Survey (Requested move 26 April 2020)
- Move to Coronavirus pandemic per the nom but this title avoids the abbreviation which the full "coronavirus" is used in my experience more often than the abbriviated "COVID" so we can drop the date but not abbreviate. If there is another pandemic later we can move it back or to something like 2019–21 coronavirus pandemic if this one continues into 2021 and there is another one we need to disambiguate from later but thankfully it seems unlikely in the year future there will be another that is large enough to be a pandemic so we can probably use the more concise title. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:52, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- Unless it has a name specific to the current disease, rather than the family of viruses. Kevin McE (talk) 19:17, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- You're confusing diseases and viruses. We could in theory move the article to "SARS-CoV-2 pandemic" if you wanted to name it after a more specific virus than "Coronavirus pandemic" (although in practice we shouldn't, as pandemics are named for diseases, not viruses, and COVID-19 is the disease name). --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 19:37, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- No he isn't confusing anything. "COVID-19" is more specific than "coronavirus." I can't fathom any argument to the contrary. Global Cerebral Ischemia (talk) 14:02, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose The date is correct now, no reason to question when it will end (if it ends later, then the date can be changed, but not now), and no reason to think that this will be the one and only Covid-19 pandemic (some scientists in fact think that it will recur). We don't involve ourselves in crystal gazing. Undecided on changing to Covid-19, but leaning keep on coronavirus on grounds of common usage. Hzh (talk) 13:42, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- You are right, we should not involve ourselves in crystal ball gazing. In which case why are we currently claiming that there will be a finish to the event this year, and assuming that a disambiguation by year will be necessary? No-one can guarantee that a title will remain indefinitely, but one year that might be wrong is not less wrong than no year when one might subsequently be needed. Kevin McE (talk) 14:06, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- No one is claiming that it will end this year, only that the time period is correct as of now, a simple statement of fact. No assumption, no prediction, including any assumption that this will be the one and only Covid-19 pandemic. If the time period changes in the future, then it can be changed. There is also no point in keep changing the title, it is fine as it is. Hzh (talk) 14:27, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- When you say that the title is "fine as it is", is it your contention that it is correct and proper to name a pandemic after a loose group of viruses, rather than a disease? Kevin McE (talk) 14:51, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- I have already said that I'm undecided on Covid-19, but leaning keep. See above. Hzh (talk) 16:01, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- But if you are "leaning keep", you are stating that it is acceptable to name an epidemic after a group of viruses. I am not meaning to pursue you, but I really don't see what grounds anyone has for that. Are you willing to share yours? Kevin McE (talk) 16:38, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- The explanation is already given (on grounds of common usage), read it before badgering others for a difference of opinion. Hzh (talk) 17:02, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- Do you accept that this common usage is a common error, or at least a common lack of precision? An encyclopaedia should not be content to fall in with popular misconceptions, or widespread failings to distinguish between concepts. (As I have already said, I'm not trying to harangue you, Hzh, but I do want to present the counterargument to what you have been the first one to say.) Kevin McE (talk) 17:34, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- I would not complained if you had shown that you actually read what I wrote (even after I ask you to read it) before you kept asking. You can say that the common usage is inaccurate, but using the virus to refer to the disease is so common that it can justifiably be used per WP:COMMONNAME. See for example the BBC coverage - their news items are listed under coronavirus pandemic, and coronavirus is similarly used worldwide in many other major news outlets to describe the pandemic or outbreak - [1][2][3][4][5][6] so I don't think its use would be in any way controversial. Note also that COVID-19 is an acronym, and Wikipedia prefers full name instead of acronym for title. Hzh (talk) 18:03, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for engaging. I really don't think that WP:COMMONNAME helps us, because there is no clear consensus in the media, and examples of 'COVID-19 pandemic' can be found in all of the sites you have referenced. But if we look to more informed sources, bmj.com has 'COVID-19 pandemic' in a 40:1 majority (and many of the exceptions are part of the phrase 'novel coronavirus'), 72:1 in the Irish Journal of Medical Science site, 24:1 in thelancet.com: there seems to be a clear preference among those that can be considered reliable in their medical expertise rather than those that are 'merely' reliable reporters of incident.
- As to the acronym, I refer you to the consensus decision of the WikiProject that I mentioned in the opening post. Kevin McE (talk) 19:05, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I don't think leaving out the "2019-2020" is in any way predicting or assuming that there will be only one, just that there currently is only one. Generally, we don't disambiguate until after there's been more than one of something. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:53, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support - I agree with all 3 points raised and the conclusion. I disagree with the suggestion that "Coronavirus pandemic" is acceptable or meets the arguments set out by Kevin McE as it refers to a family of viruses, not the disease, even though it may represent common terminology. |→ Spaully ~talk~ 13:47, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support: The WP:NAMINGCRITERIA strongly favor the shorter, more natural, common and concise wording—wording that we will not have to revisit if the pandemic extends into 2021. I also agree with Kevin McE's and Spaully's reasons. —RCraig09 (talk) 15:57, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- — See the details of WP:NAMINGCRITERIA by Benica11, below. —RCraig09 (talk) 21:51, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Rename to COVID-19 pandemic per nom. --Soumyabrata stay at home 🏠 wash your hands to protect from COVID-19 😷 17:34, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
Support per Spaully. "Coronavirus" alone is a vague term, as it also includes SARS, MERS, and several strains of the common cold. CJK09 (talk) 20:07, 26 April 2020 (UTC) Neutral for now, leaning oppose. CJK09 (talk) 21:52, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support (strongly) per nom and Spaully. More natural, more common, more specific, more concise, and more accurate. And if the pandemic extends past 2020, we won't need to keep changing the title every year (we wouldn't have to change the title ever again!). It'll also help the search box function, since most people aren't typing "2019–20" into their searches. (Secondly, on the topic of the abbreviation, "COVID-19" is more used and more recognizable than the long form of "Coronavirus disease 2019").
- Neutral For the first two conclusion, I Support per nom. But I disagree to move to Coronavirus pandemic because it will better become a disambiguation page. 114.125.232.1 (talk) 21:28, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose as disruptive with little benefit. Enthusiasts unnecessarily even change the name of images after the previous rename. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:28, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know what you mean by that, nor what it has to do with the merits or demerits of the current proposal. Kevin McE (talk) 21:55, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose per other editors. It comes as more disruptive. 36.77.134.116 (talk) 21:47, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support The nomination and supporters are more convincing than the opposition to this point. "COVID-19 pandemic" is more concise and precise than "2019-20 coronavirus pandemic". As for "disruption", both titles will lead to the same location and we can update internal links easily. That's not a good reason to not move the page and its associated pages. – Muboshgu (talk)`
- Support COVID by far the most searched term now.... well besides 3 misspelling of Coronavirus....lol.--Moxy 🍁 22:24, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
Support Neutral - The proposed new title is indeed in some respects "more natural, more common, more specific, more concise, and more accurate." However, I am persuaded by other editors that the move (renaming) will open a hornet's nest of necessary (for consistency) moves/renaming requests, discussions, and attempts to reach consensus for each article with "2019–2020 coronavirus pandemic" in its title. Edit on 27 Apr 2020 @ 22:25 (UTC) - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I'm a man—traditional male pronouns are fine.) 23:08, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- Actually, there's already a strong consensus building (based on your very astute comment in the section below) that if this page moves, all of the pages with it in the title will also be moved. There won't need to be a billion move requests or individual discussions. Also, pretty sure the batch of pages could easily be moved by bot. Paintspot Infez (talk) 13:20, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- @Paintspot: Ah, I did not know that could be done. I thought each article would have to undergo the renaming and moving process individually. Along those lines, I bet that a lot of editors are like me, i.e., they don't know about the possibility of a 'mass move (renaming)' [my term]. I'm thinking that a separate RM, which proposes "moving" (renaming) all the articles with "2019–2020 coronavirus pandemic" in the title—at the same time, en mass—is needed. But I defer to more knowledgeable editors on that point. ¶ Thank you for your kind words! :0) All the best - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I'm a man—traditional male pronouns are fine.) 13:14, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 23:25, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support, the name is clear and unambiguous for now, WP:CRYSTAL. sam1370 (talk) 04:55, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Oppose I support your first two points, but not your third. I think we should change "Coronavirus" to "COVID-19" as it is more precise, and my ideal title would be "2019-20 COVID-19 pandemic". Other articles such as 2009 swine flu pandemic include the date, so if we rename this article "COVID-19 pandemic" we might as well rename that one "Swine flu pandemic". The date is an important characteristic of a pandemic, so I think we should keep that in. Counterarguments: "because there will be disagreement as to whether it is accurate to talk of pandemic situation in 2019" Wikipedia is all about disagreement, we should be bold and not mind if there is any argument; I think that in another rename discussion it was agreed that the pandemic classification classified the entire thing as a pandemic, not that it was a pandemic from March 2020 onwards. "because it is not absolutely clear that the pandemic will finish before 2020 does" We can always rename the title. "in the hope that whatever may happen with this virus in the future, it does not bring about a second full blown epidemic, and that such disambiguation would be redundant" If there is a second epidemic, having "COVID-19 pandemic" will cause a problem, as it will be unclear which pandemic it is referring to. Whereas if we keep the dates, we could, for example, have two separate articles for "2019-20 COVID-19 pandemic" and, for example, "2021-22 COVID-19 pandemic". sam1370 (talk) 00:10, 27 April 2020 (UTC)))
- Support. Let’s look at WP:CRITERIA
- Recognizability - works with either title
- Naturalness - works with either title
- Precision - COVID-19 is more precise, but I doubt anyone is going to mix up the two
- Conciseness - This is why we don’t need a year. How many times have you heard of a coronavirus/COVID-19 outbreak before last December? I’d think about zero.
- Consistency - As OP pointed out, the WikiProject seems to prefer COVID-19. Benica11 (talk) 03:16, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- @Beniica11: I agree with most of these things, however I think we should leave the date in. It gives the pandemic context within history -- in the future it will probably become less well-known so we'll want to have the date it happened in. See 2009 swine flu pandemic which I used for my example earlier, should we rename that "Swine flu pandemic"? sam1370 (talk) 03:54, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- @Sam1370: I guess the issue is that some similar articles don’t have a year like Spanish flu, and the -19 in COVID-19 is the year anyways. But we might want to add a full year eventually to give historical context if future generations begin to forget about this pandemic. Benica11 (talk) 04:50, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- @Beniica11: True, and after all WP:CRYSTAL applies, the name COVID-19 pandemic is clear and unambiguous for now. I'll change my stance. sam1370 (talk) 04:55, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- I am intrigued that as a doctor of medicine you consider it to "make sense" that a pandemic carry the name of a group of viruses, rather than the name of the disease. Are there precedents or reasons for this in the medical literature> Would this be normal practice in medical nomenclature? Kevin McE (talk) 08:54, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- I'm also a doctor of medicine (working in critical care), and incidentally, I've also worked on mathematical models of infectious disease. FWIW, I agree with you, it does not "make sense." It is not regular practice in the medical literature I've seen where the virus per se is alternatively referred to as SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19 (despite the latter being technically incorrect). Here, the guidelines are clear and unambiguous per WP:COMMONNAME. Global Cerebral Ischemia (talk) 12:34, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- The full name of the disease is "Coronavirus disease 2019" We added the "2019-20" to the front and we added pandemic after. We than dropped "disease" and "2019" as "2019-20 coronavirus disease 2019 pandemic" was too long. WHO uses "Coronavirus disease pandemic"[7] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:57, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- But do you accept that in changing from "coronavirus disease 2019" to "coronavirus", albeit for admirable motives of brevity and avoidance of duplication, you have changed what identifies this pandemic from the name of a disease (the principle applied by WHO) to that of a group of viruses? That is what is semantically untenable, although it is a mistake that Wikipedia has been far from alone in making. Do you also accept that the principles of brevity and avoidance of duplication are also met by the current proposal? And if you do, what is your objection to the current proposal? Kevin McE (talk) 14:15, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Not sure we should use the abbreviation rather than at least part of the full name. There are trade offs between the two. My position in one direction over the other however is not that strong. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:38, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose, as many articles use "2019–20 coronavirus pandemic" in their title, and then we'll have to change those too. No way.
>>BEANS X2t 09:05, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support. COVID-19 has solidified as the common name. As for the need to update other articles, the retort would be that besides them being better off, we'll probably have to update them to 2019-2021 pandemic come next January, as it is likely there will be at least some spillover to 2021.--Eostrix (talk) 09:10, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose There would be too many pages to rename, and links could possibly be broken. Rarely do we allow abbreviations to be included in page titles. Also, the current name has been adopted to such an extent that it would be more difficult to adjust to a new naming convention. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 10:47, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- The pages that would need to be moved could very easily be done by bot. And if we keep the current title, we'd have to move them all again to "2019–2021..." if this continues into next year. This also solves the problem of putting "2019" in the title since it wasn't a pandemic in 2019. Paintspot Infez (talk) 13:20, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- Not sure what 'adjust'ment on the part of editors would be required: there will be residual redirect links for your watched/contributions pages. Kevin McE (talk) 15:08, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- There would be broken links here and there, and there is a chance that templates would not transclude properly. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 03:15, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Let's not assume that this will be the only outbreak or pandemic that SARS-CoV-2 will be involved in. There would still be a need to disambiguate by placing 2020 or 2019–20 in page titles, but it would be quite unpleasant to the eye if the page titles began with 2020 COVID-19 or 2019–20 COVID-19, which, in the first place, results from how the WHO wanted to name the disease. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 03:15, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- As stated, it is no less crystal balling to assume that it will end this year than to assume that year disambiguation will be needed. And it is Crystal balling to assume that year disambiguation is needed. Kevin McE (talk) 15:08, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- "Coronavirus" is less descriptive than "COVID-19" - the majority of us have suffered colds caused by coronaviruses, but most of us have not had COVID-19. Magic9mushroom (talk) 19:48, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- It is crystal balling to want to keep the newer name "in case of future pandemics". Let's use COVID-19 pandemic for now as it is concise. We can rename the page if there is another pandemic. sam1370 (talk) 02:09, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support, The Spanish flu page is called Spanish flu, not 1918-19 flu pandemic. Nojus R (talk) 18:29, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support: Nearly every business' website has a link to a "COVID-19 Update" or "COVID-19 Response" message, nearly every commercial email I get these days refers to "COVID-19", every local and national government website that I've used as a source when updating various chart templates on Wikipedia calls it "COVID-19". Calling it "coronavirus" is too casual and imprecise for an encyclopedia. Per WP:CRITERIA, "COVID-19" beats "2019–20 coronavirus" on precision" and "conciseness", is a tie on "recognizability" and "naturalness", and "consistency" is easy to fix. We can always rename it again in the future if there is a second COVID-19 pandemic (and the virus is similar enough that it's not called COVID-24 or whatever). Besides, it's difficult to get people to type "(2019–20)" instead of "(2019-20)". --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 19:32, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- Strong Support - Google results for "covid-19 pandemic" show 149,000,000 results to sites such as FAO.org, Unicef.org, Eui.eu, Unv.org, Time.com, MIT.edu, WHO.int, theGuardian.com. Conversely, "2019–20 coronavirus pandemic" has a mere 259,000 results from largely wiki based sites. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 22:44, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- Just a couple more Google search results - for me "covid-19 pandemic" (with quotes) gets 139,000,000 results, and "coronavirus pandemic" (again with quotes) gets 124,000,000 results. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:23, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support. Per Veritycheck, it's more common and concise. Bluesatellite (talk) 07:22, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support. "COVID-19 pandemic" is technically the correct name, and also in widespread usage already (although "coronavirus pandemic" is somewhat more common, but lacking the necessary precision). We don't actually need to specify the year because it is already implied by "COVID-19", so this is just adding unnecessary clutter to the title. If there will be another coronavirus disease in the future (unfortunately quite likely), it won't be named "COVID-19", so there is no problem with ambiguation. Also, changing the title to get rid of the abbreviated year range "2019–20" would improve compliance with our naming conventions per MOS, according to which "2019–2020" would be the preferred form - but this would likely end up as "2019–2021", anyway. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 11:43, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose coronavirus is more widely used than than COVID. Vpab15 (talk) 14:11, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- You are comparing apples with banans (incompletely spelled bananas) (group of viruses with incomplete name of one disease). The relevant comparison is "coronavirus pandemic" vs "COVID-19 pandemic". The error of naming the pandemic for the virus group is undoubtedly widespread, but that does not mean that we should fall prey to it: we should apply sound semantic principles in keeping with accurate professional (professional epidemiologists, not professional journalists)practice. WP:COMMONNAME does not give a clear answer, but when we are faced with a choice between correct and incorrect usage, Commonname is not the policy we should be looking to. Kevin McE (talk) 14:41, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- "Fruit" is more widely used than "Banana". Should we move that article to "Long yellow fruit"? --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:01, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- WP:COMMONNAME says we should "prefers the name that is most commonly used ". Right now coronavirus is more widely used than COVID-19 and is used to refer to the current pandemic and its effects, not to the family of viruses. Vpab15 (talk) 17:56, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- That is some rather selective quoting. It also says, "When there is no single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic by these sources, editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best by considering these criteria directly," and "Editors should also consider all five of the criteria for article titles outlined above," the five criteria referenced in each case being those with which Benica11 has dealt with very efficiently above. WP:COMMONNAME also says, "inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable source," which is the case here. Kevin McE (talk) 18:11, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- What data supports "coronavirus is more widely used than than COVID"? Is that based perhaps on your feeling or where you live? Google shows the following results: - "Coronavirus" about 2,380,000,000 results, while "covid-19" about 3,000,000,000. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 19:48, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- You are right about google search results, which I found surprising. However, checking various news sites, it seems coronavirus is much preferred to COVID-19. Checking main page of various sites, no mention of COVID in [8]. For [9][10][11][12][13] use is mixed, but coronavirus is more common by a factor of 4 or more. I'd say the pandemic has affected many aspects of life and "coronavirus" is now used in a much wider sense than a virus or group of viruses. Vpab15 (talk) 20:46, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose. FFS, the fact that the moratorium has expired does not mean we immediately start an RM. Generally when there's a moratorium of any length, we only consider subsequent changes if something major has cheaanged in real life. Anyway, if you really need a reason not to move this, then pick any of those above - (1) although "COVID-19" has come into the lexicon, the common name for the pandemic in the public consciousness and in reliable sources is still "coronavirus", and that word needs to be in the title; (2) even if the proposed name or others were marginally better, the time we've spent so far arguing over this is excessive. We picked a name in Feb after painstaking argument, and it's not productive to revisit that, that's why the moratorium was imposed.; (3) having the dates is useful. — Amakuru (talk) 14:18, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- You got the moratorium you asked for, it was respected. Please respect the right to do now what there is no longer a moratorium against.
- 1) Common usage, as has been demonstrated in this discussion, is clearly split, but there is an inportant semantic principle at stake which you have presented no argument against. To include the phrase 'coronavirus pandemic' in the title is contrary to the consensus statement presented at the top of this page.
- 2) To persist with semantic error because we have been making that error for a coupe of months already is entirely contradictory to encyclopaedic purpose. We are talking about page titles that should be in place for many years to come, so let's not look uninformed forever for the sake of what has been the case for a couple of months.
- 3) What anyone considers 'useful' is an entirely objective opinion, others are at least equally entitled to consider it redundant. However, the dates are as yet unknown, the year of emergence of the disease is implied in the proposed title and I think we can be confident that most informed readers seeing the name COVID-19 will know what the 19 refers to, and there is no naming policy that requires dating of events in their page title (should Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand be at 1914 Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand?). Kevin McE (talk) 14:41, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- I'd like to add on to your third point: should Spanish flu be renamed to 1918 flu pandemic simply because having the date is useful? WP:COMMONNAME applies here, as "COVID-19 pandemic" is both common, accurate, and precise. sam1370 (talk) 18:43, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- This is an interesting point. It made me question what was the exact name of the 9/11 page. It is "September 11 attacks" (even if "9/11" also redirects to it). It would be accurate and even more precise (mainly because every year has an eleventh day in the month of September), but I don't think we should rename it to "2001 September 11 attacks", nor "11 September 2001 attacks", nor "September 11, 2001, attacks", nor "2001-September-11 attacks", nor "Terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001", nor other similar combinations. So, I agree with Kevin McE and sam1370's justifications. If it ever occurs another series of attacks on the 11th day of September of another year, I promise that I will reconsider it. ACLNM (talk) 22:03, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support. Usage has already shifted from the generic to the specific term. Moving gives us now the advantage of getting rid of the prefix (and hope there will be no second pandemic of COVID-19) Agathoclea (talk) 14:54, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support removing dates. They only cause confusion and make the article difficult to search for. As of now, this is the only COVID-19 pandemic in history. If there is a later pandemic of the same disease (as opposed to a second or third wave of this one), we can talk about dates then. Scolaire (talk) 15:04, 28 April 2020 (UTC) [Edit] Support "COVID-19 pandemic" rather than "Coronavirus 2019 pandemic". The disease is commonly known as "COVID-19" or "the coronavirus", not as "Coronavirus 2019". It is officially known as "Coronavirus Disease 2019", so "Coronavirus 2019" fails here as well. Scolaire (talk) 13:42, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support, coronaviruses are a group of viruses, of which SARS-CoV-2 is one, which causes COVID-19. -- Jeandré, 2020-04-28t17:14z
- Oppose Everyone here speaks about corona, nobody does about some kind of covid with some kind of number (where some people even guessed it was the 19. kind of virus, instead of the year 2019). Please keep in mind that English is not only used in the US (where even "Wuhan flu" was suggested!?). Speaking for Europe, it's corona which is in the news. And nobody knows what COVID stands for (and that it must be upper case), while everyone knows the crown shape of the virus by now. --Traut (talk) 18:38, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Who is the everyone you are referring to? It’s certainly not me. Additionally, where is here? Wikipedia’s role isn’t to set standards, but rather to reflect what is in use elsewhere. Your nobody doesn’t include me or others who do know what COVID 19 stands for. Finally, not everyone knows that corona means crown. Sweeping generalisations don’t make for good arguments. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 20:08, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- You ACTUALLY do know what COVID stands for? But you do not know that it is COVID-19, not COVID 19? I must admit, I did not know what COVID stands for. I looked it up. But then, why isn't it CoViD-19? WHO themselves sometimes name it COVID 2019! And if you want to be precise, SARS-CoV-2 would be even more precise! --Traut (talk) 20:39, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- I know about several European countries. You live in Italy? I checked some of the most important Italian newspapers. All name coronavirus on the main page, none COVID-19. Where is your here? --Traut (talk) 22:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Are these English newspapers? Anyhow if you look at English speaking countries will often use COVID. It sounds rather cool in an Australian accent. Agathoclea (talk) 13:00, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- @Traut, I'm also included in your "nobody" and I'm also in Europe, in a small country called Portugal. Here, within the limited range of possibilities, the media try to be as scientific as possible. Orally, they refer to the virus as "the/this coronavirus/virus", and call the disease by the correct term "COVID-19" or by "COVID" (incomplete, but easier to say 150 times in a 30-minute segment of news; when saying "19", they usually say it in the portuguese form "dezanove"); in titles and infographics, they usually use "COVID-19" and "coronavirus" (as in "Today's COVID-19 cases/numbers" and "Coronavirus Restrictions"). In the printing press, many articles try to introduce the different concepts in a way such as "This pandemic of the disease COVID-19, caused by the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2, a virus from the same family of the virus SARS-CoV, the virus that was responsible for the SARS outbreak in 2002" (here's an example[1] from an article written by the secretary-general of ANMSP, the portuguese association of public health medical doctors). Outside the media, in everyday speech, people refer to the virus and the disease interchangingly, in the forms "the virus/coronavirus" and "the COVID/COVID-19" (both frequent), "the corona" (more informal and less frequent), and "the SARS-CoV-2" (the correct name of the virus; rarer but more frequently used by more literate people, i.e., health professionals and scientists). ACLNM (talk) 23:27, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the feedback. I checked headlines on cmjornal.pt (CORONA VIRUS), destak.pt (COVID-19, COVID 19), record.pt (Coronavírus) and publico.pt (Coronavírus, naming Covid-19 and covid-19). If you drop the "-19", COVID becomes exactly as inspecific as corona virus itself - and people start dropping the number. That's ok, but if anyone speaks about corona, it's just the virus that we have for the very moment. It's up to the specialists to refer exactly to SARS-CoV-2 in order not to confuse it with any other virus. My vote would be for the "2020 corona pandemic" (as 2009 swine flu pandemic, the 1918 Spanish flu 1918 flu pandemic etc. --Traut (talk) 12:03, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Calling this corona pandemic would be a terrible idea. Very few sources call it anything close. Heck for me, one of the top news stories at the moment seems to be about a new born baby called corona. Nil Einne (talk) 13:50, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE. "COVID-19" seems to have taken hold as the more common name. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:56, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support "COVID-19" and "Covid" seem to be more common now than coronavirus. Coronavirus is also a somewhat inaccurate name as this is one of a group of coronaviruses. COVID-19 is the more proper name so I think it is a good fit. Atlas50 (talk) 20:42, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- oppose per Traut--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 21:14, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support per reasons 1., 2., 3.(a), 3.(b) listed by Kevin McE. The possibility of another COVID-19 pandemic (3.(c)) is not a serious counterargument to the proposal. If SARS-CoV-2 evolves enough to be able to cause a new pandemic despite the immunity and vaccinations of the first pandemic, chances are the next pandemic would be given a new name, such as COVID-25, for example. It's more likely that the next pandemic will be from one of the other many suspected sources of Disease X (which might have to be renamed Disease Y if COVID-19 is officially defined as Disease X). Boud (talk) 21:24, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- I feel it's unfortunate that so much different aspects are merged for this move. I do not like the 2019-20 prefix myself. But I do not understand why you vote for "2" since no one suggests to name this "coronavirus 19". For me it's either to use "corona" vs. COVID-19. Or to drop the 2019-2020 prefix (who knows whether it will remain the 2019-21 or more?). Bit it's not about coronavirus 2019. --Traut (talk) 22:04, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- I offered in the OP to withdraw this if there were a preference for three RfCs, to discuss the three elements to the change, but in c50 replies you are the first to suggest any dissatisfaction with dealing with it all in one discussion. Kevin McE (talk) 08:06, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- And the article can explain clearly in its opening sentence where the name COVID-119 comes from so that there is no need for that error to persist. But explanation/education is dealt with in the articles, not in their titles. Kevin McE (talk) 08:06, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- This is not really a problem because there are bots which can carry out most of the renaming, and, of course, there will be redirects to catch the old title(s) as well. So, nobody would miss the article. It is just that the article as is resides under its technical correct name, which I consider highly desirable for an encyclopedia. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 18:50, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose for consistency and to avoid confusion. Additionally, I have seen some people claim that COVID-19 is a more common way to refer to the virus than coronavirus nowadays. This has not been my personal experience; in my social circles as well as on my local news it is still almost exclusively referred to as coronavirus. Teddybearearth (talk) 00:08, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- But nobody should be referring to the virus as COVID-19: that is a name for the disease. And if in your community the virus is (not incorrectly, but rather imprecisely) referred to as coronavirus, that is no justification for naming the pandemic after a virus rather than a disease. Kevin McE (talk) 08:06, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support per above. Coronavirus lacks specificity, there are other Coronaviruses. Liam Skoda (talk) 00:16, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support As mentioned before per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONCISE, WP:NAMINGCRITERIA and WP:NOTCRYSTALBALL. I'm a doctor and officially we refer to the pandemic mostly by COVID-19 than simply coronavirus. WHO has a pattern to give names to new diseases and that is done so we can avoid xenophobia, discrimination and other problems related to a poor naming (like Chinese flu or something like it). That makes the name relevant enough to have such distinction. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 00:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support per above. Nate 2169 Talk
Contributions 00:44, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support per nom. — 1857a (talk) 01:06, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support per discussions above Triangleman3 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:28, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support, the proposed is slightly better, and slightly overcomes WP:TITLECHANGES. The proposed is more correct. 2019-2020 Coronavirus Pandemic is "correct" but less so. The pandemic is over not just any coronavirus, or coronaviruses in general, but specifically the SARS‑CoV‑2 virus. COVID-19 is the disease caused by SARS‑CoV‑2 virus. This disease is very unlikely to be confined to the 2019-2020 date space, and so it is appropriate to drop the date with the proposed new title "COVID-19 pandemic", which will be timeless. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:32, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support: Per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONCISE. Chinese Wikipedia already has the article named after the disease, not the virus: zh:2019冠状病毒病疫情. —Wei4Green (talk, contributions) 02:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose: The name COVID or COVID-19 is very technical, harder to utter, and most speeches mention the pandemic as the coronavirus. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 03:22, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- To a similar extent that COVID-19 is technical, referring to this thing as "coronavirus" is incorrect, is broken. Coronavirus, the technical term, is very very broad, much more broad than the specific virus, and still much more broad than the virus class. The term dereives from the morphology, "virus with a crown", which is a common morphology. COVID-19 is "harder to utter" is nonsense, it is easier, less syllables, unambiguous emphasis pattern, and irrelevant really. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:31, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- “ko-vid-nine-teen” vs “twen-tee-nine-teen-twen-tee ko-ron-uh-vie-rus pan-dem-ik” Look at this and decide for yourself which is harder to utter. sam1370 (talk) 11:34, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Calm down Joe. No need to shun someone for disagreeing with his opinion. Everybody here wrote his opinion, like others and me. Re-read what I wrote, and you'll see I meant in aloud spoken contexts, including in news reports, the word coronavirus is more common, easier, and friendlier to say, by native English language speakers or second language speakers. To another similar extent, calling a radio-wave receiver, just radio is also incorrect, but it just happened that the word refers to both, the receiver and the electromagnetic wave range, and even to internet audio streams!
- And, no Sam, no one talks about two thousand nineteen, twenty coronavirus, they just say coronavirus, which is easier and more recognizable, and not covid nineteen. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 21:04, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Mahmudmasri: Oh yes, I misunderstood your comment. However, ko-vid-nine-teen is easier to utter than ko-ron-a-vi-rus, as it has less syllables. User:SmokeyJoe never shunned you, he just said that your claim that COVID-19 was harder to say than coronavirus was nonsense -- which it is, considering that COVID-19 has less syllables. sam1370 (talk, contribs) 21:18, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment. I consider myself an advocate for our readers and therefore I think that using the simplest/most widespread terms for this event (whether we choose "Coronavirus" or "COVID-19" pandemic) would be very helpful to our general audience in finding and remembering this very important article and its vital information, especially for the duration of this emergency. However, once the emergency ends, the name of this article should look more encyclopedic and in line with the other similar articles and include the *year/s* in the front, so it ultimately looks like: "2020-XX something something". We are witnessing an event of historic proportions, so please don't forget to add the date once it ends! Cordially, History DMZ (talk)+(ping) 03:52, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
-
- The COVID-19 *pandemic* was declared by the WHO in 2020, that's the start. If the article were simply titled "COVID-19" (thus covering the whole timeline) then the start would be 2019. Cordially, History DMZ (talk)+(ping) 06:52, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- So even if you are not happy with the proposal, you believe that the current naming for the page is wrong, and therefore that it should be changed? Kevin McE (talk) 08:06, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Kevin McE, the proposal that you presented is not wrong but it is incomplete. It presents a dilemma: using COVID-19 in the title is correct, and so is including the year 2020. Problem becomes the flow/readability of "2020 COVID-19 pandemic". Then if we try abbreviating to "2020 COVID pandemic" that may cause confusion and give the impression there is a covid-19 and a covid-20. Finally, "2020 coronavirus pandemic" solves some issues but raises others that were already mentioned by fellow users here. What I support is an easy-to-find practical article name *for now*, and a more detailed encyclopedic article name after this global crisis ends. Cordially, History DMZ (talk)+(ping) 11:57, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- There is no formulation that is totally future proof. Maybe (and let's all hope) there will be no further recurrence of a pandemic of this disease: in that case the current suggestion meets all requirements, and needs no year prefix to identify it. Maybe it will recur, but will have mutated to the extent that the disease is renamed (COVID-25 or whatever it may be): again, the proposed new name will be sufficient to identify it. Maybe there will be a second major outbreak, and we will need to specify, presumably with a year prefix, the extent of the incident we are living through with the benefit of hindsight to know whether it is generally accepted that what happened in December was the start of the pandemic, and knowledge of when it finished. Maybe opinion and/or expert advice will turn against the idea of 2019 as having seen anything of the pandemic, which would affect the present formulation (and many others) but not mine. And maybe it will drag on beyond the end of this year, in which case my proposal is unaffected, but the current name, crystal balling a conclusion in 2020, would need changing, as would all the related pages. Kevin McE (talk) 13:40, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: This isn't Simple English Wikipedia. It would be better to put a redirect instead. However, we still need to know which term is more recognizable, COVID-19 or Coronavirus. My idea is that whichever term is more recognizable, we use that as the mainspace article name. RareButterflyDoors (talk) 05:34, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support - moving it to "COVID-19 pandemic" is a much better title as mentioned by many people above. It's shorter, precise, concise, it is more accurate since it is using its established name "COVID-19", instead of "coronavirus" which refers to multiple other viruses, and by omitting the date range, we won't have to keep moving the article if the pandemic extends into another year. --TheSameGuy (talk) 06:19, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support per nom. Having the year prefix is clumsy. Ljgua124 (talk) 07:08, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support Coronavirus is too general; COVID-19 is more specific. Jam ai qe ju shikoni (talk) 09:48, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- @RareButterflyDoors I don't see how that puts my argument down. Did you perhaps mean "Coronavirus" and misspelled it as "COVID-19"? Jam ai qe ju shikoni (talk) 14:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- No, I meant that COVID-19 is a more recognizable term to name the article. RareButterflyDoors (talk) 01:19, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- @RareButterflyDoors Ah, gotcha. At first glance it seemed to like you were arguing against me; that's why I asked. Other than meeting the criteria for WP:COMMONNAME, it also seems to meet the criteria for WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE. Jam ai qe ju shikoni (talk) 11:52, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support per common name. TheGreatSG'rean (talk) 12:05, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support Should be as per the common name of the disease, not the year. Vikram Maingi (talk) 12:51, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support for the many reasons given above. "COVID-19" is not only more concise, it's more accurate than "coronavirus" (which gives a false impression about coronaviruses in general; they're one of the viruses responsible for the common cold!)...however, I'd prefer keeping the date prefix. "2019-20 COVID-19 Pandemic" would be best IMO. Nevertheless, "COVID-19 Pandemic" is better than what we have now. Global Cerebral Ischemia (talk) 12:25, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose Try again in a few months time if "COVID-19" is really the most common way of referring to the pandemic at that time. Round my neck of the woods, "coronavirus" is still what it's generally called. Both titles are probably acceptable, which means that whichever was originally used should remain for simplicity's sake. 31.53.12.152 (talk) 13:30, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support as specificity (from other coronavirus disease i.e. the common cold) is required. Magic9mushroom (talk) 14:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Strongly support as I have done since january, as my first edits on the issue before becoming a prolific editor in Feb- early march. For the same reasoning, the current name is not WP:PRECISE and the WP:COMMONNAME as many including myself predicted, is COVID-19. I recognize that according to the WHO, that is technically an abbreviation. But they intended for it to become the common name, and it has, we must follow. --Almaty (talk) 14:22, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support as per common name Geekgecko (talk) 15:52, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. --Wolbo (talk) 16:41, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- At this point in time, they're seemingly tied for which is the common name. (As said above, "..."covid-19 pandemic" (with quotes) shows 149,000,000 results to sites such as FAO.org, Unicef.org, Eui.eu, Unv.org, Time.com, MIT.edu, WHO.int, theGuardian.com. Conversely, "coronavirus pandemic" (again with quotes) gets 124,000,000 results and "2019–20 coronavirus pandemic" has a mere 259,000 results from largely wiki based sites.") Additionally, since they're generally tied for which is the common name, it would make more sense to use the more correct, more specific, more concise, more accurate, more natural name. Paintspot Infez (talk) 16:52, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Nonsense, a quick tour of leading English speaking news(paper) website shows coronavirus is used much more frequently, and much more prominently, than Covid-19. It is nowhere near equal.--Wolbo (talk) 17:27, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Covid stands for the disease, and is the most specific, WP:concise and WP:precise qualifier for the pandemic under WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. Search count for 'coronavirus' (alone) is irrelevant. —RCraig09 (talk) 17:45, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support points 1 and 2 per nom and other editors.
Oppose point 3. The resultant name would be: 2019–20 COVID-19 pandemic. There is no reason to believe this will be the sole COVID-19 pandemic in history. Indeed, several sources suggest subsequent waves are inevitable. [2][3] Change to Full Support. Re-read above discussion in light of Global Cerebral Ischemia's comment below. I'm convinced that the year need be added only if and when another COVID-19 pandemic occurs. Was especially convinced by discussion re: Spanish flu and September 11 attacks above. Sahitana (talk) 17:19, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- FWIW, subsequent waves (in the fall and winter) would be considered part of the same ongoing pandemic and be covered by this article. Presuming that this pandemic ends with an effective vaccine and/or herd immunity (in a year? a year and a half?), this would indeed be the sole COVID-19 pandemic in history. Global Cerebral Ischemia (talk) 19:11, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support Recognized name for this specific virus and pandemic. Coronavirus too generic and refers to all viruses of this type. Primecoordinator (talk) 18:45, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support The title is too long and COVID-19 is the exact term while coronavirus is a more generic term relating to a family of viruses. Alexceltare2 (talk) 19:15, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support COVID-19 is the disease. Furthermore, most of the pandemic (nearly all of it) has happened this year, only the very beggining was in 2019. Naming it "2019-2020...pandemic" would be confusing for future readers, this is more accurate. WesSirius (talk) 19:40, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support The current title is a compromise from before any single name was common, now that COVID-19 has become the common name the article title should be changed to reflect this. Sonictrey (talk) 00:41, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support I support COVID-19 as it simpler and its more widely recognize.In my country at least they call it covid or covid 19 in most news. Like a user above mention we dont call the spanish flu the 1918 pandemic etc, so this case should not be different. --Allancalderini12 (talk) 01:30, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- For those new editors wanting to join the discussion, here's a list of arguments made by editors. This is very long lol
- Under Support:
- Concise name, per WP:CONCISE
- Recognizable term for it, per WP:COMMONNAME
- Eliminates the need for changing the article name every year
- Prevents nonsense terms like "Chinese Virus" or "Chinese Flu"
- More specific; coronavirus is a general term, per WP:PRECISION
- Under Oppose:
- Too technical
- Already easy to understand
- More descriptive
- Recognizable term for it, per WP:COMMONNAME
I think that's all the arguments I can find. This is just to let new editors who want to take part of the discussion know how the discussion is ongoing, because this thread is REALLY long. You can change this if you want. Anyway stan Jimmy Wales RareButterflyDoors (talk) 02:45, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Biased list, some have used WP:COMMONNAME to argue against changing the name. It can be said that both terms (COVID-19 and coronavirus) are equally commonly used. Changing the article name every year is a very minor issue that we won't have to worry about for eight months. I don't see how changing the title to COVID-19 prevents nonsense terms. Another valid argument against changing the title is people don't realise the 19 in COVID-19 stands for 2019 and therefore it will sound like a general title if it doesn't have the year attached. 31.53.12.152 (talk) 03:13, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- By the way, it might be worth checking Google Trends on this issue of which is more common. "Coronavirus" seems to be a far, far more popular search term than COVID-19, both in the US and globally. I have to say COVID-19 sounds elitist and technical. 31.53.12.152 (talk) 03:27, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- I have mentioned that you can change the list. It was really hard to get a grasp of what arguments editors say since it was very long. RareButterflyDoors (talk) 03:58, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Comment If, God forbid, another outbreak or pandemic of COVID-19 will happen in the future, then we will have to rename articles such that we have to disambiguate using the year or years that it would occur. The name COVID-19 may sound common but it would confuse readers because there is no indication of when that outbreak or pandemic happened if there was no year in the title. The -19 refers to 2019, but the vast majority of countries are experiencing this pandemic in 2020. Also, the name coronavirus is generic but it is now used mostly as an alternative to saying COVID or COVID-19, so the other coronaviruses would stand less in name recall than this current one. Also, we have the article about the 2002–2004 SARS outbreak which, despite having happened only once, is still disambiguated using the years that it occured. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 05:58, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- FWIW, that was an "outbreak," not a "pandemic." The latter is more unique and perhaps less likely to recur. Sahitana (talk) 19:48, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- But what if another outbreak happens? The possibility of it happening again could not be left out. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 05:14, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose As per the user above my statement, really ^^. There is a point there that we now deem this more as 'COVID-19' and it is a more reliable name than 'coronavirus'. However, as the user above me also stated, majority of the effects were being felt in 2020. Personally think that we should remain with the current name and after all of this is at least over, then we could perhaps have another discussion about naming, but adding the year(s) is better to signify which pandemic as this could happen again. Typhoon2013 (talk) 08:32, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Just to add in, with me still opposing, as long as both titles are recognised in the opening statements too. As for instance with this, as long as in the opening line could have something as, "also known as the COVID-19 pandemic (or 2019-2X coronavirus pandemic". Typhoon2013 (talk) 08:45, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I would certainly support changing the title to "2020 Coronavirus pandemic". After all, although the disease existed in 2019, it only became a pandemic in 2020. Similarly, if it is declared to no longer be a pandemic by the relevant authorities before the end of the year, I think people will still think of it as the "2020 pandemic" even if there are minor aftershocks in coming years, as there usually are for major pandemics. 31.53.12.152 (talk) 09:25, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support per nom. Seems more specific and natural. I don't think that the concern of the "19" not reflecting the time period of the pandemic is a particular issue, as the 19 in COVID-19 is simply a component of the name of the disease, and shouldn't be taken to imply anything in particular about the time period of this pandemic as a whole (the original choice in relation to the year of emergence of the disease is a separate matter). BlackholeWA (talk) 12:24, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Edit to note - "2019-20 COVID-19 pandemic" also sounds okay to me if people really want the years. BlackholeWA (talk) 12:30, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Comment "COVID-19" is the official name of the disease and its pandemic should be named "COVID-19 pandemic". But in some ways "coronavirus pandemic" is more acceptable to the general public. Peter Wu (2019) 13:12, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose Despite WHO acknowledged the pandemic as "COVID-19", most of the worst effects were witnessed in 2020 and it won't be accurate to rename it as COVID-19 pandemic. The current title 2019-20 coronavirus pandemicis very clear to the viewers and certain that the current pandemic originated in 2019 and the worst effects are witnessed in 2020. Abishe (talk) 13:23, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- COVID-19 stands for "COronaVIrus Disease 2019". The disease emerged in 2019. If it were called COVIP-19 then you might have a point, but it's not. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:32, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Neutral per all reasons by users. Whether it will move the name of the article or not, I have to play safe to vote neutral and the majority votes will be the result. Movies Time (talk) 13:43, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support, coronavirus is a type of virus where there are lots of different viruses making up this family typing. MERS, SARS and flu viruses being a handful of them. The particular virus in question is SARS-2 which causes the Covid-19 disease. It is this disease which the pandemic has been called for. The media latched on to the term coronavirus while the WHO came up with a name for this strand and the disease it causes. Furthermore, a pandemic was not really declared fully until 2020 so the the article's original title makes little sense. → Lil-℧niquԐ1 - (Talk) - 14:48, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support in addition to being more concise and aligning with the COVID-19 WikiProject title, it's hard to say whether this will end in 2020, plus this pandemic refers to a specific type of coronavirus. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 15:17, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support As of now, I think it is quite clear that the term "COVID-19 pandemic" is 1) more accurate than the current title, and 2) at least as commonly used as the current title, if not even more common. A quick Google search I did for "COVID-19 pandemic" yields 522,000,000 results, while "coronavirus pandemic" yields 510,000,000 results, and "2019–2020 coronavirus pandemic" yields only 354,000,000 results. Note that I have added "-wikipedia" to these search terms to exclude results related to that keyword. Masjawad99💬 15:26, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Opoose. Would support move to "Coronavirus pandemic". It is the common name and alleviates the need for a future discussion if the pandemic extends beyond the end of 2020, which it quite likely may. Ergo Sum 20:14, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support, indeed. Coltsfan (talk) 21:13, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support, the last fortnight has finally bought it fairly clearly into the majority usage in media, and then common, usage. Nosebagbear (talk) 22:48, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Support Everyone just knows it as the Coronavirus, so i support the name Coronavirus pandemic. If another coronavirus pandemic occurs in the future, we can then just add a time period (2019-20, 2019-21, etc) to the title of this article. Pancho507 (talk) 04:42, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- I would have to question wheth you have read the proposal. Kevin McE (talk) 08:00, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- COVID-19 is an entirely separate article about the disease specifically, not the pandemic. It definitely shouldn't redirect here. Global Cerebral Ischemia (talk) 14:07, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Actually, "COVID-19" is more specific than just "coronavirus". "Coronavirus" is a broad type of viruses (one that actually includes SARS and MERS), while COVID-19 is this specific viral disease. So if your argument is that the disease name should be more specific, it would make sense to have it at COVID-19 (also, we typically name pandemics atfer the disease, not the type of virus). Paintspot Infez (talk)
- Understood, but the current title is not just "coronavirus", it is "2019–20 coronavirus pandemic", which is much more specific. Equally as specific as COVID-19, IMO. PKT(alk) 20:55, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support As others mentoned earler: More natural, more common, more specific, more concise, and more accurate.Tomeasy T C 18:19, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support More specific. PKdbz (talk) 19:11, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support Yep, it's shorter and more specific. Dyaluk08 (talk) 19:16, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- Strong oppose (both suggestions) Reputable new sources, such as The Guardian; the BBC; the New York Times; the Wall Street Journal; the Associated Press overwhelmingly use "coronavirus", not "COVID-19". I disagree with the points made removing dates since there are other epidemics (SARS, MERS) which were caused by coronaviruses (the difference between "epidemic" and "pandemic" being one of scale, and an average reader might be otherwise mislead) so we should seek to abide by both WP:COMMONNAME and the Precision criteria. 107.190.33.254 (talk) 20:46, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- These headlines from The Guardian; the BBC; the New York Times; the Wall Street Journal; the Associated Press all use COVID-19. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 21:40, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what the IP user means by 'both suggestions' as only one is under discussion here. SARS and MERS are appropriately used with epi/pandemic, as they are the names for the respective diseases: the issue is not the frequency with which the word "corovirus" is used, but the juxtaposition of 'coronavirus' with 'pandemic'. Kevin McE (talk) 23:18, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Kevin Mce: There's your suggestion to rename this to "COVID-19" (or whatever is the exact variant); and then there's another suggestion at the very top of this survey to drop the year without renaming (see comment by User:Crouch, Swale). As for the headlines, the Guardian uses "coronavirus" in their rolling update feeds; and on the page you link, everything except for that one headline is "Coronavirus" (i.e. "Coronavirus"; "Coronavirus explained"; "... UK"; "... around the world" - you get the point). The BBC seems to be using COVID-19 to refer to the disease; but on their homepage (which I linked) it's very clearly "Coronavirus pandemic". NYT: "We are providing free access to the most important news and useful guidance on the coronavirus outbreak". I'll spare examples for the others since it is the same outcome. So essentially my point is that both variants might come up in different article headlines and such, but the term used for overall coverage is much more frequently "coronavirus" than "COVID-19". 107.190.33.254 (talk) 01:07, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- The only suggestion being discussed in this thread is the headline one: if Crouch, Swale wishes to start another RM, that is up to him/her. Several people have presented google counts that are so close as to show that there is no overwhelming predominance of either, and so we should consider that WP:COMMONNAME is not a simple count, 52-48 is sufficient to mess everything up, referendum. I'll quote it again: "When there is no single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic by these sources, editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best by considering these criteria directly." So given the lack of a decisive count, or even of consistency in the publications you cite, do you have an argument based on the main principles of WP:TITLE, which recognisability, naturalness, precision, conciseness and consistency? Kevin McE (talk) 10:57, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- FWIW, there are a few comments saying "support change to 'Coronavirus pandemic'" or something of a similar nature. Back to the main topic: a simple count of google search results is not a definitive criteria, see WP:GOOGLETEST. A search on google trends (comparison here) also shows that "coronavirus" is still the preferred term worldwide (by nearly a factor of 2 to 1) when compared with "covid". A search for the terms with "pandemic" appended is even more lopsided. In any case, even if we were to, for a moment, agree that these results might be inconclusive, my point that it's the term favoured by reliable sources, as shown above, stands. Is there any new sources which you have found which uses "COVID-19" for it's main page coverage in the fashion that I have shown above? Popularity is not just a simple headcount.
- The other criteria where "COVID-19" might otherwise outperform is precision (if you intend that articles about diseases be named after the disease), though then again that's not universal, for example Influenza pandemic which is named after the Influenza virus and not the common name for the condition (though whether that is the correct title or not is an open question), and in any case both options, (i.e. "2019-20 coronavirus pandemic" being the other one) are unambiguous so I don't see a clear winner. The difference in conciseness between "COVID-19" and "Coronavirus" is 3 characters, not a very major difference, unlike say if the title under discussion was "Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 pandemic". I don't think there's any difference for the other criteria, consistency of course being the minor exception that if we change to "COVID-19" we have to rename every article, but that can be done non-controversially by a bot. So, if we disregard popularity (which is still for coronavirus instead of covid), both alternatives are effectively tied; so there is no reason to change yet (i.e. if anything, WP should follow, not anticipate, a - possibly WP:CRYSTAL? - change in the status quo). 107.190.33.254 (talk) 16:21, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support I put the most weight on WP:COMMONNAME unless the most common name is factually wrong or ambiguous. I suspect "COVID-19" has become more common than "coronavirus" based on what I've seen. And since there has only been one COVID-19 pandemic, the years are not needed. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 20:59, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose The title is the least important part of this article. The naming is accurate - it is a pandemic spreading from 2019 into 2020. If, God forbid, we have to consider the pandemic in 2021, then an article name change could be required. For now, and for the last time, the current title is fine. Please think about the article, not the set dressing. doktorb wordsdeeds 23:47, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- "And for the last time"...Since when has one editor had final say on article names? And totally missing the main point, which is not primarily the year but the misnaming of the pandemic after a loose group of viruses, rather than the disease. Kevin McE (talk) 00:47, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support Current title doesn't specify the virus strain, making it ambiguous if future coronavirus-related outbreaks were to occur. Also, getting rid of the years from the title would be beneficial for two reasons: 1) The WHO officially recognized this as a pandemic in 2020, and having 2019 in the title would confuse readers; 2) There is a possibility that this pandemic might last beyond 2020, which would warrant the current title to be repeatedly changed. Tomatoexpress (talk) 00:25, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support per above. Sawol (talk) 03:46, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Strongly Oppose, as I consider it disruptive. WP:COMMONNAME doesn't really help us here either, this seems to be an exception. Non-Wikipedians wanting information about the pandemic are comparatively more likely to type "Coronavirus pandemic" into Wikipedia's search bar, (redirecting them to this article), than they are to type "COVID-19 Pandemic" into the search bar. Referring to the disease as "Coronavirus" has become the norm for general citizens, whilst scientists and the media tend to refer to it as "COVID-19". Not sure how well my opinions will be received by everyone (this seems to be a contentious issue) but here goes nothing. Sean Stephens (talk) 06:06, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- You say that COMMONNAME doesn't help us here (I agree, counts that are not filtered to specialist sites seem very close, and WP:COMMONNAME defers to the 5 other principles anyway) and then base your argument entirely on COMMONNAME. Kevin McE (talk) 10:57, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Appreciate your perspective, but I have to point out that your claim about what wikipedians are likely to type in the search bar is offered without evidence and completely contradicted by google search results; "COVID-19 pandemic" gives me >20 million more results than "coronavirus pandemic." This is not a trivial discrepancy. Global Cerebral Ischemia (talk) 14:00, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I have read from those supporting the move that COVID-19 is more common. However, as several people have shown here with links, almost all media favour coronavirus over COVID-19, even if usage is mixed. Can someone please present some evidence that COVID-19 is preferred by any media or news site? Otherwise I think it is wrong to use Wikipedia:COMMONNAME as an argument for the move. Vpab15 (talk) 11:38, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Not correct. As has been stated multiple times, "COVID-19 pandemic" turns up more search results than "coronavirus pandemic" (> 20 million more for me). Global Cerebral Ischemia (talk) 13:56, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Neutral I am only concerned about that visitors will find the information. Since both names are roughly equally common, it should be fine as long as redirect links are used. David A (talk) 12:52, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment to the opposers – I think this article should be renamed COVID-19 pandemic (or coronavirus pandemic) without the mention of the year until there will be another COVID-19 (or any kind of corona disease) pandemic. --Soumyabrata talk contribs subpages 15:02, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support COVID-19 (or Covid-19) has become the common name, and it is technically more correct here since this article is about the disease, not the virus. -- MelanieN (talk) 15:19, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, you are perfectly right: It's not only COVID-19, which should be common nowawdays, but also "Covid-19", "covid-19", "COVID 19", "COVID 2019" etc. dropping the "19" more and more. Only few people mind that "COVID" names the disease, but not the virus. No one ever explained to me why it is not CoViD. But all this misspelling makes me doubt that COVID-19 is used more precisely than coronavirus. --Traut (talk) 17:53, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Given that there is no term "corona" separate from "coronavirus" in this field, there is absolutely no reason why there would be a lower case 'o' followed by a capital 'v'. As to the derivation of the name, it has been given several times already in this thread. Kevin McE (talk) 18:58, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- So I'm biased by a mother language which does use upper case characters not only for headlines, but for Nouns (z.B. StVZO, GmbH) - see SoHo, WiFi, PoE, LiDAR, It's the Corona Virus Disease, but it's not abbreviated CVD-19. --Traut (talk) 20:45, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Strong oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Coronavirus is the name that is used by the media and the common populace, COVID is relatively uncommon. This will just be moved back in a few weeks because the current title is already something that is in mass usage. Swordman97 talk to me 17:01, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Also, this RM is seriously disruptive. Please at least try to get some form of mass support and remember that this article has had more than 10 RM already, there is no need for this. Swordman97 talk to me 17:10, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- One RM in 36 days is not disruptive. Please suggest how one gets support if not by proposing change? And by what criteria do you consider a c3:1 majority in a large RM discussion not to be mass support.
- COMMONNAME states that Wikipedia "generally prefers the name that is most commonly used ... as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above." In other words, COMMONNAME is useful in so far as, and only in so far as, it ensures compliance with the five WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, not in and of itself. It is clear that there are two terms which vie closely with each other in terms of recognisability, but when precision, conciseness, and consistency with the decision of the WikiProject, there can only be one outcome that fulfills our naming criteria. Kevin McE (talk) 18:58, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Supports currently outnumber opposes 68 to 24. How much more mass support do you want? --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 20:50, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Weak Support Personally, I think 2019-2020 Coronavirus Pandemic is a preferable title, but the dispute should no doubt be centered entirely on WP:COMMONNAME. However, when looking at search terms, there are some initially confounding results. On one hand, COVID-19 Pandemic receives 600 million results while Coronavirus pandemic recieves 400 million. However, as per Google Trends, Coronavirus pandemic is searched much more often than COVID-19 pandemic. I presume that this means that the public name for most of the population, who look up the term, is Coronavirus pandemic, while news media and other authoritative sources, whose results populate the google search, prefer the more scientific name of COVID-19 pandemic. So essentially, this seems to be a conflict between RS and public opinion. To resolve this, WP:COMMONNAME says it "generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)". Therefore, I would have to support changing the name as per Wikipedia policy. Zoozaz1 (talk) 20:39, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support as Common name does not apply here as the general term Coronavirus is a group of viruses and should not be used for the disease. COVID-19 is the proper name for this disease. Lochglasgowstrathyre (talk) 21:55, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- This article is about the pandemic, not the disease. The "coronavirus" group of viruses is what caused the pandemic, and "coronavirus" is what the pandemic is generally known as. By the way for disclosure I previously vote!d oppose under a different IP address, which is why I have not voted with this IP address. 109.158.239.84 (talk) 00:08, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- I meant that the name of the illness is COVID-19 and that was why the illness name should be used for the pandemic rather than the name of the group of which Sars-Cov-2 is part of. Lochglasgowstrathyre (talk) 02:15, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment A non-admin user attempted to close this discussion (in favour of "move") at 23:17, 2 May 2020. I undid the closing of the discussion, as I believe it is too close to be called by a non-admin, and the minimum period of seven days has not yet passed. 109.158.239.84 (talk) 23:30, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose. The current title is simple and easy to understand. COVID-19 is jargon. Note that, for example, the following all use "coronavirus":
- Coronavirus Preparedness and Response Supplemental Appropriations Act, 2020
- Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act
- Families First Coronavirus Response Act
- White House Coronavirus Task Force
- Coronavirus Act 2020
- And, as we've seen in the news, many people don't even know the "19" stands for 2019. — the Man in Question (in question) 23:51, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- The second of those legal documents pairs 'pandemic' with the name of the disease fifteen times,and the name of the virus once. Uses of the word 'coronavirus' that are not explicity linked to the naming of the pandemic are a red herring as far as this discussion is concerned. And if people don't know something (whether it is the derivation of the name COVID-19 or the naming conventions for pandemics, then what better place to inform them than in an encyclopaedia? Kevin McE (talk) 11:27, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment COVID-19 Pandemic should the final name and "some" oppose who keep deleting the "Support" votes are causing RM to be disruptive just like the previous ones need to stop or ANI is needed. Regice2020 (talk) 00:42, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support: WP:COMMONNAME has been abandoned on many articles for the sake of compromises and being inoffensive (and I don't mean inoffensive towards people, but rather inoffensive towards tastes). The 2019-2020 is awkward, it wasn't a pandemic until 2020. "Coronavirus" is rarely used, while "COVID-19" is about as common now as simply "corona" while still being precise and medically correct. This move should be made. Prinsgezinde (talk) 01:43, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support: Even songs have already been made about COVID-19. It's as much a common name now as "the coronavirus". --Amakuha (talk) 03:17, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Funny you mention that video, because in the description it says "coronavirus pandemic", not COVID-19 pandemic. Vpab15 (talk) 09:28, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- No it does not. Kevin McE (talk) 11:43, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- First, quoting from the video description: "American televangelist Kenneth Copeland, who recently claimed that the coronavirus pandemic will be “over much sooner you think”, [...]" Second, one song being titled like this is not a particularly convincing source (a quick google search reveals plenty of results for songs including "coronavirus" in their title). 107.190.33.254 (talk) 18:36, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support nom on all 3 points. Both "Coronavirus" and "COVID-19" seem common at this point, and thus I tend to default to point 1 about naming it after the specific disease. I tend to agree with Global Cerebral Ischemia's point from April 29 about additional waves and use of the year. ECTran71 (talk) 08:02, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support The pandemic has been the result of the disease - COVID-19 and not the virus - coronavirus which causes it. It is apt to rename the article. We can also look at the past outbreaks, years are rarely mentioned in the titles, the name of the disease suffices. Shawnqual (talk) 10:13, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose for now. They may be a second outbreak. Ythlev (talk) 13:52, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- As mentioned above, any subsequent waves of infection would be considered part of the same ongoing pandemic (which could last for over a year or more), and thus be included in the same article. The pandemic will not end until either an effective vaccine is developed or herd immunity is reached. Global Cerebral Ischemia (talk) 14:20, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose in order to better inform the public. Google Search Trends indicate that "Coronavirus" is searched for more than "COVID-19" by a factor of 10 [1]. Yes, COVID-19 is the scientific name, but our job, fundamentally, is to ensure that the average person who wants to get information can easily access it on a free encyclopedia. The google data indicates that we will connect a factor of 10x more people to quality information if we use "coronavirus" rather than "COVID-19". Nmurali02 (talk) 14:15, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- You're comparing apples to oranges. The issue is the search results for "coronavirus pandemic" vs "COVID-19 pandemic." The latter shows over 20 million more results for me on google search. And obviously, the former comparison is invalid because the word "coronavirus" encompasses all coronaviruses (including SARS, MERS, and those that cause the common cold) and has existed longer than the word "COVID-19." Global Cerebral Ischemia (talk) 14:20, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- If we're comparing "coronavirus pandemic" to "COVID-19 pandemic", the former still wins on Google Trends by a factor of at least 4:1. 109.158.239.84 (talk) 16:04, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Our naming policy is based on what appears in reliable sources, not people's search box entries. Kevin McE (talk) 16:17, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Don't worry, this isn't a problem. Nobody (not even uninformed people not knowing the term COVID-19) will miss the article, as we will, of course, leave redirects in place catching all possible title variants and leading to the technically correct title. It is, however, highly desirable for an encyclopedia to use proper nomenclature in its headline. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 14:30, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support Coronavirus covers a large range of diseases. Eladar (chat with me) 14:35, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose COVID-19 doesn't sound as good as coronavirus, we have already changed the name of this article two times, first 2019-20 Wuhan coronavirus outbreak, then to 2019-20 coronavirus pandemic and now 2019-20 coronavirus pandemic so why do we need to change it again? Couldn't we spend our time improving exiting and creating new articles rather than spending our time discussing a name change? Frontier Place (talk) 16:19, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- "It just doesn't sound as good" is hardly an argument, nor is "we've already moved it". The only reason we moved it IS TO BE MORE ACCURATE: the first time was because it was no longer just in Wuhan, and the second was because it was no longer just an outbreak but a pandemic. The current title was the result of an awkward consensus only formed because there wasn't a real official name yet. If we keep it at the current title but the pandemic continues, we'd have to move the page every single year. The proposed title is a good stable title we could land on so we can stop the seemingly-constant move requests (which aren't that constant). If you don't care about "spending our time discussing a name change", then you don't have to participate. And, improving existing articles and deciding on the best title for people to find them don't have to be mutually exclusive. Paintspot Infez (talk) 00:10, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose I'm married to a doctor. "COVID-19" is the diagnose of her patients, but "corona" is what's hit our city. I don't buy any reasoning deeming this natural, pragmatic and context-sensitive use of language "incorrect".
- To those saying that it's illogical to name a pandemic after a group of viruses, well, the disease is itself named from the group of viruses, so we will have that anyway. We can choose between having "coronavirus" in a technical, abstruse acronym or spelling it out.
- Is "coronavirus" too unspecific? Sometimes, but definitely not in the context of "2019-20 coronavirus pandemic". Thats quite enough of specificity, if you ask me.
- – St.nerol (talk) 16:59, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Strong oppose - having the years is useful, and a potential future mass-rename to 2019-21 can easily be done by bot if necessary. Furthermore, coronavirus is a simpler and less jargony term than COVID-19, and let's be honest, no one is going to think the 2019-20 article is referring to SARS, MERS, animal viruses, or the common cold. Additionally, coronavirus is still the dominant term in common use. According to that data, coronavirus + corona is much more searched than covid + covid 19 + covid-19. CJK09 (talk) 17:29, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Just as @Ergo Sum: and @Pancho507: above I would support a move to "Coronavirus pandemic". – St.nerol (talk) 18:01, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Weak oppose as proposed (but still support Coronavirus pandemic per my comment above) since "COVID-19" is an abbreviation for Coronavirus disease 2019. Given "coronavirus" is used a lot and most readers know it (and if anything might not know "COVID-19 or at least how to type it) I don't think WP:NCA is satisfied. Most sources that I'm aware of use "Coronavirus" but put "COVID-19" in brackets or use it after introducing with "coronavirus"[14][15][16][17]. When I Google "Covid-19" most of the results include "Coronavirus" in the title. That said 9/11 conspiracy theories does use the more concise, abbreviated title but I don't see sufficient evidence that the abbreviated name is used overwhelmingly to make it appropriate. Since there has only been 1 pandemic so far commonly known as "Coronavirus" I don't think we need the year. The 2002–2004 SARS outbreak wasn't classified as a pandemic and doesn't appear to be commonly described as "Coronavirus" anyway. Also I'd note that for that one "SARS" is probably used (rather than 2002–2004 severe acute respiratory syndrome outbreak because that one was a 3 word name while this one is only a 1 word term (since 2019 isn't that commonly used for the disease its self). Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:10, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support WP:COMMONNAME Clearly states that "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources". That's why we have cardiac arrest and myocardial infarction instead of "heart attack". Hddty (talk) 00:08, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose COVID-19 may be a "common name", but "Coronavirus pandemic" is not a *uncommon* name. It is also the proper name. Also, this article is about the pandemic, not the disease itself, so the name would need to be "COVID-19 pandemic". There's no reason to change the name away from the proper name, when the proper name is no more difficult to use than a shortened version. Natureium (talk) 00:25, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support Much more concise. Hkbusfan (talk) 00:55, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
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