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The result of the move request was: not moved. Procedural close due to offwiki canvassing. I am also enacting a provisional move moratorium of 2 years. Having this perennial request listed even every year is too much. I'm not sure about previous moratoriums, so some adjustments to this one are possible. If the Arbitration Committee chooses to examine this, I will of course defer to their respective decision. El_C 15:12, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Move moratorium length has been set for one year. Note now redundant. El_C 16:41, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
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Please give me a heads up before closing so that I could resolve the matter of the moratorium's length. It is important this is accomplished before a decision is undertaken. Thanks. El_C 01:46, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
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This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 21 September 2020. The result of the move review was endorsed. |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I did a rough headcount and the spread is ~50 supports to about ~30 opposes, but since this is not a vote, we need to determine how participants weighed the relevant arguments.
The main reason given for opposing the move was WP:COMMONNAME, and some editors expressed that nothing had changed since the last move request. Participants pointed out that since the last move request, a number of style guides for reliable, English-language sources have changed their guidance from "Kiev" to "Kyiv", and that the previous consensus--"Kiev" is the most common name--should be reevaluated. Some editors go further and point out that even if the opposition is correct about "Kiev" being most frequent, the demonstrated trend and common sense suggests that Kyiv will take that spot in the near future.
Participants in favor of the move also cited WP:COMMONNAME, but made two different arguments. The first is similar to the opposition argument: [preferred spelling here] is the most commonly used variant in reliable, English-language publications and [preferred spelling here] should therefore be the article title. To resolve this, editors presented evidence for their position in the form of style guides, newspaper articles, websites, search trends, and other documents linked throughout the debate. Participants generally weighted style guides and newspaper articles more heavily while raising issues with search engine tests. Given the disputes and commentary, participants did not come to a consensus on what is the most frequent spelling in reliable sources.
The second line of argument by supporters citing COMMONNAME focused on what to do when there is more than one common name. Editors contend that the debate above provides evidence for two common names, and thus (per COMMONNAME) we should consider criteria other than frequency to figure out which name is better. Participants appealed to various policies and guidelines, but the ones brought up most frequently were WP:MODERNPLACENAME and WP:NAMECHANGES. Editors in support of the move pointed out that these policies recommend using the more recent name when deciding between two common names, and so we should prefer "Kyiv".
In general, participants found the arguments for "Kyiv" stronger than those for "Kiev". Both sides cited WP:COMMONNAME as supporting their position, but editors in support of the move justified their position with a wider variety of policies and rationales. Participants found the COMMONNAME argument advanced by opposes to be weak, and this is reflected in a number of comments as well as the 2-to-1 support-oppose split. Conversely, a number of support rationales were not seriously challenged, and editors in opposition generally did not convince others that their interpretation of COMMONNAME was the correct one. So given the discussion, there is a rough consensus that the article should be moved to Kyiv. — Wug·a·po·des 06:58, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Original move request 1 July 2020: Kiev → Kyiv – Since October 2019 when the 9 months ban/moratorium on requesting to change the name of the article from Kiev to Kyiv was established, the following updates have happened (per Atlantic Council's article from October 21, 2019 entitled Kyiv not Kiev: Why spelling matters in Ukraine’s quest for an independent identity, "A number of global heavyweights have recently adopted the Ukrainian-language derived 'Kyiv' as their official spelling for the country’s capital city, replacing the Russian-rooted 'Kiev'"
). Specifically, a couple of changes have happened: 1) all major English publications that used their own stylebook have made updates to their styleguides and now use Kyiv spelling, 2) all major English publications that use standard stylebooks (e.g., Associated Press Stylebook or Canadian Press Stylebook) are now following recent updates in those styleguides and are now using Kyiv, 3) IATA has switched to Kyiv and therefore all international airports have updated their English spelling to Kyiv, 4) BGN has switched to Kyiv and, therefore, all major geographical bodies followed suite and are now using Kyiv and, lastly, 5) The Library of Congress has switched to Kyiv and, therefore, all major library organizations followed suite and are now using Kyiv.
Below is a selection of a few of those major updates:
Update to move request 30 August 2020: All of the recent changes of media organizations switching to Kyiv spelling, as mentioned by the Atlantic Council and as listed in this RM, are documented in great detail at Talk:Kiev/sources; this RM lists a selection of a few of those major updates. (Also details of the 9 months ban/moratorium on requesting to change the name of the article from Kiev to Kyiv that was in place since October 2019 till June 2020 can be found here and here)--73.75.115.5 (talk) 16:52, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Editors please note: To leave your !vote and rationale for September, click on the following link: #Survey (September). P.I. Ellsworth ed. put'r there 20:03, 28 August 2020 (UTC) |
-chicken
and forgot to add -Dynamo
) Using US as location, and Ukrainian as the language and adding both -chicken
and -Dynamo
I just got quite a different result for Reuters (with Kyiv beating out Kiev by about 50%):--73.75.115.5 (talk) 15:57, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
-chicken
in one case and only -Dynamo
in the other). Using US as location, and Ukrainian as the language and adding both -chicken
and -Dynamo
I just got quite a different result for AP (with roughly 1-to-1 ratio, but Kiev beating out Kyiv slightly by about 30%):--73.75.115.5 (talk) 15:57, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
-chicken
in one case and only -Dynamo
in the other). Using US as location, and Ukrainian as the language and adding both -chicken
and -Dynamo
I just got quite a different result for all news (with roughly 1-to-1 ratio, but Kyiv beating out Kiev slightly by about 10%):--73.75.115.5 (talk) 15:57, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
-chicken
in one case and a different one -Dynamo
in the other). As I clearly showed above in all examples, except for AP, Kyiv wins over Kiev by 10% to 50%.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 16:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)The only major U.S. newspaper that has switched to Kyiv is the Miami Herald and it isn't even near the top of the list. The New York Times and Los Angeles Times both use Kiev. And the most popular travel sites (Expedia, Travelocity, Orbitz) send travelers to "Kiev, Ukraine (KBP-Borispol Intl.)" or "Kiev, Ukraine (IEV-All Airports)". (Apr 2019)(diff) and
"Kyiv" is overtly rejected by the BBC style guide (link in the article). It's only used in proper names (such as "Kyiv Dynamo") in the New York Times. It's never used as the name of the city on any of the dozen English-language travel booking sites that I consult regularly (I buy tickets for myself or my family to Kyiv at least once a year). The American Board of Geographic Names lists "Kiev" as the "conventional name", a term they use for "commonly used name".(diff). And what do we see now? - all arguments that that user used a year ago are no longer valid (i.e., travel sites/airports switched to Kyiv after IATA's Oct 2019 switched to Kyiv; all major English newspapers, such as the quoted The New York Times and Los Angeles Times, switched to Kyiv in 2019; all major English styleguides, such as the quoted BBC Styleguide; switched to Kyiv in 2019; American Board of Geographic Names stopped listing "Kiev" as the "conventional name" in June 2019, and instead started listing only "Kyiv" as the "conventional name"), and yet they (as well as other pro-Kiev editors on this talkpage) seemingly instantly forgot that they made all those arguments a year ago and now instead switched to using new arguments forcused around Google Ngram/Trends/Searches (which should never be used in discussions like this for the many reasons described at WP:GOOGLELIMITS and Wikipedia:Overreliance upon Google). I guess I just wish there was less hypocrisy here on enwiki and people at least were honest with themselves (and rest of enwiki community) and transparently said in their Oppose vote that they support Kiev spelling because of their own long-standing WP:Systemic bias...--73.75.115.5 (talk) 03:39, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.The U.S. Board on Geographic Names approved the spelling Kyiv in 2006 and in 2019 actually delisted "Kiev" as a conventional name. The sources listed by the nominator demonstrate that Kyiv has become the overwhelmingly preferred transliteration of reputable sources. gobonobo + c 17:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Favoring the Russian transliteration of a Ukrainian place name reinforces the Russian pronunciation of the name and perpetuates a Russian colonialist mindset that denies Ukrainian autonomyis not an argument for NPOV. Because it treats "Kiev" as "the Russian transliteration of a Ukrainian place name", rather than an English word, and is based solely on Ukrainians' reactions to that word. It is implicitly an argument that we should be writing to appease Ukrainian people, i.e. from a Ukrainian POV.
When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others- particularly given that it was coupled with WP:NPOV. Even if I accept that Kyiv is the most common (and that is not clear to me), it has problems. It seems to have no standard pronunciation that meets the phonological requirements of the English language. And a lot of the arguments in favour seem to boil down to supporting the Ukrainian POV.
Per Wikipedia's naming policy, our choice of name does not automatically follow the official or local form, but depends on that change having become predominant in common global usage.The current common global usage is still Kiev, so that's the name we should prefer for the article.
"and it’s already encouraging others to take up the call."Really? And how are these "others" finding out about these comments? Sounds like you just proved he's right! - BilCat (talk) 22:05, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources). Google Trends is useful for finding out that prevalence as outlined under Wikipedia guidelines, because it's explicitly not the "web search"-type that is discouraged by WP:GOOGLE. I was not "evaluating yourself", but your arguments: you have resorted to the "it's fake/it's a red herring"-sort of arguments to attempt to discredit those sources that disprove the claim for "Kyiv", so it's perfectly fine to evaluate that. If I had to evaluate yourself, I'd say that it's unhelpful for you to acknowledge pursuing some sort of agenda on this issue, or the continuous tag teaming with that troublesome IP, but I just got sick of it and just wish for this RM to end (hopefully, in a way that is truly respectful of Wikipedia's guidelines and not the result of any off-wiki action or advocacy agenda), so that it stops causing so many headaches to so many people just because some are really intent on getting intense on this topic until it goes their way. Cheers. Impru20talk 20:09, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
even the MOST stubborn English encyclopedia in the world - Encyclopedia Britannica switched to Kyiv on November 25, 2019: https://www.britannica.com/place/Kyiv. Let me repeat it, so everyone could hear: even the slowest and most conservative encyclopedia in the world, Britannica, switched to Kyiv spelling a little over half a year ago. If today English Wikipedia doesn't follow in Britannica's footsteps, it would mean there's a series issue with the part of WP community that keeps advocating (against overwhelming evidence) to keep it 'Kiev' by all and every means possible.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 04:19, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Despite the popularity of Wikipedia, it is not a soapbox to use for editors' activism, recruitment, promotion, advertising, announcements, or other forms of advocacy.While it'd perfectly logical for the article to be moved to Kyiv once and if common usage shows that such change has happened, Wikipedia cannot be used as a channel to promote or help further such change in common usage, as some editors have explicitly voiced. The move should happen when and if such change happens naturally, but we cannot artificially enforce it ourselves. Impru20talk 10:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
major international organizations, major English-language media outletspart of WP:COMMONNAME or the
A search engine may helppart. Many of the opposing arguments above seem to take the form of "it doesn't matter if so many organizations formally use Kyiv if they still commonly write Kiev". I err on the side of the former. It's the editorial board of these organizations that I think we should be looking to, not specific instances where employees are lagging behind. That the CBC, BBC, NYT, WaPo, AP, Guardian, Economist, Globe, Reuters, yada yada all say they use Kyiv is important. That one can find google hits to the contrary is secondary. As has been pointed out, Google hits are complicated to qualify given the number of low quality sources, duplicates, and unrelated topics they'll include. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
But is it really when they don't always practice what they preach?yes. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:15, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
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I just found out this from earlier on 1 July:
There are several more comments from today, discussing this with other accounts (which are private so I can't see what they say, but they are clearly commenting about us and not in a very nice way): This user has been also interacting with another (declaring himself as pro-Ukrainian) who is currently commenting on the various responses in this discussion ([16], [17], [18], [19]). On the Kiev/Kyiv issue, this account has also claimed that This explains why all of these sudden new accounts/sleepers re-activation. Do you think this is funny? This whole POVish-motivated RM is an insult to intelligence and a gross violation of WP:CANVASSING, a fake attempt at attempting to show an illusion of consensus by gathering similarly-minded editors throughout the social networks. The OP should withdraw this RM or else this should probably be brought to WP:ANI so that appropiate actions are taken. This is purely disruptive. Impru20talk 01:37, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
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If you !voted above, then there is no need to !vote again below. Feel free to respond to other editors, but please do not !vote twice in this move request. |
Kiev Ukraine, Kyiv Ukraine
with smoothing set to 0 shows "Kyiv Ukraine" passing "Kiev Ukraine" in 2018 and 2019 Lev!vich 03:24, 12 September 2020 (UTC)Disinterested, authoritative reference works are almost always reliable if they are current.(omitting the list, but see at WIAN) Giving examples like (links go to source) Encyclopædia Britannica. Atlases (I have no access to these, someone want to check?) The Times Comprehensive Atlas, National Geographic, Oxford Atlas of the World, Collins World Atlas, Penguin (this one I could check–Kyiv), ditto (lacking access) for gazetteers and maps (although, for maps I can check, and WIAN permits online ones, the widely used Google Maps and Bing Maps and Apple Maps do all use "Kyiv"). As for governments, we have Geographic Names Information System / BGN (of the US government, also recommended by UK govt), The United Nations (noting the caveat that neither of these shows 'conventional' usage). CIA World Factbook. All these resources use "Kyiv" (except the atlases, which I'm unsure of as I cannot check). CIA World Factbook and the US BGN seem to be the major ones here, since those being changed seems to result in changes elsewhere.
English-language news media can also be very reliable sources.Others have provided links to show most major English RS now using "Kyiv" in their style guides.
But even a widely recognized name change will take time to be reflected in such searches, as they may still include references to the place name before the change., nevertheless here are the ngram results. Further, WP:WIAN discourages most forms of raw number usage,
Google News and Lexis-Nexis search results can provide a quick guide to the relative predominance of alternative names across the media as a whole, provided the search parameters are properly set, but as with all raw search numbers, they should be used with caution.
Raw counts from Google must be considered with extreme caution, if at all.and linking to Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Search_engine_issues
When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.). Paintspot Infez (talk) 17:33, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
corresponds to Russian orthography and pronunciation. Perhaps it's an oversimplification, but the fact remains that there is a Russian-inspired name and a Ukrainian-inspired name, and we are presently using the Russian one. – bradv🍁 20:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
2006 survey. Unfortunately, last census was in 2001, so I doubt further reliable info will be found on this point until 2021, the next census. Regardless, if you're trying to make a TITLEVAR argument (note the guideline says
a topic has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation) implying that the "strong ties" relationship of Kiev/Kyiv to the city and Ukraine mandates us to use the Russian transliteration, while Ukraine is lobbying for usage of "Kyiv" and finds the Russian transliteration offensive... well, that's a strong [dubious ]. It logically follows that no clear TITLEVAR argument can be made here. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:42, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
There are cases in which the local authority recognizes equally two or more names from different languageswhich doesn't apply here, but I get your point. Your argument would be for the closer to weigh. I would only say two things. First, If you cite WP:PLACE you must accept the guideline entirely, and it gives criteria for determining commonname (WP:WIAN), and that criteria gives us an unambiguous answer. Second, we can't determine current linguistic majority, because the last official survey was 2001 (nb: 2021 census is indefinitely delayed). Some recent, informal estimates show that to have changed, but obviously such aren't reliable to draw any conclusions from either. And really, that section is last-ditch advice when all else fails. It's not clear that such is the case here. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:36, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
If you !voted above, then there is no need to !vote again below. Feel free to respond to other editors, but please do not !vote twice in this move request. |
Recently, the Associated Press and the New York Times changed the capital of Ukraine from "Kiev" to "Kyiv." How dare they? Perhaps the better question to ask is, "What took them so long?"Lev!vich 17:31, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
common name in English-language sources. Here is evidence that Kyiv is the English-language COMMONNAME. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 16:58, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
This correspondent has on many occasions pointed out the political incorrectness of using ‘Kiev’ but editors come back with the same excuse before running a search & replace on your copy: “It’s the chicken thing.” The Russian spelling of Ukraine’s most famous dish is so deeply ingrained in the reading public’s mind (believe editors) that almost no newspaper is willing to foist the alien looking ‘Kyiv’ on its punters.". [36]
Kiev not Kiev; but chicken kiev")
Kyiv not Kiev; but chicken kiev"), and I agree that it's time we changed - just as we have Mumbai rather than Bombay. PamD 17:43, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
The United Nations GEGN Geographical Names Database uses Kyiv. The United States Board on Geographic Names (or BGN) changed its standard transliteration in October 2006 and updated the conventional name of the city in June 2019, in its database used by the US government and influencing other international bodies. The International Air Transport Association updated its spelling to Kyiv in October 2019. Kyiv is also used by the European Union, all English-speaking foreign diplomatic missions and governments, several international organizations, and the Encyclopædia Britannica.
This correspondent has on many occasions pointed out the political incorrectness of using ‘Kiev’ but editors come back with the same excuse before running a search & replace on your copy: “It’s the chicken thing.” The Russian spelling of Ukraine’s most famous dish is so deeply ingrained in the reading public’s mind (believe editors) that almost no newspaper is willing to foist the alien looking ‘Kyiv’ on its punters.[39] Do we really want to perpetuate laziness in this way? Ukrainian has a distinct Cyrillic alphabet which has extra letters, including the ï which appears in Київ. Ukrainian is a separate language, and whereas the reason for using the Russian Imperialist transliteration used to be journalistic laziness, now it's right-wingers obsessed with Ukraine as a current nexus of US political corruption. Breitbart uses Kiev, the Washington Post does not. I think that tells you everything you need to know at this point. Guy (help! - typo?) 11:00, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject" and not on what some arbitrary, unprovable, collection of native speakers use to refer to the subject. As you admit, journalist and, as has been demonstrated, reference books now prefer Kyiv. That is all the proof we need to show that it is the WP:MODERNPLACENAME.
just shut up and let the process play". --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:59, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
Kiev Ukraine, Kyiv Ukraine
shows "Kyiv Ukraine" passing "Kiev Ukraine" in 2018 and 2019. Searching just for "Kiev" will include false positives like Chicken Kiev, and smoothing must be set to 0 to see year-by-year changes. Lev!vich 02:52, 12 September 2020 (UTC)Overweighting recent sources means treating RS published in the last year as more valid... yes, because they are more valid, as explained at the guideline WP:MODERNPLACENAME. We care what the common name is for our reader today, not what the common name was in the past. Also, I disagree that your ngram is a "better way", because, for example, searching for "of Kiev" or "in Kiev" will pick up all the various things called "Battle of Kiev", "Siege of Kiev", "Kiev Offensive", plus the Soviet aircraft carrier Kiev, KIEV (870 AM), and more... Chicken Kiev is just one example of many false positives, more are listed at Kiev (disambiguation). Comparing "Kiev Ukraine" and "Kyiv Ukraine" is an apples-to-apples comparison. (We are not concerned with "Kiev USSR" because nobody calls it that, as the ngram you linked to shows.) Lev!vich 05:01, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
intitle:Kiev
, the top 10 results (at least for me) include things like TripAdvisor's page entitled "Kyiv (Kiev)" [42] and the Atlantic Council's article "Kyiv not Kiev" [43]. So... so much for google search results as an indicator of anything. The false positives are so significant and so many that it's just not a reliable indicator of anything. That's why my !vote relies on what reliable sources say on the subject directly (articles like the Atlantic Council's and Columbia Journalism Review's linked above), on examples of usage in RSes today including academic and non-academic, on style guides, and on the official spellings of various international organizations, e.g. the stuff listed at User:Levivich/Kyiv, Talk:Kiev/sources and elsewhere. Lev!vich 01:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
I raised the issue of Ukrainian government authors—no, you said we should not count “works by Ukrainian authors,” with those qualified as “working for Ukrainian government agencies” characterized as especially worse. As if what, Oleksandr Popov of the Institute of Environmental Geochemistry of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine was craftily writing about “Risk Assessment for the Population of Kyiv, Ukraine as a Result of Atmospheric Air Pollution” and using the Journal of Health & Pollution (New York) as a useful idiot to manipulate us into renaming this article?
because of WP:PRIMARY concerns—no, the secondary source you cited is Google Scholar, an aggregator and search engine that has collected search results. When you edit (cherry pick) those results, you are conducting original research. What method did you use to blacklist “works by Ukrainian authors”?—by their surnames? Research their place of birth? Test their mitochondrial DNA? Too bad about the German and American collaborators and international journal editors whose works were disqualified because they associated with Ukrainians!
"bigotry and racism", lest it be turned into a big WP:BOOMERANG on you. I've nothing else to speak with someone like you here. Cheers. Impru20talk 19:24, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
depicted [yourself] as a bigot and a racist(diff) then take action already instead of badmouthing me on this talk page. —Michael Z. 15:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
"national discrimination"(and of
"overt anti-Ukrainian bias"in the edit summary)? I immediately denied those claims (diff), yet you kept them on and expanded on them with this reply, outrageous both in the content (Literal quote:
"we sure must not discriminate without any rational basis against national and other identifiable groups. Normalizing this is a step towards bigotry and racism, and I will not let your comment go unchallenged") and in the edit summary (yes, you were fairly explicit about
"Impru20, discriminating against “works by Ukrainian authors”"). This is overt aspersion-casting pointing to me somehow normalizing
"discrimination"and
"bigotry and racism". I have never E-VER racially discriminated Ukrainian authors. What I've said (multiple times) is that Ukrainian authors and specially those working in government agencies are not independent, reliable sources. That's not a discrimination of any sort, but an evaluation of sources based on their direct involvement on this topic. Your comments accusing me of discrimination and of somehow acting in a way that normalizes bigotry and racism, and keeping the accusation ongoing despite my multiple calls against it, constitute an eggregious personal attack and an outright violation of WP:AGF, which are further shocking considering you weren't even involved in this particular discussion until I entered it, and that you did so just to insult me. I gave you the opportunity to "challenge" my comment (as you assured yourself you'd do) by bringing your accusations to WP:ANI with proper evidence if you really thought I was making any sort of racial discrimination. You didn't. Now, I'm giving you one last chance to withdraw your statements by either striking them or redacting them. If not, I'll bring this to the notice of the admins watching over this page and, if necessary, to ANI. Impru20talk 17:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
The obvious reason to give less attention to Ukrainian authors. . . — that is false, Kahastok, it is not supported by our guidelines, and obviously impossible to apply fairly if you give it a few seconds of thought. You’re disqualifying all sources by “Ukrainian authors” (by what, residency, citizenship, grade-school diploma, male parentage, DNA test?) because they “tend not to be” something? But maybe we should take you seriously, because then it would at least make us stop citing Google searches as evidence here, unless Kahastok wants to comb all 15,000 results and research their authors to determine how many are the vaunted certified “native English speakers.”
Latvian spelling has almost perfect correspondence between graphemes and phonemes.It would be nonsense for that language Wikipedia to use English Spelling. (2) That is a rare case for a wiki. The Spanish Wikipedia has Paul McCartney instead of Paulo, so does the Italian, etc... (3) We do not have to follow the example of other wikis policies. (4) The right of a people for self-naming should tip the scales, even if so slightly. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
discriminationand of
bigotry and racismacknowledged themselves in a (rather rude) comment four days ago about the importance of "independent, reliable English-language sources" ([44]). Ukrainian government-sponsored sources or those written by workers in Ukrainian government agencies are not "independent, reliable English-language sources", no matter whether they are written in English, Spanish, Czech or whatever. They are an involved party on this topic, so they fail to meet both the "independent" and "reliable" checks. How that developed into a full-blown accusation of racism? Well, ask this user about it. I just cannot comprehend it, but I'm willing to bring this issue to the appropiate wiki venues in the event that the accusation, which has been made explicit not one but two times, is not withdrawn. I can withstand the sarcasm, the irony and some minor uncivil considerations; I also have little issue with being systematically targetted by some users not liking my arguments. That's somewhat understandable within the context of such a controversial discussion, and those can be ignored if required. However, I'm sure as hell that I won't allow it to be depicted myself as a bigot and a racist. Cheers. Impru20talk 00:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
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I thought it'd be useful to explain this. I've gone through clerking some of the canvassing concerns.
I've applied for ((spa)) for editors with few edits prior to the first edit to this page.
Some editors had substantial editing histories here, but had become dormant by 1 July and suddenly appeared that day to vote here. The literal phrase "has made few or no other edits outside this topic" seems somewhat misleading in these cases. I have used ((canvassed)) for these, because it is more accurate in implication. I have also used ((canvassed)) in one case where the editor was not dormant but where we have strong evidence that they were canvassed.
Some editors have become more active since their first contribution here, but were dormant at the time they first posted here. I have based the clerking on the position when they first posted here. Kahastok talk 21:07, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Extended discussion on clerking Michael's collapsed comments. Resolved, as the editor has now restored their own comments. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:11, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
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I've added ((duplicate vote)) in a couple of cases. There may be others, I haven't searched every voter's sig, so if I've missed some please tell me or use ((duplicate vote)) yourself or whatever. I also welcome review for these cases.
As an involved editor I am not willing to go further than using ((duplicate vote)) in obvious cases, and I would strongly advise other involved editors to take the same view. Obviously User:Barkeep49 and User:El_C may choose to do something else, and that is their prerogative.
Both double voters that I have found are people who voted in July and again in September. This is a reasonably easy mistake to make, so it's not surprising that some people are making it. Kahastok talk 19:02, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
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Cassette tapeFyunck(click) Can you read? You can call it whatever you like, a "plastic thingy with reels", I don't care. But I hate when illiterate WP:COMMONNAME takes over proper technical or official name as an article title, this is idiotic. Wikipedia has redirects, so you can have a redirect from "plastic thingy with reels" to Compact Cassette. Likewise, you can have redirect from Kiev to Kyiv, and it is still searchable. For lay people Wikipedia became the source of information, not an aggregator, and thus it encourages incorrect word usage, skewing the statistics that everyone likes to appeal to when bringing up WP:COMMONNAME argument. Sick. Mikus (talk) 18:53, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, the proper "technical or official name" of the city as per the Ukrainian Constitution would be "City of Kyiv", not just "Kyiv". I am not sure if this debate is really warranted. Impru20talk 20:56, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Two more years of lockdownCripes. Of course there are regular move requests, because this page should be moved. That's an indicator of WP:CONSENSUS. But now moves and free discussion of them are being banned with the justification that there are a lot of them. What are they going to do next, hold a Victory Day parade and a popular referendum? For reference, here’s what an argument for the move might look like:
—Michael Z. 2020-07-02 15:20 z
There has been 13 failed move requests. At some point these become disruptive and a timesink, so some throttling is due. El_C 15:27, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
The RM above was made completely untenable by the off-wiki canvassing and I would certainly endorse its closure. The reason for the last moratorium was that this was coming up over and over and dominating the talk page. The consensus was consistently against moving but nothing else could get done. And it had reached the stage where the requests were so repetitious that new analysis of the evidence wasn't happening - ironically, making consensus for the move much less likely. Part of the aim of the moratorium was to give some time so that editors were looking at the issues with fresh eyes. Also, we should ask Arbcom to desysop the admin who thought it was a good idea to canvass this off-wiki, which was a gross breach of trust. Given the nature of the evidence, this may have to be handled by email. Kahastok talk 16:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Nonsense. Discussion shut down after two days? Discussion shut down for two years? Shame. Shame. Shame shame shame. Cui bono? Who's afraid of possible (! just possible !) change? Week long discussion every 6 months - so what?! Chrzwzcz (talk) 19:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
I do think it’s very troublesome that as soon as the discussion was leaning towards Kyiv, there was a sudden intervention by a certain person who has quotes of Russian dictator Lenin, who presided over the Ukrainian-Soviet war, to halt renaming the title of this article from the antiquated Russian name to the modern name in English and Ukrainian. In addition, I would suggest that moves to restrict the people who can participate in decision-making and consensus building is a form of gerrymandering, intentional or unintentional. The move to take decision making away from regular editors and viewers and into the hands of an elitist clique is extremely concerning. Tāwhiwhi (talk) 00:47, 3 July 2020 (UTC) — Tāwhiwhi (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
A modest proposalSince this RM was procedurally closed 36 hours after opening because it was "fatally compromised" due to off-Wiki canvassing and other potentially compromising irregularities, some specific directives, tailored exclusively for this subject matter may be in order. If discussions regarding the main title header for Wikipedia's article delineating the capital of Ukraine are considered to be such a "timesink" and so "disruptive" to the proper functioning of Wikipedia that they must be put into lockdown for two years, then this is obviously a special case which calls for special procedures. The key aspect of the lockdown/moratorium is that the denial of the right to discuss this matter and then to vote upon it is unfair to "true" Wikipedians, the ones who show up every day to contribute. Thus, the "modest proposal" is to make off-wiki canvassing irrelevant by limiting participation to those "true Wikipedians" whom we all know, the usual suspects. While it goes against the grain of Wikipedia's standard practice, it will at least allow a poll regarding the mindset of "true Wikipedians" regarding this longterm controversy. This RM, most likely with the same or slightly updated text, should be reopened by a "true Wikipedian", seconded by another "true Wikipedian" and should be allowed to run until there are no more comments for three, four or five days. The specifics of this proposal will obviously needs to be fine-tuned, primarily who qualifies as a "true Wikipedian" eligible to participate and vote in this "exclusive" RM and whether such a vote would count as establishing a WP:CONSENSUS. The centerpiece of the "modest proposal" would be to make participation so difficult that only a small number of "true Wikipedians" would be able to participate and then relieve the stringency as needed. Thus, start with a five-year minimum participation, a minimum of 30 edits per month for every single month of those five years and, as method of excluding single purpose accounts and "sleeper cells", any edits to articles or talk pages relating to Ukraine, Kyiv/Kiev or Russia should represent no more than 10 percent of each month's total edits. Those admittedly stringent preconditions may be loosened upon consensus. Finally, I realize full well that it goes against the spirit and principles of Wikipedia to create a special class of "true Wikipedians" or "senior Wikipedians" who would hold special privileges not available to other Wikipedians. However, this "special senior participation" would enable longterm Wikipedians an opportunity to express their views and cast their votes while keeping out special interest groups. The alternative is to lock in place for two years a state of affairs which is unsupported by all current WP:RELIABLE SOURCES, governmental institutions, geographical resources and media outlets. Let us discuss the matter. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:28, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Coffeeandcrumbs and TaivoLinguist, due to complaints regarding participation of newly-minted single-purpose accounts, the reasoning behind "a modest proposal" was to start with restrictions so onerous that few Wikipedians would be eligible to participate and then scale those restrictions downward. Of course, in practical terms, depending upon consensus, only one year and 5000 edits should be sufficient for participation or even 6 months and 2500 edits, all other aspects having been satisfied. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:24, 2 July 2020 (UTC) User:El_C would you consider bypassing reopening this RM, even with strict participation guidelines, and moving straight to Arbitration? --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 22:29, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
COMMONNAME source analysisTo assist for the next requested move, please contribute to Talk:Kiev/sources. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 03:15, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
And people were worried that they'd have to wait two years! The new RM has started, officially or not. The new moratorium lasted barely 12 hours.
(Which, for anyone interested, is precisely why we this sort of exercise was disallowed in the previous moratorium.) Kahastok talk 19:21, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
User:Levivich, if ArbCom takes up this issue and makes a decision it will most certainly "be decided". ArbCom is the final authority and your insistence that "consensus will prevail" is false. Indeed, "Consensus" is not a vote despite your attempts to make it so. But ArbCom will prevail if they take up this issue as we are asking. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:51, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
ClarificationAccording to the sequence of events (that has been hopelessly mangled in the discussion) here is the sequence of upcoming events as I understand User:El_C has stated. He is the one in charge here right now.
--TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 03:09, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
FTR, I would point out that we are not just discussing 13 RMs in the lifetime of the page. The last moratorium came in directly after the October 2019 RM. At that time I worked out that that RM (26 October 2019) was the eleventh separate discussion on the article name started since the closure of the previous RM just over three months beforehand (16 July 2019). Many of those discussions lasted several days, and while most were started by new editors they tended to end up with the same editors making the same arguments over and over again. The whole point behind the moratorium was that this continuous discussion of the article name had long since driven out all useful discussion, and was thus disrupting the article. There is no doubt that allowing such discussion to continue through any future moratorium would be equally disruptive. Kahastok talk 16:52, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Seeking confirmation of the Arbitration Committee having been made aware of this disputeCan we please get an update from someone about having contacted the Arbitration Committee regarding this matter? You don't need to divulge anything, just confirm that this communication with the Committee has began. El_C 03:01, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
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So, El_C are you waiting for the clerking? I don’t know what that means, so if you’ll explain what you expect, maybe I and some others can get started on it, since you were ready to reopen the move nearly two weeks ago. Thanks. —Michael Z. 14:55, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Or should I just ignore all these games and whispers and propose the move again, according to Wikipedia’s plain and open guidelines, and seek consensus?No, Michael, you should definitely not do that. El_C 12:55, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm interested in participants' views before the RM discussion is closed. Should we go with an upper ceiling moratorium of 2 years, or a lower ceiling moratorium of one year? El_C 23:27, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
The evidence is unequivocal despite nationalists' best efforts ...,
... this topic is prime real estate for Ukrainian trolls ...,
It would not surprise me at all if the sons of the motherland are responding to either an official call or an influential voice in the in-language media to troll Wikipedia.,
The Cossacks will probably win by default.I fail to see a difference between these quotes and the IPs'. Lev!vich 04:57, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
The evidence is unequivocal despite nationalists' best efforts..show your lack of objectivity on this matter. After derailing this RM, now you are advocating that we put another unreasonable moratorium on this issue so you can continue your WP:OWNERship of this page. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 01:03, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
editors who have been here for more than the few weeks you've been here know precisely what I'm talking about. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 01:27, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
no editor owns an article and any contributions can and may be mercilessly edited". In this case, mercilessly discussed. If SPAs are a concern, WP:DENY is the good option. Simply do not reply to comments, and ((bots|deny=RMCD bot)) is also available. There are many options besides barring any discussion of the topic. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 21:24, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
I am also enacting a provisional move moratorium of 2 years. Then what is the point of this discussion if El-C has already enacted a 2 year moratorium (implying, but not explicitly citing, powers granted to them by Arbitration Committee's Discretionary sanctions in relation to WP:ARBEE)? (update: until now I did not know about the existence of WP:Arbitration enforcement log page, so I guess El_C did make a log there at WP:AEL that they are enacting a 2 year per WP:ARBEE's ArbCom's DS, but frankly an average Joe editor of enwiki would never know hot to get to WP:AEL, so I would ask El_C to also explicitly reference on this talk page WP:ARBEE's ArbCom's DS if/when they make any more DS-related actions on this page. Thank you) --73.75.115.5 (talk) 19:59, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
my block/unblock is irrelevant to the topic at hand (which is moratorium) and as such I am not sure why we would discuss it here, so let's be productive members of this discussion and stay on topic. Thank you.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 03:04, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
the bottom part should not be collapsed if the top part is uncollapsed - if we are to collapse anything in the "General discussion" section, it should be collapsed completely (like in the "Off-wiki canvassing" section), particularly because the purpose of that discussion was to make sure editors ensure that if they plan on posting more than one explanation for their voting using a separate paragraph and a
*
within the "Survey" section, they should instead only post one voting comment using a separate paragraph and a *
, and all other voting comments with a separate paragraph and a *
should be posted under the "General discussion" section (and not "Survey" section) in order to aid the future closer of this discussion (as was rightly pointed out by sysop El_C) and to ensure that other editors do not get confused by multiple voting comments from a single editor (which was rightly pointed out by sysop Mzajac). Also Impru20 I kindly ask you to please stay civil and WP:Assume good faith about all editors in this discussion, thank you.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 16:50, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
I oppose this proposed moratorium and all explicit moratoriums for any specific time period. There is already a requirement to wait a reasonable time and/or for evidence of a reason that consensus may have changed before starting a new RM. That applies here as much as anywhere else. That’s plenty good enough. —-В²C ☎ 06:34, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
El C noted: My thinking is that this discussion should remain open longer than the usual one week, but I'll leave that at the discretion of the respective closer.
Perhaps we should discuss what the plan is for this RM on September 5. It's not exactly ideal to wait around until someone individually decides the appropriate time has passed and closes it. Should it remain open for longer than a week? Ideally we should also know so it can be relisted on the 7th (so the bot can readvertise it), if we're going with a longer period. There's also the question of who's to close, and should it be an admin (noting that although NACs are equally permitted for moves, for a controversial topic like this such a close would likely end up being challenged at MR), it's more a question of the appearance of competence and impartiality, I think. I guess per Editors are under no obligation to wait to close a move request after it is relisted. Once a move request has been open for the full seven days, it may be closed at any time by an uninvolved editor.
it should be relisted on the 5th, and any uninvolved editor may close it at any point after the 5th? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:34, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
FWIW, the closer (or someone else after the close) should probably slightly refactor/clerk these sections to actually make it readable once archived. Discussions are weirdly split across subsections or entire sections, extended discussions without headings, and some descents into offtopic discussion every now and then. Someone looking at this in a years time will find it quite hard to navigate this, especially the extraneous discussion. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:55, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
I have started a move review on Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2020 September. Please contribute to it, and hopefully we can reach a much wider consensus than we did previously. I'm not aware of Wikipedia Policy on promoting discussions on other Wiki talk pages, but I think we should aim to have a wider range of arguments and views. 118.96.188.179 (talk) 11:02, 21 September 2020 (UTC)