Hi there, I've reworded that paragraph a bit. Is it any clearer? Tim Vickers (talk) 20:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
[1]. I actually think that your point was stronger with the other link as it was more on target. Read what the other link actually says. :) --GoRight (talk) 19:15, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Hey Baas. I'm impressed by your style of arguement and the tenacity with which you've approached the Atheism lede debate. I wonder though if at this point we're flogging a dead horse. I think we're working against three editors who are fairly committed to their position. I'm guessing the best we can hope for at this point is to insist the (clarify) tag remains, and hope that other editors who can see sense will weigh in on the subject. NickCT (talk) 16:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for your reply. I hope you don't mind that I've copied it into the Atheism talk page in context in order to ask people to clarify their positions a little more.
Thanks, Erxnmedia (talk) 16:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
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[2].
I have some hope that this message may start to be getting through. A year ago, it was impossible, even though there were, by that time, ten secondary source reviews published in mainstream publications. They were all being rejected because the authors were "fringe," purely, or, if they didn't know anything about the author, the journal was weak, didn't matter what their review board looked like. It would also be alleged that these were minor journals, but that was already falling apart. Sure, Naturwissenschaften hadn't published a review, but it was publishing papers that relied upon prior work published all over the place.
And there was a complete absence of negative reviews, and the publishers, by that time, included the American Chemical Society, Elsevier (I just realized that Kozima's book was published by Elsevier, this was mainstream academic publishing, in 2006), and more. I never used Kozima because it is very expensive and I couldn't get access to it.... But I did get the ACS LENR Sourcebook, which is full of reviews of the field. And, of course, Storms (2007) was published by World Scientific, no lightweight publisher. I found a brief very positive review published by Frontiers of Physics in China, published by Higher Education Press, which is one of the largest academic publishers in the world, and which is allied with and codistributed by Springer-Verlag. That we don't have an article on HEP is astonishing, in one way, and not surprising in another. It was all rejected as being of "low quality," while raw synthesis was routinely used in the article on the skeptical side, or very weak and old sources.
The recent review at Naturwissenschaften means a lot to me, personally. I was asked by Dr. Storms to review a previous paper he'd written, not knowing where he was going to submit it, it was on heat/helium specifically. I gave him my comments. Then he told me that he'd submitted to NW and that they had asked him to write a more comprehensive review of the field. So the editors were soliciting this, this isn't some submission that just managed to squeak past peer review. And he gave me a draft, and I again commented on it, and I can recognize some of my language in the final product. And he gave me credit. That may seem minor or silly, but this means that my name is mentioned in the same journal that Einstein published in. I've discussed CF extensively with Dr. Storms, of course, especially about Takahashi's TSC theory. Let me tell you, Dr. Storms is not about to accept some CF theory without very strong evidence, and he gives all the expected contrary arguments. The idea that "CFers" are naive fools just doesn't match what I've met. I've met Schwartz and Hagelstein now, and I was invited to visit McKubre -- Jed Rothwell wrote me that he was jealous about that, apparently McKubre doesn't extend this very often.
And, of course, I'm also now truly COI, because I put several thousand dollars into buying equipment and materials to make kits to replicate the SPAWAR work with neutrons. The untold story is that a Wikipedia editor, a scientist, gave and loaned me thousands of dollars to help with this. That editor stays away from CF, precisely because of the toxic atmosphere that existed there. And I wasn't the cause of that, as I think you know. So I very much appreciate your support.
We have to be very careful not to make this into a personality problem, we need to keep our eyes on the goal: an improved article, or probably set of articles, presenting all that is found in reliable source, with the science depending on peer-reviewed reliable secondary sources, and balanced according to the weight of publication. As you know, there are some who are not going to like that, we can probably predict! But they aren't really the problem, the real problem is inertia and sometimes flawed Wikipedia decision-making processes. --Abd (talk) 21:09, 23 September 2010
The arguments being made on this at Talk:Cold fusion have been considered in depth and rejected, most particularly at Talk:Martin Fleischmann. Absolutely, the links are not necessary. That's a red herring. Do they improve the utility of the article? Are there sufficient reasons to think of the site as hosting massive copyvio to justify some blanket exclusion? We have reliable source -- see the recent Storms paper on Naturwissenschaften, for example, that recommend lenr-canr.org as a place to find copies of conference papers -- which are generally not otherwise available. One of the links removed, I believe, was to a Fleischmann conference paper. It's Fleischmann's recollections of what he was looking for, and an earlier version was accepted, after extensive debate, at Martin Fleischmann, and a later version is cited currently in the article. There is no doubt but that this source is hosted with permission, the copyright would be with the author, in fact.
These are all phony arguments, you can tell because they raised them one after another, quickly. Take it out because of reason A. When that's countered, take it out because of reason B. When that is countered, there is reason C. And this has been going on for a long time, and every time it was considered in depth, with neutral editors participating, the decision came down to use the links. I'm not sure that will still happen, and I'm not about to try. It's not worth it. There isn't enough support to move the article toward neutrality, with the science being based on the gold standard, recent coverage in peer-reviewed secondary sources. They will claim UNDUE violation, if this is followed. What they don't realize is that there is no recent skeptical review of the field, under peer-review. One will have to go back almost twenty years for that! There are sixteen revew papers published under peer-review in mainstream journals, not counting JSE, which deliberately covers subjects considered neglected by the mainstrea. It's still peer-reviewed, which is why Britz included it, but I didn't count in in my survey on Wikiversity of Recent sources. 16 reviews on one side. None on the other side. And ... tell me again, which side is "fringe"?
They will claim that the recent source contradicts older source. That's synthesis, based on shallow understanding.
There is media source calling cold fusion fringe, and tertiary source, fairly recent, still, calling it pathological science, but a specific coverage of the "pathological science" and "cold fusion" connection was published under peer review in 2002, which is probably stronger than anything on the other side. Goodstein, cited as supposedly supporting the "pathological science" side, actually considers aspects of both the acceptance and rejection to be pathological -- which is the same with Bauer, the 2002 source. I covered this on Talk:Cold fusion, in the section SA collapsed.
I'm out of here, it's way too much work for too little result. Thanks for your efforts, but it's not been enough. --Abd (talk) 18:08, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
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From Fox News Channel page: sorry, i watched a few minutes of that video. in short, it's a crock of sh**. it's more egregiously fallacious and opinionated than the people here who want to misrepresent it and add their own synthesis and analysis that's directly contrary to the information contained in the report. and it is the worst example of blatent bias i've seen in nearly a decade. it is just downright disturbing, and i wish you hadn't shown me it. I'm kind of curious on what you considered so outlandish? Yes I agree, his reasoning is shaky (basing his argument on ad hominems, a single Harvard study, and CBO's fallibility) but he did raise one or two decent points. What makes this so bad? Soxwon (talk) 00:44, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Ah, I was about to leave a comment based on that very comment. I put the video up there. It's clear from what he said that he didn't watch a second of the video and said that comment in order, most likely, to discredit the video. Lee doesn't use ad hominems in the video. Where were they? And he didn't base his stuff on one study, he just used one study. The video was already more than 20 minutes long. PokeHomsar (talk) 00:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC)\
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Have you come across the work of George Lakoff? Based on this section of your user page, I suspect it may interest you. Might as well jump right into his Philoshophy In the Flesh: The Embodied Mind and Its Challenge to Western Thought even though it is one of those books that makes you feel good when you cease to smite yourself on the forehead with it. Careful, it is massive enough to bring on a superficial hematoma. They used to say the main tool of a linguist was a lot of shoe boxes, filled with index cards. I get the sense that he has plenty of that kind of thing available to back up what he says, which seems solidly empirical.
Really. just dropped by to say hi, and thanks for your continued efforts here. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 15:51, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Might be trouble brewing in there. In particular the Maryland study seems to become subject to gaming again.--Kmhkmh (talk) 05:03, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
Query to the scientific community:
To the Directors of Physics Departments,
LENR - Low Energy Nuclear Reaction and Widom Larson Theory, aka Condensed Matter Nuclear, historically misnamed "Cold Fusion"
Kevin, P>S>
Thank you for your time,
Gregory Goble --Gregory Goble (talk) 21:50, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, Just read the cold fusion section on your talk page. Made me a bit perturbed. Then I realized you had learned to accept Wiki dysfunction and your reflections on the impotant thing is that research in the labs and science still goes on, progress is being made. I remember my great Aunt, who till her death in the 90's would still argue that they had faked going to the moon. She would have loved to be a Wiki Editor on that subject. Luckily there are better encyclopedias than Wikipedia. Sadly Wikipedia is slowly making them go broke. Be well, be good, and thanks for the useful suggestions. I'll carry this tourch for awhile and pass it on when weary.--Gregory Goble (talk) 19:55, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
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