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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. This is a popular article – before the first version was deleted it was attracting over 2K hits a day – [4]. Such popularity, however, is not part of our inclusion criteria. Indeed, we are wary of internet memes, and some commentators in this discussion have felt that this subject is simply a flash in the pan. The sources in the article are not top drawer – most in the article are local newspapers, and one is a blog, others I have found are online teen magazines; however, the blog is notable, and the sources are reliable (they have editorial control) and are of a significant number. The coverage in the sources is not top class, but is not trivial, and does indicate an awareness among the target audience of a knowledge of the topic. That is, she is written about in reliable sources as a notable person. I paid attention to concerns about BLP issues, however the article is soberly and carefully written, firmly sourced, and avoids any dubious scandal. On a number count, the delete !votes are slightly higher than the keep !votes, though a number of the keeps are better argued, while some delete votes don’t fully support their “not notable” assertions, or are hesitant – suggesting that the article can be reinstated later. The subject is likely to be of passing interest; however, the commentary on the subject will be a lasting record, and it is that commentary that we are collecting and summarising here on Wikipedia. SilkTork ✔Tea time 23:43, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Jenna Rose (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I had submitted this article the first time it went to AfD and it was deleted because the subject fails to meet the notability criteria for a Biography of a Living Person.
The article has since been recreated, with much of the same information, even though nothing else has been published about the subject. The article went to AfD again, but no consensus was reached.
I am submitting it again, because no effort has been made to cite any information in the article, and no more sources on the subject exist. Much of the information is unverifiable through any secondary published sources, and the article's creator even admitted to be associated with the subject.
Unless someone can site all of the information in the article with secondary published sources, rewrite it so it does not sound like an advertisement, and prove that the subject meets the notability guidelines, I feel the article should be deleted until the subject does meet the guidelines. Rogerthat94 (talk) 23:03, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- To User:Rogerthat94: What you may have overlooked, is that notability requires only the existence of suitable independent, reliable sources, not their immediate citation in an article. I politely urge you to withdraw this 3-week-later premature-renomination as being too soon. lack of immediate effort is not a sound deletion reason, nor is a reason to force cleanup of an article determined by others as improvable over time and through normal editing. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 01:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand that there are sources, but they don't give enough information to write an entire article. Perhaps redirecting this page to Rebecca Black - Friday and adding a section on Jenna Rose there would be an appropriate compromise, since most of the coverage seems to be piggybacked off of that. Rogerthat94 (talk) 06:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Shall we also merge William Shatner with Captain Kirk as Kirk is where Shantner has most of his notability? No... because there is information about Shatner and his work that has no place in an article about Kirk. Just so here: there is sourcable information about Jenna Rose that has no place in an article about one of Rebecca Black's works. What does make sense is a wikilink in the Rebecca Black article that leads back to the Jenna Rose article where readers can then learn more about Rose. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 09:03, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Rebecca Black, Captain Kirk, and William Shatner all fit under the notability guidelines, but I feel that Jenna Rose does not. There is some citeable information, but all of the information from reputable publications is only on the Jeans song, which isn't enough coverage to create an entirely separate article, but would fit in with the article about Friday. The notability guidelines have more criteria than just "is the subject of published sources" for a reason. Rogerthat94 (talk) 17:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes... have you read the criteria at WP:ARTIST? The notability SNGs are intended to work in concert with WP:GNG, not in disaharmony, and Jenna Rose DOES meet our inclusion criteria. The point missed that I was trying to clarify is that sourcable biographical information about Jenna Rose and her carrer has no place in some different article about some different topic. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 20:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
- I did not take this to deletion review because there wasn't a flaw with the last debate. There wasn't a consensus so the debate was closed and there was a consensus to delete the article in the first debate. I don't expect the article to be perfected in three weeks, but the fact is nothing is cited and no effort has been made to make it sound less like an advertisement. Rogerthat94 (talk) 06:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Your rationale seems to be that while the AFd three weeks ago did not result in the deletion you wished or work to improve the article, and even with your stating you did not expect perfection in three weeks, it should still be deleted per WP:NOEFFORT. The addressable issues such as tone and sourcing not being addressed would seem a far better reason to be proactive and address them, rather than send to AFD because no one else had done it in 20 days. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 09:03, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- My main concerns are Wikipedia:Notability and a lack of citeable information, as I have described above. Lack of effort is not a main reason for deleting the article. I understand that things take time to improve, but an article can't improve without enough coverage of the subject. Rogerthat94 (talk) 17:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Sources were already found like the one I found last time [5]. Its too soon to have this back at AFD. Also, sources exist, then they don't have to be in the article. You want them there, then do it yourself, don't waste out time here again. Dream Focus 02:57, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Most of the information in the article is unverifiable. I have searched for sources to verify the information, but, aside from some trivial information surrounding her "Jeans" song, none exist. Also, there's no reason to be so hostile. Rogerthat94 (talk) 06:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- With respects, your google-foo seems to be broken. The multiple sources I offered are not "trivial mentions" in that they address the subject and her works directly and in detail, having the subject meet WP:SIGCOV and WP:CREATIVE. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 09:03, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There isn't enough information in those sources to write an entire article. That's why I suggested the redirect to Rebecca Black's song. Rogerthat94 (talk) 17:41, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry. I've actually read through the many available sources, and have to strongly disagree. There is LOTS available with which to improve the article. Please pardon me I do not respond further to your own arguments, but it's always better to fix the problem than it is to throw out something that can benefit the project with just a little work Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 20:44, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: This nomination is super lame. Don't renominate so soon after a no consensus close unless you have a better rationale. Best to wait a few months, as no harm is really being caused by waiting a more reasonable period of time to see if a consensus will develop on a subsequent AfD. If the nominator wants to improve wikipedia per his profession on his user page, there are 8 million better possible uses of his time. Check out Category:BLP articles lacking sources and get to work.--Milowent • talkblp-r 04:54, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There is harm. Allowing articles that are not referenced, such as this one, to be posted here hurts the reliability of Wikipedia. In addition, it sets up the possibility for slanderous information to be posted, especially in the case of a biography of a living person. I understand that this articles creator personally knows the subject and nothing about this article seems slanderous, but the notability guidelines are very strict for a reason. I understand you don't agree with me, but please try to be civil about it. Rogerthat94 (talk) 06:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The solution is to be a proactive editor and correct a perceived problem. It's never helpful to demand deletion simply because someone else had not the work that one could easily do oneself. And a worry of what someone might or might not do to this or any article in the future is also not a reason to delete. Containing sources never prevents malicious edits or vandalism... prevention is through editors watching articles for such and correcting them IF they occur. We do not delete an article because it "might" be edited maliciously in the future. The best answer to WP:NOEFFORT is WP:SOFIXIT. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 09:03, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not suggesting deletion because nobody has taken the time to add information from published woks to the article. I'm suggesting deletion because there isn't enough information in published works to create an article. If there was enough significant coverage to write and article, I would contribute, but all of the publications are just the same information about the "Jeans" song, which isn't enough information to write a whole article. I used the vandalism example only as an example of why keeping uncited information is harmful.
- I agree with you that there is some good information on the subject from some extremely reputable published secondary sources, but it isn't enough information to write an entirely separate article. That's why redirecting to Rebecca Black - Friday seems like the best solution. In the future, if more information is published on the subject or she falls under a second notability criteria, I would agree that a separate article would be appropriate. Rogerthat94 (talk) 17:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Rogertthat24, get to work, there are 50,000 BLPs that need sourcing more than this one single article, despite your fetish about it.--Milowent • talkblp-r 19:00, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. The listed (though not inline cited) sources do have sufficient content which some rewriting can address quite handily. At this point, more sources would be helpful, but the extant ones are completely satisfactory. Deletion is not the solution to a need for moving sources from general to inline. This repeated, and in my opinion, badgering nomination is premature, and, given the prior non-consensus at 2nd, is unseemly. The nominator is continuing to argue and gainsay every single comment (very much not expected or usual nominator practice) - methinks the nominator doth protest too much. Going forward, I suggest picking up a contributing editor's eyeshade and improving the article or putting down the stick and walking away. All the effort wasted on striving for deletion could have been spent on actual improvements. There is no consensus forming for deletion. Please see that. --Lexein (talk) 19:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Complete agreement. The available sources offer a wealth of information with which to improve this BLP. I rarely make a "keep" statement without also editing an article to address perceived issues, and though involved in addressing other articles during this AFD, I have just neutralized the article's tone and added additional sources to the references section in preparation for more work.[6] The nominator's telling me on my talk page that WP:N is "only a guideline" as if it could be ignored when considering if something is worthy of inclusion, and his repeated and well intended protestations aside, my next step in recommended regular editing will be to use the multiple available significant sources as inline citations. Shall we look to see if the pond has fish? Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 20:19, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I completely agree with the badgering observations. Sorry about the comments getting out of hand. Thank you User:MichaelQSchmidt for adding those citations. I have added some citation needed tags, and if someone would be willing to find sources for those, that would make a really good argument for keeping this article.
- I understand there isn't a consensus, but this whole discussion is just people repeating "There are articles on her." If you actually read Wikipedia:MUSIC past the first bullet point, it's fairly clear that the subject falls far short of the guidelines. I never said WP:N could be ignored, I called it a guideline, because that's what it is. It goes past "Is the subject of published works" because each case is different. As it was mentioned in the first discussion, most of the articles posted on her were a result of Rebecca Black's song.
- It is debatable whether or not Patch meets Wikipedia's criteria or not, because it's basically a local-scale Huffington Post [7]. In addition, that section doesn't seem like a good measure of notability because of the amount of individuals published there. There are, however, some articles from highly notable sources published on her right after Rebecca Black's song, so again, redirection seems like a fair resolution. It is nice for a girl and her family to have a place to promote herself, but that's not Wikipedia's purpose. In responding to this, think about which solution would help keep content on Wikipedia both encyclopedic and relevant. There are a lot of people that would be interested in seeing mention of "My Jeans," but Jenna Rose really hasn't done anything else notable.
- Bottom Line - We could redirect this article to Rebecca Black - Friday, and include only the information from highly notable sources, that there would be an interest in. Or, we could keep this article and have to keep some uncited information and some information from Patch, despite the subject having done nothing else notable. Rogerthat94 (talk) 04:23, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Your "bottom line" has been dealt with before: A redirect to a nonrelated article does not improve the encyclopedia nor aid a reader's understanding of the specific topic being discussed. And just what is your fascination with Rebecca Black? While you are always welcome to expand and source her article, it is illogical to suggest something that would degrade her article. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 06:16, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- That no one agrees with your premature renomination does not mean there is no consesnsus... quite the opposite. And when a number of editors state that multiple independent secondary sources speaking directly toward the artist and her work have her meet notability criteria, THAT is how consensus is created, per guideline and policy. Your not agreeing with other's interpretation of guideline and policy do not make them incorrect in their evaluations of sources or guideline. Please... read WP:CONSENSUS to better undertstand just what it is and how it is created. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 06:16, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- And toward WP:MUSICBIO of which you tried to mis-instruct me on my talk page,[8] you are misinterpreting it to be exclusionary, and it is not. You indicate that editors haveto consider inapplicable "bullet" sub-points, when that section itself instructs that they need not do so. The bulleted section to which you refer specifically begins "A musician or ensemble... may be notable if it meets at least one of the following criteria:". It does not say all. It does not say some. It simply states "at least one". In a nutshell, if even one "bullet point" is applicable, editors need not consider others that may not apply. If she missed on the first or third or last, then editors may check the others to see if one of them might be met. Meeting more than one is NOT required. AND, most cogently, the VERY first bullet, the one she meets, follows the GNG in it stating "Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable and are independent from the musician or ensemble itself." As the sources available for the Jenna Rose article are multiple, non-trivial, published, secondary, and independent, MUSICBIO bullet one shows her as notable enough for Wikipedia. And if MUSICBIO bullet one is met, there is no requirement that bullets two through seven need also be. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 06:16, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Patch.org is a legitimate local news umbrella organization, see [9]. For the life of me I can't figure out why you care so much about this article, except that people born in 1994 probably care much more (one way or the other) about Jenna Rose than those born a bit earlier!--Milowent • talkblp-r 04:31, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep The level of citation is far improved since its first AfD nomination.--Labattblueboy (talk) 09:16, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I did not intentionally mislead anybody or misrepresent anything. I understand that she meets the basic criteria, but because most of the coverage was sensationalized and there was already a consensus to delete this article, I feel it's important to note that none of the other WP:MUSIC criteria have been met. Patch.com is not an illegitimate source, but it's not nearly as reputable as some of the organizations that published the articles published on the "Jeans" song, which was sensationalized by the Rebecca Black song. I have not suggested the redirect for personal reasons or to degrade either Rebecca Black or Jenna Rose, but rather because I feel, until Jenna Rose establishes more notability, an article on her doesn't have a place on Wikipedia. Her "Jeans" song's popularity is a direct result of Rebecca Black - Friday, so I feel a section on her, that this page would redirect to, would have a perfect place there.
- I understand that every other position in this discussion has been to keep the article, but everybody is just giving the same exact reason. Removing articles about minor sensational and unnotable subjects not only prevents unverifiable and useless information from being posted, but it is a deterrent to people posting articles that advertise for subjects they have personal relations to. I hope to get some of the participants from the previous two discussions, who did make comments about how sensational the coverage was to participate before this discussion is closed.
- Is a little girl's performances in local theater productions and talent competitions or slowly-growing musical "career" really notable enough for Wikipedia? No. Is there some information about her "Jeans" song that really does have a place here? Yes, but it would be better served in Rebecca Black - Friday. If she does something truly notable, by all means create an article on her. But at this current time, I just don't feel like a separate article on her is appropriate. Perhaps an editor would like to keep a userfied version of the current article, to create an article on her in the future, if she does something notable. Rogerthat94 (talk) 15:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm glad that you grant she meets the basic inclusion criteria. A new issue is your denigrating her beginnings, as almost without exception, every entertainer extant had beginnings in non-notable productions, and in a properly balanced and comprehensive BLP, those beginnings are expected to be written of and sourced. While those beginnings do not need assert the notability, their inclusion benefits a reader's understanding of the subject. We do not judge an entertainer's notability based upon "only" their non-notable beginnings. We look beyond the biographical background and instead at the multiple and sourcable projects that bring them coverage of the notability assertions that meet the "basic criteria".
- AND, to repeat again, A redirect to a nonrelated article does not improve the encyclopedia nor aid a reader's understanding of the specific topic being discussed. Rebecca and Jenna might one day inhabit a category "Viral video stars", as placing them together in a category under that context might make sense due to the wide media comparisons. But being categorized similarly does not mean it makes sense to place her information in an article about someone else.
- As this AFD was begun only 20 days after the 2nd was closed, I would not be opposed to the closer's consideration Incubation for a short while, as it would be in a nonwiki'd location out of article space, and in the place that encourages collaborative efforts in improving the article. Userfication generally does not get the hoped for input and assitance. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 00:37, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Every artist has their beginnings, but separate articles on them aren't created until they do something notable. Jenna Rose has not reached this point yet. If she does in the future, of course include information about her beginnings in non-notable productions. At there current time though, a separate article on her is not appropriate. I agree with your incubation suggestion. That way, we can bring this article back to the mainspace if she clearly meets the notability criteria in the future. Rogerthat94 (talk) 21:44, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It's going to snow - I get it. I'm not a fan of this article. This particular "flash in the pan" was more of a dim glow somewhere beside the pan. The coverage has a strong hometown news tilt and the "semi-viral" bit is almost painful to read. Yeah, it's recentism. Sit on it for a year or so. Work on toning up our notability requirements to clearly reject such "local-kid-gets-mocked-a-little-bit-online" notability. After that, renominate and I'll !vote to kill it twice to make sure it's dead. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:29, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I edited my comment above, to prevent the comments from further getting out of hand. Bottom Line: I completely see where you're coming from, but I feel like it's a better idea to redirect this article now and recreate it if the subject becomes notable in the future. It just seems too much like an advertisement to me, even with the revisions and citations. Rogerthat94 (talk) 15:59, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep and LOL Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jenna Rose (2nd nomination), is the nominator has problem with this person or what? Ald™ ¬_¬™ 16:20, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh for goodness sake - leave it be for a couple of months and then nominate it again, at which point it will be clear there isn't any reliable continuing coverage; it's fairly clear there isn't anything you can do against the Crap Article Rescue Squadron in this case. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:15, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I think we all know what will happen again in a few months time if it is nominated, a certain fun-lovin bloc of users will scream bloody murder about "OMG REPEATED NOMINATIONS!!!"
- You reckon? Blimey, talk about assuming bad faith ... oh ... wait Black Kite (t) (c) 23:45, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- And is calling six respected admins and 383 contributing editors, whose goal is to improve weak articles in order to improve the project, the "Crap Article Rescue Squadron" to be considered a proper example of an "assumption of good faith"??? Pardon, but ouch! While some very few of the 389 might be editors of which you disapprove, the vast majority of that 389 improve weak articles and improve the project through their efforts. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 07:30, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- As you well know, I have no problem with the ARS when they are used properly - indeed I regard them as a force for good at that point - as opposed to a collection of bloc voting for crap articles, like this. I have this problem, you see, it's called saying exactly what I think as opposed to a large number of users who say exactly what they think other users want to hear. Black Kite (t) (c)
- As MQS said, referring to the "Crap Article Rescue Squadron" in the same line of conversation as your complaint about assuming bad faith = WP:POTKETTLE. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:24, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- See above comment. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:00, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- While I chuckle at your unfortunate use of hyperbole, and thus avoid feeling insulted by the insinuation, could you share where 339 editors have block-voted here? Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 09:39, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - Trivial, flash-in-the-pan homebrew starlet gets a little bit of "here's another one" overcharge in the wake of the Rebecca Black meme. Editors fundamentally misinterpret the "presumed" aspect of WP:GNG. I am Jack's Complete Lack of Surprise. Tarc (talk) 23:40, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per wp:BLP1E] she was a flash-in-the-pan. Lets not make this any worse then it has to be. --Guerillero | My Talk 05:20, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Sorry, and while respecting your having the opinion of removing this topic from article space, BLPIE does not apply as she has coverage for multiple items. Such a miaapplication is akin to requesting the removal any artist known "only" for being a musical artist (and THAT list would be unseemly long). Multiple released songs receiving coverage in multiple sources does not equate to being BLP1E.
- Futile Delete !vote - The hometown news coverage of this not-quite viral would-be Rebecca Black convinces me that she attracted a little bit of attention in her local area for a brief period of time. I've seen non-notable school-teacher-of-the-year-good-Samaritan-neighborhood-mom types with similar coverage. Not notable at present. - SummerPhD (talk) 05:31, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Sufficient sources exist to indicate it meets GNG.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:23, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, and Delete in case it wasn't clear earlier. Never have I seen such a tawdry collection of sources cobbled together and claimed to meet GNG. Black Kite (t) (c) 06:26, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Never? Are you currently suffering from amnesia?--Milowent • talkblp-r 13:07, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I have small children and I'm aged over 35. I'm allowed the occasional failure of long-term memory. Black Kite (t) (c) 22:57, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed, I believe its a coping mechanism. Having a 2nd child requires you to forget the sleeplessness of the 1st in most cases :-) --Milowent • talkblp-r 23:01, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem comes with the 3rd that wakes the other two up at random. At that point you'll agree with anything, even if it's "You'd really like to come to our party tomorrow, we're making authentic Kazakhstani food". Black Kite (t) (c) 23:09, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete fails WP:BLP1E. Stuartyeates (talk) 08:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC) Incubate change of vote at suggestion of MichaelQSchmidt (on my talk page) for compromise. Stuartyeates (talk) 06:34, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Sorry, and while respecting your thoughts toward removing this topic from article space, BLPIE does not apply as she has coverage for multiple items. Such a miaapplication is akin to requesting the removal any artist known "only" for being a musical artist (and THAT list would be unseemly long). Multiple released songs receiving coverage in multiple sources does not equate to being BLP1E. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 00:04, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Not notable - YET. Reinstate when she's more notable, like beyond New York State. She has admitted on youtube that she has not performed outside of the metropolitan NY area. 207.237.248.85 (talk) 18:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete, not notable, no prejustice against recreation if in the future she meets notability. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:24, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - non-notable; closest she ever came to the requisite substantial coverage was for her little bitty BLP1E adventure.--Orange Mike | Talk 21:25, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete I'm not sure if this vote is really policy based or not, but I think we should have a higher standard of inclusion for minors who are known only for dubious accomplishments than we would typically apply in one of these debates. Mark Arsten (talk) 22:11, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep: Misogyny such as "flash-in-the-pan homebrew starlet" and subjective judgments of whether the subject's contributions to the human race are worthwhile are beside the point. Most everything that "notable" humans have done is useless, but they are notable due to the fact that other humans took notice of them. In 1829, some joker liked to jump off things, and died when he jumped when drunk; he is remembered forever. In 1864, another joker carried around a sack of flour for months after a dumb bet, got so ill from it that he eventually died, and is also remembered forever. Jenna Rose has received attention because she sang a silly song about jeans. Subject meets WP:N (albeit not with flying colors), so there is no reason to delete.--Milowent • talkblp-r 22:35, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I have agreed with "keep", but damnit, Milowent, neither Reuel Colt Gridley nor Sam Patch seem to have died for the reasons you describe. Not good, misrepresenting such details in an earnest discussion of article merits. Through clenched teeth, Lexein (talk) 03:10, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Please explain how you feel she meets WP:N. (The personal attack, "Misogyny", is both unacceptable and inexplicable.) - SummerPhD (talk) 22:52, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Just basic crossing-the WP:GNG line. "topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject"; "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material". If she wasn't famous for such a frivolous reason, we probably wouldn't have this AFD.--Milowent • talkblp-r 22:56, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- So since you failed to respond when called out for the accusation of misogyny, can we assume that was just a bit of trolling? As for WP:GNG, you do recall what that 2nd "g" stands for, right? That means that we can set it aside if need be to maintain a bit of sanity around here. Sanity is what would carry the day here if, just once, the ARS cronies could stop bean-counting how many reliable sources one finds and could start evaluating just why an encyclopedia needs an article on a minor who is being talked about by adults for being a bad singer. Tarc (talk) 00:59, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- That was calling me out? I though it was calling you out, but I know you pride yourself on your snarky comments like "flash-in-the-pan homebrew starlet". I often chuckle at your snark myself, even when you are saying that articles should "die in a fire" and are saying awful things about ARS. But this isn't about "ARS cronies", its about subjective evaluations that Jenna Rose is not worthy of having an article despite meeting GNG. COI editors have already made clear that she wants the article, so the paternalistic concerns are apparently not of concern to her. Ultimately, Jenna Rose is not especially notable, but I think she's sufficiently notable to keep, and I see no benefit from deletion. You disagree here. In some cases you agree with me to keep (which is phenomenal because you rarely !vote to keep anything), and in some cases I don't oppose deletion.--Milowent • talkblp-r 03:48, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- My point is that, subjectively, why should Sam Patch have an article? Or Mary Toft? They were Jenna Roses in their day. The beauty of Wikipedia is the beauty of Herodotus, we can have such articles and they don't interfere with our in-depth serious articles. We can have such articles and they add detail to the largest compendium of human knowledge ever assembled. When we remove some of that knowledge, we should ask why its a good idea. Are you better off if all knowledge of Sam Patch is obliterated?--Milowent • talkblp-r 03:58, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Sam Patch has something that Jenna Rose does not... (though it seems like lots of Jenna's have arisen, at least in romance novels.) Drmies (talk) 18:04, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. As much as I'd like to hang with MQS and Milowent, I can't. Not notable, meager references, an inflated article. Drmies (talk) 03:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Brutus. :-)--Milowent • talkblp-r 03:58, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, Milowent, with friends like me... Drmies (talk) 04:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - Per coverage in Newsday (4 references in article) & LI Herald source in article. Ongoing news coverage. Northamerica1000(talk) 23:29, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep based on the coverage. Despite the young age of the subject, I don't think it is a question of BLP. The basic test of whether our article can do any harm is not met--given that she and her family are apparently foolish enough to want to create further attention to her, as shown by her continuing after the first video. DGG ( talk ) 23:41, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - although it can certainly be created if more notability is gained. Yaksar (let's chat) 07:09, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete References are near exclusively local, and fail to demonstrate notability in a wide sense. Mark Arsten has a point. Can we not exercise just a little bit of discretion in cases where a non-notable pre-teen girl makes an arse of herself and has to live with a WP article on it for the rest of her life? To the extent that the GNG is met, and it would only be barely met, we must remember that the GNG only creates a presumption of notability. That presumption should be set aside in the circumstances.--Mkativerata (talk) 20:05, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- But it would seem to me that the presemption has not been rebutted, and opinions toward presumption seem to be that such presumption can simply be ignored if one chooses to not accept it nor actually rebut it. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 02:27, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Whether or not the presumption has been "rebutted" is your opinion. In any case, I never said it had been rebutted, only that it should be set aside. Which are two different things. --Mkativerata (talk) 03:11, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Before we get too paternalistic as a justification for deletion, keep in mind that someone associated with the subject has indicated she approves of having an article. She has also received international coverage, but the local news sources are the most thorough.--Milowent • talkblp-r 05:14, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Is it really fair to use what a COI unregistered user says in you argument? While I agree that the article's creator probably did create this, as he/she said, to promote the subject, anybody could claim this. David Goodman made the best point, but she seems to have stopped after the third song. The international article is really piggybacked off of Rebecca Black. It, as well as the Newsday source, also existed when the delete consensus was reached the first time. Rogerthat94 (talk) 06:02, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, is it really fair to rely on anything you say considering your peculiar dislike of Jenna Rose to the exclusion of the other 3,750,000 articles on wikipedia? Every edit you've done in the past few months is about Jenna Rose. Jenna Rose has been in the news just this month due to her new release.[10].--Milowent • talkblp-r 14:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Normally I'd ignore a comment like this, but my integrity is being questioned and I don't appreciate it. Milowent's claim about my contribution history is untrue. I have no dislike of Jenna Rose, I just feel this article should be deleted per Wikipedia policy. What about her new song is notable enough for Wikipedia? There are plenty of non-notable artists being covered in local papers. Rogerthat94 (talk) 21:23, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Rogerthat94 Sorry, since you first nom'd Jenna Rose 18 May 2011, you've made 182 edits as a registered user, and 76 of them have involved Jenna Rose. Since this last nom 7 Oct 2011 until this moment, you've made 66 edits, 54 of which have involved Jenna Rose, or 82%. That's rather a lot about a single issue.
- Milowent - let's accumulate those international sources, please, in a new section
here in Talk at Talk:Jenna Rose. --Lexein (talk) 22:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Lexein, I would be happy to compile the international reporting, but as this AfD has been open 10 days and its an obvious 'no consensus' situation (despite subjective distate for the subject), hopefully an admin can close this first.--Milowent • talkblp-r 22:24, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- (amended above) Let's accumulate them at Talk:Jenna Rose then. --Lexein (talk) 22:27, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't claim to be an active editor, and you can definitely manipulate the numbers against me, but my point is that it's unfair to say "Every edit you've done in the past few months is about Jenna Rose." I try to improve articles whenever I see problems. Either way, this argument doesn't belong in this discussion. Continue it on my talk page if you have to. I shouldn't have even responded to the attack in the first place. Rogerthat94 (talk) 23:47, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Facepalm A) my point was, sadly, missed. B) I'm not at all fond of extending discussions to multiple locations. --Lexein (talk) 06:26, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: A couple of suggestions for improvements to the article, if it's kept (and as much as I disagree with it, that seems to be the way the wind is blowing): Stuartyeates (talk) 23:20, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- (a) the Filmography table needs to do a better job of conveying the extent of coverage and the relative notability of the work;
- (b) the Singles table needs to include more information (views / likes / whatever);
- (c) more categories need to be added;
- (d) the career section should be called performance or something since career (according to the OED) relates to professional life or employment which doesn't doesn't seem to apply here (I'm not seeing an assertion that she's doing this professionally);
- (e) if the page is called Jenna Rose then the subject should not be called Swerdlow throughout the article, that's just plain confusing.
- Delete - Borderline advertisement + all references in the same time zone + recentism = non-notable. →Στc. 06:57, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Pardon, but as tone was addressable through regular editing, it's no more an "advertisement" than any other article informing a reader about a topic. Had the "local" coverage only been to some backwater small town, a case for coverage being "limited" might have been reasonable, but initial coverage was in a newspaper with the 11th-highest circulation in the United States, and the highest among suburban newspapers... so not exactly a neighborhood gazette... and as initial coverage began in Long Island (which with a population of 7.5 million, is the most populated island in any U.S. state or territory and also the 17th most populous island in the world), one has to consider if "local" to nearly 8 million people is a dismissable demographic... and as has been shown above, her coverage is now going international. And toward recentism, and with respects... this is 2011 and she first received public recognition in 2009 for her "contributions to the performing arts community". Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 19:23, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep I see nothing wrong with the article – and a previous nomination, which occurred very recently, failed to reach consensus. Also, there is significant coverage in reliable third party resources, such as Newsday. --Bryce Wilson | talk 13:59, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was this shall, indeed, be deleted. The Bushranger One ping only 04:02, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Lia Marie Johnson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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This article has been speedily deleted 5 times since March 2010, including yesterday. It was Proposed for deletion but this was opposed. I see nothing to indicate that she meets the notability criteria (and especially the criteria for entertainers), and cannot find significant coverage of her at reliable sources which are independent of the subject. PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 22:07, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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This SHALL NOT BE Deleted!
REALLY?
You have no idea of how many people follow her facebook page!
Lala,
|=ANTAG£JAPANR0X (talk) 22:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It shall not be deleted? At the moment, we have no way of knowing whether it shall be deleted or not, as the community have about 7 days to discuss this. However, having a bit over 40,000 "likes" of her facebook page does not equate in and of itself as an indicator of notability. The top 100 liked facebook pages get more than twice that number of new "likes" per day! On Wikipedia, we need some indication that she meets the notability criteria, which your statement does not give. We also need some signficant coverage at multiple reliable sources which are independent of the subject - which your statement has not provided. PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 02:10, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete and salt. No attempt made to provide evidence of notability. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 22:44, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
ArabianKnight24 (talk) 02:12, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
I understand that this article has been speedily deleted 5 times. That is quite impressive. However, I (and a few other people) are trying to make an article that really details the notability of Lia Marie Johnson. She is quite "famous", with 40,82 "likes" on Facebook , 14, 782 followers on Twitter, 100,783 subscribers on YouTube, and 19529 friends on YouTube. All these numbers are growing. As I stated before, Lia is an actress who has done a lot of credited work. She appeared a movie that was shown during the EyeGore awards in L.A. She is a favorite on Kids React, a wildly popular series on YouTube. We, Lia's fan-base, are really trying to make a good article on a good person. IF you allow us, we will make this article notable.
ArabianKnight24 (talk) 02:12, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- While we welcome enthusiastic editors, Facebook/Twitter/YouTube etc are not considered reliable sources. Has she received significant coverage in reliable sources (for example, national newspapers/magazines)? I searched for such sources, but did not find any. With reference to the EyeGore awards - firstly, I notice there is no article about the awards on Wikipedia, and although the short film Monster in my Swimming Pool won 2011 "Hollywood Horror Nights" Short Film Competition, Johnson herself did not win an award - she appeared on stage with the director to accept the award, but I see no indication that she has won any awards, or that this award meets the criteria for notable awards on Wikipedia. PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 02:30, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your reply (and friendliness :D ). This article http://www.neontommy.com/news/2011/09/stars-screams-and-scares-2011-eyegore-awards mentions Lia at the very end. Like you said, she didn't receive an award herself. And like you also mentioned, she went upstage with the director. To me, it looks like she is definitely heading towards a great career. I understand if she is not "notable" enough for an article yet. However, at some point she will deserve one :) I hope this article doesn't end up getting deleted! Thanks! ArabianKnight24 (talk) 02:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. While the subject of the article is possibly quite talented and facing a great career, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, and we have to go by existing coverage in reliable sources that attest to notability. Sadly, such coverage is still lacking today. --Lambiam 09:24, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What Rubbish![edit]
Lia is In A popular series!!
She has performed a song with a real musicican.
She has made a song made "Karma", coming out in music stores soon. It will be also possible for download!
I am not British!!!
Look at This Search, It says About 533,000 results.That is enough for a girl that is 14!!
Here [1]
Here [2]
And, here [3]
AND OF COURSE[4]
Research[edit]
|=ANTAG£JAPANR0X (talk) 22:55, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- All good and well, but we require significant coverage in reliable sources. The links you have dredged up only provide shallow coverage in unreliable sources. --Lambiam 12:56, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- But iTunes is a place with REAL shows and REAL music.
FantageJapanRox (talk • contribs) 20:05, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Anyone with 20 items in their catalog can sign up with iTunes and start selling their music videos there. And if you have only one video, you can pay an iTunes music aggregator to do it for you. There is no editorial control. It is just like self-published books. This means that the iTunes store is not a reliable independent source, period. --Lambiam 22:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Alright guys. I have to admit, a good point is being made here. While Ms.Johnson is indeed facing a great career, currently she isn't notable enough for a Wikipedia article. I am confused because some actors/actresses who have appeared in one movie have their own article, but whatever. Although Lia does deserve an article, it isn't the right time. I think we should wait a little bit until she is more well known. I mean, just because my sister stars in several commercials, it doesn't mean I'm going to write an article about her. I'm still *neutral* on the subject. ArabianKnight24 (talk) 00:14, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: There is a generally a disconnect between mid-level youtube popularity and press coverage -- much of this is because youtube popularity is mostly youth-driven, so things like FRED, Ray William Johnson, and The Annoying Orange can be huge, yet all had difficulty in obtaining wikipedia articles because the press is slow to take notice. Lia is currently well below the popularity view-wise and subscriber-wise of those youtubers at the time they finally "stuck" here. Lia could be making major money off her videos before the press notices, so meeting WP:N is going to be difficult for her.--Milowent • talkblp-r 04:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Fails WP:ENT to provide significant contribution with notable productions. Fails WP:MUSICBIO as it says - yet to be professional singer and a single yet to be released! Having followers in blogs and social medias does not make one notable, yet when the time comes and her carrier develops (yet to come) as her supporters state, it should easily meet with the criteria (or reliable sorces are quoted). PF (talk) 19:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete as per above. MB (talk) 22:13, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot believe I am saying this. But DELETE. I tried making a good article on Lia, but obviously no matter what it will be deleted because she isn't notable enough. The time will come when she will be famous enough for a deserving article. Thank you guys! Honestly, I learned a lot from this.ArabianKnight24 (talk) 04:13, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete/salt/move on there is little hope that she is notable --Guerillero | My Talk 05:14, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I understand. How do I made a word bold on this? ArabianKnight24 (talk) 06:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per |=ANTAG£JAPANR0X. Salt per |=ANTAG£JAPANR0X as well, based on their behavior, unless we want to meet here tomorrow. LoveUxoxo (talk) 06:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Salting rarely works for people like this, because you have Lia Marie Johnson (Youtube), Lia Marie Johnson (singer), Lia Marie Johnson (actress), etc., etc., that will be created, if its really true that this has been deleted multiple times already. The lack of even one substantive news article on her is unlikely to last long however. Any decent PR-minded teen can whip up some local news coverage. If she can't or won't, she'll stay deleted.--Milowent • talkblp-r 20:17, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete No major roles, no independent sources. Edward321 (talk) 00:08, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Alright guys, I have a proposal. How about, we keep this article for a month or so. If we (meaning anyone) can find the info that you (people who want to delete this) need, the article stays. However, if we fail, this article may be deleted. However, it is highly likely that someone will make another article. So I am honestly not sure why you gusy keep trying to delete it hahah. Also, I know for a fact that as some point Lia will be notable enough for an article. ArabianKnight24 (talk) 04:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Other people agree with you ArabianKnight24, that someday she might be notable. It's only the start of her "career". But the article should come after her notablity, not before it. You agreed right, that right now she isn't notable enough? LoveUxoxo (talk) 05:47, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
THIS SHOULD NOT BE DELETED! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.11.223.0 (talk) 12:50, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I agree that Lia Marie Johnson isn't "notable" enough for a Wikipedia page, because of all the rules. I understand all your points about how the article should appear after Lia's notability rises, how Wiki isn't a crystal ball, etc. So (and as much as I love Lia MArie Johnson in a non-creepy way), I guess the article will be deleted. I know the time will come when this article will be allowed haha. And Lia, if you are reading this (She definitely noticed this conversation), I'm sorry haha (: So... *Delete ArabianKnight24 (talk) 03:16, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You did a good job trying to show the other side ArabianKnight24, I'm sure she noticed. She definitely owes you a ride in that limo! LoveUxoxo (talk) 03:39, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 19:13, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can Emed[edit]
- Can Emed (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Promotion of a person of limited note. Off2riorob (talk) 14:24, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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Considering this artist has little information on the google and the internet, This article contains brief and trustable references about this artist. (Such verifiable references as; ntvmsnbc.com etc.). And this artist (Can Emed) is not have that fame as other great artists such as Picasso. And so the less number (9 Reference)of references maybe view as "balanced". And the article contains "not long" and "not exaggerated" informations about Can Emed. The article also contains balanced, verifiable informations that can be verified on the internet by an international-artists-organisations such as; UNESCO/AIAP/UPSD such is also a reference. The article contains 3 clean photograph, one is taken on the artist's exhibition-reception. And so, there is not an argument here such as this artist (Can Emed) is really living person. And so, I cannot clearly understand why this page is on "deletion process" I'm university degree class knowledge about especially art, history of art and contemporary art. Also I am the same person here. My purpose is for creating this article (Can Emed) about my self is trusting your independence. If any person who has a remarkable proffession on his/her work and knowned by internationally, can be freely opened an article about himself/herself. İf ---İf he uses balanced view, reliable sources, and verifiable references SUCH AS I DID on "Can Emed article". I dig on google and find nearly 9 trutable-reference on the internet. --If this is not view as; "resourcable", then there is not argument can stays here on the feet.. Becouse I still not understand the argument of the deletion process in "turned-on".
If any wise web-master here, ıf any wise editor here, PLEASE I NEED YOUR HELP, NOT DELETION WITHOUT AN EXPLANATION !
I NEED TECHNİCAL HELP IMMEDIATELY................
I still trust your independence, and international wisdom.
Sincerely Yours;
User; Johnaemeth (Can Emed) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnaemeth (talk • contribs) 20:50, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
mhahahah!!! :D "promotion of a person with limited note" it is interesting you know ? :D ..Becouse 1 weeks ago, I'm informed about "cleaning your long-notes". And now, it turns; "promotion of a person with limited note" mhahahahah!! ..Go ahead, FREELY, AND BRAVELY SAY; "I DO NOT WANT YOUR PAGE ON WIKI; ARTİST CAN EMED" ..I'm mature person dude you know, last week I broke up my ex-girl friend, and I am not in the mood now. Please be an adult, "I STILL DO NOT SEE THE DELETION ARGUMENT OF THAT PAGE" :pP :D ;)
Sinrerely yours; " Off2riorob " :D I'm still laughing for good (reaaly) :D — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnaemeth (talk • contribs) (UTC)
Unfortunately I will continue to seek the informations for "Deletion-Nomination".. If ı cannot understand the specific-reasons and the specific-arguments of why the process still continues... Then I cannot solve the matter for good.. Yes?
So, unfortunately I will continue to posting, becuse, simply I cannot understand... One weeks ago, there is another process that this article "needs to be cleared".. and one-weeks after there is deletion-process which I informed that the article is contains "short-information"... İs this an Irony or I is it a coincidence ??????????
I hope you can easily understand my reason for my questions to the wiki-team ............. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnaemeth (talk • contribs) 08:57, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: As Wikipedia:Unreferenced BLP Rescue did its work, I noticed that is one of the most common categories of self-created BLPs, and showing notability is often quite difficult -- because sourcing simply doesn't exist. For Mr. Emed, we have absolutely no google news hits (not even bare mentions), which is always the first bad sign. Then, since he is Turkish, I know I need to search the the archives of the top turkish newspapers (because they won't come up in Google). There is one 2002 bare mention of Emed participating in a young artists show [30] in Hürriyet. This is confirmed by the single bare mention of him in the 2003 "Turkish Art Yearbook" which is his only Google book hit [31].
- I ask Mr. Emed if he can let us know of any other independent sources -- newspapers, magazine, etc. - to show that he meets Wikipedia's notability standards. Mr. Emed, please read Wikipedia:Notability to understand what I am talking about. You can read the same basic rule in Turkish at tr:Vikipedi:Kayda değerlik, that is how the Turkish wikipedia applies the same concept. As things look now, however, it appears this article is heading to deletion.--Milowent • talkblp-r 11:50, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The reference I found was to him simply being part of an exhibition, unfortunately, among a list of other artists. It verifies his existence as an artist in Turkey, I suppose, but no more.--Milowent • talkblp-r 19:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per nom...Modernist (talk) 16:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per nom. ---RepublicanJacobiteTheFortyFive 19:41, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - as explained by the original nominator and everybody else associated with this article save the subject himself, who should read WP:UPANDCOMING. It's a shame, really, I kinda like what I've seen of his work and his influences. --Orangemike (talk) 17:12, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Broadly, Keep !voters fall into one of two camps: (1) the other side in this ethnic/territorial dispute get their flag, so we should too, and (2) meatpuppets. Thanks to Melikov Memmed and Saygi1 for putting some considered effort and thought into their replies, but none of these comments addressed the arguments to delete, which are grounded in policy and have a clear consensus behind them. causa sui (talk) 16:55, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Flag of South Azerbaijan[edit]
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- Flag of South Azerbaijan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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per WP:Partisanship, WP:RS, and WP:OR. Aliwiki (talk) 11:25, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. For the reason given above.--Aliwiki (talk) 11:44, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. "South Azerbaijan" itself is an irredentist fringe theory, basically a fantasy concept. No state of official entity by that name exists or has ever existed. Such Wikipedia articles should deal with real states or former states, not fantasies and myths. Therefore, this article is basically a product of nationalist WP:SOAPing, which cites a bunch of blogs, and unreliable non-academic sources, violating WP:RS and WP:OR. Notable Azeri scholar Shireen T. Hunter, of Georgetown University, address this issue in "Iran and Transcuacsia in the Post-Soviet Era", writing in page 106 that "After the Ottoman empire had collapsed, both the Communists and, later, the Azerbaijani nationalists developed the myth of one Azerbaijan divided into a southern and northern part, comparing it to what happened to the two Germanics and to Korea, and using this myth to justify irredentist claims toward Iranian territory.". Kurdo777 (talk) 12:53, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Azerbaijan-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:08, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. Takabeg (talk) 06:46, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Before finding the article Irredentism, I thought "irredentist" might have something to do with teeth. Edison (talk) 16:23, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- "Delete":Wikipedia is not a place for advertizing (WP:NOTADVERTISING). Just look at the following gallery:
-
name of the file :Which flag is the flag of South Azerbaijan (?!)
-
name of the file :South Azerbaijan red flag
-
name of the file :Flag of South Azerbaijan
Are we spending our time here to find out something that no two people agree about it ? "South Azerbaijan" itself is an unknown entity , then the flag of that strange creature is more unknown than that !! --Alborz Fallah (talk) 16:48, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There is not a real Kurdistan too, why don't you suggest to deletion of Kurdistan's flag?--Orartu (talk) 15:44, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
P.S : Again , for showing that all so-called flags are inventions of a handful of our editors in Wikipedia , try this : (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
No news , No book , No Scholar source and No free image out of our Wikipedia !
Hallelujah , we made a flag ! --Alborz Fallah (talk) 17:04, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment 1:(UNPO) , Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization , has nothing to do with UN (United Nations) . That is an organization that every person who pays the membership can be a member . About your other explanation , (Az.Republic in north and modern Iranian Azerbaijan in South ) , that would be correct if you write it as "Modern Az.Republic (representing historical Arran and Shirvan ) and historical Azerbaijan" .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:46, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment 2 In support of this flag to be self-made and baseless , I searched the history of the file in Wikimedia Commons , the uploading editor has no other edit but only this few flags of Turkic language groups in every country that they live , and the uploading person find out to be a Page that is :test, spamming , vandalism or bot created page . This shows the file is baseless . Besides that , the interesting point is that the user:Melikov Memmed , here has changed the source of the picture that user:Tarkan uploaded ! I want to ask is it possible to change the source of a file that someone else had uploaded ? Or is it a change to deceive the readers about this file having a source ?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 06:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- @Melikov Memmed; It's better that you have a look to the links you've posted. The source of the flag in crwflags.com is Gamoh. The question here is that who has given the guardianship of Iranian Azerbaijan to this organization?! UNPO has nothing to do with UN; and here is Wikipedia, not UN to register your country. Moreover, we can extract error from line by line of the UNPO article. As an example, line 1 consider Iranian Azerbaijan as occupied territory which is in contrast to the international descriptions ([37]), and there is no other recognized international organization which has ever made such funny claim about Iranian Azerbaijan. As a conclusion, there is no reliable source to consider those flags for Iranian Azerbaijan, and anything exists is just self-made materials.--Aliwiki (talk) 12:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. Pure fringe article. Not enough facts and reliable sources. It must deleted or moved to another relevant article about Irredentism or irredentist movements. Xooon (talk) 06:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. Pure advertising, plus imagination. In fact 08:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. False and misleading material; there is no such land or flag by that name and has never been in the entire History. These flags similar to other advertising sketches risen from designer’s fantasy, non-existent in real world. The sources are not reliable; Blogs , UNPO, etc. do not meet the requirement of WP:RS.Cyrusace (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:07, 8 October 2011 (UTC).[reply]
- For you there is no such land by the name of South Azerbaijan but Google search finds 461000 results.--Melikov Memmed (talk) 09:34, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Pure Fallacy: This statement has taken the naivety of groundless justification to extreme. This is Wikipedia, not a playground for expression of unlogical comments to support baseless material. As a matter of fact, there are more search results in Google for other mythical entities such as ‘Jersey Devil’, ‘Bigfoot’ or ‘Lochness Monster’, etc. than for South Azerbaijan. Even so, the number of Google search results cannot be used as reason for justifying the reality of the subject in search. Cyrusace (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC).[reply]
Orartu (talk) 10:59, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- We don't discuss whether flags are dangerous or not :))) Takabeg (talk) 13:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There is not a real Kurdistan too, why don't you suggest to deletion of Kurdistan's flag?--Orartu (talk) 15:44, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Define "real", please. The existance of a region is not at stake here. Existiance of the flag is. Kurdistan's flag is verifiable as existing. This beastie is not. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep See Mahmoud Ahmadinejad under South Azerbaijan Flag, no one is imagining anything, this is a real yet unofficial flag. There is a serious debate going on in south Azerbaijani community. Article may be weak, but it'll be improved, there is no need for deletion. --Khutuck (talk) 11:06, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't know that picture of a president and a flag is so important . Then what if I build a page about the new flag of Az republic that the colors are up side down comparing the previous colors ?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The picture you linked shows current Azerbaijan flag, and irrelevant to our iscussion. Do not be absurd and try this: Take an Azerbaijan flag, turn its back, take it upside down. It looks like the one you have linked, intead of Blue-Red-Green, it'll look like Green-Red-Blue, but it is the same flag. here is an example.Khutuck (talk) 13:34, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Yap , that is a good answer , I think the European union said the same thing : turn it around!: Avropa :ÜZR İSTƏMƏZ
- The flag in that picture is not of South Azerbaijan, but the reverse of the flag of the Republic of Azerbaijan. Takabeg (talk) 13:46, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- @User:Khutuck, that's a reverse image of the flag of Republic of Azerbaijan, look at the flag right above it, it's the reverse flag of Singapore. For some reason, some of the flags in that section of the image, are reversed. Kurdo777 (talk) 21:27, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - I agree with Khutuck. Emperyan-message/ileti 13:20, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note to closing admin: User:Emperyan was most likely brought here through WP:CANVASSING. This user had not edited any Wikipedia pages in 8 days, before showing up on this page simply to "vote", without presenting any arguments. Kurdo777 (talk) 21:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep -- Supermæn (talk) 15:48, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note to closing admin: User:Supermæn was most likely brought here through WP:CANVASSING. This user had not edited pages in two weeks, before showing up on this page simply to "vote", without presenting any arguments. The user also has less than 50 edits in total[38], and no prior history on Deletion discussion. Kurdo777 (talk) 21:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - I agree with Melikov Memmed.--Ebrahimi-amir (talk) 17:10, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note to closing admin: User:Ebrahimi-amir is currently under investigation as a possible sock-puppet of User:Orartu [39] who also voted this page above. Kurdo777 (talk) 21:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note to closing admin and readers:This claim refused and investigation declined with one of checkusers, You can see here Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Orartu--Orartu (talk) 11:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note to readers: Kurdo777 was under investigation 6 days ago, but no one mentioned this as a Note to closing admin. User is only under investigation, not declared a sock-puppet yet. By pointing this out in an irrelevant discusion, Kurdo777 is completely ignoring WP:AGF policy, and even the concept of presumption of innocence. Stop trying to fork views in your side, and use real arguments for the deletion of this article, not propaganda technics. --Khutuck (talk) 13:09, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep.I completely agree with Melikov Memmed.--E THP (talk) 08:59, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note to closing admin: User:E THP was most likely brought here through WP:CANVASSING. This user had been mostly inactive with half a dozen edits since April and has no prior history on deletion discussion. Furthermore, he has less than 50 edits in total. [40] He, as the others above, were clearly asked by someone to come here take part in a "vote". Kurdo777 (talk) 21:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep--AnBinava (talk) 20:34, 8 October 2011 (UTC) — AnBinava (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- Note to closing admin: User:AnBinava was most likely brought here through WP:CANVASSING. This user just signed up hours ago, in order to "vote" on this page. The edit here was this user's one and only edit [41], which further proves that someone has been canvassing for votes on this page, outside of Wikipedia. Kurdo777 (talk) 21:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Per Orartu. --Goktr001 (talk) 22:09, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note to closing admin: User:Goktr001 was most likely brought here through WP:CANVASSING. The user had been inactive for almost one month, before showing up here to "vote" as his first edit since Sep 14th. Further more, he has less than 50 edits in total, and no prior history on deletion discussion pages. [42] Kurdo777 (talk) 22:24, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - the existaince of the country is not an issue here one way or another. The existiance of the flag is. No WP:RS that it can be verified as existing. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep I did a quick search, and found multiple videos of this oversize South Azerbaijan flag being used during demonstrations in Iran/South Azerbaijan [43], [44] and [45], as well as here during an event and film screening abroad [46]. So it doesn't look like a "fantasy concept" when used in the open on the very territory of Iran by the very people from Iran that proclaimed this flag. If we delete this flag, then we need to delete flags and articles about all self-proclaimed entities. Let's be consistent. --Saygi1 (talk) 00:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Please read WP:RS before making such comments. Youtube is not considered as reliable source. The links you posted don't prove anything. Anyone can upload such videos.--Aliwiki (talk) 13:25, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Please note that while YouTube video's are in general acceptable for Wikipedia articles as evidence, in this case I have provided YouTube videos as evidence not in an article, but in a discussion, in a talk page. Therefore, your point does not apply. More importantly, it's a legitimate source that shows the flag of South Azerbaijan in action in Iran and abroad. That's enough evidence to prove that the article about, and the flag of South Azerbaijan, deserve to stay. --Saygi1 (talk) 23:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Flag of South Azerbaijan" -Llc 0
"Flags of South Azerbaijan" -Llc 0
"Flag of Southern Azerbaijan" -Llc 0
"Flags of Southern Azerbaijan" -Llc 0
But it's obvious that there are flags of Azeris in Iran. (See: p. 1766). But these flags are not commonly accepted as a "Flag of South Azerbaijan" by Iranian Azerbaijanis. The title such as "Flag(s) of South Azerbaijan", "Flag(s) of Southern Azerbaijan" are not acceptable. We can change the title. For exampel, (List of) Azerbaijani flags in Iran, (list of) Flags used by Azerbaijani nationalist in Iran etc... And we have to prove that these flags are proposed as the common flag of "Iranian Azerbaijan", "Azerbaijanis in Iran" etc. with reliable sources. If these flags are nothing but flags of organizations, we have to remove them from list. I think that we can add flags of Azadistan, Azerbaijan People's Government etc. Takabeg (talk) 08:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Thank you for your comment . There is no doubt that there are many organizations and groups that perhaps most of them have flags . If that organizations are noticeable enough , each of them can have an article in Wikipedia . But the problem is when so many organizations are so non important that no separate Wikipedia article is dedicated solely to them , that is wrong to represent a list of them in an article under the title Flags used by Azerbaijani nationalists in Iran . Only one group has an article in Wikipedia , and it can represent it's flag in the article of it's own , but that flag can't be represented as the "flag of Iranian Azerbaijan (or so called South Azerbaijan)" . According to WP:NRVE , Notability requires verifiable evidence : where is the evidence that shows this flag is more notable than the other flags , and all the other flags are notable enough to be represented in a Wikipedia article . This photo or that photo showing a group of people with a flag can't be viewed as a reliable source : who are the people in the photo ? Is it verifiable that isn't it a photo shop picture ? Are the mass of people in the picture agree with a person with a flag in his hand ? and many questions like this ...--Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete.there is no South Azerbaijan!!! Shahin (talk) 08:34, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment What about WP:NPOV and WP:CIVIL? What does 'no' mean? Please give an description of 'no' and admins please be careful! WP:CANVASSING is similar with WP:NPOV and WP:CIVIL. --88.226.213.234 (talk) 12:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- South Azerbaijan is a fringe theory. Moreover, there is no reliable source for the flag. The article is original research based on non-reliable and self-made materials.Shahin (talk) 16:31, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a random web-page, or a place for proposed fictional flags of fictional imaginary states. This is not encyclopedic at all. Nokhodi (talk) 01:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: that's the point, as an encyclopedia, it needs to be consistent. If flags of other non-states are accepted in Wikipedia, then certainly so should this one, as it's actively used by South Azerbaijanis wherever they live. --Saygi1 (talk) 23:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete The James Mihanan source also mentions Talyshistan and Lezginistan flags. I will be starting a new arbcomm or looking forward to setup a new committe of expert admins in Wikipedia given the massive voting above. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 08:10, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. 'See Flag of Kurdistan', for example, why one is different than the other? And I am not sure why this article is being repeatedly nominated for deletion, when the deletion was clearly denied. Atabəy (talk) 00:55, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- We can find reliable sources for "Flag of Kurdistan". But we cannot find it for "Flag of South Azerbaijan", "Flag of Southern Azerbaijan". I think this is reason why this article is being repeatedly nominated for deletion. Takabeg (talk) 01:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There is a sufficiently reliable source. Moreover, there was a de facto Azerbaijani state 66 years ago on this territory, called Azerbaijan People's Government, which merits the article on the flag.Atabəy (talk) 01:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- UNPO is not a UN. It is a paid membership organization with no relaibility. The flag of the Pishevari government is very a different flag than the one on this page, and it is mentioned in its own article. There is no reliable source that the mentioned flag on the page is the "Flag of South Azerbaijan" --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 12:33, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. South Azerbaijanis have exact same rights as Kurds and others and this flag legally and correctly represents them.--NovaSkola (talk) 01:16, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note to closing admin: User:NovaSkola was most likely brought here through WP:CANVASSING, the user had been largely inactive, had no contribution in 10 days, before suddenly showing up here to vote. Kurdo777 (talk) 22:32, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Rename to Flag of the Southern Azerbaijan National Awakening Movement, which is what it is. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- If this article deals with only the flag of the Southern Azerbaijan National Awakening Movement, we'd better merge this article into Southern Azerbaijan National Awakening Movement. Takabeg (talk) 06:24, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Again thank you for your comment , but doesn't that article already has an image ? And what does this article have other than contents of that one to be merged with ? The only purpose of this article is to give WP:WEIGHT to the idea that the separatist movement in Iranian Azerbaijan is so popular and it is not an imaginary concept , but the whole article is nothing than a title plus an image at all . The creating editor only wants the recognition at all : no information about the time of adoption , the real sizes , colors , adopting groups and like so is written on the article and it will never be written there , because whole story is a creative art of a few editors in Wikipedia plus a handful of person in a closed unknown room in unknown place !--Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:45, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. The Kurdish flag is similar as it too has no state nor citizens but if that flag is allowed then so should this Azerbaijani flag. There must be consistency and no double standards. Neftchi (talk) 09:22, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Not Encyclopedic. Arguments like "X is on Wikipedia, so must be Y" or "X people have the same right as Y people" ,... are not acceptable. "Scholarly reference" on the topic is non-existent. Wikipedia should not become what I term as "official back-up of teenager pseudo-intellectual fights on Facebook, YouTube, Forums, ...". Xashaiar (talk) 10:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: that's the point, as an encyclopedia, it needs to be consistent. If flags of other non-states are accepted in Wikipedia, then certainly so should this one, as it's actively used by South Azerbaijanis wherever they live. --Saygi1 (talk) 23:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Important Note to admin: User Orartu has announced in Azeri wikipedia ([47]) about this AFD to collect votes!--131.175.161.14 (talk) 11:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It's obvious that there is a flag named as “Flag of Southern Azerbaijan” but the opponents think that the title is not acceptable, because it not accepted as the flag of whole South Azerbaijan. I think that this is not a reason to delete the article, because even official Flag of Azerbaijan is not accepted as the flag of whole Azerbaijan, Tabriz is the capital of East Azerbaijan, but there the Flag of Azerbaijan is not accepted, because the flag of Azerbaijan means the flag of Azerbaijan Republic. And “Flag of Southern Azerbaijan” means an unofficial flag of unrecognised territory named as Southern Azerbaijan recognized by the UNPO. Here there is no politic grounds, this is a fact. --Melikov Memmed (talk) 12:36, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, UNPO is a paid membership organizaiton and is not reliable organization. Even the flag of Pishevari was different than the one you mentioned. What are your reliable sources that mention this as "Flag of South Azerbaijan". UNPO is not UN and not WP:RS. Please provide your reliable sources. Also there is no "South Azerbaijan" in terms of mono-ethnic concept, as West Azerbaijan has a large Kurdish population, the name Azerbaijan is not an ethnic name (it is a historica Persian name), there are also Assyrians, Armenians, and Tats/Talysh and other people living in East and West Azerbaijan. Did they agree on that flag? So if your only source is UNPO then the articles title at most can be "Flag of South Azerbaijan according to UNPO". But the reliability of UNPO is extremly questionable. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 12:51, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Your argument doesnt make sense, does every Iranian citizen agree with the Iran's new Islamic flag? Very doubtful and yet there it is. If this flag isnt allowed then the Kurdish flag should also be removed for the same reason. Why this double standard against ethnic Azerbaijanis? Neftchi (talk) 16:52, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikipedia works with WP:RS. Where is your WP:RS source that this is the flag of "Southern Azerbaijan". UNPO is not an RS source. So I asked you again to provide [[WP:RS}] source. The Kurdistan flag has tons of WP:RS source. The flag in this page, does not. Also mind WP:SOAPBOX and WP:FORUM. Provide WP:RS sources (not UNPO or a website or two) which mentions such flag. For Kurdistan flag, one can find easily dozens of RS sources. If you think you cannot find dozen of RS sources for Kurdistan flag, then nominate it for deletion. The flag in this article has as much as hits as the Lezgin and Talyshistan flag. That is not enough for Wikipedia to make an article about it. It is simply a flag of Southern Azerbaijan National Awakening Movement. We must follow WP:RS, not nationalistic arguments. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 17:24, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Please also see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:55, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and all of it's controversies are for when there is analogy between two article , but the nature of Iraqi Kurdistan and it's place in the new Iraqi constitution is very different with this case . Anyway the proposed flag of Iranian Kurdistan in UNPO is a different one with Iraqi Kurdistan : that is different with the flag that has an article and this one has no article at all !--Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:27, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Note to closing admin, as one user mentioned please see the canvassing from another wikipedia here: [48]) --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 19:07, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The flag exists as per available reliable sources already mentioned on this page.Ladytimide (talk) 19:33, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems that you haven't follow the discussion. Which reliable source? Can you show us? --Aliwiki (talk) 21:19, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note to closing admin: User:Ladytimide was most likely brought here through WP:CANVASSING, either off-wiki, or based on the public request for keep votes on the Azerbaijani Wikipedia. It should be noted that this user has no prior history on deletion discussions, and had been inactive from Sep 27th until the the day this AfD was created. Kurdo777 (talk) 22:30, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikipedia works with WP:RS. Do you think that Ethnologue is a reliable source? Can you find RS sources for North Azerbaijani language, South Azerbaijani language. A flag of organization is called as "Flag of South Azerbaijan", but what is South Azerbaijani language? --Melikov Memmed (talk) 06:19, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Your argument doesn't make any sense. Read WP:Synthesis and don't synthesis things by yourself. Language and flag are two different things. Languages don't have flags. --Aliwiki (talk) 11:35, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I wanted to say that if Wikipedia works with WP:RS, how without a reliable source here it is created "new language". Double standard for "South Azerbaijani language" and "Flag of South Azerbaijan"? --Melikov Memmed (talk) 12:04, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Why don't you discuss your point of view about Azeri language in corresponding page ? By mentioning it here , the brief logic of your comment is "When article A is using the source that I think is wrong , then the article B should contain the information that have wrong source ( and /or ) no source at all !! --Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:32, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Before me here it is discussed about South Azerbaijan, Talyshistan, Lezgistan, Flag of Talyshistan, Flag of Lezgistan, so and I discussed my point of view about "South Azerbaijani language". Why you don’t think that those are wrong, too? Double standard?--Melikov Memmed (talk) 13:01, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- At least comparing a flag with invention of a flag . But a language with a flag ....--Alborz Fallah (talk) 13:26, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- To Melikov, I do not see yet a flag of Talyshistan and Lezginistan article. The other discussions you made are irrelavant as you can talk about lack of RS in other articles. Please provide WP:RS references that the flag in this page is the flag of "South Azerbaijan". UNPO is not UN, nor RS,..it is a paid membership organization. So the article's title should be "Flag of Sanam".. but it can just be merged with SANAM [49]. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 14:51, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Maybe you do not see yet a flag of Talyshistan, but the article about Talysh-Mughan Autonomous Republic with the flag of Talysh-Mughan Autonomous Republic had created from February 2006, though during its short life there was no flag, flags were drawn later only for propaganda. You do not see yet a flag of Lezginistan because there is such flag. I know that UNPO is not UN. At article it is clearly, that UNPO is an international organization of stateless nation, at the UNPO, Southern Azerbaijan is represented by SANAM and a flag representing South Azerbaijan was also recognized by the UNPO. I don’t cite UNPO as RS, it is quite normal that citing UNPO here we had affirmed who is the member of UNPO. When citing UNPO I will affirm that Tabriz is capital of Southern Azerbaijan, then you can raise an objection that UNPO is not RS. I think that at the article there is not political grounds, the article is weak, but there is no need for deletion, except nationalistic views and I hope that admin will take it into account.--Melikov Memmed (talk) 04:58, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Again that has nothing to do with this article. If you think the flag in Talysh-Mughan Autonomous Republic is not valid, go discuss it in that article! What does it have to do with this article? UNPO is a paid membership organization. It has no WP:RS reliability in Wikipedia and has been discussed before. What you failed to bring is WP:RS] sources that this is a flag of "South Azerbaijan". It does not equate with the Kurdish case, because there are many WP:RS sources with the flag of Kurdistan. If you do not agree with this fact, then also go discuss it in the flag of Kurdistan wikipedia page. The flag in this page is the flag of SANAM and a member of UNPO. But you needs multiple WP:RS sources (like the flag of Kurdistan) to even establish such an article in Wikipedia. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 11:41, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- you seem to switch your position after what user Melikov Memmed said - your previous threat about Talyshistan, etc., was not a reasonable argument. --Saygi1 (talk) 23:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete for this edition per Wikipedia:Verifiability & Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion. Takabeg (talk) 07:28, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. Pure advertising--Penom (talk) 15:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Please elaborate how's that? Multiple videos and printed materials show that it's as real as any flag, and is used actively even today, even in Iran, as well as abroad. --Saygi1 (talk) 23:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- @ Saygi; Videos and self-made materials don't prove anything. Formation of a country is the job of UN, not Youtube or weblogs.--Aliwiki (talk) 22:17, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Khodabandeh14.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:35, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: that's not really a position. Per Khodabandeh14 you mean he asked you to come and vote here? --Saygi1 (talk) 23:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- User Saygi1, the interpretation of other users' comment is not your job. His answer is clear. If no, have a look to above and see similar comments of your friends who voted keep per user ...'. --Aliwiki (talk) 22:17, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete or selectively merge to article(s), if any, about the movement(s) associated with these flags, such as Southern Azerbaijan National Awakening Movement.The majority of opinions above, on both sides, use arguments to avoid in AfDs or arguments that are irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion, such as whether or not a state or territory called "South Azerbaijan" exists or ought to exist. The policy-based problem with this article is the lack of substantial coverage about the flag(s) it describes, causing the topic to fail WP:V#Notability and WP:GNG. We would first need a decent article about the secessionist movement (if any) itself before we can consider writing a separate article about its flag(s). Sandstein 13:37, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Merge (selectively if necessary) to South Azerbaijan. There are virtually no independent sources that discuss these 4 or 5 competing flags. According to WP:GNG, this stub is inappropriate because it's based mainly on WP:PRIMARY sources. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 00:46, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. There's clear consensus, with which i ageee. If this list is not unencyclopedic, nothing is. I do agree with a comment below that that main article on the sport is written in non-neutral terms, almost promotional. I may give it some copyediting. But a fork like this isn't the way to deal with it. DGG ( talk ) 22:47, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Paragliding fatalities and injurious incidents[edit]
NOTE: Article was moved to Paragliding fatalities Joefaust (talk) 21:00, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: Article and AfD started at the title in the header; they have since been moved to the title in the note above and data below. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:04, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Paragliding fatalities (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This article is essentially a non-neutral WP:POVFORK of Paragliding. WP:UNDUE says we shouldn't give a particular issue more prominence than it deserves; here, we're giving prominence to paragliding deaths by giving it a whole article. Currently on Talk:Paragliding involved editors are trying to work out how to include summary information on all paragliding fatalities, and that's all we should include. We do not have articles like this on other sports. I know, WP:OTHERSTUFF isn't a good argument, but it helps show why this is a POV-fork and not just an intent to add more information to Wikipedia. Finally, one could also argue that trying to have a massive list of every fatality goes beyond our purpose as described in WP:NOTEVERYTHING. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:38, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Likewise, the Wikipedia:Deletion policy under the section "Reasons for deletion" suggests "Any other content not suitable for an encyclopedia". Wikipedia links "not suitable" to Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not which lists "Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files" which includes "Mere collections of external links or Internet directories.". I would suggest that's exactly what this page is; a list of external links. 88xxxx (talk) 01:00, 7 October 2011 (UTC)— 88xxxx (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- I find it strange that those in favour of keeping this page seem to be making a general statement that I simply see as untrue. They refer to a page full of links to news articles (which I believe is not allowed in itself) as "data", which it is not. 88xxxx (talk) 07:47, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Consider seeing the citations as citations where the tally is verifiable; such is WP urged. The tally is the data; the citation goes to best known verifiable realm. Joefaust (talk) 00:33, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. The Bushranger One ping only 02:54, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- What please is an "A3 case"; I could not find what that means. Thanks. Joefaust (talk) 04:16, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, but change name to just "Paragliding fatalities". I do not see POVFORK. What POV is being forked? Above, the "forking" is mentioned, but not what the "fork" is. It seems that paragliding is beginning to have some yet incomplete encyclopedic presentation in WP, but has not yet simply presented the fatalities in the activity. WP does have articles that show the fatalities of defined activities. What good does it do to neglect the simple knowledge of the raw facts of fatalities in an activity?
WP has, just for a small sample:
Imagine WP giving a rich give of Paragliding, but neglects to give the basic data of the fatalities in the activity; that would seem to be a monstrous irresponsible scene. Each fatality raw data point could hold for later researchers in society a kernel of information that might save lives; teachers, instructors, scientific statistical analysts, participant pilots, societal agents, equipment manufacturers, materials scientists, inventors, designers, etc. could benefit from the initial data to produce their interpretations fitting their needs; they would thank WP for being a provider of knowledge that could be studied to get more information. Notice that the intended article is not an interpreter of the fatalities, does not analyze as investigator, does not have a space for judging good, bad, or otherwise. Just tallies and best source of the tally marks. Whereas WP has articles where complete fatalities are recorded of defined activities, even those announcement could be error, as new information might come to those articles that change their tallies; that is the nature of information and knowledge over such broad-based activity. The LINKS matter: They are available for some data points over a hundred links; but those are not collected nor posted; only one or a couple of links that best express the data point is recommended. Such is not against WP guides as I understand it; indeed WP guides seem to demand that high quality links be used to support statements. When some contributor finds an improved source link, then a bump can be made: in better, off not so good source. AS TO EVERYTHING: Because of the nature of the article and its own statement: "incomplete" is the scene, not everything. Doing best possible would be a service to readers. Joefaust (talk) 04:16, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- COMMENT:, but change name to just "Paragliding fatalities". Commenting on the challenge of EVERYTHING. Fatalities is not everything. Everything about paragliding would be functionally impossible to put in WP. Even everything about those who died would be functionally impossible to place in WP. Rather the mere death tally is the topic resource barely so others have a bridge to their interests. Prominence deserved? The literature survey shows that fatality question is important to participants and the families of the lost participants; the same literature shows that organizations and manufacturers and sellers of gear are caring about the fatalities. Without life, the activity stops. What does the matter deserve? To be available or not to be available; no interpretive prominence; let the readers decide for themselves what the information means to their lives. Joefaust (talk) 04:32, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Everything is bad The main article Paragliding is very much both promotional and how-to-do in tone, obviously written by fans, if not salespeople for the manufacturers of the equipment. Sorry if that sounds like "assume bad faith" but that's what the tone of the article says to me. It really makes WP look bad. On the other hand I would normally vote to delete this article since it's just a list of raw data, and obviously also included with a POV purpose, in this case to warn people of dangers barely mentioned in the other article. It would be better to delete this one and put some solid info on fatalities in the other article. But still the problems with the other are far far worse than the existence of this one. Borock (talk) 06:46, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe this statement to be utter hogwash. The main paragliding page does not read as promotional material either for the sport or for particular manufacturers of our equipment. Nowhere in the entire page could I find the name of any brand or equipment manufacturer or references to them, for example. A brief look at the section headings and their contents show the paragliding page to be a well thought out overview of the sport, it tells the reader what it is, how one goes about it, what is involved for participants, what types of equipment are used, etc, etc. It provides a reasonable introduction to those with a general interest in paragliding, or the reader who would like to understand what it is, from the outside looking in, so to speak. 88xxxx (talk) 10:26, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- To User 888xxx. 1. Please refrain from calling good faith notes of fellow contributors here as "simply hogwash", as that kind of attack seems to lower the tone and purpose of this discussion and might be against WP talk-page guide. 2. The article on paragliding lacks considerable amount of topics that may be cured; a very narrow POV about the realm of paragliding is expressed in that article; but such is a matter elsewhere. 3. AS TO the topic of this present discussion, one contributor mentioned a suspicion against WP:NOTMANUAL: I just read:WP:NOTMANUAL. "Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, textbook, or scientific journal". Well, the article on bare fatalities (forget the injuries, there is a hope by at least two in the discussion) at hand does respect that guide. The article is not a manual, not a guidebook, not a textbook, and not a scientific journal. So, the article can be kept on that point. Joefaust (talk) 00:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Your completely right. The comment, however, was complete Nonsense. If I'm not using the approved language for saying that I think someone is talking rubbish please advise how I can do so without offending 3rd parties. 88xxxx (talk) 23:11, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The contributor gave reasoned on-topic remarks; such manner and way is with sense, not nonsense, even if you disagree with the sense and reasoning.Joefaust (talk) 00:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Yet again, I'm at a loss for words. I said: "The comment was complete nonsense". User "joefaust" says "such manner and way is with sense, not nonsense, even if you disagree with the sense and reasoning." Surely, if I disagree with the sense, isn't it rather obvious (literally) that I think it's nonsense? No sense = nonsense? I'm losing the will to live here, it's like dealing with a child. WP admins, please put a stop to this! 88xxxx (talk) 03:36, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep or Merge to the main article on paragliding, which fails be of neutral point of view at present, and makes repeated assertions such as "it is accurate to say that paragliding can be a very safe sport" while blaming any injuries or fatalities on "pilot error." "Catastrophic injuries in sports and recreation: causes and prevention" says "Paragliding, if not a dangerous sport, is definitely a most risky one." "A minor misjudgement can be catastrophic." "..of paragliding crashes, 26% resulted in severe injury, and 8% of the pilots suffered fatal injuries." (page 429) "Fundamentals of aerospace medicine" analyzes paragliding accident modes and says (pp 663-664). "Fifty-four percent of the injuries left the pilots with persistent functional disabilities and complaints." This included numerous spinal injuries. Yes, they are mostly due to "pilot error," but they should not be glossed over and minimized. There would be no need for a "content fork" or this stand-aline article if the main article on paragliding were made NPOV rather than the present promotional tone. Edison (talk) 17:16, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You misquoted above. Your source says "Paragliding, if not a dangerous sport, is most definitely a risky one." rather than "Paragliding, if not a dangerous sport, is definitely a most risky one." (and for some reason cites a hang glider study to support that). Anyway, I don't think anybody involved in the sport would dispute that it is a risk sport. That's why it appears in the extreme_sports template. Jontyla (talk) 20:14, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete The treatment of the dangers of paragliding in WP should be similar to the treatment of danger in other extreme sports (with the possible exception of things like BASE, which is approaching 2 orders of magnitude more dangerous). If this is not respected then WP cannot be said to be neutral on this subject. This article appears to have been created (and Paragliding edited) with the intent of making paragliding seem more dangerous than it is, and more dangerous than other air sports (notably hang gliding, whereas the statistics show the reverse is true). Just for reference, a paraglider pilot has roughly 3 times the risk of being killed in a paragliding accident as they have in being killed in a road traffic accident (I've put the citations and justification for this in a proposition in talk:paragliding). Jontyla (talk) 20:14, 7 October 2011 (UTC)— Jontyla (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- COMMENT: On matters just mentioned by Jontyla: Notice that you made an exception for BASE jumping; and a statement that was firm about orders of magnitude; citation is requested. On neutrality: it may be appropriate to clean up lacks in other articles; lacks in other articles do not logically force non-neutrality when an article is neutral and appropriate; going to possible immature articles for models does not seem helpful when WP is after building mature good articles. On the "making ...seem" guess, such does not apply to my contributions; I have good faith to neutrally show the fatalities of a sector of sport paragliding according to WP guides of verifiable knowledge and reference to best known level without excess; each contributor will be called to do similarly. The statements you just made has me feel like you have all the advanced statistical analysis conclusions over the matter; including those results with good citation is something to look for in your contributions. I wonder if the statisticians had available the worldwide sport paragliding fatalities as their starting point. I await your contributions along these lines. Keep, not merge; link from a sub-section Paragliding (sport), and and also link from a sport sub-section in Paragliding to such. Your car statement are interesting; good citations would be more interesting; I cannot take the matter just at the writing of the numbers. Joefaust (talk) 23:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- to JoeFaust: Citation for base jump stats? Try Base_jump#Fatalities. As for the PG and HG numbers, as I said above, I included citations in the proposal I made in talk:paragliding. Jontyla (talk) 00:53, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- COMMENT: Jontyla states "the statistics show the reverse is true" but there are no statistics presented on the page being discussed - only an incomplete list. It is not rational to make an argument using statistics vs. a tally, either here, or on Wikipedia Paragliding, where it is done extensively, or throughout the paragliding universe. A serious problem with the so-called statistics being presented by the paragliding enthusiasts in this argument and elsewhere is that a proper basis to create valid statistics does not exist for paragliding so any claims made in regard to such statistics are a fiction. For instance, to derive a ratio of fatalities per 1000 participants it is necessary to know how many participants are flying paragliders and how many participants have been reported killed. Determining the number of participants is extremely difficult, both nationally and globally, because there is no mechanism in place to reduce the annual total of experienced pilots and students reported by the training schools, where such numbers are sometimes reported, by the number of students and pilots who quit or are injured or killed. To complicate matters further, the number of paragliders actually flying is unknown because the usable life of a paraglider is shorter than all other aircraft, causing them to be retired, and most manufacturers have not released production numbers. Worse, the collection of fatalities and accidents is not conducted in a responsible manner by the sporting organizations. They often collect only the fatalities and injuries reported (and many go unreported) within their own country among their own countrymen, leaving other distant parties with the responsibility to report or fail to report incidents suffered by visitors, which are often the larger segment. This chronic under-reporting has been used to the advantage of paragliding enthusiasts in their safety arguments for many years. It was only when an individual from outside paragliding took it upon himself to publish referenced reports of fatalities and injuries that it was demonstrated that the safety argument for paragliding was fabricated. His argument and his list are here http://www.cometclones.com/mythology2011.htm . I bring this to the attention of Wikipedia editors and administrators not to hope it will be included in a topic, for which it is admittedly inappropriate, but rather to warn them that they are being played on this page by Paragliding Forum members with thousands of highly opinionated posts in their history which have attempted to demonize, ridicule and minimize any mention of possible problems with paragliders or excessive accident rates. Nopara (talk) 02:12, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- To Nopara: I said the citations were in a proposal I'd made on the talk page to update the (locked) page, not the page itself. I've now added a subject heading so than it can be referenced directly; Proposed_Change, thought since you have already commented on it you have presumably already read it.
- As to your arguments about the French statistics being invalid, they do not hold water. The suggestion that they should include non FFVL members is a bad one. The whole point of their usefulness is that they compare a known population (FFVL members) against the death rate within that population, thus giving a good index of the risk. If deaths of people outside that population were added it would degrade the statistical validity.
- Your suggestion that the FFVL artificially inflate the population by including everyone who has ever flown PGs has at least the merit of not being logically false, though unfortunately for your arguments it is factually false. The FFVL uses its current membership list; that is everyone who has shelled out the €74 for that years membership, which should mean that there are relatively few who are no longer in the sport - not enought to seriously effect the stats.
- Your suggestion that deaths are not reported to the FFVL is probably false. The police investigate all such deaths on French soil and I believe (though I'm not certain) that the FFVL, as the recognised controlling body of the sport, will automatically receive copies of those reports. FFVL officers will typically be directly involved in the investigation and in any case there is a culture of reporting major accidents to the governing body to help in identifying and correcting emerging dangerous trends. The FFVL includes in its statistics accidents of its members which occur outside France, and in any case most French pilots do most of their flying in their home country (which is not true for some other nations).
- My statement that this data supports the premise that HG is more dangerous than PG is, contrary to what you say, supported by the study I cited, though only weakly due to the very low numbers. Going to the same source for data for the three years 2006-2008 show 3+1+1=5 deaths from HG and 8+8+10=26 deaths from PG, but there are 21 times as many PG pilots as HG pilots in the FFLV. That means even excluding the 'black' year for HG of 2006 HG is more than twice as dangerous as PG, and taking all three years into account it's around 4 times as dangerous.
- You state "It is not rational to make an argument using statistics vs. a tally". This statement suggesting that a tally or list of accidents is more useful than statistical data beggars belief by its lack of understanding.
- Jontyla (talk) 14:14, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - completely fails WP:INDISCRIMINATE and as a result provides virtually no useful information for the reader. Non-encyclopedic article. - Ahunt (talk) 23:12, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- COMMENT: The citation give information on target; best known citations for a death in a subject activity is strong information at such level. Very encyclopedic; with such knowledge a host of types of readers will have the potential to derive benefits for the sport, its participants, and the society that embeds the sport. Joefaust (talk) 00:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply: Actually a large number of the refs cited in the article are forums and other sources that fail WP:RS and especially WP:SPS. It makes the whole list of little value even if the list were not WP:INDISCRIMINATE. The subject of paragliding safety is worthwhile. Personally I quit flying paragliders after just about everyone I know, including my instructor, had been killed flying them, but this needs to be a section in Paragliding that cites data and reports from reliable sources, not an indiscriminate list like this made up mostly from non-reliable sources. - Ahunt (talk) 12:15, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- COMMENT: I just was noticed by someone here in a post remark that one is to post the word "KEEP" as prefix just once, while prefixing other comments with COMMENT. Accepted. But WP says this process is not a vote process, if I read correctly, but a consensus of advance wikipedians after a reasonable display of struggle over WP guides and policies. In any case who will correct the excessive "votes"; we each could clean our prefixed position. Joefaust (talk) 00:14, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- COMMENT: If there is any move to "vote" then I ask politely that Jontyla place a full disclosure of all the posts that are occurring at his forum that he mentioned that may go against the WP:CANVASS. I do not the appropriate avenue for you to disclose such to WP admin; is it here? Such might be affecting this work. Joefaust (talk) 00:14, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- "my forum"? I don't run any forums nor am I an admin or moderator on any. If you are referring to paraglidingforum.com, of which I am an ordinary member (as is JoeFaust), then another forum member posted a topic about these discussions, I posted a reply saying, in effect, if you have a view then contribute but don't all pile in and swamp the discussion. At the suggestion of a third forum member I added a reply suggesting that the moderators hide the topic, with which the original poster concurred, and which I believe has been done. Whether I should have supported hiding or not is a good question. Many PGF members would likely be interested in these discussions, are knowledgeable about the subject and would probably wish to contribute. In addition it would show quite how fringe the views of Joe and NoPara are. However, PGF (being far and away the major online discussion group for PG related subjects) has over 20,000 members and many hundreds of highly active posters, so the result might have been chaotic. For reference, I know of three PGF members posting here, myself, 88xxxx and JoeFaust. Jontyla (talk) 00:53, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- COMMENT - completely fails WP:NOTLINK: "Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files", "Mere collections of external links or Internet directories.". Non-encyclopedic article. End of. 88xxxx (talk) 23:18, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- COMMENT: This was already brought up. A citation per person's death is not a "mere" collection; the article is not even close to being a directory. The article is of a type that one could hardly be less effective to fulfill the making of a knowledge bridge to a chance to make the world better on the matter of concern; do not let the sportsperson's experience in the sport go unreviewed by people that may advance the sport by virtue of WP's gift of knowledge.Joefaust (talk) 00:14, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- COMMENT: About the WP:NOTLINK matter. I am under the understanding the citations with links in them are treated different from sets of links that are not citations. The article as started has only citations for the tally marks; the tally mark is the content that is cited. Differently would be just putting a list of links in say "External Links" or "See Also". WP rather requires that the content matter of articles be cited. The article could expand to prose: John Doe in Country at Date crashed and died reportedly from the crash at Site. Citation. Or refraining from such: place a tally content and cite; let the reader see the tallies and totals per year; if they want more or need more, they go to the citation source. Which way would be best? The prose short remarks or the tally by nation? Joefaust (talk) 00:23, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Appears to be WP:OR on paragliding fatalities. A lot of the source material is web forums and other dubious sources. If we can find actual statistics published by reliable groups, that might be more reasonable, but a country-by-country breakdown is obviously WP:INDISCRIMINATE. A basic summary of "number of casualties" in a line or two could be merged, but that information isn't in these sources, and adding up all the data from a huge variety of sources that might have different methodologies or classifications is clearly original research. SDY (talk) 01:50, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- COMMENT in support of article. * The proposal that there might be a reliable resource for worldwide "statistics" over the fatalities just may be answered only in some far future time. Yet the best source of the fatalities just might be those sources that name the deceased pilots. Those speculative future agents will have the knowledge that WP could present in the article; they would thank WP for providing the knowledge over which they might work their statistical analysis. A best citation per human being that died in a specified sport sector seems to be the least note that an encyclopedia could give in these days of digital access. Click and one gets to best-yet source. WP may be bold and not have to wait for some future agent. FAI is not doing the job. No one national org in paragliding/hang-gliding appears to be doing the job of worldwide presentation of the fatalities and best click-to information. The article carves out a defined sector, faces that sector, and gives best-yet source for the tally marks. Either directly link to the best-performing researcher on the matter or do as the article does: fatality cited to best known source of information. Easing prose could be added: "Known so far are ### fatalities in Nation in 2005" etc. The best known research source for the subject holds the raw sourced material of fatalities AND holds his theories; the theories are being contested and examined in the sport; those who disagree with his theories and those theories themselves are separate from the singularly best collection of fatalities and citations for those fatalities. A Paragliding (sport) article or section in another article that neglected best resource just to carry out an avoidance of that resource's theories would neglect giving readers the best-yet bridge to the fatalities. WP could serve in one or several articles. The present discussion faces an article that would give just focus on the fatalities sans linking to just the site of that researcher. Should FAI or some other researcher presents, will they give link to best-yet information about each fatality yet known? WP could be with this article now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joefaust (talk • contribs)
- It's still raw data without any interpretation from a reliable secondary source. We could nominallycome up with our own interpretation, but that's also not what we do here. SDY (talk) 20:01, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete on grounds of OR - the numbers have been created by finding accidents and enumerating them, which means that methodology is suspect. I note that while its seems to be indiscriminate on one hand, on the other, it omits most nations of the world and limits itself to a period of only four years. The topic of safety should be covered in the main article in the first place - and spun off only when the usual spin-off circumstances dictate.GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:11, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Some apparent fans of paragliding have disparaged the data on injuries and deaths as being unreliably sourced, from "web forums" and the like. Please do not misrepresent sources. I cited above a book published by a university press, and a medical textbook, both clearly reliable sources. The reliable sources do not have to be cited in the article for an article to be kept, they only have to exist. It's always fun to see the single purpose accounts popping up at AFD. Edison (talk) 19:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
COMMENT and NOTICE: Editor 88xxxx in this discussion group has started an article that has been moved to a name close to his start: Hang gliding fatalities As yet the contents seems identical to the article we are here discussing in AfD, so it seems appropriate for one of us to mention this other article's start, as perhaps such new article would come under the same scrutiny as we presently have going. I have done some following editing in that new article in an attempt to incorporate some of the guides learned in the article we hereon are discussing. The starting of that article went against the WP guide: "AfD participants should not circumvent consensus by merging or copying material to another article unilaterally, before the debate closes." Joefaust (talk) 21:00, 8 October 2011 (UTC) Joefaust (talk) 21:36, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It appears that there was a Hang gliding fatalities page, but it was deleted by request of the original author (G7). If, as you say, that page had content identical to this page, then perhaps he agreed with you (and the many other users above) in that it broke WP Guidelines and deleted it. As original author of this Paragliding fatalities page, I would urge you to do the same. 88xxxx (talk) 02:43, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- G7 could give his or her own reason why the deletion was made. I saw the content and to me it seemed that it was a copy-paste of all the citations in the Paragliding fatalities article; I edited the intro before the deletion by the starter; I edited the intro to fit the citations in the body; just maybe the G7 account saw that the copy-paste from another article broke some WP policy. Who knows? Putting up your guesses is fine, but it does not tell us the rationale of the G7. Was G7 you 88xxx?
- Hang gliding fatalities involving hang gliders with TCF was started to complement the Paragliding fatalities article; together they cover almost all forms of hang glider machines with no overlap when one respect the current introductions as of this moment.
- This page should be deleted, of this I have little doubt. There are simply too many ways it breaks the WP rules for it to stay. Should the WP admins decide, for whatever reason, not to delete it then we need to propose that this page be renamed Hang gliding fatalities involving hang gliders without TCF if we wish to be accurate. I just thought we should take note of this now lest we forget, although I am confident we will all be spared this time consuming exercise when the admins do indeed delete this page. 88xxxx (talk) 16:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete has no real content and it is not really an article on fatalaties just some out of context statistics created by original random research. An explantion of the safety record could be made in a couple of sentences in the main paragliding article but nothing here worth keeping. MilborneOne (talk) 12:29, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. It's just a list of links, and it's axe-grinding.Manormadman (talk) 20:11, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I started this entire controversy in April or early May of 2010. I believed then, as I do now, that to present such a happy face on safety in paragliding when faced with such a large list of fatalities was unethical. Wikipedia editors were asking for citations. I provided them. It is particularly appropriate to provide the other side of an issue when NPOV is lacking. A high level discussion about how to correctly present references could well be in order, but arbitrary deletion of all references and changes without discussion from May 2010 forward is a political action which has no place in Wikipedia. When the fatality list for 2009 was arbitrarily deleted without discussion, I posted this on May 19, 2010:
>I am aware that the paragliding community does not wish to allow a fully cited paragliding fatality list to be published on their Wikipedia Paragliding How-To as it exposes the pervasive myth of paragliding safety. The associated, cited reference to the official British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association observation that SIV training is counterproductive was also removed (without comment), apparently to preserve the likewise pervasive myth that training and skill make a difference. As the removed fatality list clearly illustrates, sudden collapses and uncontrolable, nose-down spiral dives continue to kill pilots across all skill levels, including the very best, the most famous and most accomplished. The list itself stood for 19 days. I find it curious that the Wikipedia UberEditors state, under the Safety heading, "This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (August 2009)" Over 100 citations were removed, along with the fatality list and BHGA reference. This is perhaps a sad commentary on the Wikipedia universe. Or perhaps the truth will come to light. To me, the most important aspect of any sport is the fatality list. The term "sport" implies a significance of skill level. But in paragliding, the ugly fact that half the people getting killed are getting killed by the failure of their equipment is being kept hidden. I realize that I am not pursuing this agressively enough to do justice to the Wikipedia vision but I must admit, I posted the list primarily for my own verification: to see how long it would stand. Now I have the list but the readers of Wikipedia don't.Nopara (talk) 03:42, 19 May 2010 (UTC)< The verification to which I refer was an investigation of Paragliding Forum members seeking out web discussions and arguing ad infinitum against any information that presented paragliding in a bad light, regardless of truth. Nopara (talk) 06:50, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- As I understand it the list you are referring to exists on the private "cometclones" website. This seems the perfect place for a list of uncited news articles related to paragliding deaths. Not in an encyclopedia. 88xxxx (talk) 08:06, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - User:Nopara - as a former paragliding pilot I happen to agree with what you have said here, even the most experienced pilots get killed flying paragliders because of inherent problems with the nature of the craft itself. There should be a treatment of the safety issues in Wikipedia. That said, this article we are discussing here is not the way to to do it. Even it it were complete it would still tell readers virtually nothing beyond raw numbers. What is needed is a proper section within the Paragliding article that cites at least several safety studies of fatalities and that shows cause factors, all properly referenced to reliable refs. - Ahunt (talk) 11:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Ahunt - As an active paraglider pilot for the last 25 years I have been to three funerals of paragliding friends - two died of cancer and only one died paragliding (as it happens doing something really dumb, aerobatics near the ground). I agree with you that even experienced pilots get killed, but this is true of all air sports I believe. Very often they are killed by complacency. It's interesting that your personal experience has led you to agree about the dangers of paragliding (was this some time ago? Things have changed a lot since the early days). Statistically speaking, nowadays it appears to be significantly safer (on an annualised basis, as far as fatalities go) than general aviation (which I believe you are involved in). This came as quite a surprise to me. However, don't get me wrong, I don't consider paragliding as safe, it's just that many other common things are nearly as, or more, dangerous, but we tend not to focus on the dangers. When you are reflecting on what would be an appropriate piece about safety in the paragliding article, I would suggest that you also consider that same structure in general aviation and other adventure sports pages, since what is appropriate for paragliding is also appropriate there. Jontyla (talk) 17:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - not that it is really all that relevant to this deletion discussion, I was paragliding between 1991 and 1998. My instructor was killed paragliding as were about another half dozen or so people I knew or admired in the sport. I quit in the end because I worked for a helicopter company that regularly carried paraglider pilots to mountain launches and had a lot of exposure to the sport, with some of its pilots and lodge managers involved in paragliding. After a number accidents involving employees the company forbade any of its employees from paragliding anymore. To the point though I agree that all air sports/recreational flying articles here need to discuss safety, but as I noted above they need to do this by citing studies and their conclusions, not by attempting to list accidents and drawing their own conclusions. While not perfect the section Homebuilt_aircraft#Safety is an example of this sort of approach. - Ahunt (talk) 18:31, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I've been proposing something roughly equivalent for the paragliding page Talk:Paragliding#Proposed_Change. If you feel like taking a look then your input would be welcome (if you've got the time and energy then you could contribute to Talk:Paragliding#Revert_to_prior_version too). Jontyla (talk) 20:09, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - Changing the name of a bad article does not make it a good one, re-write or be deleted!Petebutt (talk) 06:53, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep this note lowest: NOTE: Article was moved to Paragliding fatalities Joefaust (talk) 21:00, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep but reorganise into some sort of sane table or something. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:23, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete as a too highly detailed list of essentially nonnotable facts, better suited for a paragliding safety website. also, Category:Deaths by hang gliding doesnt have any articles other than this and its cousin, same with Category:Deaths by paragliding. all 4 items dont amount to an article, only a subsection in the articles on the sport.(i tried to CFD these, i think i failed at it)Mercurywoodrose (talk) 03:51, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.