -- Mgm|(talk) 12:18, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
either way, the point is the same it's an author mill and publication there says nothing about notability.--Samuel J. Howard 12:29, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
  • delete per Samuel J. Howard. Durova 14:33, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I agree with SJH. We are too lenient on these self-authored vanity projects when a vague case for notability can be made. If the subject is notable, let someone else recreate a less noxious entry later on, but in the interim kill this. Eusebeus 14:38, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - Isaac Asimov award makes him notable. Fight bias against SF writers on Wikipedia! Cyde Weys votetalk 15:18, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
    • He did not win the award, he was merely a finalist. Shoehorn 00:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I am a science fiction reader and I voted to delete. I would also delete any other self-published non-award-winning writer. Durova
    • He won an honorable mention for one story in 1998 in a contest for college undergrads. [27] That hardly makes him notable. -Will 05:06, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
      • I won four awards in graduate school and was a finalist for others. That doesn't make me notable. Durova 08:23, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Changing vote to Neutral per comments on this page (especially the NaNoWriMo spamming). --Cyde Weys votetalk 23:52, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and cleanup, sufficiently notable. I see enough copies of his books on used sites to extrapolate a reasonable print run. -Colin Kimbrell 22:52, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and improve. (1) Notability - One can either believe the claim (made on the talk page) of having several times exceeded the limit of 5,000 copies sold, or ask for proof. I believe the claim as per Colin Kimbrell's and my own observations. (2) Autobiographical - this is discouraged but not forbidden. We always have WP:NOR, WP:CITE, etc. so anyone who does not believe what is stated in the article can ask for references from reputable sources. There is a reason why posting an autobiography is discouraged, but it is not impossible to do an acceptable job. And remember, it's just the start - like all editors, Stacey should be prepared for his edits to be mercilessly edited by others. AvB ÷ talk 00:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
    • You say it's "just a start". On the contrary, the record shows he had edited his autobiography of an article over 30 times starting back in September. He shows up on the History page as 12.214.7.234. Madman 06:11, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, if only because Stacey achieved minor notoriety in 2004 for spamming thousands of NaNoWriMo participants. In spite of his unremarkable writing, he is notable for his relentless self-promotion, which should be reflected in the article. Shoehorn 00:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Strong delete. Let's not encourage authors of dubious notability to spam their way to the pages of Wikipedia. It's my belief that any vanity pages should be speedy deletions. If you build it, they will come-- and if you truly are notable, surely a reader will create an NPOV page for you. Ipsenaut 16:53, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
He's relentlessly defending his notability on the article's Talk page, too. What happened with NaNoWriMo? -Will 04:46, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Stacey incurred the wrath of many NaNo users, but I don't recall any official administrative action. I've pasted his spam on the talk page. The best part of the story is his reply to one of his spam victims: "I was just trying to make friends, you jerk." Shoehorn 08:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Changing to Delete -- He continues to revert changes to the page which refer to his notorious spam episode. Since he is unwilling to acknowledge this episode, he doesn't even deserve this much notoriety. Shoehorn 09:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Strong Delete. Author is not published in the traditional sense; his books are available only via a print-on-demand publisher, and there is no verification that he meets the minimum audience standards for author notability. The Asimov award sounds notable, but it's given only to college students who have never published professionally. In fact, it's not clear that he's ever been published professionally -- his almost-prize-winning mystery novel seems to have been turned down by the publisher that sponsored the prize. (His magazine appearances seem to be mostly in semi-professional magazines.) There are thousands of local bands around the US that have bigger followings than this guy does, but they don't get articles. Monicasdude 05:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
It's okay to argue his notability on the number of books he sold, but not being published in a traditional sense doesn't make one non-notable by default. If I had enough info about them, I would write an article on the top 10 Lulu authors. - 131.211.210.17 08:39, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
No real disagreement; I was responding to the argument that being a "published" author was notable in and of itself. I don't think being "published" through Lulu is evidence of notability because anybody who wants to can be "published" through Lulu. Monicasdude 14:16, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I'd argue four things at this point.
1.) Cochran hasn't stated that his books have sold 5,000 copies per WP:BIO.
From the article's Talk page: "With regard to the validity of the article, Wikipedia is clear on this: Published authors, editors, and photographers who have written books with an audience of 5,000 or more or in periodicals with a circulation of 5,000 or more. I have met this criteria several times over the past fifteen years as a writer". We cannot vote away articles per WP:BIO if they pass one or more "inclusion criteria" (though other arguments can be brought forward to delete an article).  AvB ÷ talk 13:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
2.) small-magazines are for writers more like what journals are for academics (see: Wikipedia talk:Criteria for inclusion of biographies/Academics) than like the journals envisioned in WP:BIO
It's probably me, but I keep reading this as an argument for Keep voters :-O  AvB ÷ talk 13:31, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
If you look at the discussion of academics, it's suggested that publication in academic journals, and I think so-called small magazines are similar, is NOT evidence of notability, because of the publish or perish neccesity mutatis mutandis publishing in small magazines is important for "being a real writer" and getting the creative-writing equivalents of professorships (sometimes actually professorships). So more than just the publication in journals, the argument is that professors should be more than the average professor and not just published in a,b,c.--Samuel J. Howard 18:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, that explains it. We simply have somewhat different expectations of the outcome of the discussion of this proposed guideline. But I think your point will be difficult to defend as long as the guideline has not reached consensus and I'm also not sure it is consistent with the 5,000 cutoff point (WP:BIO). AvB ÷ talk 00:00, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
4.)The previous finalists who seem to have articles in wikipedia have other claims for notability Frank Wu's article says he won a Hugo award, Sean Williams is a New York Times Bestseller List author, Mary Turzillo won a Nebula Award, and Dave Wolverton's case is less clear, but it seems he's won and now judges the Writers of the Future award and his article alleges he holds a (minor) world record.
--Samuel J. Howard 06:47, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Wolverton's had novels published by Tor Books, a major mass market publisher. Clear-cut notability. Monicasdude 14:19, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree, that just wasn't clear to me from a quick examination of the article. Note that this would, IMO, militate against the notability of Cochran, since Wolverton's notability is established apart from this contest finalist status--Samuel J. Howard 18:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Some great edits have been made, but I think the case for notability is weaker than it was when this was first listed. We can't find a precedent for award finalists and he's self-published. This all came up after the original listing on AfD, and some of the original Keep votes were made under the assumption he won those awards and he was truly 'published.' If any are still paying attention to this, coming in and reevaluating might be helpful in getting this wrapped up. -Will 23:50, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I detect a pattern here: [28] He is anonymously editing himself spuriously into other articles where his own relevance is dubious at best. Cleaning up that mess now. Will 00:28, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Seen it too. He placed himself above Pulitzer winners on the list of alumni of his alma mater as an 'award-winning novelist' (we have established he hasn't actually won any awards). He has gone so far as to denigrate esteemed authors (e.g. Philip K. Dick) with completely unfounded comparisons to himself. Ipsenaut 00:37, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
  • He[29] is deleting the spam paragraph:

In November 2004, Cochran won the ire of writers worldwide when he sent private messages to thousands of NaNoWriMo participants, on the NaNoWriMo forum, pleading to place spurious reservations for his books at booksellers so he would be assured a sum of money per reservation. [30]

He produced a new justification for each time he reverted it. I'm not going to push myself over 3RR with this, but if he feels there's a problem, he needs to put up a factual accuracy boilerplate instead of deleting arbitrary paragraphs. Will 00:44, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep. At this point, I see nothing left in the entry that is questionable, and his short fiction publications meet the eligibility criteria regardless of whether or not his novels are self-published. I am a new user on Wikipedia and wondered how information was monitored. Now I know, and I'm glad to see that the article has been cleaned up. I believe he is notable, however, and the article should remain. --jlgssk 09:29, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I have reason to believe the above is a sock puppet account created by the estimable Mr. Cochran, or else someone affiliated with him. Is it typical for new users-- who coincedentally teach writing and research in a college-- to start off their Wikipedia careers with obscure AfD discussion pages, and make no other edits? Ipsenaut 16:01, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
jlgssk, see WP:AFD: "Unregistered and new users are welcome to contribute to the discussion, but their recommendations may be discounted, especially if they seem to be made in bad faith (for example, if they misrepresent their reasons)."  AvB ÷ talk 16:40, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately for me, I am actually a real user, not Mr. Cochran. I'm obviously not very good at this. I've followed this discussion for awhile (and the discussion on NaNoWriMo in Nov. 2004 because my students sometimes participate in it). The constant NaNoWriMo references seem to violate NPOV, and the article with the bare facts simply didn't seem inappropriate anymore. And AvB, thanks for the link. I'm learning the rules as quickly as I can, but there's a big learning curve. I'll keep my comments to a minimum. --Susan,jlgssk 17:35, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Something is rotten in the state of Wikipedia: All of jlgssk's contributions show up under 'recent contributions' for 12.214.7.234 [31], the IP address that Cochran has been using to edit himself into other articles, as well as create the Stacey Cochran article. (S?)he is lying; this user is not a separate one from Mr. Cochran. If an admin can sort this mess out, I would be much obliged. -Will 20:49, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
  • This is getting absurd. He changed his name in the above post from 'John G' to 'Susan.' [32] We all forget things occasionally, but I think this is adequate evidence of shenanigans. -Will 20:58, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Well spotted Will. Sock puppet hadn't signed in so got caught red-handed. Can be added to the article as another example of "harebrained schemes". jlgssk's Keep vote should be disregarded. AvB ÷ talk 23:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Susan's my wife. Her vote should be disregarded. You can't imagine how much trouble this has caused her and I today. Please delete the article. Stacey12.214.7.234 00:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I believe you and retract the "sock puppet" designation. Most other Wikipedians will, however, view Susan as your straw man now... Anyway, the AfD now has to run its course and outright deletion is not possible. But even Adam Curry's article isn't as harsh about his faux pas - it may well serve as the template for moderating the language about your perceived misdeeds later on, should the article be kept. AvB ÷ talk 11:40, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, seems notable enough, despite hairbrained schemes. --King of All the Franks 17:22, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Pure vanity: vanity article, vanity edits, and vanity publications. --Calton | Talk 07:56, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as non-notable vanity biography. Note that he never actually won any of the awards cited, he was only a finalist. All of his books are published by a 'vanity press' publisher. The subtext here is that he couldn't find a regular publisher to take him on. Atrian 04:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


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The result of the debate was merge and redirect. Johnleemk | Talk 12:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Goyle Sr.

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An incoherent vanity page?

  • comment it's a page about a character from the harry potter series. lord Voldemort is the main bad guy in the series. The question is whether characters from HP are notable.--Bachrach44 02:21, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge to Death Eater and possibly to Minor Dark wizards in Harry Potter. There is no reason to have this as a standalone article.-Mr Adequate 02:59, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to "Death Eater". No content to merge to "Minor Dark Wizards", and if more content comes to light, the redirect can be altered or undone completely at a later date. -- Saberwyn 05:01, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect to Death Eater. He's a deatheater first and formemost. Yes, Harry Potter characters can be notable, but there's extremely little to tell about this one, so he belongs in a list of minor characters of some sort. Like a list of Death eaters. Even the Harry Potter lexicon has no first name and just two lines of info on the guy. - Mgm|(talk) 12:28, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
  • fictional stubs should be Merged -- Astrokey44|talk 23:56, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


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February 2, 2006

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The result of the debate was redirect to G-man (slang). Mailer Diablo 00:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

G-Men(Slang)

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was on CSD, thought AFD would suit better-- -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 01:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete as neologism. Rory096 01:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep . This phrase has not been a neologism since the 1920s. There is enough intrinsic value in this term for it to not be a redirect. Just watch any gangster movie, like The Untouchables. If anything, this article should be tagged with expansion. Given time, this could develop into a decent article that isn't a stub. It should be moved, however, to G-Men or G-men (mob slang).Youngamerican 02:02, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Well-known term as shown by the 1930's film of the same name. Capitalistroadster 04:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to G-Man (or vice versa). Crypticfirefly 05:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to G-Man. Royboycrashfan 05:49, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to G-Man. Ikkyu2 05:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

*Redirect to G-men.  (aeropagitica)  06:37, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Redirect to G-man (slang) as per Mgm comments.  (aeropagitica)  15:54, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Rename to G-man (slang). This title needs to follow naming conventions. The redirect target suggested above is a disambiguation page which should refer to other pages, not include large sections of info. - Mgm|(talk) 11:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to G-Man. Very common term in the U.S. Raggaga 12:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to G-Man (slang) per Mgm. Royboycrashfan 16:36, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Slang. No useful content. JFW | T@lk 17:16, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, dicdef, already exists on Wiktionary. ←Hob 21:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to G-Man (Half-Life) cause it's all about the G-man. Or whatever the others wanted redirecting to if we're gonna be all serious. Cyde Weys 05:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


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February 3, 2006

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The result of the debate was Keep. Deathphoenix 14:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

List of illbient musicians

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Appears to be a list created just for the sake of having such a list, and/or of interest to very few people. In other words, it is listcruft. Stifle 11:54, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep. If we're going to delete this one then we'd have to delete every single list in List of musicians because this list is no more or less significant than the others. Feel free to raise this as a general discussion, but let's not just delete one randomly selected item out of many. GeorgeStepanek\talk 15:00, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Much better served by a category. This is hardly a "random selection", George, considering this list has about three items. (Though I do support transforming all the musician lists into categories. What better place to start?) StarryEyes 16:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, textbook category situation. Although I have to admit having to vote on this article taught me what 'illbient' meant. Thanks, article! Lord Bob 17:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, musicians (and everybody else) can be categorised using categories (its what they're for). Lists are not needed. ::Supergolden:: 17:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete and replace with category. Royboycrashfan 19:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Lists and Categories are both useful in different ways. Jcuk 22:07, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Lists are extremely useful because they indicate which musicians do and don't have articles yet (presuming they meet WP:NMG of course). Capitalistroadster 00:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. I've added a handful more. Some of them are redlinks, so they can't be part of the suggested category. Grutness...wha? 00:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge to Illbient which seems to be a pretty small article and maybe a list would give a better sense of what kind of music it means.--T. Anthony 04:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep , I guess. I've never heard of "illbient" music before but I guess it sounds like something I'd like. Cyde Weys 06:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Capitalistroadster. Lists and categories are NOT mutually exclusive and lists can contain info categories can't. - Mgm|(talk) 10:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge to Illbient as per T. Anthony. Several of the musicians listed don't really belong here anyway. —Wahoofive (talk) 17:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


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The result of the debate was keep. Johnleemk | Talk 15:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

List of schools in Thailand

[edit]

Apart from being redundant since categories already exist, this list will never be complete, and gives a false impression of noted Thai schools. Paul C 17:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep Not redundant as it contains a red link. Can be annotated. Can be organised differently from the category. Expand and make any comments you think are necessary for context. Merchbow 19:50, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Merchbow. Kusonaga 21:01, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as per above Jcuk 21:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of schools in China -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 03:01, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
    • That was speedy deleted for containing just one entry which has no bearing on this particular list. - Mgm|(talk) 10:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep categories do NOT make lists obsolete as lists can be organized in several ways while categories are always alphabetical. Lists can be annotated, categories can't. Lists and categories serve similar, but different functions. - Mgm|(talk) 10:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Mgm. Kappa 22:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. The China discussion (which I voted to delete) is of little relevance here. Silensor 22:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


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The result of the debate was keep. Johnleemk | Talk 15:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

-ase

[edit]

Is a dictionary definition Meandmyself 17:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment: Any argument that applies to -ase should apply equally to -ane, -ene, -oic acid, -ol, -one, -yl, and -yne. (See Category:Chemical nomenclature) --M@rēino 17:51, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and expand. Useful chemistry content. bikeable (talk) 18:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, or else we'll have to delete these. Bhumiya 19:10, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as per Bhumiya Jcuk 21:25, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, fatten up. BD2412 T 22:46, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and expand per precedent from the category cited by Mareino. I'm a layman, and -ase is the bio-chem suffix I know best, except maybe -ose. If not expanded to show how important this is in biochemistry, then maybe just make it a redirect to Enzyme, as it's a quite plausible search term. Is a leading hyphen considered inappropriate for an article-space title? I note that it was a working article link. Barno 00:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to their appropriate chemical articles. -ane to alkane, -ol to alcohol, etc. - Mgm|(talk) 10:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
    • E.g. if I redirect -ane to alkane, the information about what "-ane" means will be buried among a mass of other matter, since it is impossible to make a redirect go to a specific paragraph. Anthony Appleyard 07:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


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February 6, 2006

[edit]
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The result of the debate was keep, following re-write. BD2412 T 19:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

List of UML tools

[edit]

Delete Redundant to Category:UML tools; WP is not a list of links Karnesky 00:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment I have tried to clean up the list by slashing & burning non-notable links. I'm a little more happy with it--enough to withdraw my Delete vote. Not so happy to actually vote keep, though (I think it should just be a cat, but it is no longer the least maintained software list). --Karnesky 16:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per all above.Keep after removal of external links, per arguments below that the category and list would serve different purposes; i.e., the list would point to relevant articles that have yet to be created. --Kinu 00:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)); updated Kinu 18:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, Wikipedia is not a repository of links. Royboycrashfan 00:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC) Keep, but remove external links. Royboycrashfan 09:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

* Delete per nom. Avi 01:09, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Keep if linkspam can be removed. -- Avi 22:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete linkspam Ruby 01:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Ruby, the above can be parsed two different ways: 1) "Delete the article because it is linkspam", or 2) "Delete that portion of the article which is linkspam". I'm guessing you intended the first, but could you please clarify your intentions? -- RoySmith (talk) 22:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Keep If you delete this, the content will appear inside UML Tool. This also adds more information that the category as it allow for a brief description of the tool. It's also somethign that is useful. Mjchonoles 05:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete as linkspam.Blnguyen 05:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Keep. Blnguyen 23:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep but eliminate the external links. There's nothing wrong with list articles. Melchoir 08:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree, Keep but eliminate the external links. JIP | Talk 09:01, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, list has added explanation which cannot be included in a category. Lists and categories serve different purposes and therefore cannot make one another redundant. - Mgm|(talk) 09:36, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep. If you delete this, there will be a great pressure to create a separate article for every entry. If you delete this and this gets through, please consider deleting all articles in Category:Lists of software too (for example List of wiki software). As per the "link spam": If it helps to overturn the delete request, I would propose to remove the external links on those entries that do have an article. But please note that then that should be done on all articles in Category:Lists of software as well (please note that on several software articles there has been no consensus to do so in the past). Please also note that these kinds of lists previously resided in their respective article (For example I split off List of Petri net tools from Petri net. The question is, will this be moved to Petri net back then?). This here will be a precedent. So I would recommend to take due care on this. Thank you for your careful consideration. --Adrian Buehlmann 09:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Note There is sufficient debate not to have a "speedy" keep. I think that any notability should be prerequisite for list inclusion in lists such as this, so several stubs wouldn't be a bad outcome to this: they would provide an instant test over whether a product was useful or just more link spam. I have started cleaning up the lists that are in Category:Lists of software, including List of wiki software (partly by rming external links and non-notable products). But one list at a time! Some of the articles in the wiki list need to be stubbed. List of UML tools is my most controversial List AfD, but it also has:
    • one of the highest level of link spam
    • so many programs which are non-notable
    • very little effort to clean it up and keep it clean has been made (people have even thwarted past efforts to remove the external link cruft)
    • an unmaintainable (or at least unmaintained) breadth of focus (see discussion page on last question of AfD)
    • the category includes all of the programs in the list and some which aren't in the list
  • List of Petri net tools does need a clean-up, but people have been making efforts to do so. I haven't yet touched it. Again: One list at a time. There's no reason to move these lists back to the original articles. But that's not an excuse to keep poor lists. Categories should be used when they can provide enough information. Lists should be kept to the same standard as if they were kept in the original article. This list hasn't been kept to that standard; the link spam is just terrible.
--Karnesky 15:17, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
"one of the highest level of link spam" do you really talk about List of UML tools?? "an unmaintainable (or at least unmaintained) breadth of focus (see discussion page on last question of AfD)" there was nearly zero discussion about deleting List of UML tools. "very little effort to clean it up" - whoops?? how that. As you can see I have kept that list quite clean without much discourse among contributors. I'm really asking are you really talking about List of UML tools? Puzzled. --Adrian Buehlmann 15:57, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
By the way: I've had that List of UML tools on my radar (watchlist) since ever. But I'havent read anything about your concerns on the talk there. --Adrian Buehlmann 16:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
46 external links when only 17 articles are in wikipedia. Even rming external links for blue links, this is 29 external links & 17 internal ones. Since notability should be a criteria for inclusion in the list, a list shouldn't have more external links than internal ones. If you can clean up the list & it is useful beyond the category, I'll gladly change my vote. Right now it is more spam than not. --Karnesky 16:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. The elinks for softwares that have an article can be removed. No problem. What I see a problem is, with "non-notable". Who decides that? I can tell you: this is very slippery ground, especially for such a low edit traffic article as this is. If you remove a certain product, the contributor can be very upset if you have not a clear concept what goes on the list and what doesn't. They will quickly create articles. I don't think this is very helpful. --Adrian Buehlmann 16:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
The external links for blue linked software should go. At least some of the external links in the External links section should go. Notability should be dictated by Wikipedia:Notability_(software). This is one reason why I'm in favor of a cat, rather than a list: the notability of every tool (article) would be tested through an established procedure, rather than turning to a spam-filled list. If a tool doesn't warrant a stub article, it doesn't warrant inclusion in a list. Contributors should not be upset by any bold removal--they can create stubs or argue notability. Without this figure of merit, my vote will stay delete--the list would be uncomprehensive and unmaintainable. -- Karnesky 17:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
As you can imagine, I disagree with Wikipedia:Notability (software). BTW, it has only proposal status. --Adrian Buehlmann 19:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, not listcruft. --Terence Ong (恭喜发财) 10:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep The list is valuable. The cat doesn't really replace the list; even the redlinks (which wouldn't show up in the cat) have value, since they point out tools which don't (yet) have wikipedia articles. The list is a valuable resource for people looking for UML tools, let's not destroy that in some quest for wiki-purity. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I look a little time and started looking closer as some of the redlink entries. Take GNU Ferret, for example. Looking at the Ferret web site, there's really nothing that deserves an article of its own. It's a work in progress, and statistically, most projects at Ferret's level of development are doomed to wither and die. It certainly doesn't meet Wikipedia:Notability (software), for whatever that's worth. But, as one example in a list surveying the field, it certainly deserves a mention. I could write a GNU Ferret stub, which would certainly improve the blue/red ratio, but it would be making a wp:point for no good reason. As time goes on, some of the red links will turn blue, and new entries (of one color or another) will get added. I don't see anything bad about that -- RoySmith (talk) 23:13, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep but prune. I agree with Karnesky, external links for which there is a wikilink should go. But I think accusations of linkspam are going too far: a good faith effort to maintain a useful list—even if you think it's not a useful list—is not spam. —rodii 03:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as a list that is redundant to a category, an invitation to create a load more articles on nn software, and a list that is of interest to only a limited number of people, i.e. listcruft. Stifle 11:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Categories don't make lists redundant. With lists we can do things we cannot do with categories, like adding annotations or sorting non-alphabetically to name just a few. - Mgm|(talk) 12:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Lists and Categories absolutely do NOT make each other redundent, and who cares how many people its of interest to, I thought this was an encyclopaedia, not a popularity contest! Jcuk 12:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep per above --Siva1979Talk to me 15:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • keep great list Tim | meep in my general direction 23:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was keep. Mailer Diablo 02:58, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Richard Ashman

[edit]

Non-notable as written Avi 01:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete, non-notable. Royboycrashfan 01:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, he's an international cricket umpire - notable enough. QazPlm 01:09, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Ruby 01:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per QazPlm. Staffelde 01:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. International umpire and first-class cricketer see Cricinfo [33]. Capitalistroadster 02:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per QazPlm. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 02:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Test umpire who did 14 tests. Dr Debug (Talk) 02:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Really pushing the boundaries of notability here chaps... IMO Test Umpires are not inherently notable, unless e.g. seriously prolific to the point of record breaking (like 100+ tests) or famed for their character / personality. No problem with an article about Dickie Bird, for example... I don't envisage a significant, seriously informative expansion to this in the future so I'm going with delete. ++Deiz 03:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep — Per others. Dead 40 years and still listed on several cricket web sites. Notable enough for a non-paper encyclopedia.
    — Bill W. (Talk) (Contrib) [ 22:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC) ]
  • Keep. If he'd played 6 games for the Boston Braves, then become a baseball umpire this wouldn't be up for deletion. Monicasdude 04:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes it goddamn well would. Not all of us are monosyllabic Americans with beer helmets. Delete per nom. --Agamemnon2 06:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Perhaps there is nothing particularly special about this umpire, but he is a lot more notable than other sporting figures.Blnguyen 05:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. At the least, he was a professional (test-level) athlete in his sport. --Kinu 06:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, he played cricket (professional sportsman) and he was an umpire in several international test cricket matches (major sporting event) which is similar to being an umpire during Wimbledon for tennis or the Superbowl for our American friends. Certainly notable. - Mgm|(talk) 10:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep since I am prepared to extend the definition of competing in top-level sport per WP:BLP to include umpiring test matches, even if he hadn't had a prior career at the top level; I'm not completely convinced that playing for Orange Free State qualifies there. Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] 11:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep sports geeks worldwide need information like this RatherConfused 11:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep International cricket umpire. --kingboyk 21:03, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Our job is not to decide whether we think umpires are notable, but whether this particular umpire is considered notable by third-party sources. The answer would seem to be yes, so keep. Turnstep 15:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above comments. Seems to be notable enough for a comprehensive non-paper encyclopedia. - N (talk) 15:51, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, this international cricket umpire is worthy of note. Hall Monitor 18:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, I have added reference from Cricinfo.com. - Ganeshk (talk) 19:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Notable. --Siva1979Talk to me 15:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


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The result of the debate was no consensus. Mailer Diablo 05:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

List of accounting software

[edit]

Delete Redundant to Category:Accounting software Karnesky 01:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Comment: we also have a comparison of accounting software. (unsigned comment by JzG)
Redirect to comparison of accounting software. I've already merged the few unique programs from this list to the comparison. I don't see any reason to keep this list now!--Karnesky 21:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Royboycrashfan 01:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC) Change to keep per Nelson Ricardo's comment. Royboycrashfan 01:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Categories are inadequate. They cannot hold red links for future articles, for example. If the aerticle is voted for deletion, then the deleter must ensure the list is copied back to the main accounting software article. --Nelson Ricardo 01:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually, they can; include the red links in the commentary section of the category page. It just is not common. As for me, delete - Skysmith 12:18, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Note There are no red links in this list. Furthermore, I've added the appropriate cat tag to all articles in the list. If, in the future, people want to request articles on accounting software, there are already mechanisms to do this without using this list. -- Karnesky 01:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Tricky, page has been around a while with plenty of activity but Wikipedia articles are not just lists of links, internal or external (WP:NOT 1.5.2). On that basis this is delete as (re: Karnesky) the info can and should be found elsewhere. ++Deiz 02:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete — Rather than having a red link in an obscure list, it would be better to simply create a stub article on any program to be added to the category and let it be fleshed out later. Stubs are much more encyclopedic than red links.
    — Bill W. (Talk) (Contrib) [ 22:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC) ]
  • Delete since that's what categories are here for. -- 9cds(talk) 03:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as above.Blnguyen 05:03, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. As long as we're citing wp:not, "Mere collections of internal links, except for disambiguation pages when an article title is ambiguous, and for structured lists to assist with the organisation of articles." This list article has structure not reflected in the corresponding category. There is no policy or consensus against having a list and a category with the same scope. I don't understand the reasoning on this AfD at all.Melchoir 08:19, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Note. I agree that lists can be fine. I made no complaints about lists of links in the AfD. However, the only "stucture" this list lends is in licensing. So why not create two subcats to the main category accounting software? The reason for this AfD is that the cats are more maintainable than this list & the list, itself, adds very little (licensing). --Karnesky 08:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
    • It would be harmful to sub-split a category with only 34 articles. This list page is the only way to have all the items on one page, yet still sorted. Okay, so it currently sucks. It could use further breakdown by purpose, or maybe a short description of every item. It can be improved. Melchoir 08:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
      • Why would it be harmful? I actually think having a cat of Free accounting software would be useful, as it could be cross-listed under the Free software cat. -- Karnesky 08:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
        • Because there would no longer be a single place where you could see all the items. One of the purposes of a category is to guide the reader between its articles. Splitting it would make it less efficient. Melchoir 08:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete The reason categories exist... ComputerJoe 08:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, this is a harmless list article. JIP | Talk 09:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. (changed vote, see below) Categories don't make lists obsolete. Lists allow for organization which differs from alphabetical order and annotation which categories can't. Needs some explanatory info added, but otherwise okay list. - Mgm|(talk) 10:03, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
In that case, merge and redirect to comparison of accounting software. - Mgm|(talk) 12:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as written, redundant per category, will change to keep if some encyclopaedic information is added (e.g. modules available, whether it's tax accounting or small business book-keeping or whatever) Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] 11:17, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Yes, lists add information categories cannot. In this case, I do not think that a list is necessary. Lord Bob 18:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Ouuplas 03:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, a list which provides information the category cannot, together with the category, is more beneficial than the category alone. --bainer (talk) 08:16, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Feel free to create one, then - this list does not contain anythign a category can't. I'd change my vote if it did (and by that I do not mean redlinks). - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] 11:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as redundant to category. I do not see what information that a category doesn't provide. If you want to make the division between free and proprietary, use subcategories. There is no information on this page that couldn't be put on a category page. Stifle 11:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Lists and categories are complementary, not competitive. Seems like a useful, verifiable list with a well-defined criteria. Turnstep 15:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, that's a good point - the two lists are certainly competing, aren't they? Since one is a beefed-up version of the other, I'll switch to merge duplicated information (if any) and delete. Turnstep 12:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Good arguments on both sides. Currently, this list is more flexible than the comparison table, and (perhaps not a coincidence) there is now another red link on the page. However, the list is essentially duplicated by the comparison table. Suggest the comparison table article doubles as the list article. If necessary to have items which are not within the table, these can be in a separate section. Slowmover 17:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


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February 9, 2006

[edit]
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The result of the debate was keep this crap. Ifnord 21:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Crap

[edit]

There is already an entry on Wiktionary for crap. This article has been and remains marked as Move to Wiktionary. If it is already on Wiktionary than it should be deleted from here in favor of the Wiktionary entry. Further, I do not see that this article is anymore than an elaborate dictdef as was purported when the prod tag was removed. James084 01:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep. Although some may be offended by this article, wikipedias goal is to have an article an anything useful. i used this to see if my my girlfriend loved me (dont ask)
  • Keep. There is a section at the bottom that can be used as a dis-ambiguation page for the uses of the word. Georgia guy 01:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above. Royboycrashfan 01:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Reasonable article especially with dab aspects. Move to Wiktionary tag removed. Capitalistroadster 01:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete DicDef, not enough crap there for a full-up encyclopedia article Ruby 01:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, crap. (Sorry, I've always wanted to type that on AfD.) Change to disambiguation page, agreeing with Georgia guy. The rest is properly Wiktionary content, not Wikipedia. Barno 01:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete This dicdef is a piece of... garbage. And don't you dare insult Thomas Crapper!!! --M@thwiz2020 02:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Change bottom section of article to disambiguation page and delete the rest of crap. --FloNight 02:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Disambig or redirect to feces. Peyna 02:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge to feces. -Jetman123 02:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete or Disambig; its a dictionary def --Bletch 03:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete As per Flonight. Mike (T C) 04:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep it does not look just as a dictionary entry --Angelo 04:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Ardenn 04:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. This is more than a dicDef. Particularly the information dispelling the myth that it derives from Thomas Crapper. Paul August ☎ 04:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Disambiguation possibilities are stretching (since none of them are actually the word "crap". Fagstein 04:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep --Terence Ong (恭喜发财) 08:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep interesting article. I learnt something new today! Jcuk 09:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I meant keep, of course, per the very good Paul August. ENCEPHALON 10:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Paul August. Not all the useful information is in Wiktionary, nor should it be. The Etymology and myth dispelling is encyclopedic Mgm|(talk) 12:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep it's a common word and if deleted it will be recreated. Elfguy 14:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep per above ComputerJoe 14:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete this crap and have a disambig and link to wikt. instead. Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] 15:45, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, per above. Neither wiktionary nor disambiguation are appropriate if either mean the loss of information. Smerdis of Tlön 16:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. The article is an extended dictionary entry and WP:NOT and all that. Mikkerpikker ... 17:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep It is a very common word. If the article is deleted, it will likely be created again. --Siva1979Talk to me 17:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, per above. Ibn Abihi 18:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep this necessary crap. It is a very common word, likely to be recreated. Dustimagic *\o/* (talk/contribs) *\o/* 19:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • keep please this is not a dictionary definition really Yuckfoo 19:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • delete disambig page would get absurd....per nom not an encylopedic entryAnlace 22:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Disambig this should be nothing more than a page linking to other approprate pages... all other content is in Wiktionary... Nick Catalano (Talk) 23:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Topic is encyclopedic, and article is more than a dicdef. --Allen 00:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep based on the precedent of Shit. If etymological discussions of dirty words is encyclopedic as retention of the cited article indicates, then certainly crap should stay as well. Carlossuarez46 00:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. The discussion is encyclopedic, not lexicographic, in tone and scope. Ikkyu2 02:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep per Carlossuarez46. Forbsey 05:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Shamed keep - it is an encyclopedic topic too, and it can be expanded upon.--TheDoctor10 (talk|email) 14:05, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep there's encyclopedic information about the word too. Car salesman 14:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
  • delete per norm. 3H 05:13, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, this article is way more than a dicdef. Turnstep 01:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep according to precedents with articles like fuck and shit. If they can exist, "crap" certainly can. - furrykef (Talk at me) 06:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. Ifnord 21:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

King levitation

[edit]

At Ellusionist.com you have to BUY this. You have to PAY money to know the secret. Its terrible that people can search this site for the secret, while others pay their hard earned money. CrazedNakedFooll 01:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Weak keep It may not be that encyclopedic but I think it can be improved to be of encyclopedic quality. The nominee's reason is invalid, though. --M@thwiz2020 02:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep or merge. For those who are interested, there is a very extensive discussion of the pros and cons of publishing the "secrets" to magic tricks at Talk:Out of This World (card trick). This is a minor twist on the so-called Balducci levitation, and might be comfortably merged there. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I would not call this a "minor twist" on the Balducci. I can understand how a layperson comparing the two methods in a few minutes might be led to that conclusion. But consider creating your own levitation illusion from scratch. It took Corey King more than a year to develop this "minor twist."Verdad 01:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Reason invalid. But, if you come up with a better reason, I'll change my vote.--Muchosucko 02:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak delete or merge two sentences to Balducci levitation, advertisement for commercial website. Google search shows this is real, but I question its notability (separate from the intellectual-property issue). Frankly, if I paid a dollar (let alone $19.95 or more as the website offers) and someone taught me this supposed "magic trick", I'd ask for my money back and contact the Federal Trade Commission. Barno 02:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Generally only magicians think that this trick is worth paying that much for. This is partly why magic tricks are SOLD. Magicians normally feel that only people who respect magic as an art form should know magic secrets. People who do respect magic will pay for an effect, where as a layperson won't, thereby restricting the secret to someone who truly has use for it.Verdad 01:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Muchosucko. Royboycrashfan 02:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep This has been done to death. Kuru 02:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Redirect back to where it was pointing before. It's obviously NOT a secret, or it wouldn't be so widely published. Peyna 03:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
So should be publish all magic secrets, just because people can't keep their mouths should and share the secrets? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MacGyverMagic (talk • contribs)
WP should publish everything that is verifiable and encyclopedic. Peyna 13:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
It's not verifiable without buying the product. - Mgm|(talk) 22:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Many of the magic articles here on WP (including this one) seem to be used for the explicit purpose of exposing the secret of an effect. Exposing magic secrets is not encyclopedic. However, I believe that if the articles can be improved to reflect all aspects of the effect (author, effect, comparison, history, and method), it may justify keeping them.Verdad 01:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above. Ardenn 04:06, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak weak Delete I have to think that somehow this could come back to haunt us. Despite how basic the trick seems, it was some magicans hard work/"trade secret", and we're basically stealing it by posting it here. Mike (T C) 04:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Just to reiterate; something cannot be a "trade secret" if it is not a secret. This is not a secret, because it has been published. Peyna 04:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Harmless. --Aaron 04:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete- I don't care about the fact that money is being charged for this, I just don't feel that it's worth an article. Reyk 06:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, it's delete-worthy but not with that rationale. Try again. --Agamemnon2 07:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • If you think it should be deleted, vote delete. Other rationale has been presented by other contributors, and there is no reason to let a bad article survive due to a technicality. Reyk 07:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, second choice: merge as Balducci variation if kept, just because someone puts it up on the net doesn't mean it was legal to do so. Maybe it's not a "trade secret", but it's certainly someone's interlectual property. In Dutch, this would be called "inkomstenderving", an action that prevents someone from getting paid for their product which, as far as I know, is illegal. Besides, it's not as widely known as the Balducci levitation, the cups and balls or the floating lady. - Mgm|(talk) 12:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
IP rights are granted by the government in the forms of trade secret, patent and copyright (in the US, where Wikipedia is located and where ellusionist.com is located. Trade secret protection doesn't fly here, because it's not a secret. It hasn't been patented, so there's no rights there, and copyright only applies to a particular expression of an idea, which is not the case here. Wikipedia is under no threat of legal action for posting this page. Peyna 13:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as long as the secret is revealed, as it currently is, then it's worth keeping, and followed the "all information wants to be free" motto. Some people keep reverting it to try to hide the information and that shouldn't be allowed. Remember if we delete it we do these people a service since the secret will be lost. Elfguy 14:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't understand this reasoning. You're saying that this article only has value if the secret of the effect is revealed. This would suggest that nothing else related to the effect is important. Not the person who created the effect; not the facts of its development and history; not the place it is sold or the people who use it; and certainly nothing about how it fits into the history of magic levitations. Even if the page had all of that, if it didn't include the method it would be worthless? Verdad 01:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • keep. Good short article in the vein of our other magic articles. Knowing a secret is not hard work. Brighterorange 15:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep --Terence Ong (�?喜�?�财) 15:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as scoring only 98 unique googles, but BJAODN the nomination :-) Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] 15:47, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. The secrets of stage magicians, like the secrets of secret societies, are not anything Wikipedia should be censored to respect. Smerdis of Tlön 16:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Writing this article without respect for magicians makes the article biased (against magicians) and should not be allowed. I don't see any reason magic secrets should not be included on Wikipedia. However, I think there is a right way to give away secrets (with detailed information on other aspects of the effects), and a wrong way (with a brief introduction half the size of the explained secret).Verdad 01:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Wikipedia is not censored for magicians. Dr Debug (Talk) 17:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep --Siva1979Talk to me 17:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep What Agamemnon2 said --† Ðy§ep§ion † 19:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep This trick was revealed on one of those "Secrets of Magic" shows on TV at least 3 years ago. I've been freaking kids out with it for years. I've never actually heard it called by this name, but David Blane and others have been doing it for years. I applaud Ellusionist.com's sense of capitalism, charging for a trick that is freely available online. Maybe people paying for it should take the time to do a little more research. Wikipedia isn't in the business of keeping illusionists' secrets, so the article should stay.--Isotope23 19:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
A lot of companies make A LOT of money providing services to information which is freely available. Lexis Nexis and Westlaw have been very succesful at this. While we can't reprint their copyrighted contributions to that material, we certainly can publish all of the government works that are already public domain that they provide for a fee. It's the "other" services they offer that add the value (searching, ease of acces, support, indexing, etc). That said, I'm not sure what value Ellusionist.com adds to their products, other than neat packaging. Peyna 19:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Not quite, the product (variant trick) was there before people posted it to the net, so ellusionist isn't marking free information. The people posting it are ripping off a commericial product. - Mgm|(talk) 22:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
A ha! But, ideas are not copyrightable. Peyna 23:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Note that this effect was not exposed years ago. The illusion Isotope23 referred to is called the Balducci levitation, which has in fact been exposed for much longer than 3 years. I learned the secret when I was a child from a children's television program over a decade ago (really). The King levitation however was developed just in the last few years, and has not be widely used or exposed. Whereas you can say the Balducci has been popularized by magicians like Blaine, you can say nothing of the sort about this levitation, which hasn't been around long enough to be widely publicized to the layperson.Verdad 01:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Duly noted... Your latest rewrite makes clear the difference between Balducci and King's variant. Nice rewrite by the way.--Isotope23 21:45, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • 'keep please this is a important magic trick Yuckfoo 19:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep provided issues of verifiability are adequately resolved. The "money" issue is irrelevant; Amazon.com charges $4.95 for Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, while Project Gutenberg provides it free[34]. Encyclopedia Britannica charges money for information that can be obtained free in many places, notably Wikipedia. The local Blockbuster charges money for videos that can be checked out for free from our public library. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:30, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep There is certainly nothing secretive about this illusion. It's one of many ways to go about creating a levitation effect, and absolutely should included in the wikipedia. Stevemarks 00:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • All magic effects have an element of secrecy. They are not legally secrets, but they are known only by a limited number of people (mostly magicians). It is not a secret to any of you, simply because you all regularly read Wikipedia articles, and have read this article. Remember though that just because everyone in this community may know the secret to this effect doesn't mean that most people in the world know it. I doubt that even 1% of the population knows how this effect is done.Verdad 01:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep it seems notable and I agree with Peyna that the legal issue is phoney: want to know may square miles is Italy: buy an atlas for $20, subscribe to Britannica.com for whatever the price.... or...gosh, it's free on Wikipedia, and someone lost some money. Carlossuarez46 01:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as no valid reason for deletion provided. Stifle 09:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - it can be improved upon, probably.--TheDoctor10 (talk|email) 14:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I think I will take the initiative and improve it right know.Verdad 01:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - The article lacks references, and the trick described is not noteworthy in the least. Kleg 01:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Remember that just because you don't have a particular interest in the effect doesn't mean no-one else does.Verdad 01:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - "you have to pay money to learn this somewhere else". Well then, I guess you'd have to delete almost the entire Wikipedia database, because you have to pay to get the same info from Encyclopedia Britannica. Free information is the whole point of this place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.100.60 (talk • contribs)
  • Keep per DrDebug. Turnstep 01:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Keep Marskell 12:59, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Gauri Shankar

[edit]

Listed as non-notable person on CSD, but has article on chessbase and won national championships. Does need work though. Bringing it here, to see if I missed something. - Mgm|(talk) 13:18, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. Not notable enough at all. -Jetman123 14:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Keep. Alright, after thinking about it, he's notable enough. I change my vote to keep. But can anyone verify these facts? -Jetman123
  • I cleaned it up a bit, but I'm not sure about the subject's notability. No vote. ×Meegs 15:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. A preteen who cracks the top 2000 in standard chess rankings is notable, especially given the British championship titles. Monicasdude 20:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Notable enough. Avi 21:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - winner of US speedchess for K-12 in 2003-04. This indicates that at age 11 or 12, he was competing at the level of the highest 16-18 yr olds in US.Blnguyen 00:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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