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RfC: RFE/RL

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is consensus that additional considerations apply (option 2) to the use of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty. As there is a consensus that additional considerations apply, there is no consensus that RFE/RL is generally reliable (option 1).

First, there is broad consensus that CIA-period RFE/RL should be used cautiously, if at all. Even editors supporting option 1 conceded this point.

Second, there is rough consensus that RFE/RL may be biased in some subject areas (particularly through omission of relevant, countervailing facts), and in those areas, it should be attributed in the article body. The argument for attribution went largely unrefuted by editors advocating for option 1, who generally focused on the reliability of the source and their disfavor of deprecation (option 4).

However, there is no consensus as to what subject areas require attribution. For example, some editors noted that RFE/RL is usually generally reliable in the Russia/Ukraine context. Other editors pointed out that RFE/RL potentially had some editorial independence issues under the Trump administration. There was also some agreement that RFE/RL has shown some bias in reporting on Azerbaijan, and potentially in Central Asia. (Note: The preceding points did not gain consensus; they are merely provided as examples of some subject areas where attribution might be required). The scope of topics requiring attribution of RFE/RL will need to be decided on a case-by-case basis through the usual course of discussion on article talk and at RSN, as well as through subsequent RfCs as necessary.

There is also consensus not to deprecate RFE/RL. Deprecation is a blunt instrument and ought to be used sparingly. The case for deprecation rested on RFE/RL (1)  being a propaganda broadcaster (particularly during the mid-20th century when it was affiliated with the CIA), (2) lacking editorial independence, and (3) exhibiting bias in particular subject areas.

The first and second points were successfully rebutted by two responses that gained support among editors in the discussion. First, there is no evidence that RFE/RL continues to operate in the manner that it did from the 1950s-70s. Second, the evidence presented in the discussion cuts the other way because it shows increasing editorial independence and internal criticism/reflection. There was a rough consensus that the third point was irrelevant because bias is distinct from reliability.

I will add an entry for this source at RS/PS. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)


Is the U.S. Government agency "RFE/RL" (AKA "Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty"):

Chetsford (talk) 11:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Survey (RFE/RL)

a. RFE/RL has a documented history of broadcasting lies, rumors, and conspiracy theories
From 1950 to 1971, RFE/RL disseminated overt lies to its audience about something as basic as the identity of its editor. That year, an expose revealed that editorial decisions at RFE/RL were being secretly made by the CIA, something RFE/RL falsely denied over a period of decades [1].
  • Penn professor Kristen Ghodsee writes in The Baffler that - well after the CIA had divested itself of RFE/RL - executives continued managing the outlet to advance "a new genre of psychological and political warfare", that the outlet trafficked in antisemitic conspiracy theories, and reported "unsubstantiated rumors as fact". [2]
b. RFE/RL has a documented history of intimidating -- up to and including firing -- its own staff to ensure reportage aligns with U.S. global ambitions
  • In 2023, Blankspot reported that multiple RFE/RL "journalists" who reported critically on Azerbaijan were fired during a period the U.S. was cozying up to the Azerbaijani government. [3]
  • Also that year, Arzu Geybullayeva, in her blog, explained that her conversations with RFE/RL journalists found that they faced "systematic harassment" from management if they veered from the U.S. foreign policy line. [4]
  • In 2018, the entire staff of the RFE/RL station in the Republic of Georgia protested the firing of their director and asserted "growing intimidation, unfair treatment and attacks from RFE/RL management" over the topics and tone of their reporting.[5]
  • The GAO has documented that USAGM's own staff, generally -- including staff from RFE/RL, specifically -- have stated that management has meddled with editorial independence by taking "actions that did not align with USAGM’s firewall principles". [6]
c. RFE/RL is both objectively and subjectively non-WP:INDEPENDENT and has been described as "propaganda" by RS:
  • According to Jennifer Grygiel, a media studies scholar at Syracuse University, under U.S. federal law, "RFE/RL is required to support the U.S. government abroad". [7]
  • The objective fact of its structural non-independence has been subjectively confirmed by studies; an article in the scholarly journal UC Irvine Law Review in 2020 reported that RFE/RL operated by "not always address[ing] facts unfavorable to U.S. policy".[8]
  • In 2018, the New York Times implicitly described RFE/RL as propaganda, writing that it "used Facebook to target ads at United States citizens, in potential violation of longstanding laws meant to protect Americans from domestic propaganda" [9].
  • Magda Stroínska, scholar of linguistics at McMaster University, describes RFE/RL as "propaganda" in her 2023 book My Life in Propaganda: A Memoir About Language and Totalitarian Regimes (no online copy available).
  • As reported by the Wall Street Journal, a variety of sources have criticized RFE/RL for distributing "foreign propaganda favorable to authoritarian regimes in Central Asia".[10]
d. RFE/RL has no legal incentive to be accurate in its reporting on BLPs Under federal law, RFE/RL has the unique position of being absolutely "immune from civil liability". Even fully deprecated outlets like Gateway Pundit and Occupy Democrats have a pecuniary interest to get claims about living people roughly correct. RFE/RL, however, does not as it can never be sued.
e. RFE/RL is closely associated with deprecated outlets. RFE/RL is operated by the same controlling mind (U.S. Agency for Global Media) that oversees Radio y Television Marti, which has been deprecated by community consensus as a purveyor of falsehoods.
Chetsford (talk) 11:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
a. This material relates to a very long time ago. I don't think we consider it a reliable source for geopolitical topics during the Cold War.
b. There are a bunch of legitimately concerning issues raised here, which point to some management failures, both in the USAGM senior management during the Trump period and in specific national teams at various time limited periods. Without trivialising these, including the labour disputes and internal politics involved, I don't think these sources suggest reliability issues. It suggests the potential for bias, with the recent Azerbaijan case being most concerning, but even that article explicitly says Despite the criticism towards editor Ilkin Mamamdov, it’s worth noting that during his tenure, significant investigations have been published. For instance, the Azerbaijani team exposed corruption among high-ranking politicians in Azerbaijan.
c. These speak to bias not reliability. The tl;dr of the Conversation op ed is in the sub-heading: Major US outlets present mostly facts – that support American values It talks about the "firewall" eroding under Trump (the issue covered in b, but remaining mostly in place. The Irvine Law Review piece (same author) speaks about trustworthiness as a form of propaganda, i.e. building a reputation for honesty as a way of building soft power - again bias alongside reliability. Stroínska talks about listening to RFE while growing up, i.e. during the Cold War, so that's not relevant. The WSJ piece covers material on specific central Asian services under Trump that fits with the stuff in (b); in all of the cases the complaints (relating to bias not reliability) triggered action to correct them, so don't raise critical reliability issues.
d. This speaks to a theoretical issue rather than actual identified problems.
e. In previous RfCs, "association with deprecated outlets" has been dismissed as a factor. I think it's only significant if RFE is sourcing material from the deprecated outlet or using the same authors.
In short, a strong case for bias (especially at particular times for particular national services) but no reason to depart from general reliability. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
I say only with the most respect to X1, etc.'s opinions from previous discussions you cited, but referencing the opinions of people (myself included) who have registered free Wikipedia accounts as sources to establish a site's reliability may be less convincing than referencing the research of RS to establish a site's reliability. "RFE/RL is reliable because HomicidalOstrich1987 said it's reliable" is maybe not the equivalent of "RFE/RL is reliable because the New York Times said it's reliable." Chetsford (talk) 13:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
There are numerous examples, I've provided, of more recent editorial indiscretions - as recent as 2023 - taken by RFE/RL, such as firing journalists who report factual information that doesn't align with U.S. government policy and its 2016-renewed statutory mandate to support the U.S. Government. Insofar as the fact RFE/RL now says it's not secretly controlled by the CIA, it made the same claim over a period of 25 years. Why is its current claim more believable than its last claim (which was proved an elaborate lie that it falsely reported thousands of times over a period of decades)? What changed that allows us to now take what its says at face value, no questions asked? Chetsford (talk) 03:08, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims require extraordinary evidence, and you have provided none regarding RFE's current funding to back up your claim. - Amigao (talk) 14:07, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
As I specifically said, nothing anyone has produced has demonstrated that their reputation has changed, which would of course require similar WP:SECONDARY coverage specifically describing a change with a clear-cut line we could use; you assert that that article does not apply to its current form, implying that you believe there is a clear line, but obviously their own 990 Form is useless for establishing something like that. If its assurances that it has changed have been taken seriously - and have actually altered its reputation - you should be able to produce secondary sources proving that. The fact that you had to resort to their own 990 form to argue it via WP:OR using WP:INVOLVED primary sources implies that secondary sources establishing its reputation has improved do not, in fact, exist and that it is therefore still as unreliable at best and more likely an active source of misinformation. --Aquillion (talk) 12:57, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
I think this (linked below) might get me partial credit regarding your request FortunateSons (talk) 13:05, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
State Media Monitor is, itself, questionably RS and certainly not INDEPENDENT. It began as a project at CEU but is now the singular writing of a man named Marius Dragomir who is a former RFE/RL employee (and whose qualification to engage in media studies analysis includes a B.A. degree).
He is unquestionably wrong in his assertion it's "independent" since it is run by a single person who serves at the pleasure of the president of the day, unlike independent state broadcasters such as Deutsche Welle who are run by a multi-stakeholder board. Why he would make this clear error, one can only speculate. Chetsford (talk) 02:51, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Furthermore, I find the OP’s argument to be particularly unpersuasive. While I don’t doubt that there are more sources that could be used for this, the claims presented here appear to be a mixture of relevant, irrelevant, and cited to marginally reliable or unreliable sources. In addition, many of the arguments are not supported by the sources, particularly involving substantial overstatements of what the sources actually say, or missing substantial context from the same sources.
A non-exhaustive list
  • Point A bullet 1 is sourced to a long list of links to primary sources with little associated analysis. The claim that [pre-1972] editorial decisions at RFE/RL were being secretly made by the CIA is contradicted by the Radio Free Europe article, which states only that they received covert funds from the CIA during this period and that the CIA and US State Department “issued broad policy directives”, but that the policies were “determined through negotiation between them and RFE staff”. Regardless, as others have noted, this is more than 50 years ago and is irrelevant today.
  • In point A bullet 2, supposedly the source supports that executives continued managing the outlet to advance “a new genre of psychological and political warfare.” However, the source says that [one of the RFE directors] argued that the Radios should traffic in “a new genre of psychological and political warfare.” (emphasis added). In other words, it’s a statement about something that RFE was not doing at the time, and it’s about a single executive, not executives broadly. This is still a valid argument, but it is considerably weaker than the argument that is actually presented.
  • Point B bullet 2: the source is marked as unreliable by WP:UPSD.
  • Point B bullet 4: the source describes several instances in which firewall principles to preserve journalistic independence were not observed. It also documents the existence of those firewall principles and states that journalistic independence is in fact the policy.
  • Point C bullet 2: The claim that RFE does not always address facts unfavorable to U.S. policy does not logically support the broad conclusion that [t]he objective fact of its structural non-independence has been subjectively confirmed. (Also, what does it mean to appeal to subjective confirmation when arguing for an objective fact?) An argument can be made based on this source, as it discusses a concern (raised by the staff themselves), that a 2017 restructuring made them more susceptible to interference, but that is not the same thing. It does document interference, which is a valid criticism, saying that the policy of editorial independence was officially rescinded during the several months of Michael Pack’s tenure, but I would presume the policy is now reinstated given that the new CEO is one of the people who resigned at his appointment.
  • Point C bullet 3: Again, this does not logically follow. Laws are overbroad and catch unrelated conduct all the time. Describing the original purpose of a law does not imply that someone who may have violated it (and subsequently stopped the relevant conduct) was necessarily committing the type of action that the law was designed to prevent (let alone that it usually commits such actions, which is the implication from describing it as propaganda without qualification). Furthermore, the article implies that being state-funded is one of the relevant issues, which does not entail the organization being propaganda.
  • Point C bullet 5: According to the same source, the result of this was that RFE/RL said the Tajikistan service had "failed to live up to RFE/RL standards", and announced the resignations of both the Tajikstan branch director and the Central Asia regional director. In other words, it shows acknowledgement of error. It may be justified to consider specific regional RFE branches unreliable, such as this one (or the Azerbaijani one mentioned in one of the other points). It could also be justified to be more skeptical of branches of RFE/RL that appear to promote authoritarian regimes, but I doubt this is the majority of their overall content.
  • Point D: This statement is unsourced and I cannot find any secondary sources supporting it. Perhaps it is true, but when I narrow my search terms I get the text of specific laws such as this one that appear to discuss immunity only for the board of directors. While this could still be a relevant argument, I would presume the liability of the actual journalists to be the most important. It's certainly not the same thing as saying there is no legal incentive for the entire organization. On the other hand, perhaps it is a reference to sovereign immunity (assuming it both apples to RFE/RL and there is no relevant exception, neither of which I have information about), but then it would certainly not be in a unique position as it applies to every government agency, including highly reliable sources like the CDC.
RFE/RL has had instances or time periods of propagandizing, but e.g. they were also a key source of news during the Chernobyl disaster. They may also be one of a very small number of reliable news sources reporting from repressive countries, where at minimum they are likely to be more willing to report criticism that local sources cannot or will not publish. Sunrise (talk) 07:59, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
"a very small number of reliable news sources reporting from repressive countries, where at minimum they are likely to be more willing to report criticism" While that's certainly RFE/RL's boilerplate in its press releases and marketing brochures, independent sources disagree:
Reprise of evidence against
  • Wall Street Journal (2019): "Indicating the depth of concern, a group of academics who specialize in Central Asia wrote in a letter published in March on the Open Democracy website: “Radio Ozodi [RFE/RL Tajik bureau], once the most credible source of news and information in the country, has become a mouthpiece for the deeply corrupt authoritarian government of Tajikistan’s President, Emomali Rahmon.” [13]
  • Blankspot (2023): "After Azerbaijani journalist Turkhan Karimov was dismissed from his position as a reporter for Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty’s (RFE/RL) Azerbaijani branch Azadliq Radiosu (Free Radio), at least one person was hired who is accused of spreading Azerbaijani regime propaganda. The new recruit, Mammadsharif Alakhbarov, has worked as a reporter and producer for Azerbaijani regime media for the past 15 years... There, he has been an editor for films that glorify the war in Nagorno-Karabakh and praise President Ilham Aliyev ... In addition to reactions from journalists who have worked for Azadliq Radiosu, the Council of Europe’s media protection body, together with the European Federation of Journalists (EFJ), has also responded. On August 8th, they demanded answers from RFE/RL regarding the working conditions for journalists."
... among numerous other examples, etc. Chetsford (talk) 16:51, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
This reply is simply a repetition of two of the same examples from the original comment. I have already said my list is non-exhaustive, but these two are similarly unpersuasive:
Continued from previous list
  • Point 1 (point C bullet 5 in OP): I already commented on this in my previous reply (one of my bullet points was misnumbered, which I have now corrected). Beyond the points I already mentioned, an additional issue is that the source is prominently reporting criticism coming from the US State Department. In other words, in this example the alleged source of the bias and unwillingness to report criticism is actually working to address bias and ensure that critical material is reported. The quote provided here is presented as supplementary to the US government's role and is placed further down in the article. USAGM is also specifically described as an independent agency.
  • Point 2 (point B bullet 1 in OP): Instead of supporting the idea that independent sources disagree, this source directly supports the claim in question. Specifically, it says that RFE/RL is considered one of the most prominent sources of independent news in otherwise authoritarian countries like Azerbaijan. The source even specifically applies the statement to Azerbaijan, a country where the local branch is currently under substantial scrutiny for not being sufficiently critical. The source goes on to add concrete evidence, saying that Despite the criticism towards [the editor], it’s worth noting that during his tenure, significant investigations have been published. For instance, the Azerbaijani team exposed corruption among high-ranking politicians in Azerbaijan.
--Sunrise (talk) 01:39, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
Philosophically, this seems like a reasonable solution when attribution is crafted as "according to the U.S. Government's RFE/RL" as opposed to "according to RFE/RL". The very name "Radio Free Europe", presented without context, is violative of our NPOV policy, specifically WP:ADVOCACY, by falsely presenting this is (a) a European operation, (b) free of state influence. If Italy, under Mussolini, had a state-run news agency called "the Most Accurate Sources Available" it would be a little ridiculous if we simply weaved into WP "according to the Most Accurate Sources Available ..." anytime we referenced it. Chetsford (talk) 00:10, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
I would be inclined to agree here -- attributing something to "Radio Free Europe" is pretty misleading (one is inclined to suspect that this might have been part of the idea behind naming it that). jp×g🗯️ 01:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
"Are we going to deprecate NPR and the BBC now because they're state media too?" NPR and BBC have insulating, non-partisan governance boards. RFE/RL is run by a unitary political appointee. NPR and BBC don't have legal mandates to advance the cause of their host governments. RFE/RL does (as detailed in my !vote). NPR and BBC don't have a host of RS calling them propaganda and questioning their accuracy. RFE/RL does. Chetsford (talk) 03:19, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
I can see why some participants have !voted for option 2, but no one has explained sufficiently why it should be fully deprecated, a status that not even Xinhua and Anadolu Agency and Russia Today have. Of course one should scrutinize an article when it is in an area the US government has a vested interest in (WP:COMMONSENSE) or in some other areas identified above like Azerbaijan post-2023, but it seems generally reliable. Curbon7 (talk) 22:39, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Just to be objective, the quality of this source may depend on the country it covers, and even on specific program director. For example, Masha Gessen was terrible as a director of Russian program, even though she is a very good journalist. She was replaced by a much better director. My very best wishes (talk) 02:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
In its own words, its mission is to promote democratic values. Substitute another adjective, such as “conservative”, “progressive”, “socialist”, etc. and the issue should become clear (unless one ascribes magical or quasi-sacred symbolism to the ideal of democracy instead of merely viewing it soberly as a vehicle to guarantee human rights).
I don’t believe that an outward appearance of checking the boxes of “journalistic standards” is relevant here. That checklist was designed for independent media and designed to differentiate between e.g. The Guardian and The Daily Beast; using it as a yardstick is completely irrelevant when the source is ipso facto strongly biased, as here, when the entire purpose of the outlet is to further narratives. Having had a modicum of experience in an analogous sector regarding standards compliance, let me reiterate that not everything can be taken at face value.
In the remote corners of this encyclopedia, there still exist a number of articles and places containing statements from the 2000s that, if an editor made them today in favor of Russia or China, would result in a noticeboard discussion, and rightly so, A few such pages are on my low-priority list. There are surely others out there.
Cheers, RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 09:30, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Cone, Stacey (n.d.). "Presuming A Right to Deceive: Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty, the CIA, and the News Media". Journalism History. 24 (4): 148–156. doi:10.1080/00947679.1999.12062497. ISSN 0094-7679.

Discussion (RFE/RL)


  1. https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20221002-sergey-kiriyenko-so-called-viceroy-of-the-donbas-helped-launch-putin-s-career
  2. https://time.com/5444612/ukraine-kateryna-handziuk-acid-attack-protest/
  3. https://www.businessinsider.com/video-russia-soldiers-using-ukraine-pows-as-human-shields-report-2023-12
  4. https://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/worldreports/world.93/hsw.pdf
  5. https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/43964/flooding-in-azerbaijan
  6. https://www.nature.com/articles/345567b0.pdf
  7. https://kyivindependent.com/investigative-stories-from-ukraine-parliament-still-closed-to-journalists-raising-transparency-concerns/
  8. https://ca.news.yahoo.com/video-ukraine-appears-show-russians-121936734.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAApRwJTfaPCfSe5Cgh2IWJ-dgRMeHrWoUOu4emZZR8QMVYEcN17h_ZbyYfNdzj1nvaI8hdwjY8uXyaqwvMFQeiN-bYiJK1pV9D5vvPAK4ddxEN0GzQSM9UEIpRNqxxHzVcDLadz5R8JHYL2cR7bTcZaGxy_QAHnIiTYa-jMu9YMn (from insider)
  9. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/death-toll-rises-to-55-from-kyrgyz-tajik-border-clashes/2230340
  10. https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1166583/belgian-air-force-shares-video-of-russian-jet-intercept-over-baltic-sea
  11. https://www.newsweek.com/eu-chief-calls-more-ammo-ukraine-top-chinese-diplomat-urges-peace-1782525
  12. https://theweek.com/news/world-news/russia/955795/was-cyberattack-ukraine-precursor-russia-invasion
  13. https://www.forbes.com/sites/katyasoldak/2012/11/02/ukraines-prison-prone-prime-ministers/
  14. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/04/12/302167295/armed-men-take-police-hq-in-eastern-ukraine-city
  15. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/6/who-is-nobel-peace-prize-winner-narges
  16. https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/15/politics/who-is-rinat-akhmetshin/index.html
  17. https://socialsciences.ucla.edu/2017/08/29/are-islamic-state-recruits-more-street-gang-members-than-zealots/
  18. https://fortune.com/europe/2022/09/25/putin-losing-ukraine-war-cannot-explain-to-russia-why-says-zelensky/
  19. https://abcnews.go.com/US/us-woman-speaks-after-release-russian-captivity-same/story?id=95670746
  20. https://thehill.com/policy/international/3484858-heres-who-russia-has-punished-for-speaking-out-against-the-war-in-ukraine/
  21. Positive reception: https://www.politico.eu/article/radio-free-europe-returns-to-fight-fake-news/

(Note that no specific selection regarding RS or timeline was made, primarily focussing on getting a diverse list of sourcing. Feedback and additions are welcome)

FortunateSons (talk) 12:06, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  • A list of raw links with no context is too onerous to sift through to determine their veracity, however, on a cursory audit, many of these are themselves non-RS (e.g. Newsweek), or are other U.S. Government websites (e.g. NASA), or are reporting on RFE/RL rather than sourcing RFE/RL (e.g. HRW). Chetsford (talk) 12:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
    I am happy to filter them more thoroughly (based on what criteria?), but for example NASA is broadly cited. FortunateSons (talk) 12:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
    The fact that one completely unrelated organization cited another completely unrelated organization run by the same government once doesn’t mean anything. Dronebogus (talk) 23:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
    Andalou is indeed deprecated, or at least discouraged. Ditto Newsweek. The rest are generally considered reliable with the usual caveats about context, except that if that Forbes is a blog, special considerations may apply. Some are better than others. For what it is worth, Ukraine war articles use RFE/RL extensively and nobody in that topic area ever complained about it. Elinruby (talk) 15:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
    That depends on whether or not you consider NASA to be an RS (possible considered the high number of citations) and if you think that they are interdependent enough not to count for USEBYOTHERS. Both positions are valid IMO, but it also doesn’t really matter, because the goal is to show broad use by (preferably respected) sources. FortunateSons (talk) 00:26, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
    I know, it’s just that’s a pretty poor example since, although NASA is respected, it’s both insufficiently independent and not known for being a barometer of where we put our editorial Overton window. Basically what I’m saying is science and politics have different standards of reliability on WP; NASA isn’t a source on the latter so it can’t be used to judge the reliability of a political outlet. Dronebogus (talk) 00:40, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
    Makes sense. I was trying to also establish reliability for “generic” reporting (read: non-contentious), but I understand that those two may be too “close” (despite the older organisational structure being likely applicable here, per the discussion I linked above) for comfort. FortunateSons (talk) 00:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RFC: The Telegraph on trans issues

What is the reliability of the Telegraph on trans issues?

Loki (talk) 01:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Jump to: Survey Discussion Proposed moratorium

Survey (Telegraph on trans issues)

Option 3, and I'd vote 4 if I thought deprecating in a single topic area made sense. The Telegraph has lied repeatedly about trans issues. In one case, it promoted the litter boxes in schools hoax about a British school every day for a week, and even when the hoax was proven false they didn't retract or correct any of it. In fact, in the final article in the series it seems to double down on its dubious claim despite it directly being proven false. Also the second article in that series makes several other similar hoax claims that are completely and totally unsourced.
This wasn't a one-off incident either. Here are several more examples of the Telegraph going beyond simple bias and directly saying false things about trans people or trans issues:
1. They regularly ask anti-trans interest groups for comment while calling them subject-matter experts or trying to disguise their affiliation. See here (James Esses is not and has never been a therapist and Thoughtful Therapists is an anti-trans interest group), here (the idea that the UN is violating international law with a tweet is pretty transparently ridiculous, and yet they have the person saying that positioned as an expert), and here (anti-trans interest group Sex Matters is positioned as a women's rights group) but there are many many other examples.
2. They've multiple times alleged directly that trans women are men or trans men are women, which is not in keeping with the opinions of most sources on this topic. And they're not even consistent on this, this is a factual question they don't appear to have a single position on either way. One way or the other they must be saying something false.
3. Here they try very hard to cast doubt on what reading between the lines appears to be a medical fact that the medical community has come to a consensus on. Similarly see this article, which appears to just be anti-trans activists whining about a study that came to a conclusion they don't like.
I'm not just going based off direct evidence either: there is plenty of secondary coverage of the Telegraph's unreliability as well. I have even more evidence here because it's frankly unending. Loki (talk) 01:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Where did they promote the litter boxes in schools thing? I can't find it in the articles you linked. The only mention I could find in those articles was them saying it was a hoax? tales of schools providing litter trays to cater for children identifying as cats, have turned out to be hoaxes[14] Did you link the wrong articles, or am I missing something here? Endwise (talk) 05:13, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
What you're missing is that according to the article on the hoax, it's not just about literal litter boxes but any accommodation for students that identify as animals. Sorry for the lack of clarity, but I partly blame it on the article title and the lead being so strongly focused on this particular iteration of the hoax, when the rest of the article has followed the myth as it's actually evolved. Loki (talk) 15:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
There was no mention of a litter box. The viewpoint seems to be that any mention of a child identifying as an animal is an example of the litterbox hoax.--Boynamedsue (talk) 07:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Addressing a few different points discussed here:
  • As noted above, the statement that the Telegraph "promoted the litter boxes in schools hoax" is misleading at best.
    • The Telegraph does not mention that litter boxes were involved in this incident. In fact, this article places the incident in its broader context and denies the hoax:

      Stories about children self-identifying as animals – sometimes referred to as “furries” – have been circulating for some time. Some of them, such as tales of schools providing litter trays to cater for children identifying as cats, have turned out to be hoaxes, which has made it all too easy to assume that the problem is either a myth or is wildly exaggerated.

    • The Guardian and PinkNews articles do not show that the story was "directly proven false". The central question here is whether a student truly had a feline identity. These articles do not disprove that. They state that an investigation exonerated the behavior of the teacher and school (reprimanding the students who mocked the idea of a feline identity).
    • In general, pointing to an article from an otherwise reliable source and saying "This story resembles other incidents that were hoaxes, therefore this is also false and an instance of the hoax" is not a sound argument. Consider the example of snuff films. The Wikipedia page says that snuff films are an urban legend because there are videos of people being murdered, but none of them have been sold for profit. But if such a film were to emerge and be sold for profit, and then be reported on by a reliable source, we wouldn't say "This is clearly an example of the snuff film hoax, therefore we should deprecate the source that reported it".
  • The Telegraph article describes James Esses as a co-founder of Thoughtful Therapists, a group of counsellors and psychologists concerned with impact of gender ideology on young people. Esses is a counsellor according to this article, which calls him a children’s counsellor and trainee psychotherapist. If Esses is indeed a counsellor, then there is nothing wrong with saying he is part of "a group of counsellors and psychologists".
  • The characterization of this article as "whining" does not appear to be a good-faith summary of the article. The IOC paper's critics raise several issues that, if true, are significant and problematic: small sample size, self-selection bias, failure to control for important variables like hormone treatment and body fat percentage, etc. It is not "whining" to raise these concerns.
  • The "even more evidence" linked further down is largely unconvincing in terms of reliability issues. Stories are described as "extremely dodgy", "dubious", and "suspicious", but with no explanation for why this is so. Without further elaboration, this strikes me as precisely what the IOC study's critics are being accused of—complaining about articles with an unfavorable perspective—but from the opposite direction.
Astaire (talk) 08:01, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
It is perhaps important to point out that seemingly the only mention of litterboxes wre this in The Telegraph (search query: "telegraph litterboxes lgbtq") is this article, about the school denying the rumors. Flounder fillet (talk) 14:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
See above: the litter boxes in schools hoax is about any accommodation, not just litter boxes, and this is clear if you read the examples and not just the lead. Loki (talk) 15:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
That is not the way it is framed in the article or how a reasonable person would understand it.-Boynamedsue (talk) 15:31, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Yes it is? The article uses all the following as examples of the hoax:
  • In January 2022, Michelle Evans, a Texan Republican running for congress, claimed that cafeteria tables were "being lowered in certain Round Rock Independent School District middle and high schools to allow 'furries' to more easily eat without utensils or their hands". The school district denied the claims.
  • In March 2022, a conservative commentator promoted claims that the Waunakee School District in Wisconsin had a "furry protocol" specifying the rules for furries, including being "allowed to dress in their choice of furry costumes" and "choose not to run in gym class but instead sit at the feet of their teacher and lick their paws".
  • Several Republican lawmakers in the U.S. state of North Dakota sponsored legislation to prohibit schools from adopting "a policy establishing or providing a place, facility, school program, or accommodation that caters to a student's perception of being any animal species other than human". In January 2024, Oklahoma representative Justin Humphrey introduced legislation that would ban students that identify as animals or who "engage in anthropomorphic behavior" from participating in school activities and allow animal control to remove the student from the premises.
"Litter boxes" specifically is the central example of the hoax but it's not the only way it can manifest. Loki (talk) 16:03, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
@LokiTheLiar: Let's assume any claim of accomodations for animal-identifying students is a hoax (even though you have been unable to show that despite being pressed on this issue by many people).
Can you provide some actual examples of The Telegraph saying that students identifying as cats receive accomodations? More specifically, some kind of quote? Accommodation is a broad term; a student could self-ID as a variety of things and yet not need individualized accomodations from the school. If your claim is that The Telegraph falsely promoted the idea that students received accomodations for identifying as animals, you should be able to a) point to specific examples of accomodations and b) quote The Telegraph saying that students received those particular accomodations. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 16:01, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
The articles repeatedly claim that a teacher punished another student for denying the animal identity. That sounds like an accommodation to me, right? Loki (talk) 16:37, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Negative rights (such as punishing other students) are not an "accommodation" in the same way as positive rights (such as providing litter boxes). And the litter box hoax article contains no similar stories where students or school officials were punished for refusing to respect any feline identities. This story does not slide into the "litter box hoax" framework as neatly as you want it to. Astaire (talk) 17:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
This said it better than I could. Even if the claim that students identifying as animals receive rights to services matching their chosen animal identity is false in every case, that's not even what LokiTheLiar is saying The Telegraph said. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 18:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
@Astaire Okay then, so, was the story true?
Even if you disagree that it's an example of this particular hoax, it's still definitely false reporting every day for a week, right? IMO this "which hoax is it" stuff is a red herring: it sounds compelling but doesn't actually make the Telegraph any more reliable that they promoted a false claim that was merely similar to a well-known hoax rather than an actual example of it. And again, never corrected nor retracted said false claim. And tried to imply it was true even in an article directly mentioning the proof that it was false. Loki (talk) 21:31, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
I'm just now entering the discussion, so I may have missed this, but...what exactly did the Telegraph say that was "proven false"? I'm having a hard time finding it. Pecopteris (talk) 21:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
They claimed multiple times that a student identified as an animal, and that a teacher strongly insulted another student who questioned this identification. None of this is true according to the school itself. It's a misinterpretation of a (real) recording, on which the idea of identifying as an animal was brought up rhetorically to insult a trans student. Loki (talk) 23:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
The claim you're disputing is that a teacher punished another student for denying the animal identity. This claim is true. A student was reprimanded for denying "animal identity". There is a recording of the incident. The only dispute is whether or not the student was reprimanded for denying a specific classmate's identity as a cat, or the general idea of students identifying as cats. The recording suggested that it was a specific classmate, the school denied that any student identified as a cat a week later, and an external report didn't take one side or the other. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 22:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
It's not true at all. The student was reprimanded for attacking another student's very real trans identity using the metaphor of animal identity. Loki (talk) 23:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Let me make sure I'm getting this straight, @Chess and @LokiTheLiar.
A student at a school (call them student #1) identified as trans. Another student (student #2) objected in some way to acknowledging student #1's trans identity, and rhetorically brought up animal identity...i.e. "if we respect student #1's identity, what's next, does that mean we have to respect animal identity, too?" Then, the teacher reprimanded student #2, and told student #2, essentially, "yes, if a student identified as an animal, you would have to respect that, and it's insensitive and wrong to not respect animal identity."
But the Telegraph missed the "rhetorically" part, and instead inaccurately reported that student #1 actually identified as an animal.
Obviously I am paraphrasing, but do I have the gist correct? Want to make sure I understand the objections before I weigh in on the survey. Thanks. Pecopteris (talk) 01:29, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
One small misunderstanding; the Telegraph never reported that student #1 actually identified as an animal; they only reported that students #2 and #3 were reprimanded for not accepting classmate #1 identifying as an animal, which is true. BilledMammal (talk) 01:42, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Close, but the teacher didn't say "yes, if a student identified as an animal, you would have to respect that". She just said, essentially, "you're being very disrespectful and you need to stop".
BilledMammal above is incorrect, here's the direct quote of what they said: A school teacher told a pupil she was “despicable” after she refused to accept that her classmate identifies as a cat. Clearly this is also saying that her classmate identifies as a cat for the same reason that The queen refused to accept the prime minister's resignation is also saying that the prime minister resigned. Loki (talk) 01:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
You keep using The queen refused to accept the prime minister's resignation, but the equivalent hypothetical would be The king chastised the queen for refusing to accept the prime minister's resignation. Clearly, the statement remains true regardless of whether the prime minister actually resigned.
In addition, at the time of publication, no one knew whether the classmate actually identified as a cat or not, and as such there was clearly no issue with them not taking a stance on whether the classmate did identify as a cat. BilledMammal (talk)
If you really insist, I will use the longer example, because it clearly doesn't make a lick of difference. You cannot make a false claim not false or not a claim by adding more subordinate clauses. Loki (talk) 03:31, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
A question to all participants. Where can we see a full, accurate and reliable transcript of this video, or even better the full unedited video itself? Vegan416 (talk) 04:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
The best option is the Daily Mail's one which has captions but is edited to have scary music on top of it. [15] WP:DAILYMAIL is deprecated for a reason though, so I'd take anything not substantiated by another source with a grain of salt. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 05:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
I've placed a transcript here if you don't want to sit through the Daily Mail vid:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Void_if_removed/sandbox/Catgate_transcript Void if removed (talk) 13:20, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
@Pecopteris: Pretty much. I think the teacher was less clear than you're making it out to be, but you have the gist of it. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
There are two examples referring to extreme non-litter tray accommodations in our article, but the point is that they were not true. Hence the word "hoax". The Telegraph does not make any claim of accommodations, merely stating that children were called despicable for refusing to identify a classmate (who it does not specify is real or hypothetical) as a cat.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:34, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Loki, please stop moving this down to discussion; you don't get to present your arguments and deny those who disagree with those arguments the opportunity to reject them in context.
As a general rule, if you are going to hat or move something, the highest level reply included within the hatting or moving should be one you made. For example, you could move 15:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC), but not 05:13, 3 June 2024 (UTC). BilledMammal (talk) 04:02, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
I find it incredible that you won't let me move a discussion that's several pages long down to the Discussion section where it clearly belongs.
Let me ping an uninvolved admin to settle this. @ScottishFinnishRadish, twice now I have tried to move this incredibly long thread responding to my !vote to the Discussion section. Twice now BilledMammal has brought it back up, and this time they're accusing me of attempting to eke out some sort of advantage by doing this. Could you please settle where it belongs? Loki (talk) 04:28, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Loki, I don’t see you moving your own rebuttals to others !votes down to discussion.
As I said, if you want to shorten this, do so from your own replies; allow the immediate rebuttals to stand, and move your replies to those rebuttals, and all conversation from those replies, down to discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 04:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
I put comments I expect are going to lead to long threads in the discussion section in the first place. But I do and have moved other threads many times without regard to whether or not it helps "my side". Honestly the idea you think this is partisan is baffling and is indicative of a huge WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude.
I'm not moving just my comments down because that wouldn't help. There are five responses to my !vote, counting this thread, and one of them is a WP:WALLOFTEXT. If you want I can move the whole thread including the !vote down and re-vote, but that would make several other people's !votes not make a lot of sense in context so I'd rather not do that either.
(Why did you put this in the Survey section, by the way? It's clearly not a !vote, you could have put it in Discussion and pinged me.) Loki (talk) 05:46, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
IMHO, we might as well leave everything as-is and just stop making the wall of text bigger. If anyone has more to say about this thread, just put it in the discussion section and ping everyone from this thread. Cheers. Pecopteris (talk) 05:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
The general rule, when refactoring a discussion you are involved in, is don't refactor in a way that gives you the last word.
As for just moving down just your comments, and the responses to your comments, it would reduce the length of the responses from ~2600 to ~800. For context, the length of your !vote is ~800. If your concern is length, I'm not sure how removing ~1800 words wouldn't help.
No objection to moving this discussion over refactoring down to discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 06:02, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
At least 3 editors have independently brought the !vote out of the moving/collapsing now. I hope that we can take that as consensus. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Given editors are taking Loki's claims at face value, apparently without reading this - probably because it is collapsed - I'm uncollapsing it. BilledMammal (talk) 06:34, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
I highly doubt that and have collapsed it again. The biggest chunks of rebuttal text, including Chess's (the most cited!), are outside of this !vote. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:10, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
See Daveosaurus' !vote. Regardless, there is no basis for this collapse under WP:TPO; please stop. BilledMammal (talk) 17:12, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
I disagree that it was caused by this !vote being collapsed due to the overwhelming amount of Option 1 arguments others have referenced, but whatever. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
To go point-by-point (starting with the 0th), The Telegraph never promoted the "litterboxes in schools" hoax. The articles cited by LokiTheLiar claimed students identified as animals, not that they requested accommodation in the form of litterboxes. The first claim is much more believable than the second, and was based on a recorded conversation in which a teacher at Rye College asserted a student was offended because their identity as a cat was questioned.
Specifically, this controversy was because a student was reprimanded for not accepting that a classmate of theirs could identify as a cat. This student recorded the conversation and leaked it to the media. The contents of the conversation itself implied that a classmate *did* identify as a cat, which Pink News acknowledged. In the recording, which was shared with the press, the teacher is also heard saying that a student had upset a fellow pupil by “questioning their identity” after the student asked, “how can you identify as a cat when you’re a girl?” [17] And when The Telegraph initially asked the school for comment, they did not deny the story. [18] While the school later denied the claims of cats in schools, that does not invalidate the original reporting which was based on a recorded conversation. There was also no "debunking" of the original story beyond the school's denial that students identified as cats. The Guardian said: Although the report does not directly address the argument between the teacher and pupils, or the question of whether any pupils identify as animals, it praises the quality of staff training and teaching of relationship and sex education “in a sensitive and impartial way” in reference to whether or not the Ofsted report indirectly cited by Loki debunked the claim that students identified as animals. [19]
It's bizarre to claim that The Telegraph knowingly spread false information when the contents of the recording the story was based on indicated that a student did identify as a cat, and the school did not even dispute the truthfulness of the allegation. How were they supposed to know that this was false when they published the story?
If Loki wants to refute my point that The Telegraph said that animal-identifying students are getting litterboxes in schools, merely provide a quote from the article saying so.
In response to Loki's first point, that quoting anti-transgender activist groups makes The Telegraph unreliable, this is standard journalistic practice. A newspaper giving both sides of the story does not make it unreliable. Loki's standard, that The Telegraph should not quote any anti-trans activists when covering transgender-related topics, is untenable. The Telegraph does not misrepresent Esses' affiliation by describing him as a therapist, only as a spokesperson for a group of therapists.
In more detail, James Esses is a spokesperson for Thoughtful Therapists. He is passionate about this issue because he was thrown out of his master's program for holding gender-critical beliefs. [20] [21] One does not have to be a therapist to be an activist about therapy. Should the Amazon Labor Union be deplatformed because it's chief organizer, Chris Smalls, was fired from his job at Amazon?
In the first article cited by Loki [22], the article accurately describes Esses as a co-founder of Thoughtful Therapists, a group of counsellors and psychologists concerned with impact of gender ideology on young people The article does not say that he is a therapist, and it describes his group as an entity that advocates against gender ideology.
The second article provides a quote saying that the tweet Remember, trans lesbians are lesbians too. Let’s uplift and honour every expression of love and identity. contravenes the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. [23] While Loki describes this as pretty transparently ridiculous, Reem Alsalem, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women, said in an official position paper from the UN that Building on the implicit understanding that the word “woman” refers to biological females, the CEDAW Committee’s reference to lesbian women can only be understood to mean biological females that are attracted to biological females [24] Unless Loki proposes to say that the United Nations is also unreliable on interpreting its own treaties, the claim that "trans lesbians are lesbians" does, in fact, contravene CEDAW.
The third article says that Sex Matters is a women's rights group. They advocate for what they see as women's rights, which they don't view as including trans women. At best, this demonstrates that The Telegraph is biased in favour of a gender-critical viewpoint since they're adopting the preferred verbiage of such. This isn't a factual distortion and isn't very WP:FRINGE given that the UN says women's rights refer to ciswomen's rights.
On Loki's 2nd point, the statement that trans women are women or that trans men are men is a litmus test for agreement with the transgender movement. It's a commonly-held political position, one held by the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women [25] and the Education Secretary of the UK [26]. Proposing to designate The Telegraph as unreliable on that basis alone is illogical since by that logic we should get rid of Reem Alsalem. But the sources Loki provided don't even authoritatively state that trans women aren't women.
Loki's first source [27] says that It means male patients who do not claim to live as women have the right to choose to stay on women’s wards. It criticizes the idea that people assigned male at birth who have not received gender-reassignment surgery nor made any effort to physically transition can self-identify as women to be assigned to women's only wards in hospitals; many people who haven't legally transitioned to female can be treated in hospitals in women-only environments. In other words, the Telegraph says that people identifying but not-legally-recognized-as trans women are not women. At no point does the article "directly allege" that trans women are not women.
Loki's second source says that a 13-year-old socially transitioned without the mother of such knowing. [28] The Cass Review, a systemic review of evidence in the field of transgender medicine, points out the same concerns on page 160, point 12.16, and says that socially transitioning young girls could reinforce feelings of gender incongruence. Saying that a socially transitioned 13-year-old might not really be trans is not saying that "trans women are not women" and that is not asserted in the article.
Loki's third source[29] does dispute that trans women are women, but appears to be an outside opinion piece from Richard Garside, who "is the director of the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies". That's not an official policy of the newspaper, and per WP:OPINION, opinion pieces already have a lower standard of reliability.
Loki's fourth source[30] says that there is a distinction between biological sex and gender, then acknowledges that students can change gender, i.e. be transgender.
It is telling that Loki did not provide any quotes from these articles despite the claim that they all "alleged directly" this claim. If they make these direct allegations, one should be able to provide quotes for the ones I have refuted.
For Loki's third point, the first article just reports that transgender women can produce milk to feed babies and an NHS trust says that this is equivalent to normal breastmilk. [31] Then it discusses how the patient leaflet for the drug used to facilitate this, Motilium, says Small amounts have been detected in breastmilk. Motilium may cause unwanted side effects affecting the heart in a breastfed baby. [It] should be used during breastfeeding only if your physician considers this clearly necessary. I'm not sure how the claim that trans women's breastmilk is safe is a medical fact that the medical community has come to a consensus on, when Loki literally said that they "read between the lines" to get to that conclusion and caveated their statement with an "appears to be". If one is going to say that this is the consensus of the medical community maybe provide some citations instead of just assuming things are true because of a dislike of The Telegraph?
The second article for Loki's third point[32] quotes Dr. Ross Tucker, a respected sports scientist, saying that the study compared unathletic trans women to athletic cis women. [33] It had a self-selected participant base of 69 volunteers responding to a social media advertisement. The claim is that the study is poor-quality research funded to advance a viewpoint. Loki says that the second article is anti-trans activists whining about a study that came to a conclusion they don't like, but the people quoted in the article are a doctor + British olympians + the chair of Sex Matters, who all raise serious issues with the study such as a small effect size and the difference in athleticism between the two populations. This is literally what WP:MEDRS tells us to do. Using small-scale, single studies makes for weak evidence, and allows for cherry picking of data. Studies cited or mentioned in Wikipedia should be put in context by using high-quality secondary sources rather than by using the primary sources.
Please be more specific on what parts of the articles that are inaccurate. At best, Loki has shown that The Telegraph is biased in favour of a gender-critical perspective. Future comments should be more specific because otherwise they are unfalsifiable generalities Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 04:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
P.S. I'll add on, that in your linked page you acknowledge that your problem with Thoughtful Therapists isn't that it's being inaccurately described, but that The Telegraph uses biased phrasing in favour of it. They are a group of therapists with an agenda, quite similar to Thoughtful Therapists, but the Telegraph describes TACTT as "trans activists" when it has consistently described TT as "a group of therapists concerned with/about X".
[34] Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 05:08, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
I mean, it can be and is both. Loki (talk) 15:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Reem Alsalem, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women, said in an official position paper from the UN that[...] Unless Loki proposes to say that the United Nations is also unreliable on interpreting its own treaties, the claim that "trans lesbians are lesbians" does, in fact, contravene CEDAW.

It should be noted that this position paper states the following on it's last page:

The Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls, as a Special Procedures mandate of the United Nations Human Rights Council, serves in her individual capacity independent from any government or organization.

See also United Nations special rapporteur.Flounder fillet (talk) 13:45, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Also, since I wrote this already, here's The Telegraph making a similar mistake and the BBCs better coverage of the same situation. Flounder fillet (talk) 21:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
@Chess I think that this response, despite being long, doesn't have a lot of substance. A couple of quick points:
First, the litter boxes in schools hoax isn't necessarily about litter boxes specifically but any accommodation. A teacher defending an animal identity and punishing other students for questioning it certainly is an accommodation and the Telegraph repeatedly made this claim in those articles. And regardless of whether it was an example of the hoax, the fact of the matter is that it is definitely and unambiguously false, and the Telegraph repeated it over and over again and never retracted or corrected it.
Second, I specifically do not think that quoting anti-trans activist groups makes the Telegraph unreliable per se. What I'm objecting to is hiding the nature of those anti-trans activist groups, and also quoting them repeatedly as experts, and usually without any reference to pro-trans activist groups at all.
Third, I agree that the way they described James Esses is not, technically, false. But it's clearly misleading because it makes it seem that he is a therapist and Thoughtful Therapists is a reliable professional organization when neither is true: he got kicked out of his program for bigotry of the sort that he is being quoted to repeat, and Thoughtful Therapists is an anti-trans activist group which clearly does not require you to be any sort of psychotherapy professional to be a member given that James Esses is a member. Similarly the way they describe Sex Matters as a "woman's rights group" is arguably not false but clearly misleading. It would be like describing Andrew Wakefield as "a well-known doctor": not technically false but clearly misleading.
Fourth, as Flounder fillet said that's Reem Alsalem's own personal opinion and is honestly not directly related here anyway. The claim being made here is ridiculous no matter what Reem Alsalem thinks. The UN cannot violate international law with a tweet.
Fifth, see Talk:Trans_woman/Definitions for an exhaustive list of sources on the matter of trans women being women. TL;DR no matter how much you think it's gender ideology or whatever, saying that trans women are men is very much not in keeping with reliable sources. I think your close interpretation of these sources to deny that they are calling trans women men or trans men women is pretty clearly untrue. As briefly as I can manage: in the first article it's the headline and the first sentence among other times, second article calls the transmasculine subject of the article a girl repeatedly, the fourth article calls people binding their breasts "girls". The third article you concede but say is opinion is marked in the URL as news, and not marked as opinion in any way. So it's either news, or the Telegraph is mixing opinion and news, which would make it unreliable generally and not just for trans issues. Being from a writer that does not usually write for the Telegraph does not make something opinion.
Sixth, for my third point you're trying to make us focus on the trees and ignore the forest. (Honestly, I think that's the whole reply, but especially on this point.) Yeah if you ignore that the NHS is officially saying a medical statement you can make it look dubious. You can also make a whole study look dubious if you quote one doctor and a bunch of non-experts. Here at Wikipedia, we wouldn't say that a single doctor's professional opinion is even WP:MEDRS but for the Telegraph it's apparently better than a study. Loki (talk) 16:34, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
The claim that the litter boxes in schools hoax isn't literally about litter boxes is both untrue and irrelevant to the point, which is that The Telegraph did their journalist due diligence. They had a recording where a) the teacher said a student identified as a cat, and b) the school didn't deny that in their initial statement. Only a week later did the school deny the story after intense media pressure, but no one other than the school ever denied a student ID'd as a cat. If your claim is WP:GUNREL or WP:MREL, show why the fact-checking of the source was deficient, because even reliable sources are allowed to make mistakes, and the most evidence you have the Telegraph made a mistake is the school's denial after the article came out.
On your 2nd and 3rd points, the purpose of designating a source as unreliable is to prevent using it in articles. Citing a reliable source for what it implies (and does not directly support) can already be challenged and removed from articles per WP:Verifiability. Since you acknowledge that the false claims you've drawn from the Telegraph are only misleading implications, designating the Telegraph as WP:GUNREL or WP:MREL is redundant as those claims already cannot be cited. Please give directly supported claims from The Telegraph that are false and could be cited under our reliability policies if the source was declared WP:GREL.
On your 4th point we will have to agree to disagree over whether United Nations Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women Reem Alsalem is a WP:FRINGE perspective on the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, since you acknowledge she agrees with the claims Women's Declaration International made against the tweet.
On your 5th point, I've explained how articles 1, 2, and 4 are saying that the definition of "trans women" is too wide, not that "trans women =/= women". I'm not going to go in circles on whether taking the position "trans women are women" is a good litmus test to apply to reliable sources, we've both written our views. Article 3 is either a single example of an opinion miscategorized as a news piece (which I believe happened) or it's a regular news article and the only factual error you've pointed out is it saying trans women aren't women.
Your sixth point doesn't explain how the Telegraph was wrong in saying the Motilium patient leaflet contradicts the NHS guidance nor does it address why the Telegraph was wrong in saying that the IOC study had a small sample size and a discrepancy in fitness between the trans athletes and the cis athletes. If the Telegraph isn't wrong, why does quoting these views make the Telegraph unreliable? Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 22:21, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
I think something you say here is the key to all the recent RfC's on news sources and trans issues. I think it's possible to become so embedded in a POV that one comes to view that POV as pure objective truth, and the anti-POV therefore starts to look objectively false.--Boynamedsue (talk) 14:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Most of the provided evidence hinges on a misrepresentation of the "cat" story. The Telegraph categorically did not promote the litter boxes in schools hoax about a British school every day for a week. The only Telegraph story offered that actually mentions litter trays points out it is a myth:

Some of them, such as tales of schools providing litter trays to cater for children identifying as cats, have turned out to be hoaxes, which has made it all too easy to assume that the problem is either a myth or is wildly exaggerated.

The only aspect of the story that actually seems in any doubt is as to whether there actually was a child in the school who did identify as a cat, or whether this was a hypothetical thrown up in the classroom discussion, and it was ambiguous and open to interpretation based on the recorded conversation - and subsequently denied by the school. Everything else is AFAICT pretty factually reported, albeit biased, and audio of the incident was widely available so anyone can confirm this. The "cat-identification" portion is almost irrelevant in the context of the actual discussion, in which a teacher tells a class of students that there are three human sexes, and labels a child despicable for disagreeing as well as suggesting they should leave the school. These are reported accurately, eg.:

She added that "there is actually three biological sexes because you can be born with male and female body parts or hormones"

The teacher said that "if you don’t like it you need to go to a different school", adding: "I’m reporting you to [senior staff], you need to have a proper educational conversation about equality, diversity and inclusion because I’m not having that expressed in my lesson."

All of this is true and verifiable and acknowledged by the school:

The school, which does not dispute that the incident happened, said it was committed to inclusive education, but would be "reviewing our processes to ensure such events do not take place in the future".

So again - the only aspect of the story that is exaggerated is that there was an actual child literally identifying as a cat in that class, which does not seem to be true, but is also - despite the headlines - a minor aspect of the story and nothing to do with the "litter box" hoax at all. Dismissing it as such serves to obscure than the vast majority of the story - as reported elsewhere - was nothing to do with the cat-identification and actually to do with poor handling of a sensitive subject, and it was this handling which prompted a snap inspection. The fact that media across the spectrum focused on the specific detail of the cat virtually to the exclusion of the entire rest of the story, and that politicians and pundits made much hay with that, is a universal failure and merely representative of silly season to my mind. Additionally, the "rebuttal" is misrepresented - as the Guardian makes clear, the Ofsted inspection did not look at this specific incident, and since the school has already conceded it happened and took action, saying this is "proven false" is, frankly, a misrepresentation. The inspection found that, whatever the failures in this case, they were not systemic.
Some comments about the other points.
  • We decide whether a group is "anti-trans" based on how reliable sources refer to them. Deciding a priori that a group is “anti-trans” and that any source that does not denigrate them as such is “unreliable” is begging the question, and POV. Not only that, this sort of reasoning will act like a ratchet, steadily removing all sources except those that adhere to a preconceived POV. This is a rare, non-fallacious slippery slope. Sex Matters are a registered charity, and if reliable sources refer to them as “women’s rights group” then that is how Wikipedia should refer to them, or at the most present different opinionated labels in an attempt to balance a divisive subject. Deciding the Telegraph is factually unreliable for not strongly espousing a particular subjective POV is to elevate one specific POV to the level of fact, and a blanket decision at the source reliability level on that basis will inevitably entrench that POV across the entirety of Wikipedia, and lend weight to further RFCs argued on the same grounds. This is a concerning move indeed.
  • Irrespective of whether that makes a source unreliable, the complaints about calling trans women "men" don't seem to be supported by the supplied links.
  • On the breastfeeding story - where is a factual error here? And the opener strongly overstates the status of “a medical fact that the medical community has come to a consensus on” in criticising The Telegraph:
The letter leaked to Policy Exchange is here, and no-one disputes its veracity. The letter responds to questions raised over the use of the phrase “human milk”, which they defend as intended to be non-gender biased, as part of their policy on “Perinatal Care for Trans and Non-Binary People”. Then in a specific response to a question which uses the unpleasant phrase “male secretions” they make the claim that induced lactation produces milk “comparable to that produced following the birth of a baby”. They do not outright say this specifically applies to trans women, but this is implied by the five citations. The first four relate solely to lactation induction in females, where such a claim may well be true (though one is a very limited two-person pilot study, and another is a “La Leche League” info page that just references the same citations).
However the fifth citation makes it clear they are applying the same language to trans women. This references a single case study, with a single trans woman participant, with absolutely no sample control. That is, a trans woman, with a partner who had given birth and was at that time breastfeeding - and initially expressing milk too. The participant would deliver samples they themselves had allegedly produced at home - with no supervision or observation - for testing, and the results were limited.

Four samples of expressed human milk were frozen and supplied for analysis. Each 40-ml sample was obtained from full breast pumpings pooled over a 24-hr period, collected approximately once each month, starting 129 days after initiation of domperidone and 56 days after initiation of pumping.

the quantity of expressed milk was low in comparison to what would be needed to sustain infant growth independently

Nutritionally, our participant’s milk was quite robust with higher values for all macronutrients and average calories over 20 kcals per 30 ml. Other important characteristics of human milk, including micronutrients and bioactive factors, were not assessed.

So based on a totally uncontrolled and unverified sample size of one, obtained under an honour system with no source verification, with inadequate volumes and incomplete nutritional testing, it is wishful thinking to consider that a “medical fact”. This is an atrocious standard of evidence, and an NHS Trust shoehorning this in as part of a response to a policy query is, frankly, bizarre.
What is however misleading in The Telegraph's reporting is that they segue from talking about induced lactation in trans women to this claim:

It also references a 2022 study that found “milk testosterone concentrations” were under 1 per cent with “no observable side effects” in the babies.

What they don't make clear in the source is this was referring to a trans man. Now, they don't outright say anything false, but arguably by omission let an ill-informed reader assume they're still talking about trans women, so I think this is marginal. But an obfuscated claim like this does not come close to making them "generally unreliable", rather exactly the sort of biased elision that editors need to be wary of with any biased source.
The objection here seems yet again that the Telegraph reported the story at all, not that it was wrong or in any significant way unreliable. And even if it were, when would we cite this article?
I have no doubt that The Telegraph have their own interest in focusing on and generating such inflammatory stories - but they aren't notably unreliable more than any other biased source IMO. They are biased in what stories they choose to report on and how they choose to present them and what they choose to leave out, but virtually none of what's been presented here amounts to false information. That this cherry-picked handful of coverage spanning years is supposedly the strongest evidence, I find highly unpersuasive. Void if removed (talk) 15:58, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Just since it is relevant - the BBC complaints unit has this week upheld a complaint of inaccuracy about it's own reporting of the story mentioned in point 3, which confirms that this is not at all a "medical fact", and actually concurs with the telegraph reporting. https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/ecu/the-context-bbc-news-channel-19-february-2024 Void if removed (talk) 00:02, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3. The Telegraph has gone far beyond bias and into unreliability, from the above RFCbefore they advocate for conversion therapy. From [35] we have the quote "A school teacher told a pupil she was “despicable” after she refused to accept that her classmate identifies as a cat." from which it is clear that the telegraph says someone at the school identifies as a cat. From [36] we have constant misgendering of a child (honestly I can't remember an article where they respect the gender of a trans child) and the quote "citing the most comprehensive study of the impact of binders to date, which found that more than 97 per cent of adults who use them suffer health problems as a result." which seems to be mentioning [37] where the most 5 reported health problems were backpain (53.8%), overheating (53.5%), chest pain (48.8%), shortness of breath(46.6%) and itchiness (44.9%). I think one could get similar health problems (in terms of severity) from people who consistently wear high heals and possibly at a higher frequency. Another point people seem to be bringing up is that it is normal (and best practice) for newspapers to bring activists or campaigners from both sides on any issue, whilst true the telegraph doesn't do this. They rarely balance with a campaigner or activist from stonewall or mermaids or any number of local groups, somehow they always manage to bring in an activist from Safe Sex Matter, Thoughtful Therapists, Safe Schools alliance, Protect and Teach and more. They also promote the myth that most children with gender dysphoria will desist and are in fact gay in some kind [38](one example) a myth based on studies that assume any gender nonconformity is the same as gender dysphoria and based on outdated definitions. LunaHasArrived (talk) 16:37, 3 June 2024 (UTC) — LunaHasArrived (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
The claim that anybody has ever identified as a cat appears to be culture war bullshit. https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/01/30/how-furries-got-swept-up-in-anti-trans-litter-box-rumors/
The Telegraph has reported Birbalsingh as a factual source on this thoroughly-refuted bullshit. Guy (help! - typo?) 18:11, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
To add more evidence in this article There is the claim
"Feminist campaign groups criticised..."
The telegraph then goes on to add comment from Sex matters and transgender trend.
In this peice Sex matters explicitly says "sex matters is not a feminist organisation"
I could find no claims by transgender trend on the matter.
This is alongside feminist groups generally saying that these kind of groups are not feminist and their views are incongruent with feminism
In this article The telegraph describes one Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull As a feminist campaigner. Similar to sex matters this is a label she actively rejects and feminists do not label her as.
These instances of consistently misusing the "feminist" label are lying and misinformation. This is a case where bias has gone in to unreliability. LunaHasArrived (talk) 19:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
The Sex Matters one is a good point, but as for KJKM, that article is from 2019, and the earliest source we have for her not being a feminist is from 2021. So that easily could just be a timing issue. Loki (talk) 23:12, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
  • Transgender Trend's founder, Stephanie Davies-Arai: "She explains how feminism informs what she does at Transgender Trend..."
  • Sex Matters' About Us page:
  • It's really not a smoking gun that groups comprised of feminists, attending feminist conferences, and making arguments about women's rights, should be described as feminists, even if those groups seek to distance themselves from being labelled as capital-F feminists. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 09:56, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
    All of the above is disputed. We do not say that filia (the feminist conference mentioned above) is feminist in wikivoice, neither do we with Maya Forstater or Helen Joyce. Being generous 2-5 out of 11 "members of the team" are feminist, this is more akin to has some feminist members not is comprised of feminists. These groups aren't comprised of feminists, do not attend feminist conferences (remember this is plural, multiple years of filia would not count) and are criticised for misusing women's rights and platforming with people who seek to remove those rights. This along with not wanting to be referred to as feminist paints a picture that it is inaccurate to refer to this group as a feminist campiaign group.
    Transgender trend clearly fails to meet feminist campaign group if the only evidence is the founder talking to filia in a podcast during lockdown. LunaHasArrived (talk) 10:52, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
    I stopped searching after 5 of them. Here’s another, Jo Bartosch: “Before her career in journalism, she was chair of Chelt Fems, which was one of the largest and most active feminist groups in south-west England.”
    Feminism has no hard edges or rigorous membership criteria, and Wikipedia is not the gatekeeper of who is a feminist and who isn’t. This is like a Labour Party politician being called a socialist: not necessarily a term they would call themselves, but not wholly wrong, still well within the loose confines of what the word can mean, and certainly not a lie. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 11:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
    This may be true for an individual, it does not make it true for a group. Whilst one may be able to argue about members of Sex matters being feminists, that is a very different story to saying the group is a feminist campaign group. I'm glad you have conceded that transgender trends is by no means a feminist campaign group. LunaHasArrived (talk) 11:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
    I think it’s reasonable to not call them a feminist group based on self-identification. I also think it’s reasonable to call them a feminist group based on the duck test. Either can be argued, neither is a lie. Transgender Trend is exactly the same. The word “feminist” isn’t as black & white as you want it to be, and it’s a huge reach to claim that The Telegraph using it in this way makes them unreliable about the topic at hand, which isn’t feminism. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 11:56, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
@Black Kite: Did you intend to delete Chess’s comment of 19:33? Sweet6970 (talk) 19:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
I'm not being funny, but all of those are just opinions you disagree with, none of it is factually wrong. Your vote here is so far from our policies, I'm not sure if it should even be counted by the closer.Boynamedsue (talk) 18:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
"None of it is factually wrong". Even if you were correct, which you aren't, do you think it shows that the newspaper can be trusted on the topic? It clearly can't. Black Kite (talk) 19:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Well thats the rub isnt it. Our sourcing policies do not require us as editors to personally trust the sources, only that they fulfil the criteria for reliability we have set. I distrust the Telegraph because its a mouthpiece for Tory scumbags, but thats not actually against any of our policies. If only it were. Per Chess, pretty much all the rest of the evidence to me shows bias, but not unreliability (as we have defined it), so I am going to have to regretfully go with option 1. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
If you think there is factual inaccuracy, could you say what it is? Whether I like what it writes (and I usually don't) doesn't make any odds at all.--Boynamedsue (talk) 20:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
You make the point for us. It's an opinion. A fringe one, that screams out of every single word of coverage on the topic. Guy (help! - typo?) 17:57, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
That last one misrepresents the findings of the Cass review, on top of whatever else is going on there. Flounder fillet (talk) 18:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
WP:MEDRS already recommends against using normally reliable news sources to explain complicated medical studies; what does designating The Telegraph as unreliable add here? Even so, I dispute that The Telegraph is inaccurate. The Telegraph's article says Dr Hilary Cass warned of potential risks of social transition – when names and pronouns are changed – saying it could push children down a potentially harmful medical pathway when issues could be resolved in other ways.
Page 32, paragraph 78 of the Cass Review itself[39] says: Therefore, sex of rearing seems to have some influence on eventual gender outcome, and it is possible that social transition in childhood may change the trajectory of gender identity development for children with early gender incongruence.
The Cass Review also says on page 164 that Clinical involvement in the decision-making process should include advising on the risks and benefits of social transition as a planned intervention, referencing best available evidence. This is not a role that can be taken by staff without appropriate clinical training.
It's not a misrepresentation of the Cass Review to say socially transitioning could cause feelings of gender incongruence, and there should be clinical involvement in the decision-making process instead of a child unilaterally deciding to socially transition without any advice. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 19:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

The SNP government has kept controversial guidance, which calls on teachers to “be affirming” to children who say they are trans and endorses “social transition”, in place despite the recent findings of the Cass review.

Implies a "harder" stance than what was actually stated. This is not the first time, nor the most severe such incident. See this and https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/10/under-25s-trans-care-must-be-slower-says-cass-report/ (visible URL intentional), where the Telegraph states that the report recommends some sort of restrictions on GAC for under-25s and not just for minors. This is false. Additionally, Telegraph coverage of the Cass Review caused problems at the Cass Review article, at the talk page of which the idea for this RfC started.[1] Flounder fillet (talk) 20:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Talk:Cass_Review/Archive_1#Don't_use_sources_by_The_Telegraph_and_The_Times
Implies a "harder" stance than what was actually stated. What is the stance that is being implied? As I have said, my understanding of the stance of the Cass Review is that it neither endorses nor rejects social transitioning, and the review treats social transitioning as an active intervention that doesn't have much evidence for or against it. The recommendation is not to affirm children that their decision is correct, but have a professional advising them on the risks and benefits of transitioning. Clearly you disagree, but you refuse to say how.
If you refuse to say what you believe what the findings of the Cass Review are, it's impossible for other editors to engage with your point and weigh it.
Deciding to criticize two unrelated articles doesn't affect the reliability of the first article, it just confuses the discussion.
But to address your point anyways, WP:RSHEADLINE says that headlines aren't reliable, so the "visible URL" containing the headline isn't citable in articles anyways (this is the only specific part of the article you bothered to say is unreliable). Additionally, those two articles were published the day before the official release of the report and the day of the report being released respectively. WP:RSBREAKING says that otherwise reliable sources can have serious inaccuracies because of the nature of breaking news, especially when summarizing a newly-released scientific publication. If you look into what the Cass Review says, on page 224, it says that 17 year olds are getting aged out of their childhood transgender care providers and that a follow-through service continuing up to age 25 would remove the need for transition at this vulnerable time and benefit both this younger population and the adult population. The creators of the Cass Review later had to clarify that the word "transition" in this context meant transfer, not gender transition.
That's the only other inaccuracy I could guess you were referring to; and it did recommend that under 25s not be subject to sudden changes in their care. This fits with the word "slow" which can refer to taking a longer time to complete an action (in this case the action being a transition to adult services).
A source having minor errors in an ambiguous situation during a breaking news story doesn't make it unreliable; it's already possible to exclude those two articles under WP:RSBREAKING without designating the Telegraph as unreliable. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 21:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
For the sake of not looking insane, I would like to state for the record that I agree with your understanding of the stance taken by the Cass Review final report. Anyways, with the two articles not being relevant to this discussion due to WP:RSBREAKING, this discussion about a nitpick is now meaningless and I concede and drop my point for the sake of not making this RfC swell faster than it needs to. Flounder fillet (talk) 23:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
In your last 4 links, do you plan on including a quote or any specific context about what is false about those stories? That would be useful in conjunction with reliable sources that describe the specific claims as being false.
Just dumping a bunch of links and asserting that it appears to be false without any elaboration isn't a very meaningful contribution. You can't seriously say that if you're voting "1" here, you're not looking hard enough when you haven't done enough research yourself to say with your own voice that a specific article in The Telegraph is false. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 19:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
I'm merely pointing out that a newspaper, which under its own byline (let alone its choice of bigotry in its opinion columns) posts wildly biased material, is probably not the best one to trust on the topic. Black Kite (talk) 19:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
So, you've conceded that your evidence does not show that The Telegraph publishes false information. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 19:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Don't put words in my mouth, please. There is evidence in this discussion that the DT posts misinformation on the topic. And if you think that a newspaper that posts stuff like Bindel's, or like this on a regular basis (did you look at the link I provided?) can in any way be reliable on trans issues is simply delusional. Yes, the DT does - very occasionally - print more balanced articles on the subject, but it's very noticeable that they usually still come with an agenda. Judging a newspaper on its own material - and that's material printed under its own byline as well as by its motley collection of "columnists" is hardly a massive leap. Black Kite (talk) 07:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Thanks for collecting the links. You've got a stronger stomach than I have to be able to wade through that much bile. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Option 3. My biggest hesitation is the lack of third party reliable sources labelling the Telegraph as misleading on transgender coverage. I could not support option 4 without that. But it is plainly obvious by the examples provided that the Telegraph is incredibly biased on transgender coverage, and I would prefer basically any other news source when citing sources on topics. The Telegraph routinely flaunts basic journalistic practice, engages in bad faith, and hides context regularly. I don't want them used as a source for this topic. I do not find the arguments for option one convincing - The Telegraph being biased may not immediately mean a source is unreliable, but they regularly post hoaxes as facts. -- Carlp941 (talk) 20:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
  • The Telegraph has been recognizably homophobic since the 70s, was protested even then based on that fact, and supported section 28.[40]
  • Chess's, lengthy comment, much like the Telegraph, somehow ignores the context that Thoughtful therapists (formerly the "Gender Exploratory Therapy Association") is a pro-conversion therapy group (see gender exploratory therapy). Chess claims James Esses was fired for GC beliefs, he was fired because his employer asked him to stop publicly campaigning against bans on conversion therapy using their organization's name - because he holds the WP:FRINGE view that conversion therapy does not include gender identity change efforts.[41]
  • Here is them running an entire article misgendering a transgender teenager and complaining that the school didn't misgender them because the parents asked them to.[42] In that same article, they use a euphemism for conversion therapy and misrepresent medical information to claim it's a beneficial treatment.[43]
  • Here I presented multiple academic papers criticizing the Telegraph's bias, homophobia, and transphobia. [44]
  • Here I analyzed the Telegraph's reporting on James Esses of "Thoughtful Therapists" and showed that the WP:DAILYMAIL covered it first with less bias and misrepresentation - unlike the Telegraph, the DailyMail 1) actually provided a definition of conversion therapy 2) noted that Esses tried to convince transgender children they weren't and 3) campaigned against bans on conversion therapy for trans kids [45]
  • Chess continues to insist that the Telegraph's reporting of the Cass Review was correct: I previously noted the issues, which the Cass Review noted in its own FAQ, chief of which is the Telegraph said the Review called for slower transitions for those under 25, when the review explicitly did not comment on trans healthcare for those over 18 ... [46]
TLDR: FFS they platform WP:QUACKS on trans topics all the time (specifically the conversion therapy promoting kind), say patently untrue shit, and academia has agreed they have an anti-LGBT bias for decades. Frankly, I'm flabbergasted some editors seem to think "journalistic objectivity" means every single article about trans people should quote transphobic quacks (without even getting to the fact the Telegraph disproportionately gives weight to the latter)... Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
@Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist: I'm not sure what incident between James Esses and "his employer" you're referring to, because as I said in my original comment, he was expelled from his master's degree before he could become a therapist. [47] Digging through your comment, I can assume you mean his volunteer position at Childline, something I have not brought up at this RfC. [48]
Calling my comment a WP:Wall of text (you linked WP:WOT which I assume was accidental) and coming up with fictitious scenarios in which I am wrong undermines everything you have said, especially since your entire !vote is cited to other comments you've made (which makes it difficult to verify the sources) instead of reliable sources. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 22:45, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Quoting your original comment, Chess claims James Esses was fired for GC beliefs. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 22:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
@Chess You're right, I made some mistake, so for the record:
My point still stands that you left out the context that he was fired for advocating a form of conversion therapy. You have not addressed any of my other points, only half addressed that one, and those diffs have the sources in them - you are free to click them. If you have more to address, please do so in the discussion section. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:44, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
You can't simultaneously criticize me for posting a WP:Wall of text and say I didn't include enough context. Virtually all of the sources summarize his views as "gender-critical" including the two you linked, so that's an accurate summary. [51] [52] The UK College of Psychotherapists also recognises the validity of the professional belief that children suffering from gender dysphoria should be treated with explorative therapy. [53] How can his views be WP:FRINGE if they were recognized by the professional organization regulating psychotherapists as being valid? You have not provided any evidence in terms of reliable sources to show that James Esses practices or supports conversion therapy. The most you have in your linked comment is a WP:DAILYMAIL (deprecated BTW, not reliable) article where he advocates against a legal ban on conversion therapy because it would have a chilling effect on psychotherapy. [54] You also have a Wikipedia article (not reliable) cited to sources that predate UKCP recognizing Esses' views as valid. There is nothing reliable that accuses James Esses or Thoughtful Therapists of promoting conversion therapy.
Anyways, you have now added some more context on James Esses' beliefs. How does that impact the reliability of The Telegraph? You haven't even attempted to answer that question beyond pointing to a single article from the Daily Mail that supposedly is more balanced than The Telegraph. Your reasoning is seemingly that for The Telegraph to be more reliable than the Daily Mail, every article ever published in The Telegraph must be of a higher quality than any article ever published by the Daily Mail in its history. That's not how reliability works; a stopped clock is right twice a day. A deprecated source putting out a really good article now and then doesn't reduce the quality of an article from a reliable source.
I have also said above that regardless of Esses' personal beliefs, quoting him in a news story doesn't mean that The Telegraph endorses his views. They are quoting him to give another side to a debate on transgender issues. Even if James Esses' is unreliable, that doesn't make The Telegraph unreliable for quoting him. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
How can his views be WP:FRINGE if they were recognized by the professional organization regulating psychotherapists as being valid Ah yes, the UKCP, the only medical organization in the UK to withdraw from the Memorandum of Understanding on Conversion Therapy, signed by dozens of medical/psychological/psychiatric bodies, because the UKCP thought it went too far in protecting kids.[55] - When you are the sole medical org disagreeing with the rest of them on the definition of conversion therapy, ya WP:FRINGE.
We can agree to disagree on whether or not it impugns a source's reliability to publish more blatantly biased pieces that omit information than the WP:DAILYMAIL. You think that's an excusable issue, I think it's a profound indicator of unreliability.
There is nothing reliable that accuses James Esses or Thoughtful Therapists of promoting conversion therapy. FFS Thoughtful Therapists is a rename of the "Gender Exploratory Therapy Asociation" - you are free to read the section on gender exploratory therapy in the article conversion therapy...[56] And if you go through Talk:Conversion therapy, you'll find consensus was that the UKCP's position defending it did not outweigh the sources saying it is conversion therapy.
How does that impact the reliability of The Telegraph? - In this diff where I compare the DAILYMAIL and telegraphs' coverage, I note The Telegraph does not actually mention A) how he treated kids who wanted to transition and called childline or B) how young these too young kids were. I also note contradictory and misleading statements the Telegraph makes, such as claiming he was fired for openly expressing GC views, when the issue was they objected to him campaigning mentioning his affiliation with Lifeline.[57]
They are quoting him to give another side to a debate on transgender issues. - I suppose we can also agree to disagree whether a newspaper frequently quoting WP:UNDUE WP:QUACKS on articles about a minority impugns it's reliability. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 03:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
You're speculating baselessly as to why UKCP didn't sign the MOU, and nowhere does this MOU say that "gender exploratory therapy" is conversion therapy. Here's the PDF: [58] It calls out ‘reparative therapy’, ‘gay cure therapy’, or ‘sexual orientation and gender identity change efforts’ by name, but does not mention gender exploratory therapy. Signing the MOU is neither an endorsement nor a repudiation of the claim that gender exploratory therapy is conversion therapy.
You haven't shown anything to suggest that the UKCP didn't sign that MOU because UKCP believes that gender exploratory therapy isn't conversion therapy, or that the UKCP endorses conversion therapy.
Meanwhile, the Mother Jones article says nowhere in its own voice that gender exploratory therapy is conversion therapy. It quotes Casey Pick, director of law and policy at the Trevor Project as saying that it is, but then it also quotes the UKCP + the interim Cass Report as saying that gender exploratory therapy is fine. So, that article doesn't take a position.
If we rank up the evidence, we have someone from the Trevor Project and an inconclusive talk page discussion at Talk:Conversion therapy saying gender exploratory therapy is conversion therapy. On the other hand, we have the United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy and the interim version of a systemic review saying otherwise. Do you have convincing reasons for why the regulatory body is wrong beyond any doubt? Because the burden of proof for WP:FRINGE isn't that it's just an alternative theory. You have to show that his views are pseudoscientific quackery, not just controversial, because as you said, a newspaper frequently quoting WP:UNDUE WP:QUACKS on articles about a minority impugns it's reliability.
And I'm unsure if you're interpreting this article correctly. [59] It clearly says As his online advocacy around safeguarding continued, he was told not to refer to the charity or his role there and later The NSPCC, Childline’s parent company, says "We respect people’s rights to hold different views, but volunteers can’t give the impression Childline endorses their personal campaigns" The article covers that James Esses believes he was kicked out of Childline for his views, and Childline says it was because he stated his affiliation while perpetuating his views. This isn't a contradiction. Either way, his views played a part, so the article covers that they agree on that point and then goes onto elaborate on where they disagree (Childline saying that it would've been fine to express those views if he hadn't mentioned his affiliation). If you're claiming his views played no part, you're proposing the article say something like James Esses was kicked out of Childline for publicly discussing his employment there end of story. This would ignore the core of the piece.
And the Daily Mail is unreliable for facts, so the Daily Mail asserting that James Esses said something isn't proof he said that thing. You need to provide a corroborating source to show that what is said in that article is true if you want people to believe it. Even so, the best two aspects of the Daily Mail are that Esses supposedly treated kids with gender exploratory therapy (which has nothing to do with him leaving Childline) and that the Daily Mail gave specific ages.
If you're asserting that the Telegraph misled readers by omitting these facts, how was the reader misled? What false belief would someone have by reading the Telegraph that they wouldn't get by reading the Daily Mail? Because it's not just about saying that the Daily Mail was more interesting to read, you have to show that the Telegraph was less reliable because it omitted those facts. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 05:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
You're speculating baselessly as to why UKCP didn't sign the MOU - 1) they withdrew their signature after signing it and 2) they're pretty explicit they left over concerns on how it applied to kids[60]
You haven't shown anything to suggest that the UKCP didn't sign that MOU because UKCP believes that gender exploratory therapy isn't conversion therapy, or that the UKCP endorses conversion therapy. - I never said they did.... I said they withdrew their signature because they disagreed with all the other medical orgs signing it on how to define conversion therapy, which is self-evident.
Do you have convincing reasons for why the regulatory body is wrong beyond any doubt? - WP:FRINGE applies, when basically every medical org and academic source says "this is conversion therapy", and your evidence otherwise is 1) a MEDORG that disagrees with the rest of them on what is conversion therapy and 2) a single sentence from a half finished report, then we go with "this is conversion therapy". Once again, read conversion therapy#gender exploratory therapy, which contains plenty of sources. And, you seem to have not noted that per the MotherJones piece, 1) the SAMHSA criticized "exploratory" therapy and 2) NARTH (yes, that NARTH) endorses it...
how was the reader misled? Apart from euphemizing conversion therapy and neglecting to mention he and TT campaign against bans against it? I want to note for the record I made a mistake, I mixed up GETA/"therapy first" with "thoughtful therapists" in previous comments since the membership/views overlaps so much and they endorse eachother often. Here's a big issue: Either way, his views played a part - nope, only in one way. The telegraph says, in their own voice in the article's 2nd sentence, "Esses was fired for openly expressing his views". Childline said "the issue was using our name, we offered him the chance to keep campaigning without it". The telegraph implies the views themselves were the issue, while it's clear it was using his Childline position for advocacy (immaterial of what position was advocated). Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:29, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
I said they withdrew their signature because they disagreed with all the other medical orgs signing it on how to define conversion therapy, which is self-evident. OK, so how is that evidence of WP:FRINGE? The background to the decision that you helpfully link now says they only signed because of confusion over the implementation. [61] Specifically, that At the time of signing the MoU in 2016, the understanding of the UKCP Board of Trustees was that it only related to over-18s, they later learned it applied to all ages, and that without the involvement of and full consultation with UKCP child psychotherapists and child psychotherapeutic counsellors, UKCP would not have signed the MoU if it was known to relate to children. In other words, they have to consult stakeholders before signing something affecting them. They didn't do the consultation, and now that stakeholders are complaining, they feel the need to withdraw. Not an endorsement or disendorsement of the scientific views of the MOU. While they're the odd one out, it doesn't appear to be because of WP:FRINGE views. I'll note that they still fully oppose conversion therapy for minors. [62]
Anyways, according to WP:RSPWP, Wikipedia is an unreliable source, because anyone can edit it and so you're just citing the result of a discussion on a talk page elsewhere on this site. That is why I have repeatedly asked for the underlying sources for your claims, given how contentious this topic is. Despite your repeated assertions that basically every medical org and academic source says "this is conversion therapy", you have only been able to provide that article, the Trevor Project, and now SAMHSA (which I missed and is the only medical organization you've cited). I've provided the United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy. It doesn't make sense to go in circles on whether gender exploratory therapy is conversion therapy since no new information will appear at this point IMHO.
The reason why I asked how was the reader misled? is because the goal of the WP:Reliable sources policy is to prevent false information from making its way onto Wikipedia.
All of the stuff above matters only to the extent it impacts The Telegraph's reliability, which is why I asked to see a connection between the Telegraph euphemizing conversion therapy and an incorrect belief that a reader might have by reading the article. As an example, we heavily discussed whether gender exploratory therapy is conversion therapy. Can you provide examples of how The Telegraph would be used to cite a false claim about conversion therapy? Keep in mind that WP:MEDPOP already recommends against citing the popular media without a high quality medical source to corroborate it.
So far, you've only provided one claim you say is false that could be cited to The Telegraph. It's that The telegraph implies the views themselves were the issue, while it's clear it was using his Childline position for advocacy. But this isn't what the article says, you acknowledge it's an implication you're drawing from the article. Our policy on WP:Verifiability already says contentious material about living persons (along with challenged or likely to be challenged statements) can only be sourced to content that directly supports the claim made, "directly support" meaning the information is present explicitly in the source.
It's already impossible to cite the implication you're referring to in an article, so what harm to the encyclopedia is prevented by designating The Telegraph as unreliable? Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 00:06, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
@Chess, I think you've posed the most important question. "What harm to the encyclopedia is prevented by designating The Telegraph as unreliable?" That really cuts to the heart of the matter. Pecopteris (talk) 00:12, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
1) There is a discussion section so the survey section doesn't get bloated. If you want to leave a few hundred more words in reply to this, please use it - otherwise I won't respond and make this even more difficult for the poor closer.
2) Since you refuse to click the links at Gender exploratory therapy: WPATH, ASIAPATH, EPATH, PATHA, and the USPATH say its conversion therapy[63] SAMHSA and the Trevor Project says its conversion therapy. These academic RS say its conversion therapy.[64][65][66][67] Here's one that notes it's been described as conversion therapy and notes there is no evidence whatsoever it is useful or effective.[68] Here are more RS calling it conversion therapy.[69][70] Here is the Southern Poverty Law Center calling it conversion therapy.[71] And here is a reliable source noting NARTH (the original pro conversion therapy lobbying group) endorses "exploratory" therapy and works with those pushing it.[72]
3) Here's a Telegraph piece saying the UKCP dropped out because of their support for "exploratory" therapy and this led to calls to change the board. Funny enough, it repeats the false claim wrt the Cass Review that "The former president of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health found that no one under 25 should be rushed into changing gender." (so your breakingnews argument from earlier doesn't apply) [73]
4) I should have said The telegraph impliesoutright says the views themselves were the issue, while it's clear it was using his Childline position for advocacy - they say Last year, he was ejected from his psychotherapist training course – three years in – for openly discussing his fears... weeks later, Childline removed him from his volunteer role as a counsellor on the same grounds[74]
5) Can you provide examples of how The Telegraph would be used to cite a false claim about conversion therapy? - See that per the quote in 4, you could cite the Telegraph to say Childline removed him for "openly discussing his fears" (as opposed to "for campaigning with their name, after they asked him to stop using their name but said he could keep campaigning").
6) What harm to the encyclopedia is prevented by designating The Telegraph as unreliable? - we'd keep out distortions of fact, promotion of WP:FRINGE, and WP:UNDUE weight towards nothingburgers the Telegraph has blow out of proportion. We could still use the Telegraph, if there was a good reason, but we could acknowledge their publishing on trans topics is tabloidlike at best these days. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 00:53, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
I'll keep this brief as you asked. The only specific use of the Telegraph you say is preventable by designating unreliability is point 4) as point 3) falls under WP:MEDPOP and I've argued 4) above.
Re: point 6), evaluating it on a case-by-case basis would be WP:MREL (use sometimes), not WP:GUNREL (use almost never), contradicting your !vote. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 03:45, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
And if you go through Talk:Conversion therapy, you'll find consensus was that the UKCP's position defending it did not outweigh the sources saying it is conversion therapy.
A local consensus arrived at by derailing discussion onto the FRINGE board trying and failing to establish UKCP and NHS England's service specification and the landmark Cass Review as FRINGE.
Please stop misusing WP:FRINGE in this hyperbolic way. It is exhausting. None of what you're complaining about is FRINGE. The Cass Review explicitly highlighted the weaponisation of discourse around "exploratory therapy" and "conversion therapy" and specifically stated that the continual conflation of the two was harmful.
Using any of this longstanding medical dispute over highly contested terminology to argue for the unreliability of a source is well out of scope for this RFC. Void if removed (talk) 11:03, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
  1. The article is a primary source. When relying on primary sources, extreme caution is advised. Wikipedians should never interpret the content of primary sources for themselves
  2. It presents it in a negative light without saying anything actually false. Claiming that Mermaids is actually leading troubled teenagers down wrong paths isn't a falsity as it's an opinion.
I've sampled Loki's examples and discussed them here. You're welcome to add on to the discussion about them there. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:25, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
The article is a primary source: The peer-reviewed academically published article in a scholarly journal dedicated to discursive interpretation is a primary source?
Claiming that Mermaids is actually leading troubled teenagers down wrong paths isn't a falsity as it's an opinion.: Either Mermaids does for the most part support families (as the Critical Discourse Studies articles states) or it for the most part pits youths against their families (as The Telegraph states); either affirming trans youths is good for their health or it's a 'wrong path' that's bad for them. At some point the premise that it's all mere opinion breaks down. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 18:46, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

The peer-reviewed academically published article in a scholarly journal dedicated to discursive interpretation is a primary source?

Yes, see WP:SCHOLARSHIP.
Let's say a cannabis advocacy group also provides forums and events for family of cannabis users. Would you support deprecating a source that claims it drives adolescents against family by supporting drug-using habits?
It is possible to support groups equally and pit them against each other, as Britain did to Hindus and Southern-Asia Muslims. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
see WP:SCHOLARSHIP: WP:SCHOLARSHIP states Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible, which is true. But this doesn't explain how the article isn't secondary. Primary research refers to experimental results, often in the hard sciences, where authors present data without synthesis. If the article had been a tabulation of hits for key terms across newspapers, that would likely be a primary source. But by taking on interpretive assessment, the article's authors present a secondary source.
Would you support: If after careful consideration of the evidence I concluded that the periodical consistently advanced claims out of step from an academic consensus around what was best for the health of people experience substance addiction, then I could see myself supporting MREL or GUNREL, depending on the severity of the deviation from reliable facts. (I don't usually support outright deprecation, because I think rendering ourselves unable to link to a source even when, say, verifying a quotation might be appropriate is unhelpful.)
as Britain did to Hindus and Southern-Asia Muslims: I'll have to ask you to excuse me for finding this comparison of trans affirming charity work to British imperialism in South Asia out of left field and unconvincing. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 02:05, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
For example, a paper reviewing existing research, a review article, monograph, or textbook is often better than a primary research paper. Review articles are secondary sources; research papers aren't except parts that cite another paper for the topic of that other paper.
If you believe that that's libel instead of opinion, I think we'd have to agree to disagree. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
research papers aren't except parts that cite another paper for the topic of that other paper: We'll also have to agree to disagree here as well. A paper that isn't experimentally generating primary data but is instead citing and interpreting primary data is a secondary source. I reiterate that this is a difference between hard sciences and social sciences/humanities; journal articles in the latter are often secondary sources. It also seems inconsistent to look at, say, a newspaper article based on interviews and consider that a secondary source while treating a research paper based on archival discovery and interpretation and to call it primary. To elaborate by comparison, this biographical article is a secondary source; the archival documents it cites are primary sources. Likewise, the Critical Discourse Studies article is a secondary sources; it treats the journalism it cites and examines as primary sources. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 18:31, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Does any of this really add anything new to the RFC? Once again I urge that you make any new comments in the discussion section. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:02, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
This counts towards whether the closers deem a note at RSP on being a biased source fit. And again, I don't see the point of putting only some reply chains in discussion, but I will not revert if anyone does. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:17, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
  • But here lies the question. Why use a newspaper with such a determinedly anti-trans viewpoint when there are multiple reliable sources that don't have that baggage? We wouldn't use a newspaper that was openly pushed racism or religious bigotry such as Islamophobia (hello Daily Mail). I can't help thinking that, even at Wikipedia, "gender-critical" views are the last piece of bias against groups that it seems to be OK to have. Black Kite (talk) 07:20, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
    That’s a question of WP:DUE, not reliability - and it is better assessed on a case-by-case basis. BilledMammal (talk) 07:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Now there's an interesting comment, as its subtext is exactly what the Telegraph does on regular occasions - insinuates that trans rights and women's rights are incompatible, despite that being obviously untrue. Black Kite (talk) 10:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
    The rights of (non-trans) women and trans people can be at odds, like the rights of any two groups. For example, if you think that a male-born person who looks exactly like a typical man, declares himself a woman without making any external change (surgery, hormones or even makeup and dress) to look like a woman, has a right to use women's bathroom then it might be at odds with the right of women to feel comfortable in their bathroom. Vegan416 (talk) 10:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
  • And of course, by using the most extreme example possible (how many times has this *actually* happened?) you're doing exactly what the anti-trans culture warriors at the Telegraph are doing as well. As can be determined by reading their transgender articles linked to above, it goes far further than bathrooms, which is only a small part of the issue. Black Kite (talk) 11:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
    I don't know how many times it happens. I don't even know in how many places such a person as I described would actually be allowed legally in women's bathrooms. It was a hypothetical. What is your position on this question by BTW? But in any case that example shows that trans rights taken to the extremes, can be at odds with women rights Vegan416 (talk) 11:53, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Precisely - "taken to the extreme". On that basis, the rights of any group could hypothetically clash with the rights of a given other group. But what the Telegraph and and its collection of culture warriors are doing is trying to limit trans rights without any criteria, purely because of their status as trans people. How do they do that? Well, with tropes like the bathroom one and the ones about what kids are taught in schools (like the one mentioned above, often spectacularly false). It's insidious and - along with its sudden fondness for climate change denial - it's not worthy of what used to be a well-regarded newspaper. Black Kite (talk) 12:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
    Can you show an example of the Telegraph saying that trans rights should be limited without any criteria, just because they are trans? I don't think I saw examples for this in this discussion, though as it's grown so long so fast I could have easily missed them. Vegan416 (talk) 13:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
I'm uncomfortable sidelining a source based on the lexical analysis of editors as to whether they are or are not accurate in the absence of third-party RS saying they are or are not accurate. Content analysis, as I've previously noted, does not involve pulling examples out of a hat. It's a methodical research process that requires (as a best practice, in case of newspapers) the assessment of two constructed weeks of content for every six months analyzed. That has not occurred here. In the absence of editors showing their OR as to the Telegraph's reliability meets generally accepted research standards, I'd need clear, compelling, and significant evidence from RS. And I'm not seeing that.
I don't trust reliability assessments based on a single editor (who will naturally have their own biases) unsystematically compiling a list of examples. (1) They're just too easy to consciously or unconsciously skew and (2) it's a level of scrutiny no major source would withstand. – Teratix ₵ 03:01, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
In case you are misunderstanding my wording as "as reliable as ALL British newspapers", no, I meant as reliable as the best-quality British Newspapers such as the Times and the Guardian. I don't notice any particular decline in its quality and nor do I note general agreement in these comments about that. JMCHutchinson (talk) 13:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
Jmchutchinson, you consider The Times, a newspaper that went out of its way to deadname Brianna Ghey (1, 2), to be one of the best British newspapers? I guess even the "best" are awful when it comes to trans issues. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 20:11, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
If deadnaming makes a source unreliable to you, then enough said; but listen to yourself! JMCHutchinson (talk) 06:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
A little bit up on this page, I was asked to come up with actual factual falsehoods perpetrated by Pink News if I was to assert that it shouldn't be seen as a reliable source due to its bias. I could ask the same of you with regard to The Times; "deadnaming" does not constitute factual falsehood as the name was accurate, and the question of whether they should have printed it or not is a matter for debate under moral philosophy, not a matter of whether they are saying false things. *Dan T.* (talk) 22:41, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
Another aspect has struck me. When a right-leaning newspaper like the Telegraph has an article relating to Wikipedia, I have been shocked and disappointed by the stong antipathy towards us expressed in the readers' online comments, emphasising our supposed left-leaning bias and unreliability. I don't know where this opinion comes from, and probably much of it is uninformed. But in some way "proscribing" a respected right-leaning source like the Telegraph is exactly the sort of flagship action that will confirm these people in their distrust of Wikipedia's neutrality. I think that some editors here are mainly concerned to make this a political statement, but it will be counterproductive in persuading those with whom you disagree, and completely unnecessary because in any case we should always be aware of any source's limitations. For Wikipedia to remain credible, we do need to consider a broad range of mainstream opinions. JMCHutchinson (talk) 06:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
There is a difference between expressing a mainstream opinion and presenting falsehoods as fact (explicitly or misleadingly). There are no shortage of sources that express anti-trans opinions without venturing into unreliability. Thryduulf (talk) 09:45, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
It is extremely not our job to persuade anyone of anything. In fact I'm fairly sure persuading people is in WP:NOT somewhere. As for alternative opinions, GUNREL doesn't prevent attributed opinion (we shouldn't have unattributed opinions anyway) and I don't believe there should be any room on this project for alternative facts. Alpha3031 (t • c) 15:32, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
That is a gross misrepresentation of what the tribunal determined happened in this case. For anyone who is interested in the facts, the full judgment is here [96]. Sweet6970 (talk) 16:55, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Much of the tribunal centred on a disciplinary process that began after Ms Adams sought clarity on how to respond to an abuse survivor who wanted to know if a support worker who identified as non-binary was a man or a woman.
The tribunal ruling noted that Ms Adams' view was that people using the centre should have a choice over who they receive support from on the basis of sex
Ms Adams has since gone on to work for Beira's Place (a clinic founded by JK Rowling which does not hire or serve or transgender women)[97] Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:16, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Option 2, per my usual view of it depends on what test the cite is intended for, what the WP:RSCONTEXT is. It certainly is a major venue and seems a reasonable source from prominence and availability. I don't see any reason to believe that it is always wrong to mandate exclusion always and forever, nor that it is perfectly right and comprehensive, nor that something appropriate for every line is always there, so ... it just depends on what the article text in question is. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:29, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Option 1 Nothing says sources cannot disagree. In such a situation we just say what all the sources are saying, we don't cherry-pick bits and pieces to include and exclude. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 18:37, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
I have to presume you mean all the reliable sources are saying, otherwise there would be no rsp or rsn. LunaHasArrived (talk) 08:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Yes, I thought that went without saying. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:27, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
All of which makes them scuzzy and morally bankrupt fearmongers (without rational perspective on the purpose of gender affirming care and the needs of the children it is meant to serve), and puts them on the wrong side of history and common decency. But all of which also says absolutely nothing about their editorial controls and reputation for fact checking. I'm not going to mince words: from my perspective, their editorial views on this subject run the gamut between histrionics and outright bigotry. But our policies are clear: not even extreme bias automatically invalidates a source as an WP:RS. SnowRise let's rap 11:24, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Going undercover to expose things is a time-honored journalistic technique. As for what is the right or wrong side of history, it's not our place as Wikipedians to try to steer history the right way... only to produce an encyclopedia that reflects things as they actually are, not as you want them to be. *Dan T.* (talk) 15:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
For context: this investigation prompted the charity regulator to investigate child safeguarding concerns, which weren't dismissed as "an attempt to make them look bad" but actually escalated to a statutory inquiry into the charity's governance, which is still ongoing to this day. None of this is actually about unreliability, and smacks of WP:IDONTLIKEIT Void if removed (talk) 08:34, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
It should be noted that the escalation into an inquiry was explicitly stated to not be a finding of wrongdoing LunaHasArrived (talk) 10:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
But neither was it a finding of no wrongdoing - the purpose of the ongoing inquiry is to determine whether there was or was not wrongdoing. Thryduulf (talk) 11:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
I feel like "not even extreme bias automatically invalidates a source" is being used as a thought-terminating cliche here. Yes, it's true that not even extreme bias automatically invalidates a source. However, if you've identified extreme bias in a source, WP:BIASED explicitly instructs editors to consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources.
So, what are the normal requirements for reliable sources? Well, WP:RS says that Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Does a paper that endorses conspiracy theories like gender ideology, that refuses to correct a major error that it published five sensationalist articles about, that publishes articles every day intended to mislead the reader about trans people, really have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy? Loki (talk) 18:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
I feel like "not even extreme bias automatically invalidates a source" is being used as a thought-terminating cliche here. yes, there is a disappointingly large amount of "bias doesn't automatically mean unreliable" being understood as/claimed to mean "bias cannot mean unreliable", which WP:RSP and any discussion regarding state-controlled media demonstrate is simply incorrect. Thryduulf (talk) 18:54, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

bias cannot mean unreliable

Our policies are very clear; bias alone cannot mean unreliable. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Bias in sources and Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Biased or opinionated sources. If you see it as a thought terminating cliche that is because our policies have made it so, and before you can declare sources like the Telegraph unreliable on grounds of their bias you need to change our policy. BilledMammal (talk) 23:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Bias does not always mean unreliable, but that does not mean that bias can never mean unreliable per the very pages you cite and the ones I cited in the comment you replied to. Whether or not the Telegraph's bias is sufficiently strong that it makes it unreliable is a completely separate question, but it is a question that can be and needs to be asked and answered. Thryduulf (talk) 23:53, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
It does, though. Bias does not, on its own, mean a source is unreliable, no matter how severe the bias is. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control, a reputation for fact-checking, and the level of independence from the topic the source is covering. So the statement that bias alone can mean a source is unreliable is flat out untrue per our policies. Bias can mean it deserves a closer look to confirm it complies with other parts of the reliable source policy. And it may even be more likely that biased sources do not comply with the RS policy. But if there are no violations of the actual policy, then no matter how strong the bias is, it is not an unreliable source. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 00:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Nobody is saying that as a matter of Wikipedia policy a theoretical source that is perfect other than being biased is therefore unreliable. However, we do not have a theoretical source that is perfect other than being biased. In the real world, sufficiently extreme bias causes bending of the facts. And we know this has happened in this case because I've already linked to several cases of the Telegraph bending the facts to suit its bias. Loki (talk) 00:33, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
And the "several cases" you did present have been thoroughly refuted - as evidenced by both a turn of the tide in !votes for options 3/4 versus 1/2 after they were refuted, and also the fact that very few !votes after they were refuted have actuallly bothered to address the refutation of your claims, instead choosing to just claim "because they're biased" or similar. And those !votes will be properly weighted during the close, I trust. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 03:48, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
How is the use of the term "gender ideology" itself endorsing a conspiracy theory? The conspiracy theory would be the existence of a cabal, which I haven't seen the Telegraph endorse. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

refuses to correct a major error that it published five sensationalist articles about

Are you referring to the "cat litter box hoax"? First, it is indisputable that it never claimed the school provided cat litter boxes. Second, it also never claimed that a student identified as a cat - claiming that it did requires a misunderstanding of presuppositions, as shown above. Finally, it hasn't actually been disproven that a student didn't identify as a cat; otherkin are a real thing, and the Ofcom report didn't comment on that - all we have is the claim of the school, a claim the telegraph did report on once it was made. BilledMammal (talk) 23:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Changed my mind after reading other comments and reviewing other sources on WP:RSP. There's no "single topic deprecation" for anything on there, however I don't think its 'technically' impossible, reading through WP:DEPS, but deprecation is obviously designed for an entire source, not a topic. The entirety of The Telegraph should obviously not be deprecated. If Fox News, on the subject of politics and science, is only going to be "generally unreliable" and not deprecated, then that's almost an impossible bar to clear and certainly not cleared here. Changing to option 3 for procedural reasons only, I still think the source should not be used at all with regards to trans issues and removed if it is. MarkiPoli (talk) 17:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
The point of deprecation is to automate the process of warning users a source is unreliable. Any !vote for Option 4 needs to explain how the edit filter + autoreversion bot will determine what articles fall under "trans issues".
The best way I can see of doing that for a topic area is to look at the categories an article is in (anything in Category:Transgender perhaps?), but nobody !voting Option 4 has offered to code that or offered a proof of concept to show it's possible.
If Option 4 gains consensus, the specific way to implement Option 4 will also need to gain consensus. This is something the closer should note. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 04:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Telegraph on trans issues)

I don't vote here because I don't have time to study the sources about the reliability issue. But I have 2 comments to make: (a) It was said in other discussions that option 4 is technically not possible for specific issues because of the filter. So it seems to be irrelevant. b) the question of whether trans men and women are men or women is not a factual question, but rather a question of definition. Factual questions are if certain people feel they are a man or a woman, if they have a penis or a vagina, XX or XY chromosomes, etc. But the question of which of these criteria should be used to decide who should be called man or woman is not a factual question, but rather a semantic/legal/linguistic question of definitions. The meaning of the words "man" and "woman" is a social construct. And in fact many progressives think that the binary division to "man" and "woman" is wrong, and we should look at sex and gender as a spectrum. Vegan416 (talk) 10:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Procedural question: It's less than two years since the last RfC on this where the consensus was overwhelming for option 1. Can I check if there are things that have changed since then or other reason to relitigate? Not completely clear from the arguments above. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Having watched the last full RFC, and the RFC on this specific issue that happened shortly afterwards, their were several participants who felt the RFCs were rushed into. This meant they couldn't present their arguments properly, I'm guessing this is part of the reason for the extensive discussion at #The Telegraph and trans issues before this RFC was started. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:53, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
ActivelyDisinterested is correct. The last RFC was a rush job with no RFCBEFORE, which of course meant that the status quo had a strong advantage. Loki (talk) 12:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Can anyone point to a good article on trans subjects in the Telegraph? Because WP:RSOPINION can always be called to allow use of a generally unreliable source, but what are they bringing to the table that makes them a reliable source? Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs. 18:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Here's one I grabbed today. [144] It covers a transgender judge and her resignation. Here's another one also published today. [145] I'm going to assert that these are good because they cover the story in a balanced way and the assertions they've made are true. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 19:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
The first one is definitely better than average for the Telegraph but it still contains minor factual inaccuracies. The one I noticed immediately is that it says that the Cass Review warned against giving hormone drugs to under-18s and rushing children identifying as transgender into treatment they may later regret, when it did no such thing. It said that there was not enough evidence to support puberty blockers, not hormones, and recommended that the NHS should only prescribe them to trans kids as part of a study.
The second one is bad mostly because it's not news. It's a news article about a tweet, and not a tweet by a significant figure but JK Rowling arguing with people on Twitter again. It makes few factual claims and they're hard to fact check because they're almost all quotes or policy positions of various parties. But even reporting on this indicates significant bias. Loki (talk) 20:30, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
"I don't think this is news" is not an argument against something being RS. As for the Cass report, it recommends The option to provide masculinising/feminising hormones from age 16 is available, but the Review recommends extreme caution. There should be a clear clinical rationale for providing hormones at this stage rather than waiting until an individual reaches 18. Every case considered for medical treatment should be discussed at a national Multi- Disciplinary Team (MDT). This is an entirely reasonable paraphrase of warns against giving hormone drugs to under-18s, there is a clear difference between "warns against" and "forbids". And the report clearly states the evidence for the safety or otherwise of hormone therapy for teenagers is lacking.Boynamedsue (talk) 22:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

We're not even that many days into this discussion and I already see a few of the same names popping up over and over. Echoing something which someone said in another recent discussion on this page, I would like to gently suggest to everyone that if you haven't persuaded your conversational partner after a couple back-and-forths, it seems unlikely either of you will persuade the other after more back-and-forth, and it might be more fruitful to just step back and say 'OK, we disagree on this'. (Some of the people doing this are voting option 1, some are voting option 3; this is an omnidirectional plea...) It's in your own interest, not only to have more time for other things, but to avoid getting accused by each other of bludgeoning, a thing which people in heated discussions have historically been wont to accuse each other of. -sche (talk) 03:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, some editors love to hear the sound of their own voice. There's no cure for conceit and self-importance. Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 07:34, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

This Telegraph article on the upcoming play about Rowling seems pretty balanced. It seeks out the creators of the play to find out what their motives were in creating it, rather than just talking to the gender-critical people who dislike it without even having seen it. It also labels Breitbart "the far right US website" when it's referenced, going against some of the commentary here that implies that they're frequently referencing extremist views without labeling them as such. *Dan T.* (talk) 16:16, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

"Generally unreliable" doesn't mean that every article they publish is bad. It's "unreliable for facts" not "they are liars". Literally, cannot be relied on. Loki (talk) 16:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
As well as this it seems to much more be about theatre than transgender people, and the auther seems to mostly do theatre reviews for the telegraph. LunaHasArrived (talk) 16:34, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Without a very clear and universally-agreed-upon definition of what qualifies as a trans issue, every issue is a trans issue. On that basis I oppose the very fact of asking this question. I also think that once a clear definition of "trans issue" has been fully agreed upon by everyone, this question will probably have become unnecessary. I don't read the Telegraph and I don't know what kind of paper it is, but this question seems like just an attempt to discredit them, and not a good-faith discussion. TooManyFingers (talk) 15:35, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Good point, but hard to resolve; quite a lot of motivated reasoning goes into people's claims of what does or doesn't fit in a given category; to somebody obsessed with something, everything ends up related to their pet issue, while to somebody trying to rules lawyer a topic ban, nothing is. (On the subject of being obsessed with a topic, Microsoft recently reprogrammed a version of their AI chatbot to be obsessed with the Golden Gate Bridge and the results were amusing... no matter what you asked it, the answer ended up centering on that bridge.) *Dan T.* (talk) 19:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
Certainly what I said is hard to resolve, because I was showing how the OP's question is illegitimate and unanswerable. For the OP's question to be legitimate, we would need an unequivocal answer to my question first. I can't like or dislike the Telegraph because I literally haven't seen it, but OP has asked a leading and tendentious question pretty much the same as the classic example "When did you stop beating your wife". There can never be an appropriate answer when the question is wrong. TooManyFingers (talk) 06:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
This feels like a very silly objection to me. What's the clear and universally-agreed-on definition of a "gender-related dispute or controversy" for the purposes of WP:GENSEX? Does every article fall under WP:GENSEX? Because by my reading "gender-related dispute" is significantly broader than "trans issue". Loki (talk) 16:07, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
I'd like to have an example of something that has clear and universally-agreed-on definition, if we're requiring that for some reason. Can someone please tell me if there is a clear and universally-agreed-on definition of "politics and science" in WP:FOXNEWS? How about "controversial" in WP:ANADOLU? If anyone really tried to give me a definition for any of those phrases, I will have to respectfully disagree with their definition. So it looks like we really gotta delete RSP as a whole. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 17:15, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
If you want an answer you can ask at the humanities reference desk. Flounder fillet (talk) 17:45, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Notifications (Telegraph on trans issues)

Shortcut to survey: #Survey (Telegraph on trans issues)

Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist, Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d, Masem, LunaHasArrived, Hydrangeans, BilledMammal, Remsense, Barnards.tar.gz, Boynamedsue, Simonm223, Licks-rocks, FortunateSons, Aquillion, Silverseren, Black Kite, Chetsford, Snokalok, Spy-cicle, Crossroads, DanielRigal
Springee, Skyshifter, Fred Zepelin, Alaexis, JPxG, OwenBlacker, Colin, Sceptre, Carlp941, K.e.coffman, Cortador, Tristario, Bobfrombrockley, DFlhb, Adam Cuerden
Alanscottwalker, TFD, Void if removed, Chess, NadVolum, Raladic, Philomathes2357, North8000, Maddy from Celeste, Pyxis Solitary. Loki (talk) 01:50, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Fixing pings: Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist, Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d, Masem, LunaHasArrived, Hydrangeans, BilledMammal, Remsense, Barnards.tar.gz, Boynamedsue, Simonm223, Licks-rocks, FortunateSons, Aquillion, Silverseren, Black Kite, Chetsford, Snokalok, Spy-cicle, Crossroads, DanielRigal Springee, Skyshifter, Fred Zepelin, Alaexis, JPxG, Loki (talk) 16:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
OwenBlacker, Colin, Sceptre, Carlp941, K.e.coffman, Cortador, Tristario, Bobfrombrockley, DFlhb, Adam Cuerden Alanscottwalker, TFD, Void if removed, Chess, NadVolum, Raladic, Philomathes2357, North8000, Maddy from Celeste, Pyxis Solitary. Loki (talk) 16:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Proposed moratorium (Telegraph on trans issues)

As this is once again drifting towards the inevitable and obvious conclusion of "biased but reliable", can we please have at least a 2 year moratorium on threads on the Telegraph and trans issues? We get that a lot of users think the opinions of many Telegraph writers are despicable, but there has been no evidence of factual inaccuracy presented over two threads and thousands upon thousands of words. This is an insane time sink, users would be better off improving articles than constantly fighting a culture war at RS noticeboard.Boynamedsue (talk) 18:42, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Support three years - but apply the moratorium to all discussions about whether British sources are reliable for transgender topics. The nominator has made it clear they wish to hold similar RFC’s on other British sources, but RFCs last year held that those sources were reliable and given this result it’s clear that another RFC on those sources will only waste the communities time. BilledMammal (talk) 18:47, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
No pre-close summaries, please. As consensus in RFCs entails more than a straight vote, this discussion requires a careful close that considers how to weigh arguments based on evidence and grounding in policies and guidelines. Numerous participants (full disclosure: myself included) aver that evidence of distortions and unreliability is there, WP:IDHT-esque replies and bludgeoning from Option 1 !votes notwithstanding. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 18:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Well, the arguments presented by the option 3+ are all the same "nobody who holds this opinion could be reliable". There's really no basis in our policies for that. I don't see any bludgeon on either side here, could you maybe suggest who you mean?--Boynamedsue (talk) 19:47, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
the arguments presented by the option 3+ are all the same "nobody who holds this opinion could be reliable". There's really no basis in our policies for that: This misrepresents plenty of the option 3+ arguments. They do not universally, as you claim, focus on matters of opinion. Plenty, including OP's and my own, point out assessments of the Telegraph by reliable sources (such as scholarship published by academic presses like Taylor & Francis and Bloomsbury) that find its accuracy on trans coverage wanting. Loki collected and shared numerous examples of articles where the Telegraph makes errors in its coverage of trans topics. The claim that all option 3+ arguments are merely claiming that "nobody who holds this opinion could be reliable" is only true if one reduces findings and consensuses in relevant academic fields to mere opinions. Meanwhile, numerous option 1 arguments circle around the same point that bias isn't necessarily reliability. It's true that bias doesn't necessarily lead to unreliability, but that doesn't on its own mean a biased source is reliable.
I don't see any bludgeon on either side here, could you maybe suggest who you mean?: I suppose the first example that comes to mind is Chess, who's contributed around 7,000 words to the discussion across more than 30 comments (counting in the Survey (Telegraph on trans issues) and Discussion (Telegraph on trans issues) sections. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 00:25, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
I'm surprised Chess is the first example to come to mind, considering that Loki (on the "Option 3" side of the debate) contributed a similar number of words across 47 comments. BilledMammal (talk) 01:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
It is my opinion that WP:BLUDGEON is too often misused. BLUDGEON is about repeating the same arguments in replies across many commenters like spamming, not responding to others without repeating the same arguments already brought up at length. I don't see how anyone here is bludgeoning. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:57, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Loki made approximately approximately as many comments (I counted 35 from Chess and 37 from Loki) but contributed ~4,000 words (counting the Survey and Discussion sections). Chess wrote nearly twice as much. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 02:24, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Even when limited to the "Survey" and "Discussion" sections, though I don't know why we would limit, you're missing some from Loki; they contributed ~5,000 words (calculated by copying and pasted all of their comments from those sections into a word document).
I think you're missing my point - if there was bludgeoning from some Option 1 editors, then there was also bludgeoning from some Option 3 editors, and it is inappropriate to focus just on the former. However, I agree with Aaron Liu that no one appears to have been bludgeoning. BilledMammal (talk) 02:31, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
I don't know why we would limit: Including text contributed after those two would artificially inflate the Loki's word count because of all the pings that Loki made so as to appropriately inform relevant editors. So I counted just comments and copied text just from Survey and Discussion, which are the thread sections this thread section (Proposed moratorium) is principally talking about. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 02:49, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Could someone link to the Taylor & Francis thing? I can't seem to find it. The Bloomsbury book linked to by Loki is limited to a preview, and the search results from the bottom button don't contain anything other than reports of bias. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:54, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Here. It doesn't say what they think it says, though - it makes no comment about reliability, and even on bias only says that it is aligned with the rest of the British press. BilledMammal (talk) 02:00, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
I've seen that, but I mistook the giant Routlege logo (which apparently also says it's part of T&F) to be the sole publisher. 🤦 Thanks. I'd agree that these sources do not talk about reliability. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:12, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Reply on Critical Discourse Studies centralized to #c-BilledMammal-20240616075000-Aaron_Liu-20240615155000. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:21, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
I'm aware that people think I'm commenting too much, so I try to only refute new points. I don't think you can take word count in isolation; you have to consider what is written. Part of why my comments are long is because I try to directly link source content to applicable policy. That involves quotes and analysis of such. I believe that is more valuable than posting a bunch of links, saying they violate policy, and not explaining precisely how or why.
And while there are some people that disliked my !vote as a wall-of-text, it has also been continuously cited throughout the RfC even by Option 3 !voters as an exhausting amount of good work that improved the quality of the discussion.
I strongly disagree with WP:NOSUMMARIES and maybe I'll write a counteressay. This is a lengthy discussion and brief highlights of actively debated topics could be useful. e.g. I devoted much to the subject of chestmilk or the IOC study that virtually nobody cared about after day 1 of the RfC. How would everyone feel about a new "weighing" section, given that Hydrangeans says this discussion requires a careful close that considers how to weigh arguments based on evidence and grounding in policies and guidelines? This would also reduce the need for people to reiterate their existing points in the survey section. This would achieve the goal of reducing bludgeoning. As a side note, if people here agree I will be moving this !vote down to the "summaries" section. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 22:48, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
How would everyone feel about a new "weighing" section (or "summaries" as you call it in your last sentence): I suppose you can probably guess I would object to such a section, since I don't disagree with WP:NOSUMMARIES. Making a new section like that seems to amount to asking everyone to once again explain their positions and restate their comments. We expect a good close to read the entire discussion; why have the discussion, and then also a recapitulated discussion? Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 23:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
I agree with Hydra here. Closers should be expected to do their due diligence normally. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:20, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Boynamedsue, I would like to register my objection at your characterisation that my statement on this topic is the same "nobody who holds this opinion could be reliable". My computer is currently broken so that is all I will say on the matter. Alpha3031 (t • c) 08:33, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
I'm seeing no clear consensus for any option, and no "inevitable and obvious conclusion". Involved parties should refrain from trying to influence the closer towards their point of view. Oppose any moratorium on discussions that present new evidence. Thryduulf (talk) 19:00, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
The current vote count puts option 1 about 20 votes ahead of option 3+, and most of the option 2 votes are essentially "it is biased, but largely factual", which is what everybody who has voted option 1 says. The quality of arguments for 3 that are actually based in policy are exceptionally low, as last time. As for "attempting to influence the closer" to stop constant repeating of this nonsense... well, I don't think that is against any of our policies.--Boynamedsue (talk) 19:47, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
In case you need a reminder, this is not a vote. When you actually read the comments many (but not all) in support of both 1 and 2 are saying it's biased to the point that you need to be aware of it and explicitly consider how it affects issues like balance and reliability - if you read only the Telegraph's presentation you could very easily end up being mislead as to what actually happened or what opinions about a thing are from nutjobs and which are from impartial experts. That's textbook "additional considerations apply". Thryduulf (talk) 20:30, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
It's not a vote, but 20 more people thinking one thing than another is a reflection of a fairly strong consensus.Boynamedsue (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
If you treat bolded words as the sole evidence of what people think that might be true. If you read what they actually say (i.e. treat it as something other than a vote) then that's not necessarily so. Thryduulf (talk) 21:07, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Well, "the people didn't understand their votes" is unlikely to make it into the closer's summary. People who choose option 1 are saying it can be used in our articles for factual information and attributed opinions where due.Boynamedsue (talk) 21:25, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Obviously "people didn't understand their votes" is unlikely to make it into the closers summary because (most) people haven't cast votes, they have expressed nuanced opinions that may or may not include some words in bold. The job of the closer is to read the entirety of all the opinions expressed (not just the bolded words) and, based on those words and the relative strength of the arguments made, come to a conclusion about what consensus the discussion arrived at. Thryduulf (talk) 22:21, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Is anyone suggesting that one ought to read only the Telegraph's accounts of the issue and never anything else? Getting a well-rounded view is best achieved by reading multiple sources with different biases and points of view. *Dan T.* (talk) 22:32, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Ehhh, I'd rather have it per-editor instead of per the entire area. According to RSP (and links among some of the rationales), the last RfC was in 2022, two years ago. That RfC also had a lot less BEFORE, research, and arguments presented. This RfC unfolded quite differently. Until a ton of people decide that starting new RfCs that parrot the exact same arguments here is a good idea for them, I'd oppose a moratorium. Unless there is quite active harm done, I'd rather the rules to allow for the most scenarios, like if The Telegraph got bought out by the Daily Mail. I strongly oppose BilledMammal proposal for a hold on all British sources, especially not for 3 years. We do not know what the future holds, and I'd rather we block Loki from this page if it comes to that. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:15, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
FYI, this moratorium wouldn’t stop an RFC being held on the Telegraph’s overall reliability, such as if it was bought but the Daily Mail. BilledMammal (talk) 21:20, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Good point, thanks. Still, there are events much more plausible that could cause the Telegraph's factual reporting's reliability in just the transgender area to take a nosedive. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:21, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Oy, why me? I voted in the last RFC but didn't start it. Loki (talk) 22:07, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Part of BilledMammal's argument for the moratorium is your intention to hold more RfCs, trickster. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:13, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
I wouldn't on other sources if the Telegraph can't get through (because the Telegraph is way more blatant about this than any other paper), and I wouldn't hold another one on the Telegraph without new information sufficient to convince people who weren't convinced by the evidence above.
Or in other words, I'm not stupid. The definition of insanity is to try the same thing and expect different results, after all. Loki (talk) 03:56, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, that's what I thought. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:16, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
I would disagree. If Loki wants to start a new RfC on The Times that's fine; assuming the evidence for that RfC would be based mostly on academic sources criticizing it rather than analysis of its content to divine bias.
Blocking would only be in order after a third RfC or so after there's been a consensus that there's too many discussions. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 22:56, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
...if it comes to that. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:20, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Obvious oppose. Clearly there has been additional evidence of unreliability, as many more people have been voting options 2 or 3, and vastly more people have been acknowledging some degree of bias. Loki (talk) 21:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
I would like to also point out that the conclusion last time was not "biased but reliable", it was just "reliable", so there has already been a change in outcome here. Loki (talk) 22:06, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Every source is biased. Period. Biased but reliable is thus ultimately no different from reliable (without acknowledging the bias). You are on a crusade to have "biased" recognized as "unreliable", and that's your right - but you cannot claim that editors acknowledging biased makes it anything other than "reliable". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 23:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
There are many sources on WP:RSP that have a note about their bias. It's also a fairly frequent outcome here that a discussion is closed with a "reliable but editors think it's biased" or "no consensus but editors think it's biased", which is what leads to those notes on RSP. Loki (talk) 01:42, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
And you're assuming there needs to be a note. From my reading, the consensus seems to be that while it does have a bias in what it covers, that there isn't a significant bias in how it covers it. You are on a crusade to get sources that aren't uber-friendly towards transgender persons removed from Wikipedia. And you are falling afoul of trying to right great wrongs by continuing to bludgeon other editors until they permit you to do so. That's not permissible, and shouldn't be. This RfC has had so many people opine on it and virtually all possible relevant things that the Telegraph has reported be discussed - and nobody - not even you, should be permitted to continue opening discussions until you get the result you want - unless significant further evidence comes to light in the future - but not the past. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 02:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
A bias in what it covers is a bias in how it covers it a la WP:UNDUE. Nearly all !votes above operate under the assumption that the Telegraph is biased in its coverage of trans topics.
And as I said above, I don't think anyone is bludgeoning here. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:16, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
UNDUE applies to the content of WP articles, not to our sources. In fact, UNDUE was referenced by multiple people supporting Option 1/2 - we cannot simply ignore a source because it is biased in the things it chooses to cover. And again, bias in what a source covers does not mean it covers the things it chooses to cover in a biased manner. Many of the supporters of option 1/2 have also clarified that they do not believe the bias in choice of what stories to cover should impact the discussion. You may think nobody is bludgeoning, but I didn't even say that. I simply said that it's clear that some editors are on a crusade to continue RfCs until the outcome they desire happens. That's not bludgeoning by definition, but new discussions should not be created over and over again to get the outcome one desires. If new evidence comes out in the future, fine. But the past has already been presented and discussed multiple times now (including the above), and at some point you, Loki, and others need to simply move on and accept that your viewpoint that WP should ignore sources that don't fit your worldview is not one shared by WP editors as a whole. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 03:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
What I'm saying with wikt:a la UNDUE is that covering the partial truth is biased coverage in every way and does not stop the source from being marked as biased on RSP.

You may think nobody is bludgeoning, but I didn't even say that.

You directly claimed to Loki that you are falling afoul of trying to right great wrongs by continuing to bludgeon other editors until they permit you to [remove sources biased against trans-topics], unless you didn't mean to refer to his conduct in this discussion. I doubt that this discussion would not dissuade Loki to repeat the same RfCs; this is also his first. I'm sure that we have existing processes to stop people from instantly just trying to repeat the same thing again.
Also, I !voted for NREL with a reminder to prefer more unbiased sources if possible, not "ignoring" it. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
I meant the fact that this is happening over and over in general, not to refer to Loki themselves unless they open another RfC without significant new information. Apologies. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 01:43, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Twice is not "over and over again". Thryduulf (talk) 01:50, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Ah ok, thanks. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:56, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
I think accusing people of righting great wrongs is liable to escalate a situation (something I discovered at the last RfC) and is mostly unnecessary here. There's only one person who I felt necessary to call out and that's because their !vote was "Option 3 advances trans rights", so I don't think they'd dispute that characterization. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 01:32, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
There were two rushed RFCs on the Telegraph that left some editors unsatisfied. I hope that this one gets a clear close that, barring the seemingly inevitable closure review, brings at least some clarity to the issue. I would be against a moratorium, but I would hope anyone starting a new discussion would understand that editors could have little patience for it unless new and clear problems have arisen. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:41, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Support but unnecessary - there's already procedures for removing or speedily closing discussions that don't produce any new evidence. There is no need for a moratorium, but the noticeboard (as well as other places) should be watched by editors, and quickly closed if they are not presenting any actual evidence of misconduct/falsehoods that hasn't already been discussed to death here. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 23:45, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
The problem is that this whole thread is not based on evidence of falsehood either, but of bias. So we risk having another complete waste of time in 6 months based on, I don't know, a comment piece by Christopher Biggins and a news article collecting mean things said on twitter about JK Rowling.--Boynamedsue (talk) 05:08, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Some editors thought the evidence presented was evidence of unreliability rather than bias. That’s been thoroughly debated and refuted now. So the links presented and thoroughly discussed here shouldn’t be permitted to be rehashed in a future discussion. If new evidence comes out however, that should be allowed to be presented and discussed. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 18:28, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
That’s been thoroughly debated and refuted now. Thoroughly debated, yes. Refuted, that's not clear-cut - some people think so, others disagree. Please stop prejudging the close. Thryduulf (talk) 18:55, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
This noticeboard is for the discussion of reliable sources, not other editors. So far apart from one off the wall comment this obviously contentious discussion has been quite civil. Yet somehow this particular thread has quickly turned to editors sniping at each other. To be blunt knock it off. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:08, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Oh, don't be a party pooper. There are editors who need a ruckus so that they can squabble, point fingers, and thrive in victimhood fire. 👈 ☝ 👉 👇 Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 01:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
It's my party potty, and I'll poop if I want to. *Dan T.* (talk) 17:52, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
😄 😉 Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 00:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Btw, I support a moratorium. There needs to be a shut-off valve for the predictable and expected RfCs against reliable sources that become the target of ideological GENSEX watchdogs. Any time a source is deemed to have run afoul of the gender identity Nirvana, an RfC pops up. Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 01:22, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Irrespective of moratorium, if the close does not go "unreliable" I'd suggest that a future attempt should as much as possible focus on Telegraph stories from this point forward. If it is generally unreliable (or moving to greater unreliability), then that should be demonstrable in the balance across its ongoing output, not cherry picked from its entire history of output. Bluntly, I do not want to relitigate the catgender story again in six months, or indeed ever again. Void if removed (talk) 09:19, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Unless that story is directly relevant to something that happens between now and the next discussion (and for many reasons unrelated to Wikipedia I sincerely hope it isn't) then this is something I can get behind. Thryduulf (talk) 10:33, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
The question I'll ask to supporters is, how would this moratorium prevent disruption? The opener understands that more RfCs right now would be a bad idea, and I don't see much evidence of other people planning to start discussions. What I fear, is that setting this 2 year moratorium will just create an focal point for editors to put an event on their calendar in 2026 to have another RfC regardless of the situation then. I believe this is a more likely scenario than someone starting another RfC on The Telegraph in the next year or so. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 01:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
I fear, is that setting this 2 year moratorium will just create an focal point for editors to put an event on their calendar in 2026 to have another RfC regardless of the situation then. That seems a very valid point. Perhaps it is better that the closer should say something along the lines that evidence of bias should not be used to make the case against reliability in future?Boynamedsue (talk) 07:26, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
I'd disagree, since even I agree that bias can affect reliability, just not inherently. The arguments presented here were that The Telegraph has such a strong bias that it lies, and designating as WP:GUNREL would mean editors can't spread those lies in the transgender topic area.
So, for a new RfC, I'd like to see much stronger evidence for how bias caused The Telegraph to lie in a way that we might inadvertently cite. Examples could be conclusive endorsement of the actual litter boxes in schools hoax; which is that students are receiving litterboxes in washrooms. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 00:56, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. Much of the info Loki has collected shows them publishing flat misinformation Snokalok (talk) 09:20, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Oppose there’s a difference between “obvious time sink” and “I disagree with everyone who voted against reliability and want to invalidate their votes through bureaucratic interference” Dronebogus (talk) 15:14, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Comment this is a ridiculously deep time sink. There is really no nice way to say this - no non-POV-based argument has been offered in favor of deprecation, and a collective total of hundreds of hours of editor time has been sunk into this debate, which has gone nowhere and shows no signs of going anywhere in the future. On the bright side, the fact that this conversation has gone on so long is proof that Wikipedia is one of the most trans-friendly places on the internet. If it were not an extremely pro-trans environment, this conversation would have been shut down long ago, and its creators trouted for tendentious behavior. If conservative editors were trying to deprecate, say, MSNBC on politics, with a similar level of evidence to what has been presented in this current discussion, those editors would probably be threatened with a t-ban for disruptive, WP:NOTHERE conduct. I support the general idea of a moratorium on this topic, although I'm keeping this as a neutral "comment" because it's theoretically possible that The Telegraph's reporting on trans issues could take such a dramatic turn in the next 2 years that another conversation is necessary - although that is highly, highly unlikely. Philomathes2357 (talk) 03:42, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
No argument has been offered in favor of deprecation. Deprecation is a specific thing that doesn't really work in a specific topic area, like I pointed out in the ADL RFC that just got closed recently. What I'm arguing for is marking the Telegraph WP:GUNREL. I realize that's harder to type but it's a pretty big distinction.
Also, I can say from experience that Wikipedia is about average trans-friendliness for a space on the internet. It's no /pol/, certainly, but it's also no r/traa or Tumblr. I would expect a similar assertion that the Telegraph is unusably biased on trans issues to get a mixed reaction in most corners of the internet, and if people were banned or shut down for saying stuff like that I would actually consider that space quite hostile towards trans people. Loki (talk) 01:36, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
I agree with Loki— I’m not seeing any votes for deprecation, Wikipedia is not unusually friendly towards trans people (certainly it’s not biased towards trans people as a community), and there is absolutely nothing disruptive or tendentious going on here. Your argument that disputing the reliability of a widely respected newspaper-of-record is equivalent to NOTHERE right-wing POV pushing and should be silenced or even sanctioned is both disturbingly undemocratic and hypocritical given the contents of your userpage. Dronebogus (talk) 17:17, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
I don't think they's saying that Option 3ers should be sanctioned. In fact they themself said that this is hard to argue due to the "distinction" between fact and opinion above. They was just saying that to evidence their argument about how WP is trans-friendly, which they brought up for whatever reason. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:57, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. This is obviously an attempt to undermine the validity of the process. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 21:29, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. If new evidence for/against the reliability of this source becomes available, we should be allowed to discuss it. —Trilletrollet [ Talk | Contribs ] 15:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose -- Gender-related issues are very much the sort of matter where sources may indulge in efforts that place viewpoint promotion ahead of factual accuracy, and the concept that we should not be able to question that specific reliability (and a limitation that some would apply to British sources?) is strongly at odds with goal here of relying on reliable sources. If some individual editor is repeatedly making frivolous RfCs, that can be dealt with on the user level. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 17:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
For the record, oppose: it's not needed (AFAICT this is the second-ever RFC about this? and the last one was more than a year ago?), it's not appropriate (as David Eppstein said, the premise of the proposal is false, it assumes one contigent of !voters' conclusion as a premise), and AFAICT everyone who's said anything about the idea of another RFC has said it won't be started without persuasive new evidence, so the only thing a moratorium could do is prevent us from considering new evidence. As Black Kite put it, pragmatically if the Telegraph can shift this much in a couple of years, how much further could it shift in another two? Regardless of whether you view it as reliable or unreliable at present, I think we can all hope it gets better, hews closer to the facts, gets more reliable as time goes on... but if it doesn't, if it continues on the trajectory it's on and which we've seen other sources go down, and it gets worse, we shouldn't pre-emptively bind our hands against doing anything about that. -sche (talk) 22:23, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

References

References

  1. ^ Ehrensaft, Diane (25 May 2017). "Gender nonconforming youth: current perspectives". Adolescent Health, Medicine and Therapeutics. 8: 57–67. doi:10.2147/AHMT.S110859. PMC 5448699. PMID 28579848.
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