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Should they be linked from the Japanese clans page?
Ashina is a Turkish clan. But the interesting point is, this prooves a connection of Hsiungnu to Turks. Tengriteg
Given there is little to no evidence of the Ashina clan at all, no historical record of how the clan passed down through history and precisely nil that there was anyone associated with the Xiongnu who was in any way whatsoever in vaguely associated with the Turks or the Ashina, I do not see how. In fact given that this entire article looks a-historic Turkish myth-making, why does it even exist? Lao Wai 14:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
--173.70.154.203 (talk) 20:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
ANYWAY in case anyone wonders the Ashinas clan of Japan might be shoemakers? Their name means "keeping an eye on legs and feet." Or "observer of reeds." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:F00:AACF:B515:6FE0:58A6:AE6 (talk) 02:12, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
"These stories were at times pieced together to form a chronologically narrates of history. However the composite of such narrates are broad and the sequel could have been ended one way or the other, as most of the stories happens to be written in the same era without a date attached to it.[1] "
These sentences make no sense to me. I would be happy to help put them in comprehensible English if someone could tell me what they are trying to say. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
These stories as stated, had been pieced together to form a narrates of their history in a chronologically manner, so what's wrong with that. Please try harder for the comprehensible. Or otherwise I will put them in myself. Eiorgiomugini 18:22, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
"These stories were sometimes pieced together to form a chronologically narrative of early Ashina history. However the ultimate origin and chronological order of such narratives are uncertain, as most of the stories happens to be written in the same era without a date attached to it."
This parts is totally corrected, now I had no idea why did you removed the last part of it. If anythings, removing a sourced infomations from secondary matarial needed to be addressed here. Not simply undid my edits to prevert any revert wars. If it is not comprehensible English, probably you should added a tag over for a clean-up than removing my source. Eiorgiomugini 06:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Your parts "These stories were sometimes pieced together to form a chronologically narrative of early Ashina history. However the ultimate origin and chronological order of such narratives are unknown." simply do not stated what my source trying to said, first of all, they're not unknown to scholars. Eiorgiomugini 06:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
What is "Xue" in the "references" section? Could you be more specific? --Ghirla-трёп- 18:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Its a citation or foot note. Read WP:REF for specific. Eiorgiomugini 18:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
You should explain who is Xue - is it a book or a writer? If it is a book, when was it published? By whom? where? You can't persuade me that three enigmatic letters is a sufficient reference per se. --Ghirla-трёп- 18:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Its all written under the references section, please read also WP:HARV. To tell you the truth, I might simply choose to ignore or reply such comments. Eiorgiomugini 18:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
This is what I called trolling, obviously there's a reference section for book, location and publisher[3], but Ghirlandajo (talk · contribs) simpy do not bother to look over it and is rather frustrating to be repeatedly questioned by the distorted user here over again and again. I think the improvement of for this article is a pointless waste of time because of people like you Ghirlandajo. Eiorgiomugini 06:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a native speaker of English, and my language skills are limited. Perhaps it's the reason why I can't comprehend the phrase "These stories were at times pieced together to form a chronologically narrates of history, however the probability was large and such sequel could have been one way or the other, as most of the stories happens to be written in the same era without a date attached to it". I tried to comment it out, but another editor started to revert war and added another sentence that I can't parse. I seek your opinion, mediation, and/or advice how to proceed in this case. --Ghirla-трёп- 17:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
That's probably wise. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Briangotts"
Now User:Ghirlandajo, my behaviour is totally reasonable, if you felt frustrating, you could file a report whatever you wanted it, but overall at least I provided my source, unlike you that simply made an edit without a sources at the first point, so instead saying bads about me why don't you backoff on the insulting me and do something else, considering your block logare no better than anyone else here either. Eiorgiomugini 06:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Please do not removed the dispute resolution of we're discussing, if anythings discussion should have been moved here for more appropriated approach for both of us especially, that is what matters for you. Also about Gokturk-related articles, I don't even think those could be accepted as "revert", but anyone like you are welcome and might like to give it a try for that issue as well. Let's all filed this petty issue to a report for a abuse reverter like you, I don't care, I don't even think that I was at wrong in the first places. Eiorgiomugini 07:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone think the Asina/Ashina could be related to the Asii/Asiani who are called "the lords of the Tochari," thus explaining their Indo-European name and possibly giving them Tocharian ancestry? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.35.84.36 (talk) 20:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC) Nice discussion - missing here is scientific litarature - eg Peter Goldern and his latest article on the origins of the Turkut. As per Ashina and Gok/Kk names and name origin, Peter Golden and Rona-Tas, Hungarians and Europe in the Early Middle Ages, 1999 ascribe both words to Khotaknese Saka or Tocharian(Tarim basin) languages. Both words mean 'blue' - I will provide page number and cite later on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.43.88 (talk) 20:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
You would be well advised not to address your fellow editors with this type of profanity. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Please review WP:Style and other guidelines. Refs and notes are properly two different sections. Please also review WP:OWN and accept that you do not have any property interest over Ashina, Gokturks, or any other articles. Your behavior is going to result in you being blocked (yet again). Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 17:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Eiorgiomugini"
I don't think you had the right to claim I had WP:OWN over Gokturk and Ashina, anyone could check out Ghirlandajo (talk · contribs)'s edits, and would knows that most of his revert/edition and trolling did not addressed under the edit summary, which meant he simply removed informations whatever he wants it, a terribly possessive in my opinion. I agreed with the style, however since Ghirlandajo (talk · contribs) are the one who removed the References section[4], so I thought it might be better for you to rant on him, this had totally no concerns about my edits, I just happens to make a combined sections for compromise after his removal. About profanity, I don't recall I did mentioned your name on the edit summary nor the fellow editors here either, so that's just another self-soliloquizing from me.
And please refrain on yelling at others such as this one [5], reading the guideline of WP:OWN might help. You claimed you are willing to help in the comprehensible English for the article if I described on the talk, yet you made no reply ever since your first edit here [6], so I asked another guy to involve with the article somthings that you had failed to do. Eiorgiomugini 02:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I think we needs a specific quote about what Togan said on the Ashina, such WP:POV claim needed to be addressed properly (including the reasoning) as well. Eiorgiomugini 02:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Guess what, I had removed one of the sources from the article. This quote below was clearly utter rubbish:
They were the most powerful royal house of the steppes before the rise of the Borjigin.[1]
Tagan was talking about the three main dynasties (Ashina, Chinggisid and Ottoman) in the history of Turks under page 16, nothing implies that he stated about the Ashina being the most powerful clan prior to Borjigin, there don't even have a word of Borjigin mentioned by him to begin with. WP:OR may be the grounds for deletion, and before doing so please think twice about what you are doing, at least thinks for the others instead for your sake of selfness. Eiorgiomugini 07:35, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
However, in any case, a problem with the assertion is that it ignores the Yoglokars. --Nlu (talk) 07:25, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
While the fact that you're the one who are making the WP:OR, so you're not in the position to talk back on me. If you had claimed me to be distorting the facts, you should had provided a proof to back up. This had got nothing to do with synonyms, the source doesn't even mentioned something between "powerful" and "main". Replacing one epithet to another? Like what, it makes me wonder did you even read the source you provided earlier. Your accusations is not making any sense for your information, and yes I considered you're cheating with your source with all these nonesense that actually started up by you. "I know what I'm talking about" talk to others, but not me, I don't care what articles you had wrote about, as you're unable to attribute your additions to a sources is considered to be a WP:OR. Eiorgiomugini 07:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Another thing that actually wonder me is why do you even bother to add this "most powerful" statement on the first places. Since everyone likes to be part of something, I hope you do aware that all claims like this needed to be sourced as it simply brought doubtness to readers. Eiorgiomugini 07:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I had updated the additions from the article as it had violated against the WP:OR:
Sergei Klyashtorny, a Soviet Turkologist who was responsible for the coverage of the Gokturks in the Great Soviet Encyclopaedia, derives the name of the Ashina from the Iranian term for "deep blue" (this epithet was applied by the Persians to the Black Sea). This is consistent with the prevalent interpretation of the ethnonym "Göktürks" as "blue Turks", "heavenly Turks".
If Findley did said that, he would have mentioned under his sources, this article is currently in the dispute status, anymore nonsense without a source to back up would be removed. Eiorgiomugini 02:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Now, I had asked this guy named Ghirlandajo (talk · contribs) earlier up for a mediation, but he refused even though our disputes carried on. Is there other way could be done about this? I need several opinions from you guys. Eiorgiomugini 14:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Its been requested by this user on me, and its full of false accusations and so on. Is there any other suggestions? I really needs to get this mediation to work on with this user, it would be a great thanks if you you guys could asked him agreed to the mediation. Eiorgiomugini 14:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Any helps would be great if any of you guys could moved this guy to come over for a mediation, or otherwise I believe our dispute would still carried on. To Ghirlandajo, leaving aside Suyab, I believe there's more disputes over others articles in future, if you continued with your huge cut-and-paste reverting. Eiorgiomugini 14:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Its been requested before earlier, and I don't think it work pretty well, the disputes continued after that in several articles. Eiorgiomugini 14:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
From the article: The Ashina probably comes from one of the Iranian languages of central Asia and means "blue", kok in Turkic, the color identified with the east, so that Gokturk, another name for the Turk empire, meant the "Turks of the East".
In old turkish the color identified with the East is Yellow. The name of the Yellow Sea comes from Turkish. Blue is the color that identifies holyness and royalty as it is the color of the SkyGod. So, Gokturk does not mean "Turks of the East", it means "Royal Turks". I have to check my books for reference.
That's true - the sun rises in the east. "Descendants of the sky" or "Celestial born" are good translations as well as "Turquoise Turks".
Ashinas also means "Recognized" in Iranian. In Japanese it means "leg and foot observer". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:F00:AACF:B515:6FE0:58A6:AE6 (talk) 01:01, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
I hope I am not alone in seeing that the "Ashina Ancestry DNA" project is highly speculative. Aside from ignoring that the Ashina originally come from Xingjiang, it ignores genetic studies done on Xiongnu mummies and the Tarim Basin mummies, as well as ignores that the Ashina, much like the Saka, were not originally Xiongnu and adopted their culture post conquest/absorbtion. As a historian I find this project to be disconcerting in much the same way that the Davidic Dynasty project has no basis in historical fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.35.84.36 (talk) 14:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
As per my previous objections to this project I have removed the subject entirely. Not only was it poorly written, but to assume that the Ashina were haplogroup Q despite no evidence to support that in either Xiongnu or Tocharian/Tarim Basin grave sites is clearly the work of amateur historians merely intent on supporting a currently unsupportable view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.35.84.36 (talk) 22:36, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Also, Xiongnu split into two groups, North and South. Southern Xiongnu integrated with Chinese in Shaanxi province, and Northern migrated westward into Europe. No Turks split off from these two groups. The Gokturks who invaded China hundreds of years later were not the same, and only Turkish nationalists try to claim so (even saying Native Americans are Turks).
http://www.find-health-articles.com/rec_pub_16596591-population-origins-mongolia-genetic-structure-analysis-ancient-modern.htm http://www.find-health-articles.com/rec_pub_17905712-genetic-analyses-affinities-tuoba-xianbei-xiongnu-populations.htm --Xiaogoudelaohu (talk) 20:22, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
See the book below pages 142-143
Humanbyrace (talk) 22:09, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Ashina was turkic clan, they were mongoloids, look at head of Kul Tegin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kul_Tigin, he was from Ashina family Leave this pan-iranist nationalizm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.96.65.154 (talk) 12:02, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
I did my bit at trying to make this article readable because the topic is highly interesting and the author put so much effort in his job, so it was a pity the average reader would not be able to understand much.
I hope I did not misrepresent anything: if so please feel free to rectify and I will help with the language.Aldrasto11 (talk) 07:04, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
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In the beginning passage this source [7] is used. It's obviously a dubious one, with having Wikipedia articles as references, amongst others. I don't think such references inserted by blocked sockpuppet accounts should stay in the article, so I'll delete them. Regards Akocsg (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
@Wario-Man: No they are not, the alphabet used in the stele of the Göktürk Khagans is Old Turkic. Please see these two articles: Orkhon inscriptions and Old Turkic alphabet. The passage called "writing" is about that inscription/writing system. They have nothing to do with Sogdians. So I don't understand why correcting that mistake is POV and false? You should also have noticed that this passage is without any sources (for a reason) and poorly written, very likely by one of the sockpuppets of User:GoguryeoHistorian, who was blocked indefinitely. It's the other way around actually, some user simply made Sogdian ("Iranian") out of Old Turkic. So why do you keep reinstating that? And I would really like to see a source/proof for that alleged "Sogdian inscription" on a sword of an "ancient Turkic warrior". Same goes for the funeral rite. I highly doubt that they would anything have to do with Slavic ones. Seems pretty much made up by me. I'm not pushing POV, but correcting POV which was done way earlier in this article. Regards Akocsg (talk) 20:07, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
You haven't clarified anything, only keep accusing of POV pushing while I'm doing the opposite. And the fact that the Orkhon inscriptions of the Göktürks are Old Turkic, and not Sogdian is not POV or my personal opinion but a fact. Just read the article. The passage about the writing system doesn't contain any source. According to the source in that article, it was even the other way around. Here they are: [2][3][4]
References
ashina
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).((cite journal))
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(help)
@Akocsg and Kansas Bear: I removed that section (Sogdian writing system).[10] Seems it's a WP:OR. An nothing about Ashina and their writing system on Old Turkic alphabet, Orkhon inscriptions. --Wario-Man (talk) 08:45, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ashina clan which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:30, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
I know a ton about the Huns, but not enough about the early Turks to rewrite this page. But this entire thing has been corrupted by pseudo-history and nationalism. I recognize most of the "scholars" cited on here from sites like "TurkicWorld" and "HunnoBulgars.blogspot" like M. Zuev, etc. and their work is not accepted by mainstream, Western scholarship at all. MMFA (talk) 01:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
Kansas Bear is working on this article; a new and well-written revision. --Wario-Man (talk) 13:45, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Among these nomadic groups, the 'founding fathers' of the first khaganate of the Turks occupied a prominent position. This Turkic-speaking-elite, who formed the Ashina clan, initially acknowledged the superiority of the rulers of the Ruran empire of the northern borderlands of China, and settled with their people in the Altai mountain regions assigned to them by the Ruran. It was there that the clan federation of the Turkic-speaking groups, which assumed the name 'Turks' (Türk), first emerged.... Really, this is pretty explicit. Also, Orkhon inscriptions in Indo-European? Never heard this one, sounds quite fringe. Especially as the translation of them from Old Turkic by Danish scholars has been around for quite awhile and is publically available if you have JSTOR [11]. Whatever the "ethnic" language of the Ashina was originally, by the time they were important to history, they spoke Turkic, and we have no idea what was before then. --Calthinus (talk) 20:56, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
References
I have rewritten the article which had many errors including puttin two times origin section, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ashina_tribe&diff=prev&oldid=934644256 here is the rewritten version. Some sources were faked and used wrong. All those writers mention it about its etymological origin. I have removed some writers, because they were citing Klyashtorni as well. "This idea is seconded by the Hungarian researcher András Róna-Tas, who finds it plausible "that we are dealing with a royal family and clan of Saka origin" with "Rona-Tas 208" as source was not verifiable. Did try, but did find nothing. Also added language and religion, with more source. The language and religion should not be a dispute anymore. Took this from Peter B. Golden's book "Whatever language the Ashina may have spoken originally, they and those they ruled would all speak Turkic, in a variety of dialects, and create, in a broadly defined sense, a common culture." About the Wusun thing. It is completely fake that he said Ashina might descend from Wusun. Plus he says that Wusun's were Iranians, not Indo Aryan as it was mentioned here. Here is the full text: "The theme of the ‘wolf’ in two of the three Türk legends is shared with the Wu-sun, who preceded the Türk Empire by many centuries. Also shared with the Wu-sun is the theme of the mutilated child abandoned in the wilderness by the enemy. According to the Shih-chi, the Wu-sun ruler K’un-mo was cast out to die when still a baby, but was nourished by birds that brought him meat and by a wolf that suckled him. The story is also related in the Han shu and its close relationship with one of the Türk origin myths is obvious. There is, however, the significant difference that, whereas in the Wu-sun myth the wolf saves the ancestor of the tribe, it is not – as in the case of the Türks – the ancestor of the people. (The connections with Mongol myths, though undeniable, should not concern us here." and "Türk system of beliefs linking at least some sections of the Türk ruling class to the Sogdians and, beyond them, to the Wu-sun who – for all we know – may have been Iranians." Also there was a Russian source, where you can not verify anything, too much text and it is unsearchable even with translate. @Calthinus:, @Wario-Man:, @Kansas Bear:, thoughts?
Regarding the texts:
This is not true, this is what Klyashtorni says, from the used source: "The theme of the ‘wolf’ in two of the three Türk legends is shared with the Wu-sun, who preceded the Türk Empire by many centuries. Also shared with the Wu-sun is the theme of the mutilated child abandoned in the wilderness by the enemy. According to the Shih-chi, the Wu-sun ruler K’un-mo was cast out to die when still a baby, but was nourished by birds that brought him meat and by a wolf that suckled him. The story is also related in the Han shu and its close relationship with one of the Türk origin myths is obvious. There is, however, the significant difference that, whereas in the Wu-sun myth the wolf saves the ancestor of the tribe, it is not – as in the case of the Türks – the ancestor of the people. (The connections with Mongol myths, though undeniable, should not concern us here." and "Türk system of beliefs linking at least some sections of the Türk ruling class to the Sogdians and, beyond them, to the Wu-sun who – for all we know – may have been Iranians."
and
Let us check one by one:
I can not verify Rona Tas's content.
Conclusion, they are talking about the etymological origin as I have mentioned earlier.
It should be:
Beshogur (talk) 20:31, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
References
The orginal edit which was made back then im 2014, as you can see the name section was changed into origin. And the "arguments" section was later added on. The edit seem suspicious and translated from Russian wikipedia where the translated text says:
"Other researchers, such as H. V. Haussig [4] , A. N. Bernshtam [5] , Yu. A. Zuev [6] , D. G. Savinov [7] , S. P. Gushchin [8] , Rhone-Tash [9] , RN Frye [10] , Findlay [11] , VU Mahpirov [12] , we hypothesized about Sako - Usun (Sogdian) Ashin origin: in their view, the roots of the ethnonym "Ashin »Should be sought in Sako - Usun clan anthroponymy."
As you can see it is about the ethnonym and badly written orginal research. Can't believe this stayed here for five years. Beshogur (talk) 01:04, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
WP:DT states clearly:
Many editors consider use of any banner template in an article a serious measure of last resort, and would prefer other measures be exhausted before such detractions from the project be used. If one must be used, please make a thorough note listing deficiencies or items being disputed in bulleted or numbered paragraph format under a clear notice section heading on the article's talk page.
Given Beshogur's multiple subtractions and revisions from this article, dating back to late November,[1] his opportunity to use the dispute tags expired long ago. A proper procedure would have been to add the dispute tag in November, before he started censoring longstanding references and adding "citation needed" tags where they weren't necessary. After having attempted to independently re-write the article numerous times in the course of an hour; and his stated insistence at the Noticeboard that he "would not wait",[2] for other editors to review his deleterious contributions, there is no sensible purpose in allowing him to place factual dispute tags on articles, having already violated proper procedural conduct in numerous ways for a long time. His use of the tags here are a last-ditch effort to cast doubt on reliable and reviewed citations on this article and Gokturks, which is simply WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Hunan201p (talk) 21:00, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
preferably presented in a numbered list form on the article's talk page, in a section which includes the name of the template that was applied. The article currently reflects the status quo from before Beshogur's edits, and they have started a discussion on the talk page, so there's no reason to continue haranguing them for not following BRD at the outset. Finally, please focus on the content and not the editor. signed, Rosguill talk 23:05, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
References
This statement is false. There is nothing in Petr Charvat's 2010 reference that makes the claim that the Ashina have Turkic origins, much less that "many sources" suggest that they have Turkic origins. - Hunan201p (talk) 19:31, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
I don't possess any copy of Duan (1988), Xue (1992), Lung (2011) and I admit that my Chinese is very rusty. Yet I don't think Richard L. Davis (with all due respect to him) has accurately translated Ouyang Xiu. Ouyang Xiu apparently classified Tiele, Yantuo, and Ashina as three greatest Western Turkic tribes, not that Yantuo & Ashina were Tiele. This is the Chinese original:
My translation
The nomadic people who spread the Turkic language and the name "Türk" beyond the Mongolian steppes were the Kök Türks (Tujue 突厥 in Chinese), led by the Ashina clan. Importantly, Chinese histories do not describe them as descending from the Dingling or as belonging to the Tiele confederation.10 The Zhoushu (c. 630s ad), for instance, describes them as ‘a separate tribe of the Xiongnu (匈奴之別種)’ (Zhoushu 50.907) or ascribes their origin to the Suo state (suo guo 索國) located to the north of the Xiongnu (Zhoushu 50.908).
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One theory confirms the Mongolian ešin (aš) word for wife in Mongolian. And the final ending -as is a plural suffix. —22:59, 8 April 2022 (UTC)~
Muqan Qaghan, there is no a single source that says his eyes are blue. In fact the word "瑠璃" mean glaze and "琉璃" glass. Lapis Luzali in Chinese is "青金石"
Zhoushu, vol. 50 "狀貌多奇異,面廣尺餘,其色甚赤,眼若瑠璃。" Beishi vol. 99 "狀貌奇異,面廣尺餘,其色赤甚,眼若琉璃。"
Correct translation " Its appearance is very strange, its face is more than a foot wide, its color is very red, and its eyes are like glass."
According to Chinese scientist Xue Zongzheng, Ashina people looking like West Eurasian represents Sogdian and looking like a East Eurasian is Chinese. So he is claiming the ruling class of Gokturks were mostly Chinese. He is also said looking like "Sogdian " is not akin to looking like Turkic and that's because Qilibi Khan looked Sogdian and didn't look Turkic compared to other Gokturks rulers of the Ashina clan. That means Turkic people look like East Asian.
Turkic people were already mixture of East Eurasians and West Eurasians so it's natural they would look like all Gokturk rulers. Or are you telling me the Yenisei Kirghiz were also West Eurasian looking people aswell and later became East Asian by mixing with Chinese. Anthropology data already showed Yenisei Kirghiz were different from being racially western eurasian people. According to this Xue, the Gokturks rulers were East Asian looking Chinese rulers ruling a Turkic empire. East Asian looks were a Turkic thing to begin with.Ghizz Archus (talk) 19:31, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
They must have been in majority Europeoids although intermarriages with the Chinese had begun long ago. The Kök-Türk ķagan Mu-ķan was also depicted with blue eyes [...]
*Zhoushu* (50.909) describes the Turkic Qağan Muhan in the following terms: *His appearance is much unusual, for his face is a chi plus broad and is quite reddish, and his eyes look like colored glazes. Since then this kind of racial descriptions suspended in the biographical or ethnic accounts of Turkic rulers in Chinese sources
Some of the “Hu", including the Köktürk Qaghan Mu-kan and the Qirghïz Turks, were reported by the Chinese to have Europeoid features, such as aquiline noses, red hair and light-coloured eyes.
"According to Xue Zongzheng (1992:80), the emergence of less-Caucasoid features in the Turkic ruling class was probably due to the intermarriage with the Chinese imperial families from generation to generation. Consequently, up to the Qağan's eigth generation descendant, Ashina Simo, his racial features remained unchanged to the extent in which he was described as looking like a Hu (Sogdian) person, not akin to Turkic, and suspected to be not of Ashina genealogical strain, and henceforth was unfortunately not trusted for military commandership (JTS 194.5163). Xue Zongzheng argues that 'looking like a Hu person' was originally the intrinsic feature of the Ashina lineage, then became presented as a sign of impure blood as a result of the qualitative change occured in the hybrid physical features combining both Mongoloid and Caucasoid physical traits."
Probably as a result of the repeated marriages of the members of the Kök-Türk dynasty, and particularly Köl Tigin 164 had frankly Mongoloid features.
Please don't add original research to the article, only what the reliable sources say. - Hunan201p (talk) 20:57, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
You failed to provide any original Chinese quotes that claimed they were blue eyes. You have only one historian from the 80's interpreting his eyes being blue. There is no blue eyes description on the founders, first Ashina/Gokturk was Bumin.
Only the third leader of Gokturk Muqan Qaghan was described with light colored eyes, none of his brothers had that description.
From all you pretty quotes, only Esim (1980) claim he had blue eyes. Penglin Wang (2018) said "colored glazes", that doesn't mean blue Emmerick (1980) said "light colored eyes", that also does not mean blue.
Why wouldn't a Ashina person look like a Turkic western Eurasian, why must it be Sogdian ? What evidence is there for that. All Turks are formed from mixture of Western people and East Asians so all Turks can look East Asian and Western. Because all Turkic ethnicities and populations are biologically formed from East Eurasian and West Eurasian. It is very common and nothing unusual for Turkic parents or families to produce people who look very East Asian and those who look western, and intermediate.
"According to Xue Zongzheng (1992:80), the emergence of less-Caucasoid features in the Turkic ruling class was probably due to the intermarriage with the Chinese imperial families from generation to generation.
Probably yes or no ? This historian isn't very sure of himself or else why would he say "probably" . Basically the historian would have us thinking in last 2 centuries it was ruled by a predominant Chinese ruling class, even the Western Turkic Khaganate expansion to the west in Central Asia and East Europe, were done by a ruling class of Chinese genetically/physically. " So according to this "the people of the Jiankun state all have red hair and green eyes. The ones with dark eyes were descendants of [the Chinese general] Li Ling [who was captured by the Xiongnu]. The Kyrgyz khagans of the Yenisei Kyrgyz Khaganate claimed descent from the Chinese general Li Ling, grandson of the famous Han dynasty general Li Guang. " Are we to believe that the Jiankun state were a people who all have red hair and green eyes while their ruling khan of the Kyrgyz Khaganate was a dark hair Chinese-East Asian looking descendant of a Chinese male general ?
Let's not take a few historians words and their interpretations as real history. I suggest you make a more accurate information. Xue Zongzheng said "properly", meaning he is not even completely sure of himself. Even the reference you used from Esims mentions the word "probably" ( Probably as a result of the repeated marriages, the members of the Kök-Türk dynasty......looked Chinese/Mongoloid). Basically we won't remove the possibility they are correct but we must also make sure others don't think they are absolute correct. Ghizz Archus (talk) 19:06, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
The aforesaid Mukan died in 572 and Kül Tigin was born in 684. It is not known how many Chinese or Mongolian grannies the latter had. In the course of time, the Mongoloid appearance should have increased. Mukan belonged to the first generation of Kök Türks, who spread eastward to Central Mongolia from the Altay zone, and they were likely not mixed up much with the Easterners then.
It may be pointed out that exogamy practiced among the local people could have promoted intermarriage with any interested members of other tribes. Historical writers had attempted to describe the distinctive characteristics of the human physical out-looks. Their feelings toward human biological diversity are spontaneous and objective. This kind of description is to be read with sober reflections that racial concepts were changing from time to time.
The word "properly" is like a probability guess. Mongoloid features of Ashina tribe can also be "inherited" by our very own Turkic people with Mongoloid faces (there are so many Turkic ethnic group today as examples), not because Chinese or Mongolian. If they looked Mongoloid because of intermarriages with Chinese or Mongolian than the Ashina families from the 7th and 8th century would be fully aware they are unpure Turks themselves and wouldn't dare discriminate Simo (who also come from the Ashina bloodlines and ancestry). There no' actual evidence that early Ashina looked West Eurasian or East Eurasian. Early Turks were a mixture of both and so they could come out with both looks. No description on the first Qaghan Bumin, and Mukan was only described unusual appearance, having eyes like glass or blue which could still mean a East Asian looking Turk with blue eyes like Yakuts or Tuvans or a intermediate type. The only person that show there was evidence that a Gokturk Ashina leader did look West Eurasian or most likely a intermediate type was Qilibi Khan.
Physical Appearance. Jiu Tangshu described Ashina Simo as resembled Sogdians more than Göktürks. Simo's Sogdian-like appearance aroused suspicion towards him from Khagans Shibi and Chuluo and prevented Simo from becoming Shad.[7][8]
By intermediate, they can look in-between or slightly more East or West. You can't predict and describe how they exactly look. For example like these , first one looks mixed but more East Asian and second look roughly half. How dod we know the early Ashina or Asimo didn't look like these (especially the second one)
Don't call this original research. Unless there is absolute evidence that early Ashina looked like a "Hu" but even Chinese people from Qing dynasty described Uyghurs as looking like "Hu" people and Uyghurs are clearly mixed race.
In Turkey, you can find some Nogay Tatars and Uyghurs with similar looks in those pics. Even among Turks from Turkey, there are people born with mixed race appearance because Turkish people are also a mixture of East/West but a lower levels.
So Simo's so called Sogdian-like appearance could be just Turkic variation of West Eurasian. Shibi and Chuluo properly resembled Northeast Asian Turks. Regardless they would all fit a Turkic description. This Ashina incident was only one example, most other Ashina never had these experiences. Anyone with some knowledge of Central Asians know how diverse the physical spectrum of Turkic people can be. There's no need for the explanation of intermarriage with Sogdian, Chinese, Mongolian. I acknowledge there was intermarriage but I don't agree that their appearance being attributed to different ethnic groups. A Turkic leader can look East Eurasian or West Eurasian because Turkic blood is a mixture a both. These historians would be interpreting that the ruling class became Chinese/Mongolian people ruling over Turkic people.
Jagdish Gundara · 2012 " The many peoples belonging to the Turkic group often possess different physical features and the only common cultural feature is language.Ghizz Archus (talk) 23:06, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
References
Ghizz Archus, Hunan201p, it looks like you have been slowly edit warring around similar content since May of this year. I've reverted the changes reinserted today by Ghizz Archus, in line with WP:BRD, but have no personal opinion on the content dispute at issue here. Since it looks like you've already attempted to discuss this between yourselves in the section above and failed to reach consensus, I would recommend you proceed to either WP:3O or WP:DRN to sort this issue out. If those methods are unsuccessful, the next step would be an RFC. It should go without saying that further edit warring will be met with blocks. signed, Rosguill talk 18:37, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
Ghizz Archus (talk) 15:17, 13 August 2022 (UTC) |
I would like that someone help out because Hunan201p only wants to edit his Indo-European theories/references in Ashina and Turkic pages. Can this link [1] be used as a source on historical Kyrgyz people ? Ghizz Archus (talk) 15:17, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
<your response> Ghizz Archus (talk) 18:02, 19 August 2022 (UTC) |
I need a third opinion again. Please explain or tell me what is wrong. My contents on the article of Ashina tribe had been edited since the 2nd of June to the 3rd of August (2+ months) and with the help of many editors helping fixing all my links and references up to 4th of July. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ashina_tribe&diff=1096439797&oldid=1094279301. Recently this month I had been in a edit warring with @Hunan201p: who disagrees, and I'd request he provide the reasoning here for convenience and clarity. Hunan201p has not provided me with any answer since 28th of May. I really do not know if he disagrees with me everything or just part of. I replied and explained everything but Hunan201p refuses to engage in any more dispute and just revert to the version of the page he wants (in Ashina tribe article) do so and instead engage in edit warring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ashina_tribe#Correcting_some_mistakes I would like someone to tell me who is wrong.Ghizz Archus (talk) 18:02, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
I have several reasons for opposing Ghizz Archus's edits to the article[13][14]:
According to Chinese scientist Xue Zongzheng, the early members of the Ashina tribe had physical features that were quite different from those of East Asian people. These would include deep eye sockets, prominent noses, and light eye or hair color. However, over time, members of the Ashina tribe intermarried with Chinese nobility, which shifted their physical appearance to a more East Asian one.
Becomes this:
According to Chinese scientist Xue Zongzheng own opinion, the early members of the Ashina tribe properly had physical features that were quite different from those of East Asian people and were properly the result of intermarrying Chinese. Xue believes early Ashina's had physical features deep eye sockets, prominent noses, and light eye or hair color. However, over time, members of the Ashina tribe intermarried with Chinese nobility, which shifted their physical appearance to a more East Asian one. Xue claims that Hu (Sogdian) person, not akin to Turkic
This is a needless destruction of the original paragraph. It reads like a garbled radio transmission from an alien UFO. Nothing can be learned from this.
However the addition of the words "own opinion" ahead of Xue Zongzheng's name are definitely POV. The citation for Xue Zongzheng is a secondary source, from Penglin Wang, who is endorsing Xue Zongzheng's theory.
Also, Emel Esin, who is cited in this section, writes very similarly. On page 116, she reaches the very same conclusion as Xue Zongzheng, that members of the Ashina tribe developed a more East Asian appearance as a result of intermarrying with Chinese royalty. She also wrote on page 33:
"Zuev thinks that the name A-shi-na given by the Chinese to the Kök-Türk dynasty was derived from the Uysun, which he considers the authentic form of Wu-sun. Indeed the Chinese historians saw the descendents of the Wu-sun in the fair and blue eyed members of the Kök-Türk tribe. Some other scholars have considered the Wu-sun amongst the ancestors of the turcophone tribes.
This was written over a decade before Xue Zongzheng's paper was published. So this is a really straightforward view that completely unrelated people are forming. It's not like Xue Zongzheng is a lone scholar advocating an opinionated or fringe theory here. For Ghizz Archus to put "own opinion" in front of Xue Zongzheng is POV pushing.
And from Boris Zhikov[15], quoting Stoianov (2004):
The strong Iranian influence among the Turks of Ashina enables V. Stoianov to pose the question: "what if the Turk(yut)s represented a type of Turkicized Iranians, or what if they, being Turks in the present day meaning of the word, absorbed Iranian elements as well?"²⁷ This also prompts P.Golden to as quite possible that "religious and attendant concepts of royal ideology came to the Turkic peoples from from Iranian or even earlier Indo-Iranian contacts”.28 Or, put another way, “the allegedly mixed Saka-Altaic or possibly Wusun-Altaic origin of the Turks is reflected in their social structure, preserved terminology and even their appearance”.29
As if it needs repeating, from Osman Karatay (2022):[16]
The aforesaid Mukan died in 572 and Kül Tigin was born in 684. It is not known how many Chinese or Mongolian grannies the latter had. In the course of time, the Mongoloid appearance should have increased. Mukan belonged to the first generation of Kök Türks, who spread eastward to Central Mongolia from the Altay zone, and they were likely not mixed up much with the Easterners then.
It's the predominant view among scholars that the Old Türks had Iranian influence and physical appearances, and that this decreased over time due to intermarriages. It's not just Xue Zongzheng saying this. To put "his own opinion" in front of his name is just plain POV and original research.
Moving on, Ghizz Archus has strangely reverted incorrect content to the article.
This entry to the article:
Esin notes that the later depiction of an Ashina prince, the Bust of Kul Tigin, has an East Asian appearance.
Became this, after Ghizz Archus edited it:
Esin notes that the later depictions of Ashina princes,' such as the Bust of Kul Tigin, have an East Asian appearance.
So, what did Emel Esin actually say in the inline citation?
Probably as a result of the repeated marriages, the members of the Kök-Türk dynasty (pl. XLVII/a), and particularly Köl Tigin, had frankly Mongoloid features.
There's only one prince depiction mentioned there (Kul Tigin). What Ghizz Archus should have said is that other members of the dynasty were East Asian looking, not "princes".
Then there's this addition to the article:
However, according to 11th century Persian historian Gardizi, the Kyrgyz were mixed with "Saqlabs" (Slavs), which explains the incidences of red hair and white skin among the Kyrgyz and that they were partly of non-Turkic origin.
This is, again, faulty on multiple points.
The descent of the Qirghiz (Kyrgyz) of the Tien Shan Mountains region (Kyrgyzstan) from the Yenisei Qirghiz is debated among historians.48 However, among the modern Turkic peoples, the former have the highest percentage of R1a1 (over 60%). Since the West Eurasian physiognomy of the Yenisei Qirghiz recorded in the Xin Tangshu was in all likelihood a reflection of their Eurasian Indo-European marker R1a1a1b2 (R1a-Z93), one may conjecture that the Tien Shan Qirghiz (Kyrgyz) received their R1a1 marker from the Yenisei Qirghiz.49 That is, the former are descended from the latter.
Another paper, on pages 407-408 also points out that this admixture has nothing to do with Slavic groups:[18]
The second most common haplogroup in the total population was R1a1a (M17, M198 × M458) (27.9%).The highest frequency of R1a1a was observed in theMatur sample (43.5%); in Sagai of the Askizskii district it accounted for approximately one third of all Y chromosomes. In Kachins, this lineage was nearlyabsent. In South Siberia, in addition to the Khakass, this haplogroup is common in Southern Altaians and Teleuts; it was also reported in Siberian Tatars, Khanty, North Altaians, and Tuvinians. Analysis of the published data suggests that most R1a1a chromosomes of South Siberian ethnic groups belong to a single genetic corpus drastically different from the European in the assortment of microsatellite haplotypes [31]. The occurrence of this haplogroup in Siberia can be related to the Caucasian component. Supposedly, the appearance of R1a1a in South Siberian ethnic groups is associated with their ethnogenesis in the Bronze Age, when early Indo–Europeans were resettling to the East. It is known that the structure of Siberian and East European R1a1a haplotypes is completely different, and the presence of this haplogroup in aboriginal Siberian populations is not related to their recent miscegenation to Slavs [31]
So we have more authors in agreement that the West Eurasian component of South Siberians is due to early Indo Europeans migrating to Siberia, not due to Slavs (late Indo Europeans). No modern scholar is actually arguing that Slavic admixture made the Kirghiz look West Eurasian. They all belive that it was earlier Indo European groups who lived in Eurasia, and this is based on historical as well as genetic evidence.
And finally, I'll add an example of Ghizz Archus falsifying a source, in edit 1091151362
Not only is this not a reliable source (Bradt travel guide), it is another unnecessary addition of irrelevant, voluminous, off-topic original research from Ghizz Archus. The article is supposed to be about the Ashina tribe's appearance, not the Kirghiz. And why didn't Lee & Kuang, Emel Esin, or any other authors who described the Kyrgyz mention these "Mongol features"? In fact, all that is mentioned by Lee & Kuang was simple pigmentation traits, like on page 205[19], and these features are linked to Chinese admixture rather than Mongol. But for some reason Ghizz Archus wants to ignore anything Chinese in Turkic history.
So, this sums up most, but not all, of my observations. I may add another one or two later, but it pains me to do so, for the reader's sake. I have much empathy for the people who may be dragged in to this conflagration of text. - Hunan201p (talk) 11:55, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
Hunan201p, I have not removed anything from your sources but you removed everything I edited because you don't want a alternative view about about the physical appearance of the Ashina tribe. I find it strange that last time you removed everything I edited without explaning anything now you telling me you have problem with everything.
Kyrgyz You have no reason to remove these historically recorded facts. Your own opinion doesn't matter as what matters are evidences and facts. It is not a confirmed fact that Kyrgyz were west Eurasian, many other sources contradicts it. They were were most likely East and West mixtures and also they were partly of non-Turkic origin.
"Chinese sources from the Tang dynasty (608-906 AD) described these Kyrgyz tribes as being fair skinned, green eyes, red haired people, with a mixture of European and Mongol features.
Kyrgyzstan by Lauren Mitchelle
https://books.google.com/books?id=lKKLDwAAQBAJ&dq=mixture+of+European+and+Mongol+features&pg=PA12
" According to 11th century Persian historian Gardizi, the Kyrgyz were mixed with "Saqlabs" (Slavs), which explains the incidences of red hair and white skin among the Kyrgyz and that they were partly of non-Turkic origin. The T'ang shu chronicles remarks that the Ch'ien-Kun, the ancestors of the Yenisei Kyrgyz, were called Hsia-Ch'ia-ssu in Tang times and were also known as " mixed Ting Ling ".
Source: History of Civilizations of Central Asia
https://books.google.com/books?id=18eABeokpjEC&dq=Yenisei+kyrgyz+mongoloid+europoid&pg=PA198
The appearance of Ashina tribe
All your sources Xue Zongzheng and Boris Zhikov always suggest the word possible, meaning they are not absolutely sure they are 100% correct. Where's the evidence that that Ashina tribe represent Iranian type when they were possibly mixed race in appearance.
You certainly have no right to remove this. Even you don't dare deny Qilibi Khan's relative's [[Shibi Khan] and Chuluo Khan looked like East Asian or Northeast Asian Turk while Qilibi Khans were rejected for having a Sogdian physical appearance
In the Old Book of Tang records that Qilibi Khan Khan was forbidden from assuming the title of Shad, due to his Sogdian-like physical appearance. According to Zongzheng, having a physical appearance like a Sogdian was, by this time, being presented as a sign of mixed ancestry among the Ashina. Asimo was of the same royal Ashina clan as the khans of Tujue (Turks). However, despite's Asimo's lineage, Gokturks rulers Shibi Khan ( ruler of the Eastern Turkic Khaganate) and Chuluo Khan ( ruler of the Western Turkic Khaganate 新疆古尸 古代新疆居民及其文化 By 王炳华 · 2001, 210 page Accounts of the Turks. Vo.1. The old History of the Tang dynasty Tujue: " Simo was a member of the Jielie tribe Shibi (Eastern Turk Kaghan) and Chuluo (Western Turk Kaghan) " had doubts because his appearance was that of Sogdian (Hu) rather than Tujue (Turks).<ref.Suspected he was not a member of the Ashina clan (of Turks) because his appearance like a barbarian (Hu), not like a Turk's. Therefore, during the time of Chuluo and Jieli he was of course a middle level official, but never received military commission. The Ashina clans suspected him of being born out of an adulterous relationship, and therefore did not entrust him with great authorities.
Meaning you also had no reason to this
According to historians Joo-Yup Lee and Shuntu Kuang, Chinese official histories do not depict early Turkic peoples as "belonging to a single uniform entity called ‘Turks’."[2] However "Chinese histories also depict the Turkic-speaking peoples as typically possessing East/Inner Asian physiognomy, as well as occasionally having West Eurasian physiognomy"[2] and that "like Chinese historians, Muslim writers in general depict the ‘Turks’ as possessing East Asian physiognomy"
Also this
only Esim (1980) claim he had blue eyes. Penglin Wang (2018) said "colored glazes", that doesn't mean blue Emmerick (1980) said "light colored eyes"
Here some things I will suggest edit and there's no reason for you to remove it. There's no reason for you remove them
1) I will edit back Shibi Khan and Chuluo Khan looking the opposite of Qilibi Khan. There is no disagreement here as this is mainstream facts and even from your own very source shows it. 2) I will also edit back historians Joo-Yup Lee and Shuntu Kuang on their description of early Turks like in other Turkic pages, even you had you used those sources yourself.
As for... 3) As for the Kyrgyz, I will think about it later. There's really no reason for you to reject them as not credible because the origin of the the Yenesei Kyrgyz is not completely clear yet. I'm editing Kyrgyz based on historical facts from the old book of Tang and 11th century Persian historian Gardizi. A genetic theory claiming R1a and Ashina is related. Unless the bodies of the Yenesei Kyrgyz khagans had been dugged up and examined, everything remains only a speculation. It could also be haplogroup J2, R1b, I, J mtDNA H, W, J, I. I'm not removing the claim R1a and Ashina ruling class could be connected but this is obviously not proven Ghizz Archus (talk) 22:47, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
Hunan201p, I have not removed anything from your sources but you removed everything I edited because you don't want a alternative view about about the physical appearance of the Ashina tribe
Kyrgyz You have no reason to remove these historically recorded facts. Your own opinion doesn't matter as what matters are evidences and facts. It is not a confirmed fact that Kyrgyz were west Eurasian, many other sources contradicts it.
All your sources Xue Zongzheng and Boris Zhikov always suggest the word possible, meaning they are not absolutely sure they are 100% correct. Where's the evidence that that Ashina tribe represent Iranian type when they were possibly mixed race in appearance.
You certainly have no right to remove this. Even you don't dare deny Qilibi Khan's relative's Shibi Khan and Chuluo Khan looked like East Asian or Northeast Asian Turk
I will also edit back historians Joo-Yup Lee and Shuntu Kuang on their description of early Turks like in other Turkic pages, even you had you used those sources yourself.
As for the Kyrgyz, I will think about it later. There's really no reason for you to reject them as not credible because the origin of the the Yenesei Kyrgyz is not completely clear yet. I'm editing Kyrgyz based on historical facts from the old book of Tang and 11th century Persian historian Gardizi.
A genetic theory claiming R1a and Ashina is related. Unless the bodies of the Yenesei Kyrgyz khagans had been dugged up and examined, everything remains only a speculation. It could also be haplogroup J2, R1b, I, J mtDNA H, W, J, I. I'm not removing the claim R1a and Ashina ruling class could be connected but this is obviously not proven
My dispute is with you Hunan201p. A third opinion request is not needed if we have no problem, the fact that you do still have a problem makes me believe there is clearly a bias on how sources are used. This is not about failure to understand that different individuals have different perspectives.
I'm basically using the same sources you are using and they are the same contents. Point out the real problem don't accuse others of creating a POV "view"
1) You used Lee & Kuang (2017). If you can point out Ashina, or the Kök Türks , Qirghiz differed in appereance than why can't we make deeper explanation for differences
What I edit is about Kök Türks and Ashina. I'm not going to edit their genetics but how Chinese and muslim writers depicted Gokturks (Turkic people) explaining why people like Simo (Qilibi Khan) got refused from becoming a Shad.
2) You used Jiu Tangshu as sources. What is wrong with pointing out it was Khagans Shibi Khan and Chuluo Khan (rulers of the western and eastern Gokturks ) that prevented Qilibi Khan from becoming Shads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qilibi_Khan#Physical_Appearance Jiu Tangshu described Ashina Simo as resembled Sogdians more than Göktürks. Simo's Sogdian-like appearance aroused suspicion towards him from Khagans Shibi and Chuluo and prevented Simo from becoming Shad. txt: ‘思摩者, 頡利族人也. 始畢、處羅以其貌似胡人, 不類突厥, 疑非阿史那族類, 故歷處羅, 頡利世, 常為夾畢特勒, 終不得典兵為設’translated by and quoted in Lee & Kuang (2017) "A Comparative Analysis of Chinese Historical Sources and Y-DNA Studies with Regard to the Early and Medieval Turkic Peoples", Inner Asia 19. p. 201-202. note 13
Simo was a relative of Xieli. Because his face was like that of the ‘barbarian (huren 胡人)’ and not like that of the Tujue, Shibi [Khagan] and Chuluo [Khagan] were doubtful of his being one of the Ashina. Thus although he always held the title of Jiabi Teqin [夾畢特勤; ms. 夾畢特勒][a] during Chuluo and Xieli’s time, he could not become a shad (she 設) in command of the army till the end.
There should not be any disagreement.
Answering questions
I'll answer your questions but remember that you were blocked partly for misusing and throwing around Wikipedia rules. Every response you made is to prevent from editing absolutely anything you don't like or don't want to see.
Your the one who added Yenesei Khirghiz from genetics to their appearance. You also added Similarly, Turkish historian Emel Esin noted that the early members of the Ashina tribe, much like the Yenisei Kirghiz, had more Europeoid features. I have nothing against what you wrote, all I did was only added extra information, is isn't any huge paragraph. Just a short sentence. Is not even confirmed that that Yenisei Kyrgyz were Europoid or that hey had Europoid facial features than Mongoloid. Yet the way the Ashina tribe article is edited is to make people believe that they were Europoid looking who became East Asian looking by intermixing.
Since when did people Lee & Kuang (2017) represent the only facts and alternative facts. I used the Old Tang Book and 11th century Persian historian which is far more reliable when describing Yenisei Kirghiz appearance.
What's incorrect ?
Notice they said 'Possibly' or 'Probably'. Possibly means that it is possible something may or may not happen but it is not guaranteed. Probably. Means that something happening is more likely,
From Esin (1980)
From Xue (1992)
From Boris Zhikov quoting Stoianov (2004)
Now I'm going to use Boris Zhikov suggesting that the Ashina were mixed Saka-Altaic. Something you didn't state. I'm also going to add words like 'possibly' and 'probably'. These historians are not even sure what they exactly looked like or how they were formed.
I'm not making a massive paragraph. I'm only adding 1 and half sentence extra. How is that too much ? "Jiu Tangshu described Ashina Simo as resembled Sogdians more than Göktürks. Simo's Sogdian-like appearance aroused suspicion towards him from Khagans. Gokturks rulers Shibi Khan (611–619 AD) of Eastern Turkic Khaganate) and Chuluo Khan (619-621 AD) of Western Turkic Khaganate) both had doubt of and prevented Simo from becoming Shad.[66][67]" If you want I can make it shorter. Why do I need your approval for that?
So many wikipedian articles write way more paragraphs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Sicily#Norman_kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#Moors_of_Iberia
I failed to see a reason. I'm not making a huge paragraph and all I'm adding is two famous historical Gokturk Khans. Their names should at least be mentioned.
The book I used is a realiable source. User:Robert McClenon already answered. All I need to do is to fix the broken link.
"I am not answering the Third Opinion because I am not sure whether the dispute really is about content of the article, the book as a source, or something else. You may not use that link as a source, because it is broken, and requires that an editor issue a Clear command to view the page, and because it is not clear what that page has to do with the controversy. The book appears to be a reliable source. Remember that the key policy that reliable sources support is verifiability, so that a book has to say something that supports material in an article. It isn't clear to me whether the content of the book supports a content issue. I am closing the Third Opinion request as unanswered because not clearly asked. You may post another Third Opinion request, but be more specific. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:38, 17 August 2022 (UTC) "
https://books.google.com/books?id=lKKLDwAAQBAJ&dq=mixture+of+European+and+Mongol+features&pg=PA12
" According to 11th century Persian historian Gardizi, the Kyrgyz were mixed with "Saqlabs" (Slavs), which explains the incidences of red hair and white skin among the Kyrgyz and that they were partly of non-Turkic origin. The T'ang shu chronicles remarks that the Ch'ien-Kun, the ancestors of the Yenisei Kyrgyz, were called Hsia-Ch'ia-ssu in Tang times and were also known as " mixed Ting Ling ".
Why don't you make a Third opinion request because I'm sure you don't want to. Really, a third opinion request on everything you disagreeing with me, even on the simplest and smallest things. There's not a single thing that you agree with me. Ghizz Archus (talk) 20:26, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
I'm basically using the same sources you are using and they are the same contents
The book I used is a realiable source. User:Robert McClenon already answered. All I need to do is to fix the broken link.
I am not answering the Third Opinion because I am not sure whether the dispute really is about content of the article, the book as a source, or something else. You may not use that link as a source, because it is broken, and requires that an editor issue a Clear command to view the page, and because it is not clear what that page has to do with the controversy. The book appears to be a reliable source. Remember that the key policy that reliable sources support is verifiability, so that a book has to say something that supports material in an article. It isn't clear to me whether the content of the book supports a content issue. I am closing the Third Opinion request as unanswered because not clearly asked. You may post another Third Opinion request, but be more specific.
I failed to see a reason. I'm not making a huge paragraph and all I'm adding is two famous historical Gokturk Khans. Their names should at least be mentioned.
Now I'm going to use Boris Zhikov suggesting that the Ashina were mixed Saka-Altaic. Something you didn't state. I'm also going to add words like 'possibly' and 'probably'. These historians are not even sure what they exactly looked like or how they were formed.
Notice they said 'Possibly' or 'Probably'. Possibly means that it is possible something may or may not happen but it is not guaranteed. Probably. Means that something happening is more likely,
Your the one who added Yenesei Khirghiz from genetics to their appearance. You also added Similarly, Turkish historian Emel Esin noted that the early members of the Ashina tribe, much like the Yenisei Kirghiz, had more Europeoid features. I have nothing against what you wrote, all I did was only added extra information, is isn't any huge paragraph.
Since when did people Lee & Kuang (2017) represent the only facts and alternative facts. I used the Old Tang Book and 11th century Persian historian which is far more reliable when describing Yenisei Kirghiz appearance.
What I edit is about Kök Türks and Ashina. I'm not going to edit their genetics but how Chinese and muslim writers depicted Gokturks (Turkic people) explaining why people like Simo (Qilibi Khan) got refused from becoming a Shad. 2) You used Jiu Tangshu as sources. What is wrong with pointing out it was Khagans Shibi Khan and Chuluo Khan (rulers of the western and eastern Gokturks ) that prevented Qilibi Khan from becoming Shads.
User:Ghizz Archus, User:Hunan201p - Your exchange of posts is Too Long, didn't read. If you request a Third Opinion, it will have to be short enough so that the volunteer can understand what the question is. If you keep on posting at such length, you will be ignored (probably both of you). Robert McClenon (talk) 21:12, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon:, @Rosguill:. I feel very frustrated because I knew this outcome would happen. I really didn't want to write so much but how else would anyone understand the difficult situation I'm in, created by Hunan. I suggest reverting to my original version and let Hunan201p do the third opinion request. I could ask for several 3OR and still wouldn't sort our dispute because Hunan201p disagrees with me on everything He created a huge wall of questions and disagrees with in everything, leading me to make a huge wall of answers, making everything even more complicated. Hunan201p disagrees on even the smallest things, despite the fact I'm using the very same sources/authors that he himself is using. He now even tries to prevent me from editing a extra sentence from the same sources he uses by claiming everything is too long and unnecessary. There actually many wikipedia articles that have 2x to 6x times the size of the paragraph but why doesn't he talk about that. The truth is our dispute should have continued when I last edited on 23:06, 28 May 2022 (UTC) with my version being the current one instead, otherwise what's the point of asking others to engage in discussion anymore?
Hunan201p control what should be edited and how it should be edited. Please understand I'm dealing with someone who manipulates the rules and time in Wikipedia disccusions.Hunan201p makes a huge wall of contribution. He edits like 40 to 50 wikipedia pages everyday. Creating a massive wall to prevent any user or admin from looking at his behaviour at talk pages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Hunan201p
Please see this https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=958378105#Disruptive_editing_at_User_talk:Hunan201pComments by Administators on Hunan201p and giving block for his behaviour; Avoid talk page disccusion, avoid building concensus, gibberish reasons, everything under a fake banner to edit to his preferred version. Ghizz Archus (talk) 23:04, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
References
I have few things I want to edit in the physical appearance of this article but currently I am being prevented by Hunan201p to edit on anything. Can anyone out there please give me your opinions. You can check the history I had my edited version on the article of Ashina tribe] since 2nd of June, for a total of 2 months and 3 days.P Keep in mind I first started this dispute first and replied everything till the end (above this article titled " Correcting some mistakes) Hunan201p 2 months didn't respond and than just decides to have everything removed.
Tell me if there's any problem.
1) Hunan201p used Lee and Kuang (2017) as sources in first paragraph but is not clear enough. It makes no explanation why they are different. I also use Lee and Kuang (2017) to explain further why historical records described Gokturks and Kirghiz so differently.
2) Editing Gokturk Khagans like Shibi Khan (also known as Ashina Duojishi) and Chuluo Khan were the reason for denying Simo from being a Shad for having Sogdian physical appearance just like it's stated in the Qilibi Khan page.
3) I also want to make it more clear by adding physical description of Kyrgyz from the Old Tang of Book and 11th century Persian historian source no.1 and source no.2
Please give your opinion if you agree.Ghizz Archus (talk) 09:49, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
I don't see any reason why Human 201p should stop you. All your previous references demonstrated to be based on reliable, published sources, show your research, publish them. The best option is to let them learn they are wrong on their own, because they aren't going to back down even if you have a convincing argument.Shinoshijak (talk) 16:41, 28 August 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shinoshijak (talk • contribs) 16:38, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
You added CN tags in the genetics section, but that content is already sourced in the inline citation [67].
From Lee (2018):
The Y-chromosomes of the Kök Türk elites, who cremated their dead (Wei Zheng 2008, Chapter 84, p. 1864), have not been investigated yet. We can only presume their patrilineal lineages by testing the DNA of their direct descendants, who are, however, difficult to identify. The Zhoushu [the book of the Zhou Dynasty] (Linghu Defen 2003, Chapter 50, p. 908) informs us that the Ashina, the royal clan of the Kök Türks, were related to the Qirghiz. If so, the Ashina may have belonged to the R1a1 lineage like the modern-day Tienshan Qirghiz, who are characterised by the high frequency of R1a1 (over 60%).16 Haplogroup R1a1, more specifically, its subclade R1a1a1b2 defined by mutation Z93, was carried by the Indo-European pastoralists, who reached the Kazakh steppes, the Tarim Basin, the Altai Mountains region, the Yenisei River region, and western Mongolia from the Black Sea steppes during the Bronze Age (Semino et al. 2000, p. 1156).17
If it is the word "commonly" you object to, and I'm assuming that's what this is about, see quotes from the following papers:
From Shao Qing-Weng, et al 2021: [23]
Therefore, the Kyrgyz are an admixed population between the East and the West. Different patterns have been observed in the patrilineal gene pool of the Kyrgyz. Extremely low Y-diversity and the presence of a high-frequency (63% [10], 54.5% [11], or 68.9% [12]) Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a1-M17 (a diagnostic Indo-Iranian marker [10]) are striking features of Kyrgyz populations in central Asia.
And from Kim, et al (2010):[24]
We analyzed mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), Y-chromosome single nucleotide polymor- phisms (Y-SNP), and autosomal short tandem repeats (STR) of three skeletons found in a 2,000-year-old Xiongnu elite cemetery in Duurlig Nars of Northeast Mongolia. This study is one of the first reports of the detailed genetic analysis of ancient human remains using the three types of genetic markers. The DNA analyses revealed that one subject was an ancient male skeleton with maternal U2e1 and paternal R1a1 haplogroups. This is the first genetic evidence that a male of distinctive Indo-European lineages (R1a1) was present in the Xiongnu of Mongolia. This might indicate an Indo-European migration into Northeast Asia 2,000 years ago.
Also from Lee & Kuang (2017):[25]
haplogroup R1a1 has not been classified into its subclade R1a1a1b1a (R1a-Z282), which prevails among East Slavs, and subclade R1a1a1b2 (R1a-Z93), which spread across Eurasia by the Bronze Age Indo-European (Iranic) pastoralists and is carried by various modern-day Turkic groups.65
By no means an exhaustive list, and they're all secondary in nature, on this specific subject, citing independent sources. - Hunan201p (talk) 07:47, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
@Qiushufang: About the physical appearance first and original Ashina clan. While I wouldn't dare call them pure East Asian and probably they were not, is it still possible for them to have look predominant East Asian in the sense of Kazakhs, Kyrgyz or a exact intermediate. Currently the page will make you think it's proven that Ashina are proven to be some pure Indo-Iranian West Eurasian people because they resembled Yenesei Kyrgyz but even now any anthropology or genetic evidence suggest Yenesei Kyrgyz were mixture East-West of varrying degrees. Look at the source by Boris Zhikov where suggest alternative possibly that Ashina were mixed instead.
Khazaria in the Ninth and Tenth Centuries - Page 24 Boris Zhivkov · 2015
And from Boris Zhikov[26], quoting Stoianov (2004):
What is your opinion ???Ghizz Archus (talk) 13:44, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
@Kansas Bear: can you add the exact quote? I couldn't find. Thanks. Beshogur (talk) 20:09, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
As seen in the study of the early Ashina princess in January, the Ashina princess was 97.7 percent Northeast Asian.doubious assumption based on one single person's dna, whom one of its parents, and one of its grandparents were of Chinese or Xianbei origin. I'm not saying that Ashina were Indo-Europeans though. Beshogur (talk) 08:21, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
This edit was made by Volgabulgari, a sockpuppet. It includes original research(bolded) stating, "This genetic analysis supported the Northeast Asian origin of Ashina tribe and weakened the Indo-Iranian hypothesis.", which is a blatant lie. Said source, Ancient genome of Empress Ashina reveals the Northeast Asian origin of Göktürk Khanate, makes no mention of Indo-Iranian at all. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
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