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Season naming convention (continued)

Discussion

I would like to formally revisit Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Archive 16#Season naming convention, as I recently brought up the idea of season naming convention towards the end of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television#Article name for two-part episodes with different titles. As per my recent comments at the latter discussion, I completely agree that the WIkiProject Television's disambiguation format does not match Wikipedia's policies and guidelines on disambiguation. I would thus propose that the title formats be updated to use a colon format, like so:

This would allow us to title the latter two articles in the same format ("([disambiguator] TV series): Season [#]"), and in the same format as their parent articles (MacGyver (2016 TV series) and The Office (American TV series) respectively), as while we currently use "(American season 7)" [added: and not "(American TV series, season 7)"], we don't use "(2016 season 1)" but rather "(2016 TV series, season 1)". What are people's thoughts on this? Given the scope of the suggested change, it'll likely need to go to RFC and/or WP:VPPOL [added: and if this discussion dies out like the first discussion linked, I'll happily take this prodecure to either platform myself]. -- /Alex/21 08:30, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Questions:
  1. Did you mean 24 (TV series): Season 1 or 24: Season 1?
  2. Why colon and not a normal sentence - The Office (American TV series) season 1?
I might have more later, but in general, I agree that the way we disambiguate season pages isn't correct. --Gonnym (talk) 09:01, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Concerning the first question, I meant the latter, correct. The 24 in 24: Season 1 would not require disambiguation, because there is only one television series titled 24, but the MacGyver in MacGyver: Season 1 requires disambiguation, because it could mean either the season that aired(/series that premiered) in 1985 or 2016; that is, there are two first-seasons for a series titled MacGyver. On the second question, I just feel that the colon format is neater; it separates the show and the season, still performing some form of disambiguation, and the capitalized S just seems... nicer(?), for want of a better word. I mean, that's not to say I oppose your alternate suggestion, I'd absolutely support that as well, if that's what the majority agreed upon. -- /Alex/21 09:12, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
A colon implies these are subtitles, which in 95% of cases they are not. I do agree that there should be a naming convention that is more sensible here. I tend toward being a fan of natural description titles such as season 1 of 24 (TV series). --Izno (talk) 12:53, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I left a similar comment at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Archive 15#RfC about double parenthetical disambiguation which may be another point of interesting discussion to read. --Izno (talk) 12:58, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I'd very much disagree with listing the season first. If I type in "Season 1 of" into the search box, I would get thousands of results for thousands of shows, all likely unrelated to what I want. If I type in "[Show]: Season" into the search box, I'd get results that are all directly related to the season page I'm looking for, and quite likely the exact page I'm searching for listed almost immediately. As commented on in the first "Season naming convention" discussion, it's both worse as per WP:CONCISE and as a searchable option. -- /Alex/21 13:01, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I've already said what I wanted to say on that point in the earlier RFC, so I'll decline to reply on these points. You'll get a bold oppose from me on the proposed titling as set out in your OP in some future RFC per my first response here. --Izno (talk) 13:05, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
The previous RFC wasn't in regards to this particular suggestion, it regarded double disambiguation. You made a suggestion there and received opposition there, you made the same suggestion at the linked discussion and received opposition there, you've made the same suggestion here and received opposition here. Refusing to compromise or discuss is not very collaborative or contributing of you, I'm sorry to say. -- /Alex/21 13:08, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
So would we then have double-colon article titles like Law & Order: Special Victims Unit: Season 21? That looks awkward to me. Is there any reason we can't do pseudo-subpages like Wikiquote does (wikiquote:Law & Order: Special Victims Unit/Season 20)? -- Netoholic @ 13:27, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
The colon suggestion isn't set in stone, it was only a suggestion to start off a discussion. (At least it wouldn't be triple-colon'ed... If we went with Gonnym's suggestion, it would be Law & Order: Special Victims Unit season 21. However, with psuedo-subpages, I believe that would violate #3 of "Disallowed uses" from WP:SUB: Using subpages for permanent content that is meant to be part of the encyclopedia. -- /Alex/21 13:33, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Right, its not a "real" subpage - it would just be using our guideline to use the "/" character as the separator for seasons. There are tons of articles that have the "/" character in use, such as N/A. -- Netoholic @ 13:40, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Because N/A is an actual abbreviation that properly uses "/", it's not a separator. That's not the "N" page with "A" being a subpage. There's a difference between "/" being part of the title and "/" being a subpage. In the TV case, it would act as a subpage, and we're trying to stick to Wikipedia's existing policies and guidelines by moving away from bracketed season disambiguators; moving to another modified version of an existing guideline isn't the fix - it would be considered a subpage from the wider community, given that it is a subtopic of a wider topic and thus existing at a subpage of a wider page. It would also cause faulty links on the talk page of all season pages; see Talk:N/A, and how it recommends we return to "Talk:N". -- /Alex/21 13:47, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
If any change is made to season naming (which I'm not necessarily is correct as is), I would be more in favor of Gonnym's second point, doing something like a "sentence" without a colon. That to me, like Izno said, implies subtitles. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 14:51, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Agree that I've never understood the parentheticals for this purpose, but instead of a colon, I'd propose a comma. Something like "24 (TV series), season 1" or "Lost, season 3." -- Wikipedical (talk) 16:36, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

So, here we have two guidelines that are "against" each other: Disambiguation and Naming conventions (television). Why should the latter be the one to change? Can't the latter simply be an exception to the former? El Millo (talk) 17:39, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

FTR, I agree with you, and I don't think there's anything wrong with our current "parenthetical" method to season disambiguation, and am likely to oppose any proposed change to it. There's no reason to "fix" something that is already working... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:19, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
The "U.S./American" and "UK/British" disambiguation was something that was already working, that ended up being "fixed", because it went against wider guidelines. Exactly the same situation here: something that's been used for years and works, but goes against the wider guideline. To answer [w]hy should the latter be the one to change, because the latter is a subset of the former. Thousands of articles are effected by the latter; millions of articles by the former. -- /Alex/21 23:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
@Alex 21: the change in WP:DAB would be to simply add that WP:MOSTV is an exception. El Millo (talk) 23:24, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Why make an exception, when we can allow it to conform? We could have allowed the "U.S./American" and "UK/British" disambiguation to be an exception, but we made that conform. How are these two situations different? -- /Alex/21 23:27, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
My main problem is with the 24 (TV series), season 1 style –with or without commas–. ¿Has something like this, with a parenthetical disambiguation in the middle of a title, ever been done in Wikipedia? ¿Do we have another example of titles like this one that already exist? El Millo (talk) 23:36, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
A parenthetical disambiguation in the middle of a title? List of MacGyver (2016 TV series) episodes, List of Mistresses (British TV series) episodes, List of Oz (TV series) characters, and all other related LoE/LoC articles where the parent series requires disambiguation. -- /Alex/21 23:38, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Oh. Well, no qualms then. But I'm still doubtul of the necessity of this change, and quite agree with IJBall's comment here below. El Millo (talk) 23:46, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Although, in the case of 24 (TV series), season 1, that wouldn't be needed. 24, season 1 would be enough. There's only one television series titled 24. 24 (season 1) → 24, season 1, it's just removing the incorrect brackets. -- /Alex/21 23:49, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I know, that was just an example to refer to all TV series. El Millo (talk) 00:00, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Fair enough. This is something that can be clarified through the RFC anyways, and what format we're taking. -- /Alex/21 00:01, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Except it wasn't working (or was starting not to) because of "U.S." vs. "US" wars. But it's true that that change actually put WP:NCTV inline with other projects like FILM and BIO. OTOH, this proposed change just seems like "make-work", for a system that is already working quite well, and has been for a long time. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:42, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I wouldn't consider that situation a "war", there were a few disagreements. Same case here, there's disagreements that the current situation does or doesn't work. This change will put NCTV into line with the correct format of disambiguation. Just because it's been this way for years, doesn't make it correc, it makes it old. Clearly it wasn't working overly well, if there needed to be an RFC for double disambiguation; changing to the suggested format removes any need for that at all.
For example, with The Flash (2014 TV series) and The Flash (season 1), the current setup implies that these are two separate media entities: a 2014 TV series titled The Flash, and a Season 1 titled The Flash. That is not the case. Moving it to a comma-case will remove this incorrect disambiguation. -- /Alex/21 23:48, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Overall I think this is a solution looking for a problem... while parenthetical disambiguation is not ideal, it fits best here. My next choice after parentheses would be a comma, since then "season N" or "series N" looks less like a subtitle and we could save colons for actual subtitles. So Name of Show, series 1 or Name of Show, season 3. And I guess Name of Show (Canadian TV series), season 2. That also avoids having two disambiguators within the parentheses.
So:
YMMV —Joeyconnick (talk) 18:31, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Also also, for some levity based on possibly the worse-named show I've ever encountered, god help us if we ever have to do season articles for High School Musical: The Musical: The Series if we change to colons:
  • High School Musical: The Musical: The Series: season 1
Ahhhhhh! —Joeyconnick (talk) 18:35, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I'm seeing a lot more support for commas over colons, and that's something that I can agree with, as it reads as a actual title, and still allows for identical disambiguation of the parent series *such as in the case of MacGyver and The Office, where the disambiguation changes based on the base year/country disambiguation).
All in all, it'll absolutely need to be taken to a definitive RFC, in the same manner as the "U.S./American" and "UK/British" disambiguation RFC. I'll wait a couple more days for some more views, and then open it. I've already got it typed up with three questions (format (5 options, plus status quo), capitalization and disambiguation). -- /Alex/21 02:26, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Glad there's more support for commas. The layout of User:Joeyconnick's examples above remains my preference. -- Wikipedical (talk) 18:00, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
The title should also take into account the associated category name if we are already fixing these. Category:The Office (American TV series), season 1 episodes still seems a bit off while without the comma it reads better Category:The Office (American TV series) season 1 episodes. For reference Category:The Office (American season 1) episodes. --Gonnym (talk) 18:25, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
While I think this may be searching for a solution for a problem that doesn't exist, if there is that need or consensus to move away from the parenthetical format, I will note the comma version is supported by various court reported sets, eg List of United States Supreme Court cases, volume 591. But alternatively, you could do "Season 1 of (show)" whhich would make any additional national/remake disambiguation easy to add to the end. --Masem (t) 18:48, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
It's already been brought up that listing the season first is both worse as per WP:CONCISE and as a searchable option, since, as Alex21 put it, If I type in "Season 1 of" into the search box, I would get thousands of results for thousands of shows, all likely unrelated to what I want. If I type in "[Show]: Season" into the search box, I'd get results that are all directly related to the season page I'm looking for, and quite likely the exact page I'm searching for listed almost immediately El Millo (talk) 18:53, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
But on the search part, we'd still be keeping redirects (those will not go away) so that fill-in as you type will remain. --Masem (t) 19:05, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

RFC: What should the naming convention for television season articles be?

Question A : Should the naming convention for television season articles be changed from its current format, and if so, to what alternate format?

  1. Show (season 1) → Show: season 1 (colon)
  2. Show (season 1) → Show, season 1 (comma)
  3. Show (season 1) → Show season 1 (spaced)
  4. Show (season 1) → Show/season 1 (slashed)
  5. Show (season 1) → season 1 of Show (described)
  6. Alternate suggestion not given above
  7. Do not change

Question B : In the case of changing the format, should the term "season" (or related term, including "series", etc.) be capitalized or lowercased? (The options below use the colon example only for visualization.)

  1. Show, Season 1 (capitalized)
  2. Show, season 1 (lowercased)

Question C : In the case of changing the format, should the parent series always include disambiguation or only when necessary? (The options below use the colon example only for visualization.)

Example: 24 (TV series); 24 (season 1) to 24 (TV series), season 1 or 24, season 1
Example: MacGyver (2016 TV series); MacGyver (2016 TV series, season 1) to MacGyver (2016 TV series), season 1
  1. Show (show disambiguation), season 1 (always required)
  2. Show, season 1 (only when necessary)

-- /Alex/21 00:44, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television § Flesh and Blood (TV drama)

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television § Flesh and Blood (TV drama). Issue here is what to move a new article to for correct titling/disambiguation. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:57, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Potential guidleline issue, re: characters

From the 'Episode and character articles' section, it says "For characters, typically the full name is used, if known, for the title of the article except when an alias or other name is much more common."

I think this guidance is flawed – what is said would be true for WP:BLPs, but characters are fictional and these articles not real "biographies". The article/etc. should always be at the WP:COMMONNAME title, period. In other words, it should only be at the "full name" if the full name is the common name. This is directly relevant in a couple of cases I've come across lately: Cosmo Kramer vs. Kramer (Seinfeld) (I'd argue the article should be at the latter), and the redirect at Gibby Gibson which again I'd argue should be at Gibby (iCarly).

So, I'd advocate that we reword the sentence from the guideline above to say something like, "For characters, the title of the article should always conform to the character's common name." --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:27, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Magnum, P.I. § Requested move 10 December 2020

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Magnum, P.I. § Requested move 10 December 2020. TheDoctorWho (talk) 20:25, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Additional disambiguation

I'd like to revisit why this change [1] was made to the additional disambiguation section. The only discussion on this talk page I can find relevant to the proposed change was here which I don't believe ended with any proper consensus one way or the other. The change in question is now being used to ramrod through additional RMs, which are then cited as proof of consensus for this so-called preference, creating a weird sort of feedback loop. -- Calidum 13:55, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

So you're just ignoring all the RM's listed at the top of that discussion? (And there are likely others that predate those that I couldn't find.) Because that establishes the consensus. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:58, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
The RMs cannot establish a consensus that was rejected in the same discussion. -- Calidum 14:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
What are you talking about?! Guidelines should be bottom-up, not top-down. Multiple RMs have established a preference for "by country" disambig (which, BTW, does not mean it must be used in every instance – simply that it is preferred in most instances). How else do you establish "consensus" except with multiple discussions over years on the same topic. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:05, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
Calidum is spot-on. I completely agree with the observation that the edit (and some barely-attended RMs) -are- being used as a ramrod. Since the inception of this guideline, we've always acknowledged that there are two, roughly co-equal, methods of additional disambiguation using either year or country. Both are extremely valuable tools in their own way, and we should not specifically "prefer" one overall compared to the other. Sometimes, the most differentiation is done by using country (like in the case of multiple versions of a single franchise), or year (such as reboot series in the same country. Also, country distinction is becoming less and less clear over time as more productions are produced in or financed by multiple countries, and are broadcast or streamable all across the world. -- Netoholic @ 18:51, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
I think that country is generally a better disambiguator and should be preferred. To repeat my arguments from the NextStep RM: For example, Mayday (Canadian TV series) was also broadcast on Discovery Channel in my European country (and in dozens of others) since mid-2010s; I immediately learned it was Canadian from its closing credits. I would hardly be convinced to support moving it to Mayday (2003 TV series) to distinguish it from Mayday (2013 TV series), since I have no idea when the first season was recorded. I grant that there could be occasional exception, particularly when the years are far apart and the country of origin is not clear. Heck, we will soon lose the concept of "country of origin" and start disambiguating by "(Netflix series)" or such. No such user (talk) 13:55, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
A TV series can be filmed in Canada and still be an American series. See 21 Jump Street. -- Calidum 16:27, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
Again, that is determined by "country of origin" – i.e. who pays for it. Shows like that are usually still clear that they are American productions even in filmed in Canada... That said, it is already established that in cases of bi- or multi-national productions, then we do tend to disambiguate by year. But where something is filmed ≠ "country of origin" in many cases, no matter how many times IP editors tend to get confused by this. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:30, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
"Country of origin" has nothing to do with WP:NCTV#Additional disambiguation, which refers only to country of broadcast, so this whole argument is baseless. -- Netoholic @ 17:28, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
Answered in Talk:The Next Step (2013 TV series)#Requested move 21 September 2021 – please pick one location for this discussion, and stick to that. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:49, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
Proposed changes to the guideline should be discussed here and only here. You're the one splitting the discussion by using an RM to misleadingly use your "country of origin" preference when the guideline is written intentionally and clearly as "country of broadcast". -- Netoholic @ 18:09, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Group of related series

There are a group of related series on BBC television: same format, different titles - Yorkshire Walks, Winter Walks (2 series), Walking with ... (not to be confused with Walking with... about dinosaurs etc!). Same producer: Cy Chadwick; same format: a walker, superb scenery, a 360-degree camera on a selfie-stick, a drone, on-screen informative captions, interviews with people encountered, the odd poem. Editors interested in choice of titles for TV articles might like to join the discussion at Talk:Walking with... (BBC Four series). PamD 16:34, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television § Article with Non-Standard Title Disambiguation Needs Cleanup

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television § Article with Non-Standard Title Disambiguation Needs Cleanup. Discussion is about article with non-standard title disambiguation likely needing an article move to standard disambiguation under NCTV. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:09, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

This is more of an issue than I realized – would appreciate more NCTV regulars taking a look at this... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:26, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Notice of move discussion

A move discussion has been opened at Talk:Van der Valk#Requested move 4 April 2023, since the recent move to add the date of that series to the article title was reverted as undiscussed. Softlavender (talk) 10:01, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Style for name of longer work appearing a part of a series

Is a play that appears as part of a television anthology series to be considered as an "episode" of that series (and have its title displayed in "quotation marks" as a short work) or should it be considered a longer work as indicated by Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Titles of works#Major works which included Plays (including published screenplays and teleplays) as a major work? For context, this came to my attention with disagreement with Gonnym over Shadow of a Pale Horse (The United States Steel Hour). Note that Template:Infobox television episode defaults to quotation marks, so a related question if a television play is a longer work, what infobox template should be used? older ≠ wiser 11:03, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

There are (as far as I can tell) two types of television plays. Television plays which are stand-alone productions and are similar to television films. These are of the "major works" type, which means they use italics, ((Infobox television)), ((IMDb title)), etc. The other type are productions which are part of anthology television series, which means they are of the type "minor works" and should use quotation marks, ((Infobox television episode)), ((IMDb episode)), etc. Gonnym (talk) 11:09, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
It seems highly inconsistent that the same work if presented as part of an anthology series is a minor work, while that same work if produced as a standalone film or teleplay makes it a major work. An anthology series (especially in early TV history) is more a showcase for presenting standalone works than a coherent episodic series. older ≠ wiser 11:20, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
I would agree with this – standalone "plays for television" function as TV movies. But those as part of an anthology series (e.g. Playhouse 90) would function as "episodes". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:17, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
I would italicize a play just as I would italicize a serial from Doctor Who (e.g. An Unearthly Child); a serial belongs under MOS:MAJORWORK just as a play does. -- Alex_21 TALK 11:12, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
Minor works: Single episodes or plot arcs of a television series or other serial audio-visual program would indicate incorrect usage at An Unearthly Child. Gonnym (talk) 11:16, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
The italicization of serials within Doctor Who is a very solid consensus at WP:WPDW, and follows WP:WHO/MOS. -- Alex_21 TALK 11:23, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

"Wikipedia:NCT" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Wikipedia:NCT has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 15 § Wikipedia:NCT until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 07:38, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Partial disambiguation

WP:PFILM dictates that secondary-topic films with the same title should always be disambiguated from each other by year, even if one of the films is the clear primary topic, overriding WP:PDAB. WP:NCTVUS does not specify what to do in this situation, so I'm wondering what the current consensus is among WikiProject Television. I ask because I was going to move One Piece (TV series) to accommodate One Piece (2023 TV series), but then noticed a recent RM on the talk page which opposed doing so. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:44, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

See WP:INCDAB: "In individual cases consensus may determine that a parenthetically disambiguated title that is still ambiguous has a primary topic, but the threshold for identifying a primary topic for such titles is higher than for a title without parenthetical disambiguation." I believe this is the so-called "primary subtopic" exception. There are some of these out there, I think even under WP:NCFILM. If a RM discussion determines this, as it did in the case of One Piece (TV series), then you need to leave it be. There are definitely a few TV series that are "primary subtopic" cases, though I can't recall a specific one right now. Sidenote: I do find it odd that the article for the 2023 One Piece TV series doesn't seem to mention the 1999 animated series. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:17, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
Well, RMs that moved Titanic (1997 film) and Parasite (2019 film) were both overturned, partially on the grounds of PFILM. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:44, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
The (only) two currently known exceptions to WP:PFILM are Rustin (film) and Willow (film), per WP:PDABLIST. The three known cases for TV series are One Piece (TV series), The Boys (TV series) and The Office (American TV series). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 09:39, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
And Vikings (TV series). -- Alex_21 TALK 09:55, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
And Revolver (TV series), although that is a somewhat special case. There is no article devoted to the other show, but it is mentioned in the article about at least one of the actors. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:17, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
Incidentally, Rustin (film) has the same quirk as Revolver (TV series). There is no article devoted to the other Rustin film – only an article about a person who directed and co-starred in it. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:57, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
WP:PFILM gives as one example: Miracle on 34th Street (the 1947 film), Miracle on 34th Street (1973 film) and Miracle on 34th Street (1994 film) – The original film is regarded as the primary topic so the other two adaptations are disambiguated. -- so there is no requirement that "films with the same title should always be disambiguated from each other by year, even if one of the films is the clear primary topic". older ≠ wiser 02:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
Let me clarify. The Titanic example at WP:PFILM is what I am talking about, not Miracle on 34th Street. Like Titanic, the primary, undisambiguated topic of One Piece is not a TV series but a manga, but there are two TV series called One Piece, one of which (the 1999 one) is the primary topic between the two. If this were a film, we would promptly move One Piece (TV series) to One Piece (1999 TV series) in accordance with PFILM, just like we did with Titanic and Avatar and Parasite, but this is a TV series, which is why I ask whether WikiProject Television allows for partial/incomplete disambiguation (which WikiProject Film doesn't). InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:44, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
I answered above – "primary subtopics" are allowed in some limited cases, and I'm pretty sure yours isn't the only example of that under WP:NCTV. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
Please see the list given above. There are currently (only) three four identified instances of partially disambiguated TV series article titles, although AFAIK there is no explicit prohibition for TV shows like there is for films. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 10:28, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
And there shouldn't be one for films, as it's WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. But it's not like I care enough to make a stink about it... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:21, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
I agree. It's kind of silly that we send readers looking for Avatar (film), Independence Day (film), or even The Wizard of Oz (film), to dab pages instead of the articles they want. I'm a little surprised Casablanca (film) hasn't been redirected yet because someone someday might possibly be looking for Pirate Submarine. - Station1 (talk) 00:59, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
I have no opinion on the guideline itself, but WP:PFILM directly addresses the notion that it is "local consensus": While the general guideline at Wikipedia:Disambiguation allows for incomplete disambiguation, the film-naming conventions guideline prefers disambiguating all secondary-topic films from each other. Policy at WP:PRECISION permits such Wikipedia project-specific naming criteria. In any case, this talk page isn't the right place to object to/complain about NCFILM... InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:44, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
At least it says "prefers" rather than requires – that leaves some wiggle-room. But if only WP:FILM editors are showing up at these RM discussions, they will have their way. Personally, had I known about the Titanic and Avatar RM discussions, I certainly would have voted in favor of the "primary subtopic" exception for these. And moving Casablanca to "1942 film" would be even more uncalled for. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:33, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

WP:NCTVUS vs. WP:CONSISTENT

Hi. I would like to request for some comments regarding the recent RM in Talk:Lost (South Korean TV series). Currently, there are only three TV series titled Lost per Lost#Television: one South Korean and two American. In this case, which additional disambiguation should we use for the South Korean TV series—language/country or year (for consistency per nom)? Thank you in advance! Accireioj (talk) 09:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Correct disambiguation

Hi. What is the correct disambiguation for original series of OTT streaming services like Netflix, Disney+, etc. I saw some inconsistency. For example: Cigarette Girl uses "(TV series)", while Chicken Nugget uses "(web series)" (both are Netflix original series). Thank you in advance! Accireioj (talk) 16:06, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

"(TV series)" should be used if they are appearing on a streaming service. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 14:53, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Multiple Season 1's of a show

There seems to be a naming issue with it comes to Doctor Who, and editors that are not aware of naming guidelines and policies are already jumping on board the issue. For those who don't keep track of the show: The original era of the show used Season 1 to 26 from 1963 to 1989, then this reset with its return from hiatus in 2005 to Series 1, through to Series 13 in 2022. The original revival showrunner from 2005-2010 has returned with the upcoming season of Doctor Who, and has deemed the upcoming series as a newly "Season 1", instead of continuing on from the current numbering scheme. Multiple sources corroborate this, as does the original network, and this is why there are attempts to rename the article (or at least discuss it).

Now this might be too early to actually discuss, but if some form of discussion is held, that determines that Doctor Who (series 14) should be moved to a "Season 1" title, despite Doctor Who (season 1) existing, how would NCTV support the disambiguation between the 1963 season 1, and the 2024 season 1, given that they're not new seasons of different revivals but it's all still technically part of the same show? -- Alex_21 TALK 20:29, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Probably something like Doctor Who (season 1, 2023) (though if any change to the naming convention above passes, I guess the disambiguation would be much cleaner Doctor Who season 1 (2023)) Gonnym (talk) 20:58, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Given further updates, I've started an RFC at Talk:Doctor Who (series 14)#RFC: Title of this article, and following seasons. -- Alex_21 TALK 07:53, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Move/rename discussion for Critical Role campaign articles

A series of articles which may be of interest to members of this project—Critical Role (campaign one), Critical Role (campaign two), and Critical Role (campaign three)—has been proposed for renaming. If you are interested, please participate in the move discussion. Thank you. Sariel Xilo (talk) 19:09, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Move TV seasons from parenthetical disambiguation to comma disambiguation

NO CONSENSUS
There appears to be a rough consensus to change from parenthetical disambiguators, however, there was no clear consensus for any of the options brought up during the discussion. A new RfC with the following options would likely lead to a consensus.
  • Option 1 (status quo): TV Series (season 1)
  • Option 2 (comma): TV Series (British TV series), season 51
  • Option 3 (space): TV Series (2032 TV series) season pi/2
  • Option 4 (colon): TV Series: season infinity

voorts (talk/contributions) 20:57, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Upon re-reviewing my close and the discussion after BD2412 came to my talk page, I am sticking to my original close, but I am adding the following to explain my reasoning. (I am also changing this from being hatted as an RfC to being hatted as a discussion, since this was not in fact an RfC.) This discussion essentially boiled down to comma vs. no punctuation. Numerically, more editors preferred no punctuation to commas (and very few editors supported colons, but the following applies to colons as well). However, this is NOTAVOTE, so I proceeded to evaluate the arguments on each side. The primary disputes were around whether (1) no punctuation would be more confusing for readers, (2) no punctuation is used in RSes, and (3) if we treat "season X" as a disambiguator, no punctuation is appropriate. I found competing assertions on both sides for the first point of contention, with little in the way of explanation as to why one option would be more confusing over the other. The second issue was raised by one editor, and nobody pointed to any RSes either way, so I discounted that argument too. As for the third argument, there was no consensus around whether "season X" even is a disambiguator. Thus, I found no consensus based on P&Gs for use of either option.

I have also struck the proposed RfC above, as BD pointed out to me that since there was rough consensus to eliminate parentheses, that shouldn't be an option. Instead, I propose the following:

  • Option 1 (no punctuation): Foo season bar
  • Option 2 (comma): Foo, season bar
  • Option 3 (colon): Foo: season bar

As appropriate, the date or nationality of a TV show should be incorporated where more than one show shares the same name. For example: Foo (2023 British TV series) season bar or Foo (Australian TV series), season bar or Foo (1972 TV series): season bar.

In reaching consensus in the next discussion on this topic, should there be one, it would be helpful for editors to address whether adding "season X" to the name of a TV show is a form of disambiguation and how RSes identify seasons of TV programs. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:32, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikipedia has thousands of articles on TV seasons of specific shows at titles like The Crown (season 4), Shark Tank (season 12), and One Piece (season 20). However, unlike disambiguators that disambiguate different kinds of things sharing the same name, like Mercury (planet)/Mercury (element)/Mercury (mythology), these are really merely instances of the same things. I propose that the titling scheme should be changed to comma disambiguation, so that titles like the above would be at The Crown, season 4, Shark Tank, season 12, and One Piece, season 20. I believe that this is a more natural disambiguation scheme, and would enable us to avoid the current phenomenon of actual disambiguation pages at titles like Degrassi (season 1), Dynasty (season 3), The Great British Baking Show (season 5), and Secret Story (season 7).

Shows with other ambiguous elements would continue to use parentheses for those elements, so MacGyver (2016 TV series, season 5) would become MacGyver (2016 TV series), season 5 and The Voice (Australian season 7) would become The Voice (Australia), season 7. There are, by my count, 6,334 articles on TV show seasons with "(season X)" parentheticals. There is some additional number using parentheticals for "series" (used in the sense of a season, rather than as a "TV series") rather than "season", which would also be covered by this proposal. BD2412 T 04:45, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh I already tried that in 2020, the whole thing is at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Archive 17#Season naming convention (continued), but as far as I can tell, the general idea "don't fix what isn't broken", even if I agree that it's absolutely broken and against Wikipedia's disambiguation guidelines. You are quite correct: if Mercury (mythology) concerns the concept called Mercury that is specifically from mythology, by the same rules, One Piece (season 20) would concern the concept called One Piece that is specifically from some "season 20", which makes zero sense. -- Alex_21 TALK 07:07, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Just adding a link to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Archive 17#RFC: What should the naming convention for television season articles be? as well, to show the clear options given for commas. -- Alex_21 TALK 07:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Also, this discussion needs to be advertised in more places, including WikiProjects with TV season articles. InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:55, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Um, WP:AT is actually policy :D Also, I don't quite understand the point about colons, when the linked naming convention for lists says it's a preferred model, and then immediately says a comma model is common and acceptable. --Joy (talk) 11:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Also, MOS:TITLE says we can use ((Italic title|string=Loki)) for the partially italicized style you mentioned. --Joy (talk) 11:23, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Sorry, I meant NCDAB, not AT. I know about ((Italic title)), but that still isn't as neat as having parentheses. My point about colons is that commas usually function the same as parentheses (for example with th Windsor and Diana examples), in which case there is no reason to change. MOS:VAR. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:03, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
@InfiniteNexus: Entire premise (yours and the OP) is faulty, isn’t it, though? Since these are unambiguous topics. Your point that there should be no commas or parens (eg with Loki season 2) is right on, though. Would only ever need parens if there were two different series with multiple seasons like a Loki (Australian TV series) season 2 Hyperbolick (talk) 01:24, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
The point is that it looks messier without parentheses. Sure, you can argue that's a cosmetic/ILIKEIT argument, but again, we should make sure our article titles are easy on readers' eyes. This isn't a disambiguation situation, therefore we are free to choose whatever method works best. InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:29, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
This isn't a disambiguation situation, therefore we are free to choose whatever method works best. Are there really no rules for titles of unambiguous works? Not common mame, even? Hyperbolick (talk) 01:55, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
(season 2) vs. , season 2 vs. season 2 isn't a matter of common vs. uncommon name, it's a matter of styling the already common name. The COMMONNAME argument would apply to a proposal to switch to (series 2) or (part 2) or whatever. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:32, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Monarch TV series

Monarch (TV series) currently redirects to Monarch: Legacy of Monsters, an American series, while we also have Monarch (American TV series). Should the first link be a disambiguation page, and should the third link be moved to a better disambiguation? -- Alex_21 TALK 06:03, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Well, the title of Monarch: Legacy of Monsters is not Monarch; it's a partial title match. Unless there is another notable TV series named Monarch (Monarch (disambiguation) doesn't show one), it looks like Monarch (American TV series) should move to Monarch (TV series), and in turn it should have a hatnote disambiguating from Monarch: Legacy of Monsters. The present mess of Monarch (TV series) redirecting to Monarch: Legacy of Monsters is obviously WP:RECENTISM and failure to follow WP:DAB on at least two counts.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:38, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
I'd have no issues with that, thanks for clarifying those details. Monarch (TV series) has no active mainspace links that would require updating, so if nobody else raises an issue with it, I'll move Monarch (American TV series) to Monarch (TV series) later and add the hatnote. -- Alex_21 TALK 07:19, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
It is not that easy. While the full title Monarch: Legacy of Monsters is unambiguous, the series is often referred to without the subtitle. I would oppose a proposal to rename Monarch (American TV series) as Monarch (TV series). This is a question of primary topic for the incomplete disambiguation ' Monarch (TV series)' -- the musical drama is absolutely not. Whether the monster series is PT is another question. I'd say it is to soon to tell. older ≠ wiser 14:41, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
BTW, if neither of these series is primary topic for Monarch (TV series) -- that term should redirect to Monarch (disambiguation)#Film and television. older ≠ wiser 14:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
Well baby steps... I redirected Monarch (TV series) to Monarch (disambiguation)#Film and television in this edit as Legacy of Monsters is clearly not primary. —Joeyconnick (talk) 19:11, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Joeyconnick, why do you think it is clearly not primary? Monarch (American TV series) is a poorly reviewed, forgettable series cancelled after one season. Monarch (American TV series) is a well-received, relatively popular show. pageviews a orders of magnitude in difference. WikiNav shows the monster show as the top two destinations for those arriving at the disambiguation page (and I suspect the American show in third place may be due to curiosity or confusion about what this other American TV show called Monarch is). older ≠ wiser 20:18, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
As above, WP:RECENTISM. Also, we (generally) don't do partial disambiguation, so the appropriate target is the disambiguation page since the series is very clear about its title and it's not simply "Monarch". —Joeyconnick (talk) 22:46, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
It is also commonly called simply "Monarch" without the subtitle. And yes recentism is a thing, but when one is nearly negligible in comparison, what is the point? I'm not necessarily saying it is primary for "Monarch (TV series)", it just isn't such a clear case, and if it isn't primary for that, there is no way that the cancelled series is primary for either "Monarch (TV series)" or "Monarch (American TV series)". older ≠ wiser 08:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

RFC: Should we use "(serial)" or "(TV serial)"?

Both disambiguators "(serial)" and "(TV serial)" are in titles for various articles, see a title search for "(TV serial)" and a title search for "(serial)" for reference. In the NCTV guideline's current state, the mentioned use is "(serial)", but most articles which are located at titles with "(serial)" instead of "(TV serial)" seem to be about film serials, and actually pertain to title conventions that are covered by WP:NCFILM.

So, in regards to TV serials, which disambiguator should be the standard? Steel1943 (talk) 20:01, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Can you explain to me the difference between a TV serial and a TV series? Gonnym (talk) 11:01, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
@Gonnym: I believe "serial" is a UK-ism and "series" is an Americanism. Moreover, there are definitely some number of shows for which the "TV" serial/series must be distinguished from radio or film. BD2412 T 14:28, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
Actually, I may be wrong about this. I know that in the UK, "series" is often used to mean what "season" is used for in the U.S. BD2412 T 16:00, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Yes, "series" in the UK often means "season" in the US. But that distinction isn't important to this question, which is about the word "serial". Toughpigs (talk) 18:52, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
If "serial" doesn't mean anything different in the UK, then we should be using "TV serial" wherever we are delineating a serial that is on TV. BD2412 T 19:07, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
In British English, the answer is that a ‘series’ is a series of programmes where each programme stands alone - for example a game show, wildlife documentary, or a drama where there’s a separate self-contained and completed story every episode, whereas a ‘serial’ is (usually a drama) where the storyline continues from one episode to another - i.e. the principal storyline arc runs across the entire season (US) or series (UK), such that watching a single episode would be like reading the middle chapter of a book. Like, for example, Poldark, or War and Peace. The distinction becomes blurred in series that have both a longer storyline and self-contained episodes, like Secret Army, or Blakes Seven; in my judgement they'd both be considered serials due to the longer storyline, but each episode wraps up a story and you could drop into the middle and have a fulfilling view, although you might not fully understand the context right away. All these comments apply to TV; I don’t believe the term ‘serial’ is really used in British English in a film context. MapReader (talk) 08:20, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
I agree with what you have said. In South Africa a preview of an upcoming film shown before the main film is called a trailer. Serial is also understood to be a single story told in multiple episodes e.g. at 2000 every Tuesday evening All British produced shows use series and not season e.g. The Sarah Jane Adventures, Atlantis. All American produced TV series such as Supergirl, The Flash that are released in South Africa and the UK (DVD Region 2) use Season in their titles. In my view the distinction between Series and Season is important and should be kept. PhilipGray123 (talk) 00:02, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
I think that in practice we're using "(serial)" for film serials (Flash Gordon (serial), Congo Bill (serial)) and "(TV serial)" for television (Quatermass (TV serial), The Hound of the Baskervilles (TV serial)). I can't find any examples of a non-redirect page that currently uses "(serial)" for television. This may be an example of policy needing to catch up to practice. I'd suggest updating the policy to specify "(TV serial)" and fix any outliers, if there are any. Toughpigs (talk) 17:22, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
You need to rephrase and put the question again, to allow for both American and British English terminology. MapReader (talk) 15:20, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
The British/American question was based on an error. There's no difference in the British vs American definition of the word "serial". Toughpigs (talk) 05:09, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
From the above explanations (and I'm sure I'm in the minority but it's still worth stating the obvious), I don't really see any merit in continuing using "serial" or "TV serial". NCTV has very little variation in the types of disambiguation it has for standard television shows (there used to be much more). "TV series", "TV programme" or "miniseries" should be enough to handle any variation. Gonnym (talk) 11:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Currently, a search for "(TV serial)" shows that many of them are already redirects to "(TV series)". I think a change across the board from "TV serial" to "TV series" would make sense. Toughpigs (talk) 16:59, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
For articles tagged as written in British English, that wouldn’t be appropriate, as TV serial is what they are commonly called. MapReader (talk) 20:25, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Is there a source for this? BD2412 T 20:36, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
The definition is as set out in our own WP articles on TV serials and TV shows. There are plenty of other authoritative sources on the internet as to what the term means. Most of these imply that it is still pertinent in both US and UK English, and I can attest to the latter. It isn’t clear what the source is for suggesting that it’s no longer a relevant term in US English? MapReader (talk) 21:02, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
"Serial" also has a theatrical sense, and refers to a series of episodic shorts released over time that were put on before or after the main feature (their serial nature being used as an extra draw to keep people coming back to movie theaters on a regular basis); that's how The Lone Ranger and Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon got started. I'm not entirely certain what other uses "serial" might have in a filmic context, especially with regard to television.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:53, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
"TV series" should be used over "serial" or "TV serial" for programmes broadcast on television. "Serial" is particularly undesirable as it makes the medium unclear (the disambiguator is likely needed because there's been a serial of the same name in a different medium). I would understand and expect any of these terms to be used in the UK to describe, for instance, a self-contained story told across three hour-long episodes: "miniseries", "series", "serial", "programme". A TV serial is a type of TV series. If "serial" isn't commonly used outside of British English then "series" is preferable under MOS:COMMONALITY. — Bilorv (talk) 23:35, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Miniseries disambiguation

This guideline states that the correct disambiguation for miniseries is "Title (miniseries)" rather than "Title (TV series)". I have started a move discussion at Talk:Obi-Wan Kenobi (TV series)#Requested move 18 April 2024 to get that article moved to the correct disambiguation. Posting here in case any involved in the guideline wants to chip in. - adamstom97 (talk) 15:45, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

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