The "coup" & "insurrection" discussion

Seeing that there are now sources beginning to describe this as a "coup attempt", I wanted to make an organized section discussing the situation. It also seems that some scholars are agreeing that the legislative act was not a coup attempt, but the forceful entry into the capitol was a coup attempt. Below I will make a few sections to organize this discussion.--WMrapids (talk) 09:36, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can you explain what is meant by "some scholars are agreeing that the legislative act was not a coup attempt." Which legislative act? The joint session counting votes? RobP (talk) 08:05, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In the heat of the moment, most newspapers will use emotive and hyperbolic language because their job is to attract readers' attention. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and should describe the event as it is described by authors after the event, not in the middle of it. DenverCoder9 (talk) 21:56, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Coup", "Insurrection", and "Sedition" have specific legal implications. Beyond WP:BLPCRIME, confirmation needs to come from an official source. DenverCoder9 (talk) 23:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The description of events will not become more rational over time. Let's let hyperbole roam freely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.17.25 (talk) 11:38, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources describing as "coup attempt"

All of the media listed below promote a liberal, left and progressive viewpoints. There is no evidence that protesters were a united organized group that was actually attempting to take over the US Government with, I've read, 13 weapons found? Instead it looks as if it was a mixed group who invaded the building to disrupt the electoral college contest and make some messes. The behavior of some of the DC police is also puzzling. I would avoid hyberole and wait for some official DoD reports. The mainstream media is advocacy based. Here we aim to present different sides in a neutral way regardless of personal viewpoints. If you can't manage that attitude, edit non-political articles only. Lmlmss44 (talk) 22:45, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is a list section only used for sources describing the event as a "coup attempt" or similar (May be expanded and please don't use opinion pieces):

Generally reliable sources

Other sources

-- Removed "coup de force" French-language sources, as the French "coup de force" does not correspond at all to English "coup (d'état)". Alalch Emis (talk) 23:37, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was unaware that screaming, breaking windows, looting stores and then leaving fell under the definition of "coup". TheKing'sMongrelSon (talk) 21:09, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources describing as "insurrection"

This is a list section only used for sources describing the event as a "insurrection" (May be expanded and please don't use opinion pieces):

Generally reliable sources

The Insurrection At The Capitol Is A TV Event That Will Live In History RobP (talk) 21:03, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Trump caused the assault on the Capitol. He must be removed. "Failing that, senior Republicans must restrain the president. The insurrection came just as many top Republicans, including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.), were finally denouncing Mr. Trump’s antidemocratic campaign to overturn the election results." RobP (talk) 21:15, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Others

Other terms used

I'm seeing more & more stories on this event refer to it as a "breach". I personally don't think it is the best word to use, but feel with respect to the principle of NPOV this fact needs to be mentioned. -- llywrch (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have not been seeing more and more such stories. A breach can be done by a single human and is roughly synonymous with trespass. The breaching of the Capitol is a moment in time. That's when the first door was broken down. By my estimation, that's 0.0003% of the totality of what happened. That's the sporadic type of usage of "breach" i'm seeing – in reference to particular moments and situations of that event, not in reference to the event itself. Alalch Emis (talk) 04:24, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

In the sections above, "coup" is more widely used internationally. On the other hand, it seems that "insurrection" is more prominent in English sources and in use among US politicians. "Storm" does not appear to be more popular than the other two, though it appears frequently in German media.--WMrapids (talk) 09:36, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Very few not-in-the-moment sources use coup without attempted, because the word coup does imply a success. The word storm doesn't have that implication, a storm is a still a storm whether it's successful or not. Same with a protest, an attack, a demonstration, etc. I think that we should avoid using coup simply because we can't use it without putting a qualifier there, which instantly strays into commentary territory. --Paul ❬talk❭ 10:00, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support Holding on Changes I appreciate the work that went in to making this list, however, caution should be exercised. Business Insider is currently the subject of an intense discussion at WP:RSN and I question the quality of Uproxx for reporting civil-military relations; many of these are op-eds and editorials that are using the word "coup" as a term of art; and several of these are non-English language sources where the nuance of the word coup does not precisely reflect in English translation. Factually, if it were determined to be a putsch of some type, it would be an autogolpe and not a coup. A coup is an attack against the existing executive power, while an autogolpe is an attack against the existing legislative power. As time progresses, this nuance will be learned and internalized by reporters on beats that normally don't deal with this subject and we may see an evolution in nomenclature. We must chronicle the terms used by RS, however, that does not preclude us from proceeding with deliberation and caution, particularly insofar as current events are concerned. Chetsford (talk) 10:03, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Chetsford: Not a survey, but thanks for the info as I agree that we should wait and created this discussion so we can pick apart the sources while we wait. The op-eds included are written by the editorial boards of the said sources, showing that the term they use is what the publication decides best describes the event. "Putsch" is not used often in English and especially not in this circumstance, though it is often synonymous with "coup" when used. Your statement that "[a] coup is an attack against the existing executive power" is simply untrue. An autogolpe or self-coup is a type of coup, so it would still be accurate to describe it as a "coup attempt" without being too specific on what type of coup it may be (which seems like many publications have done by simply calling the event a "coup attempt"). Also, we describe various self-coups on Wikipedia as simply a "coup" or "coup attempt", such as the 1851 French coup d'état, the 1973 Uruguayan coup d'état and the 1970 Lesotho coup d'état. So if the event were to be determined to be a self-coup attempt, then it would be acceptable to name this the 2021 United States coup d'état attempt in accordance with predecessor articles. That is, unless, sources give us a special name for the event.--WMrapids (talk) 10:31, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Your statement that "[a] coup is an attack against the existing executive power" is simply untrue." I regret to inform you that's an objectively false statement. As the French term is invoked in English, a coup d'etat is understood to be an attack against the executive power in all literature on the subject while the Spanish term autogolpe is invoked to mean an attack against the legislative authority by the executive. I can't find my copy of Luttwack's Coup d'Etat at the moment, but I'm pretty certain he clarifies it that way (and it is the definitive source on the subject), but there's a breadth of other scholarship on this as well in the academic literature (e.g. [3] or Paul Brooker's Non Democratic Regimes [page 83 in my edition]). "we describe various self-coups on Wikipedia as simply a "coup" or "coup attempt"" Please see WP:WINARS. In any case, this is all neither here nor there since it sounds like we both agree we should wait to implement any changes. Chetsford (talk) 10:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I did some searches just then, most of the articles I just read referred to it as a "riot" or the "protestors storming the capitol building". I'm not seeing a lot of obvious references to coups, and my personal feeling is, a coup would involve some level of sophisticated organistion, this is just the working of a mob. Just my 2c! Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:13, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Chetsford: The simple definition of a coup is "the removal of an existing government from power" (Wikipedia), "a sudden and great change in the government carried out violently or illegally by the ruling power" (Oxford) or "the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group" (Merriam-Webster), all meaning that it is the removal or change of a government, which generally can constitute multiple branches, not only the executive. However, it seems that you are more interested in the intricate definition of a coup according to various scholarly opinions which, as you can see in some articles above, are divided. Your opinion is respected, but we do not use WP:OR. Reliable sources seem to be using the simple definition approach. As for WP:WINARS, that is obvious. The articles were listed as examples for if this event is determined to be a coup attempt by reliable sources, not as a source to determine the article title.--WMrapids (talk) 11:26, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
While I appreciate you looking up the word "coup" in the dictionary, we generally frown on WP:OR. Chetsford (talk) 18:58, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Chetsford: I feel like this article by the Brookings Institution makes good points and pretty much gives an explanation of what I said above.--WMrapids (talk) 11:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Kingsif: That's helpful. It seems like many reliable sources are describing this a "coup attempt", though it's still early so we are working on determining Wikipedia:Verify. Due to the importance of this article, we can be sure WP:OR should not be a problem as well. WP:NPOV seems to be alright too as numerous reliable sources have verified that Biden had won the election and that such acts of reversing the election are unlawful, so describing this as a "coup attempt" would be neutral. It seems like we are just working on the verifiability regarding how to describe the event at this point (insurrection, coup attempt, etc.)--WMrapids (talk) 12:22, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • If looking at more sources, The Guardian has now collected all its coverage under the tag "US Capitol stormed" on its website. But then they have a headline calling it an insurrection, and an opinion piece saying to call it a coup. Kingsif (talk) 13:12, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Kingsif: Look at the multiple sources added above into a generally reliable section. Many new sources being released this morning.--WMrapids (talk) 16:02, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is in my mind too early to use these types of words. The most accurate statement is protest turned riot. Unless someone can prove that the people involved had an organized plan to overthrow Congress, which is very doubtful, than the other labels don't apply. Also a lot of the sources using these terms are opinion pieces, they can be useful in describing what people 'think' of what happened, but not what it actually was. 3Kingdoms (talk) 20:22, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's untrue that the labels "insurrection" or "coup" don't apply if there was not an organized plan to overthrow Congress. This is an arbitrary standard. I don't see what would support such a stance. The RS are converging on "insurrection" as many have noticed. Although there are some RS using "coup", as you have observed, some of the sources listed here are opinion pieces. This is not the case with "insurrection". Alalch Emis (talk) 23:31, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • this is about the name. The RtM to something other than "protests" was urgently needed, but there will be another name change, ideally in about a week from now. Alalch Emis (talk) 22:17, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

An insurrection is violent action that is taken by a large group of people against the rulers of their country, usually in order to remove them from office.... an act or instance of rising in revolt, rebellion, or resistance against civil authority or an established government.

Also, Biden used that term.

A coup is a quick and decisive seizure of governmental power by a strong military or political group.... a sudden violent or illegal seizure of government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:250:4570:2DEE:EC99:D4AD:2C0F (talk) 09:32, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What these guys did was really stupid. I would put that in the article if I could. For now there is only speculation about insurecction or conspiracyt. I'm joining others in voting wait and see. Spudlace (talk) 11:46, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There is tremendous clarity regarding what happened due to the incredible amount of journalistic activity and coverage, and the public nature of the events. The pseudo-revolution was televised and it amounted to an insurrection. This is what the RS are expressing at this point. This is not to say that what took place isn't a storming, but the storming is the 'how' to the 'what' - the insurrection... which does not have to be smart. This standard amuses me. This event will not be remembered as stupid but as painful and frightening to people all around the world. Alalch Emis (talk) 23:42, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I really apologize if I'm in the wrong section, I'm really rarely contributing to Wikipedia as a whole, I just wanted to point out some thoughts on the naming convention for this article:

  1. The "See Also" list gives other examples of "storming the legislature building". However, none of those articles are titled using the same naming convention. For example, the Armenian and Serbian articles are listed as "Protests" and not "Storming of X", even though the situation is almost exactly the same.
  2. Different naming conventions are often thrown around as political rhetoric, so a media site calling something a coup does not (by itself) make it a coup, any more than political rhetoric from conservative news sites are taken in the opposite direction
  3. Strictly speaking, a coup implies a military insurrection of some kind, but all the people in this situation are civilians, not military

So the naming convention of the article I would support, one way or the other, would be simply something that is consistent with other articles that already exist LutherVinci (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Federal law enforcement assistance of Trump

European officials are now saying that Trump received assistance with establishing supporters within the Capitol. Security officials from Europe stated they train with US federal forces and that "it's obvious that large parts of any successful plan were just ignored". This is interesting as one argument regarding the definition of "coup" is that it requires assistance from armed branches of the government.--WMrapids (talk) 05:40, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Insurrection?

While the previous move was closed with the recommendation to wait about a week, we are now about three days after the event. After reviewing more recent sources, it seems that the term "insurrection" has been determined to be the most common term. CNN is even hosting a special titled "The Trump Insurrection". Any opinions on this?--WMrapids (talk) 12:03, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What is an insurrection? "Rebellion and insurrection refer specifically to acts of violence against the state or its officers." [4] How is the occupation of the capitol "violence against the state or its officers"? Certainly, it is the primary inflammatory term associated with the event. But is it accurate? Jrb1tx (talk) 17:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is very accurate.... many news used the word, "insurrection". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:250:4570:2DEE:EC99:D4AD:2C0F (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, insurrection is the term most used by reliable sources. Only Fox news calls it a "storming" in attempts to romanticise the event and build support for a Trump pardon for the participants. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 13:06, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that the decision was to wait for a week to see what the event is to be referred as. Many reliable sources started using the word "insurrection" at the Capitol more consistency now. I assume at some point, the article will be moved to 2021 insurrection at the United States Capitol, right? Here are just a few examples:

Media
  • NPR created a news category called "Insurrection At The Capitol"[5]
  • PBS Classroom resource: Three ways to teach the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol[6]
  • Tampa Bay Times "insurrection at the Capitol"[7]
  • Fortune "the insurrection at the Capitol"[8]
  • National Geographic "the Capital insurrection"[9]
  • The Guardian's First Thing "insurrection at the Capitol"[10]
  • Aljazeera "US Capitol insurrection"[11]
Politicians from both parties
  • Statement of President George W. Bush on "Insurrection at the Capitol"[12]
  • Mitt Romney on an "insurrection" as reported on a reliable source (NYTimes)[13]
  • Joe Biden on an "insurrection" as reported on a reliable source (Sydney Morning Herald)[14]
Discussion and event names
  • Hammer Museum "Insurrection at the Capitol: What’s Next?"[15]
  • University of Denver "Insurrection at the Capitol"[16]

An important reliable source is from the the Congress. The Article of Impeachment describes the event as an insurrection which had 4 elements in it:[17][18]

  • Beaching and vandalizing of the Capitol
  • Injuring and killed law enforcement personnel
  • Menacing the Members of Congress, the Vice President, and Congressional personnel
  • Engaging in other violent, deadly, destructive and seditious acts

I think the word breaching is similar to the current word "storming" that is used as the title. That is just one element of the overall event in which it is known in the article as an insurrection. By leaving the title to just one element of the event, it may not capture the overall picture of what it is as many reliable sources now describe the overall event than just as the "storming" part of it. Z22 (talk) 19:51, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The second Trump impeachment WAS for him "inciting an insurrection" and it is now in the history books. So how is this not the most appropriate description for what happened at the Capitol now? RobP (talk) 07:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That was a coup d'état

I am looking at this new article in CNN, Investigators looking into planning of Capitol riot. Indeed, it is highly probable that the planning and participation involved well prepared groups of rioters in all gear (they even brought restraints to capture the members of Congress, just as they wanted to capture the Michigan governor), some police (who did not stop the mob and allowed everyone to leave when the rioters realized that lawmakers are gone), possibly some Pentagon officials (who did not sent the guard even after the request by DC mayor), and possibly even Republican lawmakers and the president. There is a lot of chat about it, including even some analysis by Michael Moore and separately by Yuri Shvets who is definitely an expert (here (Russian)). The purpose of the coup was to prevent the inauguration of new president. My very best wishes (talk) 15:25, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. A coup d'état attempt (so far).
The Capitol siege was planned online. Trump supporters are now planning the next one
"Given the very clear and explicit warning signs – with Trump supporters expressing prior intent to “storm and occupy Congress” and use “handcuffs and zip ties,” clear plans being laid out on public forums, and the recent precedent of the plot to storm the Michigan Capitol building while Congress was in session – it is truly mind-boggling that the police were not better-prepared,” said Rita Katz, executive director of SITE Intelligence Group, which was among the research groups that detailed what was coming in the weeks before the Capitol was attacked. It recapped much of this evidence in a report published Saturday." ... "ARMED MARCH ON CAPITOL HILL & ALL STATE CAPITOLS” for Jan. 17, the last Sunday of Trump’s polarizing presidency."
Ruth Ben-Ghiat, professor of history and Italian studies at New York University, wrote the book Strongmen: How They Rise, Why They Succeed, How They Fall: “Historian of coups and right-wing authoritarians here. If there are not severe consequences for every lawmaker & Trump govt official who backed this, every member of the Capitol Police who collaborated with them, this 'strategy of disruption' will escalate in 2021.”
This Is a Coup. Why Were Experts So Reluctant to See It Coming?
Fascinatingly, fascist-natingly, the Defense Department is referring to the pro-Trump riot as “the January 6, 2021 1st Amendment Protests.” https://media.defense.gov/2021/Jan/08/2002562063/-1/-1/1/PLANNING-AND-EXECUTION-TIMELINE-FOR-THE-NATIONAL-GUARDS-INVOLVEMENT-IN-THE-JANUARY-6-2021-FIRST-AMENDMENT-PROTESTS-IN-WASHINGTON-DC.pdf ← This memo tells you all you need to know.--217.234.68.109 (talk) 22:01, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! In particular, this interview] with Ruth Ben-Ghiat is very helpful. This might be a bifurcation point in US history. My very best wishes (talk) 02:49, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are welcomen ;-) Ben-Ghiat: "I’m very worried that this... “armed march” being planned for January 17th around the nation. And once you legitimize and give a presidential imprimatur to extremism, and once you convince — you plant people throughout federal agencies, you know, you radicalize law enforcement, as Bill Barr, who stepped away but has a huge amount of responsibility for this, it’s very hard to turn this back." Remenber, No public appearances with remarks from the AG or FBI director. Capitol Police haven’t held a single briefing. DHS secretary just stepped down. All since a mob just stormed the Capitol. --217.234.74.185 (talk) 17:13, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And what they are going to do next? "They were talking about 4,000 armed 'patriots' to surround the Capitol" [19]. Who knows? In 1999 Putin and his comrades arranged a series of terrorist acts to grab the power (that page was fixed for "neutrality" by one of Russian-speaking accounts [20]). My very best wishes (talk) 17:44, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking more about coups, the leader must have a support by organizations like the army, the secret police or political Parties in order to succeed. Neither seem to be the case here, except only supremacist organizations and some Republicans. However, this is hard to say with certainty at the moment. My very best wishes (talk) 21:21, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

French-speaking sources cited

I am a native French speaker, and it seems that some French newspapers in the list above don't actually qualify this event as a coup, but as a « coup de force », which Wiktionary defines as “A suddent, violent act.” The word “coup” in English would be translated as « coup d’état » instead. The affected sources are Le monde diplomatique (both), BFM TV, Orange, Euronews, Ouest-France, and La Voix du Nord (which uses « coup d’état » in citations only). Also, I couldn’t verify the citation for the France Info article, “Pro-Trump coup” is just « États-Unis » in the title of the article on my computer. In fact, the article says that « Didier Combeau estime qu’il s’agit plus “d’une manifestation d’extrémistes peu nombreux” qu’une tentative [sic] coup d’État » (“Didier Combeau believes that it is more “a menifestation of few extremists’ than a coup attempt.”) Nicolapps (talk) 19:21, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have verified that "coup de force" indeed does not correspond to "coup d'etat". Therefore I have removed the following sources from the list:
-- Alalch Emis (talk) 23:41, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Nicolapps (talk) 17:08, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
NOTFORUM and Civility violation

Please remember that news outlets use sensational words to describe an event in order to get the attention of the viewers. Those that were protesting wanted their voice to be heard. Just a portion of the people that attended the demonstration were violent. Most of if not all of the priceless works of art were untouched. There were many videos of people in the capital just mulling around like they were on a guided tour. Almost in awe of their surroundings. The love of their country and their freedoms brought them to the capital. Many did not heed the words of the president when he asked his supporters to be peaceful. If it was a coup, who was the one calling for it? If it was an insurrection where is the evidence. The news outlets use those terms, but they do not provide any proof. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MissBehaving (talk • contribs) 01:36, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You sweet, summer child. What sort of dull-eyed thugs are needed to overthrow the nation and keep power? The current president will use any support he can find, and did so, and as it became ugly, he reveled in what he had unleashed. In the Rwanda genocide, leaders announced over radio it was time to "cut down the tall trees". They don't say 'Ok, let's quite precisely knock on the door and demand control of the democracy.' I do think "Hang Mike Pence" is no construction of sensational words by a click-seeking media. This is technically a "reverse coup" I guess. I'm glad they only wanted to murder the vice president, rather than destroy priceless art. I don't believe they love this particular country, which is a democracy. And crushing the skull of a policeman isn't embracing freedoms. This is a coup attempt in plain sight, with all the ingredients. Mcfnord (talk) 21:43, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As I wrote earlier, a coup implies some actions by regular military or organization by ruling elites. If the action is done purely by normal civilians, no matter what their intentions are, no matter how organized they are, would still be an insurrection and not a coup, and as I pointed out there are other Wikipedia articles of similar events in Armenia and Serbia which aren't even called insurrections, but called protests. Media outlets may use sensationalist terminology to grab people's attention, or purposefully imply that the action was a coup, even if that is more flowery language. That being said, if there was any media outlet that proves the action was done by military or specifically orchestrated by Trump as an attempt to disband congress, then yes it would be a coup. So far, all we have proved is that Trump incited or inspired the action, and some police were delayed a few hours before intervening, and that's pretty much it right now. In fact, if the people are calling for hanging Mike Pence, who is absolutely in Trump's camp, that kind of invalidates the claim of it being an elite-orchestrated event, and therefore invalidating it being called a coup. QED. LutherVinci (talk) 05:04, 13 January 2021 (UTC) (forgot to log in earlier)[reply]
@LutherVinci: Having the military being involved is a common misconception; it just requires a violent attempt to overthrow a government. The New Yorker actually hypothesized a similar example in October 2020, stating "For example, Trump could summon federal agents or his supporters to stop a recount or intimidate voters. According to some experts, this would constitute an autogolpe, or 'self-coup'". This is almost what happened on January 6. However, it seems that the event has been consistently described as an "insurrection" by reliable sources, so we should use that description and then make comments about the term "coup" in the body.--WMrapids (talk) 09:51, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Insurrection is what the United States government has declared took place.

Time to change the headline

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-impeachment-news-01-12-21/h_ff48d5c57b86031716423f4c0b8b9940

--Caffoti (talk) 23:07, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

cnn is explaining the difference between sedition a coup d'etat and an insurrection. ://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/insurrection-coup-sedition-meaning-trnd/index.html

capital invasion

[[21]] Its what it was, RS say it and it really is not all that loaded.Slatersteven (talk) 11:41, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Riot

However sources like this say people are bieng charged as rioters [[22]].Slatersteven (talk) 11:42, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

“A”, if not “the” mainstream view is that ‘coup’ is apt. Instead the word has been entirely whitewashed from the first half of the article, where it is called a mere riot.
C’mon, people. --50.201.195.170 (talk) 14:23, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RFC: Should this event be characterized as terrorism?

Should this event be characterized as terrorism? 00:26, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


Transcluded discussion from other talk page

Support

Well ... MSNBC in its self-ad, refers to coverage of "domestic terrorism" as part of their purpose. — Maile (talk) 02:38, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "28 CFR § 0.85".
  2. ^ Borger, Julian; The Guardian: "Insurrection Day: when white supremacist terror came to the US Capitol" 2021 January 9 [1] Retrieved 2021 January 11.
  3. ^ Tucker, Eric. "Attack highlights challenge of pursuing domestic extremists". The Associated Press. Retrieved 12 January 2021.

Oppose

The difference between a group of people infiltrating a government building thinking they can threaten politicians into not voting (symbolicly as it were) for something and a group of people protesting against *checks notes* human rights violations while being tear gassed, is that the latter group of people weren’t threatening the action of democracy. Trillfendi (talk) 01:36, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I would not have a problem with that either. Many of the BLM/Antifa riots were far more violent than the Capitol Hill Storming and tactics used certainly checked the boxes for terrorism. Similarly, there were certainly participants of the storming who had terroristic intentions at very least. I would be supportive of both this, and the BLM/Antifa riots being categorized as terrorism. History Man1812 (talk) 20:16, 10 January 2021 (UTC)History_Man1812[reply]
Again, NPOV must be maintained and your views of motivation behind two different rioting mobs do not decide whether it constitutes terrorism.ExplosiveResults (talk) 01:44, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Terrorism is a method, the idealistic motivators of an action are irrelevant to whether it's "terrorism" or not.PailSimon (talk) 01:41, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That is incorrect. The definition(s) of terrorism include the political purpose. Breaking into a house in order to steal something is not terrorism, but breaking into a house in order to intimidate someone to vote a specific way is. Sjö (talk) 09:56, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the people identified at the Capitol were already on FBI watchlists, there is no such things as BLM riots, BLM doesn't organize riots, they conduct protests, which isn't terrorism, and have permits from the city to do so. White supremacists at the Capitol had weapons and handcuffs, used flag poles, fire extinguishers, and stun guns to attack police and others, used mob force to crush and rip of the badges and weapons of law enforcement, prevent them from leaving, caused Congress members and staff to go into hiding in fear for their lives, wore anti-semitic clothing and carried white nationalist symbols, and went on a search to find the Vice President of the United States and Speaker of the House of Representatives. They also planted bombs nearby. One sounds like terrorism to me, the other sounds like protesting as allowed under the Constitution. Oh, and all rioting isn't terrorism. It involves more. Teammm talk
email 01:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you mean by BLM riots, ExplosiveResults - which doesn't seem notable - do you have a reference?. There have been protests on many things (like sports games) that have descended into rioting after extended period. That doesn't make it terrorism. This storming appeared to have been the plan of the "protesters" ... and happened almost immediately. As far as I know the vast majority of BLM protests were entirely peaceful, and the worst offence was blocking traffic, or noise violations - certainly around here. Nfitz (talk) 01:38, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
BLM and/or Antifa protests have done more than "blocking traffic". They have burned down police stations, repeated attacks on the federal courthouse in Portland, set up "autonomous zones" in several cities, and don't even get me started on the five police officers killed in Dallas in 2016 during a BLM protest.96.241.129.33 (talk) 21:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
BLM protests were scheduled ahead of time, coordinated with local law enforcement and the media. The fact that looters and other opportunistic types showed up to create chaos was not the goal of BLM. — Maile (talk) 01:55, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So let me get this straight: Breaking past capitol security, causing minor property damage to the building, and walking around inside for a little while in response to an allegedly stolen election is terrorism, but killing civilians and burning down cities because a few criminals got killed isn't? How absurd. Display name 99 (talk) 03:12, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Of course! That's why they were there. They just wanted to have a little walk around the place. Very fine people, I'm sure. --Bongwarrior (talk) 04:00, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Terrorists are usually armed though. Pipe bombs found outside the building notwithstanding, I don't think any of the rioters were armed. Otherwise, just refer to RS, not POV. Including mine. RandomGnome (talk) 04:06, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the rioters absolutely were armed. You are correct, though, that we should go with RS. GorillaWarfare (talk) 04:14, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Checking the article, I found mention of an 'armed standoff' and 'chemical sprays'. You are correct that some of the rioters were armed, but these appear to be more isolated events within a highly disorganized and opportunist riot by a disparate group that managed to gain access to the building, rather than a concerted, armed terrorist siege. But as you say, we defer to RS. I would urge editors to find sufficient high quality RS before RfCing for 'terrorism'. Thanks. RandomGnome (talk) 04:35, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed several extensive discussions on this talk page and others related to terrorism, with edit warring. I've seen reasonable RS arguments for both. I opened this to get discussion in (hopefully) one spot. Jdphenix (talk) 05:27, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Display name 99: Holy strawman Batman! "minor property damage" and "walking around inside"? That's a funny way of describing violently breaking into a federal building and planting not one but two IEDs in an attempt to overthrow an election. Bravetheif (talk) 05:18, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No As said above, most if not all reliable sources call this a riot, at most it is referred to as an insurrection, which is a dubious claim in it of itself JazzClam (talk) 14:29, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that JazzClam is subject to a topic ban on post-1932 American politics, and their above comments are only present due to a clerical error. See Special:Permalink/999792924 § JazzClam for details. — Newslinger talk 03:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No This is a malformed RfC, and probably going to end up as a snowball again, as declaring it to be ex post facto terrorism by interpreting it as "Yes, per "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." would clearly be wp:OR. Let's chill on the RfCs for a while. BrxBrx(talk)(please reply with ((SUBST:re|BrxBrx))) 01:26, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wow consensus on “facts”...could this be anymore intellectually dishonest...

I don't see how, User:PailSimon, that identification of event is a biased issue, with Republicans and (former) Trump supporters calling this terrorism. How is this article from a local newspaper (Washington Post) not a reliable source? It even identifies some of the white nationalist terror groups involved. Nfitz (talk) 06:33, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The last part of this argument is demonstrably false. Lin Wood; "The time has come Patriots. This is our time. Time to take back our country. Time to fight for our freedom" [BusinessInsider]. His Parler post; "Get the firing squads ready. Pence goes FIRST." [Washington Post]. The bombs. Violent intent isn't debatable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdphenix (talk • contribs) 04:13, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is an incorrect assertion, because an act of terrorism does not necessitate "a LOT more people" being killed; for instance, in 1985'a incident involving TWA Flight 847 there was 1 fatality. In fact, an act of terrorism can occur without any casualties, like in Japan Airlines Flight 351. In the Capitol, there was an officer of the law killed, and The Guardian reported that "Two pipe bombs had been found at Republican and Democratic party offices near Congress"[1] Tortillovsky (talk) 17:25, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The legal definition of terrorism varies from country to country - in some countries a certain level of seriousness/damage is required. In most Anglo-Saxon countries 'intent' rather than outcome is the defining factor. IRA actions in London often did no actual harm but caused massive economic disruption simply by threatening acts such as planting multiole small incendiary devices on the transport system, thengiving an ambiguous warning. But yes, there is not generally a minimum 'body count'. Pincrete (talk) 09:27, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Other

Discussion

Just because it seems that it is terrorism does not mean it is. We need sources. All the "Yes's" are all opinion. Whenever we have made big decisions, such as on the Taiwan article and referring to it as a country, (That was a good day Wikipedia!) sources have been used. The primary reason the "Taiwan as a country" campaign won was because nearly all reliable sources refer to it as a country. This is no different. We cannot refer to them as terrorists because we don't like them, I don't like them either, that was a dark day, but that's no excuse to lose our moral high ground. JazzClam (talk) 14:36, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that JazzClam is subject to a topic ban on post-1932 American politics, and their above comments are only present due to a clerical error. See Special:Permalink/999792924 § JazzClam for details. — Newslinger talk 03:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

if the article on terrorism has enough info to answer this question, then let it answer it. If it doesn't, improve or remove it-thanks

No, this was not domestic terrorism. This was a case of heightened emotions that lead to a riot. The pipe bombs that were left around the Capitol did not detonate and there is no proof that a pro-Trump supporter placed the pipe bomb around the premise. The individual that placed the pipebombs could Possibly be classified as a terrorist, but those that stormed the Capitol should not be placed in that category unless there is a premeditated plan to break into the Capitol building. The media outlets like to use words that draw in their viewers. Also, if we go by what President-Elect Biden calls it, then we should follow the same guidelines with BLM or Antifa because Trump has called those entities terrorists. MissBehaving (talk) 02:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@David TornheimI think the problem here is that we have an event so prominent that we can find RS that call it a massive variety of things including "terrorism", "insurrection" and a "coup attempt". However, on balance the majority of RS won't take that position. This is why people feel free to wade in. I think we should just exclude terrorism for now, as it pretty clearly isn't from any neutral standpoint (and if it is, I've done terrorism on several occasions), and wait to see if a historical consensus calling it "terrorism" emerges in academic sources rather than news media. Boynamedsue (talk) 08:48, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Borger, Julian; The Guardian: "Insurrection Day: when white supremacist terror came to the US Capitol" 2021 January 9 [2] Retrieved 2021 January 11.
  2. ^ "Terrorism". Federal Bureau of Investigation. Retrieved 2021-01-10.
  3. ^ "Terrorism 2002/2005". Federal Bureau of Investigation. Retrieved 2021-01-10.

Removal of the year 2021 in the title.

As can be told by the article itself, the Capital has not been occupied previous to the storming, except for the Burning of Washington. That led me to think, we don't call the Burning the "1814 Burning of Washington", so why do we call this storming the "2021 Storming"

I think the "Storming of the United States Capitol" is a far better title, and until another event like it takes place, I recommend we forego the year in the title.

I do not know how to formally request a page move from Wikipedia mobile, if someone else could do that for me, I'd appreciate it. RobotGoggles (talk) 00:20, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Good idea. My very best wishes (talk) 01:31, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also agree on removing the year on the title. There has been no similar event before. 152.132.1.16 (talk) 17:30, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that having "2021" in the title is unnecessary and odd. Surtsicna (talk) 10:16, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, 2021 is redundant. I would be bold and move this myself right now, but I'd like to hear from more editors first. — Czello 10:24, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with the others here. Please go ahead with the page move. LK (talk) 15:10, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ah damn, the house is locked. GeraldWL 15:13, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So ask an administrator for permission. Trillfendi (talk) 15:23, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But ♩ where are the admins... ♩ GeraldWL 06:04, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support this. /Julle (talk) 19:10, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was all set to do this, when I came across the following food for thought in talk archives. I thought Smartyllama and Gwennie made good points. My own opinion is the discussion should sit for a bit longer, but I'm pretty inactive, so no prejudice against another admin moving the page.--Chaser (talk) 04:32, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, the year in unnecessary in the title. --Tataral (talk) 23:13, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Chaser, the points were mainly made procedurally, as move requests weren't being considered and the consensus of a 200+ response RFC is rather difficult to overturn easily. However, I do support the removal of the year. A redirect will provide that functionality as well. (Hopefully, it doesn't become necessary if it gets stormed again in the future) ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 05:55, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the issue with including the year. It makes it more clear it was a specific event and not a general article on the concept. It's a provisional title anyway which should err on the side of being clear over being brief; if a consensus title emerges among reliable sources later, the article can shift to that then which won't be a descriptive title. SnowFire (talk) 09:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus on "insurrection", but what title?

It seems that reliable sources have given the event a WP:COMMONNAME, which has been described as an "insurrection", not a coup or something else (see previous discussion). Before we make a potential move proposal, we should agree on the format of the title. Should it be 2021 United States Capitol insurrection, United States Capitol insurrection or neither?--WMrapids (talk) 10:30, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No it is way way way too soon to even discuss what historians are going to call this. Current name is unambiguous; no moves yet. VQuakr (talk) 20:02, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We can wait a little bit, but it's worth collecting sources so far to get a sense of where things stand. "Storming" strikes me as a bit odd (though there are sources using it, it's not the most common term.) --Aquillion (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We should not wait too long, it's becoming more out of date each day. We can change it a second time if it's needed.Spudlace (talk) 12:29, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Aquillion that we should wait as results are changing daily and this title is fine for now. I did some Google News searches today (without the year) using variations of the common terms in the title:
  1. Attack - approx. 190,000,000 results
  2. Riot - 167,000,000
  3. Storming - 50,000,000
  4. Insurrection - 50,000.000
Per WP:COMMON NAME , 'attack' and 'riot' are the terms used most by sources. Due to the planning and incitement, I prefer 'attack' and think this discussion should be closed. 'Insurrection' is fine within the body of the article. IP75 (talk) 22:58, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@IP75: "Attack" is such a generic term that the search results are often skewed to show descriptions of individuals rather than the event. The title of this article is describing the event, not individual actions. This is the same situation with "riot".--WMrapids (talk) 10:05, 15 January 2021 (UTC) While making recent searches on Google News, a simple "Capitol" was entered into the search bar with a 24-hour filter. It seems that "Capitol riot" was another popular term, so that will be placed into the discussion as well.--WMrapids (talk) 10:22, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Choices

Add an appropriate comment of support to only one of the two designated sections below.

While still recognizing WP:NOTAVOTE, it would be easier to see a possible consensus of comments using the following format: "# Support: example comment here "

Which looks like:

  1. Support: example comment here

If you do not support one of the two choices below, please participate in the discussion section so we can determine a consensus among ourselves.

2021 United States Capitol insurrection

I think Jushyusaha604's suggestion is good: "2021 pro-Trump insurrection at the US Capitol"; though we are presented with only two options, of which 2021 United States Capitol insurrection is the better one. Personally, I would opt for a title that would differentiate a little more, such as: "2021 United States Capitol pro-Trump protest and siege" (or "... protest and raid").

United States Capitol insurrection

2021 United States Capitol riot

Discussion

Until there are multiple insurrections at the United States Capitol, I think it is redundant to specify that we mean the insurrection in 2021 instead of the 2022 insurrection. If we want to speculate on the possibility of future insurrections, we have no way of knowing whether we might need to distinguish the January 2021 insurrection from the May 2021 insurrection. So at this point, I see no need to specify 2021 at all, since I do not know of other insurrections at this location. That is different from the "Storming" situation, where there was an 1814 storming and a 2021 storming.--Bhuck (talk) 12:20, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reminder: Wikipedia:Article titles states that articles should be named based on Recognizability, Naturalness, Precision, Conciseness and Consistency. Also for anyone (like me) who needed to find out the differences between coup, insurrection and sedition CNN did an explainer. John Cummings (talk) 13:20, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment-proposal – Insurrection at the United States Capitol (see: Gunfight at the O.K. Corral); example of this used in a headline, in own voice: Insurrection At The Capitol: Live Updates. There was already some support for this specific name during the original move discussion. IMO this is by far the most encyclopedic name. Alalch Emis (talk) 14:10, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Put 2021 in the title SRD625 (talk) 15:16, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support This is a singular event in U.S. history. Wikipedia doesn't have articles on any other insurrections at the United States Capitol. Tad Lincoln (talk) 19:58, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - I did some Google News searches today (without the year) using variations of the common terms in the title:

  1. Attack - approx. 190,000,000 results
  2. Riot - 167,000,000
  3. Storming - 50,000,000
  4. Insurrection - 50,000.000

Per WP:COMMON NAME , 'attack' and 'riot' are the terms most used by sources. Due to the planning, I prefer 'attack' and think this discussion should be closed. 'Insurrection' is fine within the body of the article. Propose: Attack on the United States Capitol IP75 (talk) 01:04, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

While I don't think we should rush to change the title, it's worth collecting current sources so we can get a sense of what terms are and aren't used. From a quick Google News search for "capitol":

That's just the start, there's a ton of sources to go over. As you can see there's a variety of terms (even within the same articles) but a few things are repeated - riot, attack, assault, and insurrection are all terms that show up a lot, with siege showing up occasionally. Storming doesn't show up anywhere in the first few pages of results unless I specifically search for it. --Aquillion (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Aquillion: Insurrection seems to be the common thread, especially among headlines.
Here are some headlines from the past 24 hours:
It seems that specifically the term "Capitol insurrection" is very popular among reliable sources.--WMrapids (talk) 14:34, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lawmakers gave groups ‘reconnaissance’ tours of the Capitol one day before riots, Rep. Mikie Sherrill (D-N.J.) says

I'm unsure how to include this information, any suggestions? Here are some references:

John Cummings (talk) 20:12, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think the edit Calmecac5 made on Mikie Sherrill is an appropriate way to include this information.[26] Unless people think it's too soon to add. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:23, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, my question is should it be added to this article about the event? What are the rules about this kind of well referenced eye witness statement? John Cummings (talk) 20:32, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's fair to add. You just need to be cautious in how it's stated per NPOV. The word "reconnaissance" needs to be in quotes, the quote needs to be attributed to Sherrill, etc. Stick with the source, go no further than what RS says. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:54, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Lawmakers give tours all the time for perfectly legitimate reasons, but the term ″reconnaissance″ was hers, not mine.Calmecac5 (talk) 20:43, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Muboshgu: can you suggest a way to phrase the text and where it might go? John Cummings (talk) 21:42, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
John Cummings, I think the text Calmecac5 used is solid, but where does it go? Under the "January 5 events" section? Or perhaps "Aftermath"? Or both? Maybe the bit about "reconnaissance" goes in "January 5 events" and the calls for investigation goes under "Aftermath". – Muboshgu (talk) 22:45, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Muboshgu, John Cummings, I'd put the "recon tour" allegation under the section called "Planning of the storming" after the paragraph on Ali Alexander. - Tuckerlieberman (talk) 21:34, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
John Cummings For a better undestanding. Tours were NOT perfectly legitimate! Public tours are prohibited since March of 2020 due to the Covid-19 pandemic! Visiors are not allowed. The tours were so unusual that they were reported to security on Jan. 5, ahead of the following day's violence.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/12/mikie-sherrill-capitol-hill-attack-458655
Sherrill, along with 30 other House Democrats, signed a letter demanding an "investigation" into the "suspicious" visitors that were allowed in the building on Jan. 5. The letter was addressed to Acting House Sergeant-at-Arms as well as the acting Senate Sergeant-at-Arms and the United States Capitol Police. All of these agencies have elements that have been implicated in the coup plot.
In the letter it is noted that the "visitors encountered by some of the Members of Congress on this letter appeared to be associated with the rally at the White House the following day," and that the group seemed "to have an unusually detailed knowledge of the layout of the Capitol Complex. The presence of these groups within the Capitol Complex was indeed suspicious." In a viral social media video, one woman with a bullhorn (#Bullhornlady) is seen and heard giving detailed instructions to rioters who had broken into the Capitol: “There’s also two doors in the other room, one in the rear and one in the right, when you go in, so you should probably coordinate together if you are going to take this building.”.
As part of the effort of the Democratic Party to cover-up the plans of their “Republican colleagues,” Sherril refused to comment to Politico as to the identity of the lawmakers involved or to describe the “suspicious” activity she witnessed. In a similar vein, Democratic representative Tim Ryan of Ohio also refused to publicly name Trump’s co-conspirators, telling a reporter that he’s aware of “a couple” of names of complicit congresspersons, but that he would wait to release them “to make sure we get verification.” Ryan said he had passed the names “to the authorities” Jan. 6, the night of the coup.
Jason Crow, Democratic Colorado representative, told the New York Times that he had requested an investigation by the Government Accountability Office into whether members of Congress played a role in inciting the insurrectionists who attacked the Capitol: “To the extent there were members of the House that were complicit, and I believe there were, we will pursue appropriate remedies including expulsion and a prohibitions from holding elective office for the rest of the their lives”.
The three Republican congressmen Andy Biggs, Paul Gosar, and Mo Brooks were named in a December Periscope video by Ali Alexander. “We four schemed up of putting maximum pressure on Congress while they were voting,” Alexander said. The purpose of the mob was to “change the hearts and the minds of Republicans who were in that body, hearing our loud roar from outside.” In a statement to the Washington Post, a spokesman for Biggs said that the congressman had never been in contact with Alexander or any other protesters and denied he helped organize the rally. This is not a credible statement. The newspaper Arizona Republic had previously reported that Biggs spoke at December 19 “Stop the Steal” rally that was hosted and promoted by Alexander, who even had a graphic made for the event, which was held at the Arizona state capitol. https://twitter.com/andreaheart19/status/1349181336397910017 In addition to Alexander, Congressman Andy Biggs is featured on the poster. The official Arizona Republican Twitter account also previously endorsed a tweet from Ali in which he claimed he would sacrifice himself in order to overthrow the constitution. --87.170.206.111 (talk) 15:10, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gallows photo

I changed the photo of the gallows yesterday to File:2021 storming of the United States Capitol DSC09156 (50826223403).jpg because I thought it was a better quality photo and more evocative. That's since been reverted; I don't know when. I think it makes sense to have one photo of it. Which should it be, option A or option B? I suggest option B, because it shows the Capitol, isn't in a weird perspective, and doesn't foreground InfoWars. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 03:56, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I changed it per this; Y2kcrazyjoker removed the gallows image from the infobox on account of the images being duplicates. Either one or none is fine with me for the body, but the infobox has to have option B. QuestFour (talk) 09:04, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option A
    Option A
  • Option B
    Option B

List of participants arrested

First, thank y'all guys for putting this together in real time. You have performed a valuable public service.

Secondly, I'd like to make a suggestion - there should be a page that lists all of the known participants of the storming that have been arrested and/or are wanted in connection with the riot. A page listing all the participants would be unnecessary, but a table showing all the major ones who have been positively identified, what crimes they have been arrested/ are wanted for and the status of their case would be helpful. This would help clear up the misinformation that they were antifa - most have expressed their opinions as Trumpists in no uncertain terms - as well as showing what the FBI and other agencies are doing to investigate and prosecute this incident.--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 22:10, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Most all of the participants/arrestees are not notable enough for inclusion in the encyclopedia, nor would they pass WP:BLP1E/WP:BLPCRIME standards (among others)... also, there is no way we would know them all, unless some massive list of arrestees was published by a third party reliable source... as for the overall "what the FBI and other agencies are doing to investigate", again, we only know what has been published, I can almost guarantee there is a lot of "behind the scenes" action they do not want the public to know about... and the sources already listed have done a good job of clearing up the antifa rumors... - Adolphus79 (talk) 22:39, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
See also Aftermath of the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol#Notable arrests and charges. WWGB (talk) 02:02, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Here ist a list Dignus est intrare (talk) 13:47, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am concerned this list violates wp:blp.Slatersteven (talk) 13:54, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to mainstream news sources, at least two of the people arrested are left wing activists

The intro refers to "a mob of supporters of U.S. President Donald Trump." Reliable sources have reported that at least two of the people who were arrested were left wing activists. And we have no idea how many more of those arrested were left wing. The first citation that I'm putting here is from Associated Press. The second citation is from KTVX, the ABC television affiliate in Salt Lake City, Utah.

[29] NYC man arrested on Capitol riot charges freed on $100K bond

January 12, 2021

NEW YORK (AP) — The son of a New York City judge who was arrested by the FBI on charges that he was among the protesters who stormed the U.S. Capitol was ordered Tuesday by a different judge to stay away from Washington. Aaron Mostofsky, 34, was picked up at his brother’s home in Brooklyn on Tuesday morning, about a week after he was seen inside the Capitol wearing a fur costume and a police vest he is accused of stealing during the mayhem. The charges include a felony count of theft of government property — a bulletproof police vest worth $1,905 and a riot shield valued at $265. Records show Aaron Mostofsky is a registered Democrat.

[30] Utah activist who provided video of deadly D.C. riot to investigators arrested

January 14, 2021

SALT LAKE CITY (ABC4) – A Utah activist is facing charges for his alleged involvement in the deadly U.S. Capitol protest last week. The Tooele County Sheriff’s Office tells ABC4’s Jason Nguyen that John Sullivan has been booked into their custody under a U.S. Marshall’s warrant. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, Sullivan has been charged with entering a restricted building or grounds without authority; civil disorders; and violent entry or disorderly conduct The criminal complaint filed against Sullivan lists him as the “leader of an organization called Insurgence USA through which he organizes protests.” He was arrested in June in connection to riots in Provo and charged with 3rd-degree felony riot and criminal mischief. In July, officials say Sullivan was charged with rioting and criminal mischief for the Provo riots. Federal investigators say they obtained a video posted on YouTube of Sullivan allegedly seen in the crowd, telling those around him over a microphone “we got to rip Trump out of office” and “we ain’t waiting until the next election.” He was also seen wearing a ballistic vest and a gas mask. S34V67hvE34F1 (talk) 01:00, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Being a "registered democrat" does not make someone a left wing activist. See [31] for the debunking of the other one. VQuakr (talk) 01:06, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is not at all unusual for very conservative ultra-Orthodox New York Jews like Mostofsky to register as Democrats. By no means does that make them "left wing". As for Sullivan, the other fellow, he is the only person arrested so far who has some sort of vague left wing credentials, though it is worth noting that he leads an one man extremist anarchist "group" that he created last summer. He should be assessed with great suspicion. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:49, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Those interested in the roll of John Sullivan, AKA Jayden X, may wish to view the video he took during the event which is on his YouTube channel (though any analysis wouldn't be appropriate for the article, given WP:OR and WP:RSPRIMARY).
Aside from giving a sense of his role, his 1h26m "Full Video: The Seige On United States Capitol" video gives an excellent view of what it was like to be there leading up to and through one of the forceful but not extremely violent breaches. (He wasn't at the very violent battle for the arched entrance, but he wasn't with one of the groups which appeared to have walked in without any resistance.) He was present at the entrance to the Speaker's Hall when Ashli Babbitt was shot, and his video has been used extensively without attribution. He records (and I think is the one who shouts), "There's a gun! There's a gun! There's a gun! Hey, he's got a gun!" 35 seconds before the shooting. -- ToE 08:17, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This article gives details of the political views of the close knit Mostofsky family. His older brother who was also at the Capitol on January 6, heads a group called "Chovevei Zion, a right-wing organization that self-professedly promotes “American Exceptionalism,” “Limited Government” and a “Unified Jerusalem” under the control of “Sovereign Israel,” the controversial idea that the Palestinian West Bank—which the group refers to as Judea and Samaria—should be incorporated into the State of Israel." Very far from left wing. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 21:01, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can we stop fighting over the title?

Seriously. We're suddenly too obsessed with it. I think the current (if without "2021") is already fine-- others can be redirects. Us fighting over a small thing as a title won't serve good to anyone. Call it what you want-- coup, insurrection, rape, death of the United States-- you just don't need to blast like hell over a pack of cigarette. GeraldWL 07:18, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Its not a small thing, its about image and how we present armed insurection.Slatersteven (talk) 11:56, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Slatersteven, still, people are fighting and acting incivil because of this. This is WP20, people. Act civil. Act mature. GeraldWL 15:11, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe they are, but this is because it is not trivial.Slatersteven (talk) 15:31, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Slatersteven, that doesn't give them the pass. It is a violation of the policy. GeraldWL 15:36, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't notice people fighting over the title. This article is on an important topic and deserves to have the best title it can have. This title is not that bad (certainly better than "protests") but could be significantly better. When the title is changed to something more encyclopedic, it won't be changed again for a long time. The outline of the procedure has already been set at the time of the closing of the big RtM, and the discussion in this section can't affect it. Too many people are simply waiting for the next couple of days to go by, to start a proper new move discussion. The RtM is coming 100%. Alalch Emis (talk) 17:39, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is an encyclopedia and even though Wikipedia has a generally contemptable reputation people still trust this website to get the job done right and they trust this website (1.9 million people so far) for information on any subject. So yeah, words matter. In 15 years when this is a history lesson, a kid who probably isn’t even born yet, will come here looking for answers. Trillfendi (talk) 17:49, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
While I think that argument is straying into WP:CRYSTALBALL territory, I do think that there should be more of a focus on the content of the page than squabbling over the title. The lead section says which other terms people are using which should really cover all bases; maybe there could be a section on terminology if it comes to that. –Bangalamania (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So... "The storming/Storm of the United States Capitol"? Like Der Stürmer, Sturmabteilung, The Daily Stormer?--217.234.73.139 (talk) 19:07, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Or the Storming of the Bastille, or Storming of the Winter Palace... Neither of which are related to neo-Nazism or QAnon conspiratorialism. --Bangalamania (talk) 19:32, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Bangalamania True, there was a time when a swastika was not a Hakenkreuz but a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck. Tempi passati!--93.211.214.79 (talk) 06:43, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@93.211.214.79: Not sure what you mean by this, and I hope you're not implying fascist sympathies on my part. A swastika outside a Hindu temple is obviously still a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck; one tattooed on the arm of a white supremacist isn't. So I agree that context matters.
"Storm" is defined, among other things, as "(of troops) suddenly attack and capture (a building or other place) by means of force." That is still a current definition of the term, which correlates to the usage above. The term 'storming' has also been used by numerous reliable sources to refer to the incident. Yes, the term 'storm' (in German) was used a lot by the Nazis, but with a completely different meaning.
(FWIW it's not my preferred term in prose either, as I can see how the phrasing may glamorize the event as a heroic battle of sorts. But linking the term "storming" – to refer to the capture of a building – to the stormtroopers or Der Stürmer is a terminological error.) --Bangalamania (talk) 13:50, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This meta-discussion will have no effect on the article itself. No one will be persuaded not to squabble over the title, because no one is squabbling in the first place. Although, if you falsely premise your question by using loaded language ("fighting"), you will probably have people squabbling and fighting in this very section, signs of which are already appearing. Conclusion: this section simply needs to be closed. Alalch Emis (talk) 00:03, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What a joke. The lead and body needs more attention than the title does. As I said in my opposition in the RfC, the media calls the event a variety of ways, and it's unlikely that a wording is favored, thus the RfC won't lead anywhere. I've collapsed one NOTFORUM and CIVILITY violation subthread above, which is one of the signs that people are fighting before I even somehow "incited" the fight. You can love or hate Donald Trump, but that internal ideology has been exploded to this talk page, which is not a good way Wikipedia celebrates it's 20th. GeraldWL 06:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
body needs more attention than the title does – that's a fallacy of false dilemma. You are not doing anyone favors with posts like this. No one is fighting or squabbling over the name, but over politics. People are opening RMs because they think there is a better name. A name of an article is always important with regard to that article. You complain about fighting, but you've started an inane metadiscussion section using loaded language, relying on a fallacy, and complaining about other people's behavior. What a joke. Alalch Emis (talk) 15:24, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
...and from those discussions, deviating to NOTFORUM, then violating civility policy and start attacking people, include (but not limited to) one of the collapsed forums above? Well, whatever. Collapse this thread, warn me shit, whatever. This is America anyway. GeraldWL 15:33, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

News Coverage of this talk page

https://www.fastcompany.com/90593176/wikipedia-capitol-attack-name — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quota8Star (talk • contribs) 11:49, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That link is already featured above: "This article has been mentioned by a media organization". RetiredDuke (talk) 14:53, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like they changed the title though. RetiredDuke (talk) 14:56, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The main picture in the infobox is not representative of the mayhem and violence

We are currently using this picture [32] along with some others.

Because it's at the top of the infobox and is the largest picture when you first come to the article, it needs to be representative of the mayhem and violence that occurred that day. Showing a guy in an American flag jumpsuit carrying a flag doesn't do that. There are also no pictures from inside of the Capitol. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 17:45, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Useful reference: Department of Justice website which collates defendants and charges

Hi all

The Department for Justice has created a a website for tracking defendants and their charges for the insurrection , it could be useful as a reference for this or related articles

Thanks

John Cummings (talk) 17:52, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

John Cummings, great ref, thanks for finding it! ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 05:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

background section

Our article states:

"The Associated Press attributed the extremism that fueled the 2021 riot to the COVID-19 pandemic and the subsequent lockdowns. Widespread frustrations and acts of defiance towards the lockdown orders by individuals had allowed far-right groups like white supremacists and the American militia movement to recruit more people, and also led to more rapid radicalizations through social media."

I don't believe that it is correct to say that the AP is the author of this thinking (the article says "experts") and the AP did not say that the riot was caused by the pandemic lockdowns (though they are related). They said the rioters were "a melting pot of extremist groups: militia members, white supremacists, paramilitary organizations, anti-maskers and fanatical supporters of President Donald Trump, standing shoulder to shoulder in rage." Gandydancer (talk) 18:01, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is not really an incorrect statement, but perhaps it should be significantly rephrased and better sourced. Something should be said here. For example, the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping should probably be noted in this connection, but again, the connection must be made by RS. My very best wishes (talk) 18:12, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, I believe that it is an incorrect statement. This incident has been brewing for years and is in no small way related to the election of a black president and the way Hilary Clinton was absolutely hated by a certain segment of our society. Best to not get into reasons at all rather than use less than the whole spectrum of what has led up to this uprising. IMO. Gandydancer (talk) 18:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OK, but what text do you suggest instead? Just delete it? Something needs to be said here. My very best wishes (talk) 18:31, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The AP article puts it "a melting pot of extremist groups: militia members, white supremacists, paramilitary organizations, anti-maskers and fanatical supporters of President Donald Trump, standing shoulder to shoulder in rage." I certainly can't improve on their excellent wording but I know WP does not really like a lot of quotes. Let's wait and see what others have to say, OK? Gandydancer (talk) 18:42, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources now reporting that US officials believe participants intended to assassinate Vice President Pence and others.

There was previously a discussion about whether the "goals" section of the infobox should list assassination of Vice President Pence and others. There is new reporting on this aspect of the event, from NPR for example: https://www.npr.org/sections/insurrection-at-the-capitol/2021/01/15/957201436/u-s-says-rioters-at-capitol-aimed-to-capture-and-assassinate-elected-officials Lunasspecto (talk) 19:06, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, obviously [33]. That could be just like during the Armenian parliament shooting or as they planned with Gretchen Whitmer. That's why the attackers left the building immediately after realizing that the lawmakers are gone. They did not try to keep the building. The security personnel in the Capitol saved the day. My very best wishes (talk) 19:28, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, this is now apparently a subject of public disagreement amongst U.S. investigators, per USA Today: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/01/15/capitol-rioters-accused-aim-capture-and-assassinate-officials/4174807001/

So it may be too early to definitively state the opinion of investigators in the article after all. Lunasspecto (talk) 20:33, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously the claim was false. But it is worth including, along with the rebuttal, because it shows the reaction or over-reaction to the events. TFD (talk) 21:48, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Except that article in Usatoday does not rebut anything. It tells that according to official filing, "Strong evidence, including Chansley’s own words and actions at the Capitol, supports that the intent of the Capitol rioters was to capture and assassinate elected officials in the United States Government". At the same time, they say there is "no direct evidence of kill and capture teams". Sure, just the words of this strange guy is not a direct evidence. They will learn more during the investigation, but this is something discussed in many sources. Why do you think they brought the plastic handcuffs? My very best wishes (talk) 03:28, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that this is not a rebuttal. I think at this point the best is to give all pertinent info as it is stated; connections made between them is for hindsight. --Calthinus (talk) 03:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
According to an article in Business Insider, "Prosecutors also asked the judge to temporarily disregard their previous claims that Chansley had planned to "capture and assassinate elected officials," while leaving open the possibility they may make the claim again during a full trial."[34] I guess that's how prosecutors walk back absurd claims without losing face. For some reason the media ignored the even stranger claim that Chansley participated in "a violent insurrection that attempted to overthrow the United States Government." Of course Chansley isn't charged with any of these things. Also, I was wondering why Putin wasn't thrown into the mix. TFD (talk) 04:22, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Witness now attesting that certain participants had assassination of Pence and Pelosi as a goal. [35] I realize that this is controversial for many editors, but can we at least put it with an 'alleged' qualification under the goals section? Reyne2 (talk) 05:30, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The unnamed witness said that after "Spaz" and others entered the Capitol building, they said they would kill anyone they got their hands on, specifically mentioning Pence and Pelosi. They said they would return on the 20th and kill everyone they could. (The article provides a link to the witness's affidavit.) I think that is more accurate than implying they had some sort of sophisticated plan before they entered the building, like the terrorists in the Armenian parliament shooting. TFD (talk) 09:15, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Four Deuces, I assume you mean [36] this. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 09:44, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. TFD (talk) 10:00, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think listing abduction or assassination as a goal of part of the crowd that breached the Capitol (which is attested by some reliable sources) is different from saying that they had actionable plans to do so after their targets had been removed to a secure and heavily guarded room. Lunasspecto (talk) 13:11, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is no question that some of the rioters wanted to kill certain politicians - as they cried out loud during the storming and even admitted to the FBI later. However, what exactly did they plan (including creating the "teams") is under investigation. It is obvious from the videos that some of the attackers were well prepared and did act as teams to breach the building, as some experts noted. My very best wishes (talk) 19:14, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's why, according to news reports, the lawmakers will not be inside Capitol buildings in various US States starting Monday through Thursday. Hence there will be no attacks on the empty buildings. This is pretty much predictable. My very best wishes (talk) 22:02, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

six dead

Should we only be listing one police officer? Perhaps we should consider two?

Howard Liebengood was on duty and died shortly after from trauma he suffered at the event according to WP at https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/liebengood-capitol-police-death/2021/01/10/3a495b84-5357-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html

He should be recognized as a victim too. WakandaQT (talk) 23:11, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No. The cited source mentions that he was on duty during the event, but does not say that "trauma he suffered at the event" caused his death. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:25, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No. It's been reported his death was a suicide: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/liebengood-capitol-police-death/2021/01/10/3a495b84-5357-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html Inkwzitv (talk) 18:29, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 January 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. WP:SNOW procedural close. ~Anachronist (talk) 01:37, 16 January 2021 (UTC) ~Anachronist (talk) 01:37, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]


2021 storming of the United States Capitol → 2021 breach of US Capitol – seems overly wordy WakandaQT (talk) 23:20, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal: 1-month moratorium on move proposals

Closed, for various reasons: procedural, overtaken by events in light of the detailed RM proposal appearing below, and consnensus on a moratorium is unlikely to emerge anyway. ~Anachronist (talk) 17:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can we agree to a moratorium on move requests? I'm not claiming the existing title is ideal, but we need some time for the dust to settle here and the incessant requests aren't helpful. VQuakr (talk) 00:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a "weird moratorium." It's ridiculous to have so many move requests. David O. Johnson (talk) 01:11, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it's weird, unusual and concerning. It's not ridiculous to have many move requests. It reflects how the current name is unsatisfactory to many people. If it's unsatisfactory to many people, that's how it is – you can't "fix" the problem by stifling discussion. That's some blunt instrument methodology. Alalch Emis (talk) 01:16, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

False flag conspiracy theories

At this link – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol/Archive_7#False_flag_conspiracies – I find a discussion about adding a report of the widespread false attribution of the attacks to Antifa or other false-flag entities. The consensus there seems to be to include it. I agree; the charge has enough currency on right-wing websites that it is notable, so it should be reported, but the evidence against it should also be reported. Accordingly, a subsection about it was added.

Now, however, the information is not in the article. It has been relegated entirely to a section – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_reactions_to_the_2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol#False_flag_conspiracy_theories – in the daughter article. AFAICT there was no discussion of this change on Talk, so no reason to go against the previous consensus.

Per WP:SS, there should be at least a couple sentences in the main article, with a wikilink to the relevant section of the daughter article.

Have I overlooked a consensus for the removal? JamesMLane t c 01:28, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I blinked and discovered a whole buncha stuff had been split off to Domestic reactions to the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol. I wish we could've discussed that more before acting. soibangla (talk) 01:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, the conspiracy theories definitely warrant a mention here, with a wikilink to the daughter article. –Bangalamania (talk) 03:22, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2021

Rosanne Boyland’s death is currently described as “disputed” on the Wikipedia entry. Her death has been unequivocally confirmed as being a result of her trampling, which is verified by video evidence showing that she initially fell at or about 4:09pm when rioters attempted to shove their way past guards and into a tunnel entrance to the capitol. Her boyfriend, Justin Winchell, can be seen trying to pull her from the ground for the next 7 minutes. Just after 4:17, video shows two people attempting to perform CPR before ultimately carrying her up to the capitol police. She was taken by ambulance to a hospital and declared dead at 6:09pm, but the witnesses who attempted to render aid state that she was deceased when she was pulled from the crowd. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/15/us/rosanne-boyland-capitol-riot-death.html 47.221.16.157 (talk) 03:55, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 05:44, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Gwennie-nyan: Given their comment and the source, I would assume that they want the sentence Boyland's cause of death was disputed; one account said she was crushed to death, while another said she collapsed while standing at the side in the Capitol rotunda to be changed to something like Boyland was crushed to death. The article mentions that she was trampled near a western entrance of the Capitol due to the crowd trying to push their way into the Capitol. She ended up being brought into the Capitol without a pulse and she was pronounced dead at a local hospital. I am unsure if those details should be added to the paragraph, but I think a change should occur that she was crushed. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:03, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Current text now reads Boyland was trampled to death by people rushing to breach a tunnel entrance on the west side of the Capitol; her cause of death was originally disputed. Thank you @Super Goku V: for clarifying the edit request. Also thank you IP editor for trying to update the event with new sources. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 06:25, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Potentially misleading line

I apologize if this is completely incorrect, I have not done sufficient research on it so am going from what I gathered from random news sources. The line "Several social media and technology companies suspended or banned Trump's accounts from their platforms" – seems to imply that the event it self resulted in such a ban; but if I understand correctly (which again, I may not), the social media platforms banned Trump for his unapologetic response videos and posts, not the event it self...? Aza24 (talk) 05:41, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Aza24, Trump has been making incendiary comments on social media for years and only regarding election results did Twitter start tagging his tweets as misleading and misinformation. This event was pretty much what propagated the bans. It wasn't until this occurred that tech platforms banned Trump and started to crack down on misinfo and similar accounts. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 05:50, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sicknick

The Reuters article cited only says he suffered a stroke, not specifically a thrombotic stroke, and suffered that later after sustaining injuries, not specifically a head injury causing it. The writer of that sentence is being too medically-specific for the information available. FYI, injured bones can also cause blood clots. The Sun article also quoted a member of the police force who said exposure to chemicals used that day may have exacerbated the injuries he sustained, which we know at minimum included being shoved and being hit by a fire extinguisher tossed at his head. 2600:2B00:7628:D700:C8BF:437C:A902:A1B3 (talk) 07:30, 16 January 2021 (UTC) -Reticuli[reply]

Clarify sections "Planning of the storming" and "Rioting in the Capitol building"

Now that we can see the House article of impeachment does not allege that Trump planned the storming, this section needs some re-heading / re-writing.

The section Planning of the storming begins by attributing 'plans' to Trump, as if he was instigator of the planning of the storming. Then Amy Kremer is mentioned as if she were an accomplice in Planning the storming. The second paragraph states that Ali Alexander 'took part in organizing the rally and expressed support for the storming as "completely peaceful" ' (as if 'storming' could be peaceable), but Alexander cannot be seen as a reliable source for the intent of Trump or Kremer at any time time, planning or at the event. The third paragraph begins 'The rioters planned openly', as if Trump, and Kremer and others whose intent was not riotous, were also rioters.

There is evidence that many, perhaps most, of the crowd had assembled with peaceable not riotous intent, such as[37] cited in the article. See also[38] cited at Amy Kremer. Is there any evidence that any of those with peaceable intent such as Kramer were among those who riotously trespassed by entering the building or clambering the walls or inciting others to do that? Some who entered did not break in but went in by a door opened to them by the police.

It is notable that the House Article of Impeachment does not claim that Trump Planned the storming. It alleges instead that on January 6 he

'addressed a crowd at the Ellipse in Washington, DC. There, he reiterated false claims that "we won this election, and we won it by a landslide". He also willfully made statements that, in context, encouraged—and foreseeably resulted in—lawless action at the Capitol, such as: "if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore". Thus incited by President Trump, members of the crowd he had addressed, in an attempt to, among other objectives, interfere with the Joint Session's solemn constitutional duty to certify the results of the 2020 Presidential election, unlawfully breached and vandalized the Capitol, injured and killed law enforcement personnel, menaced Members of Congress, the Vice President, and Congressional personnel, and engaged in other violent, deadly, destructive, and seditious acts.'

That looks like carefully avoiding alleging planning or taking part in the 'storming' or riotous or other conduct for which many individuals are being charged. Outside legalese that could be worded 'Thus inflamed by President Trump'. Qexigator (talk) 10:30, 16 January 2021 (UTC)edit10:40, 16 January 2021 (UTC)12:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There are no sources provided that say the storming of the Capitol was planned. Sources report two allegations: (1) the demonstrations were planned and (2) Trump incited the violence. TFD (talk) 11:17, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and those two points could well be covered in this way:
In the main section ' Background', the first sub-head could be changed to 'Planning the rally' leaving it to be followed by the sub-heads '...donations'. and 'Prior ...concerns of violence'.
In the next man section, sub-heading 'Pennsylvania Avenue march' begins 'instigated by Trump to help him overturn the election result...' and later reads 'Around 1:00 p.m. EST, hundreds of Trump supporters clashed with officers and pushed through barriers along the perimeter of the Capitol..'
Qexigator (talk)
There's a problem with the sequence in the section. it makes it appear that Trump supporters clashed with officers after Trump's speech. In fact it was near the end of his speech and before the people listening to his speech departed for the Capitol. (The speech ended at 1:09, the clash had occurred at 1:00.) TFD (talk) 13:09, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and that sequence tallies near enough with Timeline of the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol article. Qexigator (talk) 18:13, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The sequence of events described in the sub section on Rioting in the Capitol building could be made clearer by expanding the first sentence (after the heading 'Pennsylvania Avenue march') to read:

By 11.00 a.m. The Ellipse, near the White House and some distance from the Capitol, was filled with a a rally of Trump supporters. Coming from the White House, Trump addressed the rally at The Ellipse, from 12 p.m. to 1.10.p.m., encouraging this crowd to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue to the Capitol. At the end of his speech, Trump returned to the White House while the crowd began their walk to the Capitol. Meanwhile, by 12.30 p.m. another crowd of Trump supporters had gathered outside the Capitol building. clashing with the police and pushing forward to the building. The crowd walking up Pennsylvania Avenue from The Ellipse arrived at the Capitol after the disturbances there had begun.

Qexigator (talk) 18:13, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Given that the re-heading / re-writing proposed above is essentially copy editing, not adding, removing content or changing the purport of the current version, I propose to go ahead with this fairly soon. Please tweak or comment. Qexigator (talk) 20:07, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Qexigator (talk) 23:03, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Daughter pages

Edits requested on topics once they aRe moved to daughter pages are not happening. I don’t edit Wikipedia, but I frequently follow and request edits from the experts. I’m seeing this happen. Just so you know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:F90:6950:61B9:480:C5E:D3C5 (talk) 12:29, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Major security failure

I couldn't find anything in this article saying that this was a major security failure or mention of the resignations. It should have greater attention. TFD (talk) 13:17, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See the article Aftermath of the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol. WWGB (talk) 13:23, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I think there should be more discussion of this in this main article also, as I said at the time of the split. Might work on it later if nobody else does. BlackholeWA (talk) 13:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Read. And don’t use the words “intelligence failure“ or “security failure“ about the events of January 6. Don’t. It was a decision-maker failure to act adequately based on warnings received. --87.170.203.43 (talk) 22:43, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 January 2021

2021 storming of the United States Capitol → Insurrection at the United States Capitol – Introduction: This is the big RM that people have been waiting for, for the past week or so. Saturday evening seems like a good time to start this. This is an important article and needs to have the best name it can have. Enough days have passed, while not too many, and this is the ideal time to have a very calm and substantive discussion. The name will always be slightly contested. This is not a reason not to proceed – WP:RMCM.

The formatting must be correct now. Please only advocate in the form of "Support" or "Oppose" without suggesting alternatives. If you think a very close variant of the above such as "United States Capitol insurrection" is better, type "Support". A bold editor, or a subsequent technical move process will take care of this detail. Please remember that United States Capitol can't be shortened to Capitol or US Capitol.

Policy statement: WP:NCE, there is an established common name for this event, based on "where" (United States Capitol) and "what" (Insurrection). The differences in the exact phrasing of the common name variants are neutral and unimportant. The article title does not need the "when" (the year), because the event is so immediately identifiable. The event is immediately identifiable because it is unprecedented and important. WP:PRECISE, insurrection is the most specific/precise descriptor. Competent people such as academics and reputable journalists describe the event as an insurrection. Using "insurrection" to describe this event meets the definition of insurrection. This usage is not controversial or contradicted by an authority. WP:NDESC, insurrection is a neutral descriptior. Major political figures on both sides of the spectrum have described the event as an insurrection. WP:CONCISE, insurection is a concise descriptor.

Another relatively prominent term used to describe the event is "coup attempt" / "failed coup". This use is less prominent than insurrection. WP:COUP, coup is a strong word. Using "coup" to describe this event doesn't meet the definition of coup. When it's being called an attempt it's very unclear but for which aspect of failure of the coup, the coup would have succeeded, in order for the event to ultimately meet the definition of a coup in the first place – only then to be seen as an attempt. There is no such logical problem with insurrection, of which there can not be an attempt, because the consequence is not included in the definition. Insurrection is an insurrection regardless of success. A quashed insurrection is not "attempted insurrection" but merely an insurrection. This is very opportune for the purposes of robust article naming. Coup is not used in the article body in wikivoice. Insurrectionist (implying nothing other than insurrection) is. Apart from insurrection and coup there is no other term even approaching commonness. "Riot", "breach", "siege", "attack", "assault", "invasion" are inadequate for not meeting the above standards either partially or at all.

The same goes for "storming". It should be noted that "storming" and "insurrection" are not mutually exclusive. The storming was one the methods. Among other actions (such as attempted bombing), it was the 'how' to the 'what'. The name needs to reflect the 'what'.

Sufficient evidence of the proposed name being the common name is already included in this page – I urge you to look it over. I won't even link it as I think it's unnecessary.

Process statement: The current name is a result of an expeditious proposal to change the name primarily to something other than "2021 United States Capitol protests". "Protests" was adequate for a brief moment, but as things took a violent turn, a discussion took place to urgently replace that with something sensible. At that time, the real motivation, as well as the standard used, for the move was mere propriety and common sense. There was consensus about "protests" in the negative, but consensus in the positive – over the common name was certainly not achieved, not to any serious degree, as no such thing could have even existed then (the very same day, and the following one). A great number of pro-move participants advocated for "insurrection", and there were many other proposals with significant support as well. Therefore, scores of users typed "Support" while simultaneously suggesting an alternative. What transpired was an unusual, miserably formatted, and essentially irregular, but still quite justified, move process. This is how things go in unprecedented situations. 

As a matter of circumstance, the term proposed was "storming", but "storming" was not particularly favored over other terms in reliable sources. When some media put "storm" (verb) in their headlines, that was not indicative of "storming" as a chosen descriptor. The notion of the event as a whole and the primary action driving it (the verb "to storm") are not the same thing and should not be confused. Now it's evident that "storming" has not become the common name. 

All of this can be gleaned from what the deciding administrator said in his closing message: This is a stopgap measure, and is not meant to be a permanent solution. Once the issue calms down, I encourage folks to tackle this again. Please wait at least a week until further renaming, so that the media can agree on a WP:COMMONNAME. I also suggest that if an RM is going to have multiple options to use things like "Option A" or "Option 1", so that it is easier to close :)

Regardless of this, the current name isn't terrible. This is not about how "storming" is bad, but how "insurrection" is better; and not only better - that it's sufficiently better to warrant a move; and not only that - that it's exactly the best name, because it's the common name. This discussion is not how what happened was not a storming. Yes, arguably, it was also a storming. It was several things. This article is most certainly dealing with the whole phenomenon, evidenced in the inclusion of the pipe bombs and events in other cities. Still, this discussion is also not about how "storming" might have certain problematic connotations. This discussion has nothing to do with criminal adjudication for some crime of "insurrection" as that's not an element to the notion of insurrection, which is a fact of physical and social reality, that criminal law is only a minor facet of; criminal law does not answer "what is real" but "is X criminally liable for Y". An insurrection can happen in a tribal community or in a territory without a criminal justice system. This discussion has nothing to do with the current impeachment proceedings whatsoever; it's not about Donald Trump's role and incitement, as there can be an insurrection without incitement. This discussion is not about guns, and insurrectionists being armed or "well-armed", as this is not required for there to be an insurrection under most definitions, and since some or many indeed were armed, the remaining definitions are met too. 

Either way, this discussion has only a little bit to do with definitions (only in the context of preciseness), but it has everything to do with the common name, as previously discussed.

Conclusion: Be bold. Don't glorify the status quo as a result of a previous wonderful Wikipedia consensus-reaching process. The process was fine for what it was, but it wasn't excellent or conclusive by any means. Now we can have a truly excellent process. This is the only way to stop the torrent of RMs. Not "moratoriums" on discussions. This is the decisive action that this article needs to become the best it can be for a long time to come. Alalch Emis (talk) 17:00, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

We are discussing this at some length above, it does no one any favours to have it discussed in three or four separate threads. Can we please combine it all into one?Slatersteven (talk) 17:03, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is a formal move request resulting from existing discussions reaching a natural endpoint and essentially converging on "insurrection". Alalch Emis (talk) 17:08, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think they include the Epoch Times precisely to show that is is a fringe source. StAnselm (talk) 20:37, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Epoch Times and Breitbart are listed at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources as unreliable, because they have intentionally published falsehoods and conspiracy theories. Epoch Times is a propaganda outlet for Falun Gong. The selection of sources by Visualcapitalist does not follow stats from other sites on the most popular news websites. According to [39] only 38% of Americans get their news from web sites, so more weight should be given to TV, radio, and print sources (though these overlap with web sources). -- Beland (talk) 20:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@StAnselm: Makes sense. Good point. @Beland: I agree that fringe sources like Epoch Times and Breitbart should be excluded from such a count, but it wouldn't change the outcome: "capitol riot" is the most common term (by a large margin). As far as I can tell, "insurrection" isn't even in the top three ("attack" and "siege" are more common). — Chrisahn (talk) 20:55, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. The OP says the event meets the definition of “insurrection”. That is incorrect. I recommend that people actually look up Insurrection. It has no article of its own; it is a redirect to “Rebellion”. That article gives one brief definition of “insurrection,” saying “An armed but limited rebellion is an insurrection,[2] and if the established government does not recognize the rebels as belligerents then they are insurgents and the revolt is an insurgency.” Note that according to this classification, an insurgency is supposed to be “armed”, and the established government is supposed to recognize the rebels as belligerents. The current incident did not meet either of those conditions. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:08, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your parsing of that definition is off the mark. You seem to have misread this part: "...if the established government does not recognize the rebels as belligerents...". Does not recognize. In an insurrection, the government does not recognize the other side as belligerents. What took place was by all accounts an armed and limited rebellion against the United States government. I don't put an emphasis on the armed part but some or many were armed, and there were pipe bombs. Other definitions don't put an emphasis on this part either, but on violence. That excerpt from a WP article is not the best source (not bad either, but not the best) and does not even try to present a ground-up definition of insurrection but derives it, differentially, from rebellion, which is the topic of the article. Alalch Emis (talk) 21:59, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, yours is off the mark. Please reread the whole phrase you quoted part of. It says, "if the established government does not recognize the rebels as belligerents then they are insurgents and the revolt is an insurgency." Again: when the government does not recognize the other side as belligerents, that is an insurgency. Not an insurrection. If it does recognize the other side as belligerents, then it could be an insurrection according to this definition - but the government did not do that in this case. An insurrection is an armed but limited rebellion where the government does recognize the other side as belligerents. That's not what happened here. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Here you go, use Ctrl+F "Capitol". None of the included incidents were an insurrection, nor do they remotely resemble an insurrection. Simply: nothing like this has ever happened before. Alalch Emis (talk) 22:48, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 January 2021 (2)

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: closed per WP:RM procedure for controversial topics. Only one proposal at a time. The proposal above also removes the year. ~Anachronist (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC) ~Anachronist (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]


2021 storming of the United States Capitol → Storming of the United States Capitol – Slipping in the many overwhelming move requests; this might just be approved instantly. See #Removal of the year 2021 in the title. for more info. Basically, this is the first time the Capitol is "stormed" or "looted", and thus the specifier "2021" is redundant. GeraldWL 17:10, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Procedural close as per WP:RMCM Do not create a new move request when one is already open on the same talk page – there's a RM right above yours :) Alalch Emis (talk) 17:13, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Source for crushing of boyland - nyt (new)

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/15/us/rosanne-boyland-capitol-riot-death.html

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