April 2009

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 15:11, 28 April 2009 [1].

Raymond Brownell

[edit]
Nominator(s): Abraham, B.S. (talk) 01:42, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it meets the criteria. A biography of a senior Royal Australian Air Force officer and First World War flying ace, this article has been passed as a Good article as well as A-Class by Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history. Any and all comments welcome! Thanks, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 01:42, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

oppose All images licences are based on the statement "This image was created in Australia ...", wether they are from Turkey, Malaya, Japan or France doesn't sem to matter Fasach Nua (talk) 18:16, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Australian copyright is expired for photographs pre-1955 in Australia and for Government-created works pre-1959 (see Commons:Licensing#Australia), so if they were created in Australia prior to that 1955, or government-created (which these appear to be) pre 1959 that is a legitimate public-domain statement. – iridescent 00:09, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All of the images used in this article were created and owned by the Australian Government. All of these photographs are in the public domain as Iridescent has kindly explained. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 01:07, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Interjecting here, although Fasach Nua is partially correct in assessing if the licenses are valid for the projects (a PD image in its own country might still not be enough), his oppose is invalid. Wikipedia and Commons require the image to be PD in US (Commons require it to be also PD in the country of source). The photos are considered PD in Australia based on a 2008 law, but there are questions to be answered of its status (PD) in the US. While still in their copyrighted period, have the photos been published and registered in US? Are the copyrights of the photos (if published or not published after 1978) extended or renewed on 1 January 1996 by the URAA agreement?
Raymond Brownell (as an Australian) is not mentioned in any books published after 1923 that are copyrighted in US. Hence, for all things considered, if his photos have been published in Australia, they have no copyrights in the US by 2002 and are considered to be public domain in the US as well.
For the URAA, the photos are public domain only if they are in Australian public domain before 1 January 1996. The 2008 law does not apply here; however, the law in 1996 gives the standard 50 years since creation for photographs. Therefore, Australian photos taken before 1946 are in local public domain on 1 January 1996. As none of the photos used in this article are taken after 1945, they are not affected by the renewal/extensions of the URAA.
Unless I missed something out, this article is using photos that are public domain in both US and Australia. Jappalang (talk) 02:07, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the input, mate. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 02:24, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment numbers such as 10 in the Notes section, the ones that if you click on are supposed to bring the page down to the correct reference, do not work. Sorry if I was unclear. Mm40 (talk) 01:38, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In cases where the cite has been used multiple times, you click on the letters rather than the arrow to go to the correct instance where the cite has been used. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 01:42, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm referring to refs like number 21 (a better example) where if I click on Odgers 1968,, it should bring me down to the correct book in the section entitled references. Do you see what I'm saying? Mm40 (talk) 11:37, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, okay, sorry. Cite 10 wasn't working as there was a typo in it, but they all work perfectly fine now. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 11:49, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All of them work okay except for 22 and 24 (Helson 2006). May it be a typo? Sorry for this nitpick, though :) Mm40 (talk) 19:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, thanks for the nitpick; it fixes problems. ;-) It was another editor who was kind enought to add the information from Helson, though when he added it to the "References" section he used Cite Paper which was causing the problems. I have now substituted it for Cite Book and they both work now. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 02:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review, mate. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 02:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Ian, both for the tweaks and advice. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:46, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Re. advice, no prob, I found myself doing it in my latest draft article too - as in so many things, balance is the key...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:56, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review, mate. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 23:17, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review, mate. If I am ever able to get a hold of Brownell's autobiography (which is probably the only place where there would be additional info on his non-military life) then I will definitely add in any more info I am able to from it. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 23:17, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 15:11, 28 April 2009 [2].

Jesus College Boat Club (Oxford)

[edit]
Nominator(s): BencherliteTalk 00:19, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because I think it meets the criteria, and I'd like to see if I'm right. It had a good going-over by The Rambling Man to get GA status, it's had a recent peer review with all issues addressed and some experienced and helpful (could have been either way round) editors have taken a look and found little more to say. Hope you enjoy reading it, and thank you in advance for your views. BencherliteTalk 00:19, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. BencherliteTalk 10:33, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:02, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Drat! I thought I'd found a way to do this to keep you happy, following on fromour previous discussion on the matter by making it clear where the data for these charts come from, and that the information on achievements each year is also contained in college publications. What else would you suggest I add or do? Dudhia, the academic who maintains the chart, is a rowing historian who has co-authored a published history of St Catherine's College Oxford Boat Club, incidentally, so he's not completely clueless on rowing matters. BencherliteTalk 14:39, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just go ahead and add citations to the relevant books that back up the information, and we'll be good. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:52, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done; I'm no longing using the website in question as a reference, but have put it into an external links section, as it does illustrate the rise and (more often) fall of the boats in a way that words can't do quite as easily. How's it looking now? BencherliteTalk 19:14, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, a typically excellent piece of work from the wrong side of Varsity. Rowing technicalities-wise, I cannot find any issues with the article. Nice. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:37, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

  • "... the main inter-college rowing competition at Oxford, Eights Week (an achievement termed being "Head of the River")" read awkwardly to me - "earning the title ..." perhaps? No brackets, since it is an important point.
  • The flow of the "rowers" section should be improved.
  • Some timeline or table to convey a sense of the position of the college in the Eights Week rankings over the years would be helpful.
  • Aargh! There is no central source that I've found (either for Jesus, or for Eights Week as a whole) after 1899 until the charts used as external links start in 1980. It would require probably another 100 additional references to be added to the article, even assuming I could track down the details for every year, and I'm reluctant to agree to do this extra work. BencherliteTalk 14:40, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There must be some figures available to give an idea of the current cost of running the club, and main sources of their income. Also something on the formal status & governance of the club. Since all the other OU rowing club articles are far less detailed, the only one to be FAC should cover these aspects.
  • Good idea. I've added a section on structure of the club and finance; the club is financed by the college, but details of the amounts paid to the boat club don't appear separately in the college's accounts so I can't say how much the club spends each year. Similarly, the website says that the club is sponsored by Barlow Lyde & Gilbert but I can't find out how much they pay. BencherliteTalk 14:40, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod (talk) 14:32, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: images are verifiably in public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 02:37, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: File:Jesus College Oxford Rowing Blade.svg: should it not be made clear in the Infobox (as with a caption) that this image represents the colours of the club's rowing blades, and is not a coat of arms or insignia that is typically found in Infoboxes? Jappalang (talk) 02:37, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 15:11, 28 April 2009 [3].

Damien (South Park)

[edit]
Nominator(s): — Hunter Kahn (contribs) Terrence and Phillip

I am nominating this for featured article as part of the South Park Featured Topic Drive. It just passed as a GA and I'm now pursuing an FAC. Thanks! — Hunter Kahn (contribs) 14:41, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not an admin and Template:Infobox Television episode is protected. Please have someone change the faulty hyphen between the Title and the Series to an WP:ENDASH. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed, it turned out to be a problem with Template:Infobox South Park season 1 episode list, which is not protected. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:03, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

oppose invalid FU rationale for File:Southpark_ep108_2.jpg Fasach Nua (talk) 21:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The image fails to meet WP:NFCC#8 amd hence FAC#3, the removal of this image would not significantly decrease the reader's imderstanding of the topic Fasach Nua (talk) 19:32, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • But again, can you give me any feedback on exactly why it fails this criteria? It seems to me that it meets it, and at least one other reviewers (below) has concluded the same. This image has a fair use rationale similar to other FAs for television episodes (includingTrapped in the Closet, a South Park episode). And since the image illustrates the climax of the episode in a way better than words can, I would argue that its removal would decrease the reader's understanding of the topic; otherwise, you could make that argument for the removal of every single image in a television show episode. Again, just looking for specific feedback here on how to bring it up to standards if you feel they aren't being met... — Hunter Kahn (contribs) 19:59, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aside from the points made in the rationale, per the article journalists have described "Damien" as a satire on religion, faith and the nature of good and evil,[7] as well as a commentary on commercialism and the cult of celebrity in American culture.[13] Obviously showing how the animation depicts its main characters goes towards explaining this treatment in a way that text could not adequately impart (and the context in which they are depicted in this screenshot also is toward this end, which is nice). I don't think it can sensibly be argued otherwise. 86.44.27.38 (talk) 17:36, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Other than the image, I'd be inclined to support. But it really is the main objection into what is otherwise a really good article. Sceptre (talk) 14:26, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, since I put the image there, I obviously disagree. The screen shot is being used for the purposes of critical commentary and discussion. The character is based on the Omen character, and I don't think the concept and visual relationship between the two are mutually exclusive. And I feel the illustration between the two demonstrates this relationship far better than text can. But, as I've said before, the images policy here at Wikipedia is not by any means my strong suit, and I since I wouldn't want this alone to hold up the FAC, I'll drop the image if necessary. Can anyone else leave me any feedback on this, before I delete it? — Hunter Kahn (contribs) 14:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the image, I agree there are several similarities between the characters to suggest a visual homage as well as a character homage. I think it's on the right side of NFCC8. Sceptre (talk) 05:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please make sure that all sentences that contain a quotation have a citation at the end of the sentence. This might mean that citations are duplicated in subsequent sentences, but that is okay. Karanacs (talk) 16:43, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

SupportThe current infobox image with its captions satisfies the fair use images criteria. The image illustrates Satan's muscular figure, Jesus's weak figure and his week punch. The current image with the current caption satisfies all required guidelines. It is an image illustrating the commentary in the caption. When u read muscular figure, you wouldn't imagine Satan to look like that right? --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:26, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The two South Park episodes chronology templates are redundant to the big season 1 episode list at the top.
  • Is that big Season 1 episode list template in the main infobox really necessary? It takes quite a bit of space, for info that is not directly related to this particular episode. Even so, there are a few MoS errors in that template—the episode names need to be in quotes, and the dash in between the dates should be an endash (–), not an emdash (—).
Much better. I hope this is enforced as the standard on all South Park articles. indopug (talk) 16:21, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd love to have given a more detailed review but I haven't seen the first season yet, and don't want it spoiled. indopug (talk) 15:42, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question regarding sourcing—why aren't books such as South Park and Philosophy: You Know, I Learned Something Today, South Park and Philosophy: Bigger, Longer, and More Penetrating, South Park Conservatives: The Revolt Against Liberal Media Bias and South Park Republican (maybe more, I just copied these from Template:South Park) used as sources? I don't think this article can be considered comprehensive if none of them are consulted at all. For eg: see any Simpsons episode FA, where there is quite a bit of analysis from academic books. indopug (talk) 16:21, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 15:11, 28 April 2009 [6].

Zinc

[edit]
Nominator(s): mav (talk), Stone & Nergaal

Article was de-stubbed and converted to WikiProject Elements format by Dwmyers in 2003 and grew larger in true wikistyle for 5 years. The nominators of this FAC have been working on this article for several months now (starting with Stone in October 2008). Of course, many others have helped, especially from WikiProject Elements and commentators during the PR and the article's talk page. We now rate this article to be A-class and believe it exemplify Wikipedia's best work per FA standards. If not, then please tell us what you think should be fixed. mav (talk) 01:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for now. It's interesting reading, and I think the coverage is good, but the prose needs some touch-up, and a lot more linking to increase accessibility for less experienced readers. Hopefully the comments below will help. Sasata (talk) 08:59, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Thanks for making all the changes. Looks like FA quality to me now. Sasata (talk) 20:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

Characteristics

Compounds and chemistry

Somebody already did that. --mav (talk) 03:18, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

History

improved. n
Changed to: "The word is probably derived from the German [Zinke] Error: ((Lang)): text has italic markup (help), and supposedly meant "tooth-like, pointed or jagged" (metallic zinc crystals have a needle-like appearance)." --mav (talk) 15:43, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Production

Done

Applications

  • added 33,200 tonnes (36,600 short tons)
  • I'm pretty sure that USGS ref meant short tons when it stated 'ton' in the source doc b/c 'metric ton' is used separately and spelled out specifically. So I changed it to 33,200 short tons (30,100 t). --mav (talk) 22:47, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hm. On second thought, the first use of any "ton" in the USGS doc is 'metric ton' and then it gives a figure in ambiguous "tons" that is percent decrease from the "metric ton" figure that works mathematically. So "ton" looks to be in fact mean "metric ton / tonne". Changed back. --mav (talk) 22:47, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
done. n

Biological role

I believe the more awkward term is actually appropiate here. n
I understand the reason for that general rule but 'utilization' is the technically correct term here. --mav (talk) 22:00, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
added an and
most of these were fixed. n
Thank you for such a detailed review. I will start to address each point after work today (in about 10 hours). --mav (talk) 11:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mav, I have given the refs a quick formatting cleanup for p vs pp and endashes in page ranges (I left the weird CRC page numbers alone, but added an inline query RE a particularly odd one). Maralia (talk) 15:34, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Cool - thanks. :) I'll look for your comment. --mav (talk) 03:18, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've fixed most of the remaining comments. Nergaal (talk) 03:25, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It wouldn't be more than a factoid as it doesn't really matter. But anyways, I bet it is US, as pretty much any other raw product that is consumed in the world. Nergaal (talk) 04:56, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
added page numbers 591-603
page # does not apply for this reference. n
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:34, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

comments jimfbleak (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sphalerite, a zinc sulfide, is the most important zinc ore and zinc is the 24th most abundant element in the Earth's crust. Personally, I'd put abundance before the ore
done. n
  • Although zinc has been used in the copper-zinc alloy brass since Roman... is a bit clunky, what about something like Although zinc has been alloyed with copper to make brass since Roman...
that would change the meaning completely. nevertheless, I have altered the sentence. is it better now? n
  • deleted the
  • Because of this some of their salts to have the same crystal structure
  • deleted to
  • Palestinian brass from the 14th to 10th centuries BC contains 23% zinc.[40] The Book of Genesis, written between the 10th and 5th centuries BC,[41] mentions Tubalcain as an "instructor in every artificer in brass and iron" (Genesis 4:22). Lead implies, incorrectly, that Romans were first to make brass
  • Only archeologica prove might be able to clearify what Tubalcain might have been. It is likely to be brass, but only Roman artefacts have been found as ariological sound oldest items.--Stone (talk) 10:06, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The brass article says Brass has likely been known to humans since prehistoric times, even before zinc itself was discovered. Romans are not prehistoric jimfbleak (talk) 15:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A abstract from an article from 1978 [7] states that it was known since 1000BC in asia minor and from 700BC by the Greek and later by the Etruscans. A quote is: but very few Greek Cu alloys and only two Etruscan ones contain Zn.. Makeing it likely that these samples of brass where only produced by chance. The deliberate production started between 20BC and 30AD and was driven by development of metalurgic process by the romans. We might add deliberate production to the lead. --Stone (talk) 19:19, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I added this to the first para to make that more clear: "Various isolated examples of the use of impure zinc in ancient times have been discovered." And changed the sentence in the lede to: "Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc that has been used since at least the 10th century BC." --mav (talk) 21:04, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*where there are multiple references, can they be arranged in numerical order?
  • I only found two and changed it.
*Postlewayt's Universal Dictionary - I've italicised the title, but I'm not sure if Postletwayt's was part of the title
I checked - it isn't jimfbleak (talk) 15:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • world's largest zinc producer is Nyrstar, does this include China?
*GI tract GI = ?
  • changed to Gastrointestinal tract
  • ''It is particularly rich in semen odd phrase, better to say semen is rich in zinc
  • changed it to the suggested form
  • low-birth why hyphen?
  • deleted hyphen
Having gone through a couple of old textbooks I'll have to admit my mistake and concede that the definition inclusive of zinc is at least sometimes used, still if it can be sourced it might be worth mentioning the questionable status in the article somewhere. Guest9999 (talk) 02:58, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Somebody changed the left aligned images and I substituted the 3 scientific numbers by the val template.--Stone (talk) 13:23, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Much overlinking now gone. --mav (talk) 22:56, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ruslik (talk) 10:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your review. I'll start an effort to address your points this weekend. If this article is promoted to FA status before I'm done, then I will make sure to still address your points in a follow-up PR (as I did for plutonium after it was promoted). --mav (talk) 01:30, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate that and congratulate you on the hard work, but I hope it doesn't. It seems like there hasn't been a thorough review of this topic yet to find the best sources. I don't see why an article needs to be raised to FA prematurely. Although a lot of work has been done, the work which remains to be done seems fairly substantial and will require a fair amount of reading and research. I don't see why anyone would want to use a book like Emsley's "A-Z Elements" to describe biology in a FA. Books like these which do not cite sources and appeal to a popular audience can introduce real factual errors; for example, one of the nominators (Stone) asked about fluoride's biological role and Itub found that Emsley's "A-Z" book stated the totally false claim that fluoride was essential and that laboratory rats suffered when they received no fluoride. Yes, a 1973 article found that rats suffered, but as described in fluorine deficiency, it was refuted in 1976 and in 1997 the NRC stated that fluoride is not an essential nutrient, although it is beneficial to the teeth (mainly through topical exposure). This is well-recognized, although there are some people who, like Emsley, get confused and think that fluoride was among the elements described in Mertz's classic article. Emsley does not cite his sources inline and should be totally avoided as he is unreliable. II | (t - c) 03:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Damn - I already had to toss "History and use of our earth's chemical elements" by Krebs due to bad info in it (some parts really bad). As for Building Blocks; one would think that since Oxford University Press published the book and that Emsley is a professor of chemistry there would be some guarantee of quality. I guess not, at least when it comes to biology. I'll keep that in mind as I use that book in the future. As to promoting FAs that still have objections; it happens all the time. Neither perfection nor unanimity is required to become an FA. However, I highly respect the work that reviewers put into their reviews and I always try to address valid concerns and give good reasons why I think other points are not valid - even if the article has already received its star. I see that you are currently editing zinc so I will work on something else until you are done for the day. So far, the work done by you and Stone looks good. --mav (talk) 21:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks like the lead issues you mentioned are fixed now and many of the Emsley refs have been replaced. Still more work to do but the section does look better. Thanks for your edits so far. :) --mav (talk) 01:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two of my references, Greenwood and Cotton, both have good sections on the biological role of zinc. I'll use them to replace the remaining Emsley refs. --mav (talk) 00:14, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks much better now! Excellent work. 07:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Images - All are approprietly licenced, however File:Zn-alchemy.jpg may need a ciation for it's content, File:Luigi_Galvani,_oil-painting.jpg should be looking into the text (ie Left side of the page), File:World_Zinc_Production_2006.svg, the caption should explain what the percentages are for (I assume this is of total world production, but it could be other things). Images should be alternated left and right as far as possible per WP:MOSIMAGES, this has been done at the start of the article, but not at the end. Fasach Nua (talk) 08:33, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alchemy symbols

Changed caption to Percentage of zinc output in 2006 by countries--Stone (talk) 15:41, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Zn-alchemy.jpg replaced by File:Zinc-alchemy symbols.png b/c the former looked like copies from the cited website (while I don't think that any representation of such old symbols can be under copyright, the website owner still might make a fuss). File:Luigi_Galvani,_oil-painting.jpg is only slightly looking offscreen and the image is too tall to be left aligned. So not much can be done there. Some changes made to improve left/right image placement but I don't think more can be done beyond that w/o having left aligned images directly below section headings, which is even a more serious breach of MOS. -- mav (talk) 01:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

From "Isotopes":-

The most common decay mode of an isotope of zinc with a mass number lower than 64 is electron capture. The decay product resulting from electron capture is an isotope of copper.

Is this equation supposed to represent electron capture? Electron capture should not increase the atomic mass. The reference provided does not state the daughter nuclide. Axl ¤ [Talk] 21:43, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The demonstration of beta decay shows the same problems; the mass should not change, and the reference is unhelpful. Axl ¤ [Talk] 21:48, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments and edits. Nergaal made some edits after you did but I'm not sure if those address your concerns. I'll have time to review everything this weekend. --mav (talk) 02:23, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, the "math" format looks better than Nergaal's default format. In particular, the electron format
e−
 looks awkward. Axl ¤ [Talk] 17:14, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I can clarify the equation. In electron capture a nuclear proton is converted into a neutron, Hence the atomic number decreases (one less proton in the nucleus) and the neutron number increases, but the atomic mass is virtually unchanged as n and p have almost identical masses. Petergans (talk) 10:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In the article this equation is used n
30Zn
 +
e−
 → n
29Cu
 --Stone (talk) 12:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Nergaal changed the equation after my comment above. I think that the original format style ("math" format) looks better than the current style. Axl ¤ [Talk] 18:30, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but you are one edit behind. Petergans changed it to math style already.--Stone (talk) 19:45, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Petergans repeated the mistake that I pointed out above. The format is now back in Nergaal's style (not "math" format). Ideally, I would appreciate a comment from Nergaal regarding the use of "math" format. Axl ¤ [Talk] 08:58, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

TEX-style or plane text, from my experience the chemists do not use the TEX-style in chemical equations, while the physics guys use it. (in German wiki most of the chemical equations are in TEX-style). But it is more a question of consensus than on principle problem. And with the problem of isotop conversion and radiation it is more a physics problem and the use of TeX-style is OK. The transuranium elements have mosdt equations in TeX-style.

Object -

Status: Not Done

The USGS reference gives basically the same numbers, Emsley is a readyly available book and the CRC book is roughly the same number. --stone
The USGS link would work. WhatisFeelings? (talk) 00:08, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Google Books url added. Now anybody can search and find the info themselves. --mav (talk) 14:44, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Was that added to citation [10] ?? because that still leads to the inaccessible book.WhatisFeelings? (talk) 00:08, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It was added to full Emsley reference information in the Bibliography section. Nature's Building Blocks is widespread in libraries and is for sale in any large bookstore. On top of that, the Google Books link allows anybody to search in the book to check facts cited to it. It is not possible to be more accessible for a proprietary book. --mav (talk) 23:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Status: Not Done

"but not all can be called exceptionally important" - this distinction then should be made clear. "because of their relationship to many biological functions" is moving in the appropriate direction.
zinc relative to other minerals is what is not made clear. "exceptionally important" is in comparison to, and the support statement is not a comparison statement.
Almost all "importants" now gone. --mav (talk) 23:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Status: Not Done

Obviously, it's not widely known, or remembered. No wonder I am curious about it. An encycopedia is not a judge of what is widely known, it cites its sources.
Are you saying that my grandmother and grandfather knows??? Are you saying a random person would know??? Is that what you're saying??????
It is __NOT__ widely known. You have made an Error. What you said is Inaccurate.
The people with the zic coated garden doors and with the zinc plated autobody in their cars, will think that this is done for anti-corrosion, so for me this is a widly known. --stone
Yes, later on though... well, if you can't think of better solutions... oh look at the next comment!
"The USGS is reflecting this" - then cite the most recent source.

Status: Not Done

The USGS link is in the next sentence already! (giving 55 for the US) 47 world wide .--Stone (talk) 10:22, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently, the term "important" is being used frequently in this article... basically use a much more specific term than the general and vague 'important'

Status: Not Done

This was changed some time ago to A widely used alloy of zinc is

Status: Not Done

Definitely, i'm just surprise it doesn't have an article.

Status: Not Done

The human body ha" - you can't have a one sentence paragraph; i'm sure this breaks some guideline in MOS.
Made the two things one para.--Stone (talk) 07:37, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure this breaks some guideline of MOS though, but prehaps it's safe to say that the editors of this article don't have style? if an editor has style, please refine the rest of the article.

Status: Done Seriously, one sentence paragraphs in an encyclopedia?...

links can be improved by being more selective. Status: Not Done

other comment: being quite bore of adding additional points, this is the last: the reading of some parts would be described as "choppy" WhatisFeelings? (talk) 21:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your review. I'll start to address your points soon. --mav (talk) 00:14, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well... at least you're appreciative that i must suffer this article; i'll accept that as a modestly refined token. WhatisFeelings? (talk) 00:45, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

--Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Changed the three pagenumbers to the right values. The later two are only one page articles.--Stone (talk) 13:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:51, 26 April 2009 [9].

Take Ichi convoy

[edit]
Nominator(s): Nick-D (talk) 02:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


This article covers a Japanese convoy operation of World War II whose failure had significant results for the New Guinea campaign. It has been peer reviewed and recently passed a Military History WikiProject A-class review, and I think that it may now meet the featured article criteria. Nick-D (talk) 02:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

images all fine Fasach Nua (talk) 08:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 13:15, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:51, 26 April 2009 [10].

Hue chemical attacks

[edit]
Nominator(s): YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 23:05, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article about incident on protestors being attacked in 1963. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 23:05, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:28, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It was already in the main body but I have added the symptoms to the lead. I am a bit hesitant to give a table for the candidate chemicals because that part is already skirting the edges of deduction/OR. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:51, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Split some YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:51, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Catholics were also de facto exempt from the corvée labor that the government obliged all citizens to perform and the government appropriated funding disproportionately to Catholic majority villages." should be "allocated funding..."?
  • "...and pelting them with tear gas grenades." Can we find an alternative to 'pelting'? Sounds POV.
  • "Government sound trucks rang out above the scene, urging the Buddhists—primarily high school and university students who had arrived on bicycles—to disperse." -> government sound trucks? What is the significance of bicycles?
A dictionary tells me a truck with a loudspeaker. Used a description instead. No indication of bicycle importance but it isn't hurting anyone I hope YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:33, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...at outdoor and room temperature.[32]" Maybe just room temperature? That's how engineers refer to 20 degrees C.
  • "...Ngo family ordered the special forces to attack Buddhist pagodas across the country" -> "...ordered special forces..."?
  • After reading the article I'm not terribly clear on what happened. Did the troops open the grenades, find they didn't work and pour the contents on the monks? Did they fire the grenades at the monks and the (failed) detonation covered the monks in chemicals? Dhatfield (talk) 16:12, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed these. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:33, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • An excellent first sentence.
  • "An inquiry determined that the chemical used in the attack was a liquid component from old French tear gas grenades that failed to vapourise." -> "...WWI era French tear gas grenades..." The sentence does not convey sufficiently just how old these grenades were. Minor preference: I think indicating that they were designed to vapourise, but failed to do so is appropriate: "...failed to vapourise." is perhaps too concise - "...failed to vapourise as designed." , "...as they should have done."?
  • "The incident prompted the United States to privately threaten to withdraw support for Diem's government." The significance of this threat in the historical context is somewhat lost in the article - similarly in Reaction and aftermath.
  • Reaction and aftermath is a confusing section. It contains Political repurcussions (perhaps a section on its own), details of the chemistry involved (interesting and relevant, but hardly Reaction and aftermath). Last two sentences of paragraph 3 don't fit with the rest of the paragraph.
  • In Incident "...and the incident became a public relations disaster for Diem. Rumours circulated that three people had died..." is really "Political repercussions" as well.
  • Led to assassination of the president and his replacement with...? I get the feeling that Aftermath is perhaps not far reaching enough: the Vietnam War was soon to follow. Dhatfield (talk) 01:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
done all of these. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 03:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nicely done - voting to support promotion to Featured. One or two more minor comments: "This led a deterioration in the military situation..." -> "led to..." and "...support for Diem's government; when the Americans finally reduced..." -> "...support for Diem's government and when the Americans finally reduced..."
thanks for spotting my typographical error YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:34, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:51, 26 April 2009 [11].

Changeling (film)

[edit]
Nominator(s): Steve T • C 12:45, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome! I'm happy to present my first FAC submission—Changeling (film)—for your appraisal, believing it meets all the featured article criteria. It's a shame the film itself will likely be remembered as a marginal one as far as Clint Eastwood's career goes, but its atypical development and the forthrightness of several people involved in the production provided more than enough information to craft a fascinating article. I hope you enjoy reading it. Dan Dassow (talk · contribs) also made significant contributions that should not go unrecognised, and the advice of Erik (talk · contribs) has been invaluable. To pre-empt the question, "what makes the following sources reliable?" I've taken the time to provide rationales for those most likely to attract attention:

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If it became a sticking point for others, the newsgroup could probably go without any great loss to the article; the section already states something about looking for other directors after Howard stepped down. The others would be a bigger loss, but I'm happy to see what kind of response they get. Thanks, Steve T • C 16:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On the abbreviation point, at first I thought you meant those in the article body, but you mean the references, right? The only ones I can find are BAFTA, AMC, BBC, MTV and EMAP. All these appear to be the names by which these organisations are most commonly known. I've expanded BAFTA, but do you think the others require the same? Steve T • C 00:16, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd at least go with AMC network. MTV and BBC are pretty well known under those names, but most folks aren't going to recognize EMAP, so it should probably be expanded also. The idea is to keep from forcing your readers to click through to another article just to figure out what the ref's publisher is. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:29, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done and done. Thanks, Steve T • C 00:46, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

images In the main, a great job getting non-free content, in what is a particularly difficult genre. I would however I oppose the use of File:Changeling_closing_sequence.png in the article, per WP:NFCC#8 and FAC#3 Fasach Nua (talk) 18:45, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. Mind if I ask why you feel it fails those criteria particularly? If it just needs a stronger rationale, please let me know. If it's totally irredeemable, I need to know that too. Thanks again, Steve T • C 18:56, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The text beside it is well written, the significance of the scene is explained well, I just dont think the image is needed to understand what the text is referring to, failing WP:NFCC#8. I give you 10/10 for effort, it's well worked into the article, it was obviously a considered desciion to include it, I just dont think it can ever be justified in terms of nfcc, no matter how hard you try. The free images are great but this non-free component lets down the article, having said that I wouldn't be heart broken if I was over-ruled, but the oppose stands, but this is not a !vote, and I could be wrong Fasach Nua (talk) 19:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Steve wrote the "Closing sequence" section some time before including the screenshot, and I had no real impression of the scene in reading the section at the time. When he included the screenshot, I found myself re-reading the section and looking back and forth between the text and the image. I found the image to be significant as a visual aid for the section. Readers, unlike you, will not have the image locked in their heads, so what can they really envision in their mind's eye? The section describes different aspects of the shot, including filming, visual effects, and themes (Chinatown), and I think the image's omission would be detrimental. —Erik (talk • contrib) 20:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Erik has provided a shorter and clearer explanation of the image's usefulness than I was going to (thanks!), so I'll limit myself to saying that I've decided not to remove the image for now, unless significant further opposition presents itself. Thanks for your comments and for taking the time to provide a full answer to my request for clarification. All the best, Steve T • C 08:48, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Like Fasach Nua, I do not think the image is needed; it is either showing something that needs no further illustration, or failing to help visualize what could need better explanation. The failings of this imagery could probably be blamed on the film's setting. Based on its FUR, caption, and text, the image is to illustrate "specific visual effects described in the article", which I take to mean special effects. Unfortunately, such effects these days are of photo-realistic standards, and people these days (let alone the future) readily know what these effects entail (seamless replacement of on-screen elements with digital effects); as the effects are of "real-life" structures (unlike non-fictional settings that require a different mindset to imagine), readers do not need further illustration (they have a fair idea of how old buildings and cars look like). Regarding the Chinatown comparison, unless the reader has watched the older film or has seen a similar screenshot from it, how do they gain further understanding from this Changeling screenshot (and I for one have not watched Chinatown)? It would be akin to telling someone that car A resembles car B, when the listener has seen neither car. What perks me as a possible FUR is the mention of what the scene should convey (although I feel this image would still be lacking in this aspect): "scene should allow room for emotional reflection." However, it is Michael Owens's (what is his exact role?) idea, and does not seem to be earning any notable comments or critiques from reviewers; hence such a purpose and accompanying rationale would be of insignificance. On its own, the image is just a photo of a street. Jappalang (talk) 08:42, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking the time to look at this. I'm going to think about it for a little while, and if I can't think of an adequate rebuttal, or provide good secondary sources (Owens was the VFX supervisor) that go to the "emotional reflection" point, I'll likely go ahead and remove it. Thanks again, Steve T • C 10:38, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
An entire section is devoted to the design of the specific closing shot of this particular film, and the stringency that denies the visual aid for the section is appalling. It is easy to shrug off the screenshot once you are exposed to it; are you telling me that if you never saw an image for this section, you'd be okay with the lack of an illustration? I saw the section before and after the image, and it helps this particular reader to see it. Please remember that your claim of familiarity with "old buildings" is very American-centric; this film made its splash in territories outside the United States. In addition, the section breaks down the details of the particular shot. If readers saw the shot by themselves, your "photorealistic" argument is exactly why it benefits them to see what is computer generated (streetcars) and what is not (downtown set extension). There are very few film articles on Wikipedia that have such an intricate breakdown of a film's visual effects (they are instead riddled with "fun" screenshots like here), so as someone who proposed and drafted WP:FILMNFI to improve standards, I am amazed that this screenshot still cannot meet them. —Erik (talk • contrib) 14:00, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for chipping in with such eloquent defences for the image's inclusion. The application of fair-use use for images is an area I'm not that familiar with, which is why I've been keen to defer to the judgement of others in this particular case, and probably why I've been hesitant to mount a determined defence myself. Everyone in this discussion has made coherent points, both pro- and anti-inclusion. The main issue seems to be that whatever is in the image may already have been adequately explained in the text, i.e. that it doesn't aid our readers' understanding. This seems to be a bit of a judgement call; after all, doesn't a strict interpretation essentially prevent the inclusion of any fair use image? I would think it difficult to find any that can't be described via the text in some way, and where we draw the line does seem to be rather fuzzily-defined, largely down to individual preference. So perhaps only someone with the experience of reading the article before and after the image's inclusion is able to say for certain whether it enhanced their understanding. I'm wondering if either of the two editors who don’t believe the image is necessary would be able to point me in the direction of one they've come across recently (preferably in a film, or related media, article) that they feel does meet the criteria; this might give me better understanding of the issues related to this image. Many thanks, Steve T • C 11:09, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect that ones perspective on whether to include the image is driven by whether they are primarily a Visual learning or audio learner. I believe that Wikipedia articles should in generally address both styles of learning and thus favor the inclusion of the image. --Dan Dassow (talk) 11:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Illustrating old buildings is not what the picture was meant for as fair use. A public domain picture of such buildings would be in a better position to do so. (As pointed above, the image page specifically states "specific visual effects described in the article".) American-centric? I am not an American, but there have been enough TV documentaries, books, films, and school lessons (history, geography) that I have at least a passing familiarity with 18th-20th century local, American and European architecture. It is not unreasonable to expect that other readers would have similar qualifications (we are certainly not asking readers to visualize Byzantine architecture). Steve, you are right in that it is a judgment call (as most of what FAC is when subjective measurements are called into question). I can only say that based on the rationale (and purpose) given, the picture fails to present a strong case for fair use in my opinion. On what images I think are qualify for fair use, these are a few of the most recent I have seen: File:Lion Turtle Sage02d.jpg in Sozin's Comet: The Final Battle (key: art style), File:Bigissue.jpg in Street newspaper (key: definition of "professional" quality that brought dissension). You can also read Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Noël Coward and Wikipedia:Peer review/Star Trek: The_Motion Picture/archive1 for my opinions on their fair use images. Jappalang (talk) 01:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Though the decision might ultimately be to remove the image, what I do recognise is that the "Purpose of use" is very poorly described. I've rewritten this with two specific points in mind: #1 The filmmakers' introducing the shot to create an atmosphere of "emotional reflection" for audiences, an intent that I don't think can be easily conveyed with words alone. #2 The provision of specific reference points for readers when studying the corresponding article text, which breaks down the details of how the shot was imagined, constructed, which elements are computer-generated, etc. Steve T • C 11:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC) EDIT: out-of-date. Steve T • C 23:02, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A better, more comprehensive FUR is forthcoming. I'll drop a note here after I've had a chance to write it up and add the required text to the article and image page. Steve T • C 15:33, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Both the accompanying text and the "purpose of use" have now been substantially rewritten; I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Many thanks, Steve T • C 22:55, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The purpose of the rationale is better; I suggest noting that the emotional intent is guided by the use of perspective and activity (human and vehicular) in the image. By the way, what do you mean by "to add Massive extras."? Note that the oppose is Fasach Nua's and is his to strike; my comments here are to explain why the image could fail the criteria for fair-use. Jappalang (talk) 01:45, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Massive is right, though you're not the first to question it, so I'll have a stab at making it clearer that these are digital extras; I'll also do as you suggest and add a little more to the purpose of use before contacting Fasach Nua for reappraisal. Many thanks for your help, Steve T • C 07:12, 17 April 2009 (UTC) EDIT: Linked Massive in the section; it's a little close to the previous instance of the link, but I think that's acceptable to resolve the ambiguity. Steve T • C 21:27, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fasach Nua contacted. Steve T • C 07:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments dealt with
  • Comment: What's the purpose of the real background information to the murders and such? I feel like we should only need an overview, and such detail after the principal sections that it relates to (the plot, writing, development) seems odd. --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs (talk) 13:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Closure? :) A two-hour film, no matter how accurate the writer claims it to be, can only ever be an abridgement of the facts in a case of this scope. I felt it important to fill in some of those gaps for the interested reader, to provide that wider context, maybe see where it differed from the history (e.g. Sarah Louise Northcott), and—perhaps most importantly—tell what happened to the main protagonists after the film ended. Steve T • C 13:57, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Huh? You mean the film wasn't completely true?! :P I dunno, I just feel like since it's just a straightforward summary (leaving the compare and contrast bits to readers, rather than spelling it out) it would make more sense trimmed down and stuck before development. --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs (talk) 14:40, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • The placement is definitely something we've toyed with. Previous versions had it adjacent to a "Premise" section, others put it right at the end. I'll take a look at alternative positions again. As for trimming it down, you make a good point, but if you don't mind I'm going to hold off for now on making any major edits to the section; it's the first day, and others might have a different opinion to both of us. If it does seem like a shorter section is called for, the two subsections can be merged quite easily, with the first subsection the main casualty as it repeats a lot of information from the "Plot" section. Steve T • C 16:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I've experimented with several different formats. Here is the section as currently written and positioned, this is the same text positioned just after the "Plot" section, this is a trimmed version positioned as it is currently, and this is the shortened version positioned after "Plot". My preference is, as you'd expect, the first, but comments and suggestions are more than welcome. Steve T • C 00:41, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • My preference is for the last one. I think it makes the most logical sense to immediately contrast the plot with what really happened, especially since the development is based on this historical happening, and the trimmed version still gets the important gist (and differences from the movie). --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs (talk) 20:52, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I found it strange that the film's star Angelina Jolie is not mentioned until the end of the second paragraph of the lead section, despite starring in the film. Seems like she should be mentioned in the same breath as Eastwood and Straczynski (at least in their neighborhood), and certainly before Ron Howard and Brian Grazer. —Erik (talk • contrib) 20:40, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Have you seen that infobox poster image? She's about to devour that poor boy! I definitely wouldn't want to upset her, so I'll tweak accordingly. Do you think she should be added in the same breath as director and writer, or simply named in brackets after "woman"? Steve T • C 21:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • So you saw this, too?! I think that it may be best to include her in the opening sentence ("starring Angelina Jolie") and then mention "(Jolie)" beside "woman". It feels like pushing a square peg through a round hole to first mention her in the midst of the premise. —Erik (talk • contrib) 21:23, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, I didn't see that link! Though I'm glad I wasn't the only one to think that about the image. I've tried Jolie in the lead sentence, but I'm not sure if it doesn't look a bit cumbersome. A solution might be to remove Straczynski and introduce him at the beginning of the second paragraph. What do you think? Steve T • C 08:08, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think that to include Jolie successfully, you need to rewrite the first few sentences with a different tone. For example, "...and written by J. Michael Straczynski. The film stars Angelina Jolie as Christine Collins, a real-life figure from 1920s Los Angeles who is reunited with her missing son—only to realize he is an impostor." Not the best example, but the inclusion requires some more shuffling around. —Erik (talk • contrib) 13:15, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've nailed it. Now you can see why I've had to make over 700 edits to this article. :) Thanks for the pointers. Steve T • C 14:17, 4 April 2009 (UTC) Edited link. Steve T • C 21:38, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I've never been a fan of quote boxes in the reception section, they always seem to unnecessarily stand out as if these particular reviewers were better than the others. What doesn't help its cause is the fact that there are 2 boxes, and they are both praising the film (or the actress). There isn't a balance in them. Though I would personally like to see them go altogether, if they stay I think one should be something that doesn't praise the film.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 01:29, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I suppose I included the quote boxes so the reader wasn't confronted by a large wall of review text; towards the bottom of the article there wasn't really any scope to include images, so I thought the boxes would break it up somewhat. I'm not sure what you mean by both praising the film; the second box (Dargis) is negative. Steve T • C 07:09, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Actually, you're right to single that second quote out; long after putting it in, I can now see it's not immediately obvious that it's supposed to be negative—at the time the wider context of Dargis' overwhelmingly negative review was forefront in my mind. Later on I'll see if I can find a more appropriate and clearly negative quote to use. I've also reinserted the image size on the closing sequence image; I've tried it on several different screen sizes; due to the aspect ratio, it becomes almost useless as a reference for the purpose Erik describes above when at thumbnail size. Do you have an opinion on the strength of the fair-use claim, btw? I think it's solid, but the more opinions I get the better I can judge its appropriateness. Thanks, Steve T • C 07:43, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I haven't looked at fair use. I just did passing maintenance on things, but I do plan to read the whole article and provide a more in-depth review (looks good from the naked eye).  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:21, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Looked at it, and it seems alright. I mean, you cannot really tell it's digital...but I guess that's the point.;) Um, this line--"Owens constructed the scene by first building the digital environment around the live action in the foreground. He then added the background before filling the scene with vehicles and people.[1]"--is a little confusing. The first sentence sounds like he built (I added "digital", so please correct if that was wrong, as it wasn't clear if he built a real set or a fake one) it and it was added, but then the second sentence says that it was added later. If the second sentence is correct, then should it not be something more like, "Owens first built a digital environment for the live action..."?? That also brings up another question I had. Did he create an environment for the foreground, or did a create an environment for the background which was placed against a live action foreground"? It currently reads, confusingly, like the stuff he created was for the foreground. If the LA was in the foreground, then I would drop the "in the" and change it to "...live action foreground scene". IDK, I need clarification on what it's trying to say.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 13:01, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Here are the things I found. Some are questions about what a statement is saying; some are structural things; and some are general opinions on possible rewrites. If you disagree with anything, just leave me an explanation and I'll be cool with that.

Lead
  • "Changeling explores female disempowerment, political corruption, child endangerment and the effects of violence." – The effects of violence on what? If it's just in general, ok, but everything else was so specific that I thought maybe they were looking at the effects of violence on a particular population.
  • "Straczynski learned of the case from a contact at Los Angeles City Hall." – What case? The Chicken Coop case, or Collins boy case?
  • "Straczynski learned of the case from a contact at Los Angeles City Hall. He spent a year researching the historical record, which he said shaped 95% of the script." – You could probably turn this into a compound sentence, which would make the whole statement a bit stronger and less short winded (just an opinion).
  • "The shooting script was Straczynski's first draft and his first produced film screenplay." – Possible rewrite as, "Changling was the first screenplay of Stracznski's that was produced, and Eastwood chose to film his first draft." – Or something like that. The way it is now kind, IDK, reads funny (To Me). Maybe it doesn't to anyone else.
  • "Visual effects supplemented scenes with skylines, backdrops and digital extras." – Should it be, "Visual effects were used to supplement the skyline and backdrops in certain scenes, as well as insert digital extras"? I say this because part of it says that visual effects replace skylines and backdrops, but it doesn't explain what they are replacing them with. The final part suggests that digital extras are being supplemented for visual effects, instead of the visual effects being used to create those digital extras…if that makes sense.
    • I'm not entirely sure what you mean. "Supplement" here is used to indicate an addition or enhancement (e.g. "Vitamins supplemented his meagre diet.") Are you thinking of "supplant"? Steve T • C 08:22, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • No no, that's what I was thinking. It just sounded odd when using the term "with". The way it reads, visual effects were enhancing scenes that already have skylines, backdrops and digital extras. But, I think the meaning you are going for is, "Visual effects supplemented scenes by adding skylines, backdrops, and digital extras."
        • The "by adding" makes it sound as if an entity called "Visual effects" was the one to add skylines, backdrops and digital extras. I think the problem here is that I recast the sentence some time ago to eliminate as many redundant words as possible. In doing so, I also changed it from active to passive. If I switch it back, that should eliminate the problem. Steve T • C 14:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Eastwood's customary laid-back directing style extended to Changeling's shoot; actors and crew noted the calmness of the set and short working days." – if this is so common, is it really necessary for the lead paragraphs?
    • Included because a good portion of the "Filming" section is devoted to this theme; as the project developed I noticed more and more people, both involved and uninvolved with the production, commenting on the way he directed this. So it seemed odd to devote a whole paragraph to it in the article body yet not mention it in the lead. Steve T • C 20:25, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Changeling premiered at the 61st Cannes Film Festival on May 20, 2008, where it met with critical acclaim." – You know some of the rules better than I do, but should this be "…where it was met with critical acclaim." It almost sounds, currently, like it met with some individual named critical acclaim.
  • "It performed modestly at the North American box office, but did well internationally, earning $111.5 million worldwide." – What's "modestly"? How good is "well"? It might be best to just state the facts of the numbers (maybe in tangent with the budget of the film).
    • Box Office was $35.7M (US) and $75.8M (Foreign) for a total of $111.5M according to Box Office Mojo. Since the film is still in being shown in a number of countries, the foreign total may increase. --Dan Dassow (talk) 04:09, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • So...is that agreement that the numbers would be better? This isn't my article (i.e., I'm not the primary editor so I don't want to make dramatic changes to things without consulting first and this, though not huge, certainly isn't a simple copy edit).  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 04:21, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • To clarify, there are a couple of minor results left to add in, unlikely to tally more than a few hundred thousand. To answer the other point, that the film did middling business in the US and better elsewhere isn't my opinion, it's cited in the "Box office" section. Do you think the comment on how the film was perceived to have done is inappropriate? Numbers alone can be meaningless to someone unfamiliar with how much of a return makes a hit/miss. Steve T • C 07:25, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'm generally not a fan of introducing perspective on that in the lead itself, because you aren't going to go into detail about how "CEO of Studio felt," or "Industry analyst say...". I think, in the least, if someone else is using those terms it may be best to put those sources in the lead next to them, because it's a subjective opinion (even if it's professional). IMPO.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 14:02, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • The sources use "middling", "so-so" and words to that effect ("modest" is my paraphrase). I previewed a direct quote in the lead, but it doesn't look great with the informal language, so I've tweaked the statement to present fact only. Steve T • C 20:25, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Plot
  • "Reverend Gustav Briegleb (Malkovich) publicizes Christine's plight and rails against the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) for its incompetence, corruption and the extrajudicial punishment meted out by its "Gun Squad", led by Chief James E. Davis (Feore)." – Is there a better word to use than "rails", maybe something more commonly used? I just think that people rarely think of "rails" when they think of protesting or attacking someone verbally.
    • I personally like rails, since it evokes the images of a minister making comments from the pulpit. However, it is not common usage. Other possibilities would be severely criticizes, castigates, excoriate, scolds, reprimands, lambastes and chastens. --Dan Dassow (talk) 04:09, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Several months later, the LAPD tells Christine that her son has been found alive." – Several months after…her son goes missing, the reverend starts publicly bashing the police? Since it isn't clear when Gustav learned about the boy, it's not really clear which events these months proceed. To clarify, if Gustav learns right when it happens that's different than if he had learned a couple of months later.
  • "After Christine confronts Jones with physical discrepancies between "Walter" and her son, Jones arranges for a doctor to visit her." – Medical doctor? Psychiatrist? There's lots of doctors, so this might need clarification, especially given the following statement about her being unfit.
  • "A newspaper prints a story implying Christine is an unfit mother. Briegleb tells Christine the story was planted by police to discredit her." – These might work better as one sentence separated by a comma and a conjunction of some sort.
  • "Christine tells her story to the press; as a result, Jones sends her to Los Angeles County Hospital's "psychopathic ward"." – Do they refer to it as the "psychopathic ward", is that why it's in quotations? Otherwise, you could drop them and just use the typical name "psychiatric ward".
Development
  • "Straczynski had spent twenty years working in television, writing and producing shows such as Babylon 5 and Jeremiah, and felt he needed a break from the medium,[4] so he spent a year researching the Collins case through archived criminal, county courthouse, city hall and city morgue records." – Could probably simplify this to just: "After twenty years working in television, Stracynski felt he need a break from the medium, so he…" We really don't need the extra bit about those specific shows.
  • "After Howard stepped down, it looked as if the film would not be made, despite admiration for the script in the industry (a situation Straczynski said he had "gotten very Zen" about)." – The last bit, in parentheses, seems unnecessary. If this was his article, I could understand it.
  • "Straczynski said five A-list directors were interested." – Do we know who these A-listers are? If not, then it's probably vague enough that it can be removed without much harm.
  • "Eastwood said his memories of growing up during the period meant whenever a history dealing with it landed in his hands, he "redoubled his attention" upon it." – This sounds odd. "whenever a history dealing with it…"? Is it supposed to be, "whenever a script dealing with the history lands in his hands"? I'm also not sure if there should be a comma after that, because if you remove the dependent clause the beginning is a fragment.
Writing
  • "Straczynski described specific visual cues in the screenplay, such as in the scene of Sanford Clark's confession to Detective Ybarra. Clark's flashback to a falling axe is juxtaposed with the crumbling ash from Ybarra's cigarette." – this is a little confusingly worded. I think I understand what it's saying, but it kind of just jumps in on the scene, with no introduction. Maybe something as simple as "In the scene, …" would make all the difference. IDK.
  • "In common with most of the cues, Eastwood shot the scene as written." – Is "common" the right word here? I've never heard the phrase "In common with".
  • "Among the changes Straczynski made from the historical record was to omit Northcott's mother—who participated in the killings—from the story. He also depicted Northcott's trial as taking place in Los Angeles, though it was held in Riverside." – Shouldn't this be up near the top of the section, where you first talk about the changes the writer made (i.e. when he had to embellish some of the psycho ward scenes)?
    • I've incorporated some, but not all of these recommendations. On the first point, it already says "such as in the scene..." but I've made it slightly clearer. And while I think we're safe with "in common with", I've simplified it to "As with". I've just spent a few minutes previewing different places for the mother and trial details, but they don't seem to fit particularly well in that second paragraph, either before or after the psychiatric ward details. I think it's probably OK as it is, as the section as a whole discusses little changes here and there. Thanks, Steve T • C 13:38, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That will have to do it for tonight. My eyes are shot. It's been a good read so far. Most of my comments are really just opinionated stuff. I stopped with the Writing section. I'll continue more tomorrow at some point.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 02:47, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Quick comment - I was reading the recent changes and noticed this: "After the authorities released Collins, she won the second of two lawsuits; though Jones was ordered to pay Collins $10,800, he never did." - Nothing about lawsuits is mentioned previously in this section.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:23, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Aye; I think an earlier version said something along the lines of (from memory): "After the authorities released Collins, she sued the police department and won the second of two lawsuits; Jones was ordered..." In my perhaps over-zealous redundancy drive before this FAC I merged the two ideas, believing it put across the same information in fewer words. If it doesn't, it can be clarified with "After the authorities released Collins, she sued the city and won the second of two lawsuits..."—though I do think it implicit that if she won a lawsuit she must have sued someone. Steve T • C 22:38, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • It just comes out of the blue, with no context because you don't know who she was suing. You see "Jones", but they are not identified until that point. Since the cast info isn't until later, and you identify in the lead that some characters are actual and some are composites, it's hard to tell who was real and who wasn't until later in the article. If that makes any sense.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:44, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments: Last comments, same shtick as before. I’ve noticed that you’ve made corrections while I was doing this review so ignore anything you’ve already taken care of.
Casting
  • How come some of the cast has plot descriptions and some do not? I don’t generally like “cast lists”, because they tend to breed unnecessary plot information (i.e. over time editors come in and add more to the description). Because of the size of the article, I think you could (and I’m just throwing this out there...it’s your preference as to what you want) possibly cut all of the plot info and condense everything into basic prose paragraphs. You’ve identified the actors in the plot, so you could save the space from “Jolie plays Collins”; eliminate redundant character plot descriptors (e.g., Jones is a police detective...), and be left with casting information and character characterizations. Just a thought on how to cut some redundancies and cut back on the size of the article – if they aren’t identified in the plot, then you can still identify them in prose format, it’s just a way to remove the ones you already have covered in the plot in fine detail.
  • ” She said the most difficult part was relating to the character, because Collins was relatively passive throughout. ” – I sure you mean “throughout the film”, but I think it’s best to either say that, or just drop the “throughout” since “relatively passive” suggests that at some point she wasn’t passive.
  • ” Donovan expressed his fascination and disbelief at the power Jones wielded in the city, and at his ability to have Collins committed based on his word alone. ” – My WORD says the comma is not supposed to be there. IMPO, I think it’s ok. Just pointing it out.
  • ”He worked around scheduling conflicts with television series Generation Kill, which he was filming in Africa at the same time. ” – Should there be a “the” after “with”? (Sorry if I don’t make any corrections myself. I’m at work and have to limit my Wiki editing)
  • ” Hahn is a defense attorney known for taking high-profile cases. He represents Collins and in doing so plants the seeds of the overturning of "Code 12" internments—used to jail or commit those deemed difficult or an inconvenience. These were often women committed to the psychopathic ward without due process. ” – My only problem with this is that more than half isn’t about Hahn, but Code 12. Obviously you need to explain what Code 12 is, but I could have sworn that was done in one of the early sections. If not, then it’s ok...but it kind of leads back to my original point about the prose paragraphs, since this section is supposed to be about Hahn and/or Pierson, but deals more with what that law actually is.
Locations and design
  • ” Location scouting revealed that many of the older buildings in Los Angeles had been torn down, including the entire neighborhood where the real Collins lived. ” – Maybe we don’t need “real”? I cannot think of why someone would confuse the film Collins with the real Collins in this instance.
  • ” Suburban areas in the nearby cities of San Dimas, San Bernardino and Pasadena doubled for 1920s Los Angeles instead. ” – “Instead” might be redundant.
  • ” It was used for interiors and exteriors, and stood in for some adjacent areas. ” – Used “stood in” twice, might think of a way to change it up.
  • ” The production sourced around 150 motor cars dating from 1918 to 1928 from vintage car collectors throughout Southern California. ” – Should a comma be inserted after 1928? It reads a little off without a pause.
  • ” The visual effects team retouched shots of Los Angeles City Hall—on which construction was completed in 1928—to remove weathering and newer surrounding architecture. ” – Possibly replace “retouched” since you just used it in the sentence prior.
    • Edited section to incorporate the recommendations, save "instead"; I think something is needed to link the idea to the previous sentence (all the older buildings had been torn down... those cities were used instead). Steve T • C 19:55, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Principal Photography
  • ” The budget was $55 million.[42] Universal Pictures financed and distributed the film. ” – Could you merge these two, maybe into something like ”Universal Pictures financed the film for $55 million, and also distributed it. ” ... Just a thought because the first sentence just seems to plain.
  • ”Ron Howard and Imagine Entertainment partner Brian Grazer produced, alongside Robert Lorenz and Eastwood for Malpaso Productions. Gary D. Roach and Joel Cox edited the film, and Tim Moore and Jim Whitaker were executive producers.[43][44] ” – Is all of this necessary? It seems to just reiterate what’s in the infobox, and since you really don’t talk about any of these people in this section I wonder if the article would be hurt if it was removed.
  • ”...the town hall—at the time one of the tallest buildings in the city, the city center—which was one of the busiest in the world, and the "perfectly functioning" Pacific Electric Railway—the distinctive red streetcars of which feature closely in two scenes. ” – Is there a way to break this up? Emdashes are great, but should be used sparingly, and there are 3 in this sentence alone. Also, “...tallest buildings in the city, the city center” is a little clumsily written. The “city center” part seems to stick out as not belonging.
  • ” To improve the pacing, he also cut scenes of a political nature focusing on Reverend Briegleb. ” – Could probably simplify this down to “..cut scenes involving Reverend Briegleb”, since we do not know why he cut those political natured ones, it’s best to just keep it simple.
  • ” He said too often a story aimed to finish at the end of a film, whereas he preferred to leave it open. ” – I had to read this several times before I realized exactly what he was saying. Is there a way to reword this so that it’s easier to comprehend? Maybe it was just me.
Cinematography
  • ” He used Kodak Vision 500T 5279 film stock because it provided improved blacks. Stern used Panavision C-Series lenses, with neutral density filters mounted behind to allow adjustment of the F-number. ” – Could probably condense and combine these two into one compound sentence, since they are strongly connected.
  • ” Stern lit the tiles from above to produce a soft, warm light that was intended to evoke the period through tones close to antique and sepia. ” – Think we should possibly link “sepia”, because I don’t know about you but I have no idea what sepia is. I know from a quick look that there is Sepia (color) and Photographic print toning#Sepia toning.
  • ”Stern used stronger skypans of an intensity not usually used for key lighting to reduce contrasts when applying daytime rain effects, as a single light source tended to produce harder shadows. ” – I think “of an intensity not usually used for key lighting” should be encased in commas, as it’s an extra clarifying point that if removed wouldn’t change the sentence.
Visual Effects
Overview
  • ” The effects work consisted mainly of peripheral additions: architecture, vehicles,[55] crowds and furniture. ” – How come the source is in the middle of the sentence, and there isn’t one at the end? If source 46 is supposed to be referencing the tail end of this sentence then it may be best to place an additional cite at the end of this sentence since half of it goes to one location and half to another.
    • It does look strange. Essentially, the sentence is an amalgam of two near-identical statements from separate sources. Both say that the effects work consisted mainly of peripheral additions, but use different examples: one goes for architecture and vehicles, the other for crowds and furniture. I'm wary of separating a cite from the exact statement, but I think this one survives being moved to the end of the sentence. Steve T • C 20:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Digital Extras
  • ” Massive worked well until this stage; the effects team had to intervene to move the digital pedestrians to avoid having to remove the live-action extras from the shot. ” – I think “had to intervene” is extraneous, and could probably be dropped. Also, you could possibly change “having to remove” to just “removing”.
  • ” To eliminate inaccuracies that develop when creating a digital extra of different proportions to the motion capture performer, CIS sent nine skeleton rigs to House of Moves before work began; consequently, House of Moves had time to properly adapt the rigs to its performers, resulting in motion capture data that required very little editing in Massive. ” – This would probably work the same without the semi-colon, and just using a period. That, and also remove “consequently”. Based on the text before and after, it doesn’t seem to be needed.
  • ”...displacement maps in the air shader were linked to the motion capture and would animate wrinkles in trousers and jackets. ” – Possibly change “and would animate” to simple “to animate”... less words, same meaning. But, you may be turned off by the two “tos” in the sentence. Your choice.
Disempowerment of Women
  • ” She said it had as a result been subject to sexist disdain, comparing that with the sexism shown to the women in Changeling and those who vied for high political office in 2008. ” – Is there a way to reword the opening, it’s kind of confusing.
  • ” Miller surmised that attitudes towards independent, career-minded women had not changed significantly in the intervening years: ” – Though there is no concrete rule about it, “towards” is typically an English word, and not an American one (we use “toward”), kind of in the same vain as “amongst” or “beknownst” (see http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/toward.html).
Corruption in political hierarchies
  • ” ...the film also focuses on issues relevant to the modern era through its historical lens. ” – I’ve noticed this before and it occurred to me, should we be saying “modern era”? In 10 years, if Wiki is still around, the “modern era” will be different than it is now..so to speak. Maybe we should say the 2000s? It’s a little funky, but more accurate in the long haul.
    • I've tried several alternatives and none are as elegant, but I do think we're safe with "modern era". That, to me, refers to anything from 20–30 years either side of the now, perhaps longer, especially as the paragraph gives it context by referring to events in Poland in 1980. Essentially, all it's saying is "in your (comparatively recent) lifetime, not the ruddy 1920s". Steve T • C 21:20, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strategy
Box office
  • ” By December 5, 2008, the number of theaters dropped to 681, for a return of $34.7M; the end of December saw the number of theaters fall to 125. ” – Is all this necessary? All films eventually circulate out of release, and this seems to be just fluff...unless it can be shown that there was something unique about this particular decline in theaters.
  • ” Releases in major markets in January 2009 included Germany, South Korea and Russia. ” – Where’s the subject in this sentence?
  • Did the film break any records (other than Eastwood’s personal records)?
    • Answers: #1 good point; I was attempting to craft some kind of coherent narrative, but we can stand to lose some of that. #2 fixed. #3 Nope; "performed modestly", remember. :) Link to changes. Steve T • C 21:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reception
Summary
  • What was the “Top Critics” percentage for Rotten Tomatoes? Is there a particular reason for not including them in the mix? Just curious.
    • No reason, only that the last time I checked it only listed about 5 critics, which at the time I considered too small a sample size for accurate statistics. After that I just forgot. Added. Steve T • C 22:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speaking of, ” and in the United Kingdom 83% of critics listed by Rotten Tomatoes gave Changeling a positive review. ” – I wouldn’t list this. The reason being is that the UK version of RT is the same as the US version, with the exception that that UK version cites a fewer number of the critics than the US version. Thus, it provides a less representative sample of the same critics. At least, last time I checked they were all the same ones.
    • This isn't cited to the uk.rottentomatoes site percentages, but a bona fide news story; it seemed notable enough to mention, as sources that specifically discuss a film's critical consensus tend to be thin on the ground. Steve T • C 22:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • The source isn't from the UK-RT, but that's where they get their info from (which was 2 days after the release of the film, and thus had not leveled off yet...see links). This is the regular Cream, and this is the UK Cream. You'll note that they're the same critics, the UK just calculates their average based on 12 reviews, whereas the US does 36 of them. The guy says "Tomatometer", so I assumed that's where he got it (as he's quoting the current readings of several other films as well). Now, on th other side (i.e. the non-Cream) the UK has 189 reviews total, which is the same as the US, but I do note that there are some different reviews (with some UK specific reviews present in the UK one). That is a more up-to-date number, which is 61%, and given that most films continue to grow in reviewer numbers will into their third and fourth weeks sometimes (I just recently updated Friday the 13th with another couple of reviews and it's been out since February), I think in the least the 83% was an early, now outdated number. But, I'm just throwing that out there. You've satisfied all my concerns, so I struck the "conditional" part of my support and have relabled this section "Resolved (2)". Great work.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 00:35, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • ”.. —Amy Ryan's excepted—...” Probably easier to just say “except Amy Ryan”.
  • Question. Is there a reason you chose to only use 5 critics’ view points (excluding the onetime usage of Wise at the end) to discussed the critical reception of the film? Don’t get me wrong, I like how you tackled just about every aspect of the film, it just felt like these were the only people that had any thoughts about the movie.
    • Any critics' summary section can only be a sampling; the important part is the consensus, IMO. All the individual critics' remarks are there for are to provide a flavour of the reaction to certain elements. In constructing the section I attempted to include those comments that seemed to represent the reception as a whole to those aspects described. Five main critics, with a couple of individual remarks from others, seemed sufficient for that. Steve T • C 22:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank concludes my review of the article. I think that was the longest article I have ever read from top to bottom. :D It was rather enjoyable reading everything that they did, so huge applause for that.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 16:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    • A huge thanks for the review; it's helped a lot, and given truth the old FAC cliché about uninvolved parties' being able to spot issues that the primary editor will miss. All the best, Steve T • C 22:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: When I saw a problem with the article I either made the correction or consulted with Steve. I have not actively participated in editing the article since February 23, 2009. I will look through the article in detail and make suggestions as appropriate. --Dan Dassow (talk) 03:29, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Conditional Support Providing the issues are dealt with above and minor edits are made I really think this is a brilliant film article. 've had my eye on this for some time and it has now been developed to the level I knew it would reach. I read this earlier - it is very well written and detailed covering the aspects of the film according to our guidelines in a balanced way and is well referenced. Congratulations on this article. Dr. Blofeld White cat 21:33, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support A terrific film article. It needs a very light copyedit, which I've started to do, but it's already of a writing standard superior to many FAs. One thing you need to do, Steve: pick a consistent numbering style and apply it throughout the article. You can express every number ten or higher as a figure (10, 14, 25, 250), or you can express every number ten or higher in words if two words or less (ten, fourteen, twenty-five, but 250). What you can't have is what you currently have, which is complete inconsistency. Please see Wikipedia:MOS#Numbers as figures or words. On the specific matter of the fair use image from the closing sequence, I'm surprised that this is contentious at all (though I haven't tracked the substance of the article and the image's rationale for that long). The use of the image completely follows both the spirit and the letter of our non-free content policy: its selection and specific nature of employment is unquestionably judicious and a clear aid to understanding. Far from "letting down" the side, this is model NFC use in a model Wikipedia article.DocKino (talk) 04:27, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for your kind words, and support. On the inconsistent figures/words issue, I went through the article before nomination to ensure all numbers ten or below were spelled out, that all those above ten were rendered as figures, all comparable quantities were consistent (1,000 theaters / 5 theaters), and that non-comparable adjacent quantities were in different formats ("Changeling was released in 15 theaters in nine markets..."). I've just been through it again and have corrected just two I'd missed in the "Development" section one in the "Historical context" section, and my mistaken assumption that the guideline recommended "one to ten" rather than "one to nine", but I can't see any other instances where the article doesn't comply; please feel free to slap me with any I've missed! Thanks again, Steve T • C 07:49, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:51, 26 April 2009 [44].

Federal Bridge Gross Weight Formula

[edit]
Nominator(s): ErgoSum88 (talk)

I am nominating this for featured article because I think that users will find this article both interesting and well-sourced. ErgoSum88 (talk) 21:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply Changed 1914->1913 and determined->estimated, these were honest mistakes. As far as the 1987 nytimes article, I could find no other source for how many bridges collapse each year. And after all, this figure is an estimate which I can imagine varies widely from year to year. As far as there being any "unsourced statements"... every last sentence, fact, and figure in this article is taken directly from a source. So if you would like to point out which statements are unsourced I would very much like to fix them. And yes, some of the prose was taken directly from government sources, which is perfectly legal and sometimes necessary when you are explaining a complicated legal issue such as this one in order to explain the exact intent of the law. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 13:58, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Update I have changed this section to better present the information available. 1987 was the year of another catastrophic bridge collapse and was probably the last year these kinds of figures were in the public eye. Although I have found a more recent source of reference, and have included it along with the old one. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 15:44, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have struck my oppose for now, although I haven't revisited in-depth. While it may be perfectly legal to copy and paste from government sources, that doesn't mean it's OK. For example: "These laws were enacted to protect earth and gravel-surfaced roads from damage caused by the iron and solid rubber wheels of early heavy trucks. By 1933, all states had some form of varying truck weight regulation." I don't see how how this is in any way a "complicated legal issue". Changing a few words around and not using quotation marks is not sufficient to avoid plagiarism. If you need to keep the wording, use quotation marks. Otherwise, recast the prose into your own words. How come there are no definitive sources for how many bridges collapse each year? Seems like this would be a statistic some one would keep track of. Also, some of your sources are missing authors. BuddingJournalist 16:23, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your definition of plagarism may be a little strict. I'm not sure a few sentences constitutes plagarism but I'm also not sure how else to reword that sentence. It is a simple statement not flowery prose. Also for the sake of international peace, the ((convert)) template cannot be used inside quotes for the numerous weights that are mentioned. I will quote it if necessary but there are lots of parts of that sentence I deleted for brevity. As far as the number of bridges, there I found another source for a more exact number and have added it. I realize my cite templates are sometimes incomplete and I will work on it asap. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 19:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dabs and external links were found up to speed using the toolbox checker tools.
  • Using WP:REFTOOLS, an issue with the ref formatting was found.
Yikes, thanks. I fixed that issue and now all the refs show up correctly. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 15:38, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes they are ;)--₮RUCӨ 15:45, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC) Oppose Unreferenced statements of opinion. Examples include "The formula is necessary in order to prevent the concentrated weight on a truck's axle from producing stress..." and "In order for an overweight truck to comply with the formula, more axles must be added, or the length between axles must be increased." and "In effect, the formula reduces the legal weight limit for shorter trucks with fewer axles (see table below)." Further, the references need to have the newspapers italicized (this is not the reason for the oppose, merely pointing it out in passing). Ealdgyth - Talk 18:21, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply How are these statements of opinion? They merely explain the law in words which are not found elsewhere. If you just look at the table, it shows that if you increase the distance between two axles the weight limit goes up. All you have to do is read the article to understand it is a simple factor of weight vs length vs number of axles. It is common sense if you increase the distance between two points of support the weight distributed between them is reduced if the weight is concentrated between the two points of support... anyway, I have added a cite for the paragraph. All statements are supported by the cite after the fact, so if there is more than one sentence the cite is added at the last sentence. I am puzzled as to how anyone could call these statements of opinion. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 19:24, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's the "The formula is necessary" part. If you'd said a pure statement of fact that "The concentrated weight of a truck's axle produces stress on the road" that's a fact. The adding of the point that this specific formula is necessary makes it an opinion. I'm sure there are other formula's that would also work to reduce stress. On the second one, it's also possible to comply with the formula by removing weight, isn't it? By only mentioning two possibilities, it's more opinion than fact. The third is more borderline, but the "in effect" gets away from strictly facts into grey areas of opinion. It's always safer to just cite everything, honestly. Not everything is going to be obvious to everyone reading your article. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:35, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. The reasoning is mentioned in the references, perhaps you missed it. It says:

Bridges on the Interstate System highways are designed to support a wide variety of vehicles and their expected loads. As trucks grew heavier in the 1950s and 1960, something had to be done to protect bridges. The solution was to link allowable weights to the number and spacing of axles. Axle spacing is as important as axle weight in designing bridges. In Figure 1A, the stress on bridge members as a longer truck rolls across is much less than that caused by a short vehicle as shown in Figure 1B, even though both trucks have the same total weight and individual axle weights. The weight of the longer vehicle is spread out, while the shorter vehicle is concentrated on a smaller area.

So the idea that this formula (which is the title of the article) was created to protect roads and bridges is a fact. I have added the words "or weight must be removed" to the second sentence you pointed out, which was never an opinion but simple omittance of options. As for the third sentence, the whole point of the formula is outlined in the main diagram which is at the top of the page. The shorter truck has a smaller weight limit... that is a fact. That is how the formula actually protects the bridge, by making small trucks that weigh as much as the big ones illegal. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 21:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Update I have gone through the entire article and added cites for any sentence, line, or end of paragraph that did not already have one. Being the sole contributor to this article, it is easy for one to overlook things. Hopefully this should remove any gray area between what is fact or not. As far as the use of the words necessary in describing the purpose of this formula as "necessary to protect roads and bridges" these are not my words and certainly not my opinion. This is only my second experience with FAC, so I apologize for being verbose, or if I came across as indignant. I am familiar with WP policies and I most certainly have not inserted any personal opinions or original research into this article. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry if I came across as combative. It's been a bad week, and I was probably a bit terser than I needed to be. I'll be running through the sources shortly, and anticipate striking the oppose. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to review this article, and please feel free to make any changes to the wording that you think are necessary (lol, theres that word again). --ErgoSum88 (talk) 13:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Aside from that the article is pretty well written, IMO, and an interesting read. Dave (talk) 02:25, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I have deleted the word "clearly" and fixed the parentheses. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 19:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
With the above mentioned changes, I support promotion to FA. Dave (talk) 16:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional support by Fowler&fowler

I will go out on a limb and offer conditional support for the reasons that this article sheds light on something (i.e. weigh stations) many people see while driving long distance (at least in the US) and vaguely wonder about, that topics such as this are seldom found on FAC, that the few paragraphs that I have read thus far seem reasonably well written, and that such topics (hopefully) lie outside the pale of the POV-pushing that can be enervating for both readers and reviewers alike. However, having said that, I feel that the article needs some major fixes. If the author feels that it will take him/her more time than an FAC allows, then it might be wise to first fix those problems and then sail through FAC easily next time around. Anyway, here is a list of must-dos:

As I said earlier, it may be that doing all this will take you more time than you might have right now. In that case, the wise thing to do would be to withdraw the article from FAC, fix those issues and then resubmit. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:32, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply About the introduction, I agree. I'll work on this. As far as the sources, most of this page is cited from official government websites, reports, documents, etc. In fact I could cite the entire article strictly from about two or three government websites, however I added more for the sake of variety. There is so much information here I did not want to overwhelm the reader ("Requirement #4 Length. It stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style)." I was merely concerned with the basic purpose and use of the formula, although during my resarch I did become aware of alternative formulas and other things which you suggested I should add. That would not be a bad idea, although I don't believe FA requirements are that strict. If everyone else agrees with you, I'm fine with that. But you're right that its a little too much to do right now and I don't plan to withdraw. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 19:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Update The introduction has been expanded to three healthy paragraphs, which should be sufficient. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 18:25, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Response by Fowler&fowler

It certainly reads better, but I feel that it still lacks a compelling rationale. In other words the lead needs to explain to the reader why such formulas were even considered. For example, what were the statistics of bridge collapses (and resulting mortality) before the formulas came into effect? Some such history is essential for seducing the reader into reading about mathematical formulas. Will have more comments about the remainder of the article. I still feel it needs a final "summing up" section. The ending is too abrupt. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply The reason is already mentioned. "The bridge formula law was enacted to limit the weight-to-length ratio of heavy trucks, and to protect roads and bridges from the damage caused by them." There were no catastrophic bridge col lapses that prompted them to invent a formula to protect bridges, it was a preventative measure taken due to the simple fact that trucks were getting heavier (due to increasing weight limits) and more numerous every year. I could probably try to make this more clear to the average reader, so I will re-read the article and see if it can be improved. However, there is no requirement for a "summing up" section and most articles avoid them, it makes the article read too much like a school paper. And I'm not sure there is enough material about the "future" of this forumla to include any section devoted to it. If you have any ideas about the expansion of this article with relevant material I might be ignorant of, I'm open to suggestions. But right now, I believe this article is as comprehensive as its gonna get without drifting off topic. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I added a new section titled "issues", which raises some points about how the formula does not work. I hope this can be a compromise between us. As I said earlier, information about the faults of this formula is sparse. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 21:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is much better (and sorry for the delay in replying). It now leaves the reader with questions to mull over (which is good). BTW, what formulas do they use in other countries? It might be good to add some comparison in the history section. I came across some sources, which I will post here later tonight. These sources talk about weight limits in different states and in different countries. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:10, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Update I have found more information which allowed me to expand the Issues section, and I think the article has been substantially improved. I hadn't even considered adding a section covering the faults of this formula, so I appreciate your constructive criticisms. On another note, I haven't found any information on other countries. This article is specific to the U.S. so I'm not sure other countries would be necessary for this article (although it would be a nice touch). --ErgoSum88 (talk) 19:54, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I agree that the page is much improved. I am now supporting this FAC for FA. Congratulations on writing a most interesting and unusual article! Finally, after many many years, I know what a weigh station is all about! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:07, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a list of some references. I will post more on the page's talk page, as and when I find them:

PS Two more:
Thank you. Although I must point out that this is only one of the many regulations that a weigh station enforces. They also include the Hours of service, Overweight/oversize load restrictions, and others as well. This is my area of expertise, hence I am currently attempting to expand the coverage of trucking-related articles, and will probably submit more articles of this kind soon and would welcome your thorough feedback in the future. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 23:25, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Laser brain (talk) 15:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reply To be honest, the introduction was a recent addition which needed some copyediting. I made some fixes, but there are others I have a reply for so I'm listing them above. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 21:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I will return soon and read the whole thing. Sometimes the lead is weak and it makes me stop reading—probably a bad habit on my part because the lead is not always representative of the entire text. From some of your responses, it seems that I was not entirely clear about the passive problem. For example, "The bridge formula law was enacted." and you asked what more needs to be said. Well, you didn't say who enacted it because you used passive voice. Does that make more sense? If I say "My radio was stolen." (passive), you get far less information than "Jim stole my radio." (active). When you use the passive voice in writing, the subject (Jim) can be hidden or, in this case, completely eliminated. So, it's not a good writing technique unless you really don't know who it was. --Laser brain (talk) 22:29, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It is my understanding that introductions are supposed to be generalizations of the entire article. I chose not to include who passed the bridge formula law in the introduction for that reason, although I have changed it since. The point of the introduction is to introduce the reader to the subject of the article without weighing them down with details. If one had read the entire article, one would be informed as to the "when, where, why, and how" the law was passed. I'm still unsure what is so passive about the statement "Compliance with the law is checked when vehicles pass through a weigh station", although I have attempted to correct any ambiguity. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:08, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Withdrawing my oppose for now on reading the entire article; it looks much improved. --Laser brain (talk) 16:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on criterion 3 until following is sorted out Image concern:

Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 00:59, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply As far as I know, road signs are not copywritten. I used the image [47] as a starting point for the improved version, which is entirely my own work. The version as it exists now is not a "cleaned up" version, it was drawn from scratch by me (using GIMP). Technically is it derivative as it depicts a road sign, yes, but the work is entirely my own. If there needs to be a different license for the image then I would be glad to change it. I'm pretty ignorant of the technical details of copyright law so I only applied the license that I thought was most applicable. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:47, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The effort is yours but as the product is not an original concept, you did not create a copyright for your work (for which to release). Instead, this image inherited the restrictions from the source work, meaning that it cannot be used for non-commercial purposes. End-result: it is not a "free" image, and fall under would have to be considered for fair-use. It would not qualify for fair-use as its only purpose is to illustrate a traffic sign that shows an increasing weight limit for vehicles with a greater number of wheel axles, which words can perfectly describe (and of the sign's disputable significance to the article). Images of road-signs can be protected by copyrights (unless the sign is designed by a federal body instead of by a state body, or the design is totally made of words or simple shapes, which for this case does not qualify). What matters is that the Ohio Department of Transportation claims non-commerical use for the image you copied from their website. Jappalang (talk) 01:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Every state has these weight limit signs. Images of this same sign can be found in other states, such as Minnesota, Michigan, South Dakota, Massachusetts, Illinois, Pennsylvania, and Oregon. Furthermore, the Ohio website states content may not be redistributed for profit. Even if this sign was the property of Ohio (which it is not), we are not using the image for profit. I have not found any federal website that clearly states this sign is property of the federal government, but its widespread use across many states should be sufficient enough proof that this sign is not the property of Ohio. I fail to see how this sign is any different from a speed limit sign or any other road sign. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 23:14, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just found this website which proves this sign is property of the federal government. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 23:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "We are not using the image for profit": this cannot constitute a reason for putting an image up as "free" on Wikipedia and Commons. The purpose of the projects are to distribute "free" material that can be used by anyone for any purposes, even commercial. Hence, an image that is restricted for non-commercial purposes is, for all purposes, considered non-free content. The main problem with this sign is the vehicular icons, which do not qualify for simple shapes. You might want to take a look at Wikipedia:Copyright on highway shields on the subject of copyrighted road signs.
  • The FHWA image is not an exact match for this derivative image; however, it is evident that the Ohio DoT took their layout and vehicle icons (the first three icons on the Ohio DoT sign is simply an extension—copy and paste—of the first vehicle on the federal sign). One problem would be that the link you brought up is of the 2003 MUTCD, whereas the Ohio DoT site is for 1999 (archived in 2005). We can solve head off concerns (improbable as such may be) that the federal work was based on the Ohio image with 1998's MUTCD, available here (published by the federal DoT[48]). Likewise, the Ohio DoT's image is a derivative of the federal work (it's non-commercial restriction would be null). Unless someone comes up with a convincing argument on how the Ohio DoT was original in their work, your derivative work is based on federal public domain work. Jappalang (talk) 01:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Images verifiably in public domain. Jappalang (talk) 01:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Comments. I am almost ready to support but have a few questions.

Karanacs (talk) 18:10, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply I will give you a quick answer because I don't really have a lot of time right now to look up the answers, but I will tell you what I know from experience.
Update Ok I've added info about penalties. Its slightly rough so it probably needs some copyediting. As far as "repeatedly violating the rules", the driver is responsible for checking the vehicle's weight and paying the fines. So companies really have no part in this. Although I suppose if a certain company was connected to a high degree of violations, certain actions would be taken, but I'm not sure this has ever happened. Usually states are happy just to collect the fines and ignore the problem. Also I found some raw numbers regarding violations of weight limits. But there is no mention of percentages. I suppose that would be a hard thing to pin down, but if you would like this info to be added, I would be happy to oblige. As far as international implications, I have found a source for this and I'm still digesting it [49] to see if there is any salvagable info. So far all I've been able to determine is that Mexico has a bridge formula, but I still don't know if it is based on the US formula (I suspect that it is). Let me know what you think. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 23:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I like the additions about penalties. As for international, I was more interested in how strictly we treated trucks from Canada and Mexico when they entered the US; I don't think it necessary to discuss whether those countries have their own formulas. Karanacs (talk) 13:41, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reply You are not the first person to complain about the thin-ice analogy. But hear me out... wikipedians are always talking about "stating the obvious". One such example of this mantra in action is the first line from an article which recently passed FA nom, Utah State Route 128: "State Route 128 (SR-128) is a state highway in the U.S. state of Utah." The first sentence mentions the word "state" three times! Talk about patronizing. But is it necessary? I think so. We can't all be geniuses, so sometimes we have to dumb things down and say things that look and sound stupid, but make it absolutely clear what we are talking about. Yes, any idiot should be able to understand the purpose of the formula after reading the introduction and looking at the picture... but just in case, there is that one person who is still confused, perhaps the thin-ice analogy will finally spell it out for them. If you, or anyone else, still insists that it must go... then I will object no further. Thats all I can say. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 02:44, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry, I'm not going to insist upon its removal, even if I had the clout to. It was a minor rankle, and your explanation is... satisfactory. :) Steve T • C 07:31, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(Random early morning supportive comment by Fowler&fowler): I didn't think it was such a bad analogy. ... and there is at least one person on the planet who needs to hear about it: a guy I saw fishing one late March years ago on the edge of the ice in a half-thawed lake in Central Minnesota ... Speaking of upper-Midwestern winter traditions—and now you can see I am really elevating this discussion—this also means that if someone were looking to take their car spinning on a frozen lake, they might be better off in a Hummer stretch limo or the wiener mobile than in the family Jeep.
More seriously, though, Steve is right in that most people, if they found themselves on that (literal) thin ice, would crawl tentatively on all fours rather than walk confidently on twos. But I'm guessing also that most people might not ponder the question unless they were in that situation, so the analogy is still helpful. The only part of the quote above that sounds a little awkward to me is, "This difference in weight distribution would allow a person to cross an area of ice while lying down that might otherwise collapse under their body weight while standing up." What do you think of something along the lines of: "In situations where walking or running is too risky, this difference in weight distribution might allow a person to drag themselves while prone, or crawl on their elbows and knees, safely across the ice."? "Lying down," at least to me, suggests a static state. Also "that might otherwise collapse" seems to be suggesting that "lying down" is collapsing, not the ice. ... And now they should hurry up and give you that star. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:24, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How about we just change the "lying down" to "crawling"? That seems to be a simpler solution. Which I just did. Otherwise, make any changes you feel are necessary. On another note, its been almost two months since I nominated this article. Not that I'm complaining! This article has been vastly improved, and I'm grateful. I'm just wondering if the admins have forgotten about this one. Whats the record for the longest debates over an FA nom? I'm game for setting a new one. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 23:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 17:24, 21 April 2009 [50].

Eli Lilly

[edit]
Nominator(s): Charles Edward (Talk) 13:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I have spent about a week researching this topic and have put it through a successful good article review. I believe it is now comprehensive, well sourced, and meets the other criteria needed to reach featured status. Charles Edward (Talk) 13:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments An interesting read. I have some questions/comments/suggestions: Sasata (talk) 16:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Sasata (talk) 18:55, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


image query There is a flag File:Acw_bs_7a.png is this in breach of Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(icons)#Do_not_invent_new_icons? Fasach Nua (talk) 17:31, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly don't know. That image is on alot of American Civil War portals and was created by someone in MilHist. I don't have a problem changing it if you think it is inappropriate. Charles Edward (Talk) 17:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

**I looked specifically for this book at my library but it was not there. However, I doubt there would be considerable more information available in it than I gleaned from the other sources used. Charles Edward (Talk) 16:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave the other two concerns out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry that I am not the MOS expert - I am just relaying comments I have often received on the issue and that is - you link it only once and usually its on first mention in the article. Also, you don't want to educate Reader on every word in the article, just the ones that are specific to the article topic. For example, quinine and Paris, Illinois are good wikilinks to include but France and soldier are not.NancyHeise talk 23:13, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Although I think it would make the article better, there is nothing you can be expected to do if it is not mentioned in your sources. I completely understand, I too have been asked to do the impossible and go beyond the best scholarly sources in my articles too. I don't understand why people expect us to know stuff that is just not covered in the most modern scholarship! : ) NancyHeise talk 23:13, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

NancyHeise talk 18:06, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support after I order a few references in the article. Mm40 (talk) 11:00, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Nothing that would lead me to change my vote, but I noticed that under the section Business ventures, there does not appear to be a period at the end of the quote beginning with I can hardly tell you how it glares at me.... There may be, and if there isn't I'm not sure where to put it. Mm40 (talk) 11:08, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Also, there is one disambiguation link that should be corrected. Mm40 (talk) 11:10, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 17:24, 21 April 2009 [51].

Han Dynasty

[edit]
Nominator(s): Pericles of AthensTalk 01:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it has already passed the Good Article "smell test" so to speak, and I believe it meets FA criteria. I think anyone with a general interest in history will also consider this an enjoyable read. Cheers.Pericles of AthensTalk 01:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I find the first passage in Structural engineering, well, optimistic. Could you please further eloborate what architectural remains above-ground still exist in China from Han times? Because AFAIK, except for ruined rammed earth and dry brick structures at the extreme northern and north-western periphery, I am not aware of any substantial remains from that age. Also, I am sceptical about your portrayal of the architectural richness of the sites of Chang'an and Luoyang, making them almost sound like Pompeii. And which underground shafts reached depths of several hundred meters? If I am not mistaken, the section puts the whole architectural heritage of Han China in a misleading light. As it is, nearly nothing remains in fact, and the first intact above-ground buildings in China only stem from the 6th/7th century AD. There are also issues with an over-optimistic representation in the following chapters, but for the moment let us concentrate on this section. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 23:54, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sure! I take it you didn't read Science and technology of the Han Dynasty yet, particularly this section. I used Morton and Lewis (2005) for the mentioning that in Gansu the ruins of 30 beacon towers and two fortified castles still stand. Chang Chun-shu (2007) also describes how the wall ruins of towns, fortresses, and outposts in Inner Mongolia were constructed with stamped clay brick instead of rammed earth, although the watchtowers in the region were typically made of rammed earth. As for the aboveground rammed earth walls and brick-laden structural drainage systems of Chang'an and Luoyang, I used Wang Zhongshu's source, which is a very good one if you're able to pick it up (it has pictures of wall ruins, drainage-system arches, towers, carriage ruts, etc., as well as interesting photos of Han frontier fortresses which still have their crenellations). I've taken extensive notes from it here. He describes the archaeological surveys taken at those sites, the measured areas encompassed by the walls, the length of each wall, the average height of their surviving ruins, and the fact that Luoyang's southern wall was washed away when the Luo River changed its course. Wang also gives an excellent description of Han tomb structures. While Wang mentions the tall stone pillar-gates ("que"), so does architectural historian Nancy Steinhardt (2005) in the work I cited. As stated in the Science and Tech of Han article, twenty nine of these aboveground stone monuments still stand and even imitate wooden architectural components (there's an early 20th-century photo of one I included in the main Han article if you look at the religion section). As for the mining shafts and boreholes reaching hundreds of meters beneath the earth, these have long ago been discovered, as Michael Loewe (1968) was even discussing them back in the 1960s (see his Everyday Life in Early Imperial China during the Han Period 202 BC–AD 220. London: B.T. Batsford Ltd.; New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons. ISBN 0872207587). For the boreholes and mining shafts, you could also refer to Wang Zhongshu (1982), Robert Temple (1986), K.S. Tom (1989), and Colin A. Ronan (1994) which I cited. The mining shafts were found to have some very spacious chambers, timber frames as supports, tall ladders, and iron tools left behind. The boreholes dug for lifting liquid brine are mostly located in today's Sichuan province. I corrected the article on the issue of mining shafts (for gathering metal ores), since those already found are only over a hundred meters deep (not several hundred) according to Loewe and Wang, yet the sources I consulted for boreholes (such as Loewe and Ronan's work) say those were dug several hundred meters deep to lift brine with bamboo tube-buckets that acted as suction-lift pumps with valves.--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:29, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So to recap on the very last issue (in case you got lost there), mining shafts for gathering ores were only over a hundred meters deep, while boreholes dug for collecting brine with a bucket system reached several hundred meters beneath the earth's surface.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:09, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have not read the article recently, but I have two scholarly books on Chinese architecture (published in 1990 and 2002) that describe in detail above ground architectural remains from the Han dynasty, so I am surprised to learn there are none. Also a 2007 History of Global Architecture describes extant Han ruins. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there's some Han-era aboveground structures still around, just not wooden architecture, unfortunately. Also, Gun Powder Ma, I take it you are unfamiliar with the Great Wall of Qi? Sections of this stone wall (picture here) from the Eastern Zhou period still stand in Shandong province, which predates Han-dynasty architecture by centuries. However, this particular wall looks much more primitive than Han wall architecture, since that wall has a sort of haphazard arrangement of stones placed one on top of the other. Han walls that weren't made of rammed earth used carefully-measured and standard-stamped fired-clay bricks that were carefully arranged.--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:51, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. Main concerns met (19th April 09): Support. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 21:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Extended content
I am afraid, my concerns have not been addressed, and the section on structural engineering, as the whole paragraph on Science, technology, and engineering does not do justice to the archaeological situation on ground. My main points of criticsm are:
  • Strange weighting of evidence: The article should make it sufficiently clear to the reader that no intact above-ground buildings from the Han dynasty remain (other than a few mudbrick fortifications on the northern border), that there is a real dearth of such structures up to the Tang dynasty. If fire-brick and stone buildings from the period stand, as you claim your source says, why not adding pictures of them instead of ceramic models? Specifically, I am missing kind
City walls: Chinese city walls were until the middle Song dynasty typically of wood and rammed earth, even those of the capitals. No mention of that.
Arch bridges: you are content to say there were known, but AFAIK only through two literary sources. As you well know, there are no bridges extant from the period, so the evidence is overall rather meagre, but no mention of that.
In sum, the section should make it clear that little was built in Han times in terms of above-ground stone and fired-brick buildings and nearly nothing remains.
Vaults and domes were, with the exception of the few arch bridges, confined to underground structures, where the problem of lateral thrust is negligible
  • The rest of the section reads more like an item list, than a story, IMO showing a lack of deeper understanding of the real interplay between technology and society. For example, what do have, for example, sliding calipers to do with collapsible umbrellas? The reader is totally left in the dark what is so significant about them? Wouldn't it be more interesting to learn what social role umbrellas did have?
  • "Zhang was the first to install an additional tank between the reservoir and inflow vessel". In China or world-wide? Because inflow clepsydra in Greece were known by the 3rd century BC.
  • The section on water power rest totally on literary evidence gathered in the 1960s, but what about the actual archaeological situation? It is simply not true that waterpower "was applied to a wide array of uses", because, as the passage itself has, only a limited number of industrial uses were actually known. Corn-grinding, in contrast, the far and away most common application of watermills remained unknown in China until the 5th century. As elsewhere, the author seems to be more concerned with establishing that this and that "invention" was known in China, but we hardly ever get a glimpse of the really relevant question of how much these techniques were used and what impact they had on society.
  • non-encyclopedic diction: "incredible growth of the money economy", "comparable to the incredible scientific and technological growth during the Song Dynasty". In agricultural, pre-industrial societies which grew 0.1% per year, if they were lucky, such over the top expressions are clearly out of place
  • Overall, I find the greatest deficit of the article is that it reads in many parts more like a listing of loosely related items, laid out indiscriminately before the reader, who is confronted with a large bulk of 'raw material' without sufficient interpretation. This should be made much more ingestible. And, perhaps even more important, there are glaring omissions. Often, the article reads like 'look there is still a drop in the galleon', but isn't it much more objective to conversely state that the galleon is practically empty? This is certainly true of the architectural section, where you mention a couple of extant foundation walls, instead of bringing the attention of the reader to the fact that there is actually very little left in terms of archaeological traces of what once was a 60 million people empire spanning 400 years. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 00:47, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to address your concerns as best I can. First I want to answer your suggestion that I post pictures of aboveground structures dated to the Han. If you read the passage I made above, I explicitly directed you to the religion section of this article, with this picture of an Eastern-Han stone pillar gate. According to Steinhardt, Nancy N. (2005). "Pleasure tower model," in Recarving China's Past: Art, Archaeology, and Architecture of the 'Wu Family Shrines', 275–281. Edited by Naomi Noble Richard. New Haven and London: Yale University Press and Princeton University Art Museum. ISBN 0300107978...this is one of twenty-nine aboveground stone pillar gates that have survived from the Han Dynasty. If you want a more recent photo of a stone pillar-gate, look here on page 55 of Liu Xujie's book chapter in Chinese Architecture (2002, Yale University Press). As seen in the picture, this Eastern-Han double-body stone gate tower still stands 6 m (20 ft) in height; it is located at the tomb of Gao Yin in Ya'an County, Sichuan Province, China. As for the rammed earth and brick ruins of Chang'an and Luoyang, as well as the frontiers, I've already pointed out which sources I used and which you can consult. What else should I do? Visit these sites myself and take pictures? Wikimedia Commons really doesn't have much in regards to pictures of Chinese architecture, I'm afraid, let alone what's left of Han architecture. You wrote: If fire-brick and stone buildings from the period stand, as you claim your source says, why not adding pictures of them instead of ceramic models? Yet I've already pointed out Wang Zhongshu's book to you as an excellent source with pictures of these ruins. I make it clear in the article that all the wooden architecture has disappeared and what is left are simply walls, tomb chambers, beacon towers, and stone pillar-gates. Exactly how is any of this a gross exaggeration of what is left of Han architecture? Also, I made it very clear in the article that what we know of bridge architecture comes from literary sources; I made no mention of archaeology or existing structures. I don't know why you felt the need to include this as a point of contention. Are you sure you know exactly what it is you are (strongly) opposing?--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Secondly, with the comment about supplying pictures as further evidence, are you accusing me of misrepresenting my sources? Please consult them if you think there are problems, but I must remind you that on Wiki we assume good faith about the intents of other editors. I'm especially perplexed by your response since I've been more than helpful with addressing your questions about which sources were used (and for what contents) in my first passage above made on April 9th.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote: Chinese city walls were until the middle Song dynasty typically of wood and rammed earth, even those of the capitals. No mention of that. Sure, I don't mention the Song Dynasty, but I write in this article: The ruins of rammed earth walls that once surrounded the capitals Chang'an and Luoyang still stand, along with their drainage systems of brick arches, ditches, and ceramic water pipes. I clearly mention that rammed earth was used here for city walls. Just to be safe, I have clearly specified which item was made of what in this reworded sentence: This includes stone pillar-gates, brick tomb chambers, rammed-earth city walls, rammed-earth and brick beacon towers, Han-era rammed-earth sections of the Great Wall, and rammed-earth castles in Gansu with crenelations. I still have all the notes from these sources to back up my claims.--Pericles of AthensTalk 08:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote: Vaults and domes were, with the exception of the few arch bridges, confined to underground structures, where the problem of lateral thrust is negligible. And? I limited the discussion of vaults and domes to underground tomb architecture. Are you suggesting that I have done otherwise? Here's the only sentence in the article where "vaults" or "domes" appear: Over ten thousand underground tombs dating to the Han Dynasty have been found, many of which feature archways, vaulted chambers, and domed roofs. That's it. So what exactly is the problem? Again, are you sure you have sufficient grounds for (strong) opposition?--Pericles of AthensTalk 08:59, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your umbrella comment kind of baffles me; you write: Wouldn't it be more interesting to learn what social role umbrellas did have? Gun Powder Ma, there's only so many roles or functions that an umbrella can have. Are you suggesting that I mention that umbrellas were often mounted on fancy chariots to shade wealthy Han-era folk from the sun and rain?. I reworded the sentence with something to that effect; but seriously, no more has to be said. Again, should this rather simple and easily-fixed item be considered grounds to strongly oppose an FAC nomination? I do see what you mean by listing so many inventions together which are unrelated; I have reworded that into several new sentences. Better now?--Pericles of AthensTalk 09:05, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'm well aware of the inflow clepsydra in the Greek world. However, I did not make the claim the Chinese were the first to create the inflow clepsydra. Is this what you are suggesting? I only mentioned the addition of a tank between the reservoir and inflow vessel. And yes, Zhang Heng was the first in China to do so, as noted by Needham (hence I reworded that sentence to include "first in China" instead of just "first" Better?). I don't know if the Greeks had such an arrangement with an additional tank, but the Chinese expanded on Zhang's idea and added several tanks in the following centuries (as Needham notes on that same page I cited, 479 of Volume 4, Part 2).--Pericles of AthensTalk 09:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I see what you mean by the value judgement of "incredible" in certain spots. I have changed the waterwheel statement (i.e. I removed "was applied to a wide array of uses"), the mentioning of the money economy in the intro (changed "incredible growth" to "significant growth"), and reworded the beginning sentence in the science and technology section. However, I challenge your assumptions about the growth of the money economy during Han. The growth of the money economy is extensively covered by Sadao Nishijima (1986, Cambridge History of China) which I explained in the "Taxation and property" subsection of this article. Refer to my notes here from Nishijima's source, virtually a page by page paraphrasing of his work (I also quote him extensively). As I was only able to briefly outline in the article due to size constraints, Nishijima discusses the major sociopolitical impacts that the expansion of the money economy had during Han times. The widespread circulation of coinage, which far surpassed that of previous eras, changed not only how common business transactions were conducted, but also how salaries were paid (in a shift from paying largely in kind) and how poll and property taxes were paid. The latter forced farming peasants to become heavily engaged in urban markets to sell wares and sideline products for cash, while it enriched successful merchants who could invest money in land and hence join the landowning class. These huge societal changes have hardly gone unnoticed by historians. I would suggest that you read Nishijima's source (if anything) to understand why I felt such a statement was warranted in the lead. With this, I have to ask you once again: are you sure you understand what you are (strongly) opposing? I'd like to hear your take on the Han-era money economy, given that you provide scholarly sources for your ideas.--Pericles of AthensTalk 09:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote: This is certainly true of the architectural section, where you mention a couple of extant foundation walls, instead of bringing the attention of the reader to the fact that there is actually very little left in terms of archaeological traces of what once was a 60 million people empire spanning 400 years. Well, none of my sources explicitly state this, except for when some of them mention that no wooden architecture has survived (which I've already explained in the article). Actually, Gun Powder Ma, could you quote a scholarly source here that explicitly says, and in no ambiguous terms, that only a couple foundational walls are left from the Han period? In other words, exactly where did you get this idea? The sources I used would simply refute this statement. Not only do rammed earth sections of the Han-era Great Wall still exist in Gansu, but also the ruins of thirty beacon towers and two entire fortresses. Han wall ruins and beacon towers can also be found further east in Inner Mongolia. I've mentioned the wall ruins of both Han capital cities, which Wang Zhongshu provides excellent details for and pictures. Also, if you're looking for pictures in a source that you can access, I know you've read some of Joseph Needham's Science and Civilization in China series in the past. For example, on Plate V in Volume 1: Introductory Orientations, he shows a picture of the top ramparts of a Han-era rammed earth fort at Dunhuang which still have defensive crenellations crowning the top.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:58, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote: As elsewhere, the author seems to be more concerned with establishing that this and that "invention" was known in China, but we hardly ever get a glimpse of the really relevant question of how much these techniques were used and what impact they had on society. For one, there is absolutely nothing wrong with outlining what technologies existed during Han. As for their impact on society at large, I included brief notes (i.e. see sentences with "Of great importance to textile manufacture"; and "enabled farmers to carefully plant crops in rows instead of casting seeds out by hand"; and "Once experiments with this system yielded successful results, the government officially sponsored it and encouraged peasants to utilize it"). However, the scarce amount of literary sources dating to the Han only allow us to reconstruct bits and pieces of the overall picture; the same goes with surviving artwork. For example, there are only a handful of Han-era maps penned on silk that have survived, so we know they used maps, but with only a handful of Han literary sources that describe maps, not much can be asserted as to how widely they were used. Given this, it is my opinion that this is yet another questionable reason of yours to (strongly) oppose the article. Even if I was able to find a great source on this topic with page after page discussing how each individual invention impacted Han society, such extraneous detail surely does not belong in this article and is more suited in the main article: Science and technology of the Han Dynasty.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:38, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I find some of your comments a bit odd. First of all, you still did not address my main concern that your article sounds in many parts more like a loosely connected item list, rather than the narrative the FAC status calls for.

  • For example, I am a bit surprised that you completely missed the social role of umbrellas in ancient societies as status symbol for distinguishing rank. Instead of pointing at the collapsing nature of umbrellas, wouldn't it be much more relevant to know whether the parasol in Han times was reserved to women of status, as in Greece, or to high official, as in the Ancient Near East, or if it were a rather democratic affair as in Ancient Rome? Please see for more: M.C. Miller: „The Parasol: An Oriental Status-Symbol in Late Archaic and Classical Athens,” in: The Journal of Hellenic Studies, Bd. 112 (1992), S. 91-105
  • The fact that there is very little evidence of arch bridges in Han times is important, because arch bridges are masonry bridges, and this type of bridges constitutes by a huge margin the most important bridge type before the industrial age, being the only one solid enough for heavy loads.
  • Water power: Mistake by omission. Historians of technology are very careful to differentiate between industrial mills and corn mills but the article still lacks a clear statement that water power for corn-grinding was unknown in Han times.
  • As for "invented first" and similar phrases which are much used throughout the article (why by the way?), it should be sufficiently clear in each case, whether the first claim refers only to China or globally. For example, the "invented the first known zoetrope lamp" seems to claim a global reach, while in the next sections on Zheng you want it to be read in the first sense, but how can the reader know that in each specific case?
  • Vaults and domes, as the largest solid structures of solidly roofing a space, feature in the history of architecture primarily important in their use above-ground function (churches, tombs, mosques, basilicas, city halls etc.), not so much below ground where they other methods of roofing like props-and-lintel. Hence, it should be made clear that their use was rare or even unknown for normal Han buildings.
  • But I am most surprised about the treatment of the archaeological remains, or rather the lack thereof, in the article. A number of important treatments of the subject make it crystal-clear that there exist a real dearth of them from this period. For example Thorp in the very first sentence:

While no buildings survive from the early Imperial period, i.e., the Qin and Han dynasties (ca. 250 B.C. - A.D. 200), new archaeological information, combined with literary and visual data, allows a preliminary inquiry into the architectural principles of this early age in China.

Robert L. Thorp: “Architectural Principles in Early Imperial China: Structural Problems and TheirSolution“, The Art Bulletin, Vol. 68, No. 3. (1986), pp. 360–378: 360

The complete absence of extant wooden buildings (376):

No pre-Tang wooden structures survive on the Chinese mainland, and the early halls that do exist, both in Japan and in China, have certainly been restored many times.

The obstacle which the scarcity of remains poses to a deeper understanding of Han architecture (363):

Today the most renowned Qin and Han edifices are only vaguely understood, a far cry from the medley of ancient sources and modern archaeology that can be applied to the principal architectural monuments of ancient Greece or Rome.

If you dig deeper, you will also find that fortifications were built until Song times as rammed earth structures with wooden crenellations. Since stone or (fired) brick walls were commonly employed elsewhere, for example in the Ancient Near East and Greece, since the turn to the 1st millenium BC, this curious absence of a developed fortifications in China also warrant a comment. There are really many more issues with the article, even factual errors I noticed. It would be a great help, if you checked your sources again, because listing all issues here is impossible and should not be made task of the reviewers. Nonetheless, I am going to look up a few more points. Generally, I would suggest a rewrite to make it a true narrative. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 23:10, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You write: If you dig deeper, you will also find that fortifications were built until Song times as rammed earth structures with wooden crenellations. I don't necessarily doubt this (since I know you have access to sources written by credible scholars and authorities on architecture), but I must ask you something essential for your claim: says who? If you look at Plate V of the Needham source I mentioned, the defensive ramparts of that Han-era Dunhuang fort clearly have crenallations made of the same rammed earth as the walls.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You write: Water power: Mistake by omission. Historians of technology are very careful to differentiate between industrial mills and corn mills but the article still lacks a clear statement that water power for corn-grinding was unknown in Han times. If we are talking solely about watermills and not hydraulic-powered trip hammers here (the latter which were used for pounding and threshing cereal grains as explicitly mentioned by Huan Tan in about 20 CE, indirectly mentioned by Ma Rong in the late 2nd century CE), a quick glance at Needham (p. 396–405 of SCC, Vol. 4, P. 2) shows that watermills were known in literary sources from the 5th century CE onwards (one was erected by Zu Chongzhi in about 488 CE). There is an ample amount of literary sources in the Sui and Tang Dynasties which describe watermills, but not illustrated in any book until 1313 CE with the Nongshu by Wang Zhen (official). I suppose that when Needham's book was published in the 1960s, Needham was unaware that some Northern Song paintings (960–1127 CE) prominently featured watermills. In any case, Needham writes on page 396 QUOTE: It is curious that references in early Chinese literature to the mill par excellence, the rotary millstones driven by water-power, are much rarer than those to the water-driven trip-hammer. This may arise perhaps from a fluidity of terminology at that time, especially among the scholars whose qualifications were not technical. It would not have been difficult to confuse chhui, the equivalent of the grain mill proper, or even wei (cf. p 188 above) with the word chui (hammer) used for tui (the tilt- or trip-hammer). Moreover, in the texts already referred to, some books and some editions write wei or mo instead of tui, thus attributing to Tu Yü (+222 to +284) multiple mills worked from a single water-wheel by gearing; and water-mills instead of water-powered trip-hammers to Chhu Thao (c. +240 to +280) and Wang Jung (+235 to +306). There seems, in effect, little reason to doubt that water-driven quern mills were working at least as early as the hydraulic blowing-engines of the +1st century, and perhaps some time before them. ENDQUOTE. We all know how Needham likes to speculate, but since it was later Chinese scholars who inserted into earlier texts that watermills were used instead of water-powered trip hammers, there is really no sufficient evidence to say that the watermill existed in Han. However, is this truly a grave fault of mine? Am I now to list or mention every single technology that didn't exist during Han? That seems silly and extraneous. I hope that's not what you are suggesting. However, I just now made a quick mention that there is no sufficient evidence for the watermill in Han times.--Pericles of AthensTalk 03:37, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote: The fact that there is very little evidence of arch bridges in Han times is important... Fair enough. I recently added this to the article: However, there are only two known references to arch bridges in Han literature.[373] In terms of art, only a single Han relief sculpture in Sichuan depicts an arch bridge.[374] This issue should now be put to rest; look in Science and technology of the Han Dynasty for more, or that Liu Xujie (2002) source I provided a link to above.--Pericles of AthensTalk 05:32, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote: As for "invented first" and similar phrases which are much used throughout the article (why by the way?), it should be sufficiently clear in each case, whether the first claim refers only to China or globally. Well, Gun Powder Ma, I believe credit should be put where credit is due. Nevertheless, I have reworded several sentences to fit this suggestion (which is a fair one). Let me know of any specific places where I might have missed a "first" that was ambiguous in terms of a world's first or simply first in China.--Pericles of AthensTalk 05:37, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote: Vaults and domes...it should be made clear that their use was rare or even unknown for normal Han buildings. Again, not a bad suggestion. Using Watson (2000), I added these two short sentences to the structural engineering sub-section: Underground vaults and domes did not require buttress supports since they were held in place by earthen pits.[366] The use of brick vaults and domes in aboveground Han structures is unknown.[366]. This should be entirely sufficient, and I believe completely addresses this specific concern of yours. Moving on...--Pericles of AthensTalk 06:04, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote: For example Thorp in the very first sentence...That's a very strange comment by Thorp in the beginning, considering how he provides contradictory info on page 363 when mentioning the existing sections of the Han-era Great Wall and existing segments of guard stations there, as well as the archaeological surveys which have identified the aboveground walls of the two capitals (Wang Zhongshu, also writing in the 1980s, provides much more in-depth information on this). I also find it curious that he knows nothing of Han-era aboveground stone pillar-gates (perhaps he is simply referring to the absence of existing wooden buildings?). Nevertheless, Thorp's source is very useful and I thank you for bringing it to the table after I suggested you present such a source. I have used Thorp's source to mention the "dearth" of existing Han architecture (as you describe it); here is what I recently wrote in the article: Architectural historian Robert L. Thorp describes the scarcity of Han-era archaeological remains, as well as the often unreliable Han-era literary and artistic sources used by historians for clues about non-existent Han architecture. With this, I hope you are entirely satisfied, because the prose size of that sub-section on structural engineering is getting a bit larger than it needs to be.--Pericles of AthensTalk 06:49, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote: Instead of pointing at the collapsing nature of umbrellas, wouldn't it be much more relevant to know whether the parasol in Han times was reserved to women of status, as in Greece, or to high official, as in the Ancient Near East, or if it were a rather democratic affair as in Ancient Rome? It sounds like you are suggesting that the utilization of certain devices by particular social classes is more important than functionality and descriptions of technical achievements. I don't mind adding some info about the social implications of any device, but the journal article you provided on Classical Athens says nothing about the Han-era people's utilization of the collapsible umbrella. Needham must have thought that the social implications of such a device didn't merit mentioning in his book, since he focused solely on technical details; since I used this source for the umbrella, the article thus reflects this priority. However, since you seem concerned about the "Mechanical and hydraulic engineering" sub-section mentioning inventions without further narrative context, I will try my best to wrap them into a narrative structure, using some additional research.--Pericles of AthensTalk 07:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Gun Powder Ma, in addition to all your other points of concern which I've addressed, I am proud to say much of the "Mechanical and hydraulic engineering" sub-section has been reworded and given a true narrative form, as you desired to see. Here is the newly-reworded part:

Literary evidence of Han-era mechanical engineering rests largely on the choice observations of sometimes disinterested Confucian scholars, since professional artisan-engineers (jiang 匠) did not leave behind detailed writings of their work.[377] Han scholars who had little or no expertise in mechanical engineering sometimes provided insufficient information on the various technologies they described.[378] Nevertheless, some Han literary sources provide crucial information. For example, in 15 BCE the philosopher Yang Xiong described the invention of the belt drive for a quilling machine, which was of great importance to early textile manufacturing.[379] The inventions of the artisan Ding Huan (丁緩) are mentioned in the Book of Later Han. Around 180 CE, Ding created a manually-operated rotary fan used for air conditioning within palace buildings.[380] Ding also used gimbals as pivotal supports for one of his incense burners and invented the world's first known zoetrope lamp.[381][382]

The discovery of Han artwork through modern archaeology has brought to light inventions which were otherwise absent in Han literary sources. As observed in Han miniature tomb models but not in literary sources, the crank handle was used to operate the fans of winnowing machines that separated grain from chaff.[383][384] The odometer cart, invented during Han, measured journey lengths, using mechanical figures banging drums and gongs to indicate each distance traveled.[385] This invention is depicted in Han artwork by the 2nd century CE, yet detailed written descriptions are not offered until the 3rd century CE.[386] Modern archaeologists have also unearthed actual specimens of devices used during Han. For example, Han-era sliding metal calipers used by craftsmen for making minute measurements were found to have inscriptions of the exact day and year they were manufactured, yet this tool does not appear in Han literatary sources.[387][388]

Isn't she pretty! (lol) I'm glad you nudged me a bit to rewrite this section, because it sounds much better now. What do you think?--Pericles of AthensTalk 09:00, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Great! I'm glad that you find all of the changes satisfactory. Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:22, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Great! Very good to hear. And thanks for adding italic type marks (i.e. '' '') to Wang's 1949 journal article in the reference section.--Pericles of AthensTalk 01:52, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed the DAB links. However, I couldn't find those two self-redirects of Eastern Han and Western Han. Could you point them out? Thanks.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:54, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I can't find them either, I think the server on the dab finder is running slow.--Truco 17:59, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This might be a silly question, but could it be that the links in the Template:History of China are being factored in? That is the only place in the article where I see Western Han and Eastern Han links.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hello SandyGeorgia. I fixed the endashes. As for the left-aligned pictures under third-level headings, I am aware of the general rule not to place them there. However, I figured it would be ok if there is a "further information" ((see|Example)) link buffer in between the headings and the pictures, just how any amount of prose text could act like a buffer for left-aligned images and third level headings. Was I wrong to assume this?--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:01, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
AFAIK, yes; WP:ACCESS lays out the order of items within sections, and still calls for no left-aligned under third-level headings. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. I hate to have so many images aligned to the right, but if that's the way it has to be, then so be it.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed the images. Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:01, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Extended content
Here is the 2nd paragraph of the Lead:

When the Han Empire was founded, its territory was divided between commanderies controlled by the central government and semi-autonomous kingdoms, which were eventually ruled only by close relatives of the emperor. Following the Rebellion of the Seven States, the imperial court directly appointed the administrative staffs of the kingdoms, which remained nominal fiefs of the kings yet came to resemble more or less the regular commandery. Another threat to Han's control was the nomadic Xiongnu Confederation founded by Modu Shanyu (r. 209–174 BCE), which spanned across the eastern portion of the Eurasian Steppe and, following a victory over Han forces in 200 BCE, negotiated terms of a royal marriage alliance and tributary relations in 198 BCE with Han as the de facto inferior partner. When the Xiongnu continued to raid Han's borders despite the treaty, Emperor Wu of Han (r. 141–87 BCE) launched several military campaigns against them which would eventually force the Xiongnu to accept vassal status as one of Han's tributaries. Yet these war campaigns achieved more than subduing the Xiongnu; they expanded the Han realm into the Tarim Basin of Central Asia (with additional conquests of what are now modern northern Vietnam and North Korea) and established the vast trade network of the Silk Road that stretched to the Mediterranean world of the Roman Empire. The Han court upheld relations with distant states such as the Kushan Empire of South Asia and the Arsacid Empire of Persia.

The problems here are:
  • Too much detail for the Lead. The lead itself is too long.
  • A lot of sentences too long, rambling and confusing
  • Some grammatical errors (spanned across etc.)
  • Ugly sentences which are hard to understand.

For example, the first two sentences of this paragraph would read better if simplified to something like: When the Han Empire was founded, its territory was divided into areas directly controlled by the central government, known as commanderies; and a number of semi-autonomous kingdoms, which gradually lost all vestiges of their independence, particularly following the Rebellion of the Seven States.

In the rest of the article there are also numerous problems with prose. What follows are a few examples:

  • Despite the portrayal of the Qin Dynasty as a brutal regime by Han scholars such as Jia Yi (201–169 BCE), much of the statutes in the Han law code first compiled by Chancellor Xiao He (d. 193 BCE) were derived from the Qin law code (supported by archaeological evidence such as finds at Zhangjiashan and Shuihudi). Sentence too long and convoluted. It should be split. It should read: "many of the statutes", not "much". And there is a passage ungrammatically tagged on in brackets.
  • However, state organs with competing interests and institutions such as the court conference (tingyi 廷議) which used majority consensus pressured the emperor to accept the advice of his ministers on policy decisions (lest he alienate the bureaucracy). Same as the above, but with punctuation problems.
  • When a male commoner reached age twenty-three, he was drafted into the military for one year of training and one year of service as a non-professional, conscripted soldier (zhengzu 正卒) serving on their frontier, in a king's court, or under the Minister of the Guards in the capital. Another long sentence, which loses structure andbecomes confusing toward the end.
  • Due to wood's rapid decay over time, what remains of Han wooden architecture are scattered ceramic roof tiles, yet non-wooden buildings made of brick, stone, and rammed earth still stand, such as pillar-gates, tomb chambers, city walls, beacon towers, Han-era sections of the Great Wall, and fortified castles in Gansu with towers and crenelations. Tenses ungrammatic. This should be two or three sentences.
  • Ranked below the Three Excellencies were the Nine Ministers, who each headed a specialized ministry and had many subordinates who expanded the various roles of their ministry. We can assume the existence of subordinates and their function.

There are some good passages of prose, however, such as the Taxation and property section.

Some Other Points:

  • The traditional Chinese characters, the simplified Chinese characters, as well as the Pinyin and Wade-Giles transliterations of Han Dynasty are rightly in the first line of the article. However continuing to do this with subsidiary names such as Western Han Dynasty and Later Han Dynasty is a problem. This unnecessary and repetitive information makes the first paragraph of the lead practically unreadable.
  • "It was briefly interrupted by the Xin Dynasty (9–23 CE) of Wang Mang, which divides the dynastic era into two periods," If you're going to mention Wang Mang in the second sentence, we need to give some indication of who or what he was. Someone, like myself, with little expertise in Chinese history, has no idea whether Wang Mang is a person, object or philosophy, without following a link. Adding "the usurper Wang Mang" might make things clearer. Also it would be better to replace "divides" with "separates".
  • Under "social class" the interesting topic of the Four occupations is hidden beneath a link labelled "heirarchical social order", and not mentioned on the page. Instead the article talks about other ranking issues.

Xandar 21:09, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Xandar. These are very legitimate concerns; I'll try to address each one. So far I have moved that painfully long description of Former/Western and Later/Eastern Han down to Wang Mang's usurpation section, which I think is the appropriate place to explain this.--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have to run and go to a language class, but I will be back sometime later tonight to continue copy-editing the article. So far I've made some major changes; have a look.--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have addressed each one of these concerns you have raised here. Please feel free to list all concerns you might have with the article. Do not feel shy about listing every contention you might have with the article. I have already reworded, combined, and split various sentences that you did not even mention in your list of grievances above. If there's anything else you find objectionable, now is the time to mention it.--Pericles of AthensTalk 06:13, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The changes are certainly an improvement. However, reading through the article again, I still see an awful lot of work that is needed on the text to bring it anywhere near to "brilliant prose" levels as demanded by the Featured Article Criteria. You really need some help with this. I think it will take several days hard work by several editors to solve the problems on this long article. As an example I have done a copy-edit on just the lead - which took me several hours. If you hate what I've done, feel free to revert it, it's just an example - and even then I don't suppose it's perfect. You can see the differences on a compare under the article history tab. Hopefully you can find some people willing to help copy-edit the rest of the text. Xandar 02:15, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, I won't revert your edits. What you did wasn't radically different, but it looks and reads a bit smoother since your copy-editing. Thank you for that. I wouldn't worry too much about the prose, which of course still needs tweaking in a lot of areas, but that's not an impossible task to handle. Although this will entail a lot of work, I don't mind tackling this problem at all. In fact, I'll continue copy-editing the article this weekend. As for outside help, should I contact the Guild of Copy Editors? They are kind of slow at things and have a lot of articles in the backlog; perhaps you know someone who could help out immediately? Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 06:25, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There's still a lot of problems with the grammar/comprehensibility/hanging brackets etc. However you still have a week or two to sort this out. You can put the article down as needing urgent attention on the list on the Guild of Copy Editors page. It might also be useful to look down the list of volunteers on that page and put in some individual requests for help on their talk pages. At the moment there are too many sentences in need of attention to list them all here. In fact listing them and explaining the problems would take longer than copyediting myself! The first paragraph of the Wang Mang section is a case in point:
  • A succession of male relatives to Empress Wang Zhengjun (71 BCE – 13 CE)—who was first empress, then empress dowager, then grand empress dowager during the reigns of Yuan (r. 49–33 BCE), Cheng (r. 33–7 BCE), and Ai (7–1 BCE) respectively—held the title of regent.[59][60] The sentence is too long and the main idea is split apart by extraneous information. It would be best to start with the reign and titles of the empress. Then information on husbands, then another sentence on the regents.
  • Her nephew Wang Mang (45–23 CE) was appointed regent over Emperor Ping (r. 1 BCE – 6 CE), yet when he died in 6 CE, Grand Empress Dowager Wang appointed Wang Mang as acting emperor over the child Liu Ying (d. 25 CE), who Wang promised to relinquish his control to once he came of age. Another huge sentence. Should be "regent for" rather than "regent over". It isn't immediately clear whether Ping or Wang Mang died. "Grand Empress Dowager Wang" is confusing here, better to just say "the empress dowager". The last clause should be a separate sentence, "Wang promised..." etc.
  • Despite this and several revolts of the nobility against him, Wang Mang claimed that signals sent from Heaven ushered in the end of Han and the beginning of his own dynasty: the Xin Dynasty (9–23 CE). "In spite of" is better than "despite," here. "signs" is better than "signals". I also think it should say "the Han dynasty" for clarity, and "dynasty" could be lost at the end. Xandar 22:29, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, these are all good suggestions. I have edited the article according to them. I'll try to contact some individual people of the Guild, since notifying them on their main page would perhaps be less effective (and produce a belated response).--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:35, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think the prose of the article has improved enormously with the work of the proposer and various copyeditors, and has certainly reached a state where I can withdraw my oppose pon these grounds. Xandar 01:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent! I hope that I'm able to improve the article to such an extent that you consider supporting it. Take care.--Pericles of AthensTalk 05:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Zeus. I included a medicine section in Science and technology of the Han Dynasty, but did not think of adding a sub-section in this article (simply for the sake of keeping the prose size to a minimum). I can add a very small sub-section on medicine if you'd like. Also, "further information" links do not add anything significant to the article's size, since WP:SIZE states that only the prose text size of the article is evaluated in terms of the article's KB size.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As promised, I added a small medicine sub-section. I believe this should be sufficient. Keep in mind that I don't think any substantial amount of text should be added to the article hereafter. The article is at a pristine prose-text size at the moment, according to the WP:SIZE standard.--Pericles of AthensTalk 06:10, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Even if WP:Prose doest not consider the 'main article' links to add to the prose size, I still think that they crowd the article, and links for the same articles should not be repeated in subsection after subsection. I mean, for the history subsection, I think a link the 'history' article and the list of emperors is appropriate, you don't need the other links for articles below that only have passing information on the history.Zeus1234 (talk) 06:26, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. Actually, you're right. I just got rid of those further info links and the article looks a lot less cluttered.--Pericles of AthensTalk 13:57, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am reading the article very closely and copy-editing as I go. There is still some work to be done here. I have run across a sentence which confuses me:
In central and southern China, paddy fields were chiefly used to grow rice, while Han-era paddy-field farmers along the Huai River used methods of transplantation.
Does the second half of the sentence (after while) have anything to do with the first half? Transplantation of what? Rice plants? The whole sentence needs to be clarified, I have no idea what the second half means and how both halves link together.
The waterwheel first appeared in Chinese records during the Han, yet it was already applied to a wide array of uses.
If it only appeared in Chinese records in the Han, how could it be already applied to many uses? Are you implying that it existed before Han times? This should be clarified. Zeus1234 (talk) 06:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed the comment about paddy-field farmers, tacking onto the end in growing rice to clarify that transplantation methods were used in rice-paddy agriculture. Use of the waterwheel is unheard of in records dating before Han; during Han, there is all of the sudden numerous recorded uses of the waterwheel. I changed the sentence a bit so that it sounds less confusing.--Pericles of AthensTalk 07:21, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Extended content
"Enfeoffed" is perhaps not used very often, but it is the correct terminology. In any case, thanks for copyediting! I need some outside help. Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Is it? Was China technically feudal then? Even if so, you could still spell out that they were given kingships in reward for service, instead of using a word that isn't in common use. – Quadell (talk) 18:00, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there was a clearly-established nobility, although their "fiefs" were not organized in the European sense, since they were more like counties and commanderies. Unlike Medieval Europe, there were also no serfs, although wealthy nobles did have retainers. Yet the latter were not used in agriculture; tenant farmers represented the majority of workers on the estates of the wealthy (and small independent owner-cultivators represented the majority of farmers overall). If you think there is a clarity problem with "enfoeff", I can reword that sentence. Hold on to your bootstraps, though...--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:08, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, I'm not sure "ennobled" is any better. Not sure the best way to handle this. Perhaps you could go back to enfoeffed, but link the word to Fiefdom? – Quadell (talk) 21:30, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hah! I kind of figured "ennobled" would be easier to understand since it sounds close to the word "noble". I guess I was wrong! I'll change it back to enfeoff if you think that is more appropriate. However, I added an inter-wiki link to the Wiktionary definition of "enfeoff" just to be safe.--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:50, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In the fifth paragraph of "Western Han", you mention "commanderies", another unusual word that could be explained. And following that is a sentence with five parenthetical phrases and five sources, which needs to be broken up. – Quadell (talk) 18:00, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's necessary to explain what a commandery is in this particular section, especially since it is covered in the "Government" section below and is linked to a separate article where it is explained. Also, which sentence needs to be broken up? I'm kind of confused here. Could you copy-and-paste the sentence here, so I know which one you are referring to? Thanks.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:08, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Even before Han's expansion into Central Asia, the travels of the diplomat Zhang Qian from 139–125 BCE established Chinese contacts with Dayuan (Fergana), Kangju (Sogdiana), Daxia (Bactria, formerly the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom), and knowledge of Shendu (Indus River valley of North India) and Anxi (the Persian Empire of Parthia), all of which eventually received Han embassies.[37][38][39][40][41]"
I changed the sentence to the version you suggested on your talk page. Good idea!--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article tends to overparenthesize. In parts, nearly every sentence has a parenthetical phrase. Certainly temporal notes like "(d. 106 BCE)" are helpful, and belong in parentheses, but others are not. Most of these should be rewritten to not use parentheses. Some can just be removed, as I did here, with no loss in readability; others will need sentence splitting.
It looks like you link to people's articles when they have articles, but list people's Chinese names only when they don't. I'm not sure this is useful. Instead, I think it would be better to create stubs for figures like Huhanye Shanyu and Gan Yanshou, and leave the Chinese spellings of their names out of this article. – Quadell (talk) 18:12, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Adding the Chinese characters for names of people who do not yet have articles follows the guidelines provided in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (use of Chinese language). I wouldn't mind creating stubs articles for these people, but I'd like to get more sources on them first and more info about them. Otherwise, we're talking about one-sentence stubs. As for the parenthetical phrases, I will get to work cleaning that up.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:17, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just finished a major cleanup of the article, rewording various sentences that had statements in parentheses and splitting apart rather large sentences into two or three. I hope you guys like the new improvements to the prose of the article!--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:04, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your changes are good. I made a few copyedits, and commented some on my talkpage, though I'd like to keep discussion here as much as possible. I'll continue reading and commenting today and tomorrow. – Quadell (talk) 21:30, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent! The article looks and reads much better now.--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:47, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a little confused by this sentence:

The general Zhang Huan (張奐) sided with the eunuchs and engaged in a shouting match with Dou Wu and his retainers; when the latter gradually deserted Dou's side, he was forced to commit suicide.

Was this "shouting match" a one-time event where members of the court were yelling at each other? Why was this notable? What does it mean that Dou Wu deserted his side? Does "Dou" mean Dou Wu or the Empress Dowager? And who committed suicide? – Quadell (talk) 23:34, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, "...while Emperor Ling spent much of his time play-acting with concubines..." Does this mean acting in plays? – Quadell (talk) 23:37, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, "After Yuan died, Cao was able to eliminate his sons who fought over his inheritance." Does this mean Cao was able to kill Yuan's sons while they fought over Yuan's inheritance? Or that Cao marginalizes their influence by encouraging them to fight over an inherinence? – Quadell (talk) 23:47, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'll try to answer this point by point.
Was this "shouting match" a one-time event where members of the court were yelling at each other? Why was this notable? What does it mean that Dou Wu deserted his side? Does "Dou" mean Dou Wu or the Empress Dowager? And who committed suicide?
You can read the whole story here at User:PericlesofAthens/Sandbox Cambridge2#The Fall of Han, or in the article History of the Han Dynasty#Partisan Prohibitions. I don't have room to discuss it in the main Han Dynasty article, but Zhang Huan basically had just come back from a military campaign on the frontier, and was informed that a coup was happening. He was forced to join sides (and didn't want to wind up on the wrong side of the coup). He was told that Dou Wu had become a traitor, so marched his forces up to the palace gate in a confrontation with Dou Wu. Both sides hurled insults at each other and accused each other of being rebels. Gradually, Zhang Huan won this verbal argument, as everyone began to desert Dou Wu's side. With almost no one left to defend him, Dou Wu decided to kill himself rather than be arrested and face "justice" in court (where a decision would no doubt be influenced by the eunuchs' desire to have him killed). It's amusing to note that no one besides Dou Wu died in this confrontation, as no actual physical fighting broke out. I can reword this sentence a bit if it is still confusing to you.--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Does this mean acting in plays?
No. As explained further in History of the Han Dynasty, he literally dressed up like a traveling salesman in his harem and had his concubines dress up as female market vendors who would flirt with him and fight over him and steal from each other (as was the stereotype of petty market merchants in Han times). Does this need to be clarified? Rafe de Crespigny used it as an example of how Emperor Ling showed little concern for state affairs (leaving that to his powerful eunuchs) and was much more concerned with messing around and having fun with women.--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Does this mean Cao was able to kill Yuan's sons while they fought over Yuan's inheritance? Or that Cao marginalizes their influence by encouraging them to fight over an inherinence?
Actually, as detailed in History of the Han Dynasty, the infighting allowed Cao Cao to first eliminate Yuan Tan, who was busy fighting his brothers at the same time. Yuan Shang and Yuan Xi did not want to share his fate, and so fled to the Wuhuan people. However, after Cao Cao defeated the Wuhuan chieftain Ta Dun, these two Yuan brothers fled to Gongsun Kang, who killed both of them and sent their heads to Cao Cao in submission (since he did not want to be liable for these two if Cao Cao came to Gongsun's territory to finally punish them). Perhaps I should reword this as well?--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just reworded these, except for the play-acting thing with Emperor Ling. Does that really need to be reworded?--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:29, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your rewordings are great. The entire article should be clear to someone who knows nothing about the Han Dynasty, and those changes help. I also reworded the play-acting part as "spent much of his time [[Sexual roleplay|roleplaying]] with concubines", which I think is an accurate description. – Quadell (talk) 00:48, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dude! Why didn't I think of that first! Lol. Roleplaying. It's so obvious! Good thinking.--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Under "Education, literature, and philosophy", the first sentence of the last paragraph looks out of place. "The student, scholar, and bureaucrat could be aided by a multitude of texts." But then you list works created by Han scholars, rather than previously created works used by Han scholars. Perhaps it should be replaced by something like "A multitude of important texts were created by Han scholars" or words to that effect. – Quadell (talk) 15:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm left with a number of questions under "Law and order" (though it's well written). What was legal and what was illegal? Was it legal to murder your wife, or slave? Were penalties different for different social classes? Was it illegal to speak against the Emperor, or Confucius, or the gods? Were alcohol or other drugs illegal? Prostitution? – Quadell (talk) 15:26, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Under "Clothing and cuisine", I see no milk or cheese products. I'm no expert, but isn't that unusual? Worth a mention? Also, does the clothing information refer to both sexes? Were there modesty requirements that are different from the modern English-speaking audience? Any info on cosmetics, or hairstyles? I understand not wanting to crowd the article with information, but a sentence seems appropriate to me. The Han Chinese clothing article says "Many East Asian and Southeast Asian national costumes, such as the Japanese kimono, the Korean hanbok and the Vietnamese áo tứ thân, all were influenced by Hanfu." That seems worthy of mention. (By the way, I'm finding rather little to do as a proofreader. It's written quite well.) – Quadell (talk) 15:35, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The "Religion, cosmology, and metaphysics" section directs readers to see Silk Road transmission of Buddhism for further information, but the section mentions neither Buddhism nor the Silk Road. Shouldn't Buddhism get a mention? – Quadell (talk) 15:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In the caption for File:Painted figures on a lacquer basket, Eastern Han Dynasty2.jpg, the phrase "Paragons of filial piety" is unclear. Who are paragons? The artists, the figures, or the members of the commandery? – Quadell (talk) 15:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The "History: Western Han" section says "To placate his prominent commanders from the war with Chu, Emperor Gaozu enfeoffed some of them as kings for their services. By 157 BCE, the Han court had replaced all of these kings with royal Liu family members, since their loyalty to the throne came into question." But the "Government: Kingdoms and marquessates" says "In the beginning of Han, the kingdoms—roughly the size of commanderies—were ruled by the emperor's male relatives as semi-autonomous fiefs." Is that a contradiction? – Quadell (talk) 16:08, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Once again, I'll answer these point by point.
But then you list works created by Han scholars, rather than previously created works used by Han scholars. Perhaps it should be replaced by something like "A multitude of important texts were created by Han scholars" or words to that effect.
Sure, those are works created by Han scholars, but they are also works that would have been utilized by Han gentry scholars for other gentrymen. Otherwise, there would be no point in writing a philosophical work if you had no audience to read it! Lol. But you're right in terms of this sentence needing to be reworded. Perhaps something like "A multitude of important texts were created and utilized by Han scholars." That's perhaps the best model, as it covers both.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm left with a number of questions under "Law and order" (though it's well written). What was legal and what was illegal? Was it legal to murder your wife, or slave? Were penalties different for different social classes? Was it illegal to speak against the Emperor, or Confucius, or the gods? Were alcohol or other drugs illegal? Prostitution?
Hmm. I'm not sure if prostitution was ever made illegal, but yes, you would be sentenced in court for murdering your wife, the same for murdering a slave. This is actually covered in Society and culture of the Han Dynasty, in various sections (not just the law and order section of that article). Alcohol was made a government monopoly and was a commonly taxed item when it was not a monopolized industry, so no, it was not illegal. I don't believe the ancient Chinese had any conception of making certain medicinal substances illegal either. And yes, it was illegal to profane the emperor, as discussed in Society and culture of the Han Dynasty. I think that there's simply not enough room in the main Han Dynasty article to include all of this stuff. These are things that are already discussed in the main article for society and culture where there is sufficient room for these details.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:36, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Under "Clothing and cuisine", I see no milk or cheese products.
You are a keen observer! Yes, even in modern times, the Chinese diet lacks dairy products of any kind, although with recent Western influences this is changing (very slowly, and perhaps only marginally). The Chinese viewed milk and cheese as foods fit for the northern pastoral nomads, whom they considered uncilivilized (and hence condemned dairy products as an uncivilized foodtsuff...an unfortunate development, I would say, since I don't know how anyone could live without provolone and cheddar! Lol). I'll try to find a source that says something about dairy foods during Han times. As for the clothes, everything mentioned except for skirts were unisex, including the materials used such as silk, wool, and furs. As for the traditional Hanfu robes spawning traditional clothing types in other countries, you are definitely right to assume this deserves mentioning here. I will try to find a source for that pronto. Hold on to your bootstraps...--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't Buddhism get a mention?
Yes, it should. I'll get on that right now. The reason I didn't add anything here to the main article is because this info was already found in the branch articles I created, and I was worried about the size of this article. I don't think that's too much of a concern now, since it seems very unlikely that the addition of one more sentence will cause people to raise objections over article size.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Is that a contradiction?
Yes it is. I meant "early", but said "beginning" instead. I just fixed that statement so that it agrees with the earlier one. Thanks for catching that!--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There should be a sentence on the navy under "Government: Military". Was it conscripted? – Quadell (talk) 18:43, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sure thing. I just added a sentence listing the three branches of the armed forces: infantry, cavalry, and navy.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:52, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Under "variations in currency", I don't think the weights of each coin are important enough to be in the article. The fact that Lu Zhi's coin was much lighter is important, but I would cut a lot of this section out, and include it only in "Ancient Chinese coinage". – Quadell (talk) 18:43, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the info is found at Economy of the Han Dynasty. Exactly which ones do you think are the most extraneous? All of them except for Empress Lu Zhi's coin?--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:52, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Since you asked, I got rid of most of them.--Pericles of AthensTalk 20:17, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At the top of the "Science, technology, and engineering" section (above "Writing materials"), I think there should be a sentence or two introducing the advancements, saying that this period "witnessed some of the most significant advancements in premodern Chinese science and technology" or "had an organized study of the natural world" or that "independently of Greek philosophers and other civilizations, ancient Chinese philosophers made significant advances in " yadda yadda. – Quadell (talk) 19:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what I can do.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:52, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's good to say anything unless I get a specific scholar's viewpoint. Otherwise, it will simply look like original research or an opinion of the Wiki editor.--Pericles of AthensTalk 20:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I hope you find what I just added sufficient, because I do not think any more additions would be helpful for the overall prose size of the article. That said, I think you'll like the new addition to the science and tech section!--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent! Thank you very much for your patience and invaluable suggestions. Without your input, this article wouldn't be half as good! One more question though: would you mind if I put our conversation in a collapsible text box?--Pericles of AthensTalk 01:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Great. Collapsible box it is (I discussed this with User:Quadell on his talk page).--Pericles of AthensTalk 01:17, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Awesome. Thanks for reviewing the article!--Pericles of AthensTalk 12:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for using some of your spare time to copyedit this article. It is very appreciated, I assure you!--Pericles of AthensTalk 01:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I'm very used to tacking inline citations one after the other. In fact, I've been doing it for years at Wiki without any objections or complaints raised by others about producing clutter and saving space. You can see many other featured articles do this as well, let alone the vast sea of non-featured articles using multiple citations for the same sentence. However, I am open to the idea of amending the article according to your suggestion. But only if a significant amount of editors here happen to agree with your suggestion. Thoughts, anyone?--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:43, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think having multiple citations in one footnote is a good idea. I do however think that consolidating excessive footnotes is.Zeus1234 (talk) 23:55, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Multiple citations within the same note is standard practice with note-based references everywhere. If you cite Smith, Johnson and Simpson for the same statement you put them in the same note, or place notes so that they reference different parts of a statement. To the best of my knowledge the use of notes as seen in this article does not exist anywhere else. I've seen this in other Wiki articles before, but this time it's been taken to a rather extreme extent. Hence the heads up. Consecutive notes can sometimes be meaningful, like when you're working with full-info notes, or, as pointed out, with notes that are used multiple times. I can also understand that it's a bit easier to work with when articles are in the process of expansion. But with an FAC that is supposed to be mature and stable, and with shortened notes no less, it really just a matter of superscript clutter without added verifiability. You might not notice it because you're used to it by now, but it looks incredibly cluttered to anyone who understands citation standards and isn't heavily involved with Wikipedia, ei a hellofalot of readers. And if you think it's not bad in your browser, just imagine how much more complicated it must be in print.
There's no guideline that recommends this practice, and I've seen no discussion supporting it either. I'd really like to hear exactly why you oppose the suggestion, Zeus.
Peter Isotalo 07:15, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have never seen an article that puts multiple references in the same footnote. Please point one out for me so I can see exactly what you mean.Zeus1234 (talk) 09:35, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
S. A. Andrée's Arctic balloon expedition of 1897 (note 16) is one example. I've used it in FAs that I've worked on as well, like Vasa (ship) (notes 2, 23, 47). I don't see why you're treating this as something exotic, though. You can probably find it in any print work that contains notes. More relevant, in my view, is that this appears to be a Wikipedian invention that you can't find anywhere else. Considering that we're usually trying to follow the various real world citations standards as closely as possible, this usage should be avoided unless there's some really strong argument in favor.
Peter Isotalo 07:44, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Pergamino. I've assembled a team of copyeditors who are working on the article right now, all of them from the Guild of Copyeditors. An enormous amount of progress has been made. I'll see what I can do about the "structural engineering" sub-section and shortening the lead section. However, please keep in mind that much has already been excised from the lead. Regards.--Pericles of AthensTalk 20:56, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Pergamino. There's a problem with having so many paragraphs in the lead. Wikipedia:Lead section states that the introductory text should be no more than four paragraphs. The lead cannot have five as it does now. Since you want more info about Society/Culture/Economics/Government/Science and Tech in the lead, some of the info summarizing the History section in the lead has to go. The political and military history dominates the lead section at the moment.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Awesome! Thank you for supporting the article.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:06, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I added many citations in certain spots so that the reader may choose from a variety of sources to verify a statement. I take it that you accept User:Pergamino's proposal about multiple source citations in a single footnote? If so I will now seriously consider amending the article according to Pergamino's proposal.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:59, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Small correction: the suggestion was mine, not Pergamino's. Just so he doesn't start taking flak for my pointers. :-) Seeing this explanation, though, I'd like to raise a word of caution. Make sure that all cited references can support the entire statement. It's not that likely to draw criticism, but if someone looks up one of the bonus references and doesn't find all the facts, they might start complaining that the citations are unclear. To avoid this, you might want to consider placing the most relevant reference(s) first and placing the rest after a "see also". If we take the sentence "Han-era mathematical achievements..." it could looks like this:
"Dauben (2007), 212, 219–222; see also Liu, Feng, Jiang, & Zheng (2003), 9–10; Needham (1986a), 22, 24–25, 99–101, 121; Temple (1986), 139, 142–143; Shen, Crossley, & Lun (1999), 388; Straffin (1998), 166."
Peter Isotalo 10:53, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hahaha! Yeah, sorry, that was me coming home from the bar a bit drunk last night. I got those "p" user names mixed up! Haha. I'll have to lay off the "Washington Apples" and Jack-and-Cokes for a while. They're a doozy. And good point. I'll put the most relevant references first (the sentence in mathematics is a great example of where each item is taken from one or two of the citations), but really, most of the multiple citations do support the whole statement.--Pericles of AthensTalk 15:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wow! I just finished fixing the citations in the entire History section! I'll take a break for now, but by the end of the day, all of the citations will conform to Peter's suggested model here. Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 20:34, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The citations are now all done! There are no longer any sentences with multiple footnotes tacked one on top of the other.--Pericles of AthensTalk 01:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Must have meant quite a bit of tinkering. Good job!
Peter Isotalo 08:36, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for image concerns as follows:

The OTRS's for Gary Lee Todd's pictures are excellent! All OTRS templates should be done in such a manner (but should it be done as a personalised template?). Just a few items need clarifications or actions. Jappalang (talk) 22:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm busy fixing the article's citations at the moment and I'm about to eat dinner, but I can tell you one thing about one of these images. The setup you saw at File:Gold animals.JPG was an old one which I replaced with a Gary Lee Todd template. I just fixed that image so that it now has the updated Gary Lee Todd template. I'll address these other concerns shortly. But for now my ravioli and pasta shells are calling me! Lol. Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:57, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What is with the five File:Blank.svgs in the Infobox? You mean the File:Blank.png? There's five of those in the infobox. Usually, a national flag is located there of the new nation or country that succeeded the one under discussion. For example, look at the infobox for Qing Dynasty. There was no such thing as national flags during Han times or even immediately after. This is a 19th-century Western introduction to China. File:Blank.png is actually not included in this article, but is simply part of the infobox template. I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to mess with that for the sake of this article. I believe that would produce technical problems elsewhere, no?.--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
??? File:History of China.gif is no not included in this article. However, File:History of China.png, placed in the Template:History of China, is located in this article. It also has an appropriate license (i.e. ((CopyrightedFreeUse))). Is this still a problem?--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:41, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
File:Que, or pillar gate, at the Wu Family Shrine.jpg was most certainly taken by an author who died more than 70 years ago, because it was taken by Édouard Chavannes (died 1918) when he visted the Wu Family Shrine in Shandong around the turn of the 20th century. I forgot to specify that when I originally uploaded the picture, although I have just edited it over at Commons to note that it was authored by Chavannes.--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:54, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are you sure that File:Guardians of Day and Night, Han Dynasty.jpg is a relief and not just a flat painting? The caption in the source I used, Robert Temple (1986), simply states that they are Han paintings on ceramic tile. Isn't a tile supposed to be flat? That's what I assumed. It's difficult to say if the image is raised or not, but it looks pretty flat to me.--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:00, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As for File:Mold for bronze gear Han dinasty.JPG, I left a message on the talk page of User:Hispalois, the uploader of the image, asking him where he took the photo (most likely from a museum).--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:07, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(reset indentations) For the Infobox, would it not be better to leave out those preceding and succeeding states? It seems weird and confusing to those of lesser know to see blank rectangles with arrows and no indication on what each is for. The Infobox creators should have catered for this circumstance.
File:Que, or pillar gate, at the Wu Family Shrine.jpg: Chavannes' death becomes irrelevant if this image was first published between 1923 and 2002. Was this image published before 1923, or was it unpublished until this book?
File:Guardians of Day and Night, Han Dynasty.jpg: from my encounters with Chinese arts, it is quite likely these are reliefs; not fully raised like those of Greek works, but just slightly raised from the tile surface (or the outlines are etched into the tiles). The textures of the surface around the outlines of the guardians and symbols suggest the "raised" style. However, Commons and Wikipedia operates on the principles of verifibility, so if Temple says they are simply paintings, we can take his word for them unless someone else brings another reliable source (or expert opinion) to dispute it; thus stricken.
File:Gold animals.JPG: the licenses include cc-3.0 sharealike and unported. The terms for the two have a slight but crucial difference—attribution for derivatives. Were there two OTRSs for Todd's images? If not, is Unported the correct license, or is it Sharealike?
By using the template, File:History of China.gif is considered part of this article. The main concern is whether this image is indeed free, and whether the copyright holder is correctly identified. Jappalang (talk) 01:24, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I edited Template:History of China and explained the problem in my edit summary. I also got rid of those blank boxes in the infobox.--Pericles of AthensTalk 01:58, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Was this image published before 1923, or was it unpublished until this book? That's a good question. I do not know. If I remember correctly, the caption in Recarving China's Past (2005) does not specify if it was published previously. I take it this is a bad thing? I'll go by my school library tomorrow and check out the book again just to make sure.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As for File:Gold animals.JPG, the unported license was simply a leftover from a long-ago previous edit that I forgot to delete. That license does not belong on the page, so I have stricken it.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have stricken some, and have also clarified the issue with File:History of China.gif at Template talk:History of China#Image has no copyright (the explanation for removal is a bit off). Jappalang (talk) 02:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Cool. Just to be safe, I have stricken File:Que, or pillar gate, at the Wu Family Shrine.jpg from the article, until I can go to the library tomorrow and confirm if the picture was not published until 2005, or sometime earlier (i.e. 1923 or before). Is that the last obstacle for you to strike your opposition?--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, remaining images are verifiably in public domain or appropriately licensed. Opposition so stricken. Jappalang (talk) 02:26, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Aha! I just visited the library as promised, and I am relieved to find out that I can add the picture back to the article! I checked out Recarving China's Past at the library and found out that the que pillar-gate picture was originally published in Mission archéologique dans la Chine septentrionale by Édouard Chavannes (Paris: E Leroux, 1909-, Series Publications de l'École française d'Éxtrême-Orient, vol. 13, pt. one.) So, Jappalang, since the picture was originally published before 1923, can I add it back to the article now?--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, please add it back. I have added the relevant tag in the image page. Jappalang (talk) 21:49, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:50, 18 April 2009 [52].

SR Leader Class

[edit]
Nominator(s): Bulleid Pacific (talk) 20:33, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because the experimental nature of the Leader class represented an important departure from traditional British steam locomotive design in an attempt to address some of the shortcomings associated with their operation. Bulleid Pacific (talk) 20:33, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Southern Railway seemed to take the view that 'if Bulleid asked for square wheels, then give them to him', (St. John Thomas & Whitehouse, SR 150: A Century and a Half of the Southern Railway (Newton Abbot: David & Charles, 1983), 25), and apart from this rather vexing statement by the 'Top Brass' at Waterloo, the reason why they the the Leader was constructed at all has never really been ascertained. Officially, as mentioned in the text, it was supposed to replace the aging Drummond M7 locomotives. Suffice to say, to go any further into it would start entering the realms of original research and speculation, as there is still heated debate as to 'why' they were constructed.

As to the photographs, it is mentioned later on in the article that the design was intended to be put through carriage washers as an economy measure in terms of manpower, and the fact that a cab at either end improved visibility and operation procedures. I hope this goes some way towards allaying some of you comments. Thanks for your interest, --Bulleid Pacific (talk) 21:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:00, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

clarification The images are claimed to be under expired crown copyright. The state and the government are two seperate entities, and these images were produced by a state owned industry, what makes you think they fall under crown copyright? Fasach Nua (talk) 17:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The crown is the head of state in the UK. All official government documents are therefore crown copyright. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Would you have a reference for the management structure of BR during the period these images were taken? Fasach Nua (talk) 21:23, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What has BR's management structure got to do with anything? It was a state-owned industry; the UK's head of state has been the crown since 1688, hence the crown copyright. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
British Transport Commission explains the setup 1947-1962; British Railways Board 1962-2001. (The articles are currently unsourced, but accurate.) British Rail was a trading name of the Commmission/Board, which were in turn part of the Department for Transport – so British Rail was a "true" trading arm of the government, rather than a Northern Rock style "private company in which the government happens to be the majority shareholder", which seems to be the confusion here. – iridescent 21:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, the article states that "Its first chairman was Lord Hurcomb", but it doesnt say if this was a managerial board or a board of directors and the article doesnt have any external refs, do you know of an external link for this? Fasach Nua (talk) 22:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Official summary of the history of the management of the nationalised railways at the UK Government National Archives. – iridescent 19:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In finalising the locomotive, Bulleid saw that changes regarding the labour intensity of steam operation were being mooted, and in response the new locomotive was to push forward the boundaries of steam power in the little time available before nationalisation in 1948." Finalising the locomotive or the design? What does "mooted" mean here? It generally has two meaning, the older legal "hypothesised", or the newer "unimportant". Which does it mean here? Why was Bulleid so keen to "push forward the boundaries of steam power anyway"?
  • "The Leader project became part of Bulleid's desire to modernise the steam locomotive along the principles based upon experience with the Southern Railway's fleet of electric stock." Became part of his desire? So it wasn't why he designed it, but only later did it become important to him?
  • "However, these innovations were some of the reasons why the project was discontinued in the early 1950s." Surely it wasn't the innovations that caused the problems, but their failure?
  • "Only one Leader was completed for trial purposes, although four more were in varying states of completion." How many were completed for purposes other than "trial"? Four more were in varying stages of completion when?
  • Is it really necesssary to label the image in the infobox as a photograph? The other pictures aren't identified as photographs.

--Malleus Fatuorum 21:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:50, 18 April 2009 [53].

Rufous-crowned Sparrow

[edit]
Nominator(s): Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 04:29, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

After a long absence, I’ve decided to nominate another bird article for FA status- my namesake, the Rufous-crowned Sparrow. I believe that this article meets the criteria and covers all researched aspects of this fairly random bird quite well. Thanks to Philcha for giving the article a great and thorough GA review and to Jimfbleak, Casliber, and Shyamal for handling most of the GA review when I was called away for real life issues. Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 04:29, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • [[American sparrow|sparrow]]. Why not have the more accurate American Sparrow unpiped
  • | subdivision = (in taxobox). Personally, I'd just put "see text", but if you keep the list better as A. r. australis etc
  • rufous in color - isn't in color redundant?
  • second para starts in singular then drifts to plural
  • Oh dear, you have both citation and cite style references, can't do that. Howell and Webb needs changing to cite book
  • Journal refs have variations in the degree of capitalisation compare refs 17 &18 in the article titles, prefer a standard style with minimum capitalisation jimfbleak (talk) 06:01, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • thrives in the open areas that result from an area being burned. repeats "area" - what about thrives in the open areas created by burning. or thrives in open areas cleared by burning."? jimfbleak (talk) 05:58, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good call. Fixed. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 11:55, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think that this article is essentially well written, but I'll wait until Guettarda's very reasonable issues are addressed before offering what can only be moral support given my involvement in the article jimfbleak (talk) 07:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:39, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All fixed. Whith 11, I looked at it and decided it is closest to a journal, so switched the ref. Thank you. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 11:55, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone through and eliminated the empty parameters. I didn't find any other logical punctuation mistakes though. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 22:33, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Disambiged. Thank you for running this check. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 11:55, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Sorry that this is so long and nit-picky...I like the article, I think you've done a good job.

Infobox

Lead:

Taxonomy:

Subspecies

The source website is weird in that all of the pages have the same address. In the column on the left, there is a button for Taxonomy that contains the source's list of eighteen subspecies. Is there a way to direct the viewer directly to that subpage? Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 02:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I see. Clicking on the link and selecting "open link in a new tab" (or whatever the IE equivalent is) usually works in a case like that. And, as it turns out, the source for the taxonomy is ITIS. Guettarda (talk) 03:36, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Do you think it would work better if I rotated the three styles and ignored consistency? Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 02:33, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I don't know. That might work. As would a single consistent (but repetitive) format. Guettarda (talk) 03:32, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Description

Distribution and habitat

Ecology and behavior

Diet

Not sure how to fix this one. Not much is known on the sparrow's drinking habits, so the paragraph is stuck at one sentence. Per the passive voice, this is based solely on limitated observations, which make be hesitant to move away from including that this is only when observed. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 03:27, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reproduction

I don't believe so, and even if it is, I don't think that there is an established, universal dividing mark. And I don't know why mating season would redirect there instead of the breeding season article. It is a bit strange. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 19:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Conservation

Guettarda (talk) 15:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, thank you for taking the time with the article to do a review this comprehensive. I believe that I have addressed all of your concerns except for two- the water paragraph and why the species was switched from Ammodramus to Aimophila. With the water, I want to keep the bit about not enough research in the sentence, which I’m not sure how to do with an active sentence. For the movement between genera, I cannot find anything through the might of Google that mentions why the switch was made. As Aimophila existed when the species was described, the only thing that I can figure out was that Cassin made a mistake which a later author corrected. Again, I haven’t found anything even suggesting this. Again, thank you for examining the article and pointing out numerous means of improvement. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 20:53, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: This is a great article, Rufous! It doesn't feel robust, though: other articles on similar species (such as the recently-featured Tree Sparrow are about twice this size. I'm not sure it's comprehensive quite yet. The lede is still very short (just the two paragraphs). Tree Sparrow has an entire section on Relationships with humans that is barely touched upon in this article. Obviously, if there hasn't been as much research, there's no way you can expand upon what doesn't exist. Yet I get the feeling there's more to be said here. Firsfron of Ronchester 01:05, 12 April 2009 (UTC) [reply]

I'll take another look through the refs, but per a Relationship with humans section I'm pretty sure there isn't anything out there. The sparrow isn't particularly noticeable or striking to get extra attention, lives in largely unpopulated areas, isn't endangered overall, and is a New World bird and therefore is less likely to have any art depicting it commented upon. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 02:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC) [reply]
Understood. I'm going to take a deeper look at the article over the next couple of days, and offer additional observations. Overall, the article looks really good. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:43, 12 April 2009 (UTC) [reply]
As the main editor of Tree Sparrow, I'd agree with RCS - the Tree Sparrow breeds across the whole of Eurasia, is well studied, and as an urban bird in east Asia, it has been immortalised in Oriental art. The RCS has a restricted range in non-urban habitat, and is little studied. I'll see if I can find some more, just in case jimfbleak (talk) 05:35, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the double-check, Jim. I do understand that the two species may not be directly comparable. Best, Firsfron of Ronchester 05:45, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
this says of RCS "known only to the fortunate few" and comments on its retiring nature. There is no hint of any myth, legend or folklore that I can find, even without looking for reliable sources, and although it has attracted some research interest, it can't compare with Tree Sparrow, which is almost a standard for studying non-migratory species. There is nothing on Aimophila taxonomy to compare with Passer, RCS hasn't been introduced anywhere, and it doesn't use agricultural land. Whilst it might be foolhardy to say there is nothing else out there, I think this is probably about as comprehensive as it can get jimfbleak (talk) 09:01, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've left the author a note. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 19:04, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I'm the photographer and I uploaded the picture, making it public domain. It looks like someone transferred it to Commons, thereby becoming the "uploader". Curiously, I'm not seeing anything in the deletion log -- that must have been before we retained deleted images. If you would like (since it's low-res -- 400x300) I can dig out the original high-res image and give you that instead (I was using a dialup in the early days of Wikipedia, so often uploaded low-res images). Antandrus (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Antandrus personally uploaded the file in a larger size at File:Chaparral1.jpg, which I've replaced in the article. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 19:36, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image issue resolved. All other images have adequate descriptions and verifiable licenses. Awadewit (talk) 01:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Still needs some work. Sasata (talk) 02:15, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Conditional Support: full support after the addition of hot-off-the-press phylogenetic analysis :) Sasata (talk) 06:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC) Has everything I want to see, and it's nice to have the extra descriptions in the subspecies section. Sasata (talk) 02:37, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Smallish is a direct quote from Byers and seems to refer to the RcS in relationship to the other members of its genus. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 04:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Subspecies descriptions are extremely important; alas, I am unable to find a description of each subspecies anywhere, as the resources just note range and author. The few subspecies I have found specific descriptions for are vague, saying things like "darker than the subspecies to the north and lighter than the subspecies to the south". Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 03:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. The DaCosta paper might have some more info about the subspecies that could be fit in somewhere in that section. Sasata (talk) 06:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd love to read the article, but am unable to find it on the internet beyond an abstract. I'll leave a note on the WT:Bird page to see if anyone gets the Journal of Avian Biology. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 04:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference cg was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ DaCosta JM, Spellman GM, Escalante P, Klicka J. (2009). "A molecular systematic revision of two historically problematic songbird clades: Aimophila and Pipilo". Journal of Avian Biology 40(2): 206–219.
I believe I've addressed all of your comments except for the three with detailed notes above. Thank you for reviewing the article. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 04:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments A very good effort, and nearly there, I'd say. I'm wondering about a couple of things:

A. r. rupicola was described by Van Rossem in 1946.[10] It is found in the mountains of southwestern Arizona.
How about varying some: A. r. rupicola, described by Van Rossem in 1946,[10] is found in the mountains of southwestern Arizona.[11]

MeegsC | Talk 11:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

LOL. That is what I get for trusting a citation template:) Thanks for pointing it out, though I had to go to manually typing it out to make it work. I put three(!) distinct styles in the subspecies subsection as well, and descriptions are now on their way. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 12:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quick Break Hello. I'm leaving for a 36 hour trip in a few minutes. I believe all issues above are addressed except for the new Aimophila paper, which Sabine's Sunbird has a copy of and I'll try to get when I get back. Thank you. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 13:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've got the article and will try to put the information in later tonight as well as fatten out the lede. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 23:06, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, the paper has now been integrated into the article and the lede has been beefed up a bit. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that all issues raised have now been addressed. Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 21:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"A 2008 study of the genus Aimophila divided it into four genera..." I think it should be mentioned somewhere that it's phylogenetic analysis, and did it really divide the genus into genera? Sasata (talk) 21:37, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add that, and the paper recommended splitting the genus into four genera, though one was lumped into a seperate, pre-existing genus. Obviously, the list-keepers haven't had a chance to evaluate and actually accept the split due to it coming out this year, but the paper recommended it. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 01:49, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Moral Support. Because of my involvement in this article I have an obvious COI, and I don't expect my vote to carry any weight. However, the article is at the stage now where I would support if I were not compromised. jimfbleak (talk) 15:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Support. (moral or otherwise) Like Jim, have been involved and have a COI as a WP:Birds member, and I also agree with comment about richness (or otherwise) of sources c/w Tree Sparrow from Jim etc. I reckon it is over the line. Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:50, 18 April 2009 [54].

Forest Park (Portland)

[edit]
Nominator(s): Finetooth (talk) 00:20, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it finally meets all the criteria. This urban park is large, heavily forested, and heavily used. I thought the article was nearly comprehensive months ago, but User:llywrch, who did a peer review, made many helpful suggestions about traffic, crime, and other park problems that I had completely overlooked. In addition, User:EncMstr provided photos of trails, trees, and trail workers that significantly improved the article. Finetooth (talk) 00:20, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you kindly. Finetooth (talk) 01:51, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Truco. Finetooth (talk) 18:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your kind words and support. Finetooth (talk) 18:07, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your kind words and helpful suggestions. In response to your suggestion about Macleay Park, I have altered the last part of the "History section to say, "These smaller parks became part of the larger park when it was finally created. Some of them, such as Macleay Park, are still referred to by their original names even though they are part of Forest Park." I hope that makes the connection more clear, and I thank you for the suggestion.
In the "Wildwood Trail" section of the article, Washington Park is already described as "adjacent" to Forest Park. The map in the infobox shows their exact physical relationship, and in response to your suggestion I have changed the map caption to say, "Location of Forest Park and Washington Park in Portland". Washington Park is so small on the map that it would be easy to miss without this addition to the caption. Thanks for raising this issue.
The "Wildwood Trail" section says that 27 miles (43 km) of Wildwood Trail is in Forest Park and that the trail is , "... the longest section of the 40 Mile Loop, a trail network of roughly 150 miles (240 km) reaching many parts of the Portland metropolitan area." I honestly can't think of what to add to this that would make it more clear. The 40 Mile Loop article to which I've linked spells out the details and includes a map of the citywide trail network.
Your point about new land acquisition is a good one. I will carefully read the material you've provided links to and add something about what Metro is up to. I'll post an update here when I've sorted this out. Thanks again. Finetooth (talk) 17:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The link to the Portland Tribune article was most helpful. In light of the doubts about the "largest urban forest" claim, I've softened the lead to say "one of the largest", and in the History section I've changed the text to include the controversy, citing the Tribune. Finetooth (talk) 18:03, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Glad the comments are helpful, and I like what you've done. I'm sorry I didn't catch this when in peer review, as I understand these are kind of big concerns and take some time to address.
I do think that Forest Park's role as something of a cornerstone of Portland's park system, and its relation to these other elements, needs to be emphasized a bit more, though I don't know exactly how. Here's a couple options: the "Wildwood Trail" section could become a subsection of a new "Recreational use" section, which could have a brief overview paragraph. Or, the "Wildwood Trail" section and the "History" section could become subsections of a new "Human use" section, again with a brief overview. Thoughts on that? -Pete (talk) 23:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oops. We had an edit conflict, I think. I was about to add that your suggestions about Metro were spot on. I've added a paragraph about Metro's work to the bottom of the History section. That was a very good catch on your part. Most of the acreage that Metro has acquired or protected is outside the park boundaries and doesn't show up in the official park size. Nevertheless, it is important to the health of the park and the creatures that live there. Finetooth (talk) 23:57, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
While I'm willing to look for a reliable source that says the park is a cornerstone of the Portland park system, I don't believe it would be a good idea to create new sections along the lines you are suggesting. Finetooth (talk) 00:07, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand, maybe the quote I've just added to the Geography section will do the trick. Does that help? Finetooth (talk) 04:02, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
After further rumination, I've decided to remove the Houle quote, which doesn't seem to add much that is substantive, and to work with your Recreational use suggestion instead of resisting like a cat that doesn't want a bath. More later. Finetooth (talk) 20:00, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I have reasonably addressed the cornerstone question this time. Looking outside the box, which was the park boundary in this case, I added a regional parks and trails context into which the park fits. 'Recreational use" morphed into "Recreational network" and became more interesting the more I looked. Please let me know what you think and if you have further suggestions. Finetooth (talk) 05:20, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, thanks for putting so much effort into that. I meant to work on it myself, but wikidrama, real life, work, and general laziness conspired to keep me away from this fine project for a bit. Your efforts have exceeded my expectations in nearly every respect. The only further change I'd make is to shift the emphasis on Metro's 2006/07 activity to putting it in the context of its Natural Areas Program, which it began exploring in 1991. I'd suggest something along the lines of the following paragraph (which probably belongs before the paragraph about the 2005 Oregonian article). I'm including it here instead of in the article, because it probably oughtta have that Finetooth polish before it goes in. (As a side note, I'm really disappointed in how little information about the program itself exists on Metro's site. Reading between the lines, it appears to be a major program with a life of its own within the agency; however, their web site treats only specific initiatives, and the new oversight committee, not the program itself. I think I may try to contact the committee and request that they update their web site with this info.)
-Pete (talk) 01:42, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, one other thing...I actually liked that Houle quote. I think you initially added it out of a desire to add substance to the article; and you're right, it wasn't the ideal way to do that. However, I am of the (perhaps minority) view that the occasional quotation like this really adds color to an article, as long as it's not a substitute for substantive citations. You may recall a similar discussion we had about the Tim Egan quote on Columbia River. I'd love to see that quote included somewhere. It's not going to diminish my enthusiastic support !vote for this FAC, but I'm just sayin'. -Pete (talk) 01:46, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Did I say "one other thing?" I can't get enough of thinking about this article. I wonder if there is a good way to adjust the language at the end of the article. I remember the incident well about the homeless man and his daughter. It seems to me that (apart from a little initial, unfounded nervousness about the nature of their relationship) that the man was generally warmly received by the community and the press after they were found. Technically, it is accurate to say he committed a crime; however, I think that captures only a minor part of the story. The man was generally perceived as a father doing his best to provide for his daughter in spite of his significant lack of resources and, if I recall correctly, significant PTSD as a Vietnam vet (manifesting as an aversion to urban homeless life, both as his own preference and out of concern for his daughter's safety). He had a library in their makeshift home, and was doing his best to provide an education to his daughter. I believe there was a significant charitable effort that resulted in a large number of people donating money to enable him to rent a home.
Anyway, I don't think there's an obvious way to put it in another section, but I think there's probably a way to adjust the wording so that it makes it clear that "criminal" is not the primary identification for this man. -Pete (talk) 02:02, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
<outdent>Thanks, Pete. I'll consider all this and work on improvements. Finetooth (talk) 02:21, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have re-added the Houle quotation. I re-organized the "Crime" section as "Crime and other trouble" to include dogs, lack of funding, etc., and to allow splitting the father-daughter off into their own paragraph instead of having them rather insensitively lumped in with the murderers. I agree with you that they deserved sympathy and help, and I'm glad they got it. I revised the Natural Areas Program along the lines you suggested, adding the 1991 inception date and citation, and clarifying that the program covers projects in three counties. However, I think it's very important to note the 865 acres have not been "added to the park through the Natural Areas Program." The source you cite goes on to say, "More than 600 of these acres are located in proximity to the northern end of the existing park boundaries... " I've tried to make more clear in the revised paragraph that the Metro additions are mostly outside the park and that they include environmental easements on private land as well as actual land purchases by the public entity. Thanks for these additional helpful suggestions. Finetooth (talk) 18:18, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - All images have excellent descriptions and verifiable licenses. Awadewit (talk) 18:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for checking these and for your kind words. Finetooth (talk) 21:16, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good catch. My set of the maps seems to have no ISBN printed on it. However, Powell's Books lists the set under the ISBN you cite, and I have added it to the map citations in the article. By the way, although you meant well, I'd rather not use the Harvard citations, and I removed them. It's best to discuss changes to the citation format with the main contributing editors before changing the format. I more-or-less see how the Harvards work, but I find them distracting. Finetooth (talk) 05:57, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Enthusiastically. Thanks, Finetooth, for your thoughtful consideration of my feedback, and for your hard work both before and during this FAC. Great work! -Pete (talk) 17:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Pete, for your kind words and your many helpful suggestions. Finetooth (talk) 18:31, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Julian, for your kind words and support. Finetooth (talk) 18:31, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:50, 18 April 2009 [55].

Zanzibar Revolution

[edit]
Nominator(s): Dumelow (talk) 13:36, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article was previously nominated in February but I delisted it as there were issues brought up with the prose. The article has had a peer review (by User:Brianboulton) and a copy edit (by User:EyeSerene) since then which has (hopefully!) improved the prose. I have waited until now to renominate as I wanted to wait until I had enough free time to rectify any problems that are picked up on. I believe the article is meets all of the Featured Article Criteria and is a good treatment of the subject - Dumelow (talk) 13:36, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for checking it out, I have fixed the duplicated ref. I have left in the link to the Shirazi disambiguation page as I think it is relevant in the context. The link explains that a Shirazi is a person from Shiraz (in Iran) and describes its different meaning in East Africa - Dumelow (talk) 15:26, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, thats fine by me.--Truco 15:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I gave this a long peer review recently, and was impressed with its thoroughness and the evident depth of research. I want to support, but at present there are too many prose glitches to satisfy criterion 1a. Many of these were not present when I reviewed the article.

Many thanks for giving this another check over Brian, it is much appreciated. I will go through your points and try to solve each one, cheers - Dumelow (talk) 13:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have replaced it with parliamentary which specifies that they were elections to a governing body - Dumelow (talk) 13:02, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have followed your suggestion here - Dumelow (talk) 13:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have replaced that bit with: "The ASP branch secretary for Pemba, a Ugandan called John Okello, had sent Karume to the mainland to ensure his safety". Let me know if that is any better - Dumelow (talk) 13:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC) [reply]
Better, but "a Ugandan called John Okello" sounds a bit amateurish. I'd say: "the Ugandan-born ex-police officer John Okello"
You are right, that sounds much better. I have changed it - Dumelow (talk) 16:51, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good point, changed to although - Dumelow (talk) 13:19, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have changed this slightly, it now reads "and looted Arab property", which hopefully now conveys the right meaning - Dumelow (talk) 13:56, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I split it as you suggested - Dumelow (talk) 13:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I split this sentence and expanded the second one a bit - Dumelow (talk) 14:05, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done - Dumelow (talk) 14:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK I have split this sentence and will take a look through for other such "and" sentences, thanks - Dumelow (talk) 14:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have tweaked the above sentence a bit. Brianboulton (talk) 15:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I have split this up and added some clarification - Dumelow (talk) 14:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC) [reply]
Check again: I think you've lost some words in your editing, after "known". It doesn't make sense at the moment. Brianboulton (talk) 15:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Doh! Yep I dropped "to be receiving advisers from", I have readded it. Cheers - Dumelow (talk) 16:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am not great with images, there are probably too many fair-use pictures here. I am considering getting rid of the one of Karume or Okello's men (I think it is importance to have the mass grave picture) do you have any ideas which one (or both?) should go? I have clarified the parade caption. I did not upload the Centaur image so I do not know where it came from. Thanks - Dumelow (talk) 14:42, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Jappalang is better able to advise you than I am, on the issue of non-free images. I would agree with you that the mass grave is the best to keep if you are restricted to one, and I'd keep the mercenaries photo above the Karume one – it gives a fairly graphic picture of revolution on the streets. But wait for Jappalang. To find the Centaur image, use the link on the image description page. This takes you to a Back Issues link. Follow that until you find the June 1955 magazine issue, then scroll through until you find the Centaur pic. Brianboulton (talk) 15:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have added the page number to the description page and will wait for further advice on the images - Dumelow (talk) 17:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These are relatively minor matters which if attended to will make the article a worthy FA, and I will be pleased to add my support at that stage. Brianboulton (talk) 12:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Excellent, even inspired prose. I did not encounter a single copyedit worth mentioning - a rare occurence indeed.
Many thanks, I'll go through your points and try to solve them - Dumelow (talk) 17:24, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • A comment on the current political status of the country, while arguably outside of the scope of the article, would add further depth.
  • RFA Hebe .1972.jpg requires better attribution. I don't contest it's use, but using the appropriate templates is a good idea.
I have added the standard summary template and summarised the creator/uploader's relevant text - Dumelow (talk) 17:24, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I will not claim to be an expert, I have fairly extensive experience with free and non-free images and their appropriate uses over at the Graphics Lab. "Karume and chinese.jpg" meets fair use criteria, similarly "Zanzibar revolution troops.jpg" and "Zanzibar grave.jpg"
  • These images are low resolution, irreplaceable and their source is clearly stated. Additional comments on the image pages regarding their contents and significance would be valuable.
That is a good idea. I will try to sort something out later this evening (bit busy at the moment) - Dumelow (talk) 17:45, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have expanded the purpose and descriptions of the images. Let me know if there is still some improvements to be made, cheers - Dumelow (talk) 20:08, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I trust that an attempt has been made to contact Barghash at [56] to ascertain the original source(s) of the images and ensure fair attribution to the relevant authors.
A very good point, I should have tried that before (this article has been on a back burner for a while). I will fire off an email to him now and try to sort that out - Dumelow (talk) 17:25, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no formal limit on the number of non-free images in an article. My POV: Non-specific, over-zealous wikilawyering does the encyclopedia no favours.
  • User:Fasach Nua, the author of the above oppose links to User:Angr#A_parable on his talk page, which opposes the use of any non-free images in a free content encyclopedia. I believe that this clarifies his POV. Further, Fasach Nua has been warned for disruptive editing no fewer than 11 times and 16 posts have been made on his talk page regarding FACs that he opposed on the grounds of using fair-use images without clarification. I believe that this demonstrates his modus operandi.
  • Excellent work, Dumelow. I look forward to your Featured Topic. Dhatfield (talk) 16:25, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah me too! I think History of Zanzibar (which is pretty bare and has only two sources) might be next on my list as there is already a featured List of Sultans of Zanzibar. It might take me a while to get the whole topic covered though! - Dumelow (talk) 20:10, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for looking at the article. Yes it is very annoying that they were the only journal articles I could find which dealt with the revolution (and even then somewhat indirectly, Parsons writing mainly about the mutinies and Speller about the British reaction - although both deal quite extensively with the actual revolution as well) but I simply could not find any others. However I do think that the article is comprehensive, being backed up by eight contemporary news reports, and contains almost everything that is known about this rather confusing and ill-documented revolution - Dumelow (talk) 14:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I hear you; lack of available sources can be very fustrating. I'm not disputing the comprehensiveness of the page, just that its is drawn from a relatively narrow range of views. I need to look closer at what claims these two are being used to support, if it is just basic facts, there is no real problem. Do you have access to online / university etc liabries? Maybe ask other editors who have brough articles on modern African history here if they can pass on material (I hope that doesn't sound condesending). I'll see what I can find (will take a few days as I am busy stuffing myself with choclate eggs at the moment). Ceoil (talk) 14:27, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I have access to the University of Nottingham library but it doesn't carry anything of note. Most of the books on this era are, unfortunately, of the unreliable memoir/autobiography type. I think the refs look unbalanced as most of the speller/parsons one come under the foreign reaction section. In the important sections detailing the actual revolution (background, revolution, aftermaths) they are more varied. By my count those sections include 11 parsons references, 26 speller references and 41 others - whilst still slanted towards speller it is far from based entirely on him. Speller picks up alot more refs in the foreign reaction (particularly British response) section due to his paper focussing on that aspect and for which he is the only writer who focuses on that aspect. If you find any useful references please let me know and I would be more than glad to add them to the article - Dumelow (talk) 17:03, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The legacy section is very much underdeveloped. It only reiterates what was said earlier. I'm sure there were deep political, economic and societal revibrations not yet hinted at in the article's current state. Also is this section properly named; would aftermat or some such, be more appropriate. I realse that ready availability of sources is an issue; but I doubt that they are not out there to be found. Ceoil (talk) 19:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, I have been looking around and found some information on a social housing project in a geography journal which I have added and a little about how the revolution is seen by historians. There is also a source on the impacts on the youth of Zanzibar which seems quite useful which I will try to get around to adding later today or tomorrow. Let me know if this sort of thing is a useful addition to the article. Many thanks - Dumelow (talk) 17:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have now completely rewritten the legacy section and it includes a lot more about the post-revolution history and politics. Hopefully it is better now? - Dumelow (talk) 11:47, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Section is much improved. I've swithced to support on the basis that the sources you have used meet WP:RS, and are the best available. Ceoil (talk) 15:04, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on criterion 3 as follows: Although Faschua Nua opposed without much elaboration, his opinion is not baseless. Fair use images are mainly meant to show something that words cannot effectively convey; they support the text written, to illustrate some concept (art style, atmosphere, metaphysical commentary) that have been discussed, so that readers gain a further understanding of what has been said. A picture that can be expressed with words alone fails this idea. Furthermore, when a non-free image is used, it must be clearly identified as to who the copyright owner of the photo is (the purpose, which I hazard, to be for attribution and contact in case someone wishes to reproduce the image). Ref: WP:NFCC, which fair use images have to comply with all of its 10 criteria.

Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 02:02, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments, they are very useful as my knowledge of what can be fair-use is quite poor. I could not find a screenshot that showed the bodies any clearer than the one that is in there (the only video I have seen is of too poor quality), would it be better to remove it entirely? I will remove the other two images from the article as it is now clear to me that they are not needed. Many thanks - Dumelow (talk) 17:22, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
After considering this more carefully, I agree with Jappalang (thank you for the comprehensive and rational arguments) regarding File:Zanzibar revolution troops.jpg and File:Karume and chinese.jpg. The mass grave, however is very evocative for me. Maybe it's something about having lived in Africa and having seen the 'politics' first hand. This image was taken from a helicopter, using a video camera. With all due respect, Jappalang, I'm not sure you understand that someone standing next to the pit with a Nikon was the next candidate to be in it. This was not Vietnam, Beirut or Yugoslavia. This was Zanzibar in 1964 and if African revolutions posed for mug shots, they would look like this.
Regarding fair use: the best analogy I have been able to come up for fair use images relates to plagiarism. Not that I equate the two, I don't, but in order to ensure that one is not violating the spirit of the law (the letter is merely a crude approximation to the spirit) it is crucial to find and acknowledge the original authors of the work so that any credit due for the creation of the work accrues to them, rather than oneself or another plagiarist. Credit where credit is due. Dhatfield (talk) 22:55, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I thought the camera crew would have a higher power zoom lens available. A low resolution sample of the film showed that there was one scene where they flew around a graveyard, and the copter swooped in low, giving a close-up view of a circle of dead in one corner (under a tree I think). That might be a better representation of the event than the graves. Jappalang (talk) 01:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean the scene at 1:05:15 in this version? I have a screen cap and if you are OK with it I will replace the other image - Dumelow (talk) 12:39, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
1:05:10 (close up) or 1:05:12 (slightly farther, circular shape more pronounced) would be good; however, the important thing is how convincing the fair use rationale for the image can be written up. You might want to focus on the historical significance (why is this image significant to the Revolution, which part of the imagery cannot be easily described in words) and that such images cannot be freely reproduced. Jappalang (talk) 05:10, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK I used the further away image and uploaded it at File:Zanzibar revolution graves2.JPG, I have replaced the other image (and nommed it for speedy deletion). I have tried to create a robust fair use rationale by following your guidelines. Hopefully the rationale includes all that you wanted (but I am terrible with images so please let me know if it needs more) - Dumelow (talk) 12:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have uploaded a clearer but smaller sized screenshot of the same scene. I think this image has better significance of the event than the previous (to show the organised nature of the killings), but as this is subjective, others might have a different opinion. Jappalang (talk) 22:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thankyou Jappalang, the new image is much better - Dumelow (talk) 10:27, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It is thought that this was an attempt to maintain stability in East Africa, where several army riots had been sparked by the uprising." A bit weasel.
Fixed, see below - Dumelow (talk) 10:53, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • one link to dis. page (Shirazi) needs fixing.
I have left this in as it contains the East African definition of what a Shirazi is (see first FAC comment) - Dumelow (talk) 11:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Electoral fraud was suspected." By whom? Unclear.
By the ASP, fixed - Dumelow (talk) 10:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1963, with the number of parliamentary seats increased to 31, another round of voting saw a repeat of the 1961 elections. The ASP, led by Abeid Amani Karume, won 54 percent of the vote but only 13 seats,[11] while the ZNP/ZPPP won the rest and set about strengthening its hold on power." How could this happen? Anything wrong with the electoral law? Can't you explain it a bit, because it happened more than once, and I cannot understand how the electoral law worked.
It was apparently due to the way the constituencies were split up, the party which won the most seats got to form the government. It is similar (though not the same) as to how Al Gore lost in the US in 2000. I have clarified that the constituencies were the reason for this in the article - Dumelow (talk) 11:12, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Karume negotiated a merger of Zanzibar with Tanganyika, forming the new nation of Tanzania; it is thought that this was an attempt to maintain stability in East Africa, where several army riots had been sparked by the uprising." Not only weasel, but I don't see that presented and analyzed in the main article. How did this merger took place? If you mention it in the lead, you regard it as significant.
I think that must have been a carry-over from an older version of the article. I have now changed it and it should only contain info that is in the main body - Dumelow (talk) 10:53, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per the toolbox, some links lack accessdate.
Doh! Now fixed - Dumelow (talk) 11:21, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A multi-party system was eventually established in 1992, but the country remains dogged by allegations of corruption and vote-rigging." I am confused: if it is now part of Tanzania, can we regard it as a "country". And, besides the Revolutionary Council and House of Representatives, is there also a President, because I see a caption saying "President Amani Abeid Karume".
Good point, I have changed this bit and put in some info about the President (the elder Karume was the first officeholder) - Dumelow (talk) 11:32, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Besides that, it looks nice.--Yannismarou (talk) 21:35, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:50, 18 April 2009 [57].

Tunnel Railway

[edit]
Nominator(s):  – iridescent 15:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another in the "long forgotten rail electrification projects of south east England" occasional series; those who remember Hellingly Hospital Railway's FAC may feel a sense of deja vu here, as this is very similar in both topic and structure. It's recently come through GAC unscathed, and I think meets the FA criteria as well. Short-ish, but it says all that could reasonably be said about the topic. Copyedited by Malleus – to the extent that he actually has more edits to it than me at present – but any mistakes or omissions are down to me.

I recognize that some of the sections are fairly short – particularly "Operations" – but can't see any obvious way around this. There doesn't seem to be any sensible place to merge the stubby paragraphs to, and any expansion would, I think, just be padding for padding's sake and detract from clarity.

The article does contain two of the dreaded Fair Use Images, but I think they're both justified; File:Ramsgate Tunnel railway air raid shelter.jpg shows the rail tunnels in their wartime role as air-raid shelters, and obviously can't be replicated, while File:Ramsgate Tunnel Railway entrance at Beach Station.jpg shows the design of the trains (unique to this line, so can't be replicated elsewhere), the layout of the station, and the design of the tunnel itself; as the whole setup was closed in 1965 it's unreplicable and in my view adds substantially to the understanding of the article. (Plus, the large "Tunnel Railway" sign settles the issue of what the line called itself – as the lead suggests, it's amazing how many different names it's referred to by in various sources.) It also contains three maps; two I've left at thumbnail size, but one I've forced the image width to 300px to ensure the readability of the captioning and visibility of detail; to me, this is a legitimate use of width forcing per WP:MOSIMAGE, but I don't have strong feelings on the matter so if anyone really objects to it, I won't argue about reducing it back to thumb size. – iridescent 15:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I should be able to turn Ramsgate Town railway station and Ramsgate Harbour railway station into bluelinks using some of my railway books. Just give me a nudge on my talk page if I haven't done anything by the weekend (I'm liable to forget!). Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 22:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If not, I can rustle up at least one-line stubs from Mitchell & Smith to turn the redlinks blue. All four of the current redlinks are undoubtedly valid links (in that they're on topics we should have articles on) so they shouldn't be an issue regarding the FAC. – iridescent 01:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

query - The non free image File:Ramsgate_Tunnel_Railway_entrance_at_Beach_Station.jpg is to show the trains which are still in existance, why can an image not be obtained of these existing trains? Fasach Nua (talk) 18:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The trains don't really "still exist" in anything more than the broadest sense of the phrase. There were sold to two preservation societies, stripped of all their engines, driver positions etc, and rebuilt for use as carriages (see here; there's footage of them in use here) – whereas on the Tunnel Railway they were red and yellow self-contained trains, the "surviving" stock at Hollycombe is now a set of bright blue railway passenger carriages that happen to have been built on the bases of the Tunnel Railway cars; a picture of them as they are now would be a great illustration for Narrow gauge railway but would be misleading and fairly useless in an article about how they appeared at this time. Additionally, File:Ramsgate_Tunnel_Railway_entrance_at_Beach_Station.jpg shows the design of the tunnel (now bricked up) and its relative width in comparison to the trains themselves (the width is important, as it's the width which gave space for the unique "around the world" displays); shows the design of the station (now demolished) with its unusual "separate platform on both side of the train" layout and extreme proximity to the tunnel mouth, both of which are hard to articulate in words (although I do try); shows the very unusual in British usage overhead single-cable trolley pole power system (now demolished) which was an almost unique feature of this line; and, while it's certainly not essential, shows the signage of the railway which definitively shows that it was called "Tunnel Railway", which is not as obvious as one may think (each source seems to refer to it by a different name). Even if one did grant that a photo of the trains could be replicated (which I don't accept), it still illustrates multiple other points covered by the article in a way which can't be reproduced as free use. – iridescent 19:24, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:50, 18 April 2009 [58].

Magic Johnson

[edit]
Nominator(s): Noble Story (talk • contributions)

Third time around for this article. Just a couple of things to consider before reviewing.

  1. I've gone through the prose (again). If you find more mistakes, you'll have to excuse me while I bash my head against a wall.
  2. A concern last FAC seemed to be that the article relied too much on his autobiography for sourcing. Well, I've now pared down those references from his book, so the only references used from his autobiography are describing his feeling or using quotes (which I think is the correct way to use that kind of source). Noble Story (talk • contributions) 07:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

image comment - Can you verify that the picture of the statue is not a derived work of a 3D copyrighted artwork per Template:Non-free 3D art Fasach Nua (talk) 09:32, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Um, I'm just wondering how I'm supposed to go about doing that?
This forum is to review if an article is of FA standard or not, if the validitity of components of an article are unverifiable then i would oppose promotion Fasach Nua (talk) 21:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You need to find out the copyright information for the statue. It was probably created recently enough to be under copyright still; therefore a photo of it is a derivative work of a copyrighted work, and therefore copyrighted as well. --Laser brain (talk) 22:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it looks like that photo is either going to have to converted to fair use or removed from the article. Kaldari (talk) 23:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(to Fasach Nua) Please don't oppose until I have a chance to address what you say. For now, I've removed the image until I place fair-use rationale, and/or find another suitable image. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 01:23, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All images appropriately licenced, oppose sticken Fasach Nua (talk) 14:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - I've reviewed this at both previous FACs and read through most of it a few weeks ago. Therefore, I'm starting my review from where I left off, and the first comment comes from the year he came back to the NBA from retirement.

That's all I found in that part of the article, but please note that I didn't read through all of it. That will come at a later time. Giants2008 (17-14) 14:29, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone through your points, but a few things:
  • I think the NBA countdown article says it's on ABC because ESPN is a subsidary on ABC. I'm pretty sure it's shown on ESPN.
  • "publicizing the risk of infection for everyone". I'm stuck on that, I can't think of a way to reword it.
  • I've removed all the rest of the "but"s at the beginning of a sentence in the article. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 07:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Oppose from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) Much improved. Too important an article to bypass. It's not bad but there is some tightening and clarifying for readers not familiar with basketball. Many of my concerns are picky, but I want this article to the best that WP has to offer on basketball, especially considering the subject. Find someone not familiar with the subject and the article to copy-edit.

Hi, Dabomb87. I understand that you are busy, and that it is the nominator's responsibility to make sure the article is written brilliantly, but I think it would be extremely helpful if you can help copyedit the article. You are an amazing copyeditor and any help from you will be greatly appreciated.—Chris! ct 23:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Blatant and overdone flattery notwithstanding, I'll see what I can do :) Dabomb87 (talk) 23:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I am just saying what I think is true. I don't mean to be flattery.—Chris! ct 23:54, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In any case, thanks for the kind words. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway. I got the rest of your comments, although I left the foundation link in, since I think it's a big part of what he does now. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 01:11, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will continue to work on the article, I struck my oppose for now. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:22, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I did some cleanup work to help this one along. One issue I'll leave to the nominator was this glaring redundancy: "However, despite Abdul-Jabber's dominance, he had failed to win a championship with the Lakers, and Johnson was expected to help the Lakers win a championship. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:23, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh. I've removed it. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 06:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How is copy-editing progessing? When it's done, please ping me so I can take another look at the article. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've already gone through the article several times, and I personally think that it's fine. But then, I thought that the last two times as well. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 10:23, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if I can commit to the promised copy-editing. I said I would try to do some, but there are a lot of things I need to attend to this week. I will try my best, but don't expect too much. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:45, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
One more thing I saw during another sweep of the article: "Although it was rumored that Johnson was gay or bisexual, he denied both charges." I'm a little uncomfortable with this because the text makes it sound like homosexuality is some kind of crime. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:37, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. I've changed it. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 03:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(indent) Lean support - Since there has been no almost no activity here for about two weeks, I'm going to follow my instincts and take a stand. The article looks better than it did the other two times it was here, and the main complaints from past FACs seem to have been addressed. After the sweep I mentioned above, I'm quite satisfied with the quality of the page overall. I'm going to leave several more comments here before striking the lean above (I swear this is it from me):

Based on my experience writing FLs, I've been told to have Basketball-Reference in the work parameter and Sports Reference LLC in the publisher parameter. Now you say you want Basketball-Reference in the publisher parameter, so which one is correct?—Chris! ct 03:44, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I always thought the works sections was only for newspapers, magazines, etc. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 07:57, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ref publishers should be in italics only if they are printed publications. The work parameter of the template forces italics, so I'm suggesting moving what's in the work parameter (Basketball-Reference) as a work-around. If you want both that and Sports Reference LLC in that parameter, that would be just fine. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:14, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I fix this, I think.—Chris! ct 03:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Got em. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 07:57, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed—Chris! ct 03:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I hope that those examples at least have been edited satisfactorily. Do you have any other pressing examples, or has the copy-editing really finally finished? Noble Story (talk • contributions) 12:59, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Could you help ? I mean, any assistance I would much appreciate. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 00:42, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
His NBA bio lists him as the measurements given in the article. But I've just changed it to include his playing height and weight (no idea why his height is different). Noble Story (talk • contributions) 00:42, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Given that you have two authoritative sources giving different figures, it's fine to choose one as this is an infobox (in running text, we'd want to spell out the disagreement). But you should probably put notes next to both height and weight in which you directly cite the source and mention the competing source and figure. —DCGeist (talk) 19:17, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I looked around, and it seems that many more sources list Johnson as 6-ft-9 than 6-ft-8; I see that 6-ft-9 is also the height that you've gone with in the running text of the article (in the Career achievements section). Finally, I found a published source that gives exactly the same height and weight figures as NBA.com. Given that, I've restored the figures you had before. I've also included footnotes giving the sources for 6-ft-9/255 lbs., while noting Basketball-Reference.com's variant figures. I've been unable to figure out how to make the footnotes appear properly within this bio infobox template (I tried running them both right next to the figures and one space removed, and the template was not happy); if some one does know the proper coding, that would be great, but it's not crucial that these notes be visible. (Thanks to Chrishomingtang for adjusting the template to allow for the proper appearance of the footnotes.) I hope you approve of the adjustment. Best, Dan.—DCGeist (talk) 19:53, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:50, 18 April 2009 [59].

Street newspaper

[edit]
Nominator(s): rʨanaɢ talk/contribs

I have been working on expanding this article for almost exactly two months (since this) and have gotten a lot of good help with cleanup from GAN (Hunter Kahn and Mattisse) and PR (Brianboulton); Apoc2400 has also been doing a lot of work creating short articles on individual street newspapers so that this isn't a stand-alone article but is part of a topic. I think by now we've built it into something interesting and good, and I would like to take it through FAC. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 16:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tech. Review

Dabs and external links (checker tools)
  • ..are found up to speed
Ref formatting (WP:REFTOOLS)
  • There are duplications of the following refs (coding copied below), a ref name should be used instead
  • Howley 2003:9.
  • Howley 2003:11.
  • Multiple refs use the following ref name, when only one ref should have the ref name
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:28, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added the information for refs 1 and 2. Removed the third one; I think I just threw it in early on so I could add another country, but in any case it's not very important, and the sentence already has two other references. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 15:32, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

--ragesoss (talk) 00:52, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Nice work. Support, assuming that you track down the detail about Hobo News and implement the other changes that you proposed but didn't yet implement. Feel free to strike my remaining comments as appropriate.--ragesoss (talk) 02:06, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • To be honest, I don't think this is necessary at all (we AGF on images all the time, look at the tens of images I have photographed and uploaded—are we going to require OTRS on all of them now to make sure I'm really the person who took the photos?)...but I have contacted Real Change anyway. And if people still think it's a problem, I can easily replace it with any of the others at commons:Category:Street papers. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 14:03, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The non-free images presently do not comply with the WP:NFCC policy. Jappalang (talk) 02:17, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree; personally, I think the images illustrate these points far better than a text description does, but you're free to think otherwise. (I'll also note that another editor here said the images are within our policy...so clearly we are all having different ways of interpreting the same policy.) Also, displaying these old covers is not hurting the papers' ability to sell copies. In any case, there is not going to be any free replacement for any of them (as far as I know, covers for other papers will be just as copyrighted as these), so if these images aren't ok then no others will be either. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 02:24, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Those are not proper rationales to overcome the concern that these images are purely decorative. The images can be easily described in words and are not significant in the context used (failing WP:NFCC #1 and 8); non-free images have to fulfill all 10 criteria listed in the policy. Jappalang (talk) 07:41, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Again: that's just something we disagree on. You think words can describe it well, I think they can't; it's personal taste. Can we wait to see what someone else has to say on it? rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 13:51, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The two covers do show the different content focus of these two papers. The Big Issue example is about music festivals, i.e. not about homelessness and poverty. --Apoc2400 (talk) 22:36, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Point is not to illustrate what can easily be said; why can the article not describe what sort of issues the two papers were covering? "Instead of covering topics such as homelessness and poverty, Big Issue spends much of its pages on music festivals and popular culture; its cover page displays professional shots, printed on glossy format." states everything in that image clearly. The same goes for the other paper: its caption (and main body text) more than adequately describes what it has to show in words, so what is the point of the picture? Hence, the two pictures are mainly just for show—"pretty pictures". Jappalang (talk) 01:30, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I also disagree. While these particular images aren't the only ones that could serve their purpose, illustrations of a) what different kinds of street newspapers look like, and b) what Big Issue in particular looks like, are important things for the article to show that can't be explained easily with text or replaced with free images. Maybe the rationales themselves could be expanded a bit to explain more fully why are needed, but I think the uses of these images are basically consistent with the non-free content policy. Regarding the Real Change image, it is our convention to assume good faith when the uploader claims to be the copyright holder.--ragesoss (talk) 04:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And I too disagree. Words cannot describe adequately layouts, mastheads, and headlines that combine to create the effect of a newspaper's front page. An article about The New York Times could not merely describe the effect of that newspaper's front page in words. —Mattisse (Talk) 11:26, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article is not commenting on the layout of the individual publications, nor their (layouts) effects on the consumers. It is discussing their contents (topics). Ragesoss, if the rationales are expanded to state why they are needed instead of "To illustrate the appearance of a street newspaper and the sorts of issues covered in it." and "Illustrate appearance and "flashiness" that has caused The Big Issue to be a source of controversy among street newspaper.", (which I have pointed out above was totally replaceable by words), I might be convinced of their fair use(again that depends on stating adequately why the covers of this two papers must be in this general article about street newspapers). Jappalang (talk) 00:26, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A picture's worth a thousand words. I would venture to guess that just about every fair use image on Wikipedia could be replaced with a text description of it...but that doesn't mean the description would be effective or concise. It's my impression that this is the very reason we have fair use guidelines: to allow the use of media when it helps explain a topic and when it doesn't infringe the copyright holder's ability to make money from it (and I believe these images meet both those broad criteria). As other editors have stated above, I believe the images are far more effective in expressing these ideas, and increasing readers' understanding of the topic, than a mere description would be; that's why I included them. Trust me, when I was writing this article I really did think long and hard about how best to express the important ideas; I haven't just been adding "decorations" haphazardly. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 01:21, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
An attempted analogy of the two images lumped as one (you can simply skip to the last paragraph if you do not wish to read an attempt to focus on the issue at hand, failure or otherwise):
"Imagine an article about the Cherry Leopard genus (yes, I am probably killing the scientific classification system, but bear with me). Most images are in the public domain, taken by federal photographers or licensed for use under CC. However, a copyrighted photo of a rare blue Cherry Leopard species is claimed as fair use. The blue creature has the exact form and features of the standard animal, except that its fur is blue. The article only speaks of the creature as rare, and claims as fair use 'illustration of a rare species'. This, however, fails fair use: the description can be readily expressed in words (form and features easily known, just visualise blue). Defenders of the image simply chime: 'we need the picture to know what it looks like, it does not hurt the photographer's right to sell the image', failing to note that the reviewer is asking for justification to use the image. Another repeated the same thing, but with addages of 'well, the rationales could do with some work' (which was part of what the reviewer was asking but constantly ignored). One more stated, 'the image shows the inspring form and sleekness of the blue Cherry Leopard, which are distinct for its species and cannot be readily expressed in words, as poets have expressed much of their frustration at'. True, but the article never commented anything about the majesticness of the creature (what was discussed was its rarity) nor did the article go into literary aspects of the creature." [Yes, one could claim that the creature is so rare that it is "fair use" as an identification image, but that purpose is weakened when the species has its own article.]
In short, neither copyrighted image in this article is specifically used in a manner that words cannot easily express. From the start of my comments, I was expecting answers to my first questions, hoping that the editors can respond, and we can find something to work on. Instead, all I have been getting is simply "I think it serves a purpose"—no replies to what I have been asking, no attempt to write up expanded rationales that show why the images are used not for illustrative purposes, and a misdirected approach (the images are used to show content, not layout). What I am seeing is an avoidance to actually answer the questions posed: what are the images, as used in the article, supposed to show that cannot be easily described in words? Sozin's Comet: The Final Battle dealt with its fair use images better than this article (albeit File:Energybending.PNG would need some form of its caption in its rationale, instead of "Illustrates part of the article's purpose"). If I am not getting any answers to this, my oppose stands as is. Jappalang (talk) 10:16, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Again: what we are disagreeing on is "used in a manner that words cannot easily express". You think words can easily express it; I and all the editors who responded above think words can't. By now everyone knows how you feel on the matter and everyone knows how I feel, and neither of us is going to change the other's mind, so I guess we might as well just drop it and wait for the closer to decide. (I will note, though, that in the article you pointed to above, I could say the same thing you've been saying about File:Lion Turtle Sage02d.jpg—why include the image when we could just say "the art was really good"? And the image doesn't illustrate anything about the character's voice.) rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 13:30, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Also, for an answer to your last question... The Big Issue one is used not just to "show content," but production value and "flashiness," as stated in the NFUR. I could use the word "flashy" a hundred times in the article but it wouldn't get the same understanding across as well (and the copyeditors wouldn't be very happy). The Spare Change one is to show an example of the appearance of a different kind of street newspaper; just because it's not "flashy" like the other one doesn't mean it looks like a regular newspaper, it clearly has much different (more tabloid-style) format than a regular newspaper. It's in the Coverage section, which aims to describe what you'll find when you buy a street newspaper and reading it; that involves not just the content of what you're going to read, but the way it is presented, and there's not really a better way to describe the full effect than with an actual image of a paper. Anyway, I have now updated the Big Image caption (diff) and the Spare Change NFUR (diff). rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 14:05, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect, the lion turtle sage was used to illustrate the art style, which is not easily described with words (what is "good"). Can you accurately describe the lines drawn and the visage of the object soley with words? That is totally different with what you are doing with the newspaper images. In effect, this shows you have misunderstood what I meant by "can be easily described with words". The Spare Change FUR is still invalid; nowhere in this article is there a commentary about the layout of this paper. As for Big Issue, avoid the general "appearance and flashiness", go with more specifics that pertain to the commentary in the article, i.e. point out why the glossiness, layout, masthead, etc (take inspiration from items pointed out above) contributed to the "production values and mainstream appeal of professionally produced" publication and that this image is to show all those concepts. Basically, explain on the image page (as rationale) that the image should not be taken away because of that. This is sort of what I am looking for. Jappalang (talk) 14:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, I don't misunderstand, I just disagree. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 15:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As for the NPD on the Real Change image. Ordinarily, the image contributions of editors are not questioned; however, I have two exceptions: professional photos or those professed to have been taken by professionals, and those proclaimed to be uploaded by companies. Their livelihood in part involves copyright, and a sense of prudence on such images is well advised; a short stint of patrols on uploaded pictures have shown a fair number of such images uploaded by those who falsely claim copyright or that the holders have given clearance. Jappalang (talk) 10:16, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed it, as it's not really important enough to fight over and I don't really care. I can maybe re-add it in the future if either a) I get an e-mail from Real Change (they haven't responded to me yet), or b) enough people here decide that OTRS isn't needed. Then again, it was kind of awkwardly jammed in anyway, I don't know if there's a comfortable place to stick it. Whatever, we'll see. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 03:31, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Update It took a while, but I got in touch with Real Change and how now obtained verification of its status and forwarded the permission to OTRS. Accordingly, I have re-added File:EdMcLain.jpg to the article. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 20:20, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

oppose - The two modern front covers are unjustified under WP:NFCC#3, has an attempt even been made to contact the publishers regarding licencing? Fasach Nua (talk) 22:24, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If enough people agree the Street Sense cover is unnecessary, I might remove it. As of now, though, I see no consensus either way—Jappalang has made some good arguments (and has helped improve the NFUR for the Big Issue image) but at the same time several other editors agreed that the image met the criteria. I would like to hear more input before deciding one way or the other. If enough people agree that the picture doesn't meet the criteria, it's a very simple matter to remove it it. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 22:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
errata That should have been WP:NFCC#8 (although it is also inviolation, #3), I was thinking of #3 in Wikipedia:Featured article criteria, for which there is a clear WP:CONSENSUS Fasach Nua (talk) 16:18, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not talking about consensus on whether or not there is consensus for FAC criterion #3, which everyone already agrees on. I'm talking about whether there is consensus that the image violates it, which people do not agree on (see above). rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 16:23, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the Big Issue cover meets NFCC #8 (the version of the article I'm looking at only has one fair use cover). "Professional" appearance can mean a lot of different things to readers, so it is a good idea to have a representative cover, in my opinion. Awadewit (talk) 01:38, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note I asked Ed for a review, see User talk:The ed17#Request for feedback.
In response to your comments....
  • I could reword that first sentence to "Street newspapers (also called street papers) are newspapers or magazines that are sold by homeless or poor individuals and produced mainly to support these populations." I guess it's a matter of whether parentheses are worse than two "or"s. I will keep thinking about other possibilities.
  • Re government funding: yes, it appears that a lot of these papers are supported by local government grants: "most of them are dependent on government and private grants and corporate sponsorship", and the Heinz and Green refs also mention it (might be visible in Google Books, but I'll have to take a look in a moment). I don't think any of them are specific about what proportion of papers are supported by local governments, or how much they are supported.
  • Good suggestion on the 3rd one, I will make that edit now. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 19:37, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You could also use "Street newspapers, also called street papers, are newspapers...." or "Street newspapers, also known as street papers, are newspapers...." —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 02:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ah...fancy that! I like the first one. Changed, and now I feel quite silly. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 02:56, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning towards support - This is a well-written and interesting article. I'm wondering if it is possible to cover more of the day-to-day operations of the newspapers or if those are too diverse to cover in such a broad article? Also, I found the list of references surprisingly short. Is there really this little published on street newspapers? Awadewit (talk) 01:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

About references... are you referring to the Bibliography, or the entire reflist? The bibliography only includes book references and academic journal articles (basically, things with page numbers). Stuff like newspaper articles, web pages, speeches, etc., are long-form footnotes. Talk:Street newspaper#More sources has a few more sources that I haven't gotten around to looking at closely or integrating into the article yet, but they all fall into the latter category and would not lengthen the "Bibliography" list (at least, not the way that list is organized now).
About day-to-day operations...I can take a look at some of the sources and see if there are more details on that sort of thing. I think you're right that it would vary a lot between the small rinky-dink ones (which I imagine don't have much "day-to-day", they probably get thrown together in short bursts by people who have other jobs most of the time) and the more professional ones that have a large paid staff and stuff like that. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 01:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I mean "references" in a general sense - I was surprised that there wasn't more published information on this topic available to use in the article. Are you at that point in the research when the sources start repeating themselves and referring back to things you have already read?
I wonder if a bit more could be added about the day-to-day operations of the newspapers that aren't professional. It is pretty easy to imagine what professionals do, but the production style and work habits of non-professionals, who have the severe limitations of homelessness, poverty, etc., might be worth adding into the article. Awadewit (talk) 19:31, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I understand. Yep, there really is not a whole lot of information out there on this topic, as it's not a major area of study—as you can guess by looking at the version of the article before I started editing it, this is not a topic that many people are thinking about. You're right that most sources are more or less repeating themselves by now; for example, when that NYT piece came out two days ago I was excited, but there's actually not a whole lot there that I hadn't already put in the article, other than a few bits and pieces about how the recent economic downturn has affected street papers.
As for day-to-day operations of the newspapers...I think there's an abundance of information on the day-to-day of the vendors (several sources I have include vendors talking about their strategies, dealing with "turf", etc.), but not so much about the writing/publishing of the papers. As far as I can tell right now, anything I could add would essentially be speculation based on a few specific examples (i.e., I have some articles that might very briefly mention the operations of Paper X, but off the top of my head I'm not aware of any that discuss it in a more general sense). rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 21:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum: this might have a little of what you're looking for (the full citation is at Talk:Street newspaper#More sources). It's written as instructions/suggestions for how to start up and run a paper (by Tim Harris, the director of Real Change, so I think that should help with reliability) but might also help give a general impression what the day-to-day business is like. I have only had a chance to skim it so far, so I'll try to look into it a little more. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 21:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That seems a little too personal to me. I suppose this is just the sort of information that is difficult to come by. I've changed to full support. Awadewit (talk) 17:58, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning towards support - Quite an interesting article.

  • About the prose: I don't mind if you tweak things. I've had a hard time copyediting the article with a view towards the whole thing, since I put it together in such a piecemeal fashion, and between different copyeditors some things have been changed back and forth depending on the copyeditor's preference. But anyway, you are welcome to do more copyediting if you're interested. I will take a look at the "another" thing you pointed out and try to think of a good rewording.
  • About "debate" vs. "challenges and criticisms": the latter section is intended to be about mainly external challenges the papers face and criticisms they receive, whereas the former is about a split between different kinds of papers. Its original section title was "Schism between street newspapers" (which I threw in for lack of a better idea), and at PR it was changed to "Debate between street newspapers" because "schism" sounds too religious; then, of course, "between street newspapers" was dropped altogether because of MoS concerns. I'm still not totally satisfied with the current way the section is titled, so I'm open to suggestions.
  • I put the main description in bullet points because I thought it was a clear way to express that these papers generally have three separate kinds of goals that, while related, are also very different. It also seemed like a good way to digest and summarize a lot of yada yada that occurs in the sources, pretty much all of which boils down to these three points. Also, in earlier revisions of this article (before GAN) the "challenges/criticisms" and "debate" sections hadn't been added yet, the Description section just had three subsections, and the three bullet points fit well with the structure of the article—each bullet point corresponded to a specific subsection. To be honest, I am still somewhat considering going back to that kind of format, and splitting the "challenges" and "debate" subsections out into a different section (I mentioned that at the top of this FAC, just below the tech review, but didn't get any input). So anyway, that was my rationale for using bullets.
  • As for your last comment...I haven't found many sources that talk about perception of how reliable street papers are, but several do discuss people's perception of the quality (ie, quality of writing, and importance of the stuff they cover); most of that is in the Ryerson Review of Journalism source and covered in the "Challenges and criticisms" section. As for reliability, I haven't seen much yet; I have noticed some isolated things here and there, like a story about a Toronto street newspaper that was apparently being used as a vehicle for mostly racist propaganda (that hasn't been incorporated into this article yet, but I think I have the citation at Talk:Toronto Street News), but nothing really that would suggest a general trend. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 18:28, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I added a sentence with more specifics about mainstream media's portrayal of homelessness in the '80s, per your request. I'm not sure how much more it would be reasonable to add; to me, this seems to get the point across pretty strongly. Let me know if there's anything else that you think is needed there. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 18:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:50, 18 April 2009 [61].

1964 Brinks Hotel bombing

[edit]
Nominator(s): YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!)

A Vietcong bombing in 1964. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 02:51, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

--Laser brain (talk) 06:24, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Right, the Monkey has done a self-copyedit. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 06:40, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've reworded it...Drove a vehicle to the entrance normally.... YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:00, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reworded. The VC and ARVN knew the US officer was gone, but the VC kept on insisting he had an appointment and then parked his car with bomb in the carpark. Then the VC told his partner to go and pick up the officer (a getaway decoy), and the driver drove away. Then he said he was going for dinner (another getaway decoy) and walked out. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:00, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Laser brain (talk) 19:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Images checked and are ok 2 images, both military public domain and both seem fine, Tom B (talk) 01:34, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. With the additional background information, all my questions have been resolved. Thank you for educating me :) Karanacs (talk) 15:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC) Comments. Overall, I thought this was a well-done article, but the reaction section is written almost entirely from the American perspective. What was the reaction, if any, in South Vietnam, and particularly in Saigon (especially considering civilians were injured)? Was the US blamed? Did people believe that the Vietcong were involved? Was there any reaction in North Vietnam (although I suspect that information might be difficult to find)? How were the bombers identified? Were they rewarded/punished for their actions? Karanacs (talk) 16:21, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Added VC radio proclamation taking credit. Added details of a VC conference resolution (meeting was secret). No official reaction in NVN as they officially claimed to not be infilitrating the south at the time (noted in article). It's very typical in Asian countries, especially authoritarian nationalist ones, Vietnam is no different that people will never admit to any mistakes, so in newspapers and political speeches, they will always say that they won every battle, no matter how badly they actually lost. As you can't win a bombing, I wouldn't be suprised if there was no announcement at all by teh government or that the press chose to remain silent. The month before a whole pile of papers were banned by the govt for publicising VC successes...None of the books noted any south Vietnamese reaction...also the day of the bombing, the SV leaders had angrily denounced the US and threatened to expel the ambassador (background added) so maybe they were too busy to pay attention to a small bombing in terms of Viet casualties (5000 public servants inc teachers, nurses etc were usually murdered per year by the VC not in battle but by kidnapping and execution + soldiers etc), the impact of the bombing was mainly to embarrass the US Army. Well the bombers were never caught otherwise they would have been put to death, and probably owned up publicly after 1975 [not stated in the source] and they wouldn't have done a Hamas style suicide type otherwise their family would get put in jail. Karnow was the only person who interviewed the agent, the others just copied him, and he didn't give any other information about it. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 04:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Other minor issue : Following World War I, the communist-dominated Vietminh - isn't that supposed to be WWII? Karanacs (talk) 16:34, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed this. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 04:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Support I think this has the potential to be a very nice article, but at the moment the prose is just not there. Examples below:

There's another guy who died a few weeks later with the same death description, both MACV and a few of the same RIP messages, so I think I identified them. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 04:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is avery interesting article and once the above are dealt with I'd be happy to lend my support. Regards--Jackyd101 (talk) 22:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed all the rest. I'm surprised that Laser brain OKed the prose and another found fault (a first) but it's good to see the stds rising I guess. I fixed the above examples for you but I wonder whether I am capable of finding any more .... YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 04:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent work. I'll do a second read through at somepoint today to see if there is anything else and decide on whether I can now support, but I think its likely that I will. The examples of prose problems were all I could find then, not a representative selection, and you seem to have taken care of them all, but I recommend another read through to check for redundancy and odd grammar. Good work.--Jackyd101 (talk) 07:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A few comments but otherwise excellent and I support.--Jackyd101 (talk) 22:16, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The bomb was detonated underneath the hotel" - a bit repetetive, how about "Two Vietcong operatives detonated a car bomb underneath the hotel".
  • "demonstrated the Vietcong's ability to strike in Vietnam" - presumably this is "South Vietnam"?
  • "Secondly, it demonstrated" - did it actually demonstatrate, or was it "intended to demonstrate"?
  • "Vietcong agents who escaped uninjured. One of them," - "who escaped uninjured" and "of them" are redundant and can be removed
Fixed. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed these, apart from teh linking thing. Link once in the lead and once in the main body, per my personal habits.
I nomrally do this. Tony1 (talk · contribs) is ok with it. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed the rest/ YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe. pruned to "correct"
Done except Karnow who is already intro'd in the first section. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed these YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
clarified YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed the rest YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 19:40, 14 April 2009 [63].

Capture of Fort Ticonderoga

[edit]
Nominator(s): Magic♪piano

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it to satisfy the requirements for FA. However, this is my first submission, so I might just be wrong. The main event took place May 10, 1775; it would nice to make FA before then. Thank you for your consideration and feedback. Magic♪piano 02:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I had actually hoped to find a good instance of a more recent Allen bio that shows a more overt bias, but haven't had any luck yet. This is one reason why I characterized the war of words as "echoing" -- there's not much left to it, as most biographies and histories are now somewhat more evenhanded, as later research has punctured Allen's self-promotion and somewhat rehabilitated Arnold's reputation.
One question of clarification: are you also objecting that the phrase "larger-than-life personalities" is not adequately addressed (by their respective behaviors)? I could deal with that more explicitly, but I'd have to bring in more biographic details than I thought were appropriate for this article. (I could also moderate the language, using something like "brash" or "bold" instead of "larger-than-life".) Magic♪piano 13:29, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not entirely sure if this is a "you need to cite that the sky is blue" situation. Growing up in upstate NY, the history of the American Revolution I was taught was along the lines of "Saratoga, Ticonderoga, and a bunch of Virginians but they owned slaves", so it's hard to assess it objectively as I'm too familiar with their personalities. I personally don't think it needs to be cited – "self-appointed military leader" by definition implies a larger-than-life personality as far as I'm concerned – but someone with less knowledge of the figures involved would probably be better placed to comment. (Note: don't read anything I've said as an oppose, just an observation). – iridescent 15:41, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Based on the respective checker tools in the toolbox, the dabs and external links of the article are found up to speed.
  • Ref formatting is not found up to speed (based on WP:REFTOOLS script)
  • The following refs (coding pasted below) are duplicated and appear more than once in the ref section, a ref name should be used instead
  • [[#Chittenden|Chittenden]], p. 109
  • [[#Randall|Randall]], p. 104
  • [[#Bellesiles|Bellesiles]], p. 117
  • [[#Randall|Randall]], p. 86
  • [[#Bellesiles|Bellesiles]], p. 116
  • The following ref names are used more than once to name different refs, when they should only be naming one ref
Well, the refs did not actually appear more than once in the refs section, as a visual inspection of the article would have made clear. In any event, I have removed the duplicated reference texts. Magic♪piano 16:30, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All of the refs have either an OCLC or ISBN. I've not routinely been adding publication locations since (some time ago) I didn't think they were displayed; I may have just done it wrong. I will take care of this in due course. Magic♪piano 13:24, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In general, the article looks great. But I think it could use a copyediting round and a few small-to-moderate changes. There are a number of times when I think a little too much information was crammed into unnecessarily complex sentences. These could be simplified and broken apart into multiple sentences with events placed in chronological order. For example, the only casualties of the operation are mentioned in this sentence: "Allen, after penning a message for the merchant to deliver to the citizens of Montreal, returned to Ticonderoga on the 21st, having left Saint-Jean just as the British forces arrived, and having lost three men in skirmishes." The fact that Arnold spent his own money to capture the fort is in this sentence: "When they arrived on June 22 and made it clear to Arnold that he was to serve under Hinman, he, after considering for two days, disbanded his command, resigned his commission, and went home, having spent more than £1,000 of his own money in the effort to capture the fort." Specific comments are below. Flying Jazz (talk) 18:53, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have a bad habit of making sentences long and complicated, something I'm trying to stop, if only I could find the period key, which sometimes seems harder than it should be. Fixed, I hope.
  • The consequences of the action are discussed in two places: in the final sentence of the first paragraph and again at the end of the first sentence of the third paragraph. Are tactical consequences separated from strategic ones? Consider placing all the important consequences at the end of the first paragraph.
  • In the third paragraph, the capture is described as a "relatively minor military action" of "significant strategic importance." On the surface, I don't think both can be true. Some clarification is needed about the term "minor" in this text or it should just be removed. The numbers of the forces involved speak for themselves.
Reply The action was minor in scale (small number of forces), but significant in effect. I'll try to find words to clarify this. Reworded
  • I'd remove the phrase "bold effort." This doesn't seem NPOV.
Reply I'm open to suggestions. (In the MILHIST-A review, the word "risky" was rejected.) The effort clearly contained elements of daring and risk.
  • Concluding the intro with the clash of personalities between Allen and Arnold and it's impact on historiography doesn't seem appropriate for the intro to a general purpose encyclopedia. I think most readers will come here for information about the capture itself, and the lead and the article itself should focus on and conclude on the main topic.
Reply Noted. See below for discussion on the relevant section.
  • The image shows Allen demanding surrender from a man and woman in nightclothes. Who are they supposed to be? The text says the fort commander emerged fully dressed. Is a better image or more accurate image available? If not, more info should be given so the reader knows who is supposedly pictured and knows it's inaccurate.
Reply Short answer, no. There are a fair number of depictions from the 19th century. I believe the New York Public Library's collection is the most extensive, but there are images in other online collections as well. Most of them are essentially inaccurate in their depiction of the event. Changed label
  • Were the three casualties deaths or wounded? Were any seriously wounded?
Reply Good question. Some of my recent reading leads me to believe they may not have been casualties at all, merely left behind and forced to make their way back overland. Clarified and corrected
  • The first two sentences jump from '75 to '58 to '63 and then back to '59. This probably doesn't have to be in perfect chronological order to get the point across, but it should jump around less.
  • The fort was "not the important fortress it once was" but was "a valuable asset." On the surface, I don't think both can be true. Some clarification is needed or the "not the important fortress" statement should be removed and maybe replaced with the statement "more like a backwoods village than a fort."
Reply I'll work on these two. Reworded
  • The sentence beginning "Frustrated, he retired to the captain's quarters..." seems to refer to Arnold, but only Allen and Delaplace were mentioned in the previous sentence.
Reply I'll work on this. Reworded
  • The statement "the plan to strip the fort and send armaments to Boston was in peril." implies that this was someone's plan in May. The Fortification_of_Dorchester_Heights article says "After George Washington took command of the army outside Boston in July 1775, the idea of bringing the cannons from Ticonderoga to the siege was raised by Colonel Henry Knox....Knox went to Ticonderoga in November..." Was this plan discussed by Arnold and the Massachusetts Committee long before Washington arrived, but the specifics of the logistics were Knox's idea? Are you making a distinction between armaments and heavy cannon?
Reply The discussion with Arnold did not include any specific logistics for delivering the armaments (and I believe Arnold realized he was out of his depth in dealing with it himself). Knox did not get involved until after Washington arrived outside Boston. Added I've added words that clarify what Arnold was doing in the interval between the capture and is departure from the scene.
  • "Arnold rechristened the schooner Liberty..." It would be good to have its original name.
Reply Unclear if she was formally named, but I will look through some of my sources. I can temporize by changing to "christened" if the name doesn't turn up. Original name added
  • The fort was "not at the time an important military post" but "its capture had several important results" and Lord Dartmouth wrote that its capture was "very unfortunate indeed." See comments above about the Background section and Intro where there seems to be an effort to present a dichotomy that either must be made more specific or be removed. Is there a strong opinion among historians that the British underestimated Ticonderoga's importance in 1775 while the colonists recognized its value? Did both sides recognize its importance in the French and Indian War but neither side thought it needed more resources to successfully defend or attack it? Did Dartmouth think it was a blunder that the fort had not been reinforced with more men after Lexington and Concord?
Reply This is something that probably deserves mention. Gage did in fact realize the importance of Ti, and sent instructions to Carleton to refortify the place (I believe after Lexington and Concord), but events overtook the message (Carleton got Gage's message on May 19). I don't know enough of the context around Darmouth's comment to know if he understood the implications. Added I've added words that I hope clarify the perceived importance.
  • "Allen also wrote several versions of the events" may imply that the versions he wrote differed from one another in substantive ways. Did they?
Reply The differed, but I don't believe the differences were significant enough to detail. I only wanted to make clear that the writings delivered to the different bodies were not copies of the same thing.
  • The selections chosen in the last paragraph seem POV to me. Even citing a published author's POV is tricky unless some balance is given. The statement: "[Allen] is an odd figure to be revered as a revolutionary hero." may apply in most of the United States, but is it odd for modern Vermonters to revere him as a revolutionary hero? Was Wilson writing for Vermonters or for other Americans? The final paragraph seems to unfairly pit Wilson, writing in 2001 with more sympathy to Arnold than to Allen, against Hall, writing in 1895 about Allen at a time when a book with sympathy toward Arnold might have been a foolish thing for a historian to write. Except for the first sentence, this final paragraph seems to detract more from the article than it adds. Especially the final couple sentences seem to just be a critique of Hall. I think some of the information could be included in a footnote, moved to the Benedict Arnold article or removed altogether. Any action that Arnold was involved in probably has a similar historiography. I'd consider shortening this section considerably and moving it to the Aftermath section as a subsection. The article should focus on the capture from beginning to end. Flying Jazz (talk) 19:19, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reply I wasn't trying to put Hall and Wilson against each other. I was merely trying to illustrate that biases, introduced by the actors, were traceable into the histories. Arnold and Allen are both difficult subjects to write about. Some reading of mine only in the last week is causing me to rethink my appraisal of Allen with respect to this section; there seem to be credible assertions that Allen's discussions with the British skirted treason. Removed I've removed the last paragraph; I don't really buy the premise by which I constructed it anymore.
Thank you for your detailed comments; they've been a big help. I'll try to address them in the next few days. Magic♪piano 23:50, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've addressed most of the factual issues; let me know otherwise. I'll have a look at the prose tomorrow. Magic♪piano 15:34, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Prose hopefully improved. Magic♪piano 15:18, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review File:GreenMtBoys.jpg - I'm a bit unclear about the permissions for this. The image description says "photo by Amber Kinkaid used with permission" - where was this permission granted? Is the uploader actually Amber Kinkaid? Awadewit (talk) 06:25, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Beats me. The original uploader appears to be a somewhat infrequent contributor; I'll leave a message on his/her/its talk page. If this attribution is not cleared up in a timely manner, I can substitute this image, which I don't like quite as much. (There are no obvious search results leading to further information.) Magic♪piano 13:57, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If I don't get an answer from the image uploader by about Thursday, I will pull the image. Magic♪piano 17:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hopefully someday you will get a response - the original image is so much better. All image issues resolved. Awadewit (talk) 23:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was wondering when someone was going to bring up 1a... I'll go through it a few more times over the next couple of days to see if I can tighten things up some more. Thanks for your feedback. Magic♪piano 17:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Great. It's definitely not bad, though you may want to get another outside editor to help perform a final proofread. I also like how the lead summarizes the article without going into exhaustive detail like other FA leads. — Deckiller 17:31, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Query Hi Magic, that was an interesting read, but re "a number of cannons and massive artillery", in that era did artillery other than cannon exist? ϢereSpielChequers 17:31, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Period artillery also included howitzers and mortars. According to Henry Knox's records of what he hauled away, all of those were found at Ti. Magic♪piano 18:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, didn't know that. ϢereSpielChequers 19:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support with proviso that I now have a very small interest following my copyedit. Comments - I've just completed a minor copyedit of this excellent article but, to be honest, I found the prose generally very clear and engaging. I do have a couple of suggestions/queries, however:

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed on the use of "capture", I'll tune. As to the horse, perhaps it should read that the horse was subsequently destroyed. Thanks for the look! Magic♪piano 15:04, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, glad I asked about the horse, since clearly I had completely the wrong idea (it has been a long day, so I'll take some responsibility for that as well)...! Anyway, having been through it I see no reason not to support this for FA - well done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:23, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 19:29, 14 April 2009 [64].

Nassau class battleship

[edit]
Nominator(s): Parsecboy (talk) 13:17, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I rewrote and greatly expanded this article over the past month or so. It recently passed MILHIST ACR, and I feel it's at or close to FA. I appreciate any and all comments towards improving the article. Thanks. Parsecboy (talk) 13:17, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I added the gun calibers and the torpedo bulkhead to the infobox; there isn't a field for double bottom percentage/watertight compartments or anything like that, is there?
Nevermind, I added the figures to the "Notes" field in the infobox. I guess that's as good a place as any.
"Stiff" is how Gröner's German Warships: 1815–1945 describes them As a non-sailor, I don't know exactly what that means.
Yes, the "they" refers to the class, not the bilge keels. I'll fix that misplaced modifier.
Well, Posen was the 4th member of the Nassau class, so... :)
Thanks for your comments! Parsecboy (talk) 11:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looks alright :)
Hmm. You could try asking FTC Gerry (talk · contribs) or BB35 Restorer (talk · contribs); I'm not sure if they would know, but it'd be your best bet. :/
Ok.
*facepalm*... Cheers Parsec! :) —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 13:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I dropped a line at FTC Gerry's talk page, maybe he can help us out with this. Parsecboy (talk) 12:36, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can you be a little more specific, please? I checked Iowa class battleship (the first ship class FA that comes to mind) and it has the basically just the same categories that this one does. Do you mean something like, say, Category:Ship classes that entered service in 1909/Category:Ship classes that were removed from service in 1920? Parsecboy (talk) 12:49, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Quite, although I was thinking in terms of individuals ships, not classes (likely, both types of categories are needed). Interesting. This indicates to me a greater failing among ship articles category system (Category:Ships) in general - they should be categorized with the naval equivalents of year of establishment/disestablishment (Category:Establishments by year). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 01:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I'll bring that up at WP:SHIPS and see how the project wants to set up that category system. Parsecboy (talk) 02:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There's a discussion at WT:SHIPS that looks like we're going to create a category tree along the lines of Category:20th century ships --> Category:1900s ships --> Category:1901 ships. Once this is implemented, they'll be added to the article. Parsecboy :  Chat  15:45, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to hear that! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 14:56, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks, I haven't yet found anything about electronic equipment/rangefinders/etc, although I'm sure they mounted at least some time of optical rangefinder. Gröner's German Warships: 1815–1945 is the best technical reference I've yet come across, but it doesn't mention anything about the issue. Neither does Conway's, but I wouldn't expect it to, really. I'll keep digging (I'm away from home, and only brought a couple of books with me) and see what I can turn up. Parsecboy (talk) 12:19, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just to follow up, I haven't been able to find anything about electronic equipment/rangefinders/etc. in any of my books, or on Google books. Short of archival documents, it doesn't look like the information exists. Parsecboy (talk) 23:35, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please audit your use of "however"; in two places it appears twice in close succession. Use it only when necessary, and where contradiction is indicated. Consider using "although", "though", or "but" instead. Kablammo (talk) 15:37, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Proofread the article for other repetitions. "All four ships" appears three times in the second paragraph of the introduction. Kablammo (talk) 15:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I cut out most of the "however"s and fixed the "all four ships" repetition in the intro. Parsecboy (talk) 22:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will add some substantive comments on design to article talk page. Kablammo (talk) 15:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've incorporated that information into the article, thanks for helping do some research! Parsecboy (talk) 23:27, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  1. I left an inline comment in the lead, regarding a snaky sentence that isn't cohesive and needs to be split.
  2. I understand why you used bolding in the infobox, but I really dislike it—looks icky, and lends weight to the 'wrong' information. I think the real problem is too much information in the infobox. I understand (believe me) the compulsion to not 'lose' any pieces of data, but if the data is not even mentioned in the text (like the range at four speeds, the complement figures as flagship, etc), then it probably doesn't belong in a summary, right? Another item I wouldn't detail there is the boats: a simple '10' would suffice in the infobox.
  3. Using ((Commonscat-inline)) inside the ((refbegin)) tag makes the Commonscat link look like a reference. Why not use the ((Commonscat)) box?
Maralia (talk) 04:53, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I fixed the line in the intro you pointed out, and cleaned up the infobox a bit. I had tried the bolding as a sort of experiment, and I wasn't really sure how I felt about it. I think it's better without. I changed the Commons link to the standard one; I'm not really sure where that came from, but I usually don't mess with those. Thanks again. Parsecboy (talk) 10:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review (Part 2) Oppose based on criteron 3 File:SMS Westfalen LOC 25466u.jpg - We have to prove that this image is in the PD - "no known restrictions" is not sufficient. What reason do you have to believe that this is in the PD? Awadewit (talk) 19:55, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why is that insufficient? It's in the George Bain collection, which is generally held to be PD, unless otherwise noted. Parsecboy (talk) 20:57, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
1) Images must prove their public domain status - that is part of the policy, particularly at Commons, where this image is hosted - "no known restrictions" is not the same as being in the public domain. 2) The description of the Bain collection says "The bulk of the collection dates from the 1900s to the mid-1920s, but scattered images can be found as early as the 1860s and as late as the 1930s." - Anything published after 1923 would still fall under copyright and we would have to establish that the owner had been dead for over 70 years or some other method if we wanted to claim that it was in the PD. Thus, we need to know the details about this image. First and foremost, when was it published? Awadewit (talk) 01:07, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So it isn't PD, per say...but...

2. The image is from a late 19th or early 20th century collection for which there is no evidence of any rights holder:

  • There are no copyright markings or other indications on the images to indicate that they were copyrighted or otherwise restricted, AND
  • The records of the U.S. Copyright Office do not indicate any copyright registration, AND
  • The acquisition paperwork for the collection does not contain any evidence of any restrictions, AND
  • Images from the collection have been used and published extensively without anyone stepping forward to claim rights.

These facts do not mean the image is in the public domain, but do indicate that no evidence has been found to show that restrictions apply.

— LOC
Commons requirements are more stringent than the LOC's - Commons requires that images prove that they are in the PD. Awadewit (talk) 03:00, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure that it would be harder to do a more in-depth look than the LOC would do. "No known restrictions" sounds like this passes the "acceptable copyright status" requirement of FA criterion #3. Also, why would Commons have a ((PD-Bain)) template if the images aren't allowed on there? I think that you might be going a bit overboard here...no offense... —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 02:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The LOC doesn't necessarily do a lot of work. Moreover, I must reiterate that "no known restrictions" means nothing when it comes to copyright. It proves nothing. Finally, templates can be created by anyone on Commons - even incorrect and irrelevant templates can be created. This one does not prove that the image is in the public domain. My demands are not unreasonable - they are necessary. I am now adding an "oppose" to this comment. I have explained what needs to be done. At this point, either more information needs to be provided to demonstrate the image's PD status or the image needs to be removed. Awadewit (talk) 02:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the image. Parsecboy (talk) 11:54, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I brought this up on Commons here; Carl Lindberg states that "No known restrictions" is LoC-speak for public domain (it just reflects the fact that copyright and other law is extremely complex and it is impossible to predict future court decisions which may unexpectedly create new rights). The Library of Congress purchased the Bain collection (and thus the copyrights) in 1948 and placed them in the public domain, so it does not matter when the photographs were made or if they were published...The LoC only is putting up the photos where they own the negative (i.e. proving that it was authored and owned by the Bain company) rather than any of their prints. The Westfalen is indeed one of the glass negatives, so it should be perfectly fine for use. Parsecboy (talk) 12:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is incorrect. If a photo is known to be in the PD, the LOC says so - "no known restrictions" is their way of getting around not knowing for sure whether or not something is in the PD. In their own definition of "no known restrictions", the LOC says "These facts do not mean the image is in the public domain, but do indicate that no evidence has been found to show that restrictions apply." (emphasis added) Moreover, the LoC cannot "place" anything into the PD. Finally, if you read the entire rights statement on the LoC, you will see that they say it is up to users to determine whether or not it is acceptable to use an image or not - "In all cases, it is the researcher's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright or other use restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in the Library's collections." The LoC defers all copyright decisions. Awadewit (talk) 14:11, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will firmly stand by my statement ;-) The LoC never says "public domain" on any image description page I have ever seen; they always use the "no known restrictions" terminology. For example here (an item published in the 1600s), here (U.S. federal government photograph), or here (images which the author explicitly placed in the public domain as part of the gift). Other than international concerns, since they are guided by U.S. law only, the Library of Congress is probably more careful about copyright than almost anyone else (probably including Commons). It is just with looooooong experience, it is impossible to tell when something will come out of left field, like a descendent or ex-partner suddenly claiming rights when it was felt the original donor had owned them completely, or a court decision which changes the landscape, or other items like that. They use "public domain" on rights pages sometimes if they are clearly published before 1923 or the donor uses that wording; otherwise I barely ever see it. While the LoC does not own the copyright most of their works, they do obtain special collections from time to time, and individual collections can have terms from a donor, or can be purchased (along with copyright) outright. Prior to 1978 (when the 1976 Copyright Act came into effect), most case law indicated that unless a contract specified otherwise, copyright was transferred if negatives were sold. (Congress completely changed that; transfers since 1978 require a signed document in writing, so it is now possible to sell a negative but not the copyright). The LoC would most certainly have mentioned that in their collection documentation, but they obviously believe they acquired the copyright, which has probably lapsed anyways (the sale probably would have meant they were "published" in 1948 if they had not been already, so renewal was required in 1975/6) at the latest. Commons has a specific commons:Template:PD-Bain tag for this collection to indicate that they may be PD for reasons other than normal U.S. rules; images from there have always met Commons requirements. In fact, it is one of the two collections (the other being federal government works) the LoC is putting on Flickr commons; they are probably as sure about their copyright status as any other in their collection. Carl Lindberg (talk) 00:21, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

<--The thing I don't understand, though, is that the Bain Collection was sold to the LoC; doesn't this mean that they therefore also sold the copyrights for the photographs they created themselves to the LoC? What I'm saying is, the Bain News Service created the photograph. They held the copyright until it was sold to the LoC. How is its use still restricted, if the LoC is not claiming any copyright? Parsecboy (talk) 15:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I can't believe the issue surrounding this image is taking up a third of the entire FAC nomination. Honestly, Awadewit, this is much ado about nothing. The LoC always uses the phrase "No known restrictions on publication", even for images which are proven to be in the public domain. For instance, photographs in the G. Eric and Edith Matson Photograph Collection are known to be in the public domain, yet the phrase "No known restrictions on publication" is still used on their description page. The same wording is used for photos of US presidents and first ladies, even though these are clearly PD due to the fact that they're works of the US government. It's just standard LoC vocabulary. You say that "the LOC doesn't necessarily do a lot of work." I don't want to make any personal attacks, but for someone who isn't even a lawyer to be so dismissive towards LoC is quite immodest. If there's anyone in the US who knows anything about copyright, it's clearly the Library of Congress, since the United States Copyright Office itself is a part of LoC. When professionals at LoC say that there are no known restrictions on publication, it means that even though they might not be 100% sure of PD status, it is extremely unlikely that anyone will ever come and sue you for using them. As for the assertion that "templates can be created by anyone on Commons - even incorrect and irrelevant templates can be created", it is true. However, you cannot say this about PD-Bain. This template has existed for over two years, it is protected (which indicates wide consensus for its continued existence) and is used by 1,758 images as of today. Not exactly what I would call an "incorrect and irrelevant template". I agree with you that "Commons requirements [may be] more stringent than the LOC". However, the "No known restrictions on publication" notice has always been widely accepted on Commons, and there are tens of thousands of images from LoC which are hosted on Commons based on this sole assertion by LoC. I don't know of a single instance where an image was deleted because the "No known restrictions on publication" notice was deemed an insufficient indication of copyright status. If you think this should be changed and that all of these images should be deleted because they fail to prove that they are PD, then you are perfectly allowed to make such a proposal on the Commons Village Pump, although I doubt it will get a single support vote. However, this FAC is clearly not the place for disputing Commons practices, and opposing this FAC solely for the inclusion of this image is disproportionate. I'm sorry for the somewhat harsh language, and this is in no way intended as a personal attack. However, I find it quite disheartening when people become so obsessive about what is really a non-issue. Best regards. --BomBom (talk) 16:52, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I stand by my oppose. I am not going to repeat myself. I have explained my reasons, which are entirely legitimate. (By the way, if you want to know why so few FA reviewers are willing to look at images, this exchange is a perfect example of the treatment that drives reviewers away.) Awadewit (talk) 17:39, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Awadewit, my sincere apologies...we aren't meaning to hassle you...It's just that, in good faith, Parsec and I disagree and believe that the image can be used. Again, apologies, —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 00:26, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For my part, I simply don't understand your objection. Bain News Service held the copyright; they sold it to the LoC. How is it still in copyright if the LoC is not claiming to hold a current copyright? Parsecboy (talk) 17:42, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
They did not sell the copyright - the sold the photos themselves as well as some negatives. This does not mean copyright was transferred. You are mixing up owning the object itself with owning the copyright or intellectual property. Think of it this way, when a library owns a book or manuscript, that does not mean they own the copyright to that book or manuscript. Copyright is independent of ownership of the object itself. Awadewit (talk) 17:47, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If they didn't sell the copyright, then they didn't sell the photographs. They merely licensed them (for example, the reason one cannot freely copy and redistribute music; it wasn't sold in the legal sense, it was licensed for personal use). Parsecboy (talk) 17:59, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have asked two Commons admins to comment here. Hopefully they will. Awadewit (talk) 18:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weak oppose I'd like to see an inline cite after each sentence that has a date or number. If that is fixed, I'll change to support. --mav (talk) 23:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, that's not necessary. Every line is sourced to the citation at the end of the paragraph. If portions of a paragraph are not sourced to the ending citation, there are the appropriate citations where they need to be. Parsecboy (talk) 00:36, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I used to do that myself but did at least mention "for the whole paragraph" in the inline cite. But then, each para ideally should be sourced from more than publication and if it isn't now, somebody else will add a sentence in these para that is from another source, which will confuse things either way. I've had to add more inline cites during FARs of many early FAs I worked on that tried to get away with one inline cite per paragraph. It is just not sufficient, IMO. --mav (talk) 01:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is, there really aren't that many English sources for this information (and my German isn't nearly good enough to look through German sources), so everything more or less has to come from the handful of sources that do exist. It just seems a little extreme to me to have 20-odd citations to "Gröner, p. 23" when 5 or so would do. Parsecboy (talk) 01:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed here. I've never had, and can't see, a problem with having one cite at the end of a paragraph if it is all from one source. —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 01:35, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 19:29, 14 April 2009 [67].

Design 1047 battlecruiser

[edit]
Nominator(s): —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 21:36, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A class of Dutch battlecruisers that were intended to be the backbone of the naval defense of the East Indies. The problem was that the Netherlands were invaded by Germany just as the design was finally finalized... —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 21:36, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Cam (Chat) 05:42, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So, how do you know they were admirals ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:16, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I used "admiral" as a general term; all flag officers are a type of admiral, I believe (i.e. rear admiral, vice admiral, etc.). I can change this if need be though. —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 21:20, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Na, you have a point—assumptions are bad! I've reworded this. —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 03:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. Cam (Chat) 05:42, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done now. :) the_ed17 :  Chat  15:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. Cam (Chat) 05:42, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't think of a satisfactory way to add any back in without going through an entire history again, so I just added a little to a sentence mentioning the battle. the_ed17 :  Chat  16:50, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Superb job on an obscure topic that would have taken significant delving and digging, I salute you! Cam (Chat) 04:44, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These are a few random examples from the top. Can you find someone to go through the whole text? Tony (talk) 08:33, 3 April 2009 (UTC) Tony (talk) 08:33, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review as follows:

Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 06:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion: check out this search on Maritiem Digital. There are some contruction shots of the old De Ruyter, but they also have Royal Netherlands Navy photos of De Ruyter C801. There are permalinks for each image and searches (as demonstrated above). Quite a slow site for me though. Jappalang (talk) 01:42, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(@during trials pic) - tagged for speedy, my apologies for how much work I am making you do...
(@ site) - DUDE. That is the gold mine I was hoping would turn up somewhere. Thanks a lot! I'll be hunting through that for images; are all of them PD becuase they have been donated to the museums? For now, I'll try to keep to the official Navy ones... —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 02:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Stick to the Navy ones. The private photos are copyrighted for 70 years past the author's death, and the corporate images 70 years after first legal publishing. Note that Maritiem displays images at the smallest size and you have to zoom in at higher levels for original sizes (too high a zoom and jagged edges appear). However, since they still display it through that small window (like certain online art galleries), you might have to do some patchwork to get the large size images. Jappalang (talk) 03:02, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. Those windows are rather annoying; I'll see what I can do with my limited image-modifying skills. Thanks again, —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 03:30, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What would the status of works by anonymous photographers be? —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 03:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For Netherlands, if the author's identity cannot be reasonably proven, the copyright of the work can be assumed to exist for 70 years past first publishing. Jappalang (talk) 04:07, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and about Maritiem's small windows? Forget about it... I just discovered that you can simply zoom in and right-click to save the zoomed image. It will be, on default, saved as a *.ashx file; just rename the file extension to *.jpg. Jappalang (talk) 04:12, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking of adding this photo by an anonymous author; would it be in the public domain? There's a date of 1925 on it, but I don't believe that is a publishing date.
Yeah, I discovered that when I zoomed in and saved the first time. :-) Thanks again for the link! —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 13:23, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the ship was commissioned in 1925, so a photo of it moored in Den Helder, the Dutch main naval base, in its first operational year (or before that) is not really unbelievable. For publishing, it is stated to be a postcard and these are generally printed almost immediately or a few years later (maybe a decade or so for anniversaries and special occasions); however, the museum has given a date and specifically stated postcard, so I think we can reasonably take it to be the publishing year of the image unless it can be proven otherwise. This postcard just manages to scrape in under the URAA 1996 date (an anonymous 1925 Dutch work falls into Dutch PD from 1 Jan 1996 onwards) to qualify for US PD as well). Hope the OTRS clears quickly, so we can close the image review. Jappalang (talk) 13:54, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(out) - alright, I added the image of Java. Would you be able to check the license I put on it? I'm pretty sure that it's right, but not 100%. Also, I swear that I am done adding images now. :-) Thank you for all of your help in sorting through these issues; to say that it has been invaluable would be an understatement. Cheers, —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 15:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:HNLMS Java 1925.jpg checks out fine. Now we are just waiting for the OTRS to clear. Jappalang (talk) 20:44, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I got an OTRS about this (OTRS:2762019), but it didn't have the image filenames on it. I can't seem to spot which image it refers to here, though; can someone point it out? Stifle (talk) 13:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
File:Hr.Ms. De Zeven Provinciën (pantserschip).jpg and File:Hr. Ms. Tromp 1936.jpg. Sorry! —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 13:41, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OTRS permission has been added. Regarding the {attribution} templates...do I have to atttribute them in the article itself? —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 01:47, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There have been talk of this in other articles, and the concensus there seem to be as long as the image page attributes the source, it is okay (see Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tree Sparrow, regarding File:Tree of sparrows.jpg). Jappalang (talk) 03:16, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 19:29, 14 April 2009 [68].

GRB 970508

[edit]
Nominator(s): Cryptic C62 · Talk 22:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've successfully brought this article through a very rigorous GA review by the very vigorous Wronkiew. It is a very short article, but I believe it is sufficiently comprehensive without going into the absurdly technical details. There are no gamma-ray bursts which have been brought to FA yet (this is even the first GA, I believe), so I don't really have a reference point. Oh well. It's good to WP:BEBOLD, eh? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 22:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Struck resolved issues. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 22:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • this was the first measurement of the distance of a gamma-ray burst. - shouldn't that be the distance to a gamma-ray burst?
  • Until this burst, astronomers were in disagreement over how far away GRBs were occurring. - tense - don't they still occur?
  • Unambiguously - wouldn't 'unequivocally' be better?
  • Dale Frail should be announced as an astronomer
I've fixed the comments you've mentioned. Any other issues? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 00:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have a read through the article. Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've expanded the circular citation, though I'm still not entirely sure what the correct format for a circular is. I've also corrected those dates from 1999 to 1997; that was my mistake. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:00, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. When in doubt, cite it like a web page... Ealdgyth - Talk 16:03, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The lead contains information that is not mentioned in the main text (A gamma-ray burst is a highly luminous flash of gamma rays, the most energetic form of electromagnetic radiation, often followed by a longer-lived "afterglow" emitting at longer wavelengths (X-ray, ultraviolet, optical, infrared, and radio).) and thus violates WP:LEAD.
    Now included in the first paragraph of Discovery.
  2. The article is not fully complaint with 1(b). In particular it should provide better context for this discovery. I want to see a short section about BeppoSAX satellite (and possible about Ulysses) and more information about GRBs in general.
    Hrm, do you suggest I just plop a pargraph into Observations? Or should I start a new section called Background or some such?
    I will be satisfied with a paragraph. One of the main goals of BeppoSAX was investigation of the nature GRBs. This discovery was not accidental, it was planned. Ruslik (talk) 06:29, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    I've added an introductory paragraph. I decided not to include Ulysses, but I did expand upon that bit later on.
  3. What was the energy of gamma-rays detected by BeppoSAX and Ulysses?
    The Ulysses detection wasn't published. It was cited in Pian's article as a private communication from Kevin Hurley. I will try to find more information about the gamma-ray detection.
    Whew! I managed to find some information on the energy according to BeppoSAX and BATSE. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 00:03, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Regarding optical afterglow. What was the spectral range, in which it was observed?
    I've added a paragraph about this. I must admit that I understood very little of what I read, so I may not have found exactly what you were looking for. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 22:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    If I could interrupt here—this added paragraph is a bit jargon-heavy. I would suggest something like
    About 5 hours after the burst, the apparent magnitude of the object—a measure of its brightness—was 20.3 ± 0.3 in the U-band (the ultraviolet region of the spectrum) and 21.2 ± 0.1 in the R-band (the red region of the spectrum). This is approximately the same apparent magnitude as the moons of Pluto.Citation needed, see Apparent magnitudeThe afterglow reached its peak luminosity in both bands approximately 2 days after the burst was detected—19.6 ± 0.3 in the U-band at 02:13 UTC on May 11, and 19.8 ± 0.2 in the R-band at 20:55 UTC on May 10. (A lower apparent magnitude corresponds to a greater brightness)Citation needed Several optical spectra were obtained at the Calar Alto Observatory at wavelength ranges of 4300-7100 Å and 3500-8000 Å, though no emission lines were identified in any of these spectra.[3]
    There is probably a better choice of object for the apparent magnitude comparison though.Dr pda (talk) 00:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    I like your paragraph, it's much more user-friendly than the crap that I churned out. However, I have two problems with making a magnitude comparison: First, comparing a specific band's magnitude with a the total magnitude of another might be misleading or confusing. Second, I haven't found any mention of a comparison in the journals. To come up with our own comparison would be WP:OR. Besides, if the reader really wants to get a better sense of this scale, s/he can just follow the link to apparent magnitude. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 00:56, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough. Dr pda (talk) 01:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Alright, changed. What do you think, Ruslik? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    I actually do not think that a simple comparison is an OR. Ruslik (talk) 07:39, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Although the Caltech team and a competing team in Amsterdam were hesitant to publish... What is "Amsterdam team"? Is this the team of Djorgovski?
    It actually refers to Jan van Paradijs, Titus Galama, and Paul Groot. Later tonight I'll try expanding the observations section to include more about what they did. If it doesn't seem to fit, we can just delete it altogether, I suppose. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 20:11, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 00:46, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Further analysis of the burst by Frail, Waxman, and Kulkarni indicated that the total energy released by the burst was approximately 5×1050 erg, They assumed that the radiation was isotropic, did not they? This should be clarified.
    I'm fairly certain that they assumed it was isotropic, but the source doesn't explicitly say one way or the other. It does mention Rhoads's paper and his previous analysis of the beaming, so I've added that. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 20:11, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Although the isotropic distribution of bursts suggested that they do not occur within or nearby the Milky Way This is wrong. Isotropic distribution is fully compatible with the Milky Way origin of GRBs, provided that they are located in the halo, not in the disk.
    Whoops, you're quite right. Don Lamb made it very clear in his debate with Paczynski that the isotropic distribution only excludes the disk. Corrected. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 20:11, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Was the host galaxy of this GRB investigated? And what results were obtained?
    Woot, I added a nice little section about the host galaxy and incorporated some information from Observations. Is this what you had in mind? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:28, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    So the red shift of the host coincides with the first redshift determined from the absorption lines? Ruslik (talk) 06:29, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I've clarified that. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 17:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

images Academia is a rich source of free images, the image can be illustrated with images of the observatory, diagrams of red shift, equipment... the graphical content to brighten up the article is here on wp, you dont even have to look for it. Fasach Nua (talk) 18:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okey doke, I've added pictures of BeppoSAX and the VLA. Do you think it needs any more? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 22:51, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The new images look great, however the two Hubble images are indistinguishable unless they are right next to each other, giving the appearance that you have included the same image twice. You could try cropping the galaxy in the second image so it displays at full resolution as a thumbnail. Not a major issue though. Wronkiew (talk) 05:07, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, the problem with cropping either image is that it might give the false impression that the host galaxy was significantly larger than the afterglow (or vice versa). The value of having both images at the same size is that it allows the reader to make an accurate comparison between the two, but I suppose that's hard to do when they're not next to each other... --Cryptic C62 · Talk 14:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fasach Nua has responded here, he will not revisit. For all purposes of discussion, this concern was addressed. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:56, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm very close to supporting but I'd like to see each sentence that mentions a number or figure have an inline cite per WP:V. --mav (talk) 16:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 20:12, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Great article. --mav (talk) 03:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:19, 11 April 2009 [69].

SY Aurora's drift

[edit]
Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk) 23:18, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mainstream polar heroes hog the limelight, but sometimes it's the behind-the-scenes people who have the best stories. Here's a seafaring tale that deserves to be known. Thanks to Finetooth for the map, Jappalang for image and other advice, and several conscientious peer reviewers. Brianboulton (talk) 23:18, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose because article has zero references in the lead. This is very bad style. TeH nOmInAtOr (talk) 01:42, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is not an actionable oppose per the featured article criteria. There is no requirement for citations in an article's lead, as it is just a summary of the article's content. Maralia (talk) 01:53, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Maralia is right. It's an editor's preference as to whether the lead should be referenced. I tend to not cite lead sections when I write articles because I focus on presenting uncontroversial facts there, and expand on those—with citation—in the article's text. Looking through my current FAs in alphabetical order, I have the following number of citations before the TOC: 4, 1, 3, 6, 3, 5, 5, 5. Most of those citations are for statistics or material that isn't repeated in the article's main body. Sceptre (talk) 17:43, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to WP:REFTOOLS, the ref name Tyler-Lewis_125–27 is used more than once to name different refs; it should only name 1 ref
I had to look up SY to see what it meant. "Steam Yacht" it seems. Might I suggest that a spelled-out version be added to the lead in the first handy place? Maybe the second instance (third sentence of the lead) would be a better place than the first instance, which would extend and dilute the bolding. A link to steam yacht would then be possible and useful. Finetooth (talk) 16:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have moved the title to "SY Aurora's drift, and linked steam yacht in the lead. I don't know how to italicise in an article's name, or if this can be done. There is no standard way of referring to this incident beyond either "X's drift" or "Drift of the X". The chapter in Shackleton's book is called "The Aurora's drift", which is I think what led me to the former title. I agree this one is better, though. Brianboulton (talk) 21:07, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Due to technical limitations, page titles can't be italicized. –Juliancolton | Talk 21:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that's fine - neat article, I found it very interesting. NancyHeise talk 11:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Gotcha. I'm fine with this. Finetooth (talk) 18:50, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:19, 11 April 2009 [70].

California State Route 78

[edit]
Nominator(s): Rschen7754 (T C) 01:01, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article meets the criteria of a FA and comprehensively covers the topic. Disclaimer: This article has failed twice because of inactivity - reviewers have not responded to addressed comments, or nobody has reviewed the article at all. Also, California State Route 78 is not the longest state route in California. Rschen7754 (T C) 01:01, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on this concern- This goes both ways. Other maps on road articles have been criticized for being impossible to read at small resolutions due to place names and the like. With that said, this is a relatively old map, and the newer maps created by the project tend to have more information. Dave (talk) 18:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see if I can contact somebody to get this fixed. --Rschen7754 (T C) 18:18, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, I agree that a few relevant features would be nice. –Juliancolton | Talk 18:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The map looks better. The intro is slightly better. I think three paragraphs is a good rule of thumb, however the article itself is rather small so perhaps I am being too picky. I will leave it at that. I gave the article a thorough reading this time around, and have listed some issues:

  1. "The section of SR 78 from the western junction of SR 79 to the western junction with SR 86 is legally eligible for the State Scenic Highway System;[8] however, only the section in Anza Borrego Desert State Park has officially been designated as being part of the system.[9]" - The phrase "legally eligible" seems a little ambigious. Could this be clarified? Is the entire route actually a designated scenic highway, but only a portion of it actually signed as such? If so, these two sentences should be modfied.
    Clarified. --Rschen7754 (T C) 00:36, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  2. "Following this, the road follows a serpentine alignment," - Kinda lost me here. Following what? Is the road following the valley, state park, or did you mean after the road leaves the state park it follows a serpentine alignment? Perhaps some minor change here could improve readability.
    Clarified. --Rschen7754 (T C) 00:43, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  3. "the junction's name refers to the shape of the interchange as CR S2 runs concurrently in a wrong-way concurrency." - Should this link to Concurrency_(road)#Wrong-way_concurrency instead?
    Fixed. --Rschen7754 (T C) 00:36, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  4. "Before the designation of SR 78, a road known as the Brawley-Westmorland-Julian-Oceanside Highway connecting Oceanside, Escondido, Ramona, Julian, Westmorland, and Brawley existed around 1900." - This sentence is quite a mouthful. Perhaps some parentheses around the cities would help with readability.
    Fixed. --Rschen7754 (T C) 00:36, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  5. "SR 78 was originally formed along with the majority of the Sign Routes in 1934" - What are the "Sign Routes"?
    Added an explanation. --Rschen7754 (T C) 01:11, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  6. "This portion of the road was specifically designed to address the challenges of building it through sand dunes.[25]" - What were some of the challenges and how did they address them? I think this is the most interesting fact in the article yet it only garners one sentence! --ErgoSum88 (talk) 03:23, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Added more information. All issues addressed. --Rschen7754 (T C) 01:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  1. "state highway in the state": The use of the word "state" twice sounds a little awkward. Is there any other word that can be used?
    This is typical for a USRD article. --Rschen7754 (T C) 20:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    1. Utah State Route 128 is an example of how I did it that passed FA muster.
      1. Done. --Rschen7754 (T C) 00:22, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Is there any more information that can be added to the lead?
    I added a bit to the lead, let me know if this helps. --Rschen7754 (T C) 22:30, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  3. "State Route 78 begins in Oceanside as a continuation of Vista Way. As it encounters a traffic signal and crosses over I-5, the route becomes a suburban freeway traveling east through Oceanside." Doesn't it begin at I-5? It sounds a little unclear in these two sentences.
    Route begins as a continuation of Vista Way, at the intersection with the ramps to I-5. --Rschen7754 (T C) 20:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Avoid overusing "then" in route description
    Fixed. --Rschen7754 (T C) 22:48, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  5. What is a "serpentine alignment"?
    Serpentine definition: of or like a serpent or snake : serpentine coils. • winding and twisting like a snake : serpentine country lanes. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Clarify what a "primitive road" is.
    Removed; I don't remember what I meant when I wrote that. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  7. "A Swedish company has commenced the construction of this bypass" souds awkward. Also, when specifically did construction on the Brawley bypass begin?
    Corrected. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Are the missing postmiles in hte Major intersections table known?
    No, they are not available. --Rschen7754 (T C) 20:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Reference 2 appears to be a personal website. However, the reference uses information from the CALIFORNIA HIGHWAYS AND PUBLIC WORKS. Is there an alternate source that shows this information?
    This appears to be a verbatim copy of a document from them; apparently this is okay per above. --Rschen7754 (T C) 20:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  10. For the map references, is there additional information that needs to be included such as the scale of the map and the cartographer? In the case of many of the gas station maps, there is usually a cartographer who makes the map for the gas station.
    Typically the scale isn't necessary. I don't know if the cartographer is specifically necessary, but I will go to the library tomorrow and pull that up. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    I added the scale and cartography for all the maps I could find. I couldn't find some of them; maybe somebody checked them out or they got misfiled. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:33, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  11. The link in reference 25 comes up as "403 Forbidden"
    A fee is required to view the article. --Rschen7754 (T C) 20:30, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Reference 38 links to a page telling how the articles from the IHT are being moved
    I can't find the new article; we may have to wait until the articles finish being moved to fix it. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Reference 41 and 43 are the same, they can probably be merged into one reference
    Oops. Fixed. --Rschen7754 (T C) 22:30, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  14. The article needs more pictures. If possible, try to obtain some pictures of the route. You can also try looking on Flickr for pictures with suitable copyrights. For the history section, you can use a cropped image from this 1947 USGS Map, a PD image, to show the pre-freeway routing of CA 78 Dough4872 (talk) 16:35, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think I can get more route pictures soon. I'll look into getting the history map though. --Rschen7754 (T C) 20:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Added the history map. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    All comments addressed or replied to. --Rschen7754 (T C) 00:22, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Support - All of my major concerns have been addressed. However, it would be nice for more images to eventually be added to the article. Dough4872 (talk) 20:59, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The eastern terminus at I-10 stated in the infobox is incorrect. SR 78 does not end in Blythe; it should say that SR 78 ends near Blythe.
    Fixed. --Rschen7754 (T C) 00:22, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Where does reference #1 (bridge log) state total mileage? The source only gives county-based postmiles. Due to realignments at some junctions, you can't just simply add all the county postmiles up in order to get the total mileage.
    But the equations correct for this. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:19, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    What equations? -- M*gill*FR (blab to me) 21:02, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    None are necessary for SR 78, if there aren't any in the bridge log. --Rschen7754 (T C) 00:21, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    So are you just saying that a reader has to add up all the county postmile equations together to come up with the total mileage? I wouldn't think they'd do that There should be a reliable source that directly states the total mileage. -- M*gill*FR (blab to me) 00:23, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Addition is perfectly fine to get mileages. --Rschen7754 (T C) 00:27, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Like I said, realignments may affect accurate addition. I'm more inclined to support using the trucklist rather than the brdige log. -- M*gill*FR (blab to me) 00:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    So you want to use a possibly imprecise (3 decimal place) number that doesn't include the SR 86 segment? And don't use the argument that you can add a two-decimal number to a three-decimal number and not lose any precision. (A three decimal number is not available). --Rschen7754 (T C) 00:34, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    The mileage that was in the article may already be possibly imprecise, because you just added them up despite realignments and temporary connections at some junctions. Show me how you arrived at the length of 215.39 mi using the bridge log. -- M*gill*FR (blab to me) 00:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Furthermore, if you used the trucklist mileage, while it may not include the SR 86 overlap, you can just make a little note below the mileage and say (includes XX mileage from SR 86). This should not affect the amount of precision taken from the trucklist and bridge log. -- M*gill*FR (blab to me) 00:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    You just add the mileages in San Diego, Imperial, and Riverside counties plus the overlap mileage. In this case, no correction for realignments is necessary. (If there was, there would be a listed equation such as "R0.00 is 1.49". There isn't for SR 78 - http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/structur/strmaint/brlog/logpdf/logd11.pdf). There are not multiple possible answers for the addition of four numbers, and this isn't first year calculus. New York State Route 28 does the same and is a FA. --Rschen7754 (T C) 04:33, 6 April 2009 (UTC)\[reply]
    And NY SR 28 also made a little note adding the I-595 overlap mileage below. Did the total mileage of SR 28 included the mileage with the I-595 overlap? If not, can't we do this same type of format for SR 78 (this is what I'm suggesting all along)? (And obviously, this isn't first year calculus; we aren't dealing with derivativs or integrals.) -- M*gill*FR (blab to me) 16:02, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  1. (reset) You miss the point: the average adult can be given the same numbers and get the same result. The question is, why do we need to use your format for the article? You are suggesting a solution to a problem that does not exist. --Rschen7754 (T C) 19:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    This was originally NE2 (talk · contribs)'s format of the article; look at California State Route 139's mileage formatting as an example. We want to give as much precision as possible. -- M*gill*FR (blab to me) 20:13, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    But that precision cannot be achieved if you cannot get the total length of the route to three decimal places. Readers don't care about the length of SR 78 if it doesn't include the SR 86 overlap. --Rschen7754 (T C) 21:31, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Which is why there is a separate note that says {plus XX mi on SR XX). As precision to three decimanl places cannot be maintained, that's what the little note is for. That's where readers can directly add up the mileage values (hence the "plus" in the note). -- M*gill*FR (blab to me) 23:35, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    You still haven't addressed my argument. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:39, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    My question is: would you rather have readers figure out the source themselves (adding mileages), or would you at least let readers verify based on the information that is visible to them? -- M*gill*FR (blab to me) 02:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    That's a red herring: regardless of what we do, they can verify the source with the citation. --Rschen7754 (T C) 04:59, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  2. This article lacks amount of good-quality images.
    Yeah... --Rschen7754 (T C) 04:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    And I take it that FAC is not that concerned about this at all? -- M*gill*FR (blab to me) 16:02, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    I can't speak for everyone, but it doesn't concern me. All the FA criteria says is "It has images that follow the image use policies and other media where appropriate […]" – there's no minimum number of images or a requirement for images-for-images-sake when they're not necessary. – iridescent 16:04, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
-- M*gill*FR (blab to me) 00:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: images are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 22:42, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is this for ((cite news)) or ((cite web))? --Rschen7754 (T C) 19:47, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't recall; pls just scan that URLs have accessdates. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:52, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. --Rschen7754 (T C) 20:06, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:19, 11 April 2009 [74].

To the People of Texas & All Americans in the World

[edit]
Nominator(s): Karanacs (talk) 19:17, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the most famous document in Texas history - given just the title, most native Texans can tell you when the letter was written, who wrote it, and give you the general gist of what it said. This is the first time I've attempted an article about a written work, and it is a little unusual because the letter is so very short, and its impact on history is greater than its impact on literature. Much thanks to Moni3 for a very helpful review; hopefully with her help I've adequately explained all the background information. Karanacs (talk) 19:17, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • The following refs (code pasted below) are duplicated and appear in the ref section more than once, a ref name should be used instead.
  • Green (1988), p. 484.
  • Hardin (1994), p. 121.
  • Todish et al (1998), p. 40.
  • Green (1988), p. 492.
  • Green (1988), p. 498.
  • The following ref names are given to more than 1 ref when they should only name 1 ref.
I've double-checked the references section, and all references are appearing once and only once in that section. You may want to modify your script - both of these sets of "issues" are caused when a named ref has all details spelled out in an identical way more than once. As the output is correct, there is no error or issue here. Karanacs (talk) 16:55, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't my script, but so whats the purpose of the ref name if you aren't going to use it properly such as <ref name="name of ref"/>--Best, ₮RUCӨ 22:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on criterion 3 File:David g burnet.jpg - This image has no source, date, or author for the original image. There is no way to verify its PD status. (I'm looking forward to reading the article later!) Awadewit (talk) 00:39, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that, Awadewit. I know the image is public domain, I just can't quite track down the documentation at the moment. I've replaced it in the article with File:David g burnett3.JPG, first published in the US in 1875. Karanacs (talk) 16:55, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All images have adequate descriptions and verifiable licenses. Awadewit (talk) 18:19, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I feel that that the text, or at least a quote of the document should be in or very close to the introduction.
  • "Shortly after, Travis wrote an open letter pleading for reinforcements." This sentence does not make it clear to me that this is the actual document that the article is about. clarify.
  • page could be clearer about how the letter influenced David G. Burnet becoming president. Was there no one else who wanted to be president. Was everyone scared. or were there many people who wanted to be president, who were lousy, and because the document encouraged Burnet to stay, Texas had a great president. . . .
  • Not a deal breaker, but it would be nice to have a sentence or two on why the letter has is called this name as opposed to say "Travis's Alamo Statement".
  • I'd like to see an explicit statement of the why the letter is important in the introduction. After reading the article 2-3 times, I think you are saying that while the letter did not get reinforcements to the alamo to save the defenders, it roused enough would be reinforcements to form the core of Houston's army with in turn won the war. Is that correct?
  • $85. Not a deal breaker, but is there anyway of finding an inflation adjusted number?
  • The sections, preservation and reception should be flipped.
  • Changed my mind on this. I feel there is a difference between the reception at the time of the war, and afterwords. Why not merge the second paragraph into of the reception section into earlier sections of the article. Then rename the section academic reception, or post revolution reception. . . . . 05:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Background should have less about how the revolution started, and give more context about the revolution. An elaborated version of this sentence that I found in the reception section would be nice. "At the time Travis wrote the letter, Texas settlers were divided on whether they were fighting for independence or a return to a federalist government in Mexico. The confusion caused many settlers to remain at home rather than join the army."
  • Why is the quoted text in the distribution section not in Italics while the quoted text in the development section is.
  • Why does the See also section have "list of alamo defenders", but nothing else.
  • Not related to this FA page, why is there a battle of the alamo template at the bottom of the page, but not a texas revolution one?
Keep up the good work. Gig em! Oldag07 (talk) 05:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review!! You've brought up some really insightful points. I've made the following changes:
  • Wikilinks to the library (thanks for finding that)
  • Removed the italics from the letter. That got snuck in since I nominated the article and I didn't notice it.
  • Added an inflation calculator
  • Added the quote "Victory or Death" into the lead. I also rearranged the lead a little so that the quote asserting its importance in Texas history is right at the front. I don't think I can get more explicit about the letter's importance. Travis wrote lots of letters (although this is the only one well-remembered), so this particular one can't take sole credit for encouraging people to volunteer. I had to make the description a little wishy-washy so that I wasn't going too far beyond the sources.
  • I rewrote one sentence to Shortly after, Travis wrote an open letter pleading for reinforcements from "the people of Texas & All Americans in the World". Hopefully that makes it more clear that we are talking about the subject of the article, and that the letter got its name from the salutation.
  • The background section has been expanded a bit, with pieces from the reception section added, as well as a little more.
  • I've rewritten the second paragraph of the reception second (and added a bit to the 3rd).
  • I added another two sentences about Burnet's election.
I'm not intending to make the following changes (or I'm answering your questions):
  • Quote templates rather than the whole document. The letter itself is very short, and I think that it should be included in its entirety. Otherwise, I think it will be harder for people unfamiliar with the letter to understand some of the criticism (good and bad). I chose not to include the postscripts in full (just small quotes in the text), because they aren't usually mentioned in the sources much.
  • I included the Alamo template because the letter is listed in that template as part of the battle. The Texas Revolution template lists only battles, and not the letter, so I didn't include that one.
  • It isn't that I am so much against an alamo template, as i am for a texas revolution template that has more than just battles. Sections could be, key people, major battles, major documents, declaration of independence, republic of texas. . . ? That however is not a problem with this page, but rather a suggestion for all the Texas Revolution pages. Oldag07 (talk) 20:33, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I included the list of Alamo defenders in the See Also because the article specifically mentions that almost all of the defenders were killed (and that more defenders arrived in response to Travis's letters). I couldn't think of anything else extremely pertinent to put in the section, but I'm open to suggestions.
  • I'm not sure what to say about what the letter is called. It's given this name because that is how Travis addressed the letter; none of the sources explicitly state that, but I thought it was obvious. Any ideas on how to make this more clear?
Again, thank you very much. Karanacs (talk) 16:23, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Much improved. The only other thing I would do is for the inflation numbers, instead of using the term "today's dollars", I would use "20XX dollars", to be more specific. Changed my stance from neutral to support. Gig em!Oldag07 (talk) 20:28, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning towards support Ooh - a historical document! How cool! This article was quite fascinating to read. In general, it is a clear explanation of the background leading up to the document's production and the document itself. I just have a few suggestions:

Thanks for writing this - it is both informative and enjoyable! Awadewit (talk) 19:39, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Awadewit, I was hoping you'd have the time and interest to review this one. I've made the following changes:
  • Texians aligned themselves with proponents of federalism advocating a stronger role for state governments, in opposition to a centralized government that set most policies at the national level
  • I could not find any articles discussing the price the broadsheet actually brought.
  • I had to spend several days mulling the reception section in my head, and it's now almost completely rewritten. I think the new version is drastically better than the old one. Thank you for prodding me in that direction, and please let me know if you have other ideas for improving it. As part of this, I added an additional sentence about the melodramatic phrasing, but, while it is as clear to me as it is to you, I can't find a detailed analysis of which parts caused critics to label the letter that way. For the most part, they just dismiss it as melodramatic without any detail.
  • I've also removed the Bush anecdote. That has always bothered me too, and I only included it as a link to how the letter may be popularly seen today.
Karanacs (talk) 15:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changing to full support. The rewrite of the "Reception" section is particularly good. Thanks for taking the time to do that! Awadewit (talk) 17:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I definitely appreciate the review, Nancy. If you are interested, I may run a few of my pending articles by you in the future so you'll have a chance to bombard me with issues to fix, too - that will give Moni a little break! Karanacs (talk) 15:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think I owe you about a year and a half's worth of reviewing so I would be very happy to help out. I thank you for all your help in the past which was not always well received or appreciated but is now. NancyHeise talk 01:03, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:19, 11 April 2009 [75].

Stamata Revithi

[edit]
Nominator(s): Yannismarou (talk) 22:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some decades ago Revithi was almost unknown. During the resurgence of feminism and the revitalization of women's role in modern society, she was treated as a symbol. A poor woman from Syros, who never imagined that she would become the main topic of a Wikipedia's article some 100+ years later! With very few existing sources, it was a temptation for me to create a nice and attractive article for "Melpomene" (if she is indeed the runner "Melpomene"!). The article went through a peer-review, where I tried to properly handle all the raised concerns. Additionally, User:H1nkles provided me with some excellent feedback in the article's talk page. I'm grateful for this review as well as for checking the prose. Many thanks to User:Ceoil (as usually!) and User:Karanacs, who also checked the prose. Personally, I did the best I could, taking always into consideration the scarcity of relevant sources. I thought it was the right time for this nomination.Yannismarou (talk) 22:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - Looks like a very nice article, and I want to support eventually. Before I do so, however, I want you to look at these items:

Giants, all done, except verifying the pd; though the picture is 112 3/4 years old. Ceoil (talk) 00:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are you sure about the 3/4 stuff? Did you go through a date counter or something like that (we should have one in the project, since we have already promoted and developed to near perfection the edit counters!)?!--Yannismarou (talk) 00:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I know people and machines you can only imagine. Ceoil (talk) 00:39, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is what I mean. We have the source of the picture (the 1896 report). Taking into consideration the fact of how old this picture is (113 years), it seems improbable to me to have any copyright issue here. But I can remove it or try to replace it, if it is deemed necessary. By the way, thanks again Ceoil.--Yannismarou (talk) 00:17, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Was the report actually released in 1896? If so, it's just fine. Sorry about that. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:35, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Phew! Ceoil (talk) 08:04, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Γιούπι! I found it! It is page 77 of the second part of the Review.--Yannismarou (talk) 19:55, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I also found the name of the photographer in the book. I would feel better if this image were hosted on Wikipedia, since we cannot establish the death date for this person and thus that he has been dead for 70 years (on Commons, the image has to be PD in the US and in its country of origin). Would you mind moving it over to Wikipedia or trying to find a death date? Awadewit (talk) 00:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind all. By the way, since you are one of the best Wikipedia's reviewers (Do you remember the good old days we were both reviewing in WP:BIOGRAPHY?!), could we also have your input and reviews on the article in general! Thank you, by the way, for your copy-editing!--Yannismarou (talk) 12:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I do remember those good old days - so much less wikistress than my life these days! Awadewit (talk) 01:09, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - My one real gripe with this article is that there is minimal information on her life outside this one event. We don't even have a death date, not to mention the lack of a solid birthdate. However, I'm convinced that the nominator has done everything possible to find this information, which unfortunately doesn't seem to exist. I've come out against short articles in the past, but I think this one just scrapes past the requirements. Everything else looks good, and I even did a little copy-editing (there wasn't much to do after Awadewit finished her run-through, but every little bit helps). Giants2008 (17-14) 00:36, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you also Giants for the copy-edits. Having you, Awadewit, Ceoil, Karanacs (some of the top copyeditors Wikipedia ever had!) going through the article's prose is really a great chance.--Yannismarou (talk) 12:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • As far as the minimal information thing you mention, let me just say that you are, of course, correct. Nevertheless, I may be the worse copy-editor and prose writer in the world (and I really am! This is no joke at all!), but, if there is one thing I am really scrupulous, this is source-digging. As I state in my nomination declaration, whatever information could be found about Revithi, it is here!--Yannismarou (talk) 13:00, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support as a peer reviewer. Two small questions:

Karanacs (talk) 17:02, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Information here about the last runner not very helpful. The first one, Loues, run the race in about 3 hours. Comparing, Revithi's timing does not look that good! Of course, many male athletes withdrew, while she almost finished (she was stopped before entering the Stadium) her unofficial race. Do you think that I should add somewhere Loues' time?--Yannismarou (talk) 07:45, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support This is an interesting article about an obscure person - I was fascinated to learn that there was no women's marathon until the 1980s. Wow! Two questions:

  • As a matter of fact, I now saw that I already have that in note 4! Like Karanacs, you miss my notes! Seriously, now, I'll transfer the info in the main text for clarification.--Yannismarou (talk) 01:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let me know when this article passes and I'll add it to Portal:Feminism. Awadewit (talk) 01:09, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:19, 11 April 2009 [76].

Arular

[edit]
Nominator(s): ChrisTheDude (talk)

I initially nominated this article for FA a few weeks ago, but apart from Ealdgyth's customary review of sources (all OK) and Truco's regular review of ref formatting (all OK), it attracted no comments whatsoever. I've therefore given it 10 days or so and am renominating, hopefully it will grab people this time :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments for now from GrahamColm (talk · contribs) On the whole, I am impressed with the quality of the prose, the pace of the article and its comprehensiveness. I have made few edits to remove a little redundancy and I have some more comments:

I will keep this page on my watchlist and give my support/oppose later. I would like to see more comments from other editors. Graham. Graham Colm Talk 11:33, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Adding support Graham Colm Talk 09:17, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dabs are up to speed (based on the checker tool in the toolbox)
  • External links are not up to speed (based on the checker tool in the toolbox)
  • There are 5 dead links that need to be fixed/replaced.

Support Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) It's pretty good, but there are problems with redundancy that Graham noted above.

All sorted I think -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All good except for the two that I replied to. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done those now as well -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Media review: the two concert photos seem fine—appropriately licensed; I fixed the album cover—rationale and size should be fine now; that leaves one concern, the sound clip...

Oppose. EDIT: Struck Steve T • C Some prose and potential sourcing issues. It seems like a large list, but could be resolvable in the timeframe available, so I'll watch this page for your responses:

Lead
Composition and recording
Music and lyrics
Artwork
Release
Promotion and accolades
Critical reception
General—throughout

This is what I caught on a first pass. I'm also slightly concerned that two of the three sources I checked for clarification didn't support the statements as written. Though I do understand that it's easily done—disconnecting a cite from a statement—when chopping and changing and copyediting in preparation for FAC. Look out for others. All the best, Steve T • C 19:49, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Blimey, you're right, that is quite a list :-) I'll crack on with it today though, check back in about 12 hours time to see how I've got on..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:45, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All points now addressed, as far as I can see, apart from double-checking that all the sources are in the right place and correctly support the statements -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:05, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've now been through and checked every reference and am confident that all are in the right place and support the statements against which they are placed -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:05, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Impressed by the speed at which you tackled these. I'm striking the oppose, and will consider a support after a third and fourth read through tonight. Nice work, Steve T • C 15:42, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:19, 11 April 2009 [77].

M249 squad automatic weapon

[edit]
Nominator(s): Pattont/c

I withdrew the last FAC for this article because I was afraid the concerns were too many to address during the FAC. Anyway, I feel I have addressed all of them and am nominating it for featured status again. It's come a long way; I have created a "operational history" section and incorporated the reception into it. Thanks in advance to all reviewers.--Pattont/c 13:15, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Nom restarted. Old nom. Raul654 (talk) 05:04, 11 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]
Images reviewed, outstanding questions on sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:25, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've satisfied the sources concerns now.--Pattont/c 18:13, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The oppose over referencing

Comments by Peripitus (talk · contribs), note that I've only read thoroughly to the end of the Development section. Not finished reading through yet - will finish in a day or so. Images look all good and have appropriate (free) licences, Referencing looks good (though I'm not keen on the use of titles in the notes sections...just for the sake of neatness) *Acronyms (and jargon) need to be consistent, explained at first use and minimised. I think that all acronym use needs to be checked for these issues, eg:

*Some text issues involving convoluted wording and redundant words. (Don't count this as gospel - brilliant prose is not my forte)

- Peripitus (Talk) 11:39, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we need to mention that the belts are disintegrating, as all metal ones are, the only ones that don't disintegrate are the old fabric ones. The article already mentions in numberous places that the M249 can use M16 mgazines. As for production figures, I haven't found any at all in books or on the internet.--Pattont/c 14:59, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, there are non-disintegrating metal belts in current service. They are in common use in Russian designs like the RPD and PK. --D.E. Watters (talk) 15:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Everything in section 1 and 3 corrected; Patton, you're welcome :P. I'll leave the middle bit to you as I don't know the technical stuff. Ironholds (talk) 13:21, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a mllion Ironholds! Peripitus, thanks for your review! I've corrected the point from section 2. Dunno what the XM249E1 was, someone else added that sometime during this FAC, wasn't there at the start. Have clarified the M14 bit. The M14 wasn't actually schedueled to replace it as a SAW/LMG, it just had an automatic mode so the Army didn't think a new SAW/LMG was needed. "Standardisation" was also slipped in there somehow, wasn't there at the start of the FAC. I look forward to your review of the rest of the article.--Pattont/c 21:56, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
1) The XM249E1 was specifically mentioned in the FY 1981 Department of the Army Historical Summary. "The Fabrique National (FN) XM249 weapon was modified to incorporate the changes recommended during the selection process. Testing of the improved weapon (XM249E1) and ammunition (XM855 and XM856) began in June 1981 at Aberdeen Proving Ground."
2) Actually, the heavy barrel version of the M14 (the M15) was intended to replace the M1918 BAR. However, the M15 was never put into production as they figured a M14 equipped with a bipod could perform the job just as well. The M14/M15 were advertised as replacing the M3 submachinegun, M2 carbine, M1 rifle, and M1918 BAR.
3) Standardizing means that the item has been "type classified" as a "Standard" item. In other words, it has been determined to be either acceptable for introduction into the U.S. Army inventory or can made acceptable without any further developmental effort prior to fielding. In contrast, an item can be adopted but technically remain type classified as a "Limited Procurement" item. It is probably too technical for use in this article. However, a discussion of "type classification" might be a worthwhile article on its own. --D.E. Watters (talk) 15:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tech. Review

Dabs (checker tool)
  • There are some self-redirects, I don't know if they are intentional or not, if they aren't they need to be removed.
External links (checker tool)
  • ..are found up to speed
Ref formatting (WP:REFTOOLS)
Thanks for your review! The M249 squad automatic weapon self redirect is actually a link from the infobox to the variants section. The Mk 46 Mod 0 self redirect is in the navigation template at the bottom of the page, not in the article itself.--Pattont/c 12:02, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh okay, that's what I wanted to know. Cheers.--₮RUCӨ 20:39, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: no issues. Jappalang (talk) 22:47, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References—Since Sandy requested a check, what makes the following sites/sources reliable?

--Der Wohltempierte Fuchs (talk) 01:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll reiterate. If Jane's isn't reliable on weapons/ships/planes, nothing will be. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:08, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. It would be like questioning whether or not The Times is a reliable source for news. Ironholds (talk) 20:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And ArmyStudyGuide.com? --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs (talk) 20:37, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That I'm not sure about; it appears to be an unofficial guide to passing Army tests. Patton, can you tell us which bits you used it in? Maybe we could find references for them from a more reliable source. Ironholds (talk) 20:56, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty certain that he only used it to establish the "basic load" of ammunition carried by a M249 gunner. --D.E. Watters (talk) 21:18, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If it's not important, then the refs to the study guide can be removed. If its important, there should be other sources to back it up. Either way I'm not seeing the reliability of this unofficial army publication. --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs (talk) 21:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments, some from before restart (but updated in any case):

This is still listed as a Reference, but not cited. Maralia (talk) 17:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I note that you added italics, but we can't evaluate the source without knowing the publisher. Maralia (talk) 17:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's a magazine called the lore of the corps. AfAIK it's not printed by the USMC but is independent.--Pattont/c 19:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You've used "Lastname – Title, p x" for short-form cites. I can't say that I like it, but to each his own. They weren't consistent, though—some of the endashes were hyphens—so I've standardized to endash for those throughout the Notes.
Almost there. Maralia (talk) 16:30, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've cleanup up what I could. What's wrong the PEO soldier lessons learned cite? I don't see why it needsto be in quotes rather than italics when that's the name of the report. Thanks a million for you review anyway, you've done loads :-).--Pattont/c 17:01, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated my comments above. Per WP:MOSITALICS, italics are used for long works; the titles of short works (such as papers) are presented in quote marks. I've made the change on the Kelly and Smith References and cites. A couple issues remain above. Maralia (talk) 17:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe this comment is addressed.--Pattont/c 16:48, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Following up on my last bullet point above, I tried to find information about a magazine named The Lore of the Corps in order to evaluate whether it would meet WP:RS. I was not able to find any magazine by that name. From this, it appears the piece was in fact printed in the Army Times. Please fix, and be extra careful next time to take full notes on each source; we have to provide enough information for readers to look them up. That was my last remaining issue from the list above, but I'm not quite prepared to support as it's been several weeks since I read through the full article; will give it another read after I make it through my watchlist. Maralia (talk) 22:01, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article fails the copyedit test. For example:

  • "Neither design was finalized by March 1972, when the Army published the specifications document for the planned SAW.[14]" is repeated. This should not be picked up at FAC stage and throws out serious question marks about the rest of the editing.
  • Short, choppy sentences need to be fixed, eg. "The HK XM262 reportedly came a close second.[21] In September, FN was awarded a "maturity phase" contract for further development of the XM249.[22] Testing of the new XM249 began in June 1981.[23] The official adoption took place on February 1, 1982."
  • Sentences that are too long need to be fixed, eg. "Because army doctrine required troops to use a rifle's semi-automatic mode on most occasions to increase accuracy and conserve ammunition, the M14 and M16 rifles used by the U.S. Army had not been designed with sustained automatic fire in mind, and overheated or jammed regularly." Also, avoid starting sentences with "Because..."; "Due to..." is preferred.
  • Under-linked. For example in the first paragraph alone: automatic (as in fire), firepower, machinegun, squad, volume of fire & rifle. Paragraph two: jammed, bipod, tripod & magazine. Also "Picatinny rails were added to the feed cover and forearm for the mounting of optics, lasers, vertical foregrips". Now you have even lost me - Picatinny rail? Look for terms that may be unknown to a ten year old and link them: we are here to educate.
  • Innapropriate language: "Soldiers are generally satisfied with the weapon's performance, though there have been many reports of clogging with dirt and sand." Rather choose some of the (excellent) information from the Operational history.
  • "U.S. Army soldier holds an M249 SPW in Iraq." I see that this is the special purpose, but that is not clear in the text.
  • Lastly, "The U.S. Army does, however, want to replace aging M249s with new SAWs." should be "...newer SAW models"
I marked this as "Comment, tending to oppose" because if I remember correctly a single oppose may stall the entire FAC process indefinitely and while these concerns are serious, I don't intend to block the FAC. It is unlikely that I will be able to check editing in the near future. The content is very good, and I strongly support the effort to improve all our weapon system articles. Dhatfield (talk) 18:34, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ironholds. Have fixed 6, though I don't quite understand point 5.--Pattont/c 20:20, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The intention was that you generalise the above comments to re-look at the whole article. Examples of remaining problems:
  • "Studies of improved 5.56 mm ammunition, with better performance characteristics, began.[11] The earliest reference to studies of other caliber cartridges for the LMG did not appear until 1969.[12] In July 1970, the U.S. Army finally approved development of an LMG, with no specified calibre. At this time, the nomenclature "Squad Automatic Weapon" (SAW) was introduced.[8] Actual design of alternative cartridges for the LMG did not begin until July 1971." Five sentences where two or three would flow much better."
  • You have a "rior" in para 3, Development.
  • Design details is still massively underlinked.
  • With respect to point 5, in the introduction I would prefer "Lieutenant Colonel Jim Smith of the U.S. Army spoke positively of the M249, claiming that it "provided the requisite firepower at the squad level as intended", but a report entitle Lessons Learned in Afghanistan found that 54% of SAW gunners had problems maintaining their weapons in the desert environment". Something like that. It sounds better than "some guys said it's cool, but it breaks[citation needed]".
I trust you will follow through on this. Overall, good content, references and images. Vote changed to support.Dhatfield (talk) 22:14, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:19, 11 April 2009 [78].

John L. Helm

[edit]
Nominator(s): Acdixon (talk • contribs • count)

I have recently done a total rewrite of this article. Following the rewrite, I had a very good copy editor go over the text. The article just passed GA, and I believe should be able to make FA. To my knowledge, I have consulted all major sources on the subject. I look forward to your reviews, and hopefully, your support. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 02:45, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) Simply excellent, but I do have a few nitpicks:

  • The source doesn't really say. The Wikipedia article on Green calls him a "school teacher", but Kentucky's Governors calls him a lawyer, so perhaps he read law with him. I really don't know, so I've used the generic "educator".
  • Yep. Thanks.
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • I've added an "and" although I'm not sure if it's necessary grammatically.
  • Done.
  • I thought I used all en dashes. I can't find any occurrences of &mdash;.
  • Thanks. Fixed now.
  • Good catch. I think I got them all now.
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • Yep. Bad spelling on my part.
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • Yep. Fixed now.
  • Fixed.
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • Not sure if it is a variant, but I have no problem changing it as suggested.
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • Reworded. How does that sound?

Think that's it. Mostly proofreading stuff. Dabomb87 (talk) 19:26, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the careful reading. Hope you can now support the article's promotion. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 12:20, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Laser brain (talk) 16:49, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about the slow response; my laptop charger died and my access to the Internet has been limited. The source says that Helm withdrew after nine ballots "whereupon" the House chose Letcher over Morehead. The implication seems to be that it was the very next ballot. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:26, 7 April 2009 [79].

Murray Chotiner

[edit]
Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk)

I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe it meets FA criteria. I've been doing considerable work on the article, and I think it is a compelling story of an enigmatic man who is known as an adviser to Nixon, in first this would be the first Nixon aide to reach FA (unless you count Pat!) Also, the 100th anniversary of Chotiner's birth is coming up in October, so no time like the present. I even went to Chotiner's grave (about five miles from my home) and took pix. The article heavily relies on fee articles, but that's just one of those things. Wehwalt (talk) 16:26, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • The following ref name is used more than once to name a ref, when it should only be naming one specific ref
  • vin

--Best, ₮RUCӨ 23:55, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that has been fixed now.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:55, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I imagine Voorhis will be coming up soon and I'll look forward to that. Brianboulton (talk) 14:24, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've made those changes and caught a couple of typos, hopefully the last. Yes, Voorhis is coming up, but as I have one of his books on order, and it is next in line at GAN, I figured I'd hold off for a bit. Hope you will strike your comments and support.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:43, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think I better read the article first. Will report back soon. Brianboulton (talk) 00:18, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments:

I have picked up the odd typo. On the whole this is a strong article which I am inclined to support when the above points have been addressed. Brianboulton (talk) 13:21, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. The issues will take probably until the weekend, as I am presently away and will not have the sources with me until Saturday. A few quick things. The capped slogan is as per the original. I think the cemetery would have a fit if I started bringing cleaning chemicals there, so I guess that's the best I can do. We had to have one free image, that will have to do. I'm trying to find out more about Chotiner's childhood, but will rephrase to avoid the point. It begs the question of why his mother didn't work, but the Morris book says his mother was "difficult", there may have been illness. Anyhow, I won't get to most of this until tomorrow and will finish on the weekend. I'm going to delete the whole Knowland for VP thing, because I now have a source that says that Knowland was offered the job and turned it down. I am going to restructure the 1946-1960 part of the article to make it align with Nixon's jobs. Congress, VP. It is the best way to do it, I think, and will of course modify the headings.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:19, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Take your time: my remarks about the stonework were intended as graveyard humour.Brianboulton (talk) 17:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I know, I addressed it in case anyone didn't get it. Progress report: I've addressed all but the "WE WILL NOT SURRENDER" (I want to quote the passage from the book and get reaction), the permanent campaign (that was put in by someone else and I'm going to consult references) and I've left it as "Death and legacy", it is a fairly conventional way of ending an article, and I don't have a better title offhand. "Death" seems kinda short.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:05, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On reference to Richard Nixon's memoirs, which was the cite inserted by another editor to support the info about the campaigning through the six year term (I modified the information when it was inserted, to what I thought it meant), there is not enough info to see exactly what Chotiner was proposing, so i am deleting the passage about the permanent campaign.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The exact language, which I heavily borrowed from due to the same uncertaintly as to what he meant that you had, page 292 of Morris, is "In 1946 he (Chotiner) was able to work only part-time on the Nixon campaign because he was also helping to manage William Knowland's reelection to the Senate. For that run he had coined the slogan "WE WILL NOT SURRENDER," a motto in which he managed, characteristically, to convey that the Democratic opponent, Will Rogers Jr., contemplated doing just that." I can certainly switch it to lower case, and put a comment in that the original was all caps. Thoughts?--Wehwalt (talk) 16:59, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed this for you. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:52, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You don't need to have them in bold .. I fixed it for you. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:52, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks, I'll clean up my other articles based on this, when I have some time.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:55, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing in the Monad article that isn't in the LA Times article, other than the fact that Heinlein turned to Scince Fiction, which is hardly contentious. I will take it out if you want, but it seems to me to be helpful to have. I'll leave it up to you. I'll dispose of the other issues later in the day, can't do it now. Thank you.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:23, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I've made all your changes, Ealdgyth. I removed both refs. I had a backup ref for the 1938 race. I removed the info that people thought he, not Mitchell, was running the Nixon campaign, because I have no backup there. I'll read through my Nixon refs in a bit and see if I can find anything. It is a tidbit, but we can easily do without it. Who's next?--Wehwalt (talk) 16:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

oppose - The copyrighted image File:Chotiner.jpg is unjustified, for an individual with involment at such high levels in the US, it is implausible there is not a free image taken by the US federal government Fasach Nua (talk) 20:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the thought. I will look for one, but I'd point out to you that Chotiner was a Federal employee for less than two years, and was not an original member of the Nixon White House staff. Therefore, there may not be one, or it may not be available with ordinary effort, and it may not be possible to act on your oppose. Note that for much of his career, Chotiner was a campaign official, and the Federal government would not routinely take photographs of such officials. I will make a serious effort to find one, though. Meanwhile, can you point at some language in the policy on images which supports your oppose?--Wehwalt (talk) 20:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd also point out that of Chotiner's three fellow White House counsels of the time, two have articles, Charles Colson and Clark Mollenhoff, and neither have free use pictures. While other crap exists, of course, it is evidence that people at Chotiner's level did not regularly have free use photos made. And of course Chuck Colson was far more prominent than Chotiner ...--Wehwalt (talk) 21:59, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Mattisse has been kind enough to add on to the fair use rationale of that image, and I've fine tuned that.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:35, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have searched the internet by any means I know how, and I find no free use picturs of Chotiner.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have asked Fasach Nua to revisit his oppose, he has refused. The oppose is not consistent with WP:WIAFA; as I can't prove a negative, I will ask that the oppose be disregarded as unactionable. That being said, I'll look into offline possibilities. I'm not holding my breath though.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I should also note that today's TFA, Barthélemy Boganda has only a fair use image, plus a user-created image of his country's flag. I really don't think that Fasach Nua's oppose is very well made.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:40, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was asked to revisit my oppose, and after careful consideration I did, [80], and found the original assessment to be valid and the oppose stood. I do not appreciate being misrepresented in this forum. As for one particular article using copyrighted material, it should be noted that FU is based on WP:NFCC which deals with contribution and education, and nothing so meaningless as a quota system for non-free content. Fasach Nua (talk) 19:01, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
When I said revisit, I really meant "change" or "withdraw" at least. I am sorry if my inexact terminology offended you, and as I posted diffs, I don't think there was any "misrepresentation". Still, you are asking me to prove a negative, and your oppose is not consistent with WP:WIAFA.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:08, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Can you get someone new to run through the whole text? Tony (talk) 08:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've made the changes you have suggested, making it clear exactly why Congress was investigating Chotiner, and have asked Mattisse to give the article a once-over. I left one capitalized communism in, by the way, as it is a direct quote. If she can't do it, I'll see if I can find someone else. Thank you as always for your honest feedback. I don't ask that people love my articles, all I ask is that they tell me what they think, because as you have noted, it is hard to be objective about your own prose. I'm going to have to leave a note on your talk page when this is done, hope you don't mind.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:18, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mattisse went through the article pretty thoroughly and did her usual fine job, and then I took a pass through it myself and cleared up a few stylistic things. I think that takes care of that, and I'll leave a note on Tony's talk page.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:52, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Incidently, LIFE photographed him because Chotiner (who was not a federal employee then) was subpoenaed before a Senate committee in 1956, and it was a major story. It's all in the article. Doesn't mean a federal employee would. However, there is a good chance that the Nixon library may have some, we'll see. If they don't, I think I will have made a good faith effort.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just spent 2 hours searching through databases of old journals, newspapers, books, and legal documents for images of Chotiner (including the NYTimes database going back to 1851). I found absolutely nothing in terms of free use images, one image attributed to the associated press (emailed to Wehwalt), and another image of Chotiner sitting with Nixon that had no attribution at all. --auburnpilot talk 05:18, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Above and beyond, AP! Anyhow, if I get out of court at a reasonable hour, I'm going over to College Park. Thing is, I understand parking is limited, they make you watch a power point presentation before beginning research, all that good stuff. We'll see.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 15:56, 7 April 2009 [81].

Acid2

[edit]
Nominator(s): —Remember the dot (talk)

I have done my best to address the concerns brought up in the previous FACs, and feel that this article now meets the standards of stability, comprehensiveness, and understandability required of featured articles. —Remember the dot (talk) 18:12, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image concerns as follow:

Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 07:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 15:56, 7 April 2009 [84].

Cyathus

[edit]
Nominator(s): Sasata (talk)

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it meets the FAC criteria, and I'd really like to adorn it with the illustrious symbol of quality, the bronze star. The article passed GAC without much fanfare, and has been subsequently substantially improved with the help of a number of great suggestions at peer review. This is the first of what I hope will be many FAC submissions from me. With the help of these stacks of mycology books and journal articles piled around me, and a coffee machine, I am ready and willing to supplement the existing information, or massage the text to assuage the idiosyncrasies of any reviewer who wishes to read and comment. Thanks in advance. Sasata (talk) 04:30, 21 March 2009 (UTC) (P.S. I'm in the WikiCup)[reply]

Some prose issues in lede to start of with...

Bolded. Sasata (talk) 15:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Sasata (talk) 15:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done, although plication was as close as I could get for plicate. Perhaps I'll add a direct definition for plicate in wiktionary later. Sasata (talk) 15:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sentence jigged. Sasata (talk) 15:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dabs need to be fixed (checked with the links checker tool)
  • External links are up to speed (checked with the links checker tool)
  • Ref formatting (checked with the WP:REFTOOLS script) is not up to speed
  • The following refs (code pasted below) are duplicated and appear in the ref section as such, use a ref name instead
  • There is one ref that is blank and has no content, that needs to be fixed
  • Brodie p. 150.
  • ((cite journal |author=Allbutt AD, Ayer WA, Brodie HJ, Johri BN, Taube H. |title=Cyathin, a new antibiotic complex produced by ''Cyathus helenae'' |journal=Canadian Journal of Microbiology |volume=17 |issue=11 |pages=1401–7 |year=1971 |month=|pmid=5156938 |doi= |url=))
  • The following ref names are given to more than one ref, it should only name 1 ref
Fix dabs and dup references (I hope). I think the problem for some of them was that I wasn't using the forward-slash-terminated named tags, but instead using </ref> to terminate them. Sasata (talk) 15:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have unchunked and shaved as requested. Hope it's ok now. Sasata (talk) 22:47, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I had done it this way for a reason; the article text makes reference to the fact that a monograph was written about the genus, and I wanted to give reference to the book, but a specific page number is not required. Should I just change the reference to "Brodie."? I didn't think this was the proper solution, because I use several of his other publications as sources. Advice on how to best handle this specific case would be appreciated. (Maybe "Brodie, 1975." ?) Sasata (talk) 15:43, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That works for that then. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Note I passed this article for GA. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:29, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support After all my haranguing, the editor has masterfully improved the article in response to my queries.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:00, 1 April 2009 (UTC) At my FAC you asked for comments on this one. Here they are: Oppose Weak Oppose Neutral I found the article to be deficient in explaining very basic information from the perspective of the unschooled reader of this topic. After reading the WP:LEAD, I found myself wondering the following:[reply]

What is the natural habitat for this genus? I.E., where does it naturally occur? Has it been transplanted elsewhere? E.G., does it occur here in North America? Shouldn't there be a map describing where it is commonly found? The places I expected to find the information, Cyathus#Habitat_and_distribution and Cyathus#Spore_dispersal, did not explain this.
  • I've expanded the sentence in the lead that dealt with distribution, and added a fair bit to the habitat and distribution section to more thoroughly cover this aspect. I didn't bother putting in a distribution map, because collectively the genus' distribution is worldwide. Sasata (talk) 05:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What is the lifecycle for this genus? Does it live for 5 days, 5 months, 5 years? Is it an annual or perennial? Cyathus#Life_cycle told me nothing?
  • You are going to have to be patient with me. I am not understanding what a generation is for these things. Can they produce 10 new generations of fruiting bodies a year or one every ten years. Also, it seems like meiosis is single parent as if two different sperm (analogy) fuse or something. Did I understand this correctly or did I miss a pollination explanation?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:48, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was deliberately vague, but I've added the following sentence in the Habitat and Distribution section: "The appearance of fruiting bodies is largely dependent upon features of the immediate growing environment; specifically, optimum conditions of temperature, moisture, and nutrient availability are more important factors for fruiting rather than the broad geographical area in which the fungi are located, or the season."
  • I added the sentence "The dikaryotic mycelia from which the fruiting bodies are produced is long lasting, and will continue to produce successive generations of fruiting bodies as long as the environmental conditions are favorable." This is about as specific as I can get, I can't find any source that states exactly how long the mycelia of Cyathus can live, although it's relatively common knowledge (among mycologists, of course) that in comparable species (i.e. other Basidiomycetes), this may be several years or longer, until the wood fully decomposes. Sasata (talk) 20:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • When I ask if you have clarified the lifespan I think what I meant to ask is what is a common life expectancy? Isn't life expectancy a basic element of a FA for these types of things? Then I also want an explanation of this things durability. If I knock it off the wood it is on will it re-root and grow in place or will it die. Can you kill it by chopping off the head or not? I don't think you responded to that unless I missed it in all the big words.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:48, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's difficult to balance your desire to know everything about this fungus' lifestyle with violating the summary style criterion. Some of the questions you seek answers to are best answered in articles dealing more with basic fungal biology. For example, I could put in a section explaining how the fungus degrades dead plant material, eventually breaking this plant material into humus and other nutrients that can be used by other organisms, thus fitting in with the global carbon cycle. But the problem is that this process is not unique to Cyathus, but rather all saprobic fungi; that term is linked so the interested reader may read about this process in a more appropriate article. As for the lifespan question, I can't give a simple answer. I previously put in the statement: "The dikaryotic myelia from which the fruiting bodies are produced is long lasting, and will continue to produce successive generations of fruiting bodies as long as the environmental conditions are favorable." I think this covers your question adequately enough: if the mycelia is colonizing a big log, it'll probably have a lifespan measured in years, and will produce fruiting bodies throughout the year as long as the temp and moisture is right. If the mycelia has colonized a small woodchip, it may only produce one flush of fruiting bodies before it runs out of nutrients. Sasata (talk) 04:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • They have no heads :) Most are less than a cm tall, so you'd miss them with your lawnmower. If you picked all the fruiting bodies off a piece of dead wood, the mycelia in the wood wouldn't care, it would produce more fruiting bodies when the time was right. If you took a fruiting body and chopped it in half, it would dry out and die. If you took that chopped piece, put it flush against another piece of moist, dead wood, under the right environmental conditions (eg. temp and moisture), it might start colonizing the new dead wood, and begin its life cycle anew. However, this applies for any mushroom, hence my reluctance to go into this level of detail here. Readers who want to know this stuff can click on links like hyphae, mycelia, vegetative reproduction to get answers to these questions. Sasata (talk) 04:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "If you picked all the fruiting bodies off a piece of dead wood, the mycelia in the wood wouldn't care, it would produce more fruiting bodies when the time was right." seem to be a fact worth knowing to me. It seems there might be lingo that you could use to put this before the reader.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I thought about it for a while, but decided not to put anything more in the article about this. The life cycle section has already ballooned (mushroomed?) into one of the largest sections of the article, and much of it deals with basic biological information that is not specific to the genus Cyathus. Yes, I agree it's a fact worth knowing, but I don't think it needs to be explicitly stated in this article, as it applies to every mushroom species. Sasata (talk) 15:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Is it endangered? I saw no comments on its proliferation? Even if such information is rendered at the species level, you should tell me if any species are endangered.
  • As far as I can tell, there are no other genus FA's (expect for dinosaur genera), so I don't have much to compare to. The only comparable article I could find was Galerina (a GA), so I copied that taxobox format. I will also add the info to the appropriate species article. Sasata (talk) 20:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Galerina is a three-year old GA. Standards have risen. I am going to WP:GAR it later tonight for two reasons. First, its WP:LEAD was more deficient than yours was when I gave my original opinion. Second, the most common reason I GAR articles is a belated complaint against your article as well. I do not support any articles for GA that do not have all or almost all paragraphs with at least one citation. Each paragraph is suppose to have a relatively distinct thought and should have at least one citation. Please make sure your article is structured so that each of your paragraphs has at least one citation. I don't think this should be too difficult because you only have a couple main body paragraphs without any citations. I guess I am saying don't use it as a model.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:21, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I will look at Talk:Galerina/GA1 in the next few days. I apologize. Yes, I am not a mycologist. I am just a guy who took Biology (advance, honors or A.P. - I don't remember but I was good in the sciences over 25 years ago). When I decided not to be Pre-med, I think I stopped studying mid-course and have forgotten everything. Yes, I am "naive" on the subject. But the article is improving here.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since we have no model, let's just consider the average reader. One of the first things I want to know about a biological classification is whether it is rare and whether it is thriving. Something such as the following should be in the lead such as Genus X has # species. Of theses species X# are rare, Y# are endagnered and the rest are not known to be less than "safe" as of sources current on MMM YYYY.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:21, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've mentioned the one locally endangered species in the lead, readers can get more info in the article text or (eventually, once I put it in there) the species article. Sasata (talk) 04:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • A genus as a whole cannot really be "endangered" as such, and so it does not belong in the taxobox, which is as close to an infobox as you are going to get. I agree that information about the number of species and the rarity of various species may have a place in the article, but I would argue that it is probably not worthy of the lead, and certainly not worthy of a taxobox. J Milburn (talk) 23:07, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What is its place in the food chain. I.E., are there any species or genuses that thrive on this genus? Does it typically feed off of a genus or species that it helps kill or helps live?
  • I'm not sure I can add much more to what I have already without bordering on OR. Essentially, it's known that various species feed on dead wood or dung, but I haven't found any studies that investigate this more fully. As for organisms that thrive on this genus, there's one report from 1938 describing how a bird's nest fungus was parasitized by another fungus, but that association seems to have been non-specific, and wasn't recorded (to my knowledge) again in the literature. Brodie in his monograph writes of evidence that snails might consume the fungus, but its only circumstantial (i.e. he didn't see it directly, there were chewed up fungi and snails nearby). I can put this info in if you really think it's vital. Sasata (talk) 05:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • O.K. so it commonly thrives on decomposing, dead or decaying matter. Does it secrete decomposition aids? Does it somehow aid the process. Is there a byproduct of the decomposition process that they gain nourishment from. I guess you can not technically call it a parasite because it does not thrive on living matter, but it seems to thrive on types of matter. I do not understand why. Is it unable to compete with living matter for nourishment and relegated to decomposing matter? Are you talking about living fibrous shells or dead. Be clear in the text because these nuts and such seem possibly to be one of the few living hosts if I am reading this right.— Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talk • contribs) 07:03, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was initially reluctant to go into this, as some of the questions you're asking about are applicable to thousands of fungal species, and I thought it was more appropriate for a different article. But I now realize this stuff should be mentioned here to make this article more complete. So I've expanded the life cycle section, and I think I've covered (if only briefly) the aspects you asked about, like secretion of enzymes that help it digest wood components, and mention of persistent dikarytotic mycelia from which fruiting bodies are formed.
  • I am still somewhat reluctant to strike this point. Here is my problem. O.K. we know it like to digest certain sugars that attract its colonies. That sort of gives us one direction of the food chain. However, on the other end you only tell us about whether humans eat it. It lives in bird nests I think you said. Do birds eat it. It is found on dead matter. Do foragers of living matter eat it as a primary nutrient or scavengers of dead matter eat it as a complement or substitute to their nurishment?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:05, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I thought I had answered this before... Brodie noted that snails may eat the fungus, but evidence was circumstantial. The fungus does not live in bird's nests, it has the common name bird's nest fungus because of its appearance (stated in the lead). Birds do not eat it (well, they might, but no-one has noticed or written that in print). Its place in the food chain is that it's saprobic; I did add this (linked) word again in the life cycle section. Sasata (talk) 04:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can not support this with my basic understanding of the topic in anything resembling its current state.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:44, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What does it mean when you say "especially older specimens that may have external features worn off". You never describe stuff wearing off. Does the ectoperidium go bald with age. What wears off?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:44, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Have clarified by stating: "... especially older, weathered specimens of Cyathus that may have the hairy ectoperidium worn off." Sasata (talk) 02:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Have you clarified whether the "fibrous material like coconut, jute" is from elements no longer organically connected to the tree by having fallen or do they grow on cocunuts while on the tree?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:44, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The latter part of that sentence now reads "... like coconut, jute, or hemp fiber woven into matting, sacks or cloth." Please let me know if I can make it clearer than that. Sasata (talk) 02:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are there no illustrations of Mycelia? I still do not understand what they are. Are they the green stuff beneath the fruiting body of the main image or are those hyphae?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:44, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Those questions are application to all mushroom species, and you can see images of them in their respective articles (I just added a pic of mycelium to its article). Basically, the hyphae is a single filament, the mycelium is a larger mass of interwoven hyphae. (I'm not exactly sure what the green stuff is in the taxobox picture, but I'd guess some kind of bryophyte (moss)). Sasata (talk) 02:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
After introducing the terms "infection, spread, and survival" use them later where relevant just like germinate. I don't see these later phases because I don't know what to look for.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:44, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the word "infection" because although technically correct (using the definition "An uncontrolled growth of harmful microorganisms in a host."), its also potentially ambiguous. I've now used the remaining introductory terms in the paragraph. Sasata (talk) 02:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Will an hour of light a day suffice or do they need 8 hours. Saying that they need light does nto tell me much. If you have any details it would be helpful.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:44, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Added more detail. Sasata (talk) 02:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I must be missing it. Where?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Continuous light is not required for fruiting body development; after the mycelium has reached a certain stage of maturity, only a brief exposure to light is necessary, and fruiting bodies will form if even subsequently kept in the dark." Sasata (talk) 20:41, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I do not understand why the spores do not get digested as they pass through the digestive tract.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:44, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Have added a couple sentences about the fate of peridioles and spores. Sasata (talk) 02:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The relevance of the Bioactive compounds section is not clear to me.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:44, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
These are unique biochemicals produced only by this genus, some with antibacterial, antioxidant, or potential medicinal properties; I didn't think this article could be considered complete without at least mentioning this info. Sasata (talk) 02:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure I understand these splash cups. Do they always open to the point of convexity as pictured in one illustration or are some of them fully open although concave?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mature fruiting bodies are fully open, and depicted as "A" in the first diagram, beside the immature, closed fruiting body. Sasata (talk) 20:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What is going on with File:Cyathus poeppigii.jpg. Why is it convex?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think maybe it just appears convex because the photo was taken from straight above and from that perspective it lacks some visual cues to show that it's actually concave. I can remove it if you like (or replace it with another picture of something more obviously concave). Sasata (talk) 21:57, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Should this have a ((mycomorphbox)) somewhere.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The mycomorphboxes are better suited for species-level articles, and for mushrooms with a more "typical" shape. I could put one in, it would look like this (I don't think it's useful here): I put it in the article, per the WikiProject Fungi's guidelines. (But I'm not a fan). Sasata (talk) 08:41, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do these things survive prolonged sub-freezing temperatures?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:54, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The fruiting bodies probably wouldn't make it, but the mycelia would just lay dormant until conditions were favorable for fruiting again (this is the case for all mushrooms). Sasata (talk) 08:28, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can you source that and add it to the article.

How about elevation. Do these survive above the tree line.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:12, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can't generalize for the whole genus, but I did add in some specific examples to address the latest two points: "Examples of the ability of Cyathus to thrive in somewhat inhospitable environments are shown by C. striatus and C. stercoreus, which can survive the drought and cold of winter in temperate North America,[19] and the species C. helenae, which has been found growing on dead alpine plants at an altitude of 7,000 feet (2,100 m).[20]"
If these can survive at a high altitude, I need another question answered. Are these not like green plants that need CO2 to produce Oxygen. Can you describe air composition needs and uses.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:18, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
They obviously don't have any Chlorophyll. I am just trying to get an understanding of their activity.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is another question dealing with mushroom biology, and I don't think needs to be discussed here. I don't think there have been any studies dealing with "air composition" in relation to Cyathus. It's a very valid question when dealing with lichens, as many are pollution sensitive and will only thrive in clean air, but it doesn't apply to this genus. Sasata (talk) 15:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from J Milburn

I reviewed the article at peer review a couple of weeks ago, and all issues raised there have been dealt with. These are some issues I have spotted on this reading.

  • No articles on these compounds; yes they are specific to this genus. I could start these articles too, but I don't think they'd be much more than stubs. Sasata (talk)
  • I've clarified in the intro sentence for that section that these compounds are Cyathus specific. I couldn't find any application for these metabolites, other than a 1981 paper describing their total synthesis, but they don't seem to be mentioned again in the literature. Sasata (talk) 20:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hope that helps. Feel free to chop up/strike out my comments as appropriate. J Milburn (talk) 20:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gone. Sasata (talk) 03:44, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review (part 2) File:Cyathus striatus Buller.jpg - We need a death date for W. G. Smith to establish life of the author plus 70 years. Awadewit (talk) 20:08, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Worthington G. Smith (1837-1917), info from Ainsworth CG. (1976). A History of Mycology. Cambridge University Press. p. 347. I'll add his death year to the file info. Sasata (talk) 21:33, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 15:56, 7 April 2009 [85].

Phagocyte

[edit]
Nominator(s): Eulemur2008 (talk · contribs) and Graham Colm Talk 14:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We are nominating this for featured article because, have you ever wondered why pus is green, or what is the fate of all those unfriendly bacteria that we encounter every second of every day, or even how we rid our bodies of used-up cells? We have been working on this article for six months. Last autumn, I, Eulemur, adopted a poor, neglected stub as part of my contribution to Wikipedia:WikiProject AP Biology 2008—an educational assignment, and I Graham offered Eulemur my help as a mentor. Working together on Eulemur's substantial research—which in his own right brought the article to GA—we have contributed an article that we consider is worthy of an FA star. We have been helped by in-depth peer reviews from Colin, Brian Boulton, Natural Cut and other members of the AP project, (but we do not presume their support). This collaboration has been overseen—distantly—by Eulemur's biology teacher Mr Butler. We thank all the other editors who have helped with this, but stress that any remaining errors are probably all our own work. Graham Colm Talk 14:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Colin, your intelligent, critical analysis—from a lay-persons perspective—was indispensable. Due to your patience, help and advice, this once opaque and very technical article can now, we hope, be appreciated by a wider readership. Graham Colm Talk 16:06, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your help and support Colin. --Eulemur2008 (talk) 22:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Sasata

Hi Sasata, thank you for these comments. I have replaced the hyphens with endashes where needed. There was a long discussion about abbreviated journal titles here, but a consensus was not reached and the MoS, as far as I have searched, has nothing to say on this. I have used diberri's tool for many of the citations, as many medicine and biology FAs have done, which returns an accepted format for them. I will fix the "neutrophils" and "etymology" problem today. Thanks again. Graham Colm Talk 10:57, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As we all are :-) Thanks. Graham Colm Talk 16:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your kind words and support. Graham Colm Talk 13:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ealdgyth, I'll do as you suggest. Graham Colm Talk 16:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I was responsible for the abbreviated Janeway refs. I shortened the full citations to just the author and chapter name with a URL convenience link and moved the full citation to the bibliography section. Do the article authors have a paper copy? I note that the original citation had the ISBN of the 7th ed, but the online version is the 5th ed. If you have the paper, then we could replace this with a standard "Janeway, p 50–70" style ref. Then append a note that the text is available free online here (if necessary, pointing out that the edition is different). I dislike the new suffix of "This book is listed in Bibiliography section below." and would probably prefer a return to three full citations if the explanation needs to be that long. Would "see Bibliography" be enough? Colin°Talk 17:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a paper copy of this one (I have for all the others) I think "see bibliography" would be suitable if Ealdgyth is happy with this. Graham Colm Talk 17:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That'd work out fine, "see bibliography" works. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:32, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Colin and Graham. Sorry about the ISBN mix-up on the Janeway ref; when I clicked on a link for information on the book it went to the current 7th edition instead of the 5th. Thanks for your suggestions Ealdgyth. --Eulemur2008 (talk) 19:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Graham Colm Talk 20:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, and I have added the link. Graham Colm Talk 07:51, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, really good job, guys.Mitchazenia :  Chat  3 years and counting... 10:17, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your support and kind words. The purpose of the sentence you have quoted is to guide the reader gently into the next section on antigen presentation which is fully sourced. We can of course duplicate the appropriate reference if you wish. Graham Colm Talk 10:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I get nagged to do that, so I just make sure that all end-of-paragraph sentences are sourced. If you could fix it, Thanks.Mitchazenia :  Chat  3 years and counting... 10:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, no problem. Graham Colm Talk 10:51, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One image concern as follows:

I have verified the rest of the images to be in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 13:19, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Jappalang, I have swapped the image as advised. It is a poorer portrait but his being in the laboratory compensates to some extent for this—I love all those tubes and bottles. Thank you for taking the time to find this. You could have simply objected to the previous one and left it at that—but you didn't, and this is much appreciated. Graham. Graham Colm Talk 13:32, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Aye, it was no problem; the searching was fun at times. Jappalang (talk) 13:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi ErgoSum and thank you for your comments on the article. Yes I know these pages appear differently depending on the readers' screens, but I think the ((clear)) templates that you have added will cause more whitespace problems than you tried to solve. So I will remove them—I hope you don't mind. Your comments on fuller image legends are interesting, but of course are not an FA requirement. Actually, the example you kindly offered is not accurate. This is why we prefer the simpler legends—fuller, accurate descriptions would require numerous wikilinks in the legends which we have tried to avoid. I understand why you suggest this because I (Graham) do it myself when scanning popular science magazines, in that I look at the pictures first. Thanks for reading and reviewing this article your contribution to this FAc is very much appreciated. Best wishes. Graham Colm Talk 22:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thats fine, the clear templates weren't a big deal, just a personal preference. Regardless of the accuracy of my caption suggestion, I still think it would be a good idea. Wikilinks are not required for captions, and actually terms shouldn't be linked after the first mention anyway. I realize cosmetic issues (such as captions and whitespace) are not FA requirements, but I try to help in whatever way I can. This is not really my area of expertise (I deal mainly with the transportation categories), so I'm sorry I can't give you any meaningful constructive criticism. For this reason I'm also going to refrain from casting a vote. But a good job nonetheless, and very informative! --ErgoSum88 (talk) 02:29, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It looks OK on my screen Jappalang, but I haven't purged my cache yet. Was it okay at your end in earlier versions? Have recent edits caused this problem? We don't want a code problem at this crucial stage of the FAC. :-( Graham. Graham Colm Talk 22:59, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It could just be a browser issue. It seems fine for "Non-professional Phagocytes" in this version, but "Professional Phagocytes" is displaced. The problem becomes worse for "Non-professional Phagocytes" in the current version when the table is brought to the centre, instead of being placed at the right. Jappalang (talk) 23:02, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For me, it looks OK in Firefox ( version 3.08, my routine browser) and in Explorer and Safari, which I always treble-check with. So I am at a loss here. Sorry, perhaps some youngster can help me out? Graham Colm Talk 23:14, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It looks fine for me too in Firefox and IE. I even checked with Netscape and it looked ok there too. --Yohmom (talk) 23:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I use Internet Explorer and I am unable to find anything wrong with the tables. Thanks for your concerns Jappalang. --Eulemur2008 (talk) 23:54, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You are all correct. I just tested on Opera and Internet Explorer, and the page looks fine. Looks like a bug with old Firefox (2.0.0.20). Sorry for the needless alarm. Jappalang (talk) 01:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support interesting and informative; I can't see anything significant that needs fixing jimfbleak (talk) 19:23, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your kind words and support. Graham Colm Talk 13:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for these comments. Yes, I agree that the article focuses on mammalian phagocytes and gives many examples from humans, but I do not think this is a problem. I think most readers will find our phagocytes the most interesting. The article does not completely ignore the phagocytes of other species and says, for example; Phagocytes occur throughout the animal kingdom, from marine sponges to insects and lower and higher vertebrates. — Animals' cells constantly die and are replaced by cell division and the third sentence of the Lead, Phagocytes are important throughout the animal kingdom, and are highly developed in vertebrates.
The section on evolutionary origins has been the subject of much discussion on the article's Talk Page. It was probably the most difficult to write because not that much is known, we do not have the advantage of fossil evidence. Dictyostelium discoideum is definitely a phagocytosing amoeba and, more interestingly, has become over recent years a useful experimental model in the study of phagocytes in that they share many mechanisms, and underlying genes, with macrophages. I have expanded the section this morning in light of your comments, but I can not fully answer your questions on when they first appeared, or what they were; I do not think anyone can yet.
Thanks again, for these useful comments. Graham Colm Talk 11:17, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I see you sorted out the slime mold ambiguities. I still recommend adding species ranges to the discussions about the cell types, "higher animals" is hopelessly imprecise. A discussion on apaptive immunity by alternatively spliced receptors on phagocytes in invertebrates would also benefit the article. Narayanese (talk) 20:47, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Charles Hess source seems self-published, should be replacable. Narayanese (talk) 20:52, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Hess can be replaced with easily with Delves. Would you be happy with jawed vertebrates instead of "higher animals"? With regard to alternatively spliced receptors in invertebrates, could you elaborate? Graham Colm Talk 21:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jawed vertebrates is nicely specific. By alt splicing I was thinking of Dscam... maybe too narrow for the article. But something along the lines of "Recent findings suggest that somatic mechanisms of receptor diversification analogous to those of the acquired system of jawed vertebrates may be a more widespread feature of animal immunity than previously supposed. Examples of these include a gene conversion–like process that diversifies variable leucine-rich repeat (LRR)–containing receptor (VLR) proteins in jawless vertebrates (9, 10), somatic mutation of fibrinogen-related protein (FREP) receptors in a mollusc (11), and extensive alternative splicing of the Down syndrome cell adhesion molecule (DSCAM), a molecule that principally guides neuronal patterning, to generate immune reactive isoforms in insects (12, 13)." (from PMID 17095692) but with a mention that these mechanism aid phagocytosis perhaps? Narayanese (talk) 21:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I am with you, but I need to turn this into Colin-proof and jargon-less prose. Thanks for your advice and review which has helped to improve the article. Graham. Graham Colm Talk 21:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
After some searching around, I saw some of it is not phagocytosis-related, so it might after all be better to skip the whole thing... don't know.
Having spent half an hour trying to write a line or two on this I have to agree. Graham.
I was a bit surprised to read that mesenchymal stem cells (says 'mesenchymal cells' which could be broader (not sure about the term), but the links goes to the stem cells) are phagocytes, possibly the link is not right and should be to Mesenchyme. Narayanese (talk) 23:00, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You are probably right, but both are poor stubs IMHO. It's a good job that FACs do not have to take on the responsibility for the linked articles :-) PS. any chance of a "support" and making an old man's and a very hard working school student's day? Graham Colm Talk 23:33, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll probably get around to it soon, just feel like I need to read the article more. Narayanese (talk) 22:06, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support- this article is well written and quite comprehensive. The content of the parts I'm familiar with is accurate and lay-person friendly (I know nothing about amoeba). I haven't extensively looked into the all references but what I've seen looks very reasonable, and I have no doubt Graham read each and every paper he referenced,... twice. I've listed my suggestions for improvement on the talk page, but they certainly shouldn't stand in the way here.--DO11.10 (talk) 04:35, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your kind words, support and very helpful suggestions. Graham Colm Talk 13:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I knew nothing on phagocytes and now I know much more. Really comprenhensive and easy to read article.--Garrondo (talk) 07:48, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your kind words and support. Graham Colm Talk 13:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 15:56, 7 April 2009 [87].

Paulinus of York

[edit]
Nominator(s): Ealdgyth - Talk 14:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... I swear it's the last short bishop for a while? Seriously, he's the last link in the Gregorian mission featured topic. He's not very interesting, no whippings by St Peter or bastard children lurking about. Most you can say is that there is some controversy among historians as to when he actually went to Northumbria. As usual, research by myself, copyediting by Malleus. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

comments Thorough and well written as usual, but a few quibbles, mainly in the lead

struck it. However, I will point out in my defence that you wouldn't believe how many folks don't think of 644 as medieval nor know that York is in England. ... Ealdgyth - Talk 00:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
works for me. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Switched to "The second group of missionaries arrived... " which also rids me of a stray "had". Ealdgyth - Talk 00:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Let's try "... Christian and worship as she chose." Ealdgyth - Talk 00:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Still good. Thanks for finding the typo. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I look forward to supporting shortly jimfbleak (talk) 16:01, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support Your solutions to the last two queries much better than my suggestions;, as to the first, didn't someone say "War is God's way of teaching Americans geography"? (: Good luck, jimfbleak (talk) 06:01, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment
I'd guess they went poof in the Dissolution. Most relics in England did then. Nothing I have says what happened to them, though. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that there are any relics from prior to the Dissolution left in England. There are some that might be with Rufus' bones, but I'm not sure they ever figured out whose they might be (they aren't sure those bones are Rufus' either, for that matter.) What didn't get lost in the Dissolution generally got lost under Cromwell. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:31, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ha! I know a bishop fact that you don't! – iridescent 22:35, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's unsourced (snickers) You know me.. if it's not sourced, it doesn't exist... (Cuthbert's on my "eventually" list along with Becket.. but only after I finish all the others...)Ealdgyth - Talk 22:40, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: no issue with the statue (its sculptor should be dead centuries ago, and if not, the UK has freedom of panorama). The map should not be a GIF, so I converted it to a PNG and used that. Maps are recommended to be SVGs per Wikipedia:Image use policy, but the PNG should suffice at a minimum level. Anyone interested in making an SVG for the map here, please go ahead. In short, no opposable actions for the two pictures. Jappalang (talk) 05:37, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning towards support Interesting article, though I found the writing a little dense at times.

It was both (convert and allow the daughter to be baptised) ... I've rephrased to "Edwin promised to convert to Christianity and allow his new daughter Eanflæd to be baptised if he won a victory over Wessex." which hopefully clears that up. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:26, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good. Ceoil (talk) 21:00, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Let's try "Edwin was defeated by the Welsh and died at the Battle of Hatfield Chase, on a date traditionally given as 12 October 633." That better? I agree the previous was not good. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:26, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Works for me. Ceoil (talk) 21:00, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll get to these in a few, I JUST got in from finishing up fencing outside and I stink to high heaven. Shower calls! Ealdgyth - Talk 19:33, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a busy man. Responce in 20 minutes or I oppose. Har. Ceoil (talk) 19:52, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Well constructed and referenced, and a pleasure to read. Tiniest gleanings:

Yes, it is. (after I parsed the grammar-speak.) Changed to "because of". Ealdgyth - Talk 20:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mine would have shot me if I didn't do Paulinus'. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to "wished" I'm not entirely certain that "anxious" wasn't a leftover from the old 1911 britannica, which was the origin of this article, way back when. I've rewritten it almost completely, but sometimes a word or two will linger. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
fixed per Ceoil above. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Replaced "he" with "Paulinus". Hate the repetition, but it's necessary. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But this is all very, very minor. Let me just add how much I, knowing nothing of the subject, enjoyed the article and found it easy to absorb. Tim riley (talk) 19:05, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll get to these in a few, I JUST got in from finishing up fencing outside and I stink to high heaven. Shower calls! Ealdgyth - Talk 19:33, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 15:56, 7 April 2009 [88].

Samuel Johnson's early life

[edit]
Nominator(s): Ottava Rima (talk)

I am nominating this for featured article because Raul listed the Samuel Johnson page as the Featured Article of the Day back in January and Johnson needs a FA article for his 300th birthday coming up 9 September 2009. This page was originally part of the main Johnson page but was split to make room for information on themes, works, criticism, etc, that some FAC reviewers wanted (as it met the size range before FAC). That FAC was supported by over 30 people in the end.

The sections moved were written by myself with the original guidance and copyediting of Malleus Fatuorum‎. I would list him as a co-nom, but he knows that regardless of his actual participation in this directly, that he will get credit for the many months of work that he put into the page as a whole and these sections. Since his and mine original work (and over a dozen copyeditors), I added two new sections ("Parents" and "Early works") along with a few sentences to expand on a few issues that seemed that they could use a little more. I also added 4 more images since then to fill in any gaps. I also had an additional 6 more copyeditors look through the page for any problems. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:27, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support – issues resolved.--Pattont/c 13:43, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Concerns from Patton123

Technical review:

That's all. It's a brilliant article, great work! I really liked the quote boxes :-)--Pattont/c 19:11, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I try to avoid wikilinking unless it is to proper names. I don't remember when those came in but I removed them. I changed some of the wording. I think the first problem was from a merged sentence. I removed some more wikilinks that seemed excessive. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:21, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Great. Collapsing and supporting.--Pattont/c 19:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Dabs and external links (checker tools)
  • ..are up to speed
Ref formatting (WP:REFTOOLS)
  • The following ref is duplicated (wikicode pasted below), and appears as such in the ref section. Use a ref name instead
Fixed. It appears that there was a formatting error. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:33, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
...is found up to speed.--₮RUCӨ 21:54, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Fowler&fowler

I'm an sorry to be this blunt this early in an FAC review, but the prose has far too many issues of grammar, usage, clarity and logic to be worthy of an FA. Here are some examples from the first lead paragraph. I want to stress though that every paragraph in the article has similar problems.

The article needs a very careful copy-edit. My own sense is that such a copy-edit cannot be undertaken in the time frame available for an FAC. The article should be withdrawn, worked on, and re-submitted. We owe at least that much to Johnson. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As per this page, the bulk of the article has been copyedited by over two dozen people. As per the comments above, there is no real grammatical issues. If this user continues in his way, I will take him immediately to WP:ANI for a point violation. As such, I will not acknowledge this user's presence within this FAC. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note - the lead, the first section, and last section (the "new" sections) have been copy edited by over seven people. Notice how he is unable to come up with a true grammatical issue. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:25, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Unless Fowler has been disruptive in the past, you seem to have taken exception to a difference of stylistic opinion. I came across this while browsing Wikipedia but I wanted to point out you have a grammatical issue in the sentence where you say there is no real grammatical issues. Sorry, couldn't resist. Mobile Writes (talk) 19:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reply

I think that all of the points raised by Fowler&fowler have been addressed. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Post2 by Fowler&fowler—Question for Sandy Georgia or Awadewit

What is a point violation? What have I violated in my statement above that is worthy of AN/I time? I am happy to point out prose issues in pretty much every sentence of the article. I have tried to be polite in my post above. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't point out any prose issues. You used incorrect terms. You even questioned what "dominate" means when a native English speaker understands what a dominate part of a life is, and you even claimed that you would find tons of problems within the best FA right now, which this was a part of and whose prose (the vast majority) was passed by over 2 dozen people before it was placed on its own page to make room for others. Those who passed it included some of our top copyeditors. This all comes after -you- threatened to find "errors". You coming to this FAC almost immediately, combined with the threat, and combined with your false oppose is enough to warrant that you are here only for disruption and should be banned from FAC. WP:POINT if you want to know what a point violation is. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:51, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Post3 by Fowler&fowler—Further comments on syntax and diction in remainder of "Parents" section

I am working with this version of the FAC page. I have already commented on Sentences 1 through 4 in this section (on the FAC talk page). Here are most of the remaining sentences in that section.

No, the grammatical subject of the sentence is the mysterious happening. Graham Colm Talk 23:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This has already been addressed below. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:49, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, Marriage: The action, or an act of marrying; the ceremony by which two people are made husband and wife Marriage is the best word in this context. Graham Colm Talk 23:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I have the March 2009 draft edition of the OED right here. "Marriage" for "wedding" is archaic, Scottish or South Asian usage; not standard English usage. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:49, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Archaic? Get a better dictionary. Gay marriage is used quite frequently. Marriage is a legal definition. Wedding is not. This is just more evidence that you should be a primary English speaker before criticizing English usage. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, again from the OED, Provoke; to give rise to Graham Colm Talk 23:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:28, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am quoting from the OED (the complete one, that is.) The usage "give rise to" is restricted to natural phenomena as I have already observed.

Comment good writing is writing that is understood, better writing has colour, feeling and nuance. I am often accused of being a notorious nit-picker, but really the comments from Fowler&Fowler would be used by H. W. Fowler, were he still alive, as examples of constipated prose that fails to keep up with modern English usage. Graham Colm Talk 23:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid Fowler actually would use your first sentence to illustrate failure of logic, and urge you to change your second independent clause to "better writing also has ...." Clearly better writing needs to be understood as well. That is only the most obvious problem in that sentence. Besides there are nine sentences that I objected to above. You haven't said anything about them. If you honestly think that user:Ottava Rima's broken prose has color, feeling, and nuance, why don't you give me a few minutes and I'll give you some more examples from another section of the article. (It will be in F&f post4.) Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:49, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note after reading Fowler's third set of comments, I can't see one concern that isn't already contradicted because the passage is either part of standard speech or common sense. Thus, I will be ignoring the concerns as they lack merit. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just to give an example - "'Middle-class' is not an expression that either was used at that time or is generally applied to that time." This is quite untrue. The above user has probably never read a book by either a Marxist or New Historical bent critic, let alone the thousands of others who aren't in either field. Lane makes it very clear that they were middle-class and even states "middle-class". These, and other such comments, show a lack of understanding how biographies work, how criticism works, and show a disregard for what he is actually reviewing. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:29, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
True, I haven't read these critics, but I have read some Marx and some history. Note that we are saying "She came from a middle-class milling and farming family ..." and referring the period before 1706. Here are a few references:
1)Davidoff, Leonore; Hall, Catherine (1991), Family Fortunes: Men and Women of the English Middle Class, 1780-1850, Chicago and London: University of Chicago Press. Pp. 576, ISBN 0226137333 Quote from book: "What was the English Middle Class? The provincial middle class took shape during the turbulent decades of late-eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries."
2)Briggs, Asa (2009), "Britain, 1815–1914", Encyclopaedia Britannica Quote:"The term middle classes began to be used more frequently in social and political debate. So too were working class and classes."
3) OED First use of expression, "Middle class" 1745 J. BRADSHAW Scheme to prevent running Irish Wools to France "The lower and middle Class of their People appear'd at that time, well dress'd in ..."
4)Daniel Defoe, writing after the time we are referring to, distinguished six classes: "1. The great, who live profusely, 2. The rich, who live plentifully, 3. The middle sort, who live well., 4. The working trades, who labour hard, but feel no want, 5. The country people, farmers etc., who fare indifferently, 6. The poor, who fare hard." In which class would Defoe put a bookseller or miller/farmer? Doesn't seem to be the "middle sort."
5)Finally Marx and Engels, themselves, usually reserve the term "middle-class" for the industrial age. However, they sometimes do use "manufacturing middle classes" to describe the mercantile guilds of early capitalism. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:48, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • For an example that Fowler doesn't understand grammar - "The (grammatical) subject of the sentence changes from Samuel J. in the first half to Michael J. in the second." Actually, the subject of the sentence is "It" and part of "what happened" or just "happened". This is something -very- obvious and the fact that he believed that Johnson was the subject of the first clause shows that he does not understand what a "subject" actually is. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:34, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
True, I made a mistake, but pointing it out doesn't make your sentence any less ambiguous. The two sentences are: "... Samuel Johnson often claimed that he grew up in poverty. It is uncertain what happened between the marriage of his parents and Samuel's birth three years later to provoke a decline in the family's fortunes, but Michael Johnson quickly became overwhelmed with debt from which he was never able to recover." What do we mean by "his?" If we are using "his" to refer to Samuel Johnson already mentioned in the previous sentence, then why are we saying "Samuel's birth" next and not "his birth?" In other words, it is much less ambiguous if we say, "... Samuel Johnson often claimed that he grew up in poverty. It is uncertain what happened between the wedding of his parents and his own birth three years later to cause a reversal of family fortune, but his father quickly became overwhelmed with irreversible debt." Note too that you've responded to only one or two points; there are several others. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:48, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Middle class simply means "skilled working class" - merchants, skilled laborers, lawyers, etc. It comes from a source. The basic definition is standard English knowledge. The source only verifies its legitimacy of use. The first should have kept you from claiming that it was inappropriate, and the second verifying that. I don't need to respond to -any- of your points because they are all equally absurd. "your sentence any less ambiguous" It really does. "It" is right at the beginning. There is no hidden subject. The first sentence states that there was an event, the second sentence states a response to that event. This is obvious from context. Are you even a native English speaker? I highly suspect that you are not, especially with your interest in Indian articles. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:13, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What does interest in the history of early-modern- and colonial India have anything to do with not being a native English speaker? There are many people in the former group: Christopher Bayly, Eric Stokes, Judith Brown, Sanjay Subrahmanyam, Barbara Metcalf, Muzaffar Alam, ..., are just a few. Some are native English speakers and some are likely not, but all write superb English prose. Besides South Asia itself has many native (or near-native) English speakers, a direct result of over 200 years of British rule. The novels of Salman Rushdie and Arundhati Roy are but two examples of the burgeoning corpus of Indian English literature. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:44, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You've used incorrect terminology for grammar, switched things around, made staunch claims about what is proper when there is no strict rule, and your strong interest in Indian articles and terminology suggests that you speak Hindi or some related language. Now, we all know that grammar in England is different than Grammar in the United States. It is even more so between Indian grammar and the rest because of the influence of native languages. It would explain why you are so adamant about things that are incorrect or not important. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:54, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fowler&fowler Post4 (Examples of poor prose from Early Works section)
I believe you mean "career" with one "r", and no "or" about it. This is a British page and deals only with British spelling and usage. Mould is proper because it is the act of setting within a physical mould. Launch isn't even close to appropriate, especially if you have read the page. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
... but a search for "mould * into a career" (* is the generic blank) among authors of books turns up quite empty.  :( This is not the case for the expression "launched * into a career". Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Google books has nothing to do with standard diction nor is it acceptable means to find out what standard diction is. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Again, you can mould/mold an avocation into a vocation (or career), but you can't mould a person into a career. If you don't like Google Books, which search only among the published authors in the English language, why don't we search in Google Scholar or even the plain old Google web? ... but a search among all scholars for the expression "mould * into a career" too turns up quite emptly.  :( ... but a search among all 1 billion English speaking denizens of the planet only three use the expression "mould * into a career". Of these three, two are talking about moulding a hobby or research into a career (as I have already alluded to above); the third, who does talk about moulding a person into a career, is none other than Mr. Ottava Rima, ... Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument doesn't even have logic. People can be moulded into anything. You have no ability to prove that wrong, so you substitute that by putting up a bunch of empty words. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:11, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Then you haven't had enough experience with English language usage. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
... but the Google search for the "biographical career" of some eminent biographers turns up quite empty. :( Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:31, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, google search is not an acceptable tool for finding "standard diction" or diction patterns.
Nope. The work is a portrayal and if you bother to do research you would see how it portrays insights. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
..., but no author in the English language seems to be using the expression "portraying insights into".  :( Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Google books doesn't contain anything even close to claim "no author" anything. The fact that you relied on it for a third time is only indicative of the general problems with your responses as a whole. Now, I will call you a liar. Why? Because of this. A result of the phrase "portraying insights". Next time, don't try to selectively search and hide from the real results. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Pardon me, weren't we talking about the expression "portraying insights into?" I can certainly say, "The author has been portraying insights associated with the School of Cacophony as those of a demoralized fringe." This is more or less what the sole (i.e. one, unitary, or single) link in your "this" is saying ...  :( Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but the phrase is "portraying insights". If you knew anything about grammar, you know that -into- is part of a different phrase. However, your constant abuse of grammar rules and of the English language suggests that you don't care. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:11, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Key word "immediate". Also, you ignored that it is "fame and income" and that the small income came "at an opportune time in his life". Ottava Rima (talk) 02:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
..., but no author in the English language seems to be using the expression "welcome small income".  :( Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And yet you searched on a phrase that you didn't complain about. Odd how you do that. The fact that you would even suggest that someone else would have to use the phrase is absurd. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Pardon me for pointing out that you made one more boo boo in that sentence. Please accept my apologies. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No "boo boo"s exist. Its just you dodging from being wrong by throwing out more empty language to distract from your own flaws. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:11, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No. Works takes priority over life. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
..., but none of the other 1 billion English-speaking denizens of the planet have used the expression "early works and early life".  :( Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No one said "It was the best of times" along with "It was the worst of times" before Dickens, and yet he managed to say it. Come up with a real argument. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No. Scholars and Johnson scholars are two different things. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have more time right now, but I have taken a quick look through the section. Each and every sentence is either chock-full of errors or plain old clumsy. That is unacceptable in a Featured Article. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:09, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PS The evidence mounts that no author of books written in the English language seems to be using Mr. Rima's mellifluence-free expressions. Could Mr. Rima be guilty of practicing "original cacophony?" Do we want OC on the Wikipedia main page? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh no! Not using English in a way that follows rules but might not be duplicated in google books! Heaven forbid! The fact that you were upset at "early works" being joined with an "and" to "early life" is troubling in the very list. You can't provide one book to verify that such is improper. The fact that you said "no one" says the phrase without searching through the over 800 results to see if it comes up only verifies that you are putting forth a sham argument. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh no no Mr Rima! There are indeed no authors of books written in the English language who use your exact expression, "early works and early life," (see top of the link); the 800 links you allude to are to authors who use the expressions "early life" and "early works" separately somewhere in their book. What's the big deal in that? I suggest that you not carry on this discussion in order to just have the last word. You make yourself look less and less credible. However, since I don't believe that you will actually stop, let me state that this is my final reply to your increasingly random musings. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
See, here's exactly why your complaint and any complaint here on Wikipedia by you are pure nonsense. You don't understand that "and" connects two groups of words. "Early works" is a proper set of words. "Early life" is a proper set of words. Any set of words following this pattern is grammatically correct, just like I can say jungle gyms and kookaburras without it appearing anywhere else. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:11, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The line it is based on Lane's (the source) phrase "the first Johnson of note in the little town" (p. 11), "a respected book-seller" (p. 10) and later "Michael Johnson may not have been the first bookseller ever to trade in Lichfield, but he was the first to achieve respect and reputation" (p. 13). The quote is used to denote Lane's word but also the general sense that it is subjective and not objective. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:15, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I can't help but feel there's a better way to handle this sentence, but it is so trivial in what seems otherwise to be a high-quality article Fritzpoll (talk) 18:37, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support - issue resolved. Fritzpoll (talk) 18:49, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Peter Martin was used in part on the main Johnson page, but he offers no new details. He also admits his debt to Bate. The only difference between the two is in Martin's interpretation of a few people who Johnson knew or on some of Johnson's writing. Neither apply to this page but he is a good source for all of the other pages. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:52, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just a side note - read the bottom of the review: "Martin's response to his subject's actual work is neither lively nor personal: few people will be tempted to have a go at Johnson's admittedly forbidding writings after reading these blandly potted accounts of them. The adroit marshalling of evidence doesn't always make for vivid narrative, and the need to cram in everything that Boswell didn't know eats into the space left over for colour and anecdote." Bate's work has been praised for a very long time, has received multiple awards, and he is a much more famous critic than Martin. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:55, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Having cleared that up, and having reviewed the article, it appears to meet all the criteria, so I support the nomination. - Biruitorul Talk 00:08, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Three biographies that went into the section state Tourette Syndrome, apply medical analysis, and draw conclusions. If necessary, I can provide scans of these pages, as the issue came up during the Samuel Johnson FAC. The Pearce source is by a well known research of Tourette Syndrome and also wrote a paper on Johnson's case. More information on what is said on that can be found at Samuel Johnson's health#Tourette syndrome]] to verify what is stated there (it contains more details and direct quotes to show that it isn't synthesis). But yes, Johnson's case has come up in at least three major biographies (that I have, and a fourth according to an article in the NY Times of a new one but one I refuse to buy because it is uncritical), a handful of newspaper articles, and a few medical journal articles. Many of the sources used were either directly talking about Johnson or used by those directly talking about Johnson. I hope that explains the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:05, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t doubt the sources state exactly what the section says they do. The problem comes with the presentation. The paragraph begins with Johnson's initial exhibiting of the tics that characterised his TS. It then provides context with information about how TS develops in childhood. This is OK to a point, as TS "follows a fairly reliable course in terms of the age of onset and the history of the severity of symptoms". However, the paragraph then goes on to state that "environmental, infectious, or psychosocial factors and [complications in labour]... can influence the severity of the disorder." This is cited to sources that do not appear to discuss Johnson specifically; they're speaking about TS in general terms, and there is therefore no guarantee that the sources are relevant to how Johnson's TS developed—none of the Johnson-specific sources are used at this point. Because the rest of the section does detail Johnson's troubled childhood (illnesses, environment, difficult birth), it implies a link that I'm not sure has been made by the Johnson sources. If any of them do make the link, then we should too, instead of leaving it a vague implication. Steve T • C 16:29, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If the off topic sources are used by other sources used, then off topic sources are perfectly acceptable for context. Let me make it more clear - biographer says "Johnson had tics which probably did this" followed by a footnote. The footnote refers to page __ of book ___ which shows that. Quoting from that study the pertinent section is not synthesis. Synthesis is creating a -new- argument and only a -new- argument. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And please provide where the links aren't made, because they are rather clear on who says what. I need to figure out which lines you are having problems with. The link above to the Pearce quote alone verifies that Pearce contains the basis for all of the information regardless of what the other sources say, so I don't really see how anything could be deemed synthesis. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I know I'm sometimes less than clear. You should have seen my original reply before I trimmed it down: thrice as long and containing several unnecessary digressions. I'll boil it down:
  • I don't have a problem with any individual fact used in the section; it's all well-cited.
  • Pearce details Johnson's childhood ailments.
  • Two non-Johnson sources say how childhood ailments can (not "do") influence the severity of TS.
  • Neither those or Pearce say Johnson's childhood ailments influenced the severity of his TS.
  • The section implies such an influence.
If you're saying that Pearce also explicitly links Johnson's childhood ailments with the severity of his TS, then that's great and I'll happily strike my oppose if it's made clearer in the section. Steve T • C 08:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I said I was not going to make an issue of it, and I am not going to contest anything. I am merely pointing out some generalities, that a publishing house does not guarantee the relevance of information to an article etc. etc. Those things I pointed out are true and should not be used in arguments to refute. Also, as you know, the author is required to produce sources for contested information, not the opposite. The editor who questions is not required to prove a negative. And, as far as I know, these sources are summarizing studies and opinions, not "medical research" into Johnson's physical status. Medical research is published in reputable medical journals, and per WP:MEDRS should be recent, preferably not from the last century.—Mattisse (Talk) 23:01, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
←Ottava, you seem to have been under the impression that I'm questioning the posthumous diagnosis of TS, how Johnson's TS manifested in childhood, or both. I'm really not. The only sentence I had issue with was, "Studies suggest that non-genetic, environmental, infectious, or psychosocial factors and perinatal events, such as obstetric complications—while not causing Tourette's—can influence the severity of the disorder." This is fine in isolation, but—coupled with the surrounding statements from completely separate sources that Johnson suffered from various childhood illnesses—implied a cause and effect that was not supported by the citations as presented. If I haven't been clear on that, I apologise. There was no need to spend two hours transcribing various sources, though the effort to resolve the issue is appreciated. All that the article really required was a citation that unequivocally placed a cause and effect between Johnson's childhood physical illnesses and the initial manifesting of his TS; this would bridge the gap between the two and rid the section of the appearance of synthesis. Thankfully, that is provided by Martin, Samuel Johnson: A Biography 2008. p. 94 - referring to Johnson's bout of scrofula, "As a result of physical illness he began to show signs of the 'tics and gesticulations' that stayed with him for the rest of his life." If this is included and the surrounding text altered to more accurately accommodate what it says, that should be enough to address my concern. On a related note, I agree with comments made elsewhere that some of the fine detail about TS is not strictly necessary. In particular, the two sentences featuring OCD seem a little out of place. Perhaps the paragraph could read:

During this time, Johnson started to exhibit the tics that influenced how people viewed him in his later years;[4] these formed the basis for his posthumous diagnosis of Tourette syndrome (TS).[5][6][7] TS develops in childhood;[5] it follows a fairly reliable course in terms of the age of onset and the history of the severity of symptoms. Tics may appear up to the age of eighteen, but the most typical age of onset is from five to seven.[8] Johnson's tics and gesticulations first manifested as a result of his childhood scrofula;[9][5][4] studies suggest that environmental and infectious factors—while not causing Tourette's—can affect the severity of the disorder.[10][11] Pearce describes that Johnson's mother had a "very difficult and dangerous labour",[6] and that Johnson had many illnesses throughout his life, "suffered from bouts of melancholy, crushing guilt, habitual insomnia, and he endured a morbid fear of loneliness and of dying", and was "disturbed by scruples of infidelity" from the age of 10.[6]

But this is a suggestion only; the important words are "as a result" or something equally definitive. I stand by registering the oppose because the source was needed here at this article; a reader should not be expected to look through other Wikipedia articles on Johnson to find it. Another suggestion I'd make is to move Pearce's description of Johnson's "difficult and dangerous labour" to the first paragraph of the section; it seems to fit better there. All the best, Steve T • C 21:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Struck oppose per this change. Good luck. Steve T • C 00:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support This is a well-researched and engaging article. It is well-written and poetic even in places. This is the standard of Wikipedia humanities FAs that I love to see. If only I could make my virus articles such a joy to read. Graham Colm Talk 21:51, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia should have a special category for "lackadaisical and indifferent masquerading as passionate support" (LIMPS). Imagine that luminous age when all you will need is: "LIMPS Modernist"! Imagine too the economy, that soul of wit, which, when summed over millions of Wikipedians, might yet save our planet from its excesses. Not to mention that brave new world teeming with FAs, all written in the wondrous experimental prose of "Samuel Johnson's early life" (especially the "Parents" and "Early Works" sections); so what if a few curmudgeons like F&f are calling it broken English. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC) Struck per Ceoil's request. My apologies to Modernist. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Flowler, you so out of order here; I know you are fustrated, but this is unfair. I suggest you strike or better remove you comment and apologise to Modernist, who is just caught in crossfire. Ceoil (talk) 20:31, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've certainly seen my share of sickly articles on FAC review, articles whose authors have the expectation that the FAC reviewers are "de facto peer reviewers" and will help fix the article on the spot. However, I've never seen a sickly article whose author blatantly insults reviewers. True, I made fun of Modernist above, but what really is the point of a one-line support vote? How does it help anyone? I mean, why even bother?
I do trust the opinion of some editors who have recently posted on the FAC talk page. Should any one of these, Malleus Fatuorum (listed as an almost-coauthor), Karanacs, and Tony1, be prepared to state that the prose in the two sections ("Parents" and "Early works") does meet the standards required of an FA, s/he will greatly assuage my concerns, and I will then cease challenging the unsupported supports in this FAC review. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Laser brain (talk) 20:19, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
1. They believed that the ritual would work. It was a common superstition. The operation itself? Unknown. Johnson never revealed much about it. Its unfortunate, though. I believe it was just lancing and cutting pieces of flesh off his face. Source? None that I can find. 2. Well, the act of giving birth did put financial strain. But yeah, having another mouth to feed is the real item here. Changed to split the sentences. 3. Rewrote a little. 4. Johnson didn't have to pay for books that he needed for college. I changed "take" to "borrow" to remove any chance that selling of the books was involved. 5. Done. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:19, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't notice when that was slipped in. I'm surprised someone asked because it stated "after 6 months" immediately before. I assume Ottre added it. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:21, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:05, 4 April 2009 [89].

Tree Sparrow

[edit]
Nominator(s): jimfbleak (talk) 07:24, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This has been a long time in gestation, but I think it's ready now jimfbleak (talk) 07:24, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • What's IAR please?
WP:IAR or Ignore all rules. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:04, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, makes sense now (: jimfbleak (talk) 16:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Disambiguation links are up to standards as checked with the links checker tool.
  • There is one external link that is dead, I'm not sure whether this is the one Ealdgyth was referring to.
  • None dead for me, but removed IBC since misdirected jimfbleak (talk)
  • The following WP:REFNAME is used more than once to name a ref; a ref name should only name 1 specific ref.
Kelly A. Lee; Lynn B. Martin II; Martin C. Wikelski
Peter Shurulinkov and Vassil Golemansky
Peter Puchala
Sandro Bertolino; Elena Ghiberti; Aurelio Perrone
Peter Berthold
Ján Obuch; Anton Kristin
M. Shao; T. Hounsome; N. Liu
David Costantini; Stefania Casagrande; Giuseppe Di Lieto; Alberto Fanfani; Giacomo Dell’Omo
Firsfron of Ronchester 23:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Jim. I appreciate the fixes. I'll be going through the article in the next couple of days. Firsfron of Ronchester 00:26, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Apparent contradiction. Compare In Australia, it is found in some rural and semi-rural districts, but not cities with what the first sentence two paragraphs up: In Australia, the Tree Sparrow is present in Melbourne. 3.8 million people is definitely a city by anyone's definition. Firsfron of Ronchester 00:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, misrepresented source, now reads - In Australia, the Tree Sparrow is largely an urban bird, and it is the House Sparrow which utilises more natural habitats. jimfbleak (talk) 06:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Some confusion here: Although initially successful, the "great sparrow campaign" had overlooked the numbers of locusts and other insect pests consumed by the birds, and crop yields fell, exacerbating a famine which led to the deaths of 30 million people between 1959 and 1961. The Tree Sparrow can have other beneficial effects on agriculture. Firsfron of Ronchester 00:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I can see that the death of 30 million people is a dubious benefit! Now reads - The Tree Sparrow's consumption of insects has led to its use in agriculture to control fruit tree pests and the common asparagus beetle... jimfbleak (talk) 06:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - My concerns and observations have been fully addressed. If the potential problems listed below can be fixed, there's no reason the inaptly named Passer montanus shouldn't be a Featured Article. Firsfron of Ronchester 03:52, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the careful review and support jimfbleak (talk) 06:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - When I was a boy, my garden was full of these delightful little birds, but sadly no longer. Which brings me to just one small nit-pick, the Tree Sparrow's extensive range and large population mean that it is not endangered globally, I don't like "mean that" very much. How about "ensure" that? Well done. Graham Colm Talk 18:29, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Graham, change made - we had the first one for 20 years this winter! jimfbleak (talk) 06:15, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - (moral only due to WP:COI via WP:BIRD membership) have looked over this article several times and think a few sentences can be simplified/shortened. This one This sparrow is distinctive even within its genus in that, unlike its relatives, it has no plumage differences between the sexes; is a candidate with several its and probably can do without the need to inform that reader that species within a genus are related. Shyamal (talk) 06:58, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Shyamal, good suggestion. I've fixed that one, I'll see if any other surplus words can be removed jimfbleak (talk) 11:58, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Support - (probably moral only due to WP:COI via WP:BIRD membership) I have read this before and suggested some tweaks, but I think it is at the stage (for me) where any further changes are so minor and equivocal in their imporvement as not to be worth mentioning (and I forgot what they were as I have been delayed by a dodgy internet connection). I think it is over the line in terms of prose, comprehensiveness. referencing etc. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:24, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nitpicks
added. although I'm not fully convinced since it's just a redirect to sparrow
changed to Micronesia, I overgeneralised jimfbleak (talk) 06:36, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's what the source said, but you're obviously right, fixed jimfbleak (talk) 06:36, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's what iucn say, but I agree that it's suspect, and why Africa for a Eurasian species? I've chopped that bit jimfbleak (talk) 06:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Overall this is good, I'll give it another read soon. Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not clear what you are saying about the Tree sparrow in North America. Are you saying, by implication ("15,000" isn't that many, if they started multiplying in 1870) that they are clustered around St. Louis and neighbouring parts, and sparse elsewhere? Or are they found in fair numbers "in parks, farms, and rural woods", which actually covers most of the United States and Canada? —Mattisse (Talk) 01:08, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Unlike the House Sparrow, they have never really broken out of the original area. rephrased for clarity as Within its limited US range, the Tree Sparrow has to compete ... jimfbleak (talk) 07:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review as follow:

Answering since that image was flipped by me and feel that Tree Sparrows show much greater bilateral symmetry (unlike Wrybills) than human faces and think that the MOS deals more with human portrait flips. Shyamal (talk) 06:36, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Shyamal, just looks odd facing out jimfbleak (talk) 06:51, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, per MOS:IMAGES, the caption should point out to the reader that such images have been altered. Jappalang (talk) 07:42, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've done that with a link to the original jimfbleak (talk) 10:31, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As above jimfbleak (talk) 06:51, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed as with previous jimfbleak (talk) 10:31, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Added to image page; I didn't put in in originally since I noticed some other maps seemed to omit the balnk map details jimfbleak (talk) 07:04, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Is that something we do at all on Wikipedia? I've never noticed credits in the caption before. Sabine's Sunbird talk 02:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, some articles have them for certain images. For example, check out Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima, particularly File:WW2 Iwo Jima flag raising.jpg (to be fair, this is a copyrighted photo). Jappalang (talk) 03:27, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have seen discussions on commons resulting in the deletion of images if such conditions are being imposed against the concept of "freedom". Shyamal (talk) 06:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
When this has come up before, it's been considered that attribution on the image page meets this request jimfbleak (talk) 06:51, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
excellent, image changed jimfbleak (talk) 06:52, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The rest of the images are verifiably in public domain or released under appropriate licenses. Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 02:30, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for the image review, your concerns are fixed now I hope. MoS for images really needs rationalising. If you don't reverse images, you're told they should be facing in, if you do reverse, you shouldn't have done it just to have them facing in... (: Ah well, such is life... jimfbleak (talk) 10:37, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No problems. As for the MOS, I read it as stating that the "facing text" and "alternation" are desirable characteristics; they should be strived for unless some restrictions (e.g. Infobox placement, no casual "flipping" of image, possible misrepresentation of subject, etc) prevent such an arrangement. Such are the problems with aesthetics, I suppose... Jappalang (talk) 11:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:05, 4 April 2009 [90].

Manchester Mummy

[edit]
Nominator(s): Malleus Fatuorum 04:52, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A short but I believe nevertheless comprehensive account of the events following the death of Hannah Beswick, a woman whose pathological fear of premature burial led to her mummified body being put on public display in 19th-century Manchester. Please be kind to dear Hannah. Malleus Fatuorum 04:52, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I look forward to supporting. –Juliancolton | Talk 05:16, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. --Malleus Fatuorum 05:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Sasata

Thanks for your comments. One of the significant difficulties with this article has been in sifting through "the innacuracies and contradictions" of the events following Beswick's death, propagated on all sorts of cooky web sites. Hard facts have been pretty hard to come by, and I really do believe that this article summarises pretty much all that can be verified about those events. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:46, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support I believe you, I tried looking for more info on some historical academic databases I have access to but came up short. Nice article. Sasata (talk) 03:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • The following ref (code pasted below) is duplicated and appears more than once in the ref section, use a WP:REFNAME instead.

Support - I read this fascinating, short article the other day, but I forgot to comment. This could have been merely anecdotal, but it is an engaging, concise, well-written and researched article. Graham Colm Talk 18:39, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: corrected some incorrect stuff on the two public domain images, both are okay now. Jappalang (talk) 01:50, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support -this article is fascinating and well written. 195.188.23.230 (talk) 09:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support great article! 123abcdoreme3 (talk) 17:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:05, 4 April 2009 [92].

Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell

[edit]
Nominator(s): Awadewit (talk) 18:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My first article on a contemporary book - of course, that book is about the early nineteenth century and written in the style of that time (I just couldn't bring myself to leave Jane Austen et. al. entirely). A note on the lengthy plot summary - the novel is 800 pages long and the length of the plot summary is in line with others (see here for a lengthy comparison with other FA plot summaries). Thanks to my peer reviewers for their detailed and helpful suggestions and to Ealdgyth for advising me on the use of sources here. Awadewit (talk) 18:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I dont know if free is licencing is possible, I think it is borderline. It could upload it to commons, and see if it is deleted it or not? WP unfortunetly doesnt have a forum for this question, commons are where the experts are Fasach Nua (talk) 16:31, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apparently it is subject to copyright. I have now put the Commons image up for deletion. The image in the article is still the fair use version, so the Wikipedia article is stable. Awadewit (talk) 19:03, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1) I've changed the sentence regarding Hampton. Awadewit (talk) 17:56, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2) There are two reasons I chose not include that part of the plot: 1) We would have to explain that Segundus was exempted from that contract, thus necessitating a digression on a rather minor plot points. 2) Most of these magicians (with the exception of Honeyfoot and Segundus) do not return later in the novel, so I felt that explaining their circumstances was not vital. While the event does show Norrell's desire to keep magic for himself, I tried to show this later when I explained that he took on Strange as a pupil but refused to teach him all he, Norrell, knew. What are your thoughts on this? Awadewit (talk) 17:56, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But the plot summary doesn't mention anything that would necessitate mentioning that Segundus was exempted. It feels thematically important somehow (the opposite of the democratisation of magic at the end); but maybe themes don't matter in a plot summary, and I see that Clarke has given you difficulties enough there with her "gentleman with thistledown hair". N p holmes (talk) 06:17, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Segundus is a major character in the novel because he doesn't sign the contract, though. Thus, in mentioning the contract, we would have to mention Segundus's decision. I agree that it would be nice to mention this point to emphasize the "elite" vs. "democratic" strains in the novel, but the plot summary section is generally more about the events of the novel than the themes. I was hoping that the "Themes" section would be a supplement to the "Plot" section, rather than a repetition of it. My greatest worry regarding the plot summary is that someone who has not read the book will not be able to follow it. Awadewit (talk) 19:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Plot vol. I. "...Mr Norrell, who moves to London to revive practical English magic." This is indeed his stated goal, but I'm not sure it brings across his controlling nature adequately. He's not really interested in sharing his knowledge, and he works to suppress knowledge and discourage would-be magicians. Can we add some mention of this aspect of his personality?
Do you think adding a sentence about his library and his desire to keep all books of magic to himself would be good? Perhaps this could be added somewhere at the beginning of the "Vol. 1" section? Awadewit (talk) 18:17, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think that would work fine. Kafka Liz (talk) 19:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Now reads: The group is stunned to learn of a "practising magician", Mr Gilbert Norrell, who owns a large collection of "books of magic"; he has spent years purchasing these books in order to keep them out of the hands of others. Awadewit (talk) 04:50, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I combined the clauses into a single sentence (feel free to revert if you feel it doesn't work), but I'm satisfied on this point. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 00:49, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"...rarely speaking and verging on incoherence when she does." I think this possibly needs a touch of clarification. As worded it sounds as though she's speaking gobbledegook or is incapable of completing her sentences.
I had a very hard time writing his part. What happens, of course, is that she tells one story when she means to tell another, which appears as non-sequiturs as to the other characters. Could you suggest a rewording? Awadewit (talk) 18:17, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What about "Emma (now Lady Pole) lapses into lassitude. She rarely speaks, and her attempts to communicate her situation are confounded by magic."? I can try to word this more specifically, but it conveys the fact that she's under a spell that prevents her from communicating. Maybe that's all we need here? It's not the easiest thing to sum up accurately, I'm finding. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:47, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine with me - I've altered the article. It is quite difficult to explain concisely, isn't? Awadewit (talk) 01:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You know it. I came up with at least half a dozen short and not-so-short explanations, and they all sounded terrible. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Plot vol. III. "Eternal Night" - I think there should be a brief explanation as what precisely this entails.
I've described it as an "an eerie darkness that engulfs him and follows him wherever he goes". Awadewit (talk) 18:17, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That works. Kafka Liz (talk) 20:30, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"In England, there is a magical renaissance." Why?
Do you think I should say "In England, there is a magical renaissance, as John Uskglass returns, unbeknownst to the characters in the novel."? Hm. The thing is that this renaissance confuses Strange and Norrell - do you think we should explicitly explain it in the plot summary? Awadewit (talk) 18:17, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we need to be overly explicit, but we should make some explanation, even if it's brief. What about something along the lines of "In England, the return of John Uskglass sparks a magical Renaissance; Strange and Norrell fail to grasp its significance, despite their knowledge of magic."
"Strange and Norrell remain bound together..." Why? How and when did this happen?
I've rewritten the ending: Strange asks Norrell to help him undo Arabella's enchantment by summoning John Uskglass. Although they initially believe that they have succeeded, they later come to believe that their contact with John Uskglass was accidental; as a result of their magics, Strange and Norrell remain bound together—they cannot leave the "Eternal Night" or each other. They do succeed in sending Arabella to Padua, where Flora is waiting for her. After the spells of the gentleman with thistle-down hair are broken, Stephen becomes the king of the Faerie domain, Lost-Hope. Awadewit (talk) 18:17, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need to clarify how Norrell wound up in the darkness in the first place. Otherwise, I think we're done. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:52, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Genre. "To create this effect, the novel includes many references..." Is there a way to avoid the repetition of the phrase "such as" in this sentence?
  • Historical otherness. "...like Lady Pole, Stephen is silenced." Might it be worth pointing out that both characters are silenced in the same way literally as well as metaphorically?
Overall, a solid article. Excellent work. Kafka Liz (talk) 16:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 18:17, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've struck a couple of the completed items above; still working over a couple of the others. There are a couple of passages I'd like to reread to refresh my memory, and I seem to have left the book in my desk at work. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Marvellous to see such a thorough article on a recent novel. Awadewit has grappled valiantly and fastidiously (she will not go beyond her sources, even though she could probably write a better review of the book than most of the reviewers she cites) with the task of compiling an accurate article from the news information available to her. All kudos. I made my comments at the Peer Review, and the article has improved since then. The only thing I would suggest, reading the additions, is that "George Rowlandson" should probably be Thomas Rowlandson. qp10qp (talk) 18:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh, I know! Unfortunately, the source actually has "George Rowlandson"! Am I allowed to correct that? Pretty please? Awadewit (talk) 18:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think so, because if the source already spoke of "important nineteenth-century illustrators", there is your get out (because there is no important nineteenth-century illustrator called George Rowlandson). You could cover this in a note. It looks to me like it must be a typing error, on the heels of "George Cruikshank", so perhaps Clute would thank you. qp10qp (talk) 18:40, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done - I'm so relieved! Awadewit (talk) 00:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Articles can only be as good as their sources. The sources for this article are terrible. Book reviewers do not take the time to carefully analyze the novel, I'm afraid; they only offer facile conclusions. However, as of this time, there is only one academic article on Jonathan Strange. The question has repeatedly been raised at FAC whether we should promote articles when the sources themselves do not make for a good article. The answer has always been "yes". I offer this article as yet another test case of whether we should question that answer. Awadewit (talk) 19:53, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:05, 4 April 2009 [93].

Battle of Tippecanoe

[edit]
Nominator(s): Charles Edward (Talk) 17:52, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

After several weeks of editing and research, a GA review and an A class review, I believe this article is now worthy of Featured status. I appreciate any feedback. Thanks! Charles Edward (Talk) 17:52, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Some refs use more than 1 page to source, so instead of p. 6-7, it should be pp. 6-7
  • The following refs (code pasted below) are duplicated and appear in the ref section more than once, a WP:REFNAME should be used instead
  • The source is: Funk, Arville L (©1969, revised 1983). A Sketchbook of Indiana History. Rochester, Indiana: Christian Book Press, pages 27 & 28. It was on the page already, just in the incorrect spot. I have moved it. Charles Edward (Talk) 19:43, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it possible to replace instances of "Indian" with the specific tribe name? If not, should not "Indian" be replaced with "Native American"? I noticed that the term is occasionally used in the article.
  • Sometimes Tenskwatawa is referred to as the "Prophet" and sometimes as "Tenskwatawa" - could this be standardized to avoid confusion? I would suggest using "Tenskwatawa", as that is his name.

I look forward to supporting this article soon. Awadewit (talk) 18:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are right about lack of sources. I was unable to find anything written within the last 75 years that was dedicated to the battle. Most of the sourcing came from the three books you see in the article, each of them with a few pages worth of information on the battle. Langguth puts in in context with the larger war of 1812, Owens puts it in context of Harrison's life, and Funk is written from the perspective of the American soldiers and gives the best step by step description of the battle. Charles Edward (Talk) 18:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to full support. Awadewit (talk) 18:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have addressed the specific concerns you have listed, and would be glad to expand referencing wherever you believe it may be lacking. The info in the paragraphs are all from the citations listed at the end of each paragraph, I have tried to place them also at positions required by guidelines. To move them to specific statements would take me a few minutes to look at which book the info was from, but for the most parts the paragraphs are a blending of all three sources. Charles Edward (Talk) 17:36, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ Mayer, James (May 3, 1991). "Metro Council passes $228.3 million budget". The Oregonian.
  2. ^ "Forest Park Connections". Metro (Oregon regional government). 2009. Retrieved April 12, 2009.
  3. ^ Castro-Tirado 1998
  4. ^ a b Demaria 1994, pp. 5–6
  5. ^ a b c Murray 1979
  6. ^ a b c Pearce 1994
  7. ^ Stern 2005
  8. ^ Leckman 2006
  9. ^ Martin 2008, p.  94
  10. ^ Zinner 2000
  11. ^ Santangelo 1994
More