The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. There are many possible suggestions, but not one that has a large degree of support. For the Brits, perhaps cafe redirecting to coffeehouse is confusing, but then again, having tyre as a disambiguation page is as well (and Americans are confused that it doesn't go straight to Tyre, Lebanon). I don't see any proof that cafe's other possible uses outweigh coffeehouse; there's no consensus here. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 16:49, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cafe (disambiguation) → Cafe – Cafe and Café redirect to Coffeehouse, a usage that is not consistent for the British. For the British a cafe (or café) may refer an establishment described in Greasy spoon or Truck stop; Caff and Transport cafe already redirect to these. I propose this disambiguation page as the primary page for Cafe, and redirect Café here, and then expand the page to include mention of Greasy spoon, Truck stop, Caff and Transport cafe. --Relisted. -- tariqabjotu 02:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC) SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:46, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment "coffeehouse" is misnamed, it should be coffee shop (restaurant) or cafe (restaurant), since it isn't about coffee importing buisinesses (coffeehouses), nor those that primarily sell coffee grounds and coffee beans retail (coffee shops). -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 12:07, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support but propose alternative solution. Since cafe seems to be a broad concept which could be disambiguated to a whole bunch of more specific articles (e.g.: Greasy spoon, Diner, Tea house, Juice bar, Mess, Fast food restaurant, even Cafeteria) and there are already plenty of unrelated entries at Cafe (disambiguation), I propose reverting Café to the original article before only a couple of editors decided to merge it with and re-direct it to Coffeehouse (though the content didn't seem to be merged). That seemed to be a well written article (with, maybe, room for expansion) on the senses of the term in different countries, etymology and the different types of cafe. As I see it a cafe is any establishment (usually public) who primarily serve non-alcoholic beverages and snacks (and/or simple cooked meals) to eat or drink on the premises. So, anything that isn't a pub, a restaurant (with a large menu and waiters) or a take-away could be described as a cafe. 2.220.201.218 (talk) 12:46, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • See Talk:Café#Suggest merging this article into coffeehouse and Talk:Coffeehouse#Merge with Café for previous discussions. 2.220.201.218 (talk) 14:31, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• I support 2.220.201.218's proposal. "Cafe" is a single concept with varying expressions of the concept. This is something like breakfast, which is served very differently in different countries, but remains a single overarching concept capable of being discussed in an article. bd2412 T 12:42, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What do you feel is the "single overarching concept"? Some cafes sell mainly coffee, others mainly alcohol, others quick cheap food. In South Africa a cafe is a corner shop. In some cultures café is a serving of coffee. Some dictionary definitions: [1], [2], [3], [4]. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:27, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Of the three reliable sources among those references, the definitions list as their first option some variation of "a small or inexpensive restaurant or coffee bar, serving light meals and refreshments". That is the primary topic of the term. To say that this is ambiguous is to say that restaurant is ambiguous, because there are a wide variety of restaurants serving a wide variety of foods. bd2412 T 13:32, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. The old Café article is essentially a disambiguation page. Though the opening sentence attempts to define it in a meaning that not everyone would agree with ("an establishment that focuses on serving coffee"). Café / cafe mean different things to different people. Which is why a disambiguation page is required. Once on the page the reader can quickly find the page they want. Most of the old Café article is an attempt to define the various meanings of café / cafe: "In the United States, "cafe" may refer to an informal restaurant..." / "In the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland a café (with the acute accent) is similar to those in other European countries, while a cafe (without acute accent, and often pronounced "caff") is more likely to be a greasy spoon style eating place" / "In the Netherlands and Belgium, a café is the equivalent of a bar, and also sells alcoholic beverages." etc. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:10, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. If the word "café" can mean that many things, then there's no way we can restore the old article, which was trying to do too many things at once. We're not supposed to have articles about words. Keeping the various meanings of "café" covered by separate articles is a good application of natural disambiguation. I agree that there's no primary topic for Cafe, so both that and Café should point to the disambiguation page. Ibadibam (talk) 23:28, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment we have quite a few articles about words, what we're not supposed to have are articles that are just definitions (dictions) ; ie. American (word) -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 02:28, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A separate article wouldn't just be about a word, the various meanings mentions in this discussion are different types of the same concept ("café"), as is anything in between. Peter James (talk) 18:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Whatever the scoping/titling problems with other articles, the fact remains that the primary meaning for "cafe", by a sizable margin, is the small restaurant serving coffee and beverages. None of the other items on Cafe (disambiguation) come even close to that. Turning cafe into a disambiguation page just because we're unsure of terminology is the worst solution. The title and scope should be discussed on Talk:Coffeehouse, not here. No such user (talk) 11:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No. Not outside America. Outside America, cafe means a variety of things - in Europe it tends to mean a place serving alcohol (that may or may not also serve coffee and/or food), in the UK it means a place that serves everyday food - the common common beverage in such a place would be tea. In the UK a cafe is not associated with a coffee house except historically - see classiccafes.co.uk. For France see The World of the Paris Café where it talks of red wine and other alcohol as being the drink of choice; and here, and here. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 00:48, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support something. There is probably some cleanup needed that goes past this discussion. A cafe (use whatever spelling you like) is not a coffee shop. I have no idea what a coffeehouse is. Maybe the solution is to split out an article on the place that serves food with beverages. But is that a restaurant? This is not just a UK problem but a US one. The current situation is confusing at best and wrong at worst. Yea, a greasy spoon is probably a type of cafe, but what kind of greasy spoon does not serve hamburgers. So underlying this discussion are some article issues. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - I doubt even British lorry drivers (truck drivers) would expect to find a description of a motorway layby Greasy Spoon at a Wikipedia article on Café. There should be an article at Café which simply describes and informs about a Café. When we go to a café, we do not need a disambiguation page, we do not need to invent a new name, a café is a café is a café. Search [a café is a] in Google Books and we get sensible entries like this:

Gini Anding - Witness from the Café 2010 - Page ix "Literally, a café is a coffee house, originally established to serve coffee at small tables. Today when a café also serves food, its little round tables set it apart from all other establishments, such as bistros, brasseries, and restaurants."

This little clippet seems to have more sense than our current article titling. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:54, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

" I doubt even British lorry drivers (truck drivers) would expect to find a description of a motorway layby Greasy Spoon at a Wikipedia article on Café." That is exactly what they would expect, and why I have suggested this move. For a British lorry driver a "cafe" is what Americans call a Greasy spoon. It's worth taking a look at the Wikipedia article to see what it says, and the lead picture it uses. In the UK we don't use the phrase "greasy spoon", we say "cafe". classiccafes.co.uk is a useful guide. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 00:48, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have started a unmerge discussion based on comments above at Talk:Coffeehouse#Demerge. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, as indicated by No such user. ENeville (talk) 18:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cafe meaning coffee house only applies in America. Elsewhere it not the primary topic. See some of the links I have provided for No such user. We are misinforming people if we tell them that all around the world cafe = coffee house. I am not suggesting that cafe redirects to Greasy spoon or Bar - I am suggesting it become a disambiguation page so people can find what they are looking for easier without the shock of landing in the wrong place. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 00:48, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.