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Discussions should run for at least 14 days before being closed;
Discussions should have at least 4 participants before being closed;
For a change to the list to be implemented, it must have over 60% support;
For a change to the list to be implemented, it must have 4 support votes;
Discussions should remain open until 7 days after the most recent vote.
14 days ago: 17:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
7 days ago: 17:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as History and Geography subjects:
Add major Polish uprisings from Polish-Russian-German history[edit]
Countering sys bias a bit. Major Eastern Europe history stuff and key events in Polish history. The concept of uprisings in Polish history is an important part of the modern Polish historical identity because of the following four key events. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:00, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Added 4-0. Makkool (talk) 11:56, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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41 interwikis, 186 daily page views. The first of the series of Polish uprising against Russia/Germany that defined the period of Polish history for 123 years (period of Partitions of Poland4. Stuff that all people in Poland know about, basic element of modern patriotic education and therefore Polish historical identity. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:00, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems important to European and Polish history. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:24, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Polish uprisings are crucial for the entire region.Marcelus (talk) 19:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:54, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss
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43 interwikis, 307 daily page views. The second major uprising (see above). Stuff that all people in Poland know about, yadda yadda. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:00, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
42 interwikis, 329 daily page views. The third major uprising (see above). Stuff that all people in Poland know about, yadda yadda. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:00, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Added 5-0. Makkool (talk) 19:48, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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52 interwikis, 1215 daily page views. The fourth major uprising (see above); this one is from WW2. Stuff that all people in Poland know about, yadda yadda. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:00, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Polish uprisings are crucial for the entire region. One of the biggest battles by the underground army during WW2. Marcelus (talk) 19:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure about the others, but this should definitely be on here. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:18, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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49 interwikis, ~850 daily page views. While this one is somewhat less famous in Poland, it is perhaps more famous internationally (although pageviews don't support this) and also is an important part of the modern Jewish history as well as the Holocaust history. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:00, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Polish uprisings are crucial for the entire region. Biggest Jewish act of resistance during the Holocaust. Marcelus (talk) 19:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Biggest Jewish uprising against the Holocaust. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:19, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just solving some bias towards state capitals, extreme underrepresentation in specific U.S. states, and the absence of significantly-sized metropolitan areas. Vileplume(talk) 01:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not removed 3-0, not swapped 3-2. Makkool (talk) 08:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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North Dakota has a population of under 800k and does not need a second city. Meanwhile, Minnesota only has the Twin Cities and this is its next-largest metropolitan area. Vileplume(talk) 01:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support
Support swap as nom. Vileplume(talk) 01:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support remove --Makkool (talk) 12:25, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Oppose Duluth per discussion closed on January 16. Oppose Bismarck as a non-trivial state capital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose swap with Duluth per prior discussion --Makkool (talk) 12:25, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discussion
Was going to support a swap but Bismarck has 116 interwikis??? They must be doing something right. But I also do like adding Duluth which is a regional economic power in the Great Lakes area. Aurangzebra (talk) 07:29, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, it only has that many interwikis for being a state capital. Montpelier, Vermont has a similar number. Vileplume(talk) 13:36, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh didn't notice that. I support swap then. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:48, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair but if Vileplume and I had noticed that thread and voted, it probably wouldn't have passed. Up to Vileplume if they want to withdraw. Aurangzebra (talk) 21:51, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh never mind, that thread was before the rule change. Aurangzebra (talk) 21:54, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Metro area and county are coextensive with the city, which is at ~58k. This is a state of 3.1 million and 3 cities we're talking about. Vileplume(talk) 01:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you give the reasoning behind your oppose? Vileplume(talk) 02:18, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sold on the "this State needs more, this state needs less" line of argument. I also think the Carson city-Virginia City area is historically significant pbp 14:22, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discussion
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New Mexico has a population of 2.1 million, and 43.6% of that is concentrated in the Albuquerque metropolitan area. Only thing it has going for it is being the oldest state capital. Vileplume(talk) 01:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support
Weak support as nom. Vileplume(talk) 01:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Been a capital for well over 300 years. More to notability than just population pbp 02:09, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per pbp. J947 ‡ edits 02:39, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discussion
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Georgia has a population of 11 million and yet has only two cities listed, the same number as Alaska, one of under three-quarters of a million. Metro population of 624k, certainly enough for V5. I'd also add Columbus. Vileplume(talk) 01:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Augusta, though I would oppose Columbus if it were proposed because its metro population is significantly smaller than both Augusta and Savannah. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 07:04, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not added 1-4. Makkool (talk) 08:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Pennsylvania has a population of 13 million, great historical importance, is itself listed at V4, and yet has only three cities listed, the same number as Connecticut, one of only 3.6 million. Metro population of 871k, certainly enough for V5. This is also the largest city in northern Pennsylvania. In addition to this, I'd also consider adding Reading. Vileplume(talk) 01:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support
More vital than Harrisburg imho. Vileplume(talk) 01:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per prior discussion. Consensus could change at some point, but I think it's best to wait a bit. - Presidentmantalk · contribs (Talkback) 21:16, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per prior discussion --Makkool (talk) 12:25, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discussion
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Metro area quickly approaching one million. South Carolina's population is high enough for a third city, imho. Vileplume(talk) 01:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All it's got going for it is that its metro area got big in the last 20-30 years. Not as notable as Santa Fe pbp 02:14, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose. Potentially vital but not the first Southern city I would add after Augusta. - Presidentmantalk · contribs (Talkback) 04:11, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not as vital as some other Southern cities and (particularly) not as vital as some US regions I would add. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 03:34, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discussion
An alternative addition is Upstate South Carolina, which basically corresponds to Greenville’s CSA and is significantly larger than Greenville’s city proper or its urban area. Vileplume(talk) 14:20, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That could be a good solution, but I'm still not sure this region is as vital as some that are not yet listed. For example, I was thinking about the Fort Lauderdale discussion above and wondering whether including South Florida would be a good way of including a wider area. Although, consensus so far is in favor of keeping Fort Lauderdale which would make such an addition moot. Presidentmantalk · contribs (Talkback) 16:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Not swapped 2-3. Makkool (talk) 08:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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McAllen's metro area is quickly approaching 900k. However, it is too close to Brownsville, so I've put it up for removal. Vileplume(talk) 01:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support
Support addition, weak support removal as nom. Vileplume(talk) 01:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support addition; support removal. J947 ‡ edits 02:44, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Oppose addition, oppose removal. Population isn't everything. Doesn't seem to be anything notable about McAllen besides the fact that it's the 56th largest MSA in the United States. At least Brownsville seems to have a historic legacy. Aurangzebra (talk) 07:22, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above --Makkool (talk) 12:25, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discussion
They're both notably large but they're also both dependent on their bigger Mexican neighbours: Matamoros, Tamaulipas5 and Reynosa5 respectively (though McAllen looks to be significantly less dependent). J947 ‡ edits 02:44, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Not swapped 3-3. Makkool (talk) 08:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Of all cities to have their central business district listed, why Chicago? Aurora is its largest satellite city, so I've put that up for addition. Vileplume(talk) 01:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Not added 1-2. 4 participants in discussion. Makkool (talk) 08:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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A leading international financial centre, and one of the two central business districts of London3.
Hmm I just checked page views, City of Westminster and Canary Wharf receive basically the same number of views, whereas Westminster (not listed at VA5) has somewhat fewer and La Défense has a lot fewer (granted probably because this is the English Wikipedia). There is no geographic overlap between the City of London and Canary Wharf, if that makes any difference. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 15:35, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For comparison purposes (in terms of how many people are looking things up) pageviews of Westminster and City Of should probably be added together. Totalibe (talk) 15:49, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Feminist: perhaps discuss swapping City of Westminster for Westminster? pbp 14:57, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not the first district of London that I'd add pbp 14:46, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss
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More expansive region of Greater London that includes Canary Wharf. Addresses current use as financial center and past use as shipping hub. pbp 14:57, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not convinced London needs more than two listings. Could potentially support a swap. - Presidentmantalk · contribs (Talkback) 16:11, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Moncton's been NB's largest city since before V5 existed. I think Fredericton would be the most appropriate article to swap out since we only have 42 US state capitals and we can cut a Canadian provincial capital. Canada also looks a bit overrepresented at V5 with 22 cities and a population of 39 million. Vileplume(talk) 02:33, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose removal, support addition - We are under quota in Cities and Fredericton seems important in its own right (as the cultural, educational and administrative center of the province). --Makkool (talk) 12:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
New Brunswick has a population of under 900k, and Saint John is much more important than Fredericton, so it and Moncton should be NB’s two representatives at V5. Vileplume(talk) 13:11, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't doubt that Saint John is important too. Why can't we have three cities for New Brunswick? -Makkool (talk) 14:46, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Q3 2023 population ~843k. Quebec’s three largest cities are all larger than any of NB’s, yet Sherbrooke is not V5. Vileplume(talk) 15:12, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if this will be a popular opinion, but we could possibly discuss whether to extend the decades we list to the 19th century since we now list all the decades of the 20th and 21st century. We don't have to include all the decades, just the ones that are important. Interstellarity (talk) 01:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In order for us to seriously consider them, please list them individually. We need to at least see individual links to consider this seriously-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:32, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alabama's second-largest city and a major port on the Gulf Coast (twelfth-largest in the U.S.). It was also a key center of French colonization and played a major role in the Civil War.
Support, the second largest city warrants a place --Makkool (talk) 12:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
City proper is not the best metric. In metro population, it’s Birmingham, Huntsville, Mobile, and Montgomery. Vileplume(talk) 13:15, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a V5-ish city of importance, but Alabama only has a population of 5 million inhabitants and 4 major cities, so I'd only support this if we removed Montgomery or Tuskegee. Sarasota is also over twice as large and not listed. Vileplume(talk) 17:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I considered proposing a swap, but both Montgomery and Tuskegee were proposed for removal recently and kept with strong opposition to removing. Presidentmantalk · contribs (Talkback) 19:02, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion
Some topics to add under Urban studies and planning[edit]
Definitely vital, but @Feminist: why is this under Cities? QuicoleJR (talk) 13:30, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because the “public” part is what differentiates the topic from the toilet apparatus itself, I see this as an urban studies and planning topic, hence under Cities. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 17:12, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These two are the smallest and least-populous of the seven Canary Islands.
Support
Remove both, as nominator. feminist🚰 (talk) 07:41, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, and would likely consider removal of few more; looking at the list, some are famous enough for V5, sure, but not all. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:29, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although Lisbon surpasses the Algarve in terms of tourism revenue, the Algarve is still, overall, considered to be the biggest and most important Portuguese tourist region, having received an estimated total of 4.2 million tourists in 2017.
Support
As nominator. It's a tossup between this and Faro, Portugal for me; page views for both are similar, with a slight edge for Algarve. feminist🚰 (talk) 14:25, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Certainly more vital than many of the random subdivisions we have. - Presidentmantalk · contribs (Talkback) 16:23, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would list this over Faro. Vileplume(talk) 18:17, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Recently it has been pretty touristic but is it going to held in the long-term? Not a vital region, in my opinion. The Blue Rider 21:05, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The region was also historically a separate kingdom, and it maintains a distinct regional identity apart from the wider Portuguese one. I would much rather have broader regions like the Algarve than political entities like first-level subdivisions that could change. Presidentmantalk ·contribs (Talkback) 16:32, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An insignificant kingdom that was not separate of the Kingdom of Portugal, so insignificant that portuguese people don't even study it at school. It does not maintain a distinct identity, Portugal is pretty homogenous culturally. The Blue Rider 20:58, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per Blue Rider --Makkool (talk) 12:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's good to have a few articles on pre-Columbian history that go beyond ethnicities and states. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:14, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support --Makkool (talk) 12:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:07, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Small, uninhibited islands which are not in dispute and do not provide any meaningful strategic significance like fishing rights, shipping access or oil rights to a particular country are not vital. Gizza(talk) 01:45, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know there's a disproportionate amount of Eastern European topics, but I think these still warrant an addition. Feel free to balance these by suggesting something to add for Western Europe.
Added 7-0. Makkool (talk) 19:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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The Orange Revolution was a major point in modern Ukraine's history distancing them further from Russia.
Support
As nom. --Makkool (talk) 20:41, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems quite important. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:43, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Added 6-1. Makkool (talk) 19:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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A major event affecting the whole economy of Europe.
Support
As nom. --Makkool (talk) 20:41, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support over the country's politics. Vileplume(talk) 21:53, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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It's already one of the deadliest, bitterest conflicts of the 21st century. It has received enormous international attention, but unfortunately not enough of a coordinated response to stop it. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:03, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Very major war. @OhnoitsvileplumeXD: I feel like recentism is being fought a little too hard here, since it has already beaten some events we do list in terms of impact and death count. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:21, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is already much more impactful than the already listed 2014 Gaza War5Iostn (talk) 21:45, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose not a major war by most measures. I want to wait to see which impact it will in the international relations. The Blue Rider 16:40, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The eruption that destroyed nearly the entire island of Krakatoa is pretty important. Surprised it wasn't listed yet. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:29, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure that this is a notable enough subtopic of Desegregation in the United States5, and the Civil rights movement4 already has more than ten other subtopics on the list. Only 10 interwikis, and the Civil Rights Movement WikiProject only rates it Mid-Importance.
Think about it this way; if it weren't a state capital, would we list it at this level? This is not even the third largest metro area in Washington; the Tri-city area is. Pierce County has triple Thurston County's population, so Tacoma can probably stay over this one. It does have enough historical importance for an article, but that article has no interwikis and 10 daily page views. Vileplume(talk) 22:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In no universe is Seattle large enough for two satellite cities. Vileplume(talk) 15:04, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bellingham could be a good option as well if we're concerned about having too many Seattle suburbs. I just think Washington is a large enough state to justify having four cities at this level. Presidentmantalk · contribs (Talkback) 16:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Am quite certain that Everett is a) not VA5 level, nor b) as vital as Olympia pbp 16:57, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Metro Seattle definitely doesn’t deserve a third representative more than Chicagoland or the Metroplex. Vileplume(talk) 01:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. --Makkool (talk) 12:37, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
If it wasn't a state capital, we wouldn't list it. It IS a state capital pbp 23:50, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And we only list 41 state capitals. Vileplume(talk) 23:51, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How many states as large as Washington state don't have there capitals listed? How many state capitals as large as Olympia aren't listed? The state capitals we are missing are ones like Pierre and Montpelier that are tiny themselves or in tiny states pbp 14:12, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Meh, weak oppose per purplebackpack89. The Blue Rider 14:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose per everyone above. We are surprisingly below quota for Cities so I don't think we need to be in a rush to remove borderline cases like these. Aurangzebra (talk) 21:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm surprised that this wasn't listed yet. This earthquake and the subsequent fires destroyed over 80% of the city of San Francisco4, and it was the deadliest earthquake in the history of the United States. 47 interwikis, rated High-Importance by WikiProject Geology and Top-Importance by WikiProject Earthquakes and WikiProject California.
Because this event actually greatly influenced Muslims in other countries, it is definitely vital at this level. RekishiEJ (talk) 17:29, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:49, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense. @RekishiEJ: You are supposed to add yourself to the Support section as the nominator. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:27, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The world's longest estuary deserves a place on this list. It has most certainly made a more significant global impact than most of the Arctic islands we list simply for being large by land area. Vileplume(talk) 01:44, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quoting from the article: "Universally regarded as masterpieces of Buddhist religious art", a UNESCO heritage site. Some 70,000 views this past month and 77 interwikis.
I don't think the longest cave in Iran, a country not well known for its caves is vital for this level. 3 interwikis, 71 views past month.
Support add, neutral on swap - the Ghar Palau article hasn't received attention of readers (or editors), but it still seems like a major landmark. --Makkool (talk) 14:00, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to note, these articles would be in different categories. Because Ajanta Caves is more known for its artworks, it should be in the Arts section. And Ghar Palau is a natual cave, so adding Ajanta Caves in a different section wouldn't affect the quota in Physical geography. --Makkool (talk) 14:00, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is at least as consequential as the 1906 San Francisco earthquake, currently voted 5-0. One of the most destructive earthquakes of the 20th century, along with its subsequent fires and tsunamis, resulted in at least 100,000 deaths and had significant socio-political implications for Japan. The article argues that its aftermath fostered Japan's alignment towards authoritarianism during the interwar period.
I'm shocked that a single event with over 100K deaths isn't listed. Rated High-Importance by WikiProject Japan and Top-Importance by WikiProject Earthquakes. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Uninhabited island listed only for being large, and 40th largest in the world and 10th largest in Canada is not very impressive. This archipelago already has roughly 12 listings, and this is the smallest of them.
A large island visible on most world maps and globes. --Makkool (talk) 12:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Makkool: Sure, it's big, but it has little to no importance outside of that. Nobody even lives on it. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:13, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced that population is the only grounds for vitality. We list 446 islands, and it's easily among the most vital islands for Wikipedia in that range. --Makkool (talk) 14:46, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's an uninhabited island whose main claim to fame is being in the middle of Niagara Falls4. I'm not convinced that's enough to be vital at this level, especially when there are larger, populated, islands that are not listed.
Per nom. Our coverage of North American colonization is too heavily tilted towards English colonization. Presidentmantalk · contribs (Talkback) 23:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. The Blue Rider 19:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The American Revolutionary War4 could definitely use more than 3 battles when the Civil War has 16. This battle had major effects on the war, led to the Siege of Yorktown5 which ended the war, became the first American Revolution battle to have its battlefield preserved by the National Park Service, and it even has a town in New Hampshire named after it!
This cape does not seem to have any indications of vitality. It has no historical importance, seemingly no biological importance, and little geographical importance.
This was a major turning point in the history of apartheid, as it marks both the beginning of increased international isolation (including by Western countries) and internal unrest which was increasingly unmanageable in the 1980s (which was when the government made its first milquetoast attempts at reform).
The only thing I will say is that you could argue for 1994 South African general election to be listed instead (there don't even seem to be any individual elections listed interestingly) but this has broader scope.
Too specific. The Blue Rider 17:13, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really see how this is "specific", given it encompasses most of the early 1990s in South Africa, and aside from the negotiation process itself it also refers both to a political transition and a specific period of internal conflict between rival factions that was quite distinct from the majority of apartheid (more on this is detailed in the article, but to give just one out of many examples, you had several high-profile attacks involving the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging). The ultimate success of a peaceful transition of power in spite of this is a big part of how Nelson Mandela3 became one of the most revered political figures of the 20th century. Iostn (talk) 23:40, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, this article is essentially synonymous with "end of apartheid", or as close to an article as there is on that. The Soweto uprising was fourteen years before this specific period which lasted from 1990 to 1994. Iostn (talk) 20:27, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Listing the protests leading up to the 2017 Zimbabwean coup d'état5 (when they aren't that distinctive enough in their own right) feels rather redundant when they aren't super distintive in their own right, so swapping with another important Zimbabwean event.
I don't really see why the build-up to the invasion itself is vital as a separate article. The war crimes committed seem like a much more important topic to focus on.
Support removal. The Blue Rider 20:55, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Oppose adittion. Pretty minor conflict, besides we already list the protests, 2019–2020 Hong Kong protests5. The Blue Rider 20:52, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I actually proposed this over the smaller 2014 Hong Kong protests (2019 was not the beginning or end of this) deliberately as I felt it would be best to encompass those and others more broadly in a generalized overview of political tensions, I wouldn't be opposed to a similar Taiwan article either. Iostn (talk) 17:18, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, I've thought about this one too. Not sure the concept is that used in the academy or even popularly; the few interwiki links seem to suggest that no. The Blue Rider 20:55, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Very important colony that existed for hundreds of years, was the first major European land claim on the continent, and once controlled a sizable portion of the Southeastern United States.
The largest, most profitable and influential Portuguese colony; it lasted many centuries and dictated the foreign policy of the Portuguese Empire for many decades. Its establishment marked the beggining of European colonization in the Americas, as well as being the biggest reciever of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. As a major trade hub, it fueled Europe's Industrial Revolution with its resources and labor force. To omit Colonial Brazil from vital articles is to overlook a pivotal chapter in human history. The Blue Rider 19:40, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support
As nominator. The Blue Rider 19:40, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps not as influential as its counterpart, Dutch East India Company, but still a important for the Dutch colonization, some of them still last today (ABC islands, Sint Martin, etc). The Blue Rider 19:40, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support
As nominator. The Blue Rider 19:40, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Dutch Caribbean is certainly more vital than the seven Lesser Antillean nations. I was the nom of Willemstad5. Vileplume(talk) 02:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems decently important. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:47, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article describes it as the first genocide of the 21st century, which has been ongoing since 2003. It led to international outcry and eventually prosecutions in the ICC. (Note that the larger article on the War in Darfur5 is listed, but I feel the genocide on its own its vital enough at this level).
I've greatly expanded and improved the Mount Edziza article just recently which is about one of the highest volcanoes in Canada and one of the major volcanoes in British Columbia, as well as one of its most active volcanoes. Volcanoguy 18:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By that logic vital articles about mountains shouldn't be vital in mountain ranges that are vital (e.g. Mount Baker, Mount Rainier, Mount Shasta, Mount St. Helens, Mount Adams are in the Cascade Range which is a level-5 vital article. Also note in my proposal to add Mount Edziza volcanic complex a user claimed that we are still under quota in physical geography which I agree. There seems to be a bias towards articles relating to humans. Volcanoguy 19:16, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This doesn't seem vital enough to be listed alongside the larger volcanic complex. --Makkool (talk) 12:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Makkool: Yet the Spectrum Range is? You claimed in the other proposal that you didn't see why Spectrum Range couldn't stay along the volcanic complex article. I could argue Mount Edziza is more geologically important than the Spectrum Range, being the site of more recent volcanic activity. Volcanoguy 17:41, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just don't think we should list both the volcanic complex and its highest peak in this case. Besides, this project's consensus has been that recentism should be avoided when choosing articles. --Makkool (talk) 17:54, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Makkool: As pointed out above, why shouldn't the highest peak be listed alongside the volcanic complex if Mount Rainier and Mauna Kea are listed? Mount Rainier is the highest point of the Cascade Range and Mauna Kea is the highest point of the island of Hawaii. How doesn't Mount Edziza seem vital enough to be listed alongside the larger volcanic complex? It's almost just as long as the volcanic complex article and the other articles listed here, which means that they are all highly notable topics. I don't see how the project's anti-recentism has anything to do with this since it seems to be for individuals rather than landforms. Even so, Mount Edziza is slightly over one million years old while the other volcanoes listed here are no more than a million years old so that argument doesn't hold up. Volcanoguy 17:07, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Recent volcanic activity, or the length of the article are not things that would support including it in the list for me. Mount Rainier and Mauna Kea are notable for other things than just being the highest peak of their respective mountain ranges. EDIT: Edziza isn't the hightest peak of British Columbia for example. --Makkool (talk) 17:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss
Besides the -est' and most', why is it important? Be it geologically, environmentally, or even culturally. The Blue Rider 18:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@The Blue Rider: I would say it has geological significance since it's one of the most widespread areas of recent volcanism in Canada. The mountain and the surrounding area were established as a provincial park in 1972 to preserve the volcanic landscape. As for culture, Mount Edziza is sacred to the local Tahltan people as it was a source of obsidian. It provided them with weaponry, tools and trading goods that ensured they could thrive for thousands of years. Mount Edziza obsidian has been found outside Tahltan territory. Volcanoguy 19:55, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Being one of the 58 provincial capitals in Algeria does not make a city vital. Population is not that high and there is not very much historical importance. All it has going for it is having the home stadium for the Algeria national football team, which is not vital. It is also very close to the capital, further decreasing its vitality. Decent number of interwikis, but that is likely for the same reason as the U.S. state capitals. Overall, this city just doesn't have enough going for it to make the list.
I would support either of the swaps listed below. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Would support a swap with Tlemcen or Bejaia. --Makkool (talk) 12:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
10 cities for Algeria seems about right ratio-wise and in general, I'm inclined to oppose any city removal unless it's blatantly obvious it shouldn't be included because we are actually under-quota for Cities. However, I would support a swap with either Tlemcen (former capital of Medieval Muslim Algeria, more populous, other important historical events) or Béjaïa (largest city in Kabylia which is a region of Algeria that is large enough, culturally unique enough, and significant enough to the history of Algeria that it should also be at VA5 imo, 6th largest port on the Mediterranean, more populous). Aurangzebra (talk) 17:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose per Aurangzebra, although I would support either of the swaps. Vileplume(talk) 22:27, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss
Bilda is the fourth largest city of Algeria, Sidi Bel Abbès5 seems like a better removal. The Blue Rider 18:28, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strangely, that metric at list of cities in Algeria shows the population of Blida as over 100k more than the article on Blida does, despite being only four years older. Blida has the lowest population among the listed cities going by what the infoboxes in the articles say. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:07, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
West Germany5 and East Germany5 are already listed, I think that sufficiently covers it, no? The Blue Rider 21:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Both of those states were formed after the direct occupation/administration period, which is what this article is focused on Iostn (talk) 16:33, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
West and East Germany are concepts that were created during the allied-occupied Germany, not just after it. The Blue Rider 18:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This war saw direct confrontation between the world's two most populous countries. As both states have risen politically and economically, its salience remains important in geopolitics. For instance, during the 2020–2021 China–India skirmishes and the broader Sino-Indian border dispute.
Go (game)4 is VA4 and has been around for over two millennia, and the History of Games section is way too sports-based. The only other board game history article we have listed currently is History of chess5, and I think that there is room for a second one.
I'm aware that History of gambling does not exist as an article, but it would be the first "history of [game]" topic I'd want to add to the list if it does. I feel like "the most important game for which we have a separate History article on" is not a very good reason to include it, because it probably excludes more important topics which should be added first. I also think sports in general are more popular than games globally, and the greater element of competition in these sports means they have had a more developed history. The average Chinese person probably cares a lot more about, say, the China women's national volleyball team than they care about the game of Go, despite Go being strongly associated with China. feminist🩸 (talk) 15:12, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss
I beliebe mancala is older and played more. The Blue Rider 00:30, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
History of mancala does not exist as an article. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced that "history of [recreational item]" is a particularly important class of articles for us to include on this list. Most articles on entertainment and recreation topics are not long enough to warrant splitting out its History section into a separate article. Our article on Doll4 for example is mostly about the history of dolls, which is fine – there is no issue with not having History of dolls as a separate article, nor is the lack of inclusion of such an article on the V5 list a sign that we don't regard it as an important topic. feminist🩸 (talk) 15:18, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even if lasting peace takes place, I am not sure we need two vital articles to cover the Tigray War5. The Battle of Adwa, on the other hand, is a very important event in Ethiopian history. It is the culminating battle of the First Italo-Ethiopian War5, a symbol of Pan-Africanism5, and secured Ethiopia’s independence until the Second Italo-Ethiopian War4.
The city is closely linked to the historical event of Paul the Apostle's shipwreck in Malta. The island's governor, Saint Publius, received him in Mdina. Paul converted the entire island to Christianity and made Publius the 1st Bishop of Malta, who is now a patron saint of the country. Mdina is home to St Paul's Cathedral, serving as the seat of government for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Malta
Mdina is a significant tourist destination, welcoming over 1.5 million visitors annually.
Support
As nominator. The Blue Rider 00:33, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we Valletta is enough for Malta, for country with that low population. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss
Yes, the current population is only of a few hundreds but historically it had an higher population comparatively to the rest of the country. The Blue Rider 00:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but most would ignore current population for historical settlements. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 01:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Last comment 26 days ago. Removed 4-0. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The Caroline Islands5 have five other listing, six if you include the parent article. This island has a population of only 221, and has no apparent cultural, geographical, or historical importance. It should not be listed.
13 interwikis and 7 daily views. Whether this could be on a hypothetical 100k list is questionable. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 22:46, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Per our recent additions of natural disasters, this is "the most powerful volcanic eruption in recorded human history" and the most likely reason for the Year Without a Summer. Estimates suggest it is also the deadliest volcano eruption in history, directly causing over 71,000 deaths.
Given the low pageviews and interwikis, we may have too many History of sports articles (28). We recently voted to remove History of rodeo, and these are roughly similar in terms of significance, not to mention that Hurling5 is only V5.
Support histories of sports popular in one country (especially countries with medium or small populations) are not vital in a list of 50,000. Gizza(talk) 00:09, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As someone who has done water polo it saddens me to remove this article but it is a rather niche sport. Support per nominator.The Blue Rider 23:23, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bratsk is already covered by Irkutsk5 and Irkutsk Oblast5. Novokuznetsk, on the other hand, is a major coal mining and industrial centre and has the 16th highest GMP of all Russian cities. Up until recently, it had a higher population than Kemerovo5. It feels odd excluding it from a list of 6 cities in the Siberian Federal District, let alone 12. Compared to Bratsk, Novo has slightly more interwikis, double the English and Russian pageviews, and 2.4 times the population. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Had a profound impact on Central and Eastern Europe. The loss of about two-thirds of Hungary's pre-war landmass and population fueled nationalist sentiments and political instability, while internationally, it solidified the post-WWI order, leading to the creation or enlargement of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Austria and Romania.
I know this is sometimes mentioned in the U.S. media, but I am not sure it is so important to world history. We have 7 vital articles covering the Libyan Crisis (2011–present)5, which I think is a recentist bias for a V5 conflict.
In both of these cases, we already list Alexander Litvinenko5 and Alexei Navalny5 mostly making these redundant. In any cases, we have an overrepresentation of post-Soviet Russia where Khrushchev Thaw, which encompasses a key period marking a diversion from Stalinism in the Soviet Union, isn't listed.
Due to Navalny's recent passing, this may be unfortunately timed but I agree. Contemporary Russia does not merit such detailed coverage. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 07:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An important event in the early Edo period4, that had long-lasting ramifications for the Sakoku5 policy and Christianity in Japan. Amakusa Shirō5 is already a VA.
62 interwikis, but 194 dailies is not a lot. Cities of this size should usually be vital at this level, so I’ll support for now. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 22:00, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Kimberley is at 72-379, Polokwane is at 74-218, and Mbombela is at 70-206. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 23:03, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:16, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Per low view count. Besides being the most populous city of its province, it doesn't seem to have any particular grounds for vitality. Makkool (talk) 12:19, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why this dormant volcano is in the historical cities section. It looks like there are some Aboriginal heritage sites nearby, which got split into a different page; however, despite being a World Heritage Site, it just feels like it's here to give Oceania something for that section.
Support
SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:52, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support swap with Budj Bim heritage areas, per Gizza. I wonder if we could WP:BOLD and just replace this, as Budj Bim is clearly wrong, and they actually mean the archeological site? Makkool (talk) 17:53, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know about this. The article says that it was "currently the largest known settlement in Neolithic Europe". Could the article importance rating be misjudged? Makkool (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Nakba refers to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians that fractured their culture and society. The entire Israel-Palestine conflict can be traced back to this event. The 1948 Palestinian expulsion article refers to the broader exodus in the aftermath of the war, so I think that the Nakba article should go below the expulsion article, and the expulsion should go under the 1948 Arab-Israeli War which is already a level 5 vital article. Cadevo86 (talk) 13:05, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Nakba, at least (should definitely be listed) - although I was under the impression its synonymous with the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight? Can someone explain the distinction? Support both Iostn (talk) 13:33, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The page on the expulsion and flight says that "This article is about the expulsion and flight specifically. For the Palestinian Catastrophe more generally, see Nakba." I'm wondering if it should be other way around. So that Nakba is first, and then expulsion and flight goes below that? Makkool (talk) 17:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Iostn: - Nakba is both used to refer to the 1948 events and also any post-1948 events which Arabs/Palestinians were persecuted by Israel - see Ongoing Nakba. starship.paint (RUN) 08:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:05, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Brașov has a metropolitan area population well over 400k, making it the fourth-largest city in Romania, and in the same boat as the other Romanian cities on the list, excluding Bucharest4 and Târgu Mureș5. I would propose a swap with the latter, but I'd weakly oppose the removal since we're 25 under quota in Cities. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 21:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Framing aside, we already have Mass killings under communist regimes5, which covers a lot of the same ground. For a more definite example, the decimation of Poland's leadership class in the Katyn Massacre was one of the most notorious war crimes by the Soviet Union.
Why do we have all 13 regions of a mid-sized country yet much more important regions of countries like the U.S. and Germany are excluded? Ohio5 and North Rhine-Westphalia5 aren’t even V4? The regions in question are:
Support removing these articles. I also support keeping Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia5. These 3 historical Czech regions have cultural significance unlike modern administrative regions. Gizza(talk) 01:20, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, propose replacing these small counties with the traditional regions of Transdanubia, the Great Hungarian Plain and possibly Northern Hungary. 2-3 regions is reasonable for a country of Hungary's size. Gizza(talk) 01:25, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I already proposed Transdanubia and its largest urban area below, and I will propose the other two soon. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 01:52, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aside from Hungarian counties which I have no reason to keep, we have no representation of the western half of Hungary, and this seems like a good place to start. Both articles are rated High-importance on WikiProject Hungary. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 21:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These both seem vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:01, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discussion
I want to clarify that while Szekes is only the ninth-largest city proper in Hungary, it has the fourth-largest urban area. The reverse is true for Szeged5; while being the third-largest city proper, it has the seventh-largest urban area. Miskolc might also be a good addition, having the fourth-largest city proper and the third-largest urban area. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 00:41, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A kingdom in Africa that was seemingly influential for centuries and existed for 1000 years. Rated High-Importance by WikiProject Nigeria and Top-Importance by WikiProject Igbo.
I think any region that is large, maintains a unique cultural heritage, and has made serious strides towards self-determination and self-governance should be listed at VA5. We do this for the most part (e.g. see Abkhazia4 or Somaliland4) but one omission I've noticed is with Kabylia within Algeria. Their people are Berbers4 so they have a distinct culture and language from the rest of Algeria. They have made serious pushes for self-government (see Berber Spring, Black Spring (Algeria) and Movement for the Self-Determination of Kabylie). The population of the region is 3.5 million which is over 15x the population of the aforementioned Abkhazia (and has more interwikis). In North Africa, we also list 28 governorates for Egypt but 0 subregions of Algeria, a country of 45 million. Aurangzebra (talk) 07:19, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Abkhazia and Somaliland are states with limited recognition, so they automatically get a pass at V4. We also need to completely overhaul the country subdivision list. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 12:50, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see no reason for one of the most important African country subdivisions to not be at least V5. It is notably one of the few subdivisions to be removed in the "Great Region Cull of 2013" and not be added to V5 later on. 72 interwikis, 781 dailies. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 00:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support
Strong support as nom. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 00:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It has by far the highest population (40m+) and GDP (~566b) of Russia's federal districts. Should most certainly be at V4. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support
Strong support as nom. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Major component of the Moscow metropolitan area with a population of ~8.5m and a GDP of $72 billion. Most certainly more vital than the vast majority of the republics. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Kuban is a culturally distinct region of Russia with a population of ~5.8m. and a GDP of $35 billion. Most certainly more vital than the vast majority of the republics. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A historically relevant region of Ukraine that only became more relevant during the Russo-Ukrainian War5. 3 of the 24 Ukrainian cities we list are located in the region and so was one-seventh of the pre-war population. I'd probably support this at V4. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Along with Transdanubia, which I proposed above, these are the three main regions of Hungary. GHP is rated High-importance in WP Hungary and most of its other WikiProjects. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk) 12:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Türkiye and Iran have comparable populations, but Iran gets over twice as many cities as Türkiye. Iran also has all but two of its provinces and Türkiye has NOTHING under country subdivisions? The geographical regions of Turkey are definitely all vital at this level. The articles in question are:
We should list some of the historical regions as well. Cappadocia definitely, as its still relevant today and a popular tourist destination. Place under Central Anatolia Region.
Support
As nom.Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]