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The result was delete.  Sandstein  20:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

United Planet[edit]

United Planet (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No evidence for encyclopedic notability (see Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)), no independent sources. Article has been tagged for notability since May 2007, for missing sources since August 2006. No hard facts such as the year of foundation, the number of members, funding sources, size of the budget...

I am also nominating the following related pages (now redirects to United Planet) because of the same concerns (no evidence for notability, no sources):

UP Ambassador Clubs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (previous versions: announcements of / advertising for projects of the organization)
UP Special Projects (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (previous versions: announcements of / advertising for projects of the organization)
VOE (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (previous versions just redirects/link only pages)
Cultural Awareness Project & UP Storytelling (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (previous versions: announcements of / advertising for projects of the organization)
Voices of Earth Cultural Exchange (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (previous version: about a web forum run by the organization)


Regards, High on a tree (talk) 23:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was merge and redirect to New Rave. The old revisions will be accessible in the page history, and any useable and well-sourced content can be merged into the more established and better-referenced article. MastCell Talk 16:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nu-rave[edit]

Nu-rave (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non notable subject, original research based on a single self published source neonwhite user page talk 23:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How are references in multiple web pages, a magazine and on a record releases (all independant) a single self published source. As Neon White knows nothing about this scene I question his ability to ask for the Nu-rave page to be deleted. User:Fluffski 16:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My knowledge of the so called 'scene' if such a thing exist is irrelevant, in fact uninvolved editors are in a far better position to make a judgement. The references are not verfiable according to policy, myspace pages are 'self published' as are most web sites. There is no citations from a magazine or any other fact checked publication to establish notability. --neonwhite user page talk 03:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is it possible to use material from the ATM or Knowledge articles as sources even if I can't directly link to them?--Ssp212 (talk) 20:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SPS can clarify. All sources are currently unreliable and unverifiable according to WP:V and the article makes no claims of notability. --neonwhite user page talk 02:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)
"Self-published source" doesn't mean content which we (the WP contributors) have published ourselves, but generally content where author = publisher, i.e. with no editorial control. See WP:SPS and self-publishing. Anybody can start a web site.
Magazine articles can be good sources for this sort of article -depending on what kind of magazine it is (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources); I think Kmag should be OK. But not every use of the word in such a source is suitable as evidence for notability - if it is just an ad-hoc expression a writer invented for a juicy headline, the quote would hardly prove that it is a widely used musical term.
Uploading magazine scans to Wikipedia is not possible since the magazine is probably not under a free copyright license. But you can quote short passages of text.
Regards, High on a tree (talk) 02:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If I quote from a magazine can I somehow use it as a reference even if I can't link to a copy?--Ssp212 (talk) 20:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I have added some notes on common musical elements.--Ssp212 (talk) 20:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My personal view is that redirecting to New Rave is the way to go as that article is sourced and clearly notable and uses nu rave as an alternative. This article just seems like original research to me and at best the term is very rare neologism as opposed to the more notable use. --neonwhite user page talk 03:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The New Rave described in wiki is an entirely different scene relating to indie guitar bands rather than Rave music. I agree that the article requires improvement and hopefully additional references will be added in time but to delete the page would be wrong as the Nu-rave scene exists and is growing even if its not currently well documented. User:Fluffski 12:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


"even if its not currently well documented" - which is exactly the main criteria for notability and why this may not be notable enough for an article. --neonwhite user page talk 13:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have added a quote from a printed magazine article about Nu-Rave being played at large well known rave events. Does this help to establish it's notability?--Ssp212 (talk) 20:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Delete --JForget 01:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How to Make a Chocolate Souffle[edit]

How to Make a Chocolate Souffle (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Wikipedia is not a cookbook. Likely this is a copyrighted recipe, anyway. Corvus cornixtalk 22:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Keep (non-admin closure), because notability has been confirmed. Ecoleetage (talk) 00:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wirt H. Wills[edit]

Wirt H. Wills (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non notable. ...... Dendodge .. TalkHelp 22:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete.  Sandstein  21:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bsfmovie[edit]

Bsfmovie (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Per WP:NFF. Hasn't even begun filming yet; no references whatsoever. Ghits -- website, MySpace, this article. nneonneo talk 22:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was merge and redirect to MPQ. Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

.DBC[edit]

.DBC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Bringing to AFD soley becuase of a PROD that was effectively challenged a couple years ago. Agreed with the original PROD reasoning: "An obcsure file format nested within another obscure file format" No notability, and gods help us if we write sub-stubs for every random three letter combination various games and programs use for their file types. Resolute 22:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Delete --JForget 01:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rapture's End[edit]

Rapture's End (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Sci-fi novel by an author without an article. Google brings up no relevant ghits for either the title or the author. Strongly suspect this book is self-published or through a vanity press, if it exists at all. Copyright status for image of book cover claims that it was uploaded by the copyright holder, so it may be self-promotion. — Gwalla | Talk 22:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oy, confusion -- one's now a redirect. Got it. Ne-ver-mind. —Quasirandom (talk) 02:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Delete --JForget 01:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dianetics: The Original Thesis[edit]

Dianetics: The Original Thesis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I searched through multiple database archives in an attempt to find secondary WP:RS/WP:V sources that either discuss or review "Dianetics: The Original Thesis" or "The Dynamics of Life" in any depth, but could not find any. Zero results in a search of three different database archives of newspaper articles. Zero results in an archival index of book reviews in InfoTrac. There were a few results in other books, but these were either in passing only and no discussion in any sort of depth, or simply a listing of related works published by the Church of Scientology. The only secondary WP:RS/WP:V source I could find that discussed the book at all was The New Religious Movements Experience in America by Eugene V. Gallagher, who acknowledges that the work was a "privately circulated paper", a prelude to Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. But since it is quite unlikely that individuals will be searching for "Dianetics: The Original Thesis", there is no need to merge anything to that article (nothing to merge really, as the only source cited in the article at present is to a primary source affiliated with the publisher) - I see no need to merge to that article, but rather recommend deletion. Cirt (talk) 22:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Delete --JForget 01:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arctic Monkeys' third studio album[edit]

Arctic Monkeys' third studio album (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

A balatant WP:CRYSTAL violation; not even planned for '08 release - goodness knows when, if ever Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 21:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete.  Sandstein  21:06, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Settra[edit]

Settra (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Nonnotable fictional character. May even be a copyvio, as the text reads a bit like the Games Workshop style. Graevemoore (talk) 21:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete. Pigman 05:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti[edit]

Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non notable organization with very questionable sources. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Please feel free to add any reliable sources you find to the article. I have not been able to find any. Please share any information you find to establish notablity aside from Google searches. Google searches do not establish notability, and are not reliable sources. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 04:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a matter of principle I generally don't edit the article that is the subject of an ongoing AfD. I didn't say google searches established notability or was a reliable source. I said doing a search uncovered some sources that for me established notability. Any editor can do the same and see what they think. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Delete --JForget 01:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Caitlin Forsyth[edit]

Caitlin Forsyth (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This person may be a talented teenager but they do not appear to have received the significant coverage by reliable sources independent of the subject required to establish notability and verify the content of the article. Guest9999 (talk) 21:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was keep.  Sandstein  21:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hypomenorrhea[edit]

Hypomenorrhea (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Delete contested prod; one editor thought that this article, a duplicate of wiktionary's definition, is appropriate for the encyclopedia, despite WP:NOT#DICTIONARY. It's a dictionary entry, it gets deleted. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 21:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As my delete above says if the article is expanded than I'm happy to change from delete to keep. Giving you the opportunity to expand the article and take part in this discussion was reason I made sure you were notified in the first place. Personally, I don't want to set a precedent for one-line dictionary definitions to be kept because they MAY be expanded. If they ARE going to be expanded in the near future by those that know more about the subject or contributed the original article though that is a different story and a different precedent. Jasynnash2 (talk) 15:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I think if we expected every article to come to life as a fully written, mature article, this encyclopedia would be a very poor resource indeed. Certainly this is not a high-quality article at this point, but it is valid and useful...way more so than any number of deletion candidates that survive, I might add...  Frank  |  talk  02:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Please note I never said articles had to be fully written and/or mature when they came into existence. I said that I didn't want to see MAY be expanded to become the norm around here. I'll gladly discuss the subject in general at my talk page. Jasynnash2 (talk) 08:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. It is the norm already. It is called a STUB. --Itub (talk) 08:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment So Dictdefs are stubs and stubs are allowed so dictdefs of notable things are therefore allowed? Again if that is the norm it shouldn't be. Creating a one-line article and leaving it to sit should not be encouraged. Heck at least my sloppy rewrite makes the article less dictionary and hopefully a bit more useful. Jasynnash2 (talk) 09:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Should it be a redirect to Oligomenorrhea in the same way that Hypermenorrhea redirects to Menorrhagia? Jasynnash2 (talk) 12:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I think we should find references to answer that question before instituting such a redirect. I am not a medical expert, but as I understand it, hypomenorrhea is simply low flow. Oligomenorrhea is a pattern of same over time. (I actually think the same relationship exists with hypermenorrhea and menorrhagia, which might make the redirect inappropriate there too.) To give an analogy, if you have a seizure, it's a seizure, but if you have a number of them over time, it may be diagnosed as epilepsy (and it may not). Nevertheless, you've still had a seizure and you wouldn't necessarily want to read an article on epilepsy the first time someone tells you you've had a seizure.  Frank  |  talk  12:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Agree with User:Frank. Maybe Bryan Hopping can help as the creator of the article? Or someone else who has commented previously can help. Either way for seems to be a snowball keep as only 3 people have said delete and I've since corrected the article from the original dictdef that it was nominated as. Jasynnash2 (talk) 13:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - thanks - that's what I would have said if I knew what I was talking about. Care to comment on hypermenorrhea, which currently redirects to menorrhagia?  Frank  |  talk  12:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Speedy Keep as redirect. No need to debate for five days over what has been shown to be a plausible typo. Non-admin closure. Itub (talk) 08:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indoxicarb[edit]

Indoxicarb (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Delete nn pesticide; only 246 ghits. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 21:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Changing to Redirect to Indoxacarb, per comments below. Seems to be a plausible misspelling. Nsk92 (talk) 02:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Daniel (talk) 02:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Goswami[edit]

Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Goswami (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non notable who represents a non notable institution, Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mission, that has been deleted as not notable. Sources are questionable. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Google searches do not establish notablity, nor do the number of results establish reliable sources. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 04:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I didn't say they did. I said the sources found through a google search demonstrated notability to me. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:33, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete. Apparently a copyvio, see [8], where the only substantial contributor also requests the deletion of the article. Redirected to Khmer sculpture.  Sandstein  20:50, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ancient Khmer sculpture[edit]

Ancient Khmer sculpture (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

doubled, there is a same article already so please delete today Liguria (talk) 20:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment. To be clear, I'd also be open to a merge per Ten Pound Hammer, but not if Khmer sculpture remains in its current form. AnturiaethwrTalk 21:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was No consensus to delete. There was no support for totally removing this material. Even the Delete voters implied that the material should find a home in one of the articles of the parent drugs. If coverage does move elsewhere thanks to the normal editorial process, the name Chlorpheniramine and phenylpropanolamine could become a redirect to whatever article section the material ends up in. EdJohnston (talk) 02:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Chlorpheniramine and phenylpropanolamine[edit]

Chlorpheniramine and phenylpropanolamine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This drug combination doesn't warrant its own page. It should be included in the chlorpheniramine article. See Butalbital for an example of a good list of drug combinations centralized on one page. See also Paracetamol/metoclopramide for a similar, but more notable, article about a drug combo (which also recently survived Afd). Fuzzform (talk) 20:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, this article is what I'd call a "permanent stub". It contains all the information it will ever contain, so it's logical to move it somewhere else (and perhaps provide redirects for the brandnames listed). Fuzzform (talk) 20:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete, based on consensus and because the article's WP:OR issues are not addressed in any depth here.  Sandstein  20:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Derelict (Alien)[edit]

Derelict (Alien) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The article fails WP:N in that it is about a fictional spaceship that only appears in 1 film (Alien, not counting a deleted scene in Aliens in which it also appears). In any case there is no secondary source material provided to support commentary about the subject as required by WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:RS. Its only substantial reference for most of its content is the film itself, and most of the article is blatant original research with much of it written from an in-universe perspective. All the pertinent information about the ship's concept & design is already included in Alien (film) (and Aliens (film) to a lesser extent) using real-world context in relation to the making of the film. Redirection is unnecessary as few articles link to it, and those that do mostly do so only through a template (Template:Alien) so they would be easy to remove. --IllaZilla (talk) 19:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment:I don't believe those subjects are discussable in the encyclopedia, as they don't appear to be discussed in secondary source material. What you're suggesting is basically fan synthesis, fanfiction, and a lot of in-universe stuff which is pretty much what we're trying to avoid by deleting this article. My interpretation of WP:FICT leads to the conclusion that the stuff you're suggesting probably isn't sourceable to reliable third-party sources, and is the kind of content that WP:FICT is designed to restrict/fix rather than expand. --IllaZilla (talk) 21:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OR is not limited only to articles which advance a thesis. Per the policy: "This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." Note the and, meaning that OR is not just stuff that advances a position but includes any speculation or ideas that are previously unpublished. Read the article, it is full of this kind of stuff. For example it outright states "The origin of the Derelict and its inhabitant, the Space Jockey, is not depicted and virtually nothing is ever said about either throughout the entire Alien series." Yet it goes on to make theories about it being a bioship, its fictional origins, structure, fate after the films, etc. The only verifiable section, "concept and design", contains only information already presented in Alien (film) and is not sufficient to support an independent article as it amounts to only 2 shorrt paragraphs and does not include any references to secondary sources. --IllaZilla (talk) 05:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would think checking through back issues of such magazines as Starlog (I actually recall reading one several years back that had information on the Derelict from Alien), which might take longer than a five day AfD (but we have no deadline, so there's no rush or urgency to delete anyway) would turn up stuff. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 05:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Delete --JForget 01:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled Upcoming Album[edit]

Untitled Upcoming Album (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Contested PROD. This is an article about an album that is yet to be released. Although by a group that is apparently notable, this article fails WP:MUSIC and WP:CRYSTAL, particularly as the title is not yet known. There is no reason to have this article until the album has been released and the title is known Fritzpoll (talk) 19:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was speedy delete WP:CSD#G7 (one author who has requested deletion) per Musimax's reply to Shawn in Montreal. —David Eppstein (talk) 15:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of former logos used by Mpix[edit]

List of former logos used by Mpix (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

WP is not a image gallery, and this fork is only used to facilitate the usage of non-free content. ViperSnake151 19:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

As a note, the images were not included in the Mpix article first, they were added by the AfD nominator after I made my comment on how it would look. Taking a look at it now, it doesn't look so bad and I would be fine with the article being deleted. musimax. (talk) 15:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was merge/redirect to SkyTran. Useful and well-sourced content can be merged from the page history into the SkyTran article. MastCell Talk 16:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

UniModal[edit]

UniModal (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Originally considered here, but then speedily deleted a couple of years later before winding up at deletion review, see here. Relisted here. Please consider the material presented in the DRV before commenting. Myself, abstain. Splash - tk 19:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, there is a lot of information there that needs to be merged into SkyTran, since the Unimodal article is really about SkyTran. The fact that Unimodal is only mentioned in the intro is a reason to merge, not a reason to delete. Fresheneesz (talk) 20:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't "need" to be merged. It can be rewritten into the SkyTran article from the original sources. Merging in this case is really overkill. -- Kesh (talk) 21:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. In fact, if the consensus is to delete, I would ask if the page can be made available (temporarily userfy to me?) and I will happily do the content merge manually Fritzpoll (talk) 21:55, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to nitpick over that, but I don't see why a merge (for history's sake) is more overkill than copy and paste merging.. Fresheneesz (talk) 06:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I thought you deleted UniModal. Stephen B Streater (talk) 09:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, my mistake! You're right; I corrected above. JDoorjam JDiscourse 05:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Unimodal already redirects to Unimodal function. UniModal has a capital M, so that can redirect to SkyTran without affecting the Unimodal redirect. ATren (talk) 00:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Avidor is a single purpose account. He has been here more than two years, his edits are exclusively on the articles related to PRT and its supporters. He is associated with the lightrailnow.org website, a pro-rail website underwritten by rail construction interests - of course, rail construction would be directly threatened by proliferation of PRT. Avidor has also maintained an extensive anti-PRT website for over 5 years now, and has called PRT a "fraud", a "hoax", a "scam" and a "flim flam" hundreds (thousands?) of times in forums across the Internet (frequently using multiple aliases to do so), though he has never presented a single piece of evidence to substantiate these claims.
Disclaimer: I know all this because I watch his anti-PRT writings, and debunk his statements on my blog. There is also another blog which does the same. ATren (talk) 15:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To answer the question, UniModal is awaiting funding to proceed, so it is very likely that they are in hibernation mode and do not maintain an office. This is not unusual for startups. ATren (talk) 15:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
ATren, please be civil. You just spent a paragraph attacking his character before spending a sentence agreeing with his findings. Let's keep this about the article and about Wikipedia, not about conflicts between personalities elsewhere on the internet. JDoorjam JDiscourse 05:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I responded on your talk. In short, it is not uncivil to point out when an editor returns from a 9 month break to vote in a deletion debate, especially when that editor has only ever edited articles dealing with the topic of the deletion. Also, I can't see how stating verifiable fact can be construed as an attack on character. See your talk page for details (including evidence to back all my statements). ATren (talk) 05:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. . A merger can be discussed on the talk page.  Sandstein  21:20, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Prehen House[edit]

Prehen House (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced article stub on a house in Northern Ireland that is rather old, but for which there is no indication of notability. --Finngall talk 19:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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Soroush Nazarpour[edit]

The result was delete. The actual discussion has been hidden from view but can still be accessed by following the "history" link at the top of the page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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The result was Delete. EdJohnston (talk) 02:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Differences between Thai, Lao and Isan[edit]

Differences between Thai, Lao and Isan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Contested prod. Unencyclopedic list comparing various words and phrases in three languages. Do we need WP:NOT#LANGUAGEREFERENCE? --Finngall talk 19:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nintala (talk) 18:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)Keep, it is important to point out that Isan is a language similar to Lao by having a list of words. The section on Quebec French lexicon is no different. Also, this is the closest one will get to Lao vocabulary, as the Lao alphabet is not really supported by Unicode. As Ksero has said, it can be expanded. I have been building it up slowly.[reply]

  • Comment - I think this point is exactly the reason the article should be deleted: Wikipedia is not a vocabulary list. If the similarity is worth pointing out, it can be done at any (or all) of the appropriate language pages. I would also say that these lists of other stuff are both a poor reason to keep this article, and good continuation list for investigation for further pruning. (Having said that, the Quebec French lexicon article is far more encyclopedic than this one.)  Frank  |  talk  18:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Delete -Selket Talk 22:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of Nintendo Power Covers[edit]

List of Nintendo Power Covers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Contested prod of an unencyclopedic list. --Finngall talk 18:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My sentiments exactly! Nsk92 (talk) 17:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete.  Sandstein  21:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Adish[edit]

Adish (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The article is a dictionary definition for a Persian, Hindi, and "African" word. All references appear to substantiate the fact that the word is used as a name. Google hits provide no information from which an article on a notable topic could be found, nor do I see any potential for expansion beyond just the dictionary definition. A common name used by several notable individuals might work as a disambiguation page (as with Hashim (name)), but this article as it stands doesn't work. My rationale for deletion, then, would be that the subject is unencyclopedic, and reliable sources cannot be found to document the notability of the subject beyond its existance. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 18:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Keep - (non-admin) Peripitus (Talk) 05:11, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Team Valor[edit]

Team Valor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Delete racing team that puts together partnerships to race thoroughbreds, no indication that this busines is notable; fails WP:CORP. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Redirect to School District 38 Richmond. There are quite few school articles in this district like this, given apparent consensus, they can be boldly redirected and merged as well as necessary. Camaron | Chris (talk) 17:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hamilton Elementary School[edit]

Hamilton Elementary School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Delete nothing to distinguish this elementary school from the millions of others out there WP:NOT#DIRECTORY of nn schools. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Keep (non-admin closure), because notability has been confirmed. Ecoleetage (talk) 00:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anurag Kumar[edit]

Anurag Kumar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable person. There was a previous AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anurag kumar from october of 2006 with a no consensus keep, but nothing has been done to this article in the meantime to show that the professor is anything more than a run-of-the-mill professor doing his job. Corvus cornixtalk 18:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Add to this nomination, his non-notable novel, Recalcitrance (novel). Corvus cornixtalk 18:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The novel should be listed under a separate AfD. The issues of Kurmar's academic notability and notability of his novel are very different and should be discussed separately. Nsk92 (talk) 19:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a link verifying him being an IEEE fellow to the article. Nsk92 (talk) 19:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have added a link[20] confirming that he is a Fellow of INAE to the article. I tried to look up the list of fellows at the INSA website[21], but the website is malfunctioning for the moment and could not be searched. Still, there is little doubt that the info about being an INSA Fellow listed in his bio-sketch at[22] is actually correct. Nsk92 (talk) 20:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, the INSA website is working fine now. I have added a link[23] confirming that he is an elected Fellow of INSA to the main article. Nsk92 (talk) 11:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear People you do not realize that Anurag Kumar Prof. and Anurag Kumar are two separate people one a scientist and another an author. So whay are you confusing both to them . Recalcitrance novel has just come out and is on sale on ebay. It is not on sale on Amazon just now because amazon requires books to be based in Europe or USA and the novel is as yet in India only. Whay the long discussison. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aipbookslko (talkcontribs) 07:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to Disco Inferno (band). Fabrictramp (talk) 00:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Second Language (ep)[edit]

Second Language (ep) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Per WP:MUSIC, no charting of this album and content limited to little more than a track listing. Delete and merge salvageable contents to Disco Inferno (band). - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 17:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Merge and Redirect to Schadenfreude. Having two articles on effectively the same subject is content forking; the normal English word is clearly schadenfreude and there does not appear to be any difference between the meanings. Therefore a mention of this word in the article Schadenfreude is reasonable and sufficient. Some information is already there; editors may wish to add more, although respecting the fact that this should always be a minor section (in the manner of WP:WEIGHT). Black Kite 11:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Epicaricacy[edit]

Epicaricacy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)
  • CommentHow exactly do you define consensus? Three users in a one-day period? This nomination flies in the face of reason or trying to build "consensus." --evrik (talk) 19:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentThe point of this nomination is to try to reach out to a wider group for consensus. I agree that three users commenting on a very obscure article is a very small sample of consensus, but I also think it is significant discussion that was conducted in good faith and with people explaining their opinions and citing Wikipedia policy to back them up. For example, as Grafen said, " From WP:NAD in relation to Wikipedia: "Articles whose titles are different words for the same thing, or different spellings for the same word, are duplicate articles that should be merged. For examples: petrol and gasoline; colour and color." And by contrast in relation to Wiktionary: "Different words warrant different articles (e.g. petrol and gasoline)." betsythedevine (talk) 20:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Really, I don't think this is the correct forum for this. If you had wanted to bring in other comments, there are other forums for that. This nomination kinda smells to me. --evrik (talk) 21:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are 4 editors (including me) that supported the redirect. For an unnoticed topic such as this, this is pretty clear consensus. The "usage" section does not show any usage; this is obvious to anyone. The only two sources you could find for the word "epicaricacy" seem to be collections of rare and obscure words, some of which it is doubtful they are even words. Standard dictionaries such as the OED make no mention of it. The reason you seem to have created this article is because you originally thought schadenfreude was not an English word and you thought epicaricacy was the English equivalent. The evidence is clear that you are wrong, but since you refuse to admit it, we are here. --C S (talk) 03:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking of consensus, why did you reverse my redirect when you had not managed to drum up any support? Even if you are correct in asserting consensus was minimal for the redirect, clearly you had no support at all. --C S (talk) 03:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Three editors in one day was a little premature, wasn't it? --evrik (talk) 14:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Again, three users commented in a one-day period, that's significant discussion on the talk page? No, if it were to be redirected (and I am not saying it should be) it should be reverted to this entry where it was a soft redirect to wiktionary. --evrik (talk) 19:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the article is to be made into a redirect, then it should be done in the same way in which it was done earlier. Deletion would only hinder that process. "Articles for deletion" is not "Articles for redirection." AnturiaethwrTalk 03:46, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • (response to Ike9898's comment) I don't think anyone has claimed that "epicaricacy" means something different from "Schadenfreude." Evrik's argument for changing multiple links that used to go to Schadenfreude so that now they go instead to the new article he created for epicaricacy ([24] [25] [26] and more) seems to be that epicaricacy is better than Schadenfreude because it is an English word, not a German loan-word. [27]. See also the discussion of this on Evrik's talk page [28]. betsythedevine (talk) 22:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • How is that relevant? What does this have to do with your nomination? Are you saying you nominated it because I started replacing the usage of the word schadenfreude? What does the usage of the word have to do with whether or not the article should exist? Again, your nomination of the article for deletion, rather than working it out on the talk page, is suspect. If what you wanted to do was start a discussion, then you should withdraw this nomination for deletion and have a discussion. --evrik (talk) 22:39, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The remarks you object to were relevant to the comment I was replying to, not to the original AfD. May I also remind you of WP:AGF and WP:NPA. I have no wish to withdraw this AfD because I believe the article should be deleted and replaced by a redirect to Schadenfreude, which talks about the same complex of emotions. It should not be replaced by a re-direct to this word in Wiktionary, because people who search Wikipedia are looking for information about things, not for etymological discussion of obscure words. betsythedevine (talk) 23:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • May I also remind you of WP:AGF and WP:NPA. --evrik (talk) 14:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here's one difference: schadenfreude was not a term or concept used by Aristotle, epicaricacy was. --evrik (talk) 22:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • As far as I can tell, these two words are synonyms. Thus, if "epicaricacy" was used by Aristotle, "Schadenfreude" was too; it becomes a case of competing translations. Is there a distinction between the two concepts? If so, what is it? AnturiaethwrTalk 00:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Competing translations? That's somewhat nonsensical. This isn't about a dictionary definition. This is about an encyclopedic entry. Yes, the words are synonyms. Yet... they have different roots and different histories. Epicaricacy does some directly from. Aristotle was a Greek, and his concept, and the Greek root word predated the German concept by more than a millennium. There's enough here for an encyclopedic entry. What it needs is time to grow. --evrik (talk) 02:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • How the words themselves are distinct from one another is immaterial unless the respective articles are about the words, rather than the concept; this would violate WP:DICDEF unless the words qua words (i.e. divorced from their referents) were notable, and I don't see any claim that this is the case. Therefore, I reiterate: what is the distinction between the psychological state denoted by "epicaricacy" and that denoted by "Schadenfreude"? (Since you say that the two words are synonyms, as I had surmised, I take it that there is none; do I understand you correctly?) AnturiaethwrTalk 03:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • True, the article is now much better than it was, and in fact covers the subject in better detail than Schadenfreude does (though it's still marginal); thus, a merge would improve Schadenfreude. AnturiaethwrTalk 16:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that Evrik has written up some excellent historical material about the Greek word for schadenfreude as evidence of historical interest in the emotion described. Considering that people are unlikely to search for the rare word "epicaricacy" but likely to search for the common term "schadenfreude", I would like to see this material added to the schadenfreude article where it can benefit Wikipedia users. Without removing any of it from epicaricacy, I did add the parts I thought were valuable to schadenfreude as well as more information about its usage and scientific research concerning it. betsythedevine (talk) 17:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I appreciate the compliment, I removed those additions as they are more appropriate for the "E" article and not the "S" article. If for some reason this article doesn't pass the AfD, well then, by all means use it. --evrik (talk) 17:55, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please stop what you're doing in the schadenfreude article. You are blatantly copying the work I've done in an effort to strengthen the "S" article. Reallly, at least have the decency to do your own research. --evrik (talk) 18:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps the article should be named differently, but that is not what an AfD is for. Looking at the article as it stands now it has context and history. There is no reason why an article about an emotion, described by a word with Greek roots, should be shoe-horned into an article about a German word.
Finally about process. What the hell is wrong with Betsythedevine? Many times when articles are nominated for AfD, the people who have worked on the article start working to improve the quality of the article and its relevance. Betsy is not only attacking people for doing so, but is herself going around and ,making snide comments as she is doing so. She is not a novice user, so her comments about placing it in AfD to get consensus are hogwash. Sur de Filadelfia (talk) 18:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:NPA? I never claimed that my only goal in creating an AfD was "consensus." My edit summaries are meant to be informative, not snide. I did not "attack" Evrik for improving the article, I praised his efforts. I did not attack him for improving its "relevance" but I voiced concern that his adding a pile of new links to the article could muddy the issue of its real importance. Your angry and inaccurate accusations are much more in violation of the spirit of Wikipedia than my attempts to make it better by preventing a fork and the siphoning of users away from a real article about a real word schadenfreude (granted that article could use improvement) by shipping them off to admire a brand-new article about an inkhorn term whose defenders can't cite even one non-dictionary source of its use in English to describe the emotion everyone calls "schadenfreude." If you want to make a formal complaint about my behavior, I'm sure any admin can help you to figure out how. This section is not the appropriate place for personal attacks on your fellow editors. betsythedevine (talk) 20:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Since your first edit was apparently only a few weeks ago, perhaps you're not in the best position to lecture people on how things are done around here. Unless, of course, you're not as novice as you seem. Deor (talk) 18:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The argument for deletion is not that the article is a WP:DICDEF. Rather, it is that this is an unnecessary content fork of Schadenfreude. No one has yet asserted that epicaricacy is not, in fact, Schadenfreude. Therefore, a merge is in order. The resulting article should be called "Schadenfreude," because that is a word in common parlance, while it is a subject of debate whether "epicaricacy" is a word at all (hence the references to the OED); if it is a word, it is extraordinarily rare. It is unfortunate that the existing Schadenfreude article is largely about the word, rather than about the concept; however, that's all the more reason to merge useful information into it. AnturiaethwrTalk 19:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Anturiaethwr, epicaricacy is not, in fact, schadenfreude. If anything, it is the other way around. How's that? --evrik (talk) 19:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nonsense. If Schadenfreude is epicaricacy, then epicaricacy is Schadenfreude. The two terms both refer to a state of joy at another's misfortune; you even admit above that they're synonyms. If you draw a distinction between the two, please tell me what it is. I'll be more than willing to change my recommendation. AnturiaethwrTalk 19:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay ...
  1. Aristotle cited Greek equivalent of epicaricacy as part of his classifaction of virtues and emotions.
  2. schadenfreude derives from the Middle High German schade and vreude
The greek term was used by English writers as far back as 1261, which coincedentally was the same time as the usage of Middle High German. The terms are independent of each other in their development, history and usage. It is appropriate to have the articles link between each other, but they should remain separate. A good example of this is Zeus, Jupiter and Tinia. I could cite other examples. --evrik (talk) 19:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • That establishes a difference between the terms (which was never in dispute), not between the concepts to which they refer. Zeus, Jupiter, and Tinia have different articles because they are deities from different cultures (i.e. Zeus is a Greek god, and neither Roman nor Etruscan; Jupiter a Roman god, and neither Greek nor Etruscan; and Tinia an Etruscan god, and neither Roman nor Greek); their equivalence and similarities do not enter into the equation. I have yet to see a difference between epicaricacy ("a human psychological response that entails the rejoicing at, taking joy in, or getting pleasure from the misfortunes of others") and Schadenfreude ("enjoyment taken from the misfortune of someone else"). (These definitions leave either as a plausible translation of the original Greek word; that's what I meant by my "competing translations" comment above.) The difference in etymology is not at all relevant, unless the article is about the term, rather than about the concept. The article as it stands is about the concept, rather than the term (i.e. it does not fail WP:DICDEF); therefore, etymology is immaterial in this discussion. AnturiaethwrTalk 19:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
* Comment Schadenfreude is currently under copyright investigation only because it was placed there by Sur de Filadelfia who wants this debate to resolve to "keep." I admire Evrik's work to make the article epicaricacy better. Efforts to improve the status of epicaricacy by attacking the status of schadenfreude do not seem to me to be good Wikipedia practice. betsythedevine (talk) 16:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
* Comment I see the copyright has been removed, but I still retain a "keep" vote. I believe they etymology, historical and literary differences make them enough of a difference to warrant their own entries. The goal should be increasing the breadth of information, not narrowing. As long as both articles retain entries mentioning each other to allow the reader to progress, it works for me. Raider.adam (talk) 18:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment A lot of Keep votes seem to be coming in from Philadelphia. There is Evrik, plus Sur_de_Filadelphia, Marketstel, Raider.adam, and now Eagleapex, all showing up to favor of keeping this article, all with Philadelphia material prominent in their user pages or contributions. Yet among other commenters, the great majority has a different opinion. I'm also concerned that so many new arrivals have a mistaken idea about what is being discussed here. Nobody is claiming or has claimed that the epicaricacy article is just a dictionary definition. The point of the WP:NAD is something else entirely; that words with the same meaning get separate articles in a dictionary but not in an encyclopedia. Aristotle did not use the word "epicaricacy', he used the Greek word from which it is derived. Schadenfreude is not "a German word", it is a word of German origin now commonly used by many educated speakers of English and by the news media. Increasing the breadth of information in Wikipedia can be achieved by creating a single article that contains all our information about the emotion described, including an informative discussion of the inkhorn term "epicaricacy." betsythedevine (talk) 22:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As I see it, with all due respect to the persons that are usually good contributors, there is a cabal because someone became infatuated in good faith, hopefully, with an idea that is blatantly false for those who are familiar with the concept and thing called schadenfreude. The idea is to replace the use in Wikipedia of the German word Schadenfreude by the use of the English word epicaricacy. It seems that rational argument are of no avail in this affair. That's why I voted in favor of deleting the entry Epicaricacy (or redirect or merge, but never let it go as a POV fork!). First, it is such a rare synonym of a 'current' English word that epicaricay is not worth an article by itself, and though it would not be an entry by itself, it would figure within the article Schadenfreude and thus could still be found in WP by a 'Search' rather than a 'Go' in the main search box. Second, a deletion would nip the cabal in the bud: otherwise, we might have to come back again and again for discussing a redirect or a merge or a split. Deleted article are a lot harder to recreate. Countering a cabal is not an argument for deletion, but since we are in the irrational... All this is really futile in some regards, but in some others what is at stake is the games people play. We all play games that are important for us, but at times we are all called to transcend our cherished games for the sake of our greater collective progress. So, please ladies and gentlemen, let's resolve this matter 'intrinsically', to the best of our knowledge. --Robert Daoust (talk) 00:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Just a note to mention that I've filed a suspected sockpuppetry report involving Sur de Filadelfia here. Oh, and Lblanchard is a Philadelphia user that you forgot to mention. Deor (talk) 02:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Schadenfreude" used to be a pretty obscure word, but it has gained a lot of popularity over just the past decade. Ben Affleck and Lisa Simpson use the word "schadenfreude." Not even the OED includes "epicaricacy." So I do see a difference between the inhorn status of the two words. betsythedevine (talk) 10:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note. Sur de Filadelfia has been blocked as a sockpuppet of the indef-blocked user South Philly. I've therefore stricken out his contributions to this discussion. Deor (talk) 18:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On page 42 of his book, which significantly never mentions the extremely rare word epicaricacy, we can read:

Aristotle ties pleasure in the misfortune of others to spite (he specifically decries Schadenfreude, N.E. 2.6.18).

It must be said, though, that Portmann in his book always uses schadenfreude as a German word, that is to say capitalized and italicized. Then, the word that appears in English since the nineteenth century was not fully naturalized yet in 1999. Perhaps this is another reason why Evrik and others are still trying to replace it (1,5 million Google results) with the supposedly more English word epicaricacy (7 tousands Google results). However, since 1999 an important trend has gained momentum. Robert Matuozzi was expressing this trend in his 2001 review of Portmann's book:

A pervasive social and psychological feature of modern times, Schadenfreude has recently migrated from the German language to American popular culture, with the word and the dynamic occasionally cropping up in movies and music, folklore, and to a lesser extent in newspapers and magazines, either explicitly or in cleverly contrived subtexts.

--Robert Daoust (talk) 18:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, if you look closely, you'll see that "epicaricacy" gets only 311 or so unique Google results. Deor (talk) 18:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of comments

  • Keep - 10
  • Delete - 5
  • Merge (or redirect) - 3

-Sur de Filadelfia (talkcontribs) 01:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Just a note that if we are "counting," at least 6 of those 10 "keep" votes seem to come from Philadelphia. betsythedevine (talk) 11:52, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just a note that the above comment is completely irrelevant. Unless sockpuppetry is proven, we don't discriminate based upon people's geographic locations. Johntex\talk 16:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, well here is one that you will then agree should be taken of the list of "votes:" User:Sur_de_Filadelfia, who created this list, has been banned as a proven sock of banned user South Philly. There was also (in Dec. 2007) a Checkuser called to see if SouthPhilly might be a sockpuppet of Evrik, since both were involved in vote-stacking the same AfDs. betsythedevine (talk) 22:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why I mention the Philadelphia connection: Wikipedia policy "It is considered highly inappropriate to advertise Wikipedia articles to your friends, family members, or communities of people who agree with you, so that they come to Wikipedia and support your side of a debate. If you feel that a debate is ignoring your voice, then the appropriate action is to avoid personal attacks, seek comments and involvement from other Wikipedians, or pursue dispute resolution. These are well-tested processes, designed to avoid the problem of exchanging bias in one direction for bias in another." betsythedevine (talk) 10:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Betsy for bringing this to everyone's attention; however, I don't think it's too helpful to belabor this. While the sudden influx of Philedelphia related editors is worrisome, it doesn't necessarily indicate canvassing by Evrik. After all, editors that know him may simply have been alerted by the activity in his user talk page and decided to take a look at epicaricacy. What is more to the point is that all these supporters have failed to address the pertinent point: epicaricacy is not a real word. They have yet to demonstrate a single use of the word. The lack of usage is damning as far as epicaricacy's status as a word of the English language is concerned. As has been pointed out several times before, the usage demonstrated in the article is limited to usage of different transciptions (not "epicaricacy") of a Greek word. Saying "it's encyclopedic" or "this is a useful concept with its own history" (the main arguments of the supporters) do not address this. I don't see how essentially making up a word to describe the same concept as schadenfreude and then writing about the supposed etymology of the fake word is encyclopedic; I also don't see how using a different word to describe the same thing creates a different concept and thus a different article.
If I was one to make a [[WP:POINT|point], I would go find some word in Icelandic synonymous with a well-known loan word from Japanese (like say, "honcho"), make up a transcription of it into English characters, then create a page on it with a "usage" section based on different transciptions of the Icelandic word, then replace all references to "honcho" with this other word claiming "honcho" is not an English word. Then when it is pointed out that "honcho" is indeed English while my word is obscure, I will then respond that "honcho" is Japanese and if that doesn't work, that my word should be kept since its etymology is Icelandic not Japanese, thus Wikipedia should have the valuable historical information about this English word of Icelandic origin separate from the Japanese origin. Then I will include quotes from ancient writings using the Icelandic word and claim this creates a different concept since clearly it predated the use of "honcho". That would bring us to the same ridiculous point we are at now. --C S (talk) 11:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There certainly was canvassing going on here - that was how I came to be involved in this discussion and I am certain that this was the case with the other Philly users. Until reading the comment above, I was not aware of the canvassing guideline, but it makes sense. That said, I feel I was a neutral participant in this discussion and I stand by the opinions I've expressed. ike9898 (talk) 13:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Ike9898, there was canvassing going on here by Evrik. I was the recipient of a notification about this AfD and in the past a few others, asking for participation. --ImmortalGoddezz (t/c) 14:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Anturaethwr, thank you so much for your helpful explanation, which I just found on your talk page. If I had known about the page for inviting participation in a potentially controversial merger Wikipedia:Proposed_mergers, that would have met all my goals for what I wanted to do when I originally filed an AfD. If the experienced Wikipedian Evrik had directed my attention to that page instead of assuming I must know all about it and denouncing my bad faith, much later heat and unhappiness could have been short-circuited. I will withdraw my AfD as soon as I figure out how to replace it with a Merge and Redirect. Maybe that can bring consensus and civility to what has become a much-too-angry discussion. Once again, thank you so much for your civility and helpfulness. betsythedevine (talk) 08:18, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note. Have stricken out the !vote of English Subtitleself-admitted South Philly sock. Deor (talk) 23:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Betsy said, "The point of this nomination is to try to reach out to a wider group for consensus." I too got a message from Evrik, the text follows:

Can you take a look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicaricacy

Am I really off base on the encyclopedic content of this article? It seems to me that the biggest reason that it got AfD'ed was because it flies in the face of the idea that there is no word in English for what the Germans call "schadenfreude."

What do you think?
I don't think this is in breach of Wikipedia:Canvassing. It appears to be a neutrally worded message to people that Evrik has worked with in the past. It's asking people for their opinion, and not soliciting a vote. Now, was it done by email, yes, but I'm okay with that. I imagine that many wikipedians use off wiki means of communication, especially the more established users. The truth is it does not appear that all the people he asked for opinions have supported him - so it appears that the effect was neutral. Where is the problem, if you can't ask the people you know the best for advice and council - then who do you ask? Oh, is anyone claiming they don't know Evrik personally, or that he held a gun to their heads. I tend to believe that some users have been following the activity. I can't figure out why Evrik would ask someone who was a known sock puppeteer for help - that doesn't help his case does it?
Betsy says, "Wikipedia policy "It is considered highly inappropriate to advertise Wikipedia articles to your friends, family members, or communities of people who agree with you, so that they come to Wikipedia and support your side of a debate." This is higly hypocritical seeing as she edits her husband's wikipedia article. In fact, she is the one who caused this whole brewhaha by going to AfD in the first place rather than, trying to seek "comments and involvement from other Wikipedians, or pursue dispute resolution." Hypocrite.
The whole Icelandic discussion is pretty amusing because it isn't really true or applicable to this case, but hides an even bigger point. Early on in this discussion, before this whole thing came to this AfD, there were some bad faith actions on the part of the editors, perhaps Evrik should have sought consensus before making some of the changes he did, but then why is there the whole WP:Bold policy? Reading through this, I don't understand why this wasn't worked out It seems to me that the nomination was made in an effort to bulldoze Evrik into submission - also something done in questionable faith. Betsy Devine is an experienced use, so her naivete is disingenuous. Well, that appears to have had mixed results seeing as Betsy has had her biography nominated for deletion, another user got blocked and Evrik has placed himself in a self-imposed exile.
What I find most amazing about this whole discussion is the way that the editors have attacked each other; the whole point of the discussion has been lost. The attacks are very troubling, because they were rooted in the same troubling way this article was nominated for deletion. Why have they done their best to discredit every contributor who has disagreed with them? Attack, after attack, after attack. Accusations of cabals, secret societies yada yada yada. Wikipedia doesn't really work by consensus; it works by who gets the most votes. If someone is losing a vote, the best thing to do is swiftboat them. I hope that users stop attacking each other, this whole discussion has been an abuse of the processes that are supposed to make this community stronger. As an infrequent editor, I find it troubling that people are being attacked for not editing too often, being new users, for living in the same area, or for being friends. CS, seems to be afraid of losing the debate on the merits. This means of disenfranchising people is discouraging. If I could wag a finger, I would wag it at all of you. As I was writing this, I saw that Evrik just got reported to the administrators, and that Betsy has decide to dogpile. Again, another attack. Really courageous seeing as Evrik has gone on break and wihdrawn from the argument. Looking through all the people who have commented it looks like at least three administrators have commented. If there was a problem, I'm sure they would have noticed it.
Philly people in happier days
The proponents of schadenfreude seem very eager to protect their turf. Why can't there be two self-referential articles? While the topics are similar, they are distinct and different. The truth is that the words, and the concepts ARE different. They have different histories and each contributes something different to Wikipedia. There is no real reason for them to be merged. I would vote "keep" the article. I can't log into my account; but I wanted my comments to be heard.
As I'm signing off, I want to point out so far betsythedevine, Deor and CS have attacked Evrik, Sur de Filadelphia, Marketstel, Raider.adam, Eagleapex and Lblanchard. They have been accused of some pretty silly things, but here in the Wikiworld silly things take on great importance. In some ways I'm glad I can't log on.


Oh, and a note to Ike9898 and Immortalgoddezz, yeah, it'll be real fun at Wikipedia:Meetup/Philadelphia 7.
- hope that this whole thing dies down 19:13, 16 May 2008

P.S. In the time I took to write this, Evrik retired.

No problem! AnturiaethwrTalk 15:00, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's no need to close this AFD early. "Merge and redirect" is one of the possible outcomes at AFD. My support for "Redirect" above is in effect the same thing as merge; I only wrote "Redirect" because it seemed to me that all necessary content had already been merged at that point. As some content was first created at epicaricacy then added to schadenfreude, it is better to keep the edit history of epicaricacy to show who created it. "Merge and redirect" achieves that. It is also permissible to create a bare redirect after deletion, but that removes the edit history. Let's allow the debate to complete its normal course. Whether it ends in merge or delete, it forbids creating a WP:POVFORK article again. - Fayenatic (talk) 11:28, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Speedy delete per CSD:G11. Stifle (talk) 19:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Penguin Travel[edit]

Penguin Travel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No assertion of notability; possibly advertising. Biruitorul (talk) 16:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete --Selket Talk 22:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cardiovascular risk[edit]

Cardiovascular risk (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Reads like an advertisement for healing waters in Covasna. Some text may be merged to Covasna, but the article should be deleted. See WP:PNT#Cardiovascular risk for a discussion on this article. nneonneo talk 16:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy deleted by Anthony Appleyard (G11: Blatant advertising). Non-admin closure. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 23:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Habbzo[edit]

Habbzo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable, advertisement, speedy tag continuously removed without explanation or attempt to discuss Jasynnash2 (talk) 15:25, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete --JForget 01:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nuts4Nuts[edit]

Nuts4Nuts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No assertion of notability, no coverage in secondary sources or evidence that the company passes the notability guidelines for corporations and products. First page of google hits shows wikipedia at the top, youtube, the company's website, flikr, not much else (1710 total). Page is an orphan, has been since 2005 when it was created. WLU (talk) 15:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note - second nomination, first can be found here - was 2.5 years ago, original discussion contained no real rationale for the keep !votes besides "now it's not nonsense". (if someone knows how to put the 1st nom in the pretty box, please do so as I forgot to) WLU (talk) 15:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete. Seraphim♥Whipp 00:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Turaga (Bionicle)[edit]

Turaga (Bionicle) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article asserts no notability through reliable sources, and is just a regurgitation of the plot of the various Bionicle stories from the novel and video game articles. As such, it is repetitive of that content with no out of universe information and should be deleted. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 06:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And as there has been no improvement, and the keep arguments had no relation to policy, here we are again. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 15:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that's why I'm not doing what I often do in such cases and recommend keep, because the last AFD was rather ambiguous. But someone looking at it might take it as a snowball on first glance. 23skidoo (talk) 19:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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*Delete, just plot summary without notability (i.e. independent, reliable sources). Graevemoore (talk) 23:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Appearances can be deceiving, especially when there is no demonstrated proof that any of those books are anything but plot regurgitation in an in-universe way, or novels of bionicle, which don't count either. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 20:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, all but one appear to be fiction, "produced ... under license from the LEGO Group" (to quote from one), and hence can only used for plot summaries, and lack the third-party nature required to demonstrate notability. The first, "The Imagination Challenge", has some potential, but by itself does not demonstrate notability. Jakew (talk) 20:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete.  Sandstein  21:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shaheed Mir Murtaza Abro[edit]

Shaheed Mir Murtaza Abro (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced, google hasn't heard of him. Anon editors remove any requests for references without comment. Weregerbil (talk) 08:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Speedy delete a7, no assertion of notability. NawlinWiki (talk) 15:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jochen Heisenberg[edit]

Jochen Heisenberg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Contested ((prod)) brought here for consensus. RobertGtalk 14:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, no assertion of notability: being the offspring of a notable individual does not confer notability. --RobertGtalk 14:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: THis article was speedy deleted once already today and recreated. No need for AfD. I have restored the Speedy tag. Harry the Dog WOOF 14:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It was speedy deleted by me (the nominator) and I restored it myself when I noticed that it had been a contested prod. I replaced the AFD tag. Of course, another administrator may care to re-delete it speedily. --RobertGtalk 14:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Keep - Peripitus (Talk) 11:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mika Tauriainen[edit]

Mika Tauriainen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Does not meet wikipedia's guidelines for wp:notability Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 15:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Delete --JForget 01:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Senthamil Thillainathan[edit]

Senthamil Thillainathan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

An article about a murderer though whether they are notable enough is questionable. They only get 107 hits, the case seems to be unremarkable and not unlike many other such murder cases. Polly (Parrot) 15:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was speedy close, redirects to deleted articles are normally deleted, mentioned in other AFD. Non-admin closure. --Dhartung | Talk 21:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Akademi basong[edit]

Akademi basong (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

A redirect page directing traffic to another worthless article deleted previous created by the author who created that worthless article. Yes, I am angry. __earth (Talk) 14:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Delete --JForget 01:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Akademi Basong[edit]

Akademi Basong (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable. Claims to be a think-tank but seems to be selling stuff rather than doing the usual think tank stuff. Been deleted earlier [32] but recreated almost immediately after deletion. __earth (Talk) 14:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Forgive Her... (2nd nomination)

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The result was delete. Seraphim♥Whipp 23:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Kicks[edit]

The Kicks (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Delete nn band fails WP:BAND. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Keep. Appears to have reliable sources - needs expanding, not deleting. I will have a look myself when I get a moment. Black Kite 18:11, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Edit: the article already exists at Metaltown Festival - redirected there. Black Kite 18:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Metaltown[edit]

Metaltown (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Delete nn rock concert Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fabrictramp (talk) 13:55, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete notability not established. I note that the BBC had a nice site for vote2001, including video and audio, so the net was not that bacwards back then. There is no mention of Mike Roberts as a key person of the Conservatives, and Mike Roberts profile shows exactly nothing in the "Political career" section. If User:JamesBondMI6 wishes to have it userfied just drop me a line at my talk page, please. - Nabla (talk) 17:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mike Roberts (politician)[edit]

Mike Roberts (politician) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable politician. Article has been tagged with "Notability" several times, by different editors, and the tag removed by original author of article, with no notability added and some offensive edit summaries. There has been fruitless discussion on talk page. PamD (talk) 13:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As to notability, there are multiple definitions of notability in Wiki. Getting the UK centre right to buy into the concept of gay marriage was a notable achievment in itself.

There is a significant amount of material referring to this individual, it's just going to take time to get hold of it, get permission to publish it, and post it up here - which won't happen if this is deleted. I've worked for a number of politicians in my time and have an excellent insight into the behind the scenes machinations. It would be good to make it available. (JamesBondMI6 (talk) 22:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Note that this editor User:JamesBondMI6 has already voted "Keep" above.PamD (talk) 06:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As a further comment, although it is repeated that there are sources that establish notability (even on the definition that JameBondMI6 would want to use), I note that none have been added to the article in an attempt to verify the notability by means of suitable reliable sources, and ample time has been given to do this. Instead, it seems that the most effort done by editors who want this article to be retained consists in either removing the appropriately added notices that ask for notability to be established, or arguing about sources we have yet to see in the article. Wikipedia acts on established facts, rather than promises of facts, etc, and so I see no reason why the article should be retained at the moment. I think that if this seems too harsh to those who wish the article to be retained, the concession of saving it to the main editor's talk space, allowing time for the article to be brought up to minimal standards if it can be, would be a sensible step, though it is not required at all: the better course of action would be for those who want to keep the article to start adding, without delay, reliable sources that verify and establish the notability of the subject, rather than arguing on the basis of promises here.  DDStretch  (talk) 07:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. MastCell Talk 16:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kenneth Gordon Neufeld[edit]

Kenneth Gordon Neufeld (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable person. Article only cites his own website, one of his friends' sites, and a couple of articles he has written. There is nothing about him in a reliable source. His claim to fame is that he was a member of the Unification Church years ago and didn't like it. If this was any other church but the "Moonies" I don't think anyone would pay him attention. (Oddly enough it was a Unification Church member who started the article.) Borock (talk) 13:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Thanks for the notice. When I started the article I was fairly new on WP and didn't understand all the policies. (Not that I do now. :-)) I don't feel that I can conscienciously vote for or against the article now. I would like to say that Gordon is a good writer and his essays have been published in several main-stream outlets. He provides an important source for American Unification Church history and his criticisms of the church represent a legitimate point of view.Steve Dufour (talk) 14:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and merge - I disagree with Steve Dufour about the "legitimacy" of Neufeld's criticisms. But one virtue of NPOV, as originally intended, is that it lets readers judge POV's for themselves. Having a compendium of Ex-members of the Unification Church would enable readers to see their common misconceptions - or to be "neutral" - their common perspective from which they judge their former church. Do they see darkness because they see through dark glasses, or what? --13:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't say that I agreed with his opinions, just that he has the right to express them. I also think his first hand account of his experiences is valuable. I could also mention that he has always seemed to have a concern for truth and honesty, in marked contrast to many some more well-known UC critics. Steve Dufour (talk) 01:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Keep. There is also a strong case here for a possible merge. If anyone is so inclined, propose the merger on the respective talkpages of the from/to articles. Not an AfD procedure. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ken Fahey[edit]

Ken Fahey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article lacks any real world information. may fail notability per WP:FICTION Ultra! 20:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete--JForget 01:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Knowledge creation[edit]

Knowledge_creation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - (View AfD)

This page was previously nominated for deletionWikipedia:Articles for deletion/Knowledge creation and while kept was reduced to a stub. No activity has taken place since, and there were no strong advocates for it last time so I suggest we finally kill it off. Snowded (talk) 09:50, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was keep. This was a close and contntous one as evidenced by both the volume of discussion and the reluctance of admins (including myself yestarday) to close it before now. The conflict of interest concerns are grounds for rewriting but do not speak to whether the article should exist in the first place. At least one editor !voting keep suggested that the article could exist but not as written. There is no reason to delete such an article unless there are BLP or libel issues.

The personal attacks both here and on the article's talk page are reprehensible, but ultimately irrelvent to the notibility of the subject. I find the notability argument weak, but sufficient. Likewise the !votes narrowly come out in favor or retention. I think, in the end, the result should be clear. Hopefully, both sides can come together and produce an article that does not have the problems of the current version. --Selket Talk 23:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mark Hanau[edit]

Mark Hanau (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

WP:COI, "An article about a little-known band should preferably not be written by a band member or the manager." The article about Mark Hanau is written and edited by someone saying he's Mark Hanau (see comments in user contributions) and using Mark Hanau's website, aimultimedia.com. Editor has also edited or created numerous pages w/subjects he has a close personal connection to like airconditioning, saturnalia, curved air, liquid light shows, John Vickers, and Academy of Live and Recorded Arts. WP:NOTE Article does not establish notability of subject as per guidelines "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". WP:VER, claims not verifiable, some claims conflict with published accounts. Editor/subject uses [artistopia.com] as a source in this article and in other edited articles, but artistopia.com has Wikipedia as source. Before I deleted it, (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=NME_Awards&oldid=209579910), subject placed an image of an invitation to an awards event and represented it as an actual award. WP:SOAPBOX, Aimulti/Hanau is engaging in self-aggrandizement I think by exaggeration, has claimed to have co-founded Paul McCartney's McCartney Productions, established a school (ARLA), won awards, and met "Berthold (sic) Brecht" with no support. WP:NOTMYSPACE, editor using Wikipedia to showcase himself. WP:PSTS, editor using primary sources without secondary source backup, such as a college prospectus to establish he "founded" the college 'tho secondary sources give different story. WP:OR, editor/subject scans primary documents and submits them via his company website, aimultimedia.com. WP:Living Many, like example Aimulti claims an actor is his daughter without source. RetroS1mone (talk) 04:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did so with my daughters full permission. She is as angry about this slur as I am.Aimulti (talk) 15:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, please keep in mind that disclosure of personal information for any reason is in violation of Wikipedia's living persons policies. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 00:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You refer to RetroS1mone as 'she'. May I ask how you knew this editor was female?Aimulti (talk) 15:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Admittedly, I don't, but the name "Simone" is female AFAIK. One could also ask why you assumed the editor was male, but the gender of your critic is irrelevant. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 00:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lets stop pretending. I know who you are. Keeponkeepingon is your usual handle and you have hounded me for years on Yahoo Answers etc, etc. I took me I while to figure it out (must be getting old). Feel free to deny it (as I am sure you will) but we both know what this is about. Quite frankly I don't really care one way or another now that I know the nature of this action. Enjoy yourself. Aimulti (talk) 05:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not "Keeponkeepingon" and I do not have any knowledge of "Keeponkeepingon." I have never written on Yahoo Answers. You are making unsubstantiated claims. I have defended your notability and tried to help improve the sourcing in your autobiography. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 14:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can only comment on the section of the article regarding band management and picture discs, which I find informative, well-referenced, and certainly notable enough to qualify for inclusion in Wikipedia. I have no knowledge of Mark Hanau's life or career outside his involvement with Curved Air and Saturnalia but feel that to delete the entire article is extreme overkill and that a less-heated debate would enable the rest of the article to be brought up to the required standard. RGCorris (talk) 19:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RGCorris, I agree with you that Mark Hanau's contribution to picture discs may be sufficiently notable for inclusion in Wikipedia with appropriate documentation. I will leave it to others to decide whether Hanau should have a biography article or should, rather, have his information merged into the other relevant articles. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 00:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Motives for attack on this article[edit]

discussion moved to Talk - Corvus cornixtalk 18:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Motives are irrelevant. The discussion here is whether or not this article meets Wikipedia guidelines and policies. Take extraneous discussion elswhere, it has no bearing on this discussion. I am moving the off-topic arguments to the Talk page. Corvus cornixtalk 18:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NME AWARD[edit]

Not only did I provide a reference (the NME 1971 awards issue of NME), I also provided a scan of the actual invitation. NME only invited people to the awards who had won one. It was not like a Hollywood event, just a small reception room, some press and the presentation committee. Tony Blackburn (DJ) presented the awards. I have requested a back issue (the 1971 awards issue) from NME and also asked them to confirm Mark Hanau was the winner. How much more can you reference something? Wikipedia only requires a reference and I provided that and more. How many Wikipedia entries provide such solid references? Do I need Mark Hanau's DNA on the award and carbon dating? This is getting absurd!

Aimulti (talk) 04:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absurd claim Sasha Hanau is not Mark Hanau's daughter[edit]

Aimulti, I have deleted the personal contact information you provided. Whether you are Sasha Hanau's father, as you claim to be, or not, Wikipedia prohibits disclosure of personal information. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 13:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now I am confused. Not that it is directly relevant to the question of whether this article should be deleted or not, but near the top of this page, it is stated that the information on Sasha was mentioned with the consent of aimulti's daughter. But here, it is stated specifically that Sasha is not aimulti's daughter. 69.140.152.55 (talk) 21:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sasha is Mark Hanau's daughter. Your link does not depute that. It was making fun of the absurd assertion she is not. I will add copy of her birth cert., as soon as it arrives from England. Sasha was willing to have her phone number listed and to confirm this in person but Wikipedia does not allow that. Her birth cert. is the best I can do. I would hardly claim to be her father, on Wikipedia, if I was not.Aimulti (talk) 00:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mark, Toddst1 and I have referred you to WP materials on what is acceptable as documentation. Please do not post anyone's birth certificate or other personal information. Your daughter (or your parents, for that matter) has nothing to do with your notability, is not mentioned as your daughter in any reliable sources, and does not belong in this article. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 00:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ALRA[edit]

Not only did I provide a reference from Kent Library naming the 'managers' of ALRA. They use the term for directors but also an image of the school prospectus showing Mark Hanau was Chairman of the Board (by law this information must be correct (Companies Act) and false information is a criminal act). In addition, every prospectus up to 1997 and all school stationary confirm this. In addition to that the company registary is public domain and can be easily checked. http://www.companies-house.gov.uk/toolsToHelp/findCompanyInfo.shtml

In addition every single issue of the weekly newspaper, Stage and Television Today (UK) has display advertisements for ALRA naming Mark Hanau as Chairman of the Board (from 1984 to 2001)

Aimulti (talk) 09:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Brecht[edit]

Provided three solid references (Newspaper and two University archives) showing that Mark Hanau's parents both worked with Brecht in East Berlin when Mark was a child. Removed line saying Mark met him (as this cannot be referenced) but who can doubt you meet someone who is working with your parents for over two years in a closed society like post war East Berlin? Aimulti (talk) 10:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion of keep/toss[edit]

ALRA is in LONDON, England. (Not. Montgomery County, Maryland). Simply check the public record on-line data base. I provided a link as a reference. Direct link. http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/8d44684a52dcc89a24cdbbd0d9d3c8f2/compdetails. The information costs $1. I will buy it a post a link.Aimulti (talk) 22:42, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I never claimed to have named Curved Air. Francis Monkman did. I simply claimed that I added Sonja (she confirms that on her page). Aimulti (talk) 22:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It appears that this opinion was canvassed. See User_talk:Simonxag#Your_request_and.. Toddst1 (talk) 13:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does Wikipedia ban contributors asking for each other's support ? RGCorris (talk) 14:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:CANVAS: "messages that are written to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion compromise the consensus building process and are generally considered disruptive." Aimulti engaged in a subcategory of canvassing known as "campaigning." He selectively notified at least two editors who agreed with him on other issues or whom he had assisted with other requests and asked them to give his autobiography a thumbs up. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 15:02, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

COMMENT ON ABOVE. Your link shows no such thing. Aids Myth Exposed does not even have a member with that name. I checked. I also note Nocontroversy is yet another member who has only edited on the topic of 'AIDS' (except one small ski edit). Funny how everyone voting for delete has the same edit history. Aimulti (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Aimulti and Nocontroversy, please restrict your comments to discussion of this article. What Mark said under what pseudonym where is irrelevant here. Thank you, Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 22:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I note you (Keepcalmandcarryon) started the thread referenced above. QUOTE: -From: keepcalmandcarryon (Original Message) Sent: 4/26/2008 11:44 AM I'm sure y'all have noticed that, despite its claim to maintain a "neutral point of view", Wikipedia's articles relating to AIDS dissidence are biased (see for example the entry on Celia Farber). In honor of Rethinking AIDS day I am going to make time to do some editing and adding of needed references, and I encourage others to do the same! THIS WHOLE THING IS BEGINNING TO STINK MORE AND MORE. Aimulti (talk) 22:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It is believed that this WP:SPA is a sockpuppet of aimulti (talk · contribs). Please see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Aimulti — Preceding unsigned comment added by Toddst1 (talkcontribs) 18:08, 15 May 2008

THAT IS A TOTAL LIE. Aimulti (talk) 20:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please see talk page, "Elephant in the Room." Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 21:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

COMMENT. I did not ask this person to get involved UNLIKE the members of DAG Exposed (MSN Group) who have organized this campaign against me. Aimulti (talk) 21:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

COMMENT. If this REALLY was about references than may I ask why the Mark Hanau bio with over 30 is the target of so much attention? Compare it to the vastly longer article: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Mullins_(musician) with not a single reference. This same situation is common throughout Wikipedia. Seems like a double standard or could the motive be as I have claimed? Aimulti (talk) 03:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Aimulti I tried to explain you twice the copyright problem. [38] but you are not listening. At Peace News you copied directly from the Brock archives [39]. Thats not "totally original in content". Its plagiarism. So much it puts all your stuff in doubt. Every edit I made is from copyright or plagiarism or POV. RetroS1mone (talk) 23:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hugh Brock provided that material to the library service for the sole purpose of providing a history of Peace News. I only referenced a few facts from the archive and the rest was from other sources. You are using every trick in the book to target my editions. If I don't use referenced material you delete it and if I do you still delete it. No article on Wikipedia is possible on this basis as you well know. I could tear Wikipedia apart using your criteria for deletion.

I don't care anymore what you do as I have decided NEVER again to contribute to Wikipedia or even look at it. I was suckered back last time but that was a VERY silly error on my part. With you and your little gang of thugs hounding me, I am wasting my time here. You are a really vicious and sick lady and nothing you do will change what I have achieved in my life (or am about to achieve). I now hope that this final article is deleted so you and your bullyboy/bullygirl buddies have nothing left to vandalize. In short, GO TO HELL. (Hope you get me banned for that comment - I am sure you can). Aimulti (talk) 03:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Aimulti you copied section from the Hugh Brock archives. Not "referenced a few facts". Same what you did with John Vickers and other plagiarism I found. You have an agenda at wikipedia to change AIDS info and the peace news and the rest is to make your self an established editor. You said it yourself on your Paul King account at the AIDS myth cite. So you don't care enough about those articles to do a good job you just copy. A good strategy but not what Wikipedia is for. RetroS1mone talk 15:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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References[edit]

  1. ^ AIDS Myth Exposed
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The result was Redirect to List of One Life to Live characters. Black Kite 18:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

R. J. Gannon[edit]

R. J. Gannon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article lacks any real world information. may fail notability per WP:FICTION. Ultra! 20:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete.  Sandstein  21:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wars of the east[edit]

Wars of the east (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Articles fails WP:Notable. SkyWalker (talk) 10:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Seems to be a non-notable hobby of someone. Although it sounds like fun and a lot of work was put into it it doesn't need an encyclopedia article. Borock (talk) 13:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete. ¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 07:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ole Söderberg[edit]

Ole Söderberg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Previously WP:PRODded, then recreated. The subject is a 17-year-old Swedish youngster who fails WP:ATHLETE (no professional appearances). Angelo (talk) 12:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete.  Sandstein  21:22, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Electronics Engineering Services[edit]

Electronics Engineering Services (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

As per WP:CRYSTAL and it doesn't explain the topic. Pupster21 Talk To Me 12:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This is a second keep vote by User:Manavbhardwaj. Nsk92 (talk) 16:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since you didn't change the actual explanation of what I said, I'm inclined to assume that it was only a case of unfamiliarity with the format of these discussions and the editing software.

    On the other hand, Wikipedia is generally not the place to propose new business models or plans. Our requirements of "notability" and "reliable sources" are jargon here; but what they seek to guarantee is that article subjects not be new ideas, but pre-existing ideas that are well established enough to be noticed by disinterested third parties. This makes it difficult to suggest places where this might be merged, and I am not familiar enough with electronics engineering as a business to suggest some other place where your text might be more welcome. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 20:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete.  Sandstein  21:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Smurf Conspiracy Theories[edit]

Smurf Conspiracy Theories (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Notability not established; no reliable sources used, and none seem to be available in searches.  Frank  |  talk  11:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wait Wait... is certainly not a source...it's a comedic game show based on the news. Great show, very entertaining...but not a source.  Frank  |  talk  18:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Delete. This doesn't look like a real article, and the editors in this discussion had a variety of different ideas for how to fix it. I will make the article text available to anyone who wants to work on it in their own user space. WP:NOT suggests to me that the material may not be appropriate anywhere, but with a lot of work, someone might be able to create normal article content. EdJohnston (talk) 02:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tanjore Diary[edit]

Tanjore Diary (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The page was speedy-deleted once (by User:Ganeshk), and Template:Prod was added to it before but removed later by the page creator (User talk:Arunvats). I've gone through the article briefly, compared it with Thanjavur, and here's what I get:

As a conclusion, I'm suggesting either merge (somehow) into Thanjavur or delete. — Yurei-eggtart 11:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whats the deal with the "Tanjore Diary" naming?? What I;d suggest doing is merging with the Thanjavur article ir moving to a Economy of Thanjavur sub articles and formatting some of the more useful information properly in a table. On quick glance some of the info in this article looks like it should be filtered down but I doubt anybody should be removing material which gives information on the economy and facilities of the villages. Technically it is an encyclopedic article which just needs a lot of work reformatting and representing to standards and splitting appropriately in the relevant articles. SOme of the info might be converted to text. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 16:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Merge" to Thanjavur district you mean...? — Yurei-eggtart 08:04, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Speedy delete per CSD:A1. Stifle (talk) 19:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Diorenzi villatito[edit]

Diorenzi villatito (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Possible speedy delete A1 candidate. The only thing I can find on the subject of the article is this which ranks them at 157 on a list on under 14 Philippines tennis players. This does not indicate the level of reliable sourcing required to meet the primary notability criteria or the specific criteria for people Guest9999 (talk) 10:42, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Speedy delete So why didn't you tag it speedy? That would save work for AfD reviewers... However, as it does identify him as a tennis player, a WP:PROD might be more appropriate.
  • He is at most 14 years old => not professional => NN
  • He is not ranked well within his division of the "Southern Tagalog CALABARZON Athletic Association" => double NN
  • What is there to discuss? Potatoswatter (talk) 11:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If someone wants to tag as a speedy go ahead I do not think that this discussion prevents that, I wasn't sure and thought it best to err on the side of caution (incidentally Martina Hingis became a Wimbledon champion at 15). Guest9999 (talk) 12:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was redirect to Deep Zone Project. Notability, for being at Eurovision Contest, is not for each of the subjets, but for their collaboration. Also all the info about DJ Balthazar is currently already at the taget. Naturally with no prejudice for a later split, should new info arise. - Nabla (talk) 21:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DJ Balthazar[edit]

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The result was Speedy Delete per CSD:G3 (Hoax). UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 15:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Colin berton[edit]

Colin berton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article claims notability, but I have never heard of Colin berton or the Sydney Sand-devils. It may not be a hoax, but the claim to notability seems to be greatly overstated Grahame (talk) 08:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was no consensus to delete, default to keep.  Sandstein  08:05, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bari Imam[edit]

Bari Imam (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The current article lacks a clear assertion of notability and has no reliable sourcing. I am not familiar enough with the subject to determine if it is a salvageable topic or not, but currently it's largely a coatrack for the various Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi fanatics that have been trying to spread the word via Wikipedia. (Article creator, Asikhi (talk · contribs), is the "Press & Information Secretary" for Shahi's organization.) — Scientizzle 15:38, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
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The result was no consensus to delete, default to keep. Even after discounting several single purpose accounts, we do not have a consensus to delete. Any POV and sourcing problems the article might have can be remedied by editing, renaming or merging it, all of which do not require deletion. These problems (if any) do not appear to be so fundamental as to require outright deletion despite the lack of a consensus for deletion. If the TV programme is perceived to be more notable than the event itself, the article can be rewritten to focus on the programme.  Sandstein  08:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Killings at Coolacrease[edit]

Killings at Coolacrease (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This is an unsalvageable mish-mish of an article, a pile of original research, synthesis and POV-pushing about an obscure incident near the end of the Irish War of Independence whose only claim to notability is that it was the subject of a controversial TV programme produced and broadcast late last year by RTÉ. I think that there are good grounds for believing that the TV program itself is notable — there is plenty of substantial coverage in reliable sources, including articles in most of Ireland's major national newspapers.

However, the article was created as an article about the historical event, and there are insufficient reliable secondary sources to support such an article. The sources available consist of two memoirs by people whose families were involved in different sides of the conflict, one transcript of any indymedia debate led by Pat Muldowney (of whom more anon), and a pile of primary sources published on indymedia. At no stage in the discussions on the article's talk pages has anyone offered any evidence that there exists any impartial, scholarly account of the events; all that we have is the pile of material generated by the protagonists, and suggestions that something more solid may be forthcoming in the future.

The existence of this article are completely bound up in the debate over the TV programme, and it is being used a battleground by at least one of the protagonists in that controversy. The programme provoked a heated debate in Ireland, not least from two individuals (Paddy Heaney and Pat Muldowney), who claimed that the program was biased, and lodged unsuccessful complaints with Ireland's Broadcasting Complaints Commission.[45] Muldowney also engaged in the public debate in the press, and wrote extensively about the TV programme on indymedia, strongly opposing the programme and setting out what he believed was a more accurate presentation of the history.

So far so good; there's nothing at all wrong with anyone participating passionately in a public debate. However, the wikipedia problems began when Pat Muldowney (talk · contribs) began to summarise his views in a wikipedia article. It is to Muldowney's credit that he registered in his own name, but as a vocal protagonist in the public controversy, he had a clear conflict of interest and should have refrained from editing the article. Unfortunately, repeated requests for him to do so have been unsuccessful, and after the article was substantially revised by others he removed most of the additions.

Muldowney may not be the only editor here with an outside involvement with this issue. Other contributions, largely supporting Muldowney, have been made by Knockanore (talk · contribs), only one of whose 15 contributions is not to this article or its talk page. Yet another single-purpose account is User:Feint, who has made substantial edits to the article but not participated in any discussions, and there is also Spleen&ideal (talk · contribs). I don't think that I have ever seen so many single-purpose accounts at work on an article.

I tried myself to add some balance to the article, but apart from the difficulties involved in discussion with editors apparently uninterested in wikipedia policies, I eventually concluded that there not enough sources to allow an article on anything other than the TV programme.

As above, I think that there is a theoretical possibility that a properly-sourced article could be written on the TV program. However, the latest edits have removed nearly all coverage of the TV program, leaving this version, which is an appalling mishmash of original research and synthesis primarily written by an editor with a huge COI, and relying in large part on indymedia sources and on the accounts Alan Stanley and Paddy Heaney (neither of whom is a professional historian, both of whom is writing about their own relatives).

It may be that in future there will be sufficient published scholarship to allow a properly-sourced article to be written about the historical event, but as of now, there isn't. What we have here is a travesty of many wikipedia policies, and it should be deleted. If kept, it will continue to be abused as a vehicle for various POV-pushers with vested interests to promote the original research on which this article is founded. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No Deletion, No Gagging. I've checked through the article again to see if there is any valid reason for deletion. I just can't see it. The basic historical facts on which all sources agree are given and cited. Areas of disagreement are listed and appropriate sources for each side cited, without any indication of editorial preference that I can detect.

The sources cited are good. One of the main sources is the academic work of Philip McConway which is published by the highly regarded Offaly Historical and Archaeological Society, and is readable off their website. The cited work of Paddy Heaney is published by the same society and its affiliates.

The main sources for the opposing case are Alan Stanley's 2005 book (cited in the original article), and Eoghan Harris's October 9 2005 Sunday Independent article. Maybe the Harris article is a more WP-appropriate citation than Alan Stanley's book. But Harris's article is just a resumé of Stanley's book, and I think the latter should also be cited.

The list of citations in the article includes documents in the public domain (Public Records Office etc) which are selectively quoted in most discussions about the 1921 incidents. These sources are cited in the article without drawing any conclusions or implications from them – no analysis.

These sources have been placed in the public domain by the authority of two states – the Irish and British. It is reasonable to quote from them provided the quotes are accurate and balanced. One of the merits of the article was that, in effect, it quoted them in full (by means of hyperlinks) but without drawing conclusions from them. It is a mistake to remove those links, in my opinion.

There has been far too much ad hominem argument here. Knockanore (talk) 09:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC) Knockanore (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

ReplyKnockanore, one of the reason that new editors are cautioned against participating in deletions debates is that new editors lack familiarity with the policies and guidelines on which such decisions are made. Please read WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NOR. What a wikipedia article needs is reliable secondary sources ... and the only source offered so far which comes anywhere close to meeting that test is a two-part article in the local newspaper in County Offaly. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
PS Knockanore, you claim that the Offaly Historical and Archaeological Society is "highly regarded". Any evidence in reliable sources for that assertion, or that its publications are the subject of the professional peer review and fact-checking discussed in Wikipedia:V#Reliable_sources? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

←If you read Wikipedia:Guide to deletion#Discussion, you will see that it says clearly that "relevant facts and evidence are welcome from anyone but the opinions of anonymous and/or suspiciously new users may be discounted by the closing admin". You have offered no facts or evidence; all you have offered is an unfounded allegation of a political agenda on the part of an established editor.

The main purpose of a deletion debate is to assess whether an article complies with wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and it is a problem that your replies here do not address the lack of reliable sources on the incident itself, and consequent failure to meet the notability guidelines. Instead of addressing those issues, you have chosen to claim (without any evidence) that I have some political ideology which is being brought to bear on the debate.
In terms of reliable secondary sources for the event, the closet we have anything which would meet WP:N is two articles in a low-circulation local newspaper:

That's it. There is nothing else to establish the notability of the 1921 events, apart from primary sources and a bunch of unreliable sources

... but to establish the notability of the TV documentary we have:

  1. David Adams (9 November 2007). "Diehards reveal true colours". The Irish Times. Retrieved 2004-04-24.
  2. Eoghan Harris (9 October 2005). "This tree has rotten roots and bitter fruit". Sunday Independent. Retrieved 2008-04-24.
  3. Niamh Sammon (25 November 2005). "Unfounded claims about killings". Letters column, The Sunday Independent. Retrieved 2008-04-24.
    *Eoghan Harris (11 November 2005). "Why bodies buried deep in the green bog must be raised". Sunday Independent. Retrieved 2008-04-24.
    * David Adams (9 November 2007). "Diehards reveal true colours". The Irish Times. Retrieved 2004-04-24.
  4. Niamh Sammon (25 November 2005). "Unfounded claims about killings". Letters column, The Sunday Independent. Retrieved 2008-04-24.
  5. History Ireland, January-February 2008
  6. More coverage in the Irish Independent
  7. "'Time for truth on murders'". Belfast Newsletter. 14 November 2007. Retrieved 2004-04-24.
  8. "Can we learn the lessons of history?". The Western People. 31 October 2007. Retrieved 2004-04-24.
  9. Lots more coverage in the Irish Times
  10. Lynne Kelleher (21 October 2007). "30 IRA men shot two farm brothers in the groin and left them to". Sunday Mirror. Retrieved 2008-04-24.

Plus less reliable sources such as:

... plus the fact that on 18 April 2008, the television documentary The Killings at Coolacrease won an International Hugo Television Award (Gold Plaque in the Documentary: History and Biography category), run as part of the 44th Chicago International Film Festival (see RTE (18 April 2008). "RTÉ Wins International Hugo Awards". RTE. Retrieved 2008-04-28.)

Despite all this evidence, you and the other single-purpose editors such as Knockanore are arguing that the TV documentary is not notable, but the event is? Please, if you are going to reply, do take some time to read WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NOR, WP:SYN and then the notability guidelines at WP:N. That way you might have something to say about the deletion criteria rather than making inaccurate guesses about my alleged "political ideology". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You and the other single-purpose editors such as Knockanore are arguing that the TV documentary is not notable - Where? 82.36.178.185 (talk) 16:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You above, others on the article's talk page. OH, and BTW, don't edit other contributors' comments. (see WP:TPG). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Deletion is for trivia, stuff like pop-groups no one has heard of.--GwydionM (talk) 16:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply. Trivia is only one of many possible grounds for deletions: see some of the others listed at Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Reasons_for_deletion. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I should stress that the quality of the TV documentary is not relevant to its notability. Whether it is a brilliant piece of research or a pile of tendentious nonsense, what matters is its notability, which is established though the copious refs on the subsequent controversy. I would argue strongly against any suggestion that TV documentary be regarded as a reliable source on matters of history, other than in exceptional circumstances ... and in this case the notability of the programme stems in large part from the controversy over its reliability. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The subject is important enough to induce, on a quick count, ten history professionals to involve themselves publicly in it. Two of them have published on the subject. (Regarding the separate issue of the TV programme, no history professional that I know of has defended it publicly, and five that I know of have publicly declared it to have no merit as history.) Pat Muldowney (talk) 21:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC) Pat Muldowney (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Reply Pat, it's interesting to see you still continuing to use wikipedia to promote your campaign against the TV programme, but it's disappointing that you still appear not to have read any of the wikipedia guidelines on which this nomination is based. The involvement of history professionals does not establish notability; what does establish notability is substantial coverage in reliable sources. The event has only one piece of coverage which comes close to being a reliable source; whereas has the TV programme has lots of coverage in reliable sources (which is a different issue from whether the programme itself is reliable).
After covering the article you created with refs to unreliable sources and to your own self-published work, you are still at it: you claim that five historians have publicly denounced the TV programme, but offer no evidence for that assertion. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
CommentBHG please read How to avoid being a "biter". You state You are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns; then when a newbie endeavours to follow this, you wholesale revert with ad hominen attacks. 82.36.178.185 (talk) 22:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply. The edit of mine to which you link is the boilerplate AFD notice, and it does not override COI issues. The edit which I reverted did not address those concerns, it reinserted copious references to partisan and unreliable sources. If you are concerned about helping new editors, then you may want to take some time to try explaining to Muldowney about wikipedia policies; I have already tried at great length, as you would see if you read the article talk page. There is nothing "ad hominem" about drawing attention to the fact that an edit breaches wikipedia policies has been made in pursuit an acknowledged conflict of interest. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment You posted the boilerplate plate - if it meant jackshit to you in this particular instance, a personal note disclaiming it could have been left. A Wikipedia conflict of interest (COI) is an incompatibility between the aim of Wikipedia, which is to produce a neutral, reliably sourced encyclopedia, and the aims of an individual editor. You well know the Sword of Damocles is above this article. Your aim, as shown here, is to have this article removed. What motivation have you to allow improvements? Can you not see that any edit you make to this article while it is under AfD is conflicting with your interests. If you desist from editing the article while the AfD is open I will endeavour to assist Pat to the best of my abilities. 82.36.178.185 (talk) 00:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply. It is not my aim to have this article removed; my aim is to remove the use on unreliable sources, original research and synthesis to create an article in pursuit of a POV. I believe that deletion is the best way to resolve that, but while deletion is being discussed, the article continues to use unreliable sources because you just reinstated them without addressing their unreliability, and those sources should be removed to avoid misleading anyone who reads the article now. I don't know what sort of help you intend to give Pat, but if your idea of help consists of reinstating unreliable sources into an article, don't expect me to think that your help is beneficial to wikipedia. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep.The suggestion that this page should be deleted is demonstrably absurd. Why is BrownHairedGirl carrying on a one girl campaign against this subject. It is somewhat obsessional. If she is so keen to celebrate a television programme, why not go off and start a page on the subject. I suggest she will have it all to herself - happy days for everyone, no need for this censorship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomath (talkcontribs) 21:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply Rather than making claims of censorship, why not address some some of the relevant policy points? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply. Because you are a policy pedant, searching for procedures that justify censorship. Is there a policy or procedure to describe that? I have better things to do than consider such nonsense. BTW, if this is Pat Muldowney's first venture into Wikipedia (people have to start somewhere), I doubt that he is getting much encouragement to persevere, given your obsession. What is your beef? Please go away for a while and let the page develop and then settle down. Maybe you have given up your foolish campaign. I see you are back editing the page. Hardly logical if you want it deleted. Nomath —Preceding comment was added at 22:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, please. My beef is that wikipedia is being abused by a high-profile protagonist in a public controversy to push his POV, using unreliable sources and original research to create an article on a non-notable subject, using the title of a topic which is notable. And indeed, I have edited the page, to remove more of the unreliable sources on which the article is based. If you think that upholding the need for reliable sources is censorship, then you are free to go and try to have the fundamental policy WP:V changed or abolished. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply. I hope I am not being uncivil when I now term you an entirely inconsistent policy pedant. You have just deleted a couple of references from the Sunday Independent, while you have left in others. The difference is, presumably, that you approve of the ones you have left in, and disagree with the ones you have censored. You deleted a reference I put in to a review of your celebrated television programme, and then reinserted it. Thank you so much. How about now reinserting the Sunday Independent refs as well. Have you got something against Mr Muldowney.? Do you know him? Have you a special desire to make life a misery for people who are trying to do their best. Or perhaps you have your own pet point of view, which you are hiding behind your professed policy wonk concern for procedure and acronyms. Maybe you are a low profile protagonist. I hope you don't consider this uncivil. Maybe I should be banned too. Nomath —Preceding comment was added at 23:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply Nomath, please can you comment on the comments, not on the contributors, and refrain from personal attacks. After removing a whole load of references to an unreliable source (Heaney's book), I noticed that in the process a ref to a reliable source had been removed, so I reinstated it. Why do you have a problem with that?
As to Muldowney, I object strongly to any conduct, from whatever POV, which amounts to using wikipedia as a campaigning tool, as Muldowney has down. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep While it is distressing than some editors are usning the article for POV pushing, that is not a ground for deletion. The article is well sourced and the comments from other posters in this debate show additonal sources exist. Edward321 (talk) 23:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep There is a question as to whether the events described occurred or not. The RTE programme failed to meet basic standards of accuracy and fairness, leaving hundreds of thousands of people with an inaccurate view of history. This was done deliberately with a view to distorting, not clarifying what happened. Apparently, very lax or even non-existent standards of research ethics were applied in this programme. Now BHG wants to apply impossibly high standards to a well-researched and balanced entry that sets the record straight and attempts undo some of the harm done by that ill-advised programme, while condoning those that were applied in the RTE programme. It seems to have been forgotten by BHG that an encyclopaedia entry should strive as far as possible for the truth. The evidence and arguments for this entry are far superior to anything that has been attempted by the supporters of the RTE programme. An outsider can only wonder that some Irish citizens should be so concerned to conceal the truth about an event at a key point in their country's history that they should go to such lengths as this. This is a blatant attempt at censorship with the intention, one suspects of preventing the utter discrediting of the RTE programme and any subsequent attempts to revive it or something along those lines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ukobserver (talk • contribs) 13:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC) — Ukobserver (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

It is proper to ask for as much of a degree of verifiability as the subject demands. If we met the standard that you are trying to maintain for this entry, there would not be much history - we certainly wouldn't be publishing some of the much celebrated heroes of modern Irish history whose standards fall so far below those of Pat Muldowney one wonders if they are historians rather than fantasists. I cannot see the slightest reason why this entry should be removed other than your desire to suppress knowledge of what actually happened at Coolacrease. If informing people of the facts of the matter is not one of the jobs of an encyclopaedia, I don't know what is.**** —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ukobserver (talk • contribs) 09:26, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein (talk) 07:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete. I note that there are some sources for the track listings of CD-1, CD-2, and CD-3, at Amazon.com. But no mention to the said track. Backstreet Boys "For the Fans" kept, but I edited it accordingly and tagged for notability anyway - Nabla (talk) 22:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My Religion's Love[edit]

My Religion's Love (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No notability listed in the article, or existing in reality TheHYPO (talk) 07:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete - Nabla (talk) 22:17, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lighthouse (Club Penguin)[edit]

Lighthouse (Club Penguin) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

In my opinion, this article should be deleted because it does not have any references and may contain original research. Also, other rooms in Club Penguin do not have their own Wikipedia article. Vinni3 (talk) 06:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete. Only citations are from blogs and other user-generated content. Also has COI issues and appears to veer dangerously close to advertising. Black Kite 18:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not Possible IRL[edit]

Not Possible IRL (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Almost added a speedy tag for non-notable web, but couldn't quite be sure. All google hits seem to be blogs. FCSundae (talk) 06:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The journal sources do discuss art in Second Life, but neither contain the term "NPIRL" or the words "not possible" or the name of the creator listed here, Bettina Tizzy (who is also the author of the article). Perhaps this should be moved to "Art in Second Life," but right now I can't seem to find any citing of this group outside of blogs. I guess "I didn't speedy it" may not sound like I'm giving it the highest consideration, but there is really no claim of notability in this article, and I did look through the sources and try to find others before making the nom. If I'm missing something, please indicate. FCSundae (talk) 21:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
still keep I think those citations actually add to this page. I think the improvements mentioned below still sustain notability. I think more verifiable sources have been found. One of the issues we have here is that SL in world activities are ephemeral, so it will take some time to develop more secondary verifiability--Buridan (talk) 15:51, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
still keep - I have just been pointed to a citation from HBO documentaries that mentions the group and I have added that to the article. I have been doing some digging and it appears there may be more of this type of citation forthcoming over the next couple of weeks. Is it possible to have a stay on this AfD for 30days, or is the 5-day rule set in stone?BcRIPster (talk) 02:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'd also like to challenge that vote based on the poster being uninformed with their statement. There are literally dozens of publications within Second Life that replicate their content externally via blogs, that have editorial processes and content controls for their writers, and this isn't just English based. Some are Japanese, Russian, and German that I know of, and I'm sure there are more, and only a few of them republish externally via PDF, etc... many use blogs.BcRIPster (talk) 19:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Speedily kept. Nomination withdrawn with no delete opinions. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 19:17, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Social Interaction via MMORPGs[edit]

Social Interaction via MMORPGs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This is a lot more like an essay than an encyclopaedia entry, and I cannot think of how this could be rephrased to be suitable. Also, there are quite a lot of advertising statements and WP:OR/unreferenced claims - also lots of neologisms like 'Power Gamer' and 'Hotshot'. Very good intentions, it would seem, but it certainly does not fulfil inclusion criteria. asenine say what? 05:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Withdrawn per discussion. asenine say what? 18:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Speedy delete per CSD:G3. Deliberate hoaxes are vandalism. Stifle (talk) 08:55, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

El Sueno del Siempre[edit]

El Sueno del Siempre (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article about author's made up soap opera. After numerous warnings about posting about his soap opera stuff among the reference desks and making vanity articles, he still persists on doing it. Here's another article made with similar circumstances. --Ouzo (talk) 05:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Keep. Appears to meet WP:LIST, and would be less useful as a category; this is the correct way to present the material. It's quite well researched and written, could do with some citations though. Black Kite 18:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of albums containing a hidden track[edit]

Keep, how would I know where to look if I want to know which albums have hidden tracks without this article? Not all of the albums on this page have pages of their own. Bramblestar (ShadowClan Leader) (talk) 01:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of albums containing a hidden track (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

A very broad, essentially endless list. Many albums have hidden tracks, so it's not particularly special. This could perhaps be turned into a category. Spellcast (talk) 04:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I congratulate you on a new reason for deletion: "too long". Next up: "too much material" and then "too informative", followed by "too notable"? </justified sarcasim> — Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talkcontribs) 11:50, 14 May 2008
Yeah a hidden track is a non-defining and trivial part of an album. I can't see how it's significantly more special than a skit or interlude. Spellcast (talk) 09:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The albums themselves can't be used to source this because they're hidden tracks. If the album credited these songs in the liner notes, it wouldn't be a hidden track. Spellcast (talk) 15:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete.  Sandstein  07:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of songs about Pakistan[edit]

List of songs about Pakistan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Tried to get this deleted before on an en-mass AFD, but it managed to sneak by as part of the group. PRODing apparently isn't allowed now, so lets just rid of it once and for all. Note there has been no improvement to this article or its sub-articles for a year since it was saved. Bulldog123 (talk) 04:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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(

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The result was Delete --JForget 01:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Farming change in Britain[edit]

Farming change in Britain (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Yet another OR Essay. LegoTech·(t)·(c) 04:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Delete, consensus is that the article fails the relevant notability guideline. Davewild (talk) 09:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't Be A Tourist[edit]

Don't Be A Tourist (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No evidence for encyclopedic notability (see WP:COMPANY). The article spends a lot of time praising the virtues of this young company, but fails to mention any "hard facts" like the number of employees, revenue or profits. High on a tree (talk) 03:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to List of Strawberry Shortcake characters. The List of Strawberry Shortcake fillies claims a close connection between each filly and each character, so there is a benefit to the reader if these articles are merged. Wikipedia:Article_size#Technical_issues says the 32K limit, while strongly recommended, is no longer a hard and fast rule so this should not be an obstacle to merging. Fabrictramp (talk) 14:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of Strawberry Shortcake fillies[edit]

List of Strawberry Shortcake fillies (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

List of non-notable characters in the Strawberry Shortcake series. Sources aren't all that hot, and I doubt any good ones exist. I'm tempted to call this fancruft, even. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters(Broken clamshellsOtter chirps) 03:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Delete --JForget 01:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alexa Woods[edit]

Alexa Woods (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article is about a fictional character that appears only in one film and is not notable enough to warrant a stand-alone article. The article lacks any reliable secondary sources (it references only the film itself), and it is unlikely that any suitable secondary sources could be found to support an independent article about this character or indicate the character's notability. The article consists mainly of a direct copy of the "Plot" section from Alien vs. Predator (film), and all the significant information about the character is already covered in that article and in List of characters in the Alien vs. Predator series. --IllaZilla (talk) 03:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I felt a redirect, though a simpler solution, was unnecessary because nearly all the articles that link to this one do so only through a template (Template:Alien), therefore it would be easy to eliminate these links if the article was deleted. Basically the article was split off from Alien vs. Predator (film) when it never should have been, so I thought deletion rather than redirection was the better option. --IllaZilla (talk) 03:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was speedily deleted by Jc37 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (G11: Blatant advertising) at 03:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC). cab (talk) 03:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The artists formally known as vince[edit]

The artists formally known as vince (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I can't seem find any reliable references for this organization to verify the information in it, or to establish notability. There is this, but I'm not sure if they're talking about the same group. Plus, they don't look reliable. Weakly do I nominate this article, and would withdraw if I could find any reliable sources. Wakanda's Black Panther!/ 03:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Consensus is that these lists are redundant to List of Avatar: The Last Airbender characters, which provides an appropriate level of coverage in view of the lack of secondary sources about the characters at issue.  Sandstein  07:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of Avatar: The Last Airbender major secondary characters[edit]

List of Avatar: The Last Airbender major secondary characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Let's put it this way: There has been many mentions of the usefulness of this article, and whether or not it should exist, so I figured nominating it for deletion would attract some attention, since deletion is basically what these discussions are about. Here is the problem: This is an article that devotes three or more paragraphs to secondary characters in a TV Show, some of which have only appeared once or twice. These characters are already described in List of Avatar: The Last Airbender characters, and do not deserve pages upon pages of useless information about them. In addition, this is literally the ONLY "major secondary characters" article in existence. Every other TV show article has one list of characters and sometimes separate articles for the main characters. The list is non-notable, is completely in-universe, and is sure to have a little bit of POV in there too. Parent5446 (t n e l) 03:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating:

List of Avatar: The Last Airbender secondary recurring characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
  • I am afraid the time has come that the numerous Avatar articles condense into only a few. The reason is because a lot of the information is useless. In fact, when it comes to characters, most television series only have one article for characters, while Avatar has three. The only articles that other shows have that Avatar does not are the episode articles, and that is because other shows have published production information for each episode, where Avatar does not. If the show's creators had some more interviews and gave us some more info, then we might be able to expand. For now, though, we must cleanup the excess articles and get rid of the pages of useless plot summaries and speculation. Parent5446 (t n e l) 11:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just so you know, OTHERCRAPDOESN'TEXIST is not the rationale for deletion, it is just a point I made (if it seems otherwise, I apologize). The rationale for deletion is that most of the information does not comply with WP:PLOT or WP:WAF, two very important policies for this article. Parent5446 (t n e l) 20:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, but for that statement from WP:Lists to apply, it has to be, as you said, "discriminate". This article pages upon pages of indiscriminate character summaries. There is a point when the summary is not put on this article, but then it is just dumped onto the other article I nominated. In addition, I would think that WP:PLOT would take precedence over WP:Lists (WP:PLOT is a policy and WP:Lists is a guideline). This article has almost no secondary sources at all (let alone reliable). If you could find me good, informational secondary reliable sources that can significantly change this article from plot summary to out-of-universe, be my guest. But since there very few sources that are out there for even the protagonists of this TV Series, I highly doubt you will get very far. Parent5446 (t n e l) 20:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is discriminate in the sense that it is a list on certain kinds of characters from a specific franchise. As for plot, well, that's just a matter of adding additional sources to balance things out, but not a reason for deletion. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 21:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • So you are telling me that if there are no secondary reliable sources for an article, then we should keep it anyway. Parent5446 (t n e l) 02:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I doubt there's no magazines that don't have articles that discuss these characters. Check through here, but also look at video game and anime publications. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 15:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, if you consider sites like avatar-manga.com or absoluteanime.com reliable sources, then you have something. Unfortunately, I highly doubt those could be considered reliable. Parent5446 (t n e l) 18:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I previously trusted you enough to believe that you read articles before you voted on their deletion. --Kizor 09:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I say it was harsh, but necessary. In-depth discussion of it would be irrelevant to the topic at hand, though, so drop me a line of my talk page if you want to do so. --Kizor 12:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, I would be pretty much ready to bang my head on a wall if somebody used WP:FICT as a source. Hopefully consensus will be established soon and AfDs like these can pass smoother. Parent5446 (t n e l) 02:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • But you do not get the point. It is made clear in WP:PLOT and WP:V that an article MUST have reliable third-party sources. The characters in this article do not have these sources. In fact, not even the main characters have that many sourcing. If the creators had more interviews where they discussed these characters, then there would be sources, but there are not. This whole article is literally plot summaries. Parent5446 (t n e l) 11:55, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, here's my comment: First off, it is not entirely true that they are just plot summaries. It is also possible to at least start rectifying the whole no third party sources thing. There are a few interviews that come to mind. But I suppose an even more thorough trimming is in order until the decision to delete the page is probably made. I started it but never finished. Got busy, I guess. Some examples of possible third party sources that could be used are for at least some stuff relating to the Major Secondary Characters (but more the Main Characters and show, I'll admit) would be:

[47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] Not sure if this counts for much, if at all, but that's what a small amount of digging found me. I say that if this page is deleted, then a small amount of detail should be added on the character list page such as: "Long Feng was the head of Ba Sing Se's Dai Li force. He frequently antagonized the group during their stay in Ba Sing Se by preventing them from speaking to the king or rescuing Appa, as well as killing Jet. He eventually makes a deal with Azula that causes the take over of Ba Sing Se and at this point surrenders to her and loses control of the Dai Li." Not as short as I would like, but better than the current page. Any thoughts? SkepticBanner (talk) 17:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • First off, the last four sources are from ASN, which has been deemed unreliable. The 3rd link has one mention on the cabbage merchant, but it is short. I did not have time to look fully over the sixth link, but I think there are only a few mentions of any secondary characters. As for the rest: nothing. Unless I missed something, in total there are only two sources from the links you gave, one containing only a mention of one secondary character and the other only might contain information useful for the article. As you can see, any attempts to find sources are in vain. There are no secondary sources. I spent months looking for sources for the Aang article. Even though Aang was a primary protagonist, the article still did not have enough info to have a stable structure. (If you look, the article is a bit on the short side.) When you move from protagonist of the show to secondary characters that appear in five episodes at most, there is literally absolutely nothing. And I do not exaggerate. I will even put it in bold and italics: There are NO SECONDARY RELIABLE SOURCES that could expand this article to a decent size WITHOUT filling it with useless plot summaries.Sorry if that seems uncivil, but there really is nothing. If somebody could prove me wrong, please do. But I highly doubt anybody will find anything. Parent5446 (t n e l) 20:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, and I do agree that small descriptions of each character should be added to the main list. I think that was how it was originally until these articles were created. Parent5446 (t n e l) 20:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even though I agree with you, it would be good if you supplied a reason (even a simple "per above" would be better than nothing). Parent5446 (t n e l) 20:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Everything you said is true EXCEPT the "citations are valid sources" part. All of the citations are valid, but they are not considered all-purpose reliable sources since they are not secondary reliable sources. Since there are no outside sources, the article does not comply with WP:V, WP:PLOT, WP:N, and possibly WP:NOR (WP:SYNTH specifically). Parent5446 (t n e l) 02:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I just gave up with arguing for ASN. I have heard argument like: "Its a fansite", "Since it does not respect US copyright, how could it be considered reliable", etc. Personally, what I think they are trying to say is that the source fails WP:V in the following way: It says "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." But there is a footnote that says, "The word "source", as used in Wikipedia, has three related meanings: the piece of work itself, the creator of the work, and the publisher of the work. All three affect reliability." What I think they are trying to argue is that there has been nothing to establish the creator and publisher's reliability, and therefore the source itself is unreliable. Personally, I sort of agree. ASN has not been known to be reliable because they have not proven so (there is no reason for them to be reliable, they are a fansite, etc.). In fact, the owners of the website do not even give use their full names. We know very little, if anything at all, about the people who create and publish the site, and that is why the source is not considered reliable. Take a reliable source as an example, such as the NY Times. We know exactly who the creator and publisher of the work is and that they have both been known to be reliable, as well as knowing the material itself to be reliable (being a newspaper and all). Do you see where I am going with this? Parent5446 (t n e l) 02:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I'm pretty much positive this doesn't matter, does it make a difference that the creators recommended it in the Nick magazine? Yes, I do see where you are going with this. Also, the NY times has become less and less reliable in my eyes because of it being blatantly wrong in some stuff. SkepticBanner (talk) 02:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you can get a source of where the creators recommended it, maybe we could consider it. As for the NY Times, I have noticed that too. Of course, I was just using it as an example. Parent5446 (t n e l) 11:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is anybody even evaluating the article. There are no sources for any of the information on the page other than the show. The only possibility other than deletion is to merge it into the main list. Parent5446 (t n e l) 11:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Parent5446, I found where the site is endorsed: [58]. Is it my imagination or is nobody actually discussing the deletion anymore? My argument rests above. If I have anything new to add, I might get around to doing so. SkepticBanner (talk) 01:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am afraid users will still have their buts and ifs about this source either way. Don't concern youself though. There is not much on ASN for this article or even the main Avatar article itself. Parent5446 (t n e l) 03:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was speedily deleted per A7 by Ohnoitsjamie. asenine say what? 06:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Adam Tritt[edit]

Adam Tritt (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Doesn't appear to meet the notability guidelines for creative professionals. Polly (Parrot) 02:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Creative professional is the category in which Mr. Tritt does qualify, refereence the duely noted and listed critical acclaim in the article as it currently exists. Unless you intend to hide behind an interpretation of the definition of the word 'significant.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.10.137.232 (talk)


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The result was delete.  Sandstein  07:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nottingham University Revival Gospel Choir[edit]

Nottingham University Revival Gospel Choir (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No evidence for encyclopedic notability (see Wikipedia:Notability (music)). Congratulations on receiving the "Bronze SU STARS award", but it has to be pointed out that it shares this honor with more than 140 other student societies at the same university. High on a tree (talk) 02:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Delete --JForget 01:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of most popular given names for twins in the United States[edit]

List of most popular given names for twins in the United States (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Is this really notable? It's just basically a clone of this page, just written slightly differently: http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/twins.html. If somebody really wants to see this information, they can just go to the original source rather than look at a reproduction of it on Wikipedia.

Plus, it's just not encyclopedic. Save-Me-Oprah(talk) 02:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete.  Sandstein  07:22, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1090 Official (song)[edit]

1090 Official (song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Does not meet Wikipedia's guidelines of notability. Fléêťflämẽ U-T-C 02:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete.  Sandstein  21:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nahte[edit]

Nahte (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable. ZimZalaBim talk 01:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete.  Sandstein  07:21, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Flopsweat[edit]

Flopsweat (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article belongs in a dictionary, not on WP Ecoleetage (talk) 01:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was keep. The article was significantly improved beginning on 17:37, 12 May 2008; the earlier "delete" opinions would seem to no longer apply.  Sandstein  07:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

True Scotsman[edit]

True Scotsman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Nonsense, original research, an essay. You call it. My speedy deletion tag was removed. Corvus cornixtalk 01:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK now this is my first article so may I be forgiven for being a little over protctive? The fact that so many google hits lead to 'No True Scotsman Fallacy' was what prompted me to create this article because as a Scot, the usage I am much more familiar with is the the one I've written about. Most editors seem to be saying OR, that's fair enough, if I can't get some decent references into it, I will not object to it's deletion. Re:Nonsense; I can't see how this applies; I've read the criteria for deletion:patent nonsense, and unless the quality of my writing is WAY below what I think, this criteria is being mis-appliedJmackaerospace (talk) 11:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:N It needs reliable sources. To avoid deletion, add some in.Bridies (talk) 12:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The "No true Scotsman" fallacy has, in fact, nothing to do with "true Scotsmen". It's simply a way of redefining criteria to include and exclude what the speaker wants to. JIP | Talk 19:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment A couple of sources have been added.Bridies (talk) 18:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment subbed the article with links, cleanup and delisting among other wkfying things. Now adding tag requesting in-text citations if anyone wants to follow up. Does it need a "hang on" tag? A Scottish culture or military culture cat? Julia Rossi (talk) 02:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
PS added cats and "intext citations needed" tag. Within the delete box there's something about deciding to "keep" -- is this the case? Julia Rossi (talk) 03:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Commment I will create intext references as soon as I'm home from work and I teach myself how. There may be some parts that cannot be backed up by reliable sources, although as an uberGoogler I can say that there are plenty of 'weak' and context based sources out there, which are of course, not acceptable here, but I did make sure that that the phrase was out there in that context before I made the article. Anything I can't properly back up, I'll remove.Jmackaerospace (talk) 11:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC) ps. I keep forgetting to sign comments, chalk it up to excitementJmackaerospace (talk) 11:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - whenever someone asks me if I am a true Scotsman, I ask them if they are a true pervert... By the way, the popular culture section never mentioned Carry On up the Khyber - what's with that? Scotland's moved beyond this stage in the past decade. Our culture is not just there as the butt of vulgar and thread worn crappy jokes.-- MacRusgail (talk) 18:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Can't believe I'd forgotton Khyber; although there is no mention of the term 'true scotsman' in the film. On a more serious note, do you think a section on how some object to the question is needed? I've never objected to the question if for no other reason than that it is far better than the minority that let actions speak louder than words.81.131.12.61 (talk) 19:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)and for some reason I'd logged ot when I wrote thatJmackaerospace (talk) 19:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: there seems to be misunderstanding (such as redirecting to the unrelated No True Scotsman article, and not wanting Scotland to look silly) and some snobbery about being ridiculous. I found it helpful to know the history and source of the saying which raised it above ridicule imo. If it has a basis to exist, that's fact, it's well-known, and even being the butt of ridicule is fact -- these validate it imo. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I'm done referencing and citing and all that jazz (unless someone can point out something else that needs doing; I'm too close) from now it should stand on it's own merit.Jmackaerospace (talk) 19:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete.  Sandstein  07:09, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Federal Building, Buffalo[edit]

Federal Building, Buffalo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable office building Ecoleetage (talk) 01:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was weak consensus for keep. Appears to satisfy the letter of WP:BIO. Rividian may be right that the subject may slip into obscurity, but for now it can be kept. --Selket Talk 05:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Amit Singh[edit]

Amit Singh (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The article is about a non notable hopeful politician. GBVrallyCI (talk) 01:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus to delete, default to keep. It's never been made very clear which article this is supposed to be a content fork of. Inappropriate spinouts can be merged back without an AfD.  Sandstein  07:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Faith in the Bahá'í Faith[edit]

Faith in the Bahá'í Faith (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article appears to repeat information in the existing articles relating to Baha'i. Ecoleetage (talk) 01:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not true. The word "faith" is used in two different senses. Borock (talk) 13:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see that Faith already has a section on the Baha'i view which refers readers to this article for more info. Borock (talk) 15:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As I stated above, I think the article is a WP:content fork for Bahá'í Faith which already deals with the subject to a substantial degree. It might be appropriate to extend the Beliefs section of Bahá'í Faith and put some extra material there. But as things stand now, this article appears to be a clear content fork, whose very title is a bit of a tautology. Nsk92 (talk) 18:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The article is clearly not a tautology.
  2. Neither is it a content fork. Article spinouts are normal.
  3. GeoSwan's observations are quite apropos,
  4. as are Soundofmusicals. MARussellPESE (talk) 23:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete.  Sandstein  07:02, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Famous Squares in New Orleans[edit]

Famous Squares in New Orleans (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Even those who subscribe to the notion of laissez les bon temps roulez will have problems with this this highly subjective list. Ecoleetage (talk) 01:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Keep - consensus to keep although the article is currently very poor - Peripitus (Talk) 10:54, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Faculty of Management Studies, BHU[edit]

Faculty of Management Studies, BHU (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article reads like an advertisement; notability is not established in the current text. Ecoleetage (talk) 01:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. ¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 00:25, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tova Traesnaes[edit]

Tova Traesnaes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Not notable enough to deserve her own article. If anything, redirect to Ernest Borgnine. Anthony Rupert (talk) 00:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Tova Borgnine, wife of actor Ernest Borgnine, has created a niche in the beauty industry and gained a following on QVC.[60]
  • Allen Burke, director of cosmetics at QVC ... said sales of Tova Borgnine's Tova fragrance -- now 10 years old -- has surpassed last year's volume. Borgnine has been a steady presence at QVC and its biggest fragrance vendor.Women's Wear Daily
  • Mrs. Borgnine, who built a beauty products business bearing her name into a multimillion-dollar companyNYT
May seem like a cheap sort of fame because it's QVC, but it's fame nonetheless. Also, move to Tova Borgnine, which per Google has a 250:1 advantage in common usage. --Dhartung | Talk 06:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Delete. The references appear trivial for the most part. She was present when the station was converted from over-the-air to online but she is not portrayed as the instigator or planner of that transition. WP:BIO is fairly strict about the requirements for someone in the entertainment business to have an article. EdJohnston (talk) 02:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nicole Sandler[edit]

Nicole Sandler (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Fails WP:BIO. Lacks 3rd party references to significant coverage of this local radio personality. No mention of notable awards or widespread recognition for industry contributions. Appears to be just another local DJ, PD, etc. Rtphokie (talk) 00:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep I don't know how to respond to other people in here but I think this should be kept. A news reporter of 10TV aka WBNS of Columbus, Ohio doesn't have.. any notable awards and widespread recognition, but she is notable by those who watch the news. Some would want to look her up for more information about her. Same with Nicole Sandler. She's not all that famous. Those who listen to her on the radio where she is DJing will know her. Those who are curious and want information would want to go to Wikipedia for information just like many other people do for information and they won't get jack squat. So I request Keep.--Xxhopingtearsxx (talk) 01:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete --JForget 01:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of gangs in saints row[edit]

List of gangs in saints row (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I'm very familiar with the game, and the gangs of the game are themselves non-notable; furthermore, there is very little information on the gangs themselves from primary sources that doesn't amount to basic retelling of the plot, that otherwise cannot be contained within the main articles on the games themselves. The article was PRODed but removed, so this is to formalize the request for removal. MASEM 00:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was speedy deleted as spam.. DGG (talk) 03:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Simplicity Sofas[edit]

Simplicity Sofas (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

WP:SPAM KurtRaschke (talk) 00:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Keep per WP:SNOW --JForget 01:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All Time Greatest Hits (Lynyrd Skynyrd album)[edit]

All Time Greatest Hits (Lynyrd Skynyrd album) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable list of songs. No references and no info about it. Macy (Review me!) 00:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Even with two three perfectly valid reviews cited in the infobox? Ten Pound Hammer and his otters(Broken clamshellsOtter chirps) 03:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to the Discography section, this particular compliation went Platinum... if that can be verified, that seems to put a wrench in that line of reasoning. --Kinu t/c 04:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • If it went platinum I would say keep, but I have a hard time believing a compilation released in 2000 of a 1970s band did so. Looking at Amazon I see different compilations from this band released in 1990, 1998, 1999, 2000 (2 different ones), 2002 (2 different ones), 2003, 2006, and 2007. All interchangable product. But if one of them somehow went platinum and it can be verified, so be it, keep the article. KleenupKrew (talk) 10:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete. I'm somewhat perplexed with some of the arguments regarding policy consensus: WP:PLOT is currently part of WP:NOT, a policy. It seems to be applicable, too, as the article consists entirely of plot summary.  Sandstein  07:00, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nom Anor[edit]

Nom Anor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article asserts no notability through reliable sources, and is an in-universe repetition of the plot section of the New Jedi Order book series articles. It is therefore repetitive and should be deleted. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 23:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, WP:V is not disputed, and needs to be followed. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 03:42, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, and everything that occurs in the books is verifiable by consulting the books. --Pixelface (talk) 04:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fabrictramp (talk) 00:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, you see my contention is that no "fixing" can be done, as there is no real world coverage of this topic. And since there isn't anything here but plot information, it can't be fixed by improvment, only be deletion. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 17:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Major publications on Star Wars just keep coming out and so if anything Star Wars articles can increasingly be fixed by improvement. Only hoaxes, libel, and copy vios need be deleted. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 01:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Delete --JForget 01:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Catholic Magicians' Guild[edit]

Catholic Magicians' Guild (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Appears to be non-notable organization. No luck finding WP:RS, nothing in the article to indicate notability. Previously deleted via PROD, so brought here for discussion. --Kinu t/c 00:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete. Despite the influx of "keep" votes (and I mean 'votes', not '!votes'), the issues raised by the comments supporting deletion--specifically, that there are not a sufficient number of independent sources to confirm notability--are not addressed. Anyone confused about this should have a look through Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. --jonny-mt 04:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Colemak[edit]

Colemak (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article on a new keyboard layout was re-created following a deletion review in which the consensus was "Deletion endorsed; however, article unprotected to permit sourced rewrite." The arguments proposed in the review for re-creation were that if sources could not be found, it should be re-considered for deletion.

Now while at first sight the article appears to cite plenty of sources, out of these, no more than two at most meet Wikipedia's criteria for reliable, secondary sources, and even then coverage is hardly "non-trivial" as Wikipedia's notability criteria require. The only academic study cited is an undergraduate dissertation that has not been peer reviewed; the Caps Off award was an obscure affair run by a private individual that, despite being advertised as a "million dollar" competition, raised less than 200 euros in the end; and inclusion in X11 and Ubuntu seems almost completely undocumented, apart from some comments in various Ubuntu forums and IRC chats. The only other sources cited are the article's own previous deletion debate here on Wikipedia and a blog entry by a Microsoft developer stating that they would not be including Colemak in Windows precisely because it is non-notable. Vquex (talk) 00:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup isn't the issue here -- it's admittedly fairly tidy -- the issue is that the sources don't conform to Wikipedia policy. Vquex (talk) 07:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- *Delete what random gibberish feature ISN'T included in x number of linux distros? Saying "this feature is supported by PurpleShoe Linux" is not useful or notable. Numbers of users is. Miami33139 (talk) 07:42, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't supported just by "PurpleShoe Linux", it is supported by _all_ Linux distributions and _all_ BSDs that come with X.Org (i.e. practically all of them). It's not a feature that needs to downloaded and installed. it's something that comes preinstalled with the core operating system. It's displayed as option every time you install the operating system. Besides Dvorak, it's the only alternative keyboard layout to be included with any mainstream operating system.--201.88.71.199 (talk) 23:32, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How is that supposed to address the issue of insufficient coverage in reliable secondary sources? Vquex (talk) 00:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Windows comes with US-101 layouts for each of dozens of languages it supports. Windows comes with half-a-dozen alternate US layouts, and three versions of Dvorak. The statement, "Besides Dvorak, it's the only alternative keyboard layout to be included with any mainstream operating system." is wrong. Desktop Linux is not a mainstream operating system. An obscure layout on an obscure OS is not notable. Show the sources. Miami33139 (talk) 15:53, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but the number of users is irrelevant. (See WP:BIG). What goes on on the Colemak forums is also irrelevant, as that is a primary source and linking to forums is generally to be avoided anyway. (See WP:EL#AVOID point 10). As for independent research from several sources is concerned, perhaps you could enlighten us to what these sources are so that we can evaluate them? As I said, the paper by David Piepgrass is not suitable as it is a self-publised undergraduate dissertation that has not been published in a peer reviewed journal, and blogs are not suitable either for the same reason. (See WP:SPS).
Now let's get another thing straight. X11. As User:Miami33139 said, a lot of random cruft finds its way into every Linux distro going. The chances are that getting Colemak included in X11 was not all that difficult. Any competent developer could easily submit a patch for it, and provided that it doesn't break anything the chances are that it will be included. I don't know what X11's criteria for inclusion are, but Wikipedia is not X11. The inclusion of Colemak in X11 is officialy undocumented -- I couldn't even find it in the X11 changelogs -- and the only discussion about it anywhere is on forums and IRC chat archives -- see my point re forums above.
My contention still stands, that there is insufficient coverage of Colemak in independent, reliable secondary sources, and since this is the case, it is not possible to construct an article on it that is larger than a stub without violating Wikipedia's policy on no original research. Vquex (talk) 00:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not talking about the CVS repository. I'm talking about the list on the X11 website of what's new. Even if it was listed there it still wouldn't count for anything because the X11 site is an open wiki and wikis don't count for anything in deletion debates (see WP:SPS). The issue at stake is that the sources cited do not meet the Wikipedia verifiability criteria. Nibbling at the edges of the points I have made does not answer anything. I want to see substantial coverage in the press, or in ergonomics/HCI literature, or in other sources that conform to wiki policy, otherwise this article will contain original research. Vquex (talk) 08:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's a technicality, but please note the 'holds relevant Changelog there' fragment. The changelog was commited to CVS repository (and not a wiki) by one of X.org developrs, as the CVS is not writeable to the public. Since the X.org X11 is very modular, keybyard layouts are part of 'xkeyboard-config' package and related changes may not be listed in core X11 servers' changelog. 217.153.136.62 (talk) 09:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, but this still doesn't address my problem. Even if we did accept that that is a reliable secondary source, coverage is trivial. Vquex (talk) 09:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please assume good faith -- I did have another account once upon a time, but I lost the password for it ages ago, and I can assure you that I am not a sock puppet of any of the other "delete" votes. Look, I'm not saying this is an evil abuse of Wikipedia by any means. I'm just asking whether or not the community thinks that the sources are sufficient to warrant inclusion in Wikipedia, or whether it all counts as original research, or even whether there is a consensus in the first place. Perhaps you'd care to comment on that particular question? Vquex (talk) 19:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Where? Vquex (talk) 15:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's the only one I've seen -- it seems to be a duplicate of the only reliable source referenced in the article. Are there any others, that's what I'm asking? Vquex (talk) 21:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It hasn't been established that these meet Wikipedia's criteria for reliable sources, nor has it been established that coverage is significant. Vquex (talk) 21:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was not notable delete --Selket Talk 22:53, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alice Eccles[edit]

Alice Eccles (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non notable the daughter of someone does not infer notability. BigDuncTalk 13:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Keep after significant improvement. GlassCobra 03:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Paulville, Texas[edit]

Paulville, Texas (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The organization's website is down ([63]); this appears to be a non-notable flash in the pan. YixilTesiphon Say helloBe shallow 20:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  1. A bunch of RP supporters get together and decide it would be a good idea to make their own community where the man can't keep them down.
  2. RP blogs and conference calls go out to rally the troops to their noble cause.
  3. Anti-RP blogs start calling them all a bunch of "Paultards".
  4. A handful of independent newspapers catch wind of it and report on the story as an offshoot of Ron Paul's campaign, frequently with tongue planted firmly in cheek.
  5. RP himself actually hear about it, and calls his supporters a bunch of knuckleheads.
  6. The project begins to collapse, total lapsed time? Maybe a month.
In the end, unless the supporters turn on their idol, nothing happens. Do we really want an article on something that didn't happen? Its association with RP was the only reason it made the papers (much to RP's chagrin I'm sure). But, if you really want to play the wiki-lawyer, try WP:NOT#NEWS, WP:MADEUP and WP:MEMORIAL, as this article toes the line on each of them to some extent. Burzmali (talk) 15:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Michael. In response: (1) I would hope my choice for verbosity is well-supported by use of good argument; (2) Please avoid careless characterizations like "the man" and "idol"; (3) Elapsed time is at least 4 months now, including the time getting the supporters together; (4) Whether reporting is an "offshoot" is debatable; (5) your #5 is quite the mischaracterization; (6) your #6 and "something that didn't happen" are more crystal ball reading-- something did happen and was reported widely as such; (7) even if association with Paul were the reason for reportage, the depth of the reportage indicates a topic breakout, not a merge; and (8) your references to other policies are quite bemusing, as the 4-month period and the actual reported activity indicate this is "not (just) news", and "made-up" stuff must meet notability criteria same as anything, and "memorial" is thoroughly inapplicable. But I repeat that your proposed compromise is acceptable if other editors would get on it.
FYI I performed a little WP:OR (for background purposes only, of course) and called Mr. Ebacher on his Whois-reported phone. He explained that all the initial 50 shares have been bought, by 18 shareholders; that some of the shares are available for resale; that the property has in fact been owned in the name of the community since the (apparently March) purchase (as reported); that some expect to begin moving next month, while others are holding the land more speculatively; that in addition to shareholders' meetings, an event where most shareholders can be on-site simultaneously is being considered (note this is current reporting, not future reporting); that surrounding parcels are also for sale; and that information on plans for similar Paulville communities in other states can be had at the forum (which of course I've deliberately not followed). Given that, it would be improper for any indulgence in speculation, as to either success or failure, to have any effect as a deletion argument, per the clear language of WP:ATA#CRYSTAL. I would hope that, unlike about six deletionists, I don't make use of crystal-ball arguments, only of extant reported activity. Since, however, there may well be consensus to change WP:CBALL to apply to this, because there's apparently a widespread misconception that it does apply, then get consensus at its page and come back here and renominate. JJB 18:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you really think anyone will read that rant?? --Ave Caesar (talk) 22:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mountainsarehigh has, as far as I can tell, done almost nothing that isn't Paul-related things, usually in a negative sense, with a very negative tone. --YixilTesiphon Say helloBe shallow 16:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am interested in and have knowledge of Ron Paul related things, which is why I made a comment about a Ron Paul related thing. For the record, I have little interest in commenting on things I am not interested in and/or have little knowledge of. I think that's a positive, not a negative. --18:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mountainsarehigh (talkcontribs)
This sounds like WP:IDONTLIKEIT. As I said above, it's notable (has been covered non-trivially in notable publications), so it deserves to stay. --Pwnage8 (talk) 18:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've read your link, and no, I don't think that sounds at all like what I wrote, nor does it come close to expressing my view on this issue. Thanks for your comments though. --Mountainsarehigh (talk) 00:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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