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not notable The spouse of a church official who was murdered. He might conceivable be notable, but there is nothing to show that she is. DGG ( talk ) 23:30, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Fails WP:GNG. Nothing found to indicate notability whatsoever. Only blogs and other non-reliable sources. I don't believe that any of the CSD criteria fit for this particular topic so I brought it here instead. Majora (talk) 23:13, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Delete It's kinda embarrassing we even have to have this conversation. One source, their blog. Not trying to soapbox as this isn't the venue, but seems this is a great example of an exploitable hole in our CSD policy. Drewmutt(^ᴥ^)talk23:28, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Google Scholar and Google News search reveal no mention of the topic. The only source for the article is the organization's own blog. I poked around it a little, but I couldn't find a "news" or "media" page. On the "About us" page, there's no mention of membership or involvement in the broader community. Informata ob Iniquitatum (talk) 23:35, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No evidence of notability. There might be a reasonable argument for speedy deletion under CSD A-11 and/or CSD G-11. This looks a lot like promotion of something the author(s) cooked up. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:57, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete this is not a real topic of interest in folklore,. Should be removed. User:smithriedel
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Delete or entirely rewrite. The article as it stands is a lot of original research and trivia with no references. Something could be added to Dan Schneider (TV producer) about the interrelatedness of his shows: this topic does have a little bit of media coverage[1][2]. There's even an academic article, "'The Schneiderverse': Nickelodeon, Convergent Television and Transmedia Storytelling" by Helena Louise Dare-Edwards[3] Even though the topic may be marginally notable, WP:TNT applies here. --Colapeninsula (talk) 13:33, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Draft move to draftspace as he may well be signed to a top club this summer and soon play senior football, salting is unnecessary at this stage for a 19 yr old Atlantic306 (talk) 22:19, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, but I don't see the harm in moving to draftspace considering he is supposedly a highly talented player with potential rather than an older player nearing the end of his career Atlantic306 (talk) 22:27, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - My comment from the previous AfD still stands: fails WP:NFOOTY, but there is plenty out there to satisfy GNG. Sure there is a lot returned by google about a couple of free kicks he scored, but there are also these amongst others:
There is a lot of "look at this wonderkid"-guff and reports of his free kicks, but there is also plenty of coverage from a local, regional, national and international perspective that goes beyond transfer talk and provides in depth commentary on and interviews with the player. Fenix down (talk) 11:38, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Fenix down above. Those saying "delete" have made zero effort to engage with the very high number of sources which clearly do exist about this player. The nomination itself doesn't even suggest that he fails WP:GNG. Looking at those listed above and those easily accessible via google it appears to me that he does satisfy GNG. Macosal (talk) 12:32, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It was clear in the previous AFD, that he fails WP:NFOOTBALL; the argument to keep in the last AFD is that he passed WP:GNG. And he still does. In the past AFD I raised two sources that were unchallenged one and two. Add in the ones above, and the keep argument is stronger than ever. And what's with the SALT from User:GiantSnowman for a nearly 2-year old article about a real person, that's never been deleted before? How does this come anywhere close to meeting WP:SALT criteria? Nfitz (talk) 05:45, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - He hasn't lost notability since last AFD, rather gained it. There's more than just WP:Routine information available, with significant information and independent sources available to warrant his article. - J man708 (talk) 18:13, 19 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Because it was a redirect until shortly before the AfD. See the article's history. I'm not adamantly opposed to a redirect, but I don't see the need despite redirects being cheap. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:14, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect and protect the redirect. This is simple stuff - non-notable band members of a notable band get redirected to the band's article. I don't see why people need to be awkward about it. Exemplo347 (talk) 17:28, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Jax 0677: But only one of the WP:SECONDARY (not second hand, or even correctly: second-hand) sources discusses the subject. The rest discuss her band. Also, it was redirecting there until you objected and reverted it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:45, 19 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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This is a procedural nomination to clean up articles tagged as potential hoaxes. This article has been tagged as a potential hoax since January 2017 and there was some discussion on the subject at that time. However, there has been no effort to refute the hoax claim since then, so I am submitting it to the wider community for a deletion discussion. On the merits I am neutral. —KuyaBriBriTalk21:13, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete this irredeemable, unreferenced mess. So far as I can tell, there's no "tribe" associated with Nakchivan/Naxuana, and most certainly not one called the "Nakchies". The identification of the classical-era Caspians with any extant group of people is highly contentious, as is the identification of the Lullubi with the Kurds. And that doesn't begin to address the claim that most Azerbaijani share a Lullubi heritage (that's [citation needed] because it's probably simply false). The Gargareans, as presented in classical sources, are mythical; although there's probably some initial basis in fact, it wasn't with the creators of the Albanian language (which almost certainly is derived from an earlier language originally spoken in the Balkans, not anywhere near Azerbaijan). There is no Sakh tribe in scholarly literature (or anywhere else, really), and although the etymology of Artsakh is disputed, "Land of Sakhs" isn't generally one of the choices. In summary, I can't tell if this is a hoax per se, or merely uninformed writing that mischaracterizes whatever absent sources it was based upon. But even if we were to agree that an article at this title were warranted (which I'm dubious of), this simply can't be it. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 21:45, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delete - We have List of ancient Iranian peoples, Pontic–Caspian steppe, and tons of other articles that express early tribes and cultures in this region organized in ways that fit how they are organized in reliable sources. In my opinion, organizing them by, "tribes that inhabited Azerbaijan in ancient times" fails the policy, no original research. Where appropriate, the individual tribes could be mentioned in the Prehistory or Antiquity sections of History of Azerbaijan (and some are), but there isn't anything referenced here to be merged. Smmurphy(Talk)22:09, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete — Appears to be WP:POVFORK with various other problems. Quoting an older message of mine on that article's talk page which also seems relevant: "We already have History of Azerbaijan#Prehistory and Caucasian Albania#History. My initial impression was also that this should be deleted, although since this has already been discussed and the alternative is to improve it, it may be possible. The descendents of Noah claim seemed especially dubious, as all who believe in the Abrahamic Flood Myth consider themselves to be alive because they are also descendents. But it makes sense in the context of etymology, afterall. On the other hand, what can be done if noone improves the article?" —PaleoNeonate - 23:23, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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This article was previously nommed & deleted per AfD (link on talk page). In addition to this being a junior athlete, the credits listed here are dubious at best. The first link given ("Dirt Bike Rider") does not list Ware at all. The second link (Dirt Hub) shows him finishing 67th in a race. Third link, Maxxis Championship Results don't show him at all, much less 2nd place. 4th link to Imgur appears faked, actual results on the Team Green UK web page list some of the other riders but not Ware. His name appears nowhere on the Team Green UK site or the Kawasaki site, the page for the event doesn't list him either. With no reputable sourcing other than a 67th place finish in one race this in no way meets WP:GNG. JamesG5 (talk) 20:35, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Just another phone. Not a "flagship" phone as claimed. Fails WP:GNG. (online presence should not be confused with notability.) —usernamekiran(talk)18:32, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Charlie pepin: Hi. I agree Xiaomi is a very big company. But the article being discussed is not about the company, it is about their product. The company already has an article: Xiaomi. This product however, is not notable enough for an article in an encyclopaedia. —usernamekiran(talk)00:21, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Usernamekiran: It is a flagship phone from a popular manufacturer. It is also the second smartphone to have the Snapdragon 835 and the first budget smartphone to have the Snapdragon 835. Charlie pepin (talk) 12:02, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was redirect to List of hotels in Pakistan. There seems to be a rough consensus that this page does not meet our guidelines. However past that there seems no solid consensus on whether to delete outright or redirect. In the absence of a clear consensus for deletion I generally opt for a redirect. Ad Orientem (talk) 00:11, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Several items have been tagged for "citation needed", which is fine. We need to "Keep" hotel list-articles in general (within system of lists List of hotels), and merge/redirect not-individually-notable separate hotel articles to them. --doncram23:21, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The citation needed flags were added by me five months ago, they are not meant to be permanent and since no one else has given any source(s) claiming the notability of those list entries I don't see why they need to exist anymore. Please do explain why we need to "keep" all hotel list articles and include non-notable hotels forming indiscriminate lists or borderline travel guides? Ajf773 (talk) 04:55, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep; Karachi has several notable hotels eg. Pearl Continental, Avari, Marriott, Mövenpick, Ramada, Regent Plaza, Arabian Sea Country Club and more. This could easily be converted into a list, per doncram. Mar4d (talk) 11:18, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Many of those listed are hotel chains. Notability is not inherited based on the fact they belong to a hotel chain, the Karachi franchise must be notable on its own merits. Ajf773 (talk) 11:20, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to List of hotels in Pakistan. Not a strong case for this being a standalone list given the apparent paucity of notable hotels in this city. I think there's a place for listing international chains in country-specific lists, less so for listing individual locations of that chain, but that's an issue for that page, not here. postdlf (talk) 21:25, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I think that a final relist would be beneficial. The strongest arguments are the "delete" and "redirect" arguments. Both delete and redirect arguments agree that hotels in Karachi alone are not notable enough to be included in it's own separate article, and that it should instead be redirected to the broader List of hotels in Pakistan. The delete side argues that Wikipedia is not a travel guide and therefore the article should be deleted.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Music1201talk18:02, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. the other lists contain notable hotels. This one does not have any. If some of the hotels can be shown to be notable, then, and only then, would there be a point in an article. There;s no point merging to List of hotels in {akistan, since that list--just as it should-- contains only notable hotels, and none of the ones here would qualify--there is nothing to merge. DGG ( talk ) 09:41, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete Fails WP:CORPDEPTH. Although there are 35 references quotes in the article, most fail WP:ORGIND as they rely on quotations and facts from the company or its officers. The others simply name-check the company or include it in a Top 10 list. None of the articles provide any depth of coverage and simply regurgitate company announcements. -- HighKing++ 17:55, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I am aware that this is the third nomination of this article. The first closed as "no consensus" and the second was recently withdrawn by the nominator before I had a chance to finish my searches and comment. I've reopened this AfD for two reasons. The first is because the initial "no consensus" AfD was 4 years ago in 2013 and was a non-admin close who recognised that there was very little meaningful discussion and no apparent analysis of relevant sources. I agree 100% with the reasoning provided. Here is my analysis of the included sources:
This article is not attributed to any named journalist (unlike most of the articles on the website) and for me, is questionable for reliability, fact checking and meaningful editorial oversight. In my opinion, it fails the criteria as a reliable secondary source.
This indiatoday article is an advertorial and fails WP:ORGIND as the pertinent in-depth parts of the article appear to be written by the Managing Directoy.
This hansindia article is also not attributed to any named journalist and is therefore questionable for reliability, fact checking and meaningful editorial oversight. This article is unquestionably an advertorial and fails WP:ORGIND.
This thehansindia article repears a company announcement in relation to the "Aakash National Talent Hunt], is not intellectually independent and fails WP:ORGIND
This Pujab News Express article reports on the talent hunt but fails WP:ORGIND as most of the text is derived from company sources
This indiatimes article looks at the coaching industry and mentions the company and gets a quote from the MD. The article fails WP:CORPDEPTH as it is only mentioned in passing and fails WP:ORGIND as it relies on quotations and facts from the company
This hindutimes article appears to be an announcement that the company won an award. This is the PR announcement. In my opinion, this award does not meet the criteria for establishing notability.
It is strange that an article is being nominated for deletion twice in a week. Its first speedy deletion along with FIITJEE nominated by User:Specialpage was quite suspicious, which violated Wikipedia's deletion policy and deletion process, even when article was not qualified for speedy deletion. Also, this case shows that how deletion administrator are irresponsible, they just deletion article even without checking whither article is suitable for speedy deletion or it's not. Just because a speedy deletion tag has been put, it does not mean, it should be checked nomination was right or just a vandalism.
Coming to the point raised by HighKing.
Most of the media coverage are from mainstream media houses of India. As you stated, should i consider, are all India media houses are bullshit? Are these popular India media houses just a pr or advertising agency? Nope, not at all. Possibly , few of them can be a pr piece, but not all. I do not agree with your statement and your analysis too, which looked quite biased. Your analysis consists some of the links which have not been added to the article. Some media coverage has quotes made by the MD, but none of them has been quoted in the Wikipedia article. And, all facts are verifiable by different media sources not by MD's quotes. Again check, none of the facts are verifiable by MD's words or interview. Facts are verifiable by news sources only.
The tribune article mentions company with name spelling Akash Institute.
You say, this hindustantimes article appears to be an announcement that the company won an award, but by reading it's headline it can be clearly understood that award has been won.
You quoted, This is the PR announcement. In my opinion, this award does not meet the criteria for establishing notability, but question is where did you this ref? It's not added in article. Please do not confuse editors by false statements.
Coverage is significant in the quality and popular press in India. Indeed pass notability. If clean up is required do it.--Elton-Rodrigues 11:41, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
Comment Thank you for responding and I will attempt to explain further with reference to your comments and queries. I agree that most of the media coverage is from mainstream media houses of India. But that doesn't automatically infer that the references meet the criteria for establishing notability - which is a little different than using sources to establish facts (where, in fact, company sources can be used in some circumstances). I've spent a lot of time looking at the sources - you say that "a few of them can be a pr piece" and I would say that, in fact, nearly all of them are PR pieces. Again I emphasise that we are *not* establishing facts but establishing notability and the criteria for establishing notability is specific about which sources are allowable and goes on to state that those sources must be intellectually independent and also states they must not rely on pieces supplied or written by the company or their officers.
I found the misspelled "Akash Institute" in the Tribune India page, thank you for pointing that out. I'm sure you agree that piece fails WP:ORGIND since is not an in-depth piece on the company and is an announcement concerning a visit by the MD.
Regarding the award, I also added in this link and this is the PR announcement about the winners. You ask "where did you this ref". I would have thought the answer was obvious - it is because I wanted to find out if it was a major award that could establish notability, therefore I googled the award to learn more about it. As you can see, it is a big stretch to say that Aakash Institute *won* the award seeing as "more than 100 Brand and Leader awards were felicitated" - for the same award! It is also notable that the award ceremony's keynote speaker was Mr. J. C. Chaudhry (the MD) and this (for me) calls into question the "intellectual independence" of the award. Given that there were over 100 "winners" of the same award, I do not consider this award as meeting the criteria for establishing notability. I have not sought to "confuse editors by false statements" but instead to provide *all* of the relevant information. In my opinion, by *not* properly researching the facts, the allegation of misleading editors should properly be laid at the feet of editors who add in information that misleads a reader into thinking that something (like an award) has far greater merit and significance that it has in reality.
I've no doubt you believe this topic is notable. If am happy to revisit my !vote if you can find sources that meet the criteria for establishing notability. -- HighKing++ 17:13, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment@HighKing: Somewhere, in some point, i may agree with you. But still the article has received significant media coverage in mainstream media houses in India. Such media houses that includes The Hindu, Daily Bhaskar, The Hindu Business Line, Business Standard, India Today, NDTV, The Times of India, The Economic Times and Hindustan Times are considered quite reliable sources. It's still surprising for me that it can'be considered reliable in your opinion. An article at Business Standard reported that the institute is bullshit about its online offering. If all refs are just a pr piece, why do Business Standard reported it bullshit about its online coaching. So, It proves all refs are not just a pr piece. So one thing is clear some of refs can be pr but not all refs. I don't find your statement justifiable.
Can some other editor perform reliability check of these references added to to article from scratch and check if article is notable for Wikipedia inclusion?
Do check some article, some of them have been edited or improved by me. Here FIITJEE, Resonance Kota, Career Point, Career Point University, and Vibrant Academy, Are reference of these article complying Wikipedia's policy?
I have just researched more about the institute and found some controversy related to institute which i have added to the article. I have improved the article by removing unattributed news article and announcement related news. Please do check and if still problem is not fixed, please help the article to improve and comply it as per Wikipedia' s guidelines. --Elton-Rodrigues 13:55, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
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Delete. Political backroom advisors are not automatically presumed notable just for existing, and neither are non-winning candidates for political office. And most of the sources here are not substantively about Giugliano, but merely namecheck his existence within coverage that is about other things or people — the only two sources that are about him to the depth needed to count for anything toward WP:GNG are both in the context of his candidacy. But such coverage falls under WP:ROUTINE, because every candidate for any office in any election always generates some of that type of coverage, so its existence cannot be the base of a claim that he's notable because "media coverage exists ergo GNG" — to be considered notable because candidate per se, the candidate must either (a) be shown and sourced as already notable for other reasons besides the candidacy (which, again, the sourcing here is not showing since he's not the subject of any coverage outside the candidacy itself), or (b) be shown and sourced as having had his campaign coverage explode far out of proportion to what could be routinely expected to exist, along the lines of what happened to Christine O'Donnell in 2010 (which two pieces of campaign coverage is not doing). Bearcat (talk) 13:50, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I suspect this article may have been created in the expectation that he was going to become MP for Edinburgh West, but he didn't. PatGallacher (talk) 23:49, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Unsuccessful candidates for political office have no inherent notability, and there's nothing but routine coverage that doesn't meet the GNG. Exemplo347 (talk) 17:40, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I created the article but wasn't notified of this discussion, so haven't had a chance to work on the article. He has been unsuccessful at three elections for European, Scottish and British parliaments so doesn't fulfil WP:NPOL. Over a period of several years there has been coverage of his European roles, activity at conferences, television appearances, etc which means I think he does meet WP:BASIC. There are some significant pieces of newspaper coverage too: [4], [5] and [6]. Drchriswilliams (talk) 06:37, 19 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Comment Completing nomination on behalf of IP editor--above text is copied from article talk page. Article had been prod'ded shortly after creation, which was contested in good faith by a third party. I have no opinion of my own on the nomination at this time. --Finngalltalk17:24, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep Walters clears WP:POLITICIAN with flying colors as an elected member of the New Jersey General Assembly, a fact documented by reliable and verifiable sourcing. This is a bad faith nomination from an editor who has been disruptively editing the article for Sea Bright, New Jersey. That the nominator appears to have ignored WP:BEFORE and was explicitly informed about WP:POLITICIAN only aggravates the situation. Alansohn (talk) 17:09, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: First, although in this case the obvious whiff of WP:OWN makes it almost unneeded, it is traditional for article creators to note the fact. Next, State reps, do not clear notability with "flying colors", Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Common outcomes notes that they "usually" pass. A glance at state rep articles suggests why, they usually have other accomplishments beyond the simple fact of election. Genuine notability doesn't lead to a stub based on a short obit.
Next, the article appears to be created in response to a red-linked "notable" in another article. That's backwards, and that has some obvious implications.
Keep Subject was a member of the New Jersey Assembly in the 1890s. Passes WP:Politician "Politicians and judges who have held international, national or sub-national (statewide/provincewide) office". --Enos733 (talk) 22:06, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Snow keep. Wikipedia has a very long-established practice of keeping articles about state legislators. It is discussed occasionally but there has been no sign of any consensus to change this.--Arxiloxos (talk) 01:31, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep with a side order of snow. People who have verifiably served in state legislatures are kept — they do not have to achieve anything special that would mark them out as more notable than their other colleagues in the legislature before they qualify, because state legislators are a class of topic, just like federal congresspeople, where Wikipedia consensus has decided that our goal is to be as complete as feasibly possible a reference for all of them. Walters served in the 1890s, meaning that proper sourcing is going to be harder to locate than it is for someone who's serving in the house in 2017 — it won't generally be sitting out on Google for the most part, but will require digging into archival sourcing such as microfilms or news retrieval databases like ProQuest — but we know for a fact that improved sourcing exists somewhere, because state legislative politics is a thing that media covers. So this could certainly still be flagged for ((refimprove)), but the only thing a state legislator requires to be non-deletable is the fact that his holding of the office is verifiable in at least onereliable source. Any further issues with the article beyond that are matters for the researching and editing processes, not the AFD process. Bearcat (talk) 13:36, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus. Numerically, this would be a clear delete, however, several delete !votes are weak, citing problems with the text, tone etc. as reasons for deletion (WP:UGLY). The core question is notability however and those !votes that argue about it are split whether this person is indeed notable with both sides making good points. SoWhy09:50, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Extremely promotional, ref-bombed autobiography of a non-notable casting director and producer. The requirements of WP:GNG have not been met, and my searches turn up absolutely nothing that counts as "significant coverage in reliable, independent sources." A person does not inherit notability from the projects they work on, so mere involvement is not enough. Exemplo347 (talk) 00:34, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - There are some independant sources. Granted it should be rewrote, and some of the references are unreliable. Reb1981 (talk) 01:55, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Reb1981: Can you point out the sources that meet the "significant coverage in reliable, independent sources" requirement? All I've found are passing mentions, PR, and an industry award that has been given to around 1000 people. Exemplo347 (talk) 07:21, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep Per refs #7 and #32. Most of those other refs are obfuscating things. Being a VP at Warner Bros. and Disney plus an award is probably enough, and I assume more inferences to notability can be made, but this article is in need of some serious cleanup. South Nashua (talk) 14:14, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Exemplo347: and I can't believe one independent source somewhere didn't pick up something from those press releases and didn't use them as part of something. If an expert on this subject can't clean it up in a few weeks, that's one thing, but how it looks now, this article can be fixed if some time is put into it. AFD is not cleanup. South Nashua (talk) 14:23, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Biographies of Living Persons are held to a high level of sourcing. If the sources do not meet the GNG then the article must be deleted. Have a read through WP:BLP and WP:GNG - there's simply no significant coverage in independent, reliable sources about this person. Stick to policy - BLP articles are one area where Wikipedia doesn't allow editors to keep articles because they think sources might exist somewhere. Exemplo347 (talk) 14:28, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm not sure what I'm meant to be seeing. The weak sources are still there and no GNG-ready sources have been provided. Take a step back, this isn't some sort of argument. If the subject met the GNG then I wouldn't have started this deletion discussion. Exemplo347 (talk) 16:14, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're entitled to your opinion and I appreciate it, but I disagree with it as well. This article is a mess, but it can be fixed with enough time and effort. The seeds of that better article are already there. South Nashua (talk) 17:00, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- a glorified CV, not an encyclopedia article. Casting directors and / or documentary producers need to be truly remarkable to meet GNG / BIO; this is not the case here. K.e.coffman (talk) 20:18, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus defaulting to Keep. This is w/o prejudice to a future nomination though I would suggest a reasonable interlude before sending this back to AfD. Perhaps the article can be improved. Ad Orientem (talk) 00:25, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is a scam, but it may be a notable scam. The name "were bank" consisting of two frequent words makes it difficult to find references. Jack N. Stock (talk) 04:39, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I promoted this page from the vast sea of junk that is [[[WP:STALE]] userspace because I don't believe that the notability of a company is in play here, but rather that this is a notable long term scam that several government bodies have deemed notable enough to issue warnings about. It's also an older scam, so I doubt there will be much future coverage and the online accessibility of material may decrease, but the quality of sourcing suggests notability. Legacypac (talk) 16:34, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This should be restored to User:4shires/WeRe Bank as opposed to deleted if it is found unsuitable for the mainspace per WP:UP/RFC2016 (B4), i.e. If a draft is moved to the mainspace by a user other than its author, then found to be unsuitable for the mainspace for reasons which wouldn't apply in the userspace, it should be returned to the userspace (move). — Godsy (TALKCONT)09:47, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Stop stalking my edits Godsy. You are following me around like a puppy dog. Godsy also conveniently forgets the community reached agreement that material deemed unsuitable for mainspace should not be retained indefinately. I think it belongs in mainspace, but if the community disagrees, there is no point keeping a WP:STALE draft forever where the author is long gone. Legacypac (talk) 20:49, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Was deprodded with the rationale put forward by Godsy above. Then moved back to draftspace. Then moved back to mainspace. As I said in the prod: Because of the commonality of the name, very difficult to research. I couldn't come up with enough in-depth coverage to show it merits inclusion. In its current incarnation, it is mostly OR. Onel5969TT me14:16, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
much as it rankles my inner deletionist-- userfy. I think to Godsy's user space, with the understanding that progress will be made in making this into an article. Considering how long it takes for something to be considered too stale, I think we have a while.Dlohcierekim (talk) 05:34, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Continued Or back to where it came from. It is clearly not ready for main space. Were it not for the strictures of stale, I would say delete. But it's not dlohkipedia, so meh.Dlohcierekim (talk) 06:00, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Apparently a notable fraud. There does appear to be a reasonable basis for changing thetitle sdo as not to misrepresent the contents. DGG ( talk ) 03:54, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Does not seem to pass WP:Notability. Sources are affiliated with the subject. Nota: Pages about other personnel at the same company may face the same issues. darthbunk pakt dunft12:38, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep She's got quite a bit of coverage in specialist/business press.[7][8][9][10] There's also a Times article that mentions her in the headline but it's paywalled[11], as are some WWD articles[12][13]. Not conclusive, but she holds an important role at a FTSE 100 company, one of the largest in its sector worldwide, and possibly meets WP:GNG. --Colapeninsula (talk) 16:06, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep Apparently you don't know, but UCI Continental teams do meet the guidelines for notability. They are professional cycling teams. The article needs expansion, which i was planning on doing today.--Seacactus 13 (talk) 14:20, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment@XyZan: While the specific guideline has been provided, I would like to be reassured that the GNG is passed as well. Siuenti (씨유엔티) 08:09, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ideally merge somewhere as I believe KAP03's statement about search results and the GNG, and this was a very short-lived team. Keep it until a good place to merge has been found/created. Siuenti (씨유엔티) 06:57, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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comment His player credentials, if true, would pass NHOCKEY (player for Dinamo Riga in top russian league). However I do not believe they are true. On the other hand there are articles like this from NHL.com and this from the Ottawa Citizen, so GNG is a possibility if someone wishes to spend the time on it.18abruce (talk) 13:10, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have seen it mentioned in english sources as well, unfortunately he appears on none of the riga rosters in available databases. If he played in the late '70s then it is plausible that they are incomplete.18abruce (talk) 13:14, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Besides the sources 18bruce and Respublik provided, there is also an article about him here. Plus an article in the New York Times, which although it only devotes one paragraph to the subject, refers to him as a "famed hockey coach." So even if he did not play for Dynamo Riga, we have multiple articles about him, plus the Times claiming that he is "famed." And I suspect he did play for Riga, since Lithuanian sources say he did, and Lithuanian Wikipedia claims he did (and I realize that Lithuania Wikipedia is not a reliable source, but I think their editors would know better than us whether a statement like that is correct). So I think he passes GNG, and most likely passes NHOCKEY. Rlendog (talk) 16:12, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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'Delete'NeutralWeak KeepFails a basic google, google-news, and google-books test (both in amount of hits, and given the small amount - quality). Considering the subject's time period and web design activity - there should be ample on-line sources for him if he were notable.Icewhiz (talk) 11:43, 17 May 2017 (UTC)Changing to neutral seeing there are some sources (+BBC doco?). If these are worked into the article - I will change my vote further.Icewhiz (talk) 18:53, 19 May 2017 (UTC) Convinced by User:Fences and windows + BBC doco. This isn't a must-include article, but he is notable. The article needs quite a bit of work, however I think it is better to leave in than nuke.Icewhiz (talk) 12:12, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- the sources are lacking, and the profiles included in the article are interviews, and aren't independent. The entities that the subject is associated with are all non-notable, with one (Underwired) having been deleted as unambiguous advertising. The copy is highly promotional, as in: "... was the world's most awarded digital agency in 1999" (according to whom?) Etc. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:40, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• A broad range of independent industry press references dating back to 1995 or 1996 exist with the surname misspelt either Verlade or Verlarde. I haven't had time to convert the URLs from Google but a simple search using the misspellings shows a range of articles. I will convert these and post these within the next 48 hours. 2A02:C7F:8209:F000:30D7:C237:9752:ED1 (talk) 07:34, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I see a total of 7 hits for "Felix Verlade" - Most unusable or passing, one semi-usable - [16]. For "Felix Verlade" there are 17 hits. This is semi-usable - [17] (and this is a copy - [18]). Sorry - still not notable. I'd expect one of the first web designers, as per the article, to have a significant web presence if he were notable.Icewhiz (talk) 07:43, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@ Icewhiz curiosity: why? Most internet trade publications and sources were not online in the 1990s; even Apple Expo or the many multimedia and internet expos had no online presence until the late 1990s. Doing a brief search on other digital companies in Wikipedia reveals that a large number of citation sources no longer exist or the pages have been removed. Notability is about achievements, awards and recognition, not about whether something exists on the internet today. Arcane (minor battles, pop producers, industry influencers) does not equate to not notable - fame is not at issue here. Or is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.133.9.98 (talk) 11:40, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My own personal experience with coverage - particularly relating to "internet firsts" (which tend to be celebrated years after the fact). Notability is first and foremost whether a person is considered notable by other secondary (or primary) sources - receiving WP:SIGCOV. News archives are mostly good back to the early 90s online (it starts to get more hazy in the 80s) - items that weren't online were often digital originally and uploaded later. At the moment - I don't see this. Books are also fairly easily searchable with google-books now. The only reference I found to him in a book - was - [19] which is really just a directory. If you bring up print sources (if they exist!) - then sure - he might meet notability.Icewhiz (talk) 12:01, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note that just because the link is broken - doesn't mean the citation isn't online. As long as the publisher didn't go bankrupt (with no one buying the archive) - the content usually stays online - it might however move (even several times) - to a different domain and/or location inside a given domain.Icewhiz (talk) 12:03, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Further note - His 2000+ activities should have left a source imprint if they were notable. What arguably hasn't is "founded one of the world's first web design agencies, Hyperinteractive" - which isn't sourced in the article. If he was amongst the 100 first web designers - that's probably not too notable. If he was first - maybe yes. But I don't see sources referring to him as such - so what we are left with is an unsourced claim which could also be not notable in itself (say he setup the 88th web design firm - would that be notable by itself? Probably not). In any event - what is key is actual sources. Bring up actual sources from WP:RS - and that is a compelling argument (even if the article is stubbed down).Icewhiz (talk) 12:14, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@ Icewhiz. Thank you for explaining, however neither Centaur Publishing nor Haymarket (both the major advertising industry publishing houses, respectively publishing the leading industry journals New Media Age and Revolution as well as Campaign Magazine) have their 1990s archives online any longer. The Financial Times, which carried several articles about the future of the web by Velarde, does not list him in its search results (a statement that is self-evidently unsupportable, but you understand the problem); Apple Expo, at which Velarde was a speaker in 1995 or 96; and Flextech with its Interactive Television trials with - in this case - the world's largest retailer (Tesco) and one of the world's largest conglomerates (Unilever), of 1998, do not appear online. However there are references to two published books which include chapters by the subject: ISBN-13: 978-0749469627 and ISBN: 978-87-403-0560-9. Velarde was not a web designer but an award-winning businessman who was considered (in the UK) to be an industry thought leader in more than one discipline in which he was either a founder or well-known practitioner (for a list of non-notable web designers with neither citations, mentions nor awards, see Wikipedia). There is a lack of citations in several areas of puff in this article, and the article should arguably be reduced to a list of known, cited accomplishments (e.g Head-Space, which is documented elsewhere in Wikipedia), publications (see books above), industry awards, educator status at various business schools etc. The style is disagreeable. I would argue for a rewrite to remove the editorial style, leaving simply the verifiable facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:8209:F000:E000:CEE8:CF05:A039 (talk) 21:59, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally the BBC documentary ('In 1999, Holland and his then business partner, Felix Velarde were the subject of "Keeping Creativity", an episode of BBC Knowledge's 15 part series, "The Crunch", profiling innovative entrepreneurs. The documentary was made by Uden Associates and is still broadcast occasionally in Europe as part of BBC Worldwide's business education strand.') cannot be found online at the BBC as its accessible archives do not extend to the period in question, yet it is presumably an unimpeachable source. All remaining references to the documentary are therefore secondary. How is this dealt with?
The speaking engagements and columns don't count for much for GNG (self-published material) nor are interviews necessarily significant. What is needed is coverage, from a reliable source, of the subject himself. The BBC doco - "Keeping Creativity" - might fit the bill, as might the two book references (978-0749469627, 978-87-403-0560-9) - can you post here excerpts from the books or the documentary (or describe the amount of profiling in it of Velarde)?Icewhiz (talk) 05:16, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment @Icewhiz, I think the article is possibly worth keeping, with reduced and copyedited article. Found this: Jason Michael Holland, Velardes partner and this: Head New Media which seems to confirm the details in the Management Today article. What we need is the domain name of the Head New Media agency, so it can be checked in the Wayback machine, and have a look at the About Us page if it existed back then, (which I don't remember it doing). scope_creep (talk) 11:59, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There is no information on the domain, except it was bought on March 1997. The way back machine didn't kick off until 1998. Currently he is not notable, as no sources to exist to verify his claims. Delete. scope_creep (talk) 22:34, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We don't need to examine his websites ourselves using archives. That is not how Wikipedia works. Hyperinteractive, Head-Space etc. are verified in independent, reliable sources. Fences&Windows16:56, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment So far there is a BBC doc mentioned and some refs on the article talk page. The BBC doc ref can't be verified, as it's not been surfaced, merely conjecture at the moment and the refs on the talk aren't strong enough for the new WP:BLP rules, they are tenuous at best, and don't prove notability. scope_creep (talk) 18:11, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. There is sufficient coverage of Velarde in reliable sources, both in pieces specifically about him and in pieces that feature him (not only in passing). This coverage persists over the years, from 1997 to 2015. This bio therefore meets WP:GNG. These sources were not all trivial to find, which is why others may have missed them. One site, Campaign, can be viewed for free in two ways: 1. Search for the article by title or URL via a search engine. 2. Register for limited access.
Comment User talk:176.25.24.222 is a SPA account and is likely Felix Velarde himself or a paid shill. I watched the BBC video, the Crunch, which I vaguely remember watching some episodes back in the day, but a few minutes in a BBC video does not make you notable. Most of the profiles included in the article, which are supposed profiles, are interviews or one type of another. The article is complete mess, written as a list of achievements, almost like a marketing skit, with no details of the man himself, and the links above are not strong enough for BLP as they are merely interviews and profile, mostly about his companies and businesses, which make the business possibly notable but not him. scope_creep (talk) 00:28, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment No, I'm not a paid shill, but I was involved in Head-Space in the late 1990s. My personal opinion is that he is notable enough to have been in Wikipedia for ten years and to remain despite not being well known outside his industry. My primary concern is that the arguments for removing the article have so far been based on a) the terrible writing, b) the lack of citations (which has been addressed through fairly thorough research by others), c) changing positions by the proposers, ie no refs=delete (fixed), no archives=delete (irrelevant), no BBC=delete (shown), d) merely interviews (don't understand why interviews by credible publications do not show notability), and e) (no offence intended) emotional reactions (despite the fact that user: scope_creep recalls watching the doco themselves presumably 18 years ago). I think there is sufficient coverage dating back a sufficiently long time for the article to be rewritten (clearly needed) or stubbed and remain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:8209:F000:BD0E:4A4E:1648:FCDD (talk) 08:38, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment (I am the subject of this article!) I don't care either way. Felix Velarde 09:03, 21 May 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by FelixVelarde (talk • contribs)
CommentFelixVelarde, personally I think you are probably notable. Anybody that was working back in the early days of html website development in 1993/94 was well known, and is notable. I remember surfing the web with a newly minted comp. sci. degree and reading about these guys who were earning a fortune doing html markup, and thinking whaoo, and a lot of them gained notoriety very quickly. But the problem is, WP now have new rules around BLP which means sourcing must be ironclad in verifiability. And I don't think they are there at the moment. As regards interviews, I think the reason they are not generally accepted as sources, is that they are not always under editorial control. See what the closing editor thinks. scope_creep (talk) 11:34, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Noticed by who? Indian press, which covers every driver who able to race in single seaters? He is a mid-grid driver in the Italian F4 Championship. It is the championship in which drivers go straight from the karting, and even place in the top-10 doesn't mean that he will go anywhere higher. Even the Italian F4 Championship leader's article was deleted because of lack of notability. See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Job van Uitert. Corvus tristis (talk) 16:41, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep nom has made several of these nominations which clearly are notable. This one appears to pass WP:GNG even if unlike the others it has no wp.Bulgarian article behind it. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:14, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. This one is not clear cut. However after three relists it's time to close this. IMO the weight of consensus and argument favors deletion and I don't think it's close enough to call it no consensus. Ad Orientem (talk) 00:52, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I had prodded this, but it was pointed out that this had been BLP-prodded before in its complicated history (a result of copy/paste jobs). It has also been at AfD--see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brandon Steven. So I'm choosing AfD again: non-notable local car dealer who made the local papers a few times--not notable by our standards. Drmies (talk) 16:18, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
keepThe Wichita Eagle is not exactly a "local" paper but is widely considered a regional source with circulation reported at 47,000 weekdays and 100,000 on Sunday. I don't buy the pitch that just because he's a car dealer means he's not notable. There's significant coverage here -- mainly from Wichita Eagle, but other sources too. Some of it looks a little awkward at times so there's some BLP issues to edit around.--Paul McDonald (talk) 23:31, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Paul McDonald. Significant, non-trivial coverage in a regional newspaper, plus a few other scattered sources. Ks0stm(T•C•G•E)20:56, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete car dealers aren't generally notable. Coverage in the Wichita Eagle is not enough for general notability, and neither is finishing 10th in the World Series of Poker main event. I agree it's a marginal case, but there are WP:BLP/NPOV concerns in the article as written, so my vote is Delete. Power~enwiki (talk) 21:08, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Possibly non-notable artist (I'm not certain). The article is written like an advert, with a bunch of improperly-formatted URLs which don't appear to me to satisfy WP:GNG. A Gnews search threw up only two articles which might satisfy GNG: Curbed[20] and Billbord[21], but I am not sure that Curbed is an RS. Note that the text was pasted in one blob[22] with the edit summary Uploaded the entire BIO for "Joseph Guay" which implies a possible COI or copyvio (though I haven't found a source for any copyvio). If kept, this needs big cleanup. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 10:29, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The Curbed source seems okay. I've read this exhaustive New York Times report on the source; NYT mentions: "To create that balance of power, the information needs to be reliable, and Curbed has made strides in ensuring the accuracy of its reporting." That, combined with the Billboard source and exhaustive reviews on the subject's work like this make me tend towards Keep. The subject, in my opinion, seems to qualify on GNG and perhaps more so on WP:NARTIST, having originated innovatively new concepts, which have been covered by multiple reliable sources. Of course, you are right. The article needs to be cleaned up significantly if kept. But this is not a TNT case. Thanks. Lourdes10:57, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Promotional blah-blah-blah with no sign of a single tangible accomplishment. Reliable sources are very thin at best. This is the only article edited by its major contributor. --Lockley (talk) 03:53, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep and reduce to a stub. In its current state it's almost entirely promotional garbage with an unquestionable COI; how does the editor know that his sister is a well-established esthetician if not through some personal connection? The peacockery is insufferable and many of the references are noting but announcements. However, the subject does meet some of the criteria in WP:CREATIVE; his work has been the subject of some critical attention and his work is in notable collections. Hack away, please. Mduvekot (talk) 16:36, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep He just about meets WP:GNG through the Billboard article and various Atlanta-area publications (primarily writing about his wall project). A lot of the cited references in the article are weak and a couple look like press releases. Taking photos of Elton John isn't itself a sign of notability, although John is well-known as an important collector of photography. The article and some of the keep comments over-sell him (posting a bunch of links to Google searches does not establish notability). But we should try and evaluate it dispassionately and while it's arguable I think he's just about above the bar. --Colapeninsula (talk) 16:46, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. Not exactly unanimous but IMO the weight of consensus and argument favors Keep. If this were the first review I'd relist it. But after three relists it's time to for a judgement call and that's mine. Ad Orientem (talk) 01:17, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BLP of a political consultant, which is (a) written more like the sell-yourself pitch at the top of a LinkedIn profile than anything resembling an actual encyclopedia article, and (b) parked on a single primary source rather than any evidence of reliable source coverage about her. As always, political campaign strategists do not get an automatic inclusion freebie just for existing; they must be the subject of enough reliable source coverage to clear WP:GNG for an article to become earned. Bearcat (talk) 02:37, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment a mistaken tweet by a politician referenced her. [34]. She also sometimes writes articles for newspapers. [35]
A person gets a Wikipedia article by being the subject of coverage in reliable sources, not by being the author of media content or by getting tweeted about. Bearcat (talk) 03:52, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There seem to be a fair number of hits in reliable sources which glancingly namecheck her existence in coverage of other subjects; there do not seem to be any significant number of hits in reliable sources which have her as their subject. Bearcat (talk) 03:54, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Since she is a long time political consultant, there are many passing mentions of her, and brief quotes of her doing her job, and tweets. Today, for example, she is irritated at a hotel with broken air conditioning. But I have been unable to find any significant coverage of her that demonstrates that she is notable. As always, I will change my mind if someone brings forward solid sources and adds a few good references to the article. Cullen328Let's discuss it06:28, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Your request is reasonable, so I ran a search with "Cuomo" as a keyword to see if there were "solid sources and added a few good references", found some, and added them to the article.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:19, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delete. There seems to be a lot of coverage by unreliable sources on both sides of the aisle. The few reliable sources give no more content than has already been revealed in this discussion (like [36]). But there are a LOT of unreliable sources covering her. The one incident with the like susan del percio hot tweet isn't enough per BLP1EVENT. —Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs) 03:00, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep- Subject has had significant coverage by reliable sources, not just passing comments, which makes her notable. Reworked the article plus removed a social media link. Easily passes WP:GNG. -AuthorAuthor (talk) 18:02, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus defaulting to Keep and w/o prejudice to a future renomination. I would however suggest a reasonable interlude before sending this back to AFD in the hopes of article improvement. Ad Orientem (talk) 01:26, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ineligible for PROD, PROD'd in 2008 for notability concerns & de-PROD'd because "Zen and the Art of Making a Living has a respectable Amazon uk ranking". ♠PMC♠ (talk)15:31, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Total lack of reliable sources. Although his books feature on a few courses, that doesn't guarantee notability. Some of the courses are not mainstream academic subjects, e.g. he's included alongside texts on acupuncture and WP:FRINGE medicine here[38] and in other courses he's just one name on a long reading list or given as supplementary reading. He's not part of any widely used syllabus, or either subject or author of a commonly-used textbook, and he's not the subject of significant published criticism. --Colapeninsula (talk) 14:03, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Colapeninsula, I understand what you're saying. Yet, I feel there are some examples that are compelling. Wakeforest University mentions in their Non-profit Immersion Program that they teach the program...: "...through discussions and reading various articles and books, including ‘How to Find The Work You Love’ by Laurence Boldt and excerpts from the anthology ‘Leading Lives that Matter.’...",[39] it provides support for the enduring significance of this author's works. UCLA's course on Leadership And Spirituality teaches “Service: The Call of Compassion” by Laurence G. Boldt as a course assignment.[40] Similarly, one of the tuition courses at Aquinas College has this statement: "Laurence Boldt authored The Tao of Abundance, and in this class through small group and experiential learning, we will explore samples of his text and engage in dialog and exercises to examine how we spend our time, circulate our gifts and talents, and how we cultivate chi or energy and joy in our lives".[41] All this, in my opinion, provides support for the enduring significance of the subject's works. With respect to whether the author's works are notable, I feel WP:NBOOK helps here, which mentions that any book that "has been the subject of instruction at two or more schools, colleges, universities or post-graduate programs in any particular country" is notable. Would be nice if you could comment on this interpretation. Thanks. Lourdes01:19, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus defaulting to Keep and w/o prejudice to a future renomination. The sole Keep !vote cited no policy or guideline but in the absence of any other participation after two relists, it's time to move on. Ad Orientem (talk) 01:29, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No independent evidence of notability either in the article or based on a Google search. Only hits are on his own books, which only means that he wants to be notable, not that he is notable. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:44, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus defaulting to Keep and w/o prejudice to a future renomination. With only one !vote (keep) after two relists it's time to move on. Ad Orientem (talk) 01:44, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hardly notable, fails WP:ENTERTAINER . She had some hits in her home country over the years, and minor media coverage but i don't think that's enough for her to have an article here. St0n3 BG (talk) 03:00, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep again, seems to have sufficient sources on Bulgarian article, and again nom has made several of these nominations which clearly are notable. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:15, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus defaulting to Keep and w/o prejudice to a future renomination. Lots of participation here with good policy/guideline based arguments. Unfortunately they are all over the place, often citing the exact same guideline with different conclusions. Given the level of participation I doubt a third relisting will add clarity. Ad Orientem (talk) 02:18, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete (from nominator) and Comment: That's not what those hits show: They are mostly local to her (Ottawa), tid-bits in tabloid magazines (Chatelane), or hits to sites selling her book. By and large, the hits are not about her at all, but about alternative sexuality with her providing a quote. That's not PROF.Starburst9 (talk) 08:38, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Not seeing evidence of meeting WP:PROF or WP:GNG. Search results noted above establish identity (as a therapist with academic appointments), but not notability (they do not provide any "substantial" coverage of the subject herself). Banglange (talk) 10:21, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, comment by Starburst9 is misleading ie. "That's not what those hits show: They are mostly local to her (Ottawa), tid-bits in tabloid magazines (Chatelane), or hits to sites selling her book." clicking on Montanabw google search, the 3rd 6th entry on the 1st page is none of these, it is to an article in the Canada-wide Globe & Mail about a study carried out by Kleinplatz and her team on sex and aging, just saying. Coolabahapple (talk) 09:38, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Passes GNG. As for Starburst9, if local sources are reliable sources, they do not need to be dismissed just because they are local. They can be used to establish notability. In addition, she and reviews of her work turn up on HighBeam and EBSCOhost. I'll try to add to the article later if I have time. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the nominator for the article is ineligible to !vote since their deletion nomination is already a !vote. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 21:56, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. From PROF: "A small number of quotations, especially in local news media, is not unexpected for academics and so falls short of this mark." Being HighBeam or EBSCOhost isn't enough either: "Simply having authored a large number of published academic works is not considered sufficient to satisfy Criterion 1." Banglange (talk) 22:37, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Notability not established: doesn't meet WP:PROF or WP:GNG. There don't seem to be any reliable secondary sources of sufficient quality, just a lot of links to the subject's own work. - GretLomborg (talk) 04:30, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus defaulting to Keep and w/o prejudice to a future renomination. After three relists it's time to move on. Ad Orientem (talk) 02:22, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Oakshade: You are thinking the the way around. The train station was on he track in 1896. The locality developed around it. Having a train station is not a notable feat. If it is a locality, obviously people are going to use the address. —usernamekiran(talk)04:49, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The station was built to serve the community the railroad deemed significant enough to build a station for. Stations aren't built to serve nobody. That the community is bigger now doesn't make it not notable. Almost every existing community is bigger than it was 100 years ago. --Oakshade (talk) 00:05, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Oakshade: In India, it is completely different. If there is no station/stop for a lot of kilometres between two stations, a new station is created in the middle of nowhere. Thats how Manwath Road, Latur Road junction railway station came into existence. Almost half of the stations with the suffix Road were created similar to this. They are named after a nearby town/city that is not on the track, Remaining half were created to actually serve the nearby area. This town has a railway station but it is not even mentioned anywhere. But cuz of the newly established station, the town is growing. —usernamekiran(talk)04:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Eluru where it is mentioned as a commercial center of the city. Without sufficient independent notability, neighborhoods are covered in the larger area. MB17:35, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep -- The Vedas and Mahabaratha fall into the realm of myth, rather than history, but that is no reason why we should not have an article on them. It is not or at least should not be a fork of the article on the modern place. The fact that a related article is a mess is no reason for deletion. Any issue as to lack of sourcing is irrelevant, since the Indian epic is a source in its own right. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:15, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
and de-tag The article is not a good one, but (contrary to the tags) it does not lack citations: there are textual ones to the Mahabaratha. It might be criticised for relying too much on primary sources, but that is no reason for deletion. I suspect the answer is that it needs attention from an expert. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:39, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Peterkingiron: The article doe not have any tags regarding citations. I dont call myself an expert on this topic, but i am very well knowledgeable. I dont have any issue with sources being primary. But the fact still remains the same, our article here is not an encyclopaedic one. Also, the mentions are trivial within the original scripture. —usernamekiran(talk)19:15, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I was referring to a verification tag. These appear to be calling for verification of a kind that is wholly inappropriate to myth/legend. The only verification possible is the citations of the epic, which is provided. I agree that the structure is unsatisfactory, but suspect that the source does not permit more. This is a common situation with ancient history and is difficult to get around. I have seen tags of this kind, calling for more content, which are tantamount to inviting OR. Peterkingiron (talk) 10:20, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Peterkingiron: if the kingdom is mentioned trivially within the epic itself, doesnt it make the kingdom "not notable"? If not, lack of secondary or tertiary sources make it not notable. I think redirecting it to modern day Magadha, and adding this content in sections history, and "in mythology" would be the best option. —usernamekiran(talk)14:55, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know ancient Indian literature in detail and thus find it hard to say more. I must defer to your view, to merge/redirect, but this should be to the specific section suggested bit to the article generally, Peterkingiron (talk) 16:29, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Peterkingiron: as said in the discussion (link given above), my first priority was to improve the article. In the first go, I searched only online. When I couldn't find anything, I went for OR. I've studied Lord Vishnu in depth. As per my tradition, Lord Krishna is considered to be 9th avatar from the dashavatara, and a "purna-avatar" (total avatar?). So I've studied him in depth as well. As one can see in the photo, I've original (bare act) of geeta, a few Puranas; and then books with commentary on it. I don't have actual Mahabharta, but I do have commentary on it (no fiction/novels). All I found was passing references. And honestly speaking, I don't have material on Rama, and/or Ramayna. I have read it from libraries though. (Never liked Rama. He is supposed to be the perfect human, and yet he didn't accept his own wife even after she walked on fire to prove her fidelity/loyalty for him. Resulting her going "underground".) During that reading, I never came across Magadha's mention. It might be because I never studied it thoroughly, or maybe because it wasn't important enough to be included in the commentaries with major topics. I also didn't understand your last comment. I have no idea how this skipped my mind, but we have an editor with deep study of Hinduism. Requesting your suggestions/opinions Ms Sarah Welch. —usernamekiran(talk)(log)17:39, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus defaulting to Keep and w/o prejudice to a future renomination. After three relists we have a single weak keep. That's not enough for any consensus and I am not a fan of endless relistings. It's time to move on. Ad Orientem (talk) 02:34, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This article was created by a WP:SPA editor, and I've spent a lot of time trying to clean it up as the creating editor continually re-inserts stylistic problems. However, as I look more closely at it, I'm not sure it really meets Wikipedia notability requirements. The subject, Gregory Short, was a local composer in the Pacific Northwest. Most of his accomplishments and potential claims of notability seem to be highly local:
The Washington State Teachers Association, of which Short was a member and adjudicator, once voted him Composer of the Year and commissioned him to write a piece;
He "taught at the college and university level for decades" (what schools, or his notability as an educator, is not stated);
However, I don't think that any of these factors, or all taken together, meet notability requirements.
I am also nominating the companion "List of compositions" article as part of this AfD; if the composer does not meet notability, the list of his compositions does not, either:
Perhaps if there were a group of Northwest Composers working off the local waters and mountains and traditional cultures, Greg would be at the top of the notability in that category.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Comment – Note that two articles are nominated for deletion herein. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America100002:47, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Note that two articles are nominated for deletion herein.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America100001:21, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete: A WP:SPA article on a company. Despite the claim that it "provides enterprise solutions for companies across universe" no less, neither the given links (of which the Destination Kerala Newsletter puff-piece is probably the best) nor my searches are showing anything to demonstrate notability. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH, WP:GNG. AllyD (talk) 14:41, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Multiple issues here, but lets start with this article failing WP:Athlete. It also reads like a press release, and doesn't have any independent sourcing. AniMate13:46, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This article is in truly god-awful shape and desperately needs a rewrite. However, Demario Richard actually meets WP:GNG. He plays running back for a Power Five program and rushed for 1104 yards in 2015. A quick google search does turn a fair amount of significant coverage of the type required under GNG, e.g., (1) here, (2) here, (3) here, (4) here, (5) here, (6) here, (7) here, and (8) here. Cbl62 (talk) 22:52, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep, According to WP:MUSICBIO, NU'EST Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart(gaon chart). You can see the evidence in NU'EST discography
Keep: I will admit, this article needs a lot of fixups and improvement. But they were notable enough for Wikipedia since 2013. Tibbydibby (talk) 02:20, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was soft delete. WP:REFUND applies. Per revised deletion guidelines after being relisted and with no votes or comments I am treating this as a de-facto expired Prod. Ad Orientem (talk) 02:53, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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I found a couple of references to this band, but I don't think they add up to the general notability standards, and I didn't find any of the criteria in WP:BAND. Their record label doesn't have an article, but maybe the title could be redirected to Landmark, Manitoba and a sentence or two about the band added there. —Anne Delong (talk) 03:04, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The strongest claim of notability here is that a couple of members went on to the more notable band The Details — whose article also needs a lot of work but at least has stronger potential notability claims than this iffen they can be reliably sourced. But that's not a free pass over WP:NMUSIC by itself — notability because of the band members has to be tied to those members having standalone notability as individuals, not just joining another band after the first one broke up — and the referencing shown here simply isn't enough to get them past NMUSIC #1 by itself in lieu of any verifiably noteworthy accomplishments. Bearcat (talk) 16:56, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete: I found no sources that are not stats pages for this player, so certainly appears to fail GNG. Nowhere close to the current NHOCKEY threshold normally considered to indicate that the sources likely exist either. Yosemiter (talk) 19:20, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep played over 170 games in the AIHL, the highest level of competition in Australia and was a member of the national team, competing at a number of world championships. Dan arndt (talk) 06:30, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Fails GNG going away. every source found (of which their are few non-stats sources) indicates WP:ROUTINE coverage which fails GNG. Fails NHOCKEY by playing in an amateur league that has not been proven to meet GNG consistently and in the third tier of the IIHF tournaments. Yosemiter (talk) 21:14, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Fails GNG miserably. Playing in the AIHL and/or the Australian national team is irrelevent until such time as it can be shown that participation in these entities would presume notability. Given the abject failure of this player to generate any notable coverage, this seems unlikely.18abruce (talk) 00:11, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep has played over 200 games in the AIHL, the highest level of competition in Australia and has represented the country as a member of the national team in the World Championships. Dan arndt (talk) 08:33, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Appears to fail GNG as the sources found indicate WP:ROUTINE coverage. Fails NHOCKEY by playing/coaching in an amateur league that has not been proven to meet GNG consistently and in the third and second tier of the IIHF tournaments. Yosemiter (talk) 21:18, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep. Her notability as an academic WP:ACADEMIC is established by: Professor of Social Work at Atlanta University (known then as Clark Atlanta University), and then the dean of students at Spelman College. She also established in 1971 an educational branch to the Hillside Chapel and Truth Center: the Barbara King School of Ministry at the which focuses on New Thought. Netherzone (talk) 13:08, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was soft delete. WP:REFUND applies. Per revised deletion guidelines, following two relistings and with no participation in this AfD I am treating it as a de-facto expired Prod. Ad Orientem (talk) 03:14, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Both labels are bluelinked, but they appear to be very small obscure labels. No citations for claims of touring, no charted singles, no reliable sourcing or reviews found of her works. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?)17:50, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete. Why we would maintain an article on a cancelled Civil War ship project. There are six of these. This gets far down into a level of minutiae that doesn't seem significant. --Lockley (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and redirect: the cancelled ships of the class should probably just redirect to an article on the class, which could include a brief paragraph on the topic. That said, it doesn't appear to exist, yet, unfortunately. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:38, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep. They've received the MM awards for best album (in 2004) and best alternative rock single (in 2000) [43], while their recent reunion has received coverage in quality sources [44][45]. – Uanfala (talk)10:22, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep -- I search for the name in Gnews and am getting a number of hits link, including what appears to be by-lined review: Review: "Both the two" - "Boy", which can be read via Google Translate. Given the language barrier and on the balance of things, I'd say it's a keep. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:07, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That bylined review looks like it comes from a PR company... What other review give us enough content to warrant a separate article on this topic? czar22:00, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete -- basically spam for a nn local event, with copy such as: "Miss Jozi pageant is a search for young ambitious, confident, intellectual & well groomed ladies; aged 17 to 27 years...". Wikipedia is not an advertising platform for such events, and this is pure WP:PROMO. Belongs on the org's web site, not here. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:17, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. After plowing through the walls of text, I believe that consensus favors deletion. On a side note (in case anyone actually bothers to read this summary) for the love of G--, be pithy. None of us are getting paid for this. Please confine your comments to what is germane to the discussion. Make your point, but be brief. Ad Orientem (talk) 03:58, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe that significant RS coverage for the subject, either in English or Estonian, exists, as is typical for low ranking Waffen-SS commanders. The article has been de-PRODed with the rationale that the subject was a recipient of the Iron Cross, 1st class. This does not meet SOLDIER #1, as Iron Cross was not the highest German award for valour during World War II. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:12, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, he received Iron Cross First and Second Classes, as well as other medals. I was not clear in my rationale for removing the ProD. This is the right place to discuss his notability-- or lack there of.Dlohcierekim (talk) 01:40, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
*Delete. There's nothing in the SOLDIER notability guidelines that he meets, although he was certainly present for a number of significant engagements. BigHaz - Schreit mich an06:46, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep per sources cited by Nug below. It's possible to argue that the second link (which seems to be focused on the battalion, rather than the man) is more an "in passing" kind of mention, but I'm giving a fair bit of weight to the fact that there's a book specifically about the subject of this article. BigHaz - Schreit mich an22:27, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion has deteriorated into one about who has to prove whether a source is reliable or not. I do not care to vote without being able to make an evaluation on this issue, although I strongly believe the burden of proof that a source is not reliable for the particular purpose it is used lies heavily on the challenger. --Lineagegeek (talk) 23:22, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, meets WP:GNG, topic of a number of secondary reliable secondary sources independent of the subject [46], [47] (the second link is the second edition of the source linked by the nominator above). Sources do not have to be written in English per WP:GNG, and while the publisher may be consided "small time" in the English language space, certainly more significant in Estonian particularly if a second edition is published. --Nug (talk) 09:41, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is easier to prove if a source is unreliable, per WP:QUESTIONED you need to show evidence of a poor reputation for reliability, like a negative book review or something. The fact that the second source (while focused on the battalion does have a chapter on Ruus), has gone to a second edition must indicate a reasonable reputation for the first edition. I don't think the sources are being used to make any WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims where a scholarly source is required to support those claims. --Nug (talk) 21:21, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, that is not how it works. The fact that one source has been re-issued is immaterial. For example, Franz Kurowski’s works (such as Infantry Aces and Panzer Aces) have been issued by multiple publishers & in multiple editions, but it does not make them anything more than POV-driven historical fiction. There’s a lot of unreliable literature on WW2, and experience has shown that reliable literature on low-level Waffen-SS commanders is rare. If the claim is being made that these sources (including Hando Ruus: The Artist and Legendary "Narva" Battalion Officer) are reliable, this should be backed up by more than one editor’s opinion rather than suggesting that we take these publications at face value. K.e.coffman (talk) 17:20, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Your "experience has shown that reliable literature on low-level Waffen-SS commanders is rare" is based primarily upon the english language space, you can't reliably extrapolate that to the Estonian language space. But you have ignored the main issue, you yourself have used WP:QUESTIONED in the past to successfully argue Franz Kurowski and others were unreliable based upon showing evidence of criticisms by Selmer and Davies and other historians. Now in this case you seem to ignore WP:QUESTIONED and its requirement for evidence of poor reputation and now expect us to provide evidence of good reputation.
But this discussion is about notability, reliability of sources can be taken to WP:RSN. Out of the nearly 40,000 Estonians drafted into the military during WW2, only a handful individuals have had biographies written about them in Estonia seventy years later, which indicates the level of notability of these individuals. --Nug (talk) 20:28, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Again, this is not how WP:QS works. This reminds me of a discussion I had with another editor who demanded that I provide sources "specifically criticising the factual information provided by Kurowski specifically about Otto Kittel" (emphasis in the original). To quote another editor from that discussion: "The onus to show reliability is on whoever proposes the source" and "You don't get to shift the burden of proof. On Wikipedia, sources are not by default assumed to be reliable". (More at: Talk:Otto_Kittel#Further_discussion).
That is not the case, you indeed did use the opinions of Smelser & Davies and other historians on RSN to establish why Kurowski should be considered unreliable [48], implicitly acknowledging that the burden lays with the one who makes the assertion. The presumption is innocent until proven guilty because proof of innocence is more difficult to provide than proof of guilt. If you can show that the author Reino Hein, who has a number of published books[49], has a poor reputation for checking facts or expressing extreme viewpoints, then I concede, but otherwise there is no justification in policy to claim this published biography on Hando Ruus is unreliable. --Nug (talk) 11:31, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with such interpretation of WP:QS. The book titles such as My honor is loyalty: The history of battalion "Narva" and Hando Ruus: the artist and officer of legendary battalion "Narva" are not neutral and suggest a strong POV on the part of the authors. See: "legendary"; and who would have thought that putting the SS motto ("My honor is loyalty") in the title would be suitable? That's why I am questioning these sources. K.e.coffman (talk) 20:09, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The works by Harry Tulp have been compiled for and published by the Klubi "Wiking-Narva", an organization of veterans and friends of the Estonian SS-Frewilligen-Panzergrenadier-Bataillon Narwa. That's not the kind of publication which I would presume independent of the subject. But why is it more difficult to prove a source to be reliable than to be unreliable? Basically this would mean that the least well known author is the most reliable for Wikipedia, because noone has anything to say about him. Maybe Nug can introduce the background and the credentials of Reino Hein, how his works were received and so forth. It's difficult to assess the kind of coverage and its reliability without knowing anything about the source. If the source has been used to write this article I find it strange that Ruus' service in the Schuma/Estonian Police Battalion 38 from September 1941 to October 1942 is left out.--Assayer (talk) 23:53, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure there isn't any conspiracy behind why the article may have omitted Ruus' service in Estonian Police Battalion 38, as it is a start-class article after all. You are more than welcome to rectify that yourself. German Waffen-SS veteran organisations are obviously dubious given that their members are/were ardent Nazis, thus meeting WP:QUESTIONABLE's "extreme viewpoints" test for unreliability. The fact that Baltic Waffen SS Units were recognised after the war as not sharing Nazi ideology, purpose or activities (not withstanding SputnikNews propaganda of course), with former members even trusted to guard real Nazis[55], their veteran groups don't meet the "extreme viewpoints" test. Their reliability is more on par with that of US or British veteran groups. Since it was K.e.coffman who challenged the status quo with this AfD and made the claim of Reino Hein's unreliability, the burden of proof clearly lays with him to substantiate his claim. --Nug (talk) 09:48, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, you did not provide any information on Hein and his work. Don't you have any? There are several ways to identify reliable sources, some of them quite easy: Was the book published by academic and scholarly presses? Is the author a historian, i.e. does he have academic training in historiography? How was the work reviewed? There is no reason to reverse the burden of proof, quite the opposite. I was wondering, if the article skips over some facts, because it is based upon the short book by Reino Hein, which would prove its unreliabiity, or whether that publication may not have been not used at all. --Assayer (talk) 23:00, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is true that former members of the Waffen-SS became recognized as some sort of "freedom fighters" in the Baltic States after 1991, because the Soviet occupation was deemed worse. In particular the Estonian "war of monuments" has been noted by scholars. German newspapers (no, not Sputnik news) regularly report with bewilderment on the frequent parades of the veterans and the attitude of the Estonian government. Shortly after 1991 the Estonian veterans of the Waffen-SS "Narva" Battalion built close relations with German and Scandinavian veterans and their organizations, like the Kameradenwerk Korps Steiner and the Truppenkameradschaft Wiking. This is testimony that the veterans do indeed share an ideology, purpose and activities. After all the Battle of Narva 1944 was special for the SS. The Estonian narrative of WW II feeds very well into the revisionist European narratives. Thus the argument that German SS veterans were "real Nazis", whereas Baltic Waffen-SS veterans were only, I dunno, "fake Nazis" (?), is as biased as it can get. Publications by an Estonian SS-veterans' organization cannot be considered more reliable than publications by German Waffen-SS verterans' organizations. Since no evidence for reliability has been provided, I'd rather opt for delete.--Assayer (talk) 19:54, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That is an ahistorical view. Most Estonian Waffen-SS veterans were conscripts, drafted into the occupying military forces of Nazi Germany. German Waffen-SS members were willing volunteers who subscribed to Nazi ideology. That is the difference. At the conclusion of WW2 the allies acknowledged the difference, Nuremburg rightly exempted conscripts in its judgement on the Waffen SS, Baltic Waffen SS veterans were permitted to emigrate to the USA whereas German Waffen SS veterans were forbidden, etc. It seems now that German Waffen-SS veteran groups are attempting to hijack the historical outcome for Baltic Waffen SS veterans for themselves by trying to associate themselves with these Estonian veteran groups. The argument for your !vote "Since no evidence for reliability has been provided" is a argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, in that the proposition that Reino Hein book is unreliable must be true because it has not yet been proven false.--Nug (talk) 02:06, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure dozens of foreign Waffen-SS veterans (all volunteers subscribing to Nazi ideology to a man) flock to Narva every year in an attempt hijack an event, which commemorates Estonian conscripts who died in that part of Estonia, for their own agenda. As your link sums it up succinctly: "The actual history of the Estonians’ involvement in the W-SS … is relatively irrelevant in this context". However no evidence of Reino Hein's association with German Waffen-SS verterans' organizations. --Nug (talk) 00:52, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Meets WP:GNG (which permits foreign language books) by being a topic of this book: Hando Ruus: Artist and Officer by Reino Hein. The nominator neglected to mention this source in the original nomination[56], despite it being clearly listed as a source in the article. This omission clearly influenced earlier !votes[57]. Despite the lengthy discussion above, no evidence has been presented that the author is in anyway associated with with either Richard Landwehr or Franz Kurowski, or any other dubious group. The case against Hein's reliability is based upon the fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam, in that the proposition (that Reino Hein book is unreliable) must be true because it has not yet been proven false. --Nug (talk) 23:42, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This Estonian online auction site lists the biography in question, with several spreads from inside the book: REINO HEIN -- HANDO RUUS. Notice the NS-inspired iconography: propaganda photographs, SS-runes, and swastika-adorned memorabilia. This looks like a questionable source to me. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:11, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously? The book is about person in the German armed forces who was awarded an Iron Cross. Page 58 showing ss-runes is a reconstruction of the award notice in a contemporary war time propaganda news paper, the caption states this. Page 58 is a photo of the original German notication of the award, the caption states this. By your reasoning this book would also be unreliable because it displays Nazi propaganda on the front cover and it's pages are festooned with NS-inspired iconography such as propaganda photographs, SS-runes, and swastika-adorned memorabilia! --Nug (talk) 04:00, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: It's certainly leaning delete, but I'm relisting to allow further discussion of Nug's sources
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Patar knight - chat/contributions04:24, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, Reino Hein's book: Hando Ruus: Artist and Officer isn't "my source", it is a source listed in the article's references, presumably added when the article was created. Somehow the AfD nominator forgot to mention it before a number of people !voted. After the existence of this biography was pointed out, the nominator then claimed it was "unreliable" without any evidence other than claiming it had the word "Legendary" in the title (it doesn't) and it had a handful of historical pictures that happen to incorporate Nazi state iconography (what book related to the Nazi German military history doesn't?). --Nug (talk) 04:47, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
For matters of convenience I'll put my rebuttal of your various assertions here. Mine is a view supported by historiography, whereas your arguments mimic the narrative of the Baltic and ultimately of the German Waffen-SS veterans: They also claimed that there were only few ardent Nazis among the Waffen-SS personnel. Most SS-Führer, i.e. officers, were rather military professionals who only happened to join the Waffen-SS, because the German army officers' corps was still dominated by nobles, their sense of status effectively blocking career opportunities for men of lower status, so they asserted. Some individuals commited crimes, the apologia continues, but on the whole the Waffen-SS was an effective elite military organization which gallantly fought against the Bolshewists, being the fourth constituent of the German armed forces, simple soldiers like any other. That's their story and it feeds excellently into the story told by the Baltic veterans. The Estonian Legion started as a volunteer force in 1942. Conscription began as late as February 1944. The decision of the DP Commission to allow former members of the Baltic Legions into the US, following the lead of the Nuremberg trial and the US High Commission in Germany, was highly controversial at the time, but politically wished for during the Cold War. As you may know, US military even gave Klaus Barbie a new identity and smuggled him into South America. Does that mean that Barbie had a clean record? Certainly not. See Eric Lichtblau: The Nazis Next Door (2014) on how the US dealt with former Nazis. And in 1980 the US Supreme Court ruled that if you applied for a visa to the US, it did not matter whether applicants voluntarily joined or whether they were involuntary inducted into a criminal Nazi organization.
Your argumentum ad ignorantiam works in both ways. You assert that Reino Hein's book is reliable, because you claim that this assertion has not yet been proven false. Likewise you did not provide a glimpse of evidence that his book is reliable. In fact, you only seem to know that it exists. However, that's not how Wikipedia works. Next time I may come up with a book on how aliens sparked life on earth, but I doubt that this thesis will gain much ground, although it has not yet been disproven.--Assayer (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ironically, it is your argument that mimics the narrative of the German Waffen-SS, that all Baltic men were volunteers who willingly joined to fight the Bolsheviks, when in fact Baltic men were being coerced by the German occupiers. I find it somewhat surprising that you would buy into that narrative and perpetuate it here. Yes, the Germans attempted to recruit volunteers in August 1942, however already by 17 November 1942 Generalkommissar Litzmann was complaining about sluggish recruitment of volunteers to the Legion and the lack of Estonian officers. By the beginning of 1943 the occupation authorities had instituted increasingly coercive measures for recruitment. By July 1943 the authorities were threatening severe punishment under martial law to those who did not "volunteer". By that time thousands of Estonians had fled to Finland to escape being "volunteered" by the Germans. See Böhler and Gerwarth: The Waffen-SS: A European History(2016). As for the US DP Commission, there is a big difference between lawful admittance of former Baltic Waffen-SS veterans into the USA under government policy, and covertly smuggling people like Klaus Barbie under new identities to circumvent US law.
I'm not making an argumentum ad ignorantiam case, which is a false dichotomy, because reliability is a spectrum. Certainly the source isn't a website, it is a published book, and I doubt the book espouses any kind of extremist viewpoint as it has been on sale in mainstream Estonian bookshops. The author is independent of the subject as far as I can tell. The fact that mainstream bookshops in Estonia have sold Hein's books must indicate some level of quality, as opposed to people who can only sell books from their personal website for example. All that has been offered as evidence of unreliability are some pictures in the book and a mistaken belief that the word "legendary" appears in the title. As for books about aliens sparking life on earth, see the article Panspermia, it is actually a serious topic of scientific research. --Nug (talk) 10:47, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Let's stick to what is actually written in that volume edited by Böhler and Gerwarth, shall we? There were several reasons why there were less volunteers wanting to join the Estonian Legion than expected, and the letter by Litzmann to Gottlob Berger from 17 November 1942, which you are referring to, was not complaining about sluggish recruitment of volunteers to the Legion and the lack of Estonian officers, as you claim, but (quote) "explaining the sluggish recruitment to the Legion by the lack of Estonian officers. The latter did not like the staff policy of the Germans, according to which officers would be given the title and rank of an officer only after long-term training." (Kott/Bubnys/Kraft: The Baltic States: Auxiliaries and Waffen-SS soldiers, in: The Waffen-SS, ed. by Böhler/Gerwart, Oxford UP 2017, p. 145.) During most of 1943 it was Legion or Labor Service. Martial law was threatened for those who did not enlist for either. You might make a point that people living in an occupied country don't have options. But you not only choose to exonerate the members of the Baltic Legions in toto from Nazism, you also suggested that the Estonian veterans therefore do not share the agenda of other veterans' groups. That notion is not substantiated by any evidence, while in fact Estonian veterans' organizations, e.g. the ELSK, do not speak of any "coercion".
Books by Frank Kurowski are sold in "mainstream bookshops" in Germany. Sellers hardly ever take responsibility for the content of the books they are selling. Neither did the US DPC, for political reasons, investigate any further, whether there were by any chance Nazis or perpetrators of war crimes among Baltic "freedom fighters" (think of Karl Linnas, for example). Wikipedia's guidelines on reliable sources do not specify that a source has to be considered reliable until proven unreliable. Instead, Wikipedia requires sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, specifying in considerable detail, how to identify those. Obscure sources with no reputation at all do not qualify as reliable.--Assayer (talk) 17:33, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Now you are going too far in in accusing me of choosing "to exonerate the members of the Baltic Legions in toto from Nazism", so in addition to argumentum ad ignorantiam you now attempt ad hominem arguments. Given the volume written here about the alleged Nazi orientation of Baltic Waffen-SS units, the subtext seems to be an attempt to re-enforce a presumption that Hando Ruus must be a Nazi due to his membership of a Baltic Waffen-SS unit, so why should we keep an article on him. Lets not add argumentum ad passiones to the mix as well.
As Böhler and Gerwarth's book concludes "You can only make a choice if you have options. … Those who live in an occupied country have no options." This was understood in the immediate aftermath of WW2, Nuremburg framed its exemption in these terms "excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes." The DP Commission understood this as well and the USA framed it immigration policies in that light. Karl Linnas however did personally commit war crimes and he lied about, he was a concentration camp commandant who was convicted in the Soviet Union for his role in the Holocaust. He was deported from the USA for hiding the fact of his war crimes on his immigration form. Even civilians are prohibited entry to the USA if they have committed war crimes, just like individual members of the Baltic Waffen SS who had also committed war crimes, unlike German Waffen SS members who are prohibited in toto because they were Nazis, regardless of their personal conduct.
I'm sure Franz Kurowski's works are very popular in Germany, but even his most ardent critics (See Smelser and Davies) acknowledge his "painful accuracy" for details on German military units, equipment and insignia, so certainly he is a reliable source for that kind of information. Foreign language sources are by definition obscure to English Wikipedia, but certainly not obscure in their respective country, and as far as I can tell, the author don't have a reputation for unreliability. --Nug (talk) 22:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nug, I am referring to what you wrote, not what you are. The fact that Baltic Waffen SS Units were recognised after the war as not sharing Nazi ideology, purpose or activities (not withstanding SputnikNews propaganda of course), with former members even trusted to guard real Nazis, their veteran groups don't meet the "extreme viewpoints" test. That's a conclusion by analogy and based upon a premise, which needs to be differentiated. My argument is that we should not keep an article on Hando Ruus, as long as there is no significant coverage by reliable sources, regardless of Ruus' personal convictions or ideological outlook. This is also not about the language of your source. It's about reliability and verifiabity. As you yourself pointed out, it is even not "your source", i.e. you haven't used it, but simply a source listed in the artcle's references. You don't know anything about the author's reputation, nor can you provide any verifiable information about him. Apparently no one can. That's what I call obscure.--Assayer (talk) 11:19, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So you are concerned that this biography cannot be trusted to get facts like his birth date correct and which units he served in? That's what reliability means. --Nug (talk) 11:42, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This has gotten way outside of the scope of the AfD discussion, but I believe it's worth pointing out that the subject did indeed have some "options" -- at least according to the article, which states:
"In 1941 Hando Ruus didn't follow the mobilization call of the Soviet Army. He decided to hide himself in the woods and became a Forest Brother. He became a group leader of Saku Omakaitse. In 1941 he volunteered for Wehrmacht where he was promoted to lieutenant..."
He volunteered for the German service, having successfully evaded the mobilisation into the Soviet army. I don't believe there was forced recruitment in Estonia under the Germans in 1941. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:21, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ruus joined the Wehrmacht in 1941 after his father, an Estonian police officer, was arrested by the Soviet NKVD in 1940 and shot. Most who joined in 1941 had a relative who was arrested and either deported or executed by the Soviet occupation authorities. At the beginning most Estonians saw the Germans as liberators from Soviet occupation until it became apparent that the Germans had no plans to restore the Estonian state. --Nug (talk) 11:42, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Historian Mart Laar uses Reino Hein's biography as a reference[58]. If a respected historian thinks Hein's book is reliable enough for his work, then it is definitely reliable for Wikipedia. --Nug (talk) 21:04, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Does Laar say that he thinks Hein's book is reliable for Wikipedia? Because generally speaking, if a historian uses a work simply as a reference, that does not automatically transform it into a reliable source for Wikipedia. Mart Laar quotes a lot of works of dubious quality like by Felix Steiner, Richard Landwehr and Mark Rikmenspoel. Does Laar therefore fail the "extreme viewpoints" test for unreliability, because Steiner fails it? Laar's POV as a historian is controversial. He is well known for his open heroization of those Estonians who fought against the Soviets, including members of the Waffen-SS. He called the Sinimäed Hills, where the Battle of Tannenberg Line took place the "Estonian Thermopyles" and repeatedly conveyed his greetings to the veterans' meetings while in office. --Assayer (talk) 00:37, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Dr. Laar has extensively researched and written on the topic of Estonia in World War II, and certainly wouldn't use a junk source. According to your criteria the Böhler/Gerwart work[59] would also fail the "extreme viewpoints" test as well, as they also reference works by Felix Steiner and Richard Landwehr. Again you are representing a false dichotomy, at issue is factual reliability not political reliability. Apart from junk, sources aren't either completely reliable or completely unreliable, sources fall within a spectrum. The reliability of a source depends on context. In the context of Estonia in World War II and Hando Ruus' place in it, Reino Hein's biography is a reliable source.
As for rest of your claims against Laar, that's just nonsense worthy of rt.com. I've been here on Wikipedia a long time, and given its penchant for adding controversies, the only ones listed in Laar's Wikipedia article are to do with his political career, unrelated to his activities as a historian. I don't think the European Association of History Educators would appoint controversial historians to its Honorary Board. --Nug (talk) 11:42, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Again you are misrepresenting my argument. Neither are the works by Steiner or Landwehr reliable, just because the contributors to the Böhler/Gerwath volume use them as sources, nor is Reino Hein's work reliable, because Laar uses it as a source. (Btw, is he the only one?) Historians use sources, both primary and secondary, in various ways Wikipedians can't. And keep your feet on the ground: You have presented a single footnote in a google books snippet, no comment whatsoever. Political bias affects factual reliabiity and the ways information is presented (or concealed, for that matter). If you plan on writing an article about the twisted historical memorialization of the Waffen-SS in Estonia, Laar's work is certainly a prime example. But that is not what this is about. About Reino Hein's biography of Hando Ruus we still know virtually nothing, so your claims are unsubstantiated.
As a sidenote, so far Wikipedia is completely silent on Laar's merits as a historian. The EUROCLIO Honorary Board also features Norman Davies, who is controversial. --Assayer (talk) 15:46, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Political bias affects factual reliability", so in other words you saying we must first check the political reliability of the author before we can assess the factual reliability. This isn't the Soviet Union, we don't have political commissars looking over our shoulders to tell us which source is politically reliable or not. Facts are facts. We look at the context of what the source is supplying to the artcle, not whether the source is in toto unreliable because of the alleged politics of the author.
I am not sure if you are unable or unwilling to understand that political bias is not the same as "political reliability". The problem of bias is a basic thread of discussion in the theory of historiography. Curiously you yourself previously argued that: German Waffen-SS veteran organisations are obviously dubious given that their members are/were ardent Nazis, thus meeting WP:QUESTIONABLE's "extreme viewpoints" test for unreliability. The fact that Baltic Waffen SS Units were recognised after the war as not sharing Nazi ideology, purpose or activities ... their reliability is more on par with that of US or British veteran groups. In other words, you looked at the "alleged politics" to determine reliability, and to some degree rightly so, albeit naive in relation to the Baltic Waffen-SS veterans, because political bias affects reliability. But let's not forget that we still do not know anything about Reino Hein's credentials, let alone his politics.
Again as a sidenote, you should not consider the things that Wernher von Braun said about concentration camps and slave labor after the war to be factually reliable, although he was an eye witness. --Assayer (talk) 12:16, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, Von Braun is an unreliable source for concentration camps and slave labor, but a reliable source on the topic of rocketry. Mutatis mutandis, Franz Kurowski is an unreliable source on Waffen SS atrocities, but a reliable source on operational details, which Smelser and Davis characterise as "painfully accurate". I think Wikipedians are intelligent enough to evaluate such sources given a particular context. --Nug (talk) 08:51, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
operational details ? To be more precise, according Smelser/Davies "gurus" like Kurowski and others "combine a painfully accurate knowledge of the details of the Wehrmacht, ranging from vehicles to uniforms to medals, with a romantic heroicization of the German army fighting to save Europe from a rapacious Communism. There is little in the way of historical context in the writings of these men." (Smelser/Davies, The Myth of the Eastern Front, Cambridge UP, 2008, p. 5)--Assayer (talk) 17:34, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Smelser & Davies says there is little historical context in terms of them not bothering "to tell us of the war of racial enslavement and annihilation these men pursued in the East", which is the same point you made regarding Von Braun and slave labour, but Von Braun remains a reliable source in rocketry. Wikipedians are intelligent enough to detect and filter out "romantic heroicization". That said, there is no suggestion of any link what so ever between authors like Kurowski and Reino Hein. The fact that Dr. Laar uses Hein as a source means that he sees Hein's book as reliable at least in that context in which he uses it. --Nug (talk) 22:01, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
weak Keep per the source in the article. It would be nice to have more sourcing.Dlohcierekim (talk) 11:50, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Relisting. I can see consensus is still being sought as per last relist comment
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NördicNightfury09:04, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Only one source. Does not meet WP:SOLDIER. The only point of merit is that he was the only Estonian to receive the German Cross. This detail should remain in the German Cross article, but I do not think Ruus merits a full article.Roches (talk) 23:35, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep He has had a book published about him (which appears to be RS)...and possibly more material in Estonian. The Estonian language Wiki has a page on him as well.. not that I can read it!) Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:50, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Fails WP:NBAND. Unsourced except for a very brief interview. An attempt to WP:INHERIT notability from the fact that two of its members later became notable. From the lead, "Electric Sheep was a garage rock band founded in the early 1980s that found no success..." Narky Blert (talk) 20:00, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Several new references added, dead links removed. I think the band that produced two of the most important musicians of '90s rock is worth an article. Nareek (talk) 22:48, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - References have been added, *however* most of these seem to be talking about the Band members in the context of their later, more succusseful bands - not specifically establishing any notability for Electric Sheep itself. Deathlibrarian (talk) 13:00, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Delete - This is a high school band that trivially includes two people who achieved notability later in life. Very definitely fails WP:GNG as all coverage is trivial. Power~enwiki (talk) 03:48, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Reframe as List of Electric Sheep alumni or Delete. The argument that there are several notable alumni sounds like WP:INHERIT. Normally I would be looking for an excuse to invoke WP:ATD, but since there's more than one legitimate target, that doesn't work. Maybe a list of redirects is the right solution? If not, then delete. -- RoySmith(talk)18:54, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Can someone explain to me how this fails WP:BAND #6 which explicitly says that being an ensemble that contains two or more independently notable musicians indicates notability? Regards SoWhy08:05, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Relisted for answering of SoWhy's question above
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NördicNightfury08:58, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. On a side note, thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion. However I beg you in the future to please be pithy in your comments. Confine yourself to what is germane to the discussion and avoid posting walls of text. Make your point(s), but be brief! Ad Orientem (talk) 14:58, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The claim to notability is as a "media, entertainment and technology entrepreneur and inventor"; however, this does not appear to be backed up by reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject. A closer examination of the references show citations to the websites of companies he is affiliated with; his own websites containing primary source material, qontinuum.org or wildernessofmirrors.org; jfk conspiracy websites such as jfklancer.com and maryferrell.org; or links referring to the KGB or Oleg Nechiporenko that do not even mention him. There are a few brief mentions in reliable sources in March 1992 that note he was the agent for a group of former KGB agents that wanted to sell their stories: [60][61]. If there was an article for the KGB Foreign Intelligence Veterans Association, I would support a redirect to that. Location (talk) 19:58, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep (+Edit|Merge - see new note below): Googling "Brian Litman KGB", Brian D. Litman +KGB or even "Brian Litman MP3 or "Brian Litman +MP3" shows many 'secondary sources' which in the coming days we will seek to identify herein for the debate (beyond what already is referenced). There is another "Brian Litman" who is in finance at Tribune Media Company (which inflates the desired search somewhat). There is also a "Brian Litman" who is some kind of self-help guru. Upon deeper scrutiny multiple references on the true Subject can be found. Look close and scroll more carefully.
In the question of relations to KGB Colonel Oleg Nechiporenko, Litman's connection to him was made absolutely clear by Nechiporenko himself. This is in the preface (page ix) of his book "Passport to Assassination" [62]. Nechiporenko -by his own hand- credited its existence to Litman [63]. This, while also mentioning Litman's contractual relations with about 500 other KGB spies, -abundantly referenced- (L.A. Times, Chicago Tribune, Newsweek, etc.).
The omission from Nechiporenko's own Wikipedia Article is merely a hole in the complete historical record. Indeed, it demonstrates that Wikipedia is not infallable - but nevertheless fixable. May we also add that this history is 24 years old - and long before the Internet was as developed as it is today. Many references would have had to be sourced with difficulty by the Article originators.
This editor will try to improve the Nechiporenko article - as it is missing important details. We can also write small history of FIVA (Foreign Intelligence Veterans Association). Probably just a "stub".
Let us also not only focus on Litman's generation-old KGB relationships. As we write this, we are listening to MP3 music on my PC with an older version of Winamp. (Because iTunes eats too much RAM!). Litman co-founded the Advanced Multimedia Products (AMP) firm with fellow (and "notability"-unchallenged Wikipedia subject) Tomislav Uzelac. AMP later became PlayMedia Systems (also needs an Article) and licensed AMP to the guys who slapped a Windows UI on it to create "Win-Amp" (again Winamp article needs clarity). This was the player which fostered the MP3 music era. Is being the co-founder of the firm which created the MP3 engine powering a lot of today's music not "notable"?
So, we would argue that Litman's notability is as much a function of his impact on digital music as was his facilitation of the release of KGB archival material on Lee Harvey Oswald via his Article-defined relations with KGB. We can try to address editorial concerns and list herein additional supportive references. But again, the 90's was not known for server farms loaded with the depth of linkable material we have today - and it seems the existing list of documentary proof is already pretty extensive. That said, in a way it is good that this was flagged in that it may stimulate enriching the factual content of related Articles.Огнемет (talk) 00:45, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
— We have previously made numerous small edits, in the past, without registration. Determined we may as well create a persona - given how evermore interesting the World has become :) Огнемет (talk • contribs).
We would like to kindly request an extension of the debate period, by another week, in order to get clearer consensus and to get arguments from other -uninvolved- editors. Огнемет (talk) 00:45, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete — Of interest is the claim at the Tomislav Uzelac article (also linking to a self-published personal site). [64] makes no mention and the previously existing AMP (MP3 software) article was PROD-deleted for lack of notability. In case this article passes AfD as keep or no-consensus, there is much to fix with it (although I admit that AfD is not a replacement for fixing)... It is important to consider the "significant coverage" and "reliable" points of WP:GNG and WP:NOTINHERITED. —PaleoNeonate - 01:45, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Erratum: To publicly call the publishing of computer scientist Tomislav Uzelac's 1996 "readme.txt" legal page as emanating from a "self-published personal site" is not factually correct.
Worse, it could cast an ugly light on the integrity of Uzelac, now a successful Steam game developer [1]. I don't think the Editor in question intended that.
To wit: the Editor cited [2] and incorrectly represented it as a "self-published personal site".
Uzelac is a Croatian. As his Wikipedia entry shows, he graduated from the University of Zagreb - not Utah. See: [3].
In fact, this URL was drawn from the legally-required credits page in the distribution for an early version of WinAmpcreated at the University of Utah. UTAH.EDU.
It was either posted by WinAmp creators Dmitry Boldyrev or Justin Frankel. Windows & AMP = WinAmp. Both Boldyrev and Frankel were the students who implemented AMP with a Windows interface. This readme.txt page was legally bound to be posted in the application if used non-commercially.
So now one wonders, whether this good Editor, before publicly publishing this comment as material evidence for a "Delete", might have voted differently had he taken the time to more carefully check the "Wayback Machine" URL.
Accordingly, to correct the historical record and address further concerns, I took the initiative to modestly update and enhance the Mario Kovač and Tomislav Uzelac Wikipedia entries. I have made independently-sourced citational improvements.
I also implore Editors and Administrators to please take note of brief supportive references from these articles on music technology / MP3 history: [4][5].
AMP, (whose own article was inexplicably deleted in 2009) had its origins as Uzelac's student thesis for an MP3 Decoder under the tutelage of University of Zagreb computer science head mentor Kovač.[6].
Kovač was eventually introduced to Litman by Kovač's star pupil Uzelac. Together they formed PlayMedia, where they jointly collaborated on projects referenced in the Litman Article and were jointly granted a United States Patent for sponsored music distribution [7].
And please kindly take notice of the attribution of Inventor to Litman (along with PlayMedia co-founders Uzelac, Kovač and Runje).
In any case, the Uzelac article certainly needs improvement. And I would also submit that AMP should not have been summarily deleted 7 years before and the notable firm PlayMedia justly should go from Red to Blue should some engaged digital music historian wish to write an Article.Огнемет (talk) 20:02, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Erratum 2: I am very sorry, PaleoNeonate, but I am afraid something may have confused you.
(1) I think you mean the precise URL on the Uzelac website which is not merely [1] but rather [2]
(2) If the intended URL above is opened you will find a Croatian language website for the "Vidi e-novation Contest".
(3) As simple Google English to Croatian conversion clearly shows that this website is for a multi-corporation sponsored Croatian IT Hero-type contest, sponsored by a zillion European tech firms like T-Mobile's Croatian Telecom, Microsoft, Ericsson, ad nauseum.
Uzelac is referenced therein ... because he is something of a national hero to Croatians. Kind of a Nikola Tesla "lite".
The Google EN to HR translation referencing Uzelac is:
For example, the public is poorly known fact that Tomislav Uzelac, a student of the Faculty of Electrical Engineering and Computing, invented and patented the first MP3 decoder and thus allow the popularization of MP3 players around the world. The goal of the Vidi e-novation awards in Croatia stimulate inventions just such discoveries, present them to domestic and international public as rounded products.
But by this, I submit that you actually have supported a Keep argument. Uzelac is a Croatian national hero[3] (Control+F Uzelac).
And Litman was his single, original business-managing partner in an important early technology that facilitated the global proliferation of MP3 music.
(And just for the record, the Croatian website was slightly wrong (or mis-translated), Litman and Uzelac never patented MP3, they marketed a very-efficient, but copyrighted variant of the MP3 ISO Standard.) Огнемет (talk) 00:18, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note to Fellow Editors (and Administrators): As I have spent more time reviewing this rather long Article, the essential editor in me concludes that a rational solution would be to engage in some skillful surgery on the Article. This, to avoid "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". Some Siamese Twins need to be separated here. I would propose to do what first submitter User:Arrant Errant might have done at the get go.
To wit:
(1) Tighten the Article and delete extraneous information.
(2) Address reliability and relevance of source materials.
(3) Identify relevant content from several paragraphs and either Delete or Merge into new or existing Articles|Stubs. For example, Kostikov, Yatskov, Oleg Nechiporenko, Semichastny, Oswald in Mexico City, PlayMedia, Napster, etc. (JFK's 100th got me thinking again and I am conducting research on digital music - which indeed, brought me to this Article.)
(4) Ensure conformance with Wikipedia policies (to the degree I can decode its 'military-like' acronyms).
If other interested Administrators or Editors do not object, I would undertake this over the next week or so. Naturally, all Edits would be addressable by the Community. As an old Article tweaker, but new Registrant, I would welcome the expert commentary of others. Огнемет (talk) 03:44, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"I would undertake this over the next week or so" Considering WP:COI (evidence of which is WP:SPA), you ideally should not edit the article yourself, but request changes on its talk page... —PaleoNeonate - 06:14, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"You and others are welcome to continue editing the article during the discussion period. Indeed, if you can address the points raised during the discussion by improving the article, you are encouraged to edit a nominated article (noting in the discussion that you have done so if your edits are significant ones)."
This is why I suggested that I tighten the article. I believe it worthy, but ... obese.
Secondly, the directive also stated (to this newbie):
* Moving the article while it is being discussed can produce confusion (both during the discussion and when closing using semi-automated closing scripts). If you do this, please note it on the deletion discussion page, preferably both at the top of the discussion (for new participants) and as a new comment at the bottom (for the benefit of the closing administrator).
Editors: I was merely following Wikipedia's own guidelines as I understood them to apply to my proposal. It was not my intention to rain on anyone's parade.
(3) Location I understand that you don't find the Article subject Litman interesting.
And, as the Article referenced, so did Chairmen of the Soviet KGB.
Our differing perspectives notwithstanding, as I have said - I am new. As explained in (2) above, I followed what I interpreted as Wikipedia directions.
I was embarrassed to appear recalcitrant via all-caps text at 04:07, 12 June 2017 [2] regarding the re-emplacement of the Wikipedia-directed "Advisory".
What had happened is that I had multiple browser tabs open while editing. After a few minutes, I got a false reading that this "Top Placement" I thought was mandated - didn't "catch". I was not trying to eclipse you. It was a browser cache deception.
The fact is that I am conducting research for a book about the "Digital Music Wars" of the late '90's and early 2000's. I found utility via Wikipedia from the Article in question - and numerous others like: Gerry Kearby, Phil Wiser, Larry S. Miller and PressPlay, who were really notable in digital music's development but were in the shadows of the Steve Jobs's, Sean Parker's and Shawn Fanning's of the world. (Litman's JFK and KGB bits were simply a bonus). I hope interview to him in the future. Огнемет (talk) 23:49, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: In case this article gets deleted (I'm not the one who will decide this), if you want you can download its full source code here before it does. —PaleoNeonate - 01:24, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for that tip PaleoNeonate. :) Having become more familiar with the inner-workings of Wikipedia, I did that - along with making a plain .pdf.
You Said: "Googling on three different WWW search engines reveals no reputable secondary sources."
I Reply: Yes. There is a huge problem when using search engines. They yield far few hits with <"Brian D. Litman +MP3"> instead of the superior <"Brian Litman" +MP3> or <"Brian Litman" +KGB>. Please try it. Litman's middle initial is best - dropped.
The German Connection: I located additional WP:RS material to further address Notability objections. These relate to Litman's negotiations with German media colossus Bertelsmann.
See: [1][2][3] (Google Translate for German works clear enough).
These WP:RS materials should be included the Napster section of the Litman Article and/or Napster's own. One clearly references Litman and the other - his firm. These show international notability in Europe's biggest market.
Other International Recognition: Litman is internationally notable enough to be wished "Happy Birthday" (and appear in alongside Billy Joel) in Haaretz, Israel's most prominent newspaper[4] (see very bottom).
By the way, I have a question: I consider both Litman and Phil Wiser to be equal digital music innovators. Mr. Wiser is highly accomplished. Can someone kindly explain to me the secret to the endurance of Wiser's Article? It has navigated through at least 40 edits in Wikipedia since 2007. Look at it. 10 years later. It uses superlatives like "He ... is amazing." And further cites as as a Source: "His Own Son". Yet after 9 months, Mr. Litman's Article gets "no quarter". And understanding the motivation behind the desire to commit this information to an early death truly piques my curiosity.
Sorry if long-winded, but Wikipedia is the de facto repository of human knowledge now. And as Hippocrates said: First, do no harm".
Here are yet more independent third party sources to address Location's objections (I have located scores - 17 years after the fact):
I hope to wind down my defenses for the worthiness of the Article with some conclusions about the Litman - JFK - KGB dynamic and discuss the issue of the etiology of primary sources cited - and why they may be used in a case like this (if I understood the WP policies correctly).
I am glad I found myself researching PlayMedia and Litman on 5 June.
Delete The page when I first saw it made implied accusations of him of being a spy, repeatedly, with no secondary sources supporting the claim. Apart from that, there's no claim of notability. Power~enwiki (talk) 05:07, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Power~enwiki (talk): I am afraid I don't know how you arrived at this conclusion, the article merely stated common Soviet Intelligence operational procedure concerning foreigners conducting business with organizations at the governmental or Party CPSU levels. But, your time spent with editorial improvement are noted and appreciated. (And I kindly ask you to leave my legitimate response to you here on the AfD talk page which must certainly be OK.) litman_bd (talk) litman_bd (talk) 02:28, 19 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
FURTHER:
Located here: User:Litman bdUser talk:Litman bd or exactly [1] is the text which Power~enwiki reverted and indicated to me was "improperly placed". I am confused. The [i] banner and "Welcome" did not indicate that article subjects were banned from commented on their own AfDs nor defined a restriction in length. Is this not an open forum?
I have honored Powers' direction and placed my explanation and defense of the situation on my own talk page at: I would attempt a revert but per Power, I am apparently missing something. Will not revert against more experienced Editor's will. Asking all judicious editors to kindly review [2]. I apologize for any breach of protocol and will seek {Administrator} help. See also explanatory comment to AfD initiator: User:Location
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Sources need not only to be reliable but independent, the two cited articles mentioned above are an interview with the corporation's CEO and a news release from the company.
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Nothing seems to have changed since Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Donald Panther-Yates. Fringe author, no reliable sources shown or found by me discussing him sufficiently to meet GNG. It appears that Bardill's review (note that her field is indigenous literature in any case[66] may not have been read by the editor adding it but simply copied from somewhere, eg here as the quoted text is identical. Doug Wellertalk08:20, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The references show that he has written two papers, one of which has been reviewed. That doesn't constitute notability. My own search came up with nothing better. Maproom (talk) 22:31, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The visa policy article was created by the same author around the same time, however my personal view at the time was to let that pass and see that in a similar light as all the other articles that exist on most countries (Category:Visa policy by country). However, it may probably be a better solution to redirect Hajj visa policy to Visa policy of Saudi Arabia and make a few tweaks there. The main concern I have with the Umrah Passport article in this nomination, is that it is supposed to serve as a universal, global article how to obtain a passport in your country of nationality in the first place. Firstly, what is described in this article is not universally true (reference to National ID cards as required - not many countries actually have them in the first place) and it will have thousands of exceptions by country/state/district/city office taking passport applications - also depending on the applicants status in that country. Therefore, such an article can probably never reliably exist with all its complexity. pseudonymJake Brockmantalk08:39, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete This is clearly a "How-to manual" and as such does not belong in Wikipedia. WP:NOT says "Instruction manuals. While Wikipedia has descriptions of people, places and things, an article should not read like a "how-to" style owner's manual, cookbook, advice column (legal, medical or otherwise) or suggestion box. This includes tutorials, instruction manuals, game guides, and recipes. Describing to the reader how people or things use or do something is encyclopedic; instructing the reader in the imperative mood about how to use or do something is not.[4]" That said, these special passports might well be notable enough for an article, but this is not that article. Edison (talk) 19:22, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Peter Videnieks was created in February 2009 by User:ThsQ. ThsQ was a sockpuppeteer who used several accounts, including at least User:Hag2, User:ThsQ, User:Anne Teedham, and User:Merry Yellow. I'll use Hag2 to refer to this person. Hag2's interest was in creating content on the Inslaw law suit. The law suit, which lasted in various forms over ten years, eventually acquired very conspiratorial overtones, some of which can still be seen in the articles on Michael Riconosciuto, Danny Casolaro, and Earl Brian. Hag2 was the top contributor on all of these articles (in addition to the Peter Videnieks article, Hag2 also created the Earl Brian article), and filled them with much conspiratorial bilge that still hasn't been cleaned up. The Casolaro article is certainly notable, but Riconosciuto and Brian are questionable, and Videnieks is simply not notable. The article has had no substantive edits since Hag2's sockpuppets were banned, and it is apparently linked to only by the pages mentioned above. Rgr09 (talk) 01:01, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: To discuss whether to merge/redirect to Inslaw
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, SoWhy07:51, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Location has suggested the article might pass on WP:POLOUTCOMES #2. Summarizing Videnieks's government career, he was a contracting officer in the Justice Department and Customs Service, and I've found references to him working for the IRS, but no dates or details. These are non-notable positions as far as I can tell. He did, however, serve from 2008-2012 on the United States-China Economic and Security Review Commission. I've gone through all the commissioners, and contrary to my original impression, their service on the commision is the main content in a couple of articles (Larry Wortzel, Michael R. Wessel), so I guess its good enough for a stub article. If there's agreement, I'll withdraw the suggestion for deletion and clean up the Inslaw conspiracy coatrack. Rgr09 (talk) 12:00, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete lacks significant coverage in RS to meet GNG. I see no need for a redirect.Dlohcierekim (talk) 10:53, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Some of the "Sources" were added after the text was written, by another editor, and there are no footnotes to show how any of the sources support the text.
Weak Delete I don't believe I can support a redirect to the German-language Wikipedia here. This may be notable in Germany, but it doesn't appear to be notable in the English-speaking world. Power~enwiki (talk) 21:18, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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A likely non-notable Indian filmmaker. Was previously tagged BLPPROD but now it has some references. ~1000 Google hits for the person, ~400 for the studio. —Guanaco06:22, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Non-notable filmmaker, no significant coverage in independent reliable sources and no major awards. A Google news search result for "Saif Baidya" found only this which is a passing mention that does not establish notability. GSS (talk|c|em) 10:53, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Number of G-hits is not relevant. Lacks sufficient coverage to meet GNG.Dlohcierekim (talk) 00:08, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete It seems a marketing tagline for Sensorica, circa 2011 through 2013 or so. Long past time to delete, since no evidence the term ever caught on with anyone else. W Nowicki (talk) 18:15, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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This article relates to a very specific set of events related to Peter Hain in 2008. As far as I can tell from researching this article, this "organisation" was never really a working think-tank and even if it was I can't establish any notability. The article on Peter Hain has a section that mentions the Progressive Policies Forum. That seems sufficient to me. Therefore I nominate this article for deletion. Seaweed (talk) 12:06, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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No evidence of any notability. Plenty of evidence of marketing speak. Not a single useful reference to support notability. Searches yield the same paucity of sources/ Fails WP:GNGVelellaVelella Talk 14:31, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Velella,
I've received your message about the DriveWorks page being up for deletion due to marketing speak. Apologies, I'm new to editing Wikipedia (If you check my account it was only set up last week). I read your guide about how to edit as I wanted to update the page to include the new edition of our software in the 'editions' list. I noticed that the description of what DriveWorks is wasn't very clear so I copied a couple of paragraphs over from our website to try and give a better description of what the software does - purely to be informative and not to try and market the software. I didn't realise it would be classed as marketing speak or that it needed to have references / evidence of notability. I have removed the bits I copied over and put the page back to how it was before. My apologies, I will re-read your guide to give me a better idea of how to correctly edit a Wikipedia entry so I can include the correct types of content. I will wait to hear from you before I edit the page again. Sorry about this. I hope I have formatted this reply correctly. Danielle DanielleDriveWorks (talk) 15:22, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominating after prod declined. Bemuses me that I've become deletionary in this topic area but there is really no evidence that these individual events are notable enough to support their own articles. NorthAmerica1000 declined the 2017 article on the basis that "Source searches demonstrate potential notability." however I have had a pretty good hunt and have not been able to find much if any third-party coverage to establish this. The rest were declined on the basis of a proposed merge to Miss Texas USA, however I think at best they should be redirected, I can't see what could be merged other than the winner information which is already in the table on that page. Hence, bringing it here for discussion. --- PageantUpdater (talk) 15:08, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete All I'm all for reducing the proliferation of pages about early rounds of pagents and queens that are mearly name checked when they win. Anything PagentUpdater wants to delete gets my enthusiastic support. Legacypac (talk) 07:51, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete All there's no reason to keep redirects for these terms back to Miss Texas USA, and that article already has a table of winners as well. The Template:Miss Texas USA page may need to be removed as well, but that's for a different forum. Power~enwiki (talk) 21:21, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Redirect to Mike Smithson (politics); not independently notable, just a political blog. The content is largely unsourced original research so a redirect would be preferable. Anything useful (if at all) can be picked up from the article history. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:59, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep - The amount of material available for this subject essentially trumps it. Check Talk:Madonna Studies where @Chrishonduras: has meticulously pulled all the sources and journalistic and academia talking about this. Also I find this nomination itself to be faulty being that there is no argument as to why its not notable and no indication that the nominator actually researched. —IB[ Poke ]04:07, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I don't think so, is clear that needs to be expand but there is a tons of material about this term created by academics and journalists alike. There is several references with the origins of the term, the legacy and impact of the "Madonna Studies". Just double-check this article in Spanish Wikipedia with a lot of reference in English and/or Spanish. If you're still in disagree, please specify that probably I will provide references and show you the contrary. Chrishonduras(Diskussion)07:27, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Delete - Just because there are studies on a particular subject doesn't mean that those studies are notable in the eyes of the public. Nobody remembers every single detail of a famous person's life, and not every academic study has any real academic value. Studies of pop-culture figures, or any other subject for that matter, should "stand the test of time" before they get articles of their own.
Now if you want to include a reference to these studies in a single sentence on the article page for Madonna, then go right ahead. But even that might be considered trivia on the Madonna page. Greggens (talk) 19:11, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Greggens, you already nominated it for deletion and this is achieved by consensus, not voting, so don't add comments like that. Statements like "Just because there are studies on a particular subject doesn't mean that those studies are notable in the eyes of the public" are the very opposite of the essence of WP:NOTABILITY. "Nobody remembers every single detail of a famous person's life" – The ton of references present in the talk page disagrees and even points to the fact that your WP:CRYSTAL allegation whether it stood the test of time or not, falls flat. Because, people are talking about it enough to write articles and books. Comments like "and not every academic study has any real academic value" are also the reason I believe you do not present any concrete evidence as to why this article should be deleted. You need to prove then that all these sources and academic material has no value as you say, until then I will say keep for this article. —IB[ Poke ]08:41, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm back. So, my opinion about your proposition is a strong NOT and oppose:
One of the problems that probably you have is generalize, like compare the situation with other pop-culture figures. This a HUGE mistake. Each artist (or pop icon), virtually is different: impact, legacy, longevity, sales etc. I agree that some examples like courses/studies of artists in one time, in one or two universities for example: Beyoncé, Lady Gaga or Miley Cyrus are a trivial fact. But with Madonna is different, she has passed the "test of the time" and the "Madonna Studies" became a term (formal or informal and de facto). The origins of this term are from the late of 1980s (ref), reached a peak during the 1990s and continues during the following decades. Across ALL United States with Harvard, Princeton or UCLA, the term and Madonna courses was common in other coutries like Netherlands (1997) or Spain (2015) just to mention some examples.
Is your comment that sometimes academic studies don't have a real academic value, but we don't have again to generalize. This term reached an "ambivalent" status and generated a big debate among the academics (ref1 or ref2), however there is a huge context not only based on her (life or status), is based in several topics like feminism, sexualism, racism, gender, popular culture and even death and are always related with Madonna. Other topics are ageism, money, the future or musicology and the list is going and going (1 or 2) .
WORLDWIDE VIEW (please): we can easily find references about this term in other languages and pre-Wikipedia sources if is neccesary avoid primary sources. I can manage some of them like Spanish and I will give an example about this of the major newspaper in Colombia, El Tiempo: ref and is not a simple news, is a critic and analysis about this term. I can provide more references, but I think that is unncessary like if someone is asking if United States is a country.
So I still support keep the article, because is relevant and qualifies by Wikipedia's guidelines. Now, is a disaster, but can have an appropiate site with sections like "background", "criticsm" or the "impact" in Madonna's own career and for the several divisions of cultural studies. Just to recap, I don't think that is a topic that we need to try lightly, especially when various authors said that she served a way of the future of feminism, gender relations, american culture and for the future in general perspective: 1, 2 or 2. Chrishonduras(Diskussion)09:11, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Subject of significant discussion in media, e.g. [71][72][73] and more already discussed. There are articles in major publications and coverage in academic books about the field of Madonna Studies, not just works analysing Madonna. The current article is very weak, but in principle notable. I added a bit to it anyway. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:20, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - It appears that this piece, with a substantially similar lead, was already once deleted, as it shows up on DELETED WIKI. That's enough for a speedy there. Beyond that, this appears to be a non-notable neologism, as there are no universities offering degrees in this "field," nor is a commonly accepted term at this point in time, according to my reading of the internet tea leaves. Thus, Fails GNG. Fan cruft? Or something worthy of a short section in the main Madonna bio? One of those. But this does not meet GNG muster for inclusion as an article, as it is not a topic that is the subject of multiple, independent, published sources of presumed reliability dealing substantially with the topic. Carrite (talk) 15:32, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I'm atonish about your comment... Try to read the comments above. I guess that everybody thinks that the current status sucks, but there is not trivial and there is a lot of comments and reviews about this topic from academia world and the press. How to try lightly something that easily has references and is accepted as a term?. Is still be relevant as the Reaganomics was or is. "There is no worse blind, than he who doesn't want to see". Regards, Chrishonduras(Diskussion)21:13, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. If the parent article is kept, please leave me a message and I'll consider undeleting for purposes of merging. SoWhy07:37, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Past Freddy Award nominations and recipients[edit]
Contested PROD. While these awards are given out at what appears to be a large ceremony, I'm not convinced that having a large list of previous nominees and recipients is entirely worthwhile, as the awards are for high school theatre in a region of the US. This isn't, after all, a Grammy or Oscar BigHaz - Schreit mich an02:33, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete While I'm willing to consider the notability of the parent article for [[The Freddy Awards], this article is a fork that lacks standalone notability. Alansohn (talk) 01:25, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, while I do wish to disclose that my high school was involved in the Freddy Awards and I created the article, I believe this article meets the general criteria guidelines (significant coverage has been shown through the success of the documentary about the awards "Most Valuable Player" and the widespread coverage its live program receives). I agree that the parent article is also notable but believe that this separate article is necessary because to merge the information contained within it into the parent article would significantly and non-constructively lengthen the parent article. To have that information available in a different article is much more appropriate.Daniel 02:43, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
Keep or merge to The Freddy Awards - See my arguments for keep on that AFD page. If the decision there is to keep that page (which I believe it should, as that pages currently satisfies WP:N and WP:RS) then I believe this information should be preserved either as a standalone article, or as a part of the Freddy Awards page. I would think the former makes more sense, but either would make sense to me. — HunterKahn18:38, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Since the article has been edited extensively during this AFD, consensus has become unclear and the later edits have convinced some editors (discounting the obvious SPA) that this subject meets GNG. With also the nominator agreeing that he would not have nominated the article in its current form, there is no consensus to delete at this point of time. SoWhy07:35, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Non-notable martial artist. Was deleted a few years ago, the recreator has repeatedly claimed that book sources exist but has refused to add any of them for months now. ★Trekker (talk) 16:43, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Nothing has really changed since the previous AfD discussion. There is a lack of significant independent coverage to meet WP:GNG. Seven of the nine citations point to the same BJJ Heroes page and that website doesn't meet the criteria for an reliable source. It's self-described as a website built for BBJ enthusiasts by a BJJ fan. The other two citations are not from independent sources. I also found no sources to show he ever competed at the world championships and there's nothing to show he meets the notability criteria for martial artists. Papaursa (talk) 19:39, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
UPDATE: In my defense, I take editing seriously, and I haven't had a Wikipedia account for very long. I won't go around casually modifying other articles from day to day without investing myself in a project. I'm interested in Progressive topics, as well as martial arts and Japanese history and culture. I hope to make additional contributions. When I have time to put my mind to another interesting project, I will focus on that and offer more participation, albeit with a degree of apprehension. For now, I am here because my first project, which I believed to be notable, has been nominated for deletion.ToddLara729 (talk) 16:20, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You probably don't have a "couple of days", also I think you will fail simply because the person is not notable. You have not edited the article ONCE since I last updated you, why havn't you added the sources and info already if it exists? Also, sign your comments.★Trekker (talk) 16:57, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Already listed here but the main one is that he simply doesn't seem to have done a single thing which would indicate notability. What awards has he won for example?★Trekker (talk) 17:31, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Rickson Gracie, who is widely referred to as the number one ranked BJJ fighter of all time almost by consensus, cited Stambowsky in one of the article references as the go-to technical role model when asked about the origins of the BJJ triangle choke during his lifetime. This high-level contribution to the BJJ core curriculum doesn't qualify as a single thing to indicate notability? In addition, with regard to awards, his medals are listed in the article and mentioned in the book, on web sites, and they are verifiable. Work with me, please. ToddLara729 (talk) 17:39, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
None of his championships seem to be notable in themselves and therefore do not lend notability to him as a athlete. I'm also not sure if being referred to by someone else in the sense you describe grants notability either. The one book reference you cited is also still just one. I have worked with you a lot so far. I have been very lenient towards you in general, I gave tons of advice and I waited over a month to give you a chanse to improve the article before taking it to AFD. Do not try to make this about me having an agenda against you or the article subject. I will leave the rest up to other editors and the closing admin but so far the sources still appear to be minor to me. Good luck with fixing the article.★Trekker (talk) 18:16, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Notable martial artist and a significant contributor to the style and early evolution of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, as independently cited by Kroyler Gracie, Renzo Gracie, and MMA hall-of-famer Rickson Gracie, citations sourced. Additional supportive references added to the article in response to notability concerns, including a book reference. More to come. ToddLara729 (talk) 18:26, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A lot has changed since the previous AfD discussion. Sources have been added. There is significant independent coverage to meet WP:GNG. Two of the now sixteen citations point to a book, three point to newspaper articles, three point to verifiable and credible statements that attest to the subject's development of core ground-fighting tactics and his notable contribution to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in general -- statements which were made by renowned martial artists. All citations are from independent sources. All of this, together with the listed and verifiable competition medals, show that the subject meets the notability criteria for martial artists. ToddLara729 (talk) 00:58, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know how you can claim the sources are independent when so many of them are from or about family members. The article now has 16 references listed--5 are from the same BJJ Heroes page (not reliable), one is an article on his son (who uses the Gracie name), at least three of them are passing mentions in lists of names, at least four are articles by family members, the New Haven articles both say "Marcio Stambowsky, a member of the Gracie family" but notability is not inherited, and the Weston article is from a local paper which talks about when he teaches classes and gives the school's address and website. All together this does not show significant and independent coverage from reliable sources. In addition, rank has never been considered a gauge of ntoability for martial arts articles on WP and his successes have not come at the highest level of the sport. Papaursa (talk) 01:56, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
These are not mere 'family members' but rather the leadership establishment of Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Respectfully your doubts about the statements of these BJJ authorities don't seem to be rational in that sense. Also, every web site provided as a reference has been marginalized and summarily deemed "not credible" or "not independent" for some reason. I just don't see any objectivity there. Finally, it's worth noting that by the strict (perhaps too narrow) notability standards you've assigned to this article regarding success at the so-called highest level of the sport (a level today that did not exist back then), the very founders of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu would be prime candidates for deletion. Check the many other standing Wikipedia articles about prominent BJJ figures, and you will clearly see that these rules have not been evenly applied. ToddLara729 (talk) 02:48, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"reference has been marginalized and summarily deemed "not credible" or "not independent" for some reason."
That's because they don't appear to be. Also, never never never ever bring up "what about this other article?" as an argument, that's directly against what you're supposed to do in a deletion debate.★Trekker (talk) 02:54, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Merely stating, "that's because they don't appear to be [credible]," doesn't appear to be a credible argument either. I am unfamiliar with the protocol regarding deletion debates, but I am making a good faith effort. I will only say this: when criteria are strictly applied in a way that seems selective or asymmetric, it raises legitimate questions about the fairness of the test. But since you have said that this is not considered an acceptable point of contention in this context, I won't repeat it. I'll just let my contribution stand on its own merit. ToddLara729 (talk) 03:18, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well for one if you want to know a good criteria for what makes a good source it's generally having a credited, paid and professional writer and editor. Who exactly authored most of your sources? These are blatantly obvious things to anyone who understand what a reliable source is. Books are good because they usually require a known author, editorial oversight and a professional publisher. Not just some fan-website.★Trekker (talk) 04:02, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I just added a 17th reference, from Gracie Magazine, which refers to Stambowsky as "one of the greatest Jiu-Jitsu competitors of the 1970’s and 80’s" before going on to give more details about his established reputation as a Jiu Jitsu player. There are hundreds of hits on Google from independent BJJ community references that all attest to his reputation using various, independent rhetorical nuances to corroborate and reconfirm his accomplishments. Should we dismiss all of this as a highly-coordinated, internet-wide conspiracy to fool Wikipedia? If I keep adding references, the list of citations will be longer than the article itself. At what point do we stop doubting the combined validity of all of these resources? "These ten are just fans. Those five are just small town journalists. Those two are just relatives. That book is just one book." Do we really need Anderson Cooper to co-sign before we can escape the abstract box of our notability rules to admit, if only with our common sense, that this is obviously a well-known, well-documented, notable martial artist? ToddLara729 (talk) 04:49, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well-known, important, famous and popular are not the same as notability. Wikipedia collects information about notable subject. None of what you've stated solves the main issue, few if any of our sources are reliable or notable themselves. To have your own wikipedia article you need to a have been the subject of extensive coverage in multiplereliableobjective sources. Relatives are not very objective, fans are not and amateur writers are not.★Trekker (talk) 05:29, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I understand and embrace your definition of notability, but there are some gray areas that are open to debate. It seems that I have already demonstrated that Stambowsky has been the subject of "extensive coverage" via "multiple sources." Your question is whether those multiple varied sources — from newspapers to online magazines to BJJ web sites — are "reliable and objective." I think we tread into some very murky waters in the attempt to make snap judgements about these sources, and we need to be very careful about it. Wikipedia should not be elitist in its philosophy, and I don't think it aims to be. We need to be open to the credibility of small publications. Take, for example, the last source I cited, which is Gracie Magazine. You are presumably dismissing that source, along with the others, as perhaps a family-run, fan-based, or amateur site. In reality, Gracie Magazine is a 25 year old Brazilian publication — it is the original BJJ publication, comparable to the American magazines Black Belt and Inside Karate. The publication has been reliably following and reporting the facts on the same Jiu Jitsu and MMA competitors that you would consider 'notable' according to your own criteria — the good and the bad, both inside and outside of the Gracie system. In other words, this is a credible third-party publication, yet you are assuming that it is an amateur or small-potatoes publication, not sufficiently credible, and/or somehow a source of propaganda put out by relatives or fans. Why is this? Do you make the assumption simply because the name Gracie is used in reference to Gracie Jiu Jitsu? What makes you think that this isn't an objective third party, along with all the others — the newspaper reporters, the book author? I don't think we can assume that Gracie Magazine cannot be objective about BJJ any more than we can assume that Sports Illustrated cannot be objective about sports. By the same token, the idea that more mainstream publications or perhaps corporate publications are automatically more objective, accurate, detached and/or immune to sensationalism or bias may also be an illusion. So, we need to be careful. We need to see the whole picture with regard to this historic sports figure and this article. You are saying that all of my stacked sources — near and far, from the US to Brazil, with many more to come — are (one-by-one) not acceptable, and you draw this conclusion based on a series of assumptions about apparent objectivity and reliability at a glance. I disagree. The sources are an objective, unrelated series of third parties that are reliable — both independently and collectively. They meet the criteria. That's where we differ. ToddLara729 (talk) 06:50, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, and thank you. One more point for the record: BJJ Heroes — another source that you dismissed — is an online publication with over a hundred thousand subscribers.ToddLara729 (talk) 07:25, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Lol, no, not even remotely, "a paying subscriber" is a consumer of the product and means that the site has paying customers. A professional writer is either employed or contracted by a company to work for them, same with the editor.★Trekker (talk) 14:28, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You would be assuming that a publication with over a hundred thousand paid subscribers would be unlikely to have a professional writer or editor, and that's not a logical assumption.ToddLara729 (talk) 14:54, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Why should I assume that? Are they really paid subscriber? Where does that say? Why aren't there a writer credited in any of your sources if they exist?★Trekker (talk) 15:05, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You shouldn't assume anything, and neither should I. You suggested, hypothetically, that it would make no difference if the 100,000 subscribers that I mentioned were paying subscribers. I responded that it should make a difference because it would then satisfy your "paid professional writer" criteria. I did this mostly to demonstrate, respectfully, that no matter what sources I cite, you will ultimately doubt their credibility, even when your previously-stated criteria is satisfied. Consensus will be impossible if you do this. ToddLara729 (talk) 15:19, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. I'm incredibly tired of this. The truth is simply that you're completely and probably purposely misinterpreting whatever it is I'm saying becuse you don't like the fact that near none of the sources you have seem to be good enough to prove this persons notability. I ask again, if the site has paid editors and writters, why are none of them credited? Again a subscriber is not a professional writter, a subscriber pays the company for a service, a writer gets payed by the company for their service.
Do you realize that those kinds of things are generaly needed to be concidered a reliable source and that if too few of your sources reach those conditions this person will have their article deleted no matter how many times you try to counter the arguments? The admin closing this debate will not care if you've made thousands of comments or "voted" how many times in different sections.
To be a reliable source you need to have a stable precence, esablished staff and a good reputation, that's why you need professional writers. Having 1000000000 or how many other subscribers means nothing, wether they are paying or not, which I'm not sure they are here in this case. (I can't even find where it says that they have that many subscribers.) Again, if the site in question has payed writers, why are they not credited in the source?
I'm not questioning some of your sources "just becuse", I don't think this is fun, I'm doing it becuse it seems awfully suspisious that even half of them would qualify as good sources from wikipedias point of view.★Trekker (talk) 17:19, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am as tired of this as you are, but I'm not going to sit back and let my contribution be deleted without a long, hard debate if I truly believe in the subject and the credibility of the sources. I have better things to do than to purposely misinterpret your comments, as you put it. As for 'voting' in different sections, I continued my discussion under a new heading because the long string of cumulatively indented paragraphs finally made your comments impossible to read on my cellular device. You're quite skeptical and suspicious of ulterior motives. Perhaps it serves you and Wikipedia well in certain contexts, but in this case it's beyond the pale. I'll continue to make my arguments ad nauseam. I'm looking for you to bend an inch or two, and I'd like to do the same, so that we can reach consensus. I believe that your assessment of the validity of the sources as well as your interpretation of Wikipedia's doctrine on reliable independent sources is, in this case, somewhat misguided. (To make that assertion is my right.) I have provided the best sources that I can up to this point, in good faith. I will continue to work on the problem.ToddLara729 (talk) 20:55, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am investigating the background of Gracie Mag to provide you with the names of their editor, but meawhile, take a look at this link. This is a hard copy of Gracie Mag that sells at newsstands for USD$8.50. Does this not appear to be a credible publication with a professional editorial staff?ToddLara729 (talk) 21:06, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Here, at long last, is a list of the professional editorial staff at Gracie Magazine. http://www.graciemag.com/en/staff/ I have gone to great lengths to satisfy your criteria. Are you now willing to meet me half way and accept, if with some trepidation, at least this source, if not the others?ToddLara729 (talk) 21:16, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Much ado has been made about the lack of credibility, particularly of the web sources cited in the article. They have been summarily dismissed, one-by-one, as everything from 'friends and family' to 'fan pages.' These assertions are unfair in that they use language that marginalizes solid sources with a broad audience and a respectable degree of independent credibility. The BJJ Heroes web site, for example, which has been shrugged off as a fan page, has paid advertisers and over 100,000 followers online. Gracie Mag is well known and existed as a printed, expertly illustrated, paid subscription magazine with almost 400,000 subscribers in both America and Brazil. They have utilized paid, professional sports writers and editors. In 2010, Gracie Mag published the following: "Macarrão was one of the greatest Jiu-Jitsu competitors of the 1970’s and 80’s, famous for his notorious leg game, which his friends called the 'guillotine guard' – anyone to get caught in it was a dead duck. Either they got swept or tapped out, as remembered to this day." This is a powerful statement from a reliable third-party source. It is a source that has been cited in the article. It makes assertions that support notability. We cannot simply dismiss, collectively, this and a host of other sources, ranging from newspapers to pages in a book to renowned martial arts leaders, based on negative assumptions and blanket skepticism.ToddLara729 (talk) 16:37, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm replying down here since you're having a hard time with reading this.
Neither I nor wikipedia is missguided in our guidelines. You either accept the guidelines about reliable sources or you can create a discussion with the foundation to have them changed, which can't really be done here. I was mainly talking about the BJJ Heroes page which you have repeatedly claimed has professional writer, but still can't name them, which makes me question wather you really have any idea what you're talking about or if you've really read wikipedia guidlines.
The gracie mag "article" which you've cited here is literally less than a hundred words, and was apperantly written by some guy named "xdevs", are you kidding me?
I've looked trought all of the refs you have and out of all of them the only one which seems to be even remotly acceptable is thewestonforum.com article and the books. I seriously doubt that's going to be enough.★Trekker (talk) 22:22, 31 May 2017 (UTC),[reply]
I haven't yet looked into BJJ Heroes payroll. Not once did I claim that BJJ Heroes staff were paid writers. I only countered your hypothetical suggestion that their 100,000 followers would be irrelevant EVEN IF they turned out to be paying subscribers. (I.e., 100,000 paying subscribers would presumably create a financial incentive to maintain paid editors and writers, but I was only replying to your hypothetical statement.) I did say that Gracie Mag has a paid, professional editorial staff, and that's what I was referring to. You totally dismissed the links I sent you regarding the Gracie Mag's credibility, which you originally expressed concern about, and instead you're now questioning the length of the article and the author's nom de plume. I'll try to establish the writer's identity. Let's not bicker. If you're going to make your case, I think you can do so without being adversarial or telling me that I have no idea what I'm talking about. I don't think you want to discourage new or inexperienced users from making contributions, do you?ToddLara729 (talk) 22:55, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have identified the writer who uses the alias XDEVS. He is a Brazilian, and his name is Felipe Pavao. He is a professional freelance writer and WordPress developer who writes independent articles for Gracie Magazine. He can be accessed through this URL: https://codeable.io/developers/felipe-pavao/. I used this link to reach out to one of his colleagues by private message to be absolutely certain and to reconfirm his identity. Please feel free to verify all of it. ToddLara729 (talk) 23:17, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If you think it would be useful, and if it would help us to move toward consensus, I will find a way to add Felipe Pavao's name to the GracieMAG source reference along with a contact link.ToddLara729 (talk) 23:24, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The amount of subscribers ARE irrelevant. Lots of sites with paying customers do not have professional and established writers and editors. Again, if there is a professional writer to many of these sources, why have you not credited a single one in this article and why do they seem to not be credited in the sources? I've asked this many times before, but am yet to receive an awnser.
Gracie Mag's general credibility is utterly freaking irrelevant as well when the SPECIFIC source you're using does not seem to have a professional writer and is less than a hundred words long. Not particularly great quality control on that one it seems for a source which you claim is reliable. Also, yes lenght matters, that's what EXTENSIVE coverge usualy is, like I said before, there is a need for extensive coverage in multiple unbiased reliable sources.
Why the do I have to explain this too you again? Go back and read trought wikipedia guidlines agian please and maybe you will accept that these things are not negotiable and actually really clear.★Trekker (talk) 23:26, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Update: That link doesn't work for me and it still seems incredibly dubious that a writer that doesn't go by his real name is worth much of anything in this debate when the work in question is still increadibly short anyway and should be dismised. Also, I'm not going to verify something for you, the burden is on you to prove stuff.★Trekker (talk) 23:35, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As an offering of compromise, I would like to invite you to remove from the article any sources or claims that you feel are wholly unreliable or unsubstantiated, pending additional sources that rise to consensus. Please edit, reduce or sanitize the article to your satisfaction in exchange for a NEUTRAL or KEEP.ToddLara729 (talk) 23:30, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've tried my best to find common ground with you, establish sources of notability, and give you what you require. I don't think I can do any more.ToddLara729 (talk) 23:34, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just let the record show that I was the one offering concessions while you didn't budge an inch, using terms like 'non-negotiable' and 'the burden is on you' in what should have been a quest for the highly-coveted Wikipedia consensus.ToddLara729 (talk) 23:43, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The burden is on you is a guideline form wikipeida. Not something I made up. You need to prove stuff, not expect people to do the job for you.
The problem is not that the sources are unreliable in the sense that they are likely wrong and should immediately be removed but that they in no way lend themselves to be used as credit for proving notability. Me removing them won't help a thing. Instead of debating me in a battle you won't win you can scan the web and books for more sources. You have two books and one decent websource right now, maybe just look for more. You kept claiming before that you found way more book sources, add them if you want to.
There is no common ground to reach. Just so you know: I'm not the closing admin, I'm not going to be the one who deletes this article if it is deleted. It's him/her you need to impress and convince with sources. Trying to find common ground with me is useless. I'm simply trying to explain to you and make you understand why these sources probably won't be enough to get the article to be kept. I don't want to scare you away from editing wikipedia but you need to accept that not everything you make will be kept. I don't think there is a single long-time editor who hasn't had one of their articles deleted. Don't get to attached to them, it's not personal. I once made an article which has extensive sources from places like Canoe and CBC but that was still put up for deletion, (it was no consensus in the end.)★Trekker (talk) 23:50, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, and I thank you for a spirited and exhaustive debate. I will make one last attempt to research and add another round of sources, per your recommendation, but I will end the discussion here no matter what, as I have argued my case from every possible angle already. Your advice is much appreciated. Cheers. ToddLara729 (talk) 00:01, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment ToddLara729, please do not repeatedly continue to vote to keep the article. You are entitled to comment as much as you want, but are only allowed one vote. I have struck your votes after the first one. The problem is that your sources simply don't meet the criteria established under WP:GNG which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". At least, I don't think they meet that standard. Papaursa (talk) 01:22, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't realize the bold heading at the start of a new thread represented a vote. Thanks for the format corrections. Identifying which sources should be deemed reliable and independent is neither a simple nor a straightforward task. I believe my sources are largely independent of the subject of Stambowsky, even if a number of them have a connection to the martial arts. There is no proximal benefit in making false claims or elevating the accomplishments of one particular Jui Jitsu player over another. The stated purpose of independence is "to protect the project from people using Wikipedia for self-promotion, personal financial benefit, and other abuses," but "independence does not imply even-handedness." In other words, BJJ enthusiasts and publications can still be independent and unbiased, as long as there is no personal benefit in endorsing or promoting the subject. I promised that I would curb my comments after making one last attempt to make this project notable and worth saving. I've done my best. Thank you for participating. ToddLara729 (talk) 03:51, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Update Additional magazine reference added, authored by "award-winning newspaper reporter Kyle Nagel," which calls Stambowsky "one of the Famous Five." Book reference added — Stambowsky is included in a catalog of "100 of the Best Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Fighters of All Time" by Alex Trost. Links to Maccabiah Games added — the third largest international, multi-nation sporting even in the world (after Olympics and Pan American) in which Stambowsky brought home a bronze medal for Brazil. Reference work continues. ToddLara729 (talk) 17:51, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Update Sources investigated, reference section overhauled entirely, professional editors and writers cited by name, additional references added to establish and reinforce the existence of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." ToddLara729 (talk) 02:07, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In closing: On February 13, 2017, as recorded in the edit history of the article, a tentative ruling on the notability of Stambowsky was made by a Wikipedia administrator. When this article was first nominated for speedy deletion, proposed by the same contributors who have made their cases above, an administrator by the name of Basalisk overruled the speedy deletion proposal on the grounds that "claims in the article would confer notability per WP:SPORTSPERSON if confirmed." (See the administrator's comment in article revision history.) These claims have now been reinforced by a series of expanded and credible third-party references, a number of whom are "professional writers." In addition to the original claims, which have already been acknowledged as notable if confirmed, I have also been able to establish in a more precise manner that this individual has indeed "competed at the highest level of the sport" in a "world championship" international contest of top athletes from 37 countries — in fact the third largest international sporting event after the Olympic and Pan American games. This individual is also, according to independent sources, one of the so-called "Famous Five" renowned Rolls Gracie masters, all notable by definition for their contributions to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. All four of the others in the group have their own Wikipedia articles, which are linked to the Rolls Gracie article under the "notable students" section. There is therefore yet another Wikipedia notability precedent implied in that inclusion. In effect, while I concede that notability is neither inherited nor conferred by rank alone, it has been effectively documented on Wikipedia as well as via multiple third-party sources that the "Famous Five" are unique and notable figures in their own right. The unique notability of Stambowsky is chronicled and duly referenced in the article. I am therefore compelled to highlight and defend the administrator's prior conclusion. Marcio Stambowsky is a notable person by Wikipedia's standards. Please keep the article.ToddLara729 (talk) 15:24, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: To discuss edits after the first two delete !votes.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, SoWhy19:32, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I appreciate the original points made by the other participants in this debate, and as a newcomer I value their guidance and have attempted to follow their advice to improve the article. As noted in the relisting comment above, this article was edited substantially after the original deletion arguments ended. New content and highly detailed references were added in order to address the specific concerns of the two deletion !voters and to build consensus. Entries previously acknowledged by an administrator (see In Closing above) as notability-conferring statements, per WP:SPORTSPERSON, have been expanded and confirmed by independent, published, non-trivial secondary sources. The deletion !voters have graciously chosen not to dispute the updated material or the expanded reference table after the AfD relisting, despite having the opportunity to address these changes. After extensive post-discussion editing, per WP:EDITCONSENSUS, "any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus." Per WP:NOCONSENSUS, "In deletion discussions, a lack of consensus normally results in the article, page, image, or other content being kept." Per WP:CLOSEAFD, "Consensus is not based on a tally of votes, but on reasonable, logical, policy-based arguments." I respectfully submit that notability has been adequately conferred per WP:GNG, that consensus has been attained per the above standards and per WP:SILENCE, and that this article should be a Speedy Keep.ToddLara729 (talk) 21:11, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The only presumption concerning silence is that the opinion has not changed - but just to be clear the reams of text has not changed my opinion.PRehse (talk) 22:05, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as a subject failing to meet GNG. Reliability and extent of sources are both of concern here. I've also struck the article creator's third or fourth !vote a few comments above, as everyone customarily gets one and one only of these per discussion, no matter how unreasonably long they get. BigHaz - Schreit mich an05:17, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The subject rises to GNG, the statements in the article confer notability as recognized by an administrator in the edit history, and the quality of the sources seems self-evident at this point. With the exception of Treker, who has taken the time to voice a number of constructive concerns that were at least partly addressed by the edits that followed, the deletion !votes on the whole have been brief, dismissive, and slightly gratuitous at times. Much time and effort has been committed to the development of this article and the references. Comparatively little time and effort has been devoted, for the most part, to supporting the merits of deletion. Suggest invoking NOCONSENSUS to Speedily Close AfD arguments and continue this discussions via talk, lest we create more unreasonably long reams of text under this heading.ToddLara729 (talk) 07:23, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome to your opinion, but I disagree with it and your assessment of the sources provided (the comment was made that the claims, if supported by reliable sources, would demonstrate notability, and I don't subscribe to the view that the sources provided are sufficiently reliable to qualify in that regard). I can't speak for any other user expressing an opinion, but I generally don't try to write an essay when expressing my opinion in an AfD where a brief rationale will do. If that makes my response "brief, dismissive, and slightly gratuitous at times", then so be it. Being that the burden of proof is generally on the people arguing for the subject's notability, I'd also submit that the amount of time devoted "to supporting the merits of deletion", while irrelevant (I've considered the article, the sources and the discussion here, that's more than enough), is roughly in line with what is to be expected. Lastly, you've been advised on at least two separate occasions regarding it being a bad idea to keep bolding things (you're allowed to bold the word "keep" as you did, and "comment" as you have), so I'd suggest that you stop doing so. In the interests of not creating more text, allow me to point out here that I don't intend to keep responding. You've made your case - over and over again - and I for one don't agree with it. Disheartening experience though it may be, them's the breaks. BigHaz - Schreit mich an07:41, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I will be sure to avoid the use of bold print from now on. You have conceded that notability would be conferred, but for the unreliability of the sources. As a great deal of effort was made to include independent writers, editors, authors and experts in the reference list in order to meet the recommended guidelines, on what do you base your summary judgment of the unreliability of the sources, and what type of improvements would assuage your doubts? ToddLara729 (talk) 08:12, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
ToddLara729, I'm sorry, it's clear to me that you have put lots of work into this article and have tried really hard and that's admirable but you need to leave the rest of the discussion up to other people. You can't keep saying stuff like "speedy keep" or "NO.CONSENSUS" when the that has not been reached and no admin has concluded that that is the case. Again, like I said before the only thing you can do it look for more refs and improve the article.★Trekker (talk) 08:14, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, sir. As a newcomer, I'm unsure of how much argument is allowed in AfD, whether it is better to allow challenges to go unanswered, or how often a contributor should reply when outnumbered in a debate. I do think this process is relatively transparent; so, regardless of my style, there is no capacity to mislead with bold print or caps lock, or to suggest that administrators have ruled when they have not. I am simply emphasizing my position, my logic, my understanding of policy, and my voice. However, since the length and style of my comments is apparently unwelcome, and since I am outnumbered in that regard, I will respectfully step back from this debate in the interest of decorum and allow the WP veterans to hash it out. With regard to improving the article and references, I believe you have been monitoring my consistent efforts since the nomination for deletion was first made. I cannot devote much more of my time to this process. Unless others contribute in the next few days, this article will be retained or deleted in its present form.ToddLara729 (talk) 08:39, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, I'm glad that you seem to be accommodating to your fellow editors and respect their additions to the debate (while you disagree with them). I also want to say that I do not think the article in it's current state is poor, had it been like this from the begining I would not have put it up for deletion, but like I said before I'm not the one who decides this now.★Trekker (talk) 08:48, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Clears WP:SPORTSPERSON, as far as I can see. So long as the referenced individual is notable within his/her field it is in the best interest of the community to include that person. The evidence supports the fact that Stambowsky is notable. The article is in good shape now and meets wikipedia quality standards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emz3l (talk • contribs) 02:54, 13 June 2017 (UTC) — Emz3l (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Keep — Y'know, I think Emz3l says it pretty well. While the sourcing skirts the edge of the minimum necessary to satisfy GNG, I concur exactly with this analysis: "So long as the referenced individual is notable within his/her field it is in the best interest of the community to include that person. The evidence supports the fact that Stambowsky is notable. The article is in good shape now and meets wikipedia quality standards."Carrite (talk) 15:04, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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I had this restored after prod deletion because a lot of WP:EFFORT went into it at WP:PNT and I thought it deserved every chance. I have the feeling she doesn't meet WP:ACADEMIC but I'm not sure, also the article resembles a resumée and there seems to be a COI Siuenti (씨유엔티) 02:48, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not really sure if I should be trying to get this deleted, but in order to advance the discussion I will point out that there is no policy that says quantity of published work indicates notability. @Peterkingiron:Siuenti (씨유엔티) 00:19, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as likely a pass of WP:NAUTHOR with multiple published books. Éditions Geuthner appears to be a scholarly publisher. I believe we are hampered by the language difference here and that sources are likely to exist in French. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:36, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just publishing stuff contributes nothing to notability. It's having the stuff recognized by others that confers it. If sources exist in French the search engines should find them. They can't yet. Xxanthippe (talk) 05:39, 27 May 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Delete. She seems to be a perfectly competent academic, doing what academics do. She meets neither of our principal standards for inclusion of academics here – she is not a full professor, and her work has been cited only very infrequently. Perhaps it is just WP:TOOSOON? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:42, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The issue is whether a person who might be notable in one population is therefore notable to all populations covered by Wikipedia. This person appears notable only to Francophone Medievalists which is far too limited a group, in my opinion, to be "generally notable" for purposes of Wikipedia. Collect (talk) 12:34, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - the only argument to keep the article is that she has published many papers. That is not an indication of notability. I do not see significant coverage in independent reliable sources. ~ GB fan20:32, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep She has a Worldcat entry, and is therefore notable, by definition. They don't hand them out in lucky bags. Collect, I have never heard such a fallacious argument in all my life. All knowledge by it nature, is specialized, only after time and use does it become knowable by the populace at large. Academics hold specialized knowledge like this as their lifeblood, and is truly ideal for WP, as it advances the fringes of the project and pushes back against WP:BIAS arguments. Keep. scope_creep (talk) 13:28, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you should reread WP policies about personal attacks. I find "Francophone Medievalists" to be a very narrow area at best. Just as I would find "long jumpers whose best jump was between 14 feet and 14 feet 3 inches". Or "experts on bauxite crystal formations." And the number of "people who are in Worldcat" is far greater then "people who are actually notable" alas. Collect (talk) 19:14, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete As we have (so far) no notability guidelines for Francophone Medievalists, we should follow GNG and WP:ACADEMIC. Alas, apart from the papers she published, I do not see she passes either of them. Lectonar (talk) 09:18, 19 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Redirect to Manila massacre. The killings of the Columban priests were part of the murders of 100,000 civilians by Japanese soldiers in a short period of time toward the end of the war. There is no evidence these men's deaths were more notable than the deaths of the others.Edison (talk) 15:29, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep to document where possible those who were killed. In these days of "denial" (e.g. Holocaust) it is important to include articles of victims as proof that these killings actually happened. Regards, — JoeHebda • (talk)18:23, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The potential for canonization is insufficient to show notability. Evaluate the subject on currently available sources. Also, if the article is to be redirected, Manila massacre is the wrong target since the subject died under completely different circumstances. clpo13(talk)22:02, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as a non-notable subject. The fact that a lot of victims died in similar ways doesn't mean that each individual victim is notable (and sadly may mean the exact opposite). Potential canonisation sounds like a classic example of WP:TOOSOON/WP:NEXTBIGTHING, as that specifically excludes articles on "potential" award-winners, record-holders, office-bearers and the like. No prejudice against recreation of an article if and when the subject is canonised, as that would surely generate sufficient coverage. BigHaz - Schreit mich an23:09, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I don't know about the other martyrs in this context, but Google Scholar gives 831 hits for this individual - and he is being examined for canonisation, so I would think that would make him an historical identiry. Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:08, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- I'm unable to locate coverage that discusses the subject directly and in detail. I'm not sure where the "830 hits" in GS is coming from; I only see a couple of mentions. I suspect some are false positives as this is a common name. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:24, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The subject is notable, and the article provides the nucleus for an in-depth article to be built on using reliable sources.TH1980 (talk) 01:27, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:GNG. Along with the Irish Times article already cited, there is some coverage in books. These are only available in snippet view but appear to be more than passing mentions: Mindanao mission: Archbishop Patrick Cronin's forty years in the Philippines (p. 129) and The Missions: Africa and the Orient (p. 76). StAnselm (talk) 01:42, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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This delete discussion refers to the original article, Integrative Intelligence, and the articles that have been made since: integrative intelligence and integrative intelligence (psychology). gidonb (talk) 21:09, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
1. The three people Sharda et.al "authored" the book on the concept. It is indeed harsh and unfair in mentioning the word "...promoted...". (Please do not see everything as a sales pitch, but a humble contribution. There is still a difference between "Authoring" and "Promoting" in some countries). The authors come from a credible academic background with over 100+ publications in their research field in last 25 years<ref>((cite web|url=https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=hi&q=nandram+sharda&btnG=&oq=Nandram))</ref>, See: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=hi&q=nandram+sharda&btnG=&oq=Nandram
2. This is not a "New Age" babble. Springer Nature has published the author(s) in a book where there is mention of this concept<ref>((Cite book|url=http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-52231-9_21|title=Managing VUCA Through Integrative Self-Management|last=Bindlish|first=Puneet K.|last2=Nandram|first2=Sharda S.|last3=Joshi|first3=Ankur|date=2017|publisher=Springer International Publishing|isbn=9783319522302|editor-last=Nandram|editor-first=Sharda S.|series=Management for Professionals|pages=321–330|language=en|doi=10.1007/978-3-319-52231-9_21|editor-last2=Bindlish|editor-first2=Puneet K.))</ref>
The term "Integrative Intelligence" has been in use for last 10-15 years. Incidentally there was no wikipedia article on it. This article has just been started with latest major references (from two books - "Understanding Integrative Intelligence" and "Managing VUCA through Integrative Self Management". ). Now that the article has been started, its just the matter of time, that the references from past many years would be arranged here by other people too. Some references, which are yet to be incorporated:
Keep - there's many books and scholarly articles and a Forbes article using that term. There does not seem to be an entirely uniform meaning of it and if the article is biased towards the meaning Nandram & Co it should be balanced by improvements. Alternatively it could become a smaller section of another article, but I think it's fine as an article. --Fixuture (talk) 12:37, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Question: if different authors use the words "integrative intelligence" in such diverging ways, doesn't it imply that this is not an existing concept in psychology hence any meaning can be given to these words put together? I'm puzzled how the article nevertheless ends up being "fine". Maybe rethink that position? gidonb (talk) 03:54, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Gidonb: I don't think the meanings diverge much. It is a very important and notable concept which does exist but nobody seems to have written very extensively on an explanation of the term or standardized it (which is not necessarily a problem). Okay: the article might not be fine and probably needs to be changed (it also should end up way shorter). But not deleted. --Fixuture (talk) 19:31, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Only place we list very different concepts united under one term is disambiguation pages. As a disambiguation page the article would definitely be shorter. However, we would end up with only red links because none of the definitions is notable per se. So even this idea is a no go... gidonb (talk) 02:46, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The Forbes source -- which is from one of their online "contributors" -- seems to be for a different concept, from a different author, which happens to combine these two words. The article before us at this Afd is clearly a WP:COATRACK to promote the new book by Sharda S. Nandram, which is also at Afd. At best what we have here is a WP:SYNTH article to provide a foundation for promoting Nandram and his product. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:17, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Due to that the Forbes source should not be used or not be its only reference and the article edited so that it does not promote that new book or be biased. --Fixuture (talk) 00:53, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - this is not a thing in psychology - or anywhere else, for that matter. Although permitting it to remain would probably result in it becoming a WP:OR (franken)thing of our own making, as different editors added disconnected the sort of tidbits associable to a name this generic. Advocata (talk) 11:48, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
this is not a thing in psychology - or anywhere else, for that matter
Delete. The words integrative intelligence may appear in quite a few sources, but there's no notable concept here. Cashman's concept hasn't received much, if any, reliable secondary attention. The work of Nandram et al. almost certainly isn't notable, despite extensive efforts at promoting it. Several sources use the phrase in connection to the intelligence community, which is an entirely different thing that a psychology topic, but in any case don't appear to be treating the phrase as any specific term of art. Broadly taken, these are common words, and it's not uncommon for them to appear together. But that's not enough to warrant an article (much less an article dominated by Nandram's approach to the term, which is demonstrably non-notable). Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 14:27, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - reading the comments here, I was quite dubious about this article, but a check on Google scholar shows the term being used in a number of RS srouces. The term seems to be used in various senses, it is used in a military intelligence sense, and a learning/teaching sense/information science sense. There does seem to be an esoteric angle on it, which I admit is worrying in that it may not be well founded. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:19, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Deathlibrarian, following this link, I see that the two words appear only 150 times together in Scholar(later insert:) Google Scholar. It's NOT a standing concept in Psychology, otherwise it would not be simple to give it another meaning every time. As an experiment, I performed a similar search on two words. This combination of words does not appear 150 time together, not 1500, not 15,000, not 150,000 but 563,000 times!!! Create the article two words here and now? gidonb (talk) 17:35, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I did do my own search. A web page using that term means nothing. You have to read the web pages and verify that they are about the same concept as the Wikipedia page being considered for deletion.
Do a web search on "Guy Macon" and one of the result will be [ http://xena.yuku.com/topic/2719 ], but that doesn't mean that the Xena Online Community is suddenly interested in me.
@Guy Macon: Well, thanks for your reply. However, I endorse not deleting pages just because their content does not properly reflect their article title's meaning. Instead those pages need to be improved so that they do so properly. Furthermore you said that there's no evidence of notability and existence which is arguably false as countless of books and studies use that term. I am listening what others are telling me on this page, did not dismiss anything they said without making a specific point and strongly support back-and-forth discussion. I only created replies which is a good thing for a healthy discussion which is what any article − which took the time and effort of people to create − deserves. Gidonb now made a good case for deletion below though. --Fixuture (talk) 16:13, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
STOP PINGING ME! When I post a comment I read the replies. Pings are for when you think the editor is not reading the replies (for example, when you reply to a comment made two years ago).
You are still not listening to what everyone else on this page is telling you. You keep up a steady logorrhea of comments, but you have utterly failed to persuade even a single person. Please go to WP:1AM, print it out, and read it slowly ten times. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:53, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
CommentJust running this search past some commercial and free searches, searching for the exact phrase. ProQuest Central gives me 24 articles, Google Books: 940 results, Academic Search Complete: only 9 results, Google Scholar gives me 150. So yes, the phrase may be coming up in the wrong sense, or may not be... hard to say. It's not appearing in article titles that often, that's for sure, which is not reassuring. Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:57, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It looks very random to me. I'm going to reiterate what I implied in the intro. This is not a war on "integrative intelligence". I stand in this totally without prejudice. All I did is note that there is not yet (hence WP:NEO and WP:Too soon) an agreed concept of Integrative Intelligence. It is mentioned here and there, usually very differently. This does not make it into a encyclopedic concept. We mirror the scientific and media "markets" and DO NOT lead any of these, otherwise we engage in WP:OR and WP:Synthesis. Imho, for "integrative intelligence" to get in the general direction of encyclopedic we need one of the very different fields, where it has been mentioned, to include it as a concept with definition (versus an explanatory word combination using the meaning of each word separately) in an introductory textbook or scientific glossary with a major publisher. Two textbook definitions is safer but I do not see even one. This is not a high bar. To illustrate just how very problematic the current situation is, I have collected below 10 random sources that use "integrative intelligence". gidonb (talk) 06:55, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Gidonb: Thank you for your in-depth reply. This is by far the best argument for deletion here and I thank you for the research you made for it. I'd also like to note that I didn't have time for a lengthy research into the sources that use the term so far.
I do not think that sources #1 - #5 & #9 are at odds. Actually I do think they somewhat even reinforce each other to some extend as well as extend the concept (e.g. to different areas).
#6 is imo the new-age babble criticized by some in here.
#7 & #10 is another concept of the military & intelligence. This was also noted by Deathlibrarian above and I suggested moving this page to integrative intelligence (psychology) or alike due to that.
#8 seems to be a derivative of the term to AI. This should probably be noted in the article.
The problem here imo is that sources #1 - #5 & #9 don't give much detail about the concept.
I guess that's where Sharda Nandram's book and studies come in as they do give more detail about the concept.
Now I think people in here immediately jumped on it assuming it was marketing and new-age babble and overreacted/misreacted by calling for outright deletion.
I still support keeping it and instead to move and overhaul (including signficant trimming) the article.
However I now do see that WP:TOOSOON / WP:NEO could be regarded as to somewhat apply to the article and think that this could warrant deletion if the community decides so.
I wished we could have had this discussion before most of the votes come in though.
Anyways I'm glad that we could get a proper argumentation about deletion going which is what imo every article that took the time and effort of people to create deserves.
@Fixuture: Glad you liked it! Not everything we can do in the discussion space, however, we should do in the article space. We can do a little WP:OR to form an educated opinion in a discussion. In the article space, we need to stand on broader shoulders than mine to expand our encyclopedia, while preserving the necessary quality. gidonb (talk) 21:09, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Source #1 Sky Above Clouds: Finding Our Way Through Creativity, Aging, and Illness
"Integrative intelligence is the synthetic result of developmental intelligence—the awareness of going through a process of coming more and more into one's creative potential by using our resources, and by integrating the work it takes to move through the necessary developmental phases of inner and outer growth."
"For me, the art of synergistic relationships in integrative intelligence leads us to healing and to wholeness."
"This is integrative intelligence—a wisdom that honored the truth and vulnerability of her experience"
"We are our integrative intelligence."
Source #2 The Science of Money: How to Increase Your Income and Become Wealthy
"It's called the law of integrative intelligence. All these pieces of intelligence start to integrate and form a pattern or a design or a template whereby you can see an opportunity to create or build wealth that you hadn't seen before."
Source #3 Musical processes, resources, and technologies - Page 187
"It is still a comparative rarity to come across a commercial recording of folk or ethnic music which is well-conceived as to subject matter, efficiently produced, technically satisfying, and accurately and thoroughly annotated, so that the consumer receives the impression of some kind of integrative intelligence at work."
Source #4 The Many Faces of Giftedness: Lifting the Masks - Page 121
"The data is broken into two distinct areas, Integrative Intelligence and Dispersive Intelligence. The first area, Integrative Intelligence, groups together subtests that have as their connection the "capacity to discern broad patterns and connections in visual or verbal information" (p. 45)."
"High scores on subtests included in Integrative Intelligence provide evidence that such students can think abstractly, see patterns, and make connections among ideas — all pieces of creative productivity" (p. 46).
Source #5 Universitas: The Social Restructuring of American Undergraduate Education
"As such, full-ground thinking is integrative intelligence. It provides the essential power of perspective, perception and linguistic understanding between the different parts, as well as between the parts and the whole."
"The central theme that permeates all these theories is that spirituality is an integrative intelligence. By this we mean that the idea of connectedness works on several levels: it involves connectedness to others, to nature, and to the wider cosmos, but it also involves connectedness within the individual, integrating mind, heart, body and soul."
Source #7 Intelligence Success and Failure: The Human Factor - Page 62
"The RU was the main supplier of foreign political and military information not only to the army but also to the Politburo and to Stalin himself. It had an Information Department, that produced integrative intelligence documents and following the occupation of Poland and France it proved its value by producing excellent analyses of the German military performance in these operations. 42"
Source #8 Artificial General Intelligence - Page 119
"Our primary schema and predicate learning approach is to fix evolutionary programming's scaling problems using a number of integrative-intelligence-oriented tricks."
Source #9 Hope and the Future: An Introduction to the Concept of Cultural Maturity
"Finally, and especially relevant to the concept of Cultural Maturity, the same more consciously integrative intelligence that we see in the “seasoning” stage of a creative act orders the unique developmental capacities—the wisdom—of a lifetime's second half."
Source #10 Intelligence Elsewhere: Spies and Espionage Outside the Anglosphere
"In Davies's view, the British definition of intelligence points toward an integrative intelligence culture that is prone to groupthink. The opposite American definition of intelligence would lead toward a disintegrative culture that is characterized by turf wars.44"
Wendy L. Miller, Gene D. Cohen: The synthetic result of developmental intelligence
Brian Tracy: The process of compounding skills and [financial] information
Kay Kaufman Shelemay: An impression created by well-conceived subject matter, efficiently produced, technically satisfying, and accurately and thoroughly annotated [music].
Alexinia Young Baldwin: The "capacity to discern broad patterns and connections in visual or verbal information"
Tom Boudreau: Full-ground thinking
Wilma Vialle, Pauline Lysaght, Irina Verenikina: If the idea of connectedness works on several levels
Uri Bar-Joseph, Rose McDermott: Its toolbox can fix evolutionary programming's scaling problems
Ben Goertzel, Cassio Pennachin: A combined approach in artificial intelligence
Charles Johnston: in its conscious form seen in “seasoning” stage of a creative act
Philip H. J. Davies, Kristian C. Gustafson: as a culture leads to groupthink
Delete all the delete arguments above are good, but I'm especially convinced by Squeamish Ossifrage's. Two common words that appear beside each other in different contexts do not make the concept being discussed here notable. This is something we deal with at RMs frequently when looking at n-grams, and it occurrence is normally discounted then because we can't control for people using common words to mean different things. I don't see evidence of notability, so this should be deleted as a neologism. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:15, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Oh. My. God. Is this discussion STILL going on? This is a poorly-defined, variously-defined, not-particularly-notable neologism (as several editors have repeatedly stated) and it frankly looks like a blatant attempt to sell a book. Only @Fixuture: seems to be keeping this discussion going. SURELY we have sufficient consensus now? Famousdog (c)08:56, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete In case this wasn't completely obvious already: Praan, Nandram's publisher is not a reputable academic publisher, but a purveyor of new age rubbish. Mduvekot (talk) 12:28, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am unwatching this page as a waste of time. (Not a !vote: I did that already.) This should have been deleted instead of relisted. The two keep !votes are based upon doing a google search and claiming as sources pages that talk about completely different things or are just two words next to each other the way "Guy Macon" is found when you search the page at [ http://xena.yuku.com/topic/2719 ]. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:32, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Can we finally close this as a clear delete? It was never established that there is a case for keep. It's unclear why this was relisted. gidonb (talk) 17:15, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete per nomination, city councillors aren't normally notable enough for an article, and "one of the youngest councilors in the province" adds little to that. Uncle Roy (talk) 15:47, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Firstly, cities of just 24K do not hand their city councillors a free WP:NPOL pass just for existing — the only cities that can do that are metropolitan global cities on the order of Toronto, Chicago, New York City or London. Secondly, being among the youngest holders of an otherwise non-notable office counts for all of exactly nothing toward boosting his notability either — a person is not automatically more notable than his colleagues just because he's younger than they are. Thirdly, as yet non-winning mayoral candidates don't get articles just for the fact of being mayoral candidates — and in a city of 24K, he still wouldn't be guaranteed a Wikipedia article even if he wins the mayoral election. And fourthly, the article's edit history reveals that this is an WP:AUTOBIO created by Arjun Randhawa himself — but Wikipedia is not a free publicity platform for people to create articles about themselves. To qualify for an article, he would have to be shown and sourced as significantly more notable than the norm for a smalltown municipal politician — but nothing here demonstrates or sources that at all. Bearcat (talk) 17:03, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep In looking for sources for the original autobio before deleting it, I came across the other Arjun Randhawa. The CBC article prompted me to change the article to this one, but I'd really like to see other sources than his local newspaper before making a strong case for notability.--Fabrictramp | talk to me23:55, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete: lots of WP:ROUTINE coverage but not much that I would consider significant for GNG. Falls short of NHOCKEY and does not appear to playing as many games in the AHL anymore, seems unlikely to meet the 200 game assumption for GNG. Yosemiter (talk) 21:03, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete very poor sourcing, large sections of the article are unsourced, and most of the material is written by someone with a very close (if undisclosed) connection to the subject as evidenced by the photos. The only "decent source", is an interview in the style section of the Montreal Gazette, pays attention to her dogs and house and highlights " A cosy sitting area on the second-floor" as "an ideal spot to leaf through a book and unwind." That is not serious, in-depth coverage. Mduvekot (talk) 16:25, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - the article may not be any good, but the subject has been discussed at length on the CBC and by Magazin'Art, both of which are legitimate sources and establish WP:N and WP:CREATIVE cred. Somebody just needs to rewrite the article. :) Newimpartial (talk) 22:51, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is literally on the first page of the linked Google search. Notability decisions for deletion are supposed to be based on actual notability, not just what is in the article. Thus the requirement in WP:BEFORE to do the homework. Newimpartial (talk) 22:59, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point, but google results are not the same for everyone. Why not add the reference? Mduvekot (talk) 23:04, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As for Magazin'Art, that's an interview, with an introduction that mentions how she's often mentioned by blogs and webzines : "régulièrement mentionnée sur un grand nombre de webzines et de blogues influents". Those are precisely the kind of sources that we do not take seriously. Mduvekot (talk) 23:04, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have seriously looked through the policies and essays I can find, but I don't see why an interview in a Montreal art magazine wouldn't count for the notability of a Montreal artist. Care to enlighten me? Newimpartial (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
2) Wikipedia:Interviews#Notability also says, "An independent interviewer represents the "world at large" giving attention to the subject, and as such, interviews as a whole contribute to the basic concept of notability. The material provided to the interview by the interviewer and the publication is secondary.... Interviews show a wide range of attention being given to the subject and should be weighted accordingly." It most certainly does not say that interviews are not evidence of Notability, which is what you and your cherry-picked quotation imply. Newimpartial (talk) 01:20, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The CBC interview is a softball Q&A allowing the Desjardins to say anything she likes about herself. The interviewer was there just to keep the individual talking, not to introduce their own thoughts. These kinds of interviews are broadly unhelpful in establishing notability. That's all in Wikipedia:Interviews#Notability. Mduvekot (talk) 15:27, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. I'm very familiar with the CBC's coverage. In their regional programming, they'll covert the most trivial subjects, like this. I've listened to the whole thing, and there is nothing in that interview that approaches critical attention. It's an announcement for a "live painting performance" at a charity event. This is not "Wachtel On The Arts". Mduvekot (talk) 21:31, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Cannot locate any secondary sources to indicate notability. I tried checking the ja.wiki article for poachable sources but there are none. Admittedly I don't read Japanese so there may be Japanese sources I didn't find, and I will happily withdraw if that is the case. ♠PMC♠ (talk)00:38, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't wanna be that guy who's in arguing with every keep, but that article you linked to is, at 3300 bytes, hardly extensive. Not only is it tagged as a stub, but it's actually smaller than our article, which is 3800 bytes if you don't count the AfD notice. There are also zero references anywhere in that article. I have no idea why you're misrepresenting the ja.wiki article but what you're saying is factually not true. ♠PMC♠ (talk)09:19, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed my vote to delete - PMC Fair enough, yes I've done a double check. Even though it does have a Japanese page, there is really very little on this Manga. Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:10, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Unfortunately, the manga lacks significant coverage in either Japanese or English sources. Searching in English results mostly in the usual illegal scanlation sites, while the Japanese search wasn't much better, mostly consisting of sites that sell the manga. Narutolovehinata5tccsdnew06:06, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per the above comments. Article lacks enough sourcing in either language to meet the English Wikipedia's inclusion criteria, most significantly, WP:GNG. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:17, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete: This article was nominated in the last week or so. The previous nomination was withdrawn by the nominator after a short time. I subsequently examined the article and saw that the sources do not meet the criteria for notability among other problems. I tagged the article (notability being one) but one editor disagreed and removed the tags. After some discussion (on the article Talk page) the editor put some tags back but has not added any additional sources and believes the last AfD passed with WP:SNOW and that the topic is therefore notable. Nevertheless it was agreed to put it back in AfD.
The existing sources in the article are either Press Releases or Primary sources from the Utex website. Despite this being the 2nd AfD in a short period of time, interested editors have not provided any sources that meet the criteria for notability.
Delete I had the hubris to think that sourcing a WP:BASIC bio of an American company that's been around since 1940 would be a piece of cake. I started with a Proquest news archive search on the original name ""Universal Packing and Gasket" and got absolutely nothing. My google search= [76] was not much better. So I tried "Utex Industries", but all that I could establish is that the company issues a lot of press releases and but gets only a very occassional routine or trivial mention in news media. So, it exists, but it fails WP:CORPDEPTH.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:41, 24 May 2017 (UTC) Changing iVote to Keep per new sources found.[reply]
Keep - I'm open to changing my mind but a quick search shows a lot of media coverage that could be used to improve the article. It has near a 100 year history and appears to meet notability criteria without much trouble. Recent advert-wording issues have been solved and now the article just needs expansion. Thanks ツ Jenova20(email)10:10, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jenova20, you are correct that a source must be reliable, but you don't appear to be critically analysing the articles published by the sources with an eye on WP:CORPDEPTH and WP:ORGIND. Being a reliable source isn't enough, on its own, to establish notability. Here are my comments on the sources you've mentioned above.
Yes, seems factual and informative. But, the publication is not national or regional but local (Newcastle in the UK). It also seems to me to fail point 11 of WP:CORPDEPTH ("quotations from an organization's personnel as story sources").
Reuters. The article mentions Utex but the content makes it clear that the information is not reliable.
same topic, different source yes, but its a circular argument. This article directly references reuters as the originating source, therefore this source is not considered as a separate source.
this court case also fails for the same reason. BTW, if a newspaper has covered the proceedings, then there's a good chance that article would meet the criteria.
acquisition news except fails WP:ORGIND because it is a Press Release from the company and their new landlord
another one which is also a regurgitation of a Press Release and therefore fails WP:ORGIND (it even has a link to the original Riverstone press release).
and another which is also regurgitating the earlier Reuters unreliable whisper.
I believe there are now two sources (and possibly three - perhaps the reuters published rumour meets the critera .. not convinced though) that meet the criteria for establishing notability. The article should incorporate the details in those sources and reference them. I'd like to wait to see if anyone has any further comments on the source above regarding the US dept of Labor complaint before striking my Delete !vote. -- HighKing++ 16:39, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note on Sources The article is entirely PRIMARY sourced with the lone exception of a 2014 article in Rubber and Plastics News, a publication with which I am unfamiliar.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:35, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Taken in isolation, the comments in this AfD clearly justify closing this as delete. However, the previous AfD, just a couple of weeks ago, came to a very different conclusion. It's true that some of the arguments in the previous AfD were not well-founded (and/or from IP/SPA editors) but there were also some reasonable arguments for keeping that were put forth. Given that, I think it's worth letting this run for another week.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith(talk)12:27, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, with reference to the investigation above. Note that the previous AFD only really considered the spammy nature of the article, and did not look in depth at notability as this one has. The spam issue has been addressed well, but I feel that the notability issue has not. Lankiveil(speak to me)12:34, 4 June 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Comment - on cursory investigation, an otherwise undistinguished lower middle market company has managed to become the core of a rather convoluted rollup spearheaded by a succession of pe firms, all of which makes for a well-documented, albeit one-dimensional story. It's unclear that the rigorous coverage of the financial saga licenses general notability. Advocata (talk) 11:38, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
Moody's Investors Service has affirmed the ratings, including the B3 Corporate Family Rating and B3-PD probability of default rating, of UTEX Industries, Inc. ("UTEX"). The rating outlook remains negative.
...
The B3 corporate family rating reflects UTEX's small size, a high degree of financial leverage, an aggressive financial policy, and the company's heavy exposure to the cyclical oil and gas market which is currently undergoing a major downturn. The rating benefits from a demonstrated track record of earnings growth, strong free cash flow generating capabilities, and a good liquidity profile. The rating is further supported by the customized and consumable nature of many of the company's products which we believe will partially mitigate on-going earnings pressure resulting for the downturn in UTEX's key end markets.
...
UTEX Industries, Inc., headquartered in Houston, Texas, is a designer and manufacturer of highly engineered specialty sealing and down-hole products primarily for the oil and gas industry. Key products include well service packings, custom tailored products, specialty valves, mining and oilfield products and spring energized seals. UTEX was acquired by affiliates of Riverstone Holdings LLC in April 2013.
There has been considerable discussion over time whether publicly traded corporations, or at least publicly traded corporations listed on major stock exchanges such as the NYSE and other comparable international stock exchanges, are inherently notable. Consensus has been that notability is not automatic in this (or any other) case. However, sufficient independent sources almost always exist for such companies, so that notability can be established using the primary criterion discussed above. Examples of such sources include independent press coverage and analyst reports. Accordingly, article authors should make sure to seek out such coverage and add references to such articles to properly establish notability.
Although UTEX Industries is not a publicly traded corporation, I am quoting this text here to emphasize that analyst reports like this Moody's report can be used to establish notability.
The settlement with Mr. Cuomo has not slowed Riverstone down. Last year, the firm and Apollo Global Management led a $7.15 billion acquisition of the exploration and production unit of the El Paso Corporation and also paid $825 million for UTEX Industries, a maker of sealing products for oil-and-gas drilling. Those prominent deals and other profitable investments helped attract public pensions and other deep-pocketed clients to Riverstone’s latest fund.
UTEX Industries Inc. plans to consolidate its Singapore operations by constructing a 48,000 sq.-ft. facility that is expected to employ up to 60 by the end of this year.
The company manufactures custom engineered rubber and urethane solutions for a variety of industries.
...
The Singapore office is expected to support UTEX Industries' operations in the Middle East.
The company has more than 600 employees worldwide with seven manufacturing facilities in the U.S., all located in Texas, and one in Northcumberland, England.
The Houston-based firm has another sales office in Brazil.
UTEX Industries has operated a sales office in Singapore since 2011 that traditionally has been supported by engineering and manufacturing efforts in the U.S.
Utex Industries Inc., maker of mechanical seals and other molded elastomer products, has acquired the Accuseal name and polymeric seal business from Corrosion Control Corp. The deal allows Houston-based Utex the opportunity to fill a hole in its offerings with Accuseal´s spring-energized polymer seals, made of polyesters and Teflons. Accuseal, which also makes silicone-filled seals, is now a division of Utex and will be based in a leased 11,000-sq.-ft. facility in Houston near the company´s corporate offices. Accuseal moved from Lakewood, Colo.
Houston-based Utex is a designer and maker of gaskets and engineered seals for the oil and gas, water distribution, aerospace, medical, food and beverage, chemical and petrochemical, power generation, and general industrial markets.
The firm was founded in 1940 as Universal Packing and Gasket, and has plants totaling almost 400,000 square feet of space in Hou-ston, Conroe, Weimar and Odessa, Texas.
It calls itself the largest rubber molder in the southern U.S., having made several acquisitions over the years, including Applied Rubber Technology Inc. and more recently Accuseal. Utex itself was purchased two years ago by Grey Mountain Partners, according to the company's Web site.
Mike Balas will continue as CEO, and the rest of the management team will remain in place. He said in a statement that the Audax purchase would give Utex new investment and growth opportunities and solidify its position for long-term success.
Jan 29 Utex Industries, a U.S. manufacturer of sealing products and services used for oil and gas drilling, is exploring a sale of the company that could fetch as much as $800 million, two people familiar with the matter said.
New York-based private equity firm Rhone Capital, which acquired Utex for an undisclosed sum in 2010, has hired Lazard Ltd to conduct a sale, one of the sources said.
...
Founded in 1940 and based in Houston, Texas, Utex makes what are known in the industry as highly engineered specialty sealing solutions and downhole consumables used for oil and gas drilling, as well as water management and mining, according to its website.
In the USA, Riverstone Holdings Llc is to acquire fluid sealing company Utex Industries Inc from Rhone Capital Llc. Equity for the deal is coming from Riverstone Global Energy & Power Fund V Lp.
The financial terms of this transaction were not disclosed. The deal, which is subject to certain regulatory approvals, is expected to close as this issue of Sealing Technology goes to press.
Founded in 1940, Utex Industries manufactures engineered sealing and other speciality products used in a variety of applications, and equipment related to onshore and offshore oil and gas drilling and production, power generation, mining, water treatment, and other industrial sectors.
Many of the company's products are used in severe operating environments, where high pressures and temperatures present particular challenges that require unique and customised technology and products. The majority of Utex Industries' products are "consumables" with short life-cycles and need to be replaced at regular intervals to avoid failure in critical, capital-intensive applications.
Texas Attorney General Jim Mattox said UTEX Inc., a copier-machine company, agreed to refund nearly $8,000 to small-business customers, churches and schools in Central Texas. Mattox's office had sued in district court, saying UTEX sold used equipment by representing it as new. Mattox said the company replaced copy-counter meters and exterior panels to make the machines appear new. UTEX must also pay the state $40,000 in penalties and costs.
In a paper presented in 1998, Fred Pippert explained that in 1964, Utex Industries developed the first nonadjustable plunger packing material designed to address recipocrating pump-sealing problems. This material was composed of nitrile rubber and nylon fabric composite laminated material and was then molded into packing called the J-Design 838. In 1992, Utex began to investigate new elastomer systems that could allow the production of plunger packing material that could operate at higher pressures and temperatures as well as operate with less maintenance. Testing and evaluation were conducted, and in 1997, the new composite was introduced and given the name SuperGold.
H. B. O. (2006-04-10). "W.P. Carey Seals a Sale-Leaseback Deal for UTEX Industries". Private Placement Letter. Vol. 24, no. 4. SourceMedia. ISSN1099-3401.
The article notes:
UTEX Industries, a privately owned company founded in 1940, is a total solution provider of fluid sealing products. It designs, manufactures and services molded packing and seals for reciprocating pumps, hydraulics, proprietary high-tech O-ring seals, custom rubber molded products, mechanical seals, compression packing, gaskets, sheet gasket products and maintenance products, according to the company's profile.
In August, private equity firm and the issuer's financial partner Grey Mountain Partners acquired UTEX Industries, Inc., according to company information.
Fest, Glen (2014-05-14). "Price Talk Set for UTEX". High Yield Report. SourceMedia. ISSN1094-8945.
The article notes:
Price talk has emerged for UTEX Industries' $725 million loan offer to fund a dividend and to repay the company's existing first- and second-lien debt.
The loans are divided between a first-lien loan of $475 million, a $50 million first-lien revolver and a second-lien tranche of $200 million. Price talk on the first-lien facility is 425 bps over Libor with a 99 cents on the dollar original issue discount, according to KDP Investment Advisors. The second-lien has price talk of Libor plus 750 bps, also with a 99-cent OID.
Moody's revised the outlook to negative from stable as a result of the "significant increase" in leverage from the dividend, with debt-to-Eitda growing to 6.6x from 4.5x. Moody's says the debt will diminish the company's financial flexibility and represents a "significantly more aggressive" financial policy that will make "UTEX's ability to meet its cash flow targets and reduce leverage over the coming quarters will be critical rating considerations," the report stated.
...
UTEX issued the existing $300 million term loan and a $140 million second-lien loan in March 2013 to help finance its $825 million buyout by private equity sponsor Riverstone Holdings.
UTEX designs and makes custom engineered sealing products and solutions catering to oil and gas, water treatment and distribution, aerospace, medical, food and beverage, chemical and petrochemical, power generation, and general industrial segments.
Sibayan, Karen (2013-03-25). "UTEX Plans $540M in Loans". High Yield Report. SourceMedia. ISSN1094-8945.
The article notes:
UTEX Industries is planning to issue a $350 million first-lien credit facility comprising a $300 million term loan and a $50 million revolver. The Houston, Texas-based company is also proposing a $140 million second-lien credit facility, according to Standard & Poor's.
Proceeds from the debt will be for financing private equity firm Riverstone Holdings' $825 million purchase of UTEX from Rhone Capital.
S&P assigned its B corporate credit rating to the U.S. oil and gas service provider while giving its B issue-level and 3 recovery ratings to the first-lien senior secured credit facility and its CCC+ issue-level and 6 recovery ratings to the second-lien credit facility.
S&P's ratings on UTEX indicates the company's small size and scale of operations, limited end-market and product diversity. The agency also considers the sealing products manufacturer's vulnerability to the highly volatile oil and gas exploration sector, its ownership by private equity, and its very aggressive leverage.
Comment None of the sources in Cunard's unnecessary wall of text above count as "Significant coverage in reliable, independent sources" - it's a load of PR-based stuff or passing mentions. Exemplo347 (talk) 09:11, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The analyst report from Moody's Corporation says, "Moody's Investors Service has affirmed the ratings, including the B3 Corporate Family Rating and B3-PD probability of default rating, of UTEX Industries, Inc. ("UTEX"). The rating outlook remains negative."
An article that says UTEX Industries' "rating outlook remains negative" and provides analysis to support this view is neither PR-based nor a passing mention. Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)#Publicly traded corporations says, "Examples of such sources include independent press coverage and analyst reports."
Another source provides negative coverage of the subject: "S&P's ratings on UTEX indicates the company's small size and scale of operations, limited end-market and product diversity. The agency also considers the sealing products manufacturer's vulnerability to the highly volatile oil and gas exploration sector, its ownership by private equity, and its very aggressive leverage." That is neither PR-based nor a passing mention.
Delete, but encourage rewriting It's an interesting question when someone write a promotional article, and a proper search for sources provides material from which one could write a very different article with a NPOV that represents the situation in a much less positive way, whether we should rewrite the article appropriately. My feeling is that we should keep it in only if someone actually does rewrite it. If Cunard, with his undoubted competence at NPOV writing and sourcing in this field, were to rewrite it now, I would say keep, but as this has not yet been done, I'm therefore saying delete, but encouraging Cunard to use the sources to write a proper article. My feeling about this could be summarized as "hoist by their own petard". DGG ( talk ) 05:36, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Unchanged -- still a "Delete" for me; the coverage is routine: transactions, products, etc. The article is still subtly promotional, as in "Most of the company's products have short product lifecycles so must be replenished periodically to prevent important tools from not working." -- "to prevent important tools from not working"? K.e.coffman (talk) 04:51, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The majority of Utex Industries' products are "consumables" with short life-cycles and need to be replaced at regular intervals to avoid failure in critical, capital-intensive applications.
The quoted text is an accurate paraphrasing of the source.
If you have a better paraphrase of the source, please modify the sentence.
"Riverstone Holdings signs agreement to buy Utex Industries", by the sound of it, is redressed press release. That's why, when paraphrased, it still sounds promotional. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:05, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I nominated this article earlier. I'm less interested in the quality of articles and more focussed on whether the topic is notable. There have now been at least two sources that pass the criteria for establishing notability. Also, thanks to Cunard for overhauling the previous versions of the article, this article is less promotional. I'm satisfied to change to a "Keep" in this instance. -- HighKing++ 11:52, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Extension of the "List of regions of Mexico" AfD. These articles are unverifiable and the subdivisions appear to be completely made up by the author(s). For the exact same reasons I am also nominating the following articles:
Delete. @Kippenvlees1: I'm very happy to see this revived. Thanks for doing it. These eight articles constitute a political division of Mexico that does not reflect any actual such division in Mexican government. The only "regions" in Mexico are small divisions in the D.F. and the equivalent of counties in Oaxaca. This regional scheme appears to have been completely concocted by an editor. It'll take some work to extract it from all the lists, categories and articles it has percolated down into. I'm volunteering. --Lockley (talk) 23:40, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
delete As the original instigator I was going to stay out things this time, but since it seems to be stalled, I will repeat what I found before. These "regions" were all created on the Spanish WP at the same time by a single user. They have the same lack of substantive references (mostly they link to a couple of tourism sites which, as far as I can tell, don't divide the country up this way), and they seem to have been unwarily copied from there to here. But I could find nobody but WP making this kind of division. Mangoe (talk) 10:11, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete. It's a year-old legal conference, and I don't see the slightest sign that anyone's really even taken note of it. --Calton | Talk02:10, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Non-notable director of non-notable films, no significant coverage in independent reliable sources. Most of the sources are either primary sources, passing mention, press releases or ones to his own website/blog. Fails [WP:NBIO]] and general notability guideline also appear to be a case of WP:TOOSOON. GSS (talk|c|em) 10:41, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Notable person : should remain in Wkipedia
user:LouisePS you have not created own user page as you are a Hoax editor in Wikipedia but uttering for others with same which is not good practice. Amjad Alsaboory is one of best youth icon among Iraqi origin people in Australia as well as Arabic speaking people in Australia. Hence the page should remains in Wikipedia as 11 reputed online portal featured him in various occasions
@Kalamya: The subject has received no significant coverage in independent reliable, secondary sources, has not produced any notable work and all of the available sources are either unreliable, press releases, blog posts or passing mention so can you please explain how this person is notable? GSS (talk|c|em) 14:54, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. Unclear why this was relisted twice despite a withdrawn nomination without further delete-!votes in the first place but even with further discussion there is no consensus to delete. Mergers can be discussed at the talk page. SoWhy07:09, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Have you checked for reviews under the Spanish title Papeles de un cesante? Or considered a merge? The author Leopoldo Calvo-Sotelo is very notable, though not so much as a writer. The article here is a direct translation from Spanish Wikipedia, so could do with a rewrite, certainly, but I've a feeling it might be a notable topic. --Colapeninsula (talk) 16:17, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The book is about the transition to democracy in post-Franco Spain by ex-P.M. Calvo-Sotelo, clearly a notable topic. But that doesn't make the book notable, which doesn't inherit the notability of the book's chosen subject(s). Perhaps you're right about a merge. I haven't checked for reviews, because reviews don't contribute to notability per WP:NBOOK, but news, university courses, conferences, and books about the book do, and I haven't seen anything like that. One should be clear that mere mentions of the book or references to it in other books don't establish notability, the criterion is about books so significant that other books are written about it, such as Chomsky's Aspects of the Theory of Syntax, or Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Calvo-Sotelo's book is undoubtedly significant in the sense that it talks about an important period in Spanish politics, but that makes that period significant, and if there isn't a WP article about the transition to democracy post-Franco, there ought to be. But that doesn't make a book about a notable topic notable, otherwise every book written about that topic would be notable, which is clearly not the case. Mathglot (talk) 16:39, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the drive-by, I did not notice that reviews are included, which surprises me. I don't see the point in nominating any book for deletion in that case, because pretty much everything gets a review these days. It surprises me, because the other criteria are of such a different level on the scale of notability, whereas this was is an extremely low bar and all out of proportion. But since that's the case, and this book clearly has reviews, I see no other choice but to withdraw the nomination. Mathglot (talk) 22:36, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Lockley: I guess so. I'm horrified that reviews are apparently an indicator of notability, because that goes against the grain of all the other criteria at WP:NBOOK which all tend to weed out any book except the ones that reach really top rank in some measure (sales, awards, topic of university courses, etc.), but all those criteria are completely undermined by this "two reviews" one, which will admit just about anything in print, including forgettable, ignominious trash. But that does appear to be what the guideline says, which means there's no point going further with this. Next step should be, change the guideline; but until that happens, this nomination is a dead letter. Mathglot (talk) 08:19, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment because of the poor way that the article was written I'm having trouble working out if the reviews are "non-trivial" as required by the criteria. can anyone help?Domdeparis (talk) 08:13, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Are these print sources? We can't judge the importance of the sources/reviews without scans. From the way it reads, it looks like the article should be merged to Leopoldo Calvo-Sotelo and covered with due weight. czar05:56, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - firstly, the nomination appears to have been withdrawn, see above. Secondly, this book by a former prime minister of Spain has been reviewed in numerous reliable sources, three of which are cited already in the article. A search using the Spanish title Papeles de un cesante finds that there are others in the literary weekly El Cultural and in En memoria del Presidente Leopoldo Calvo-Sotelo. It isn't just a compilation of his papers, but a narrative autobiographical work. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:01, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. Despite some conflict about the content, there is no consensus to delete this article itself. Turning it into a redirect can be discussed at the talk page if needed. SoWhy07:07, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
KeepWP:Don't demolish the house while it's still being built. Many Lehi members went on to colorful careers. Some went into politics, on the left as well as the right. Some continued in terrorism. There isn't necessarily enough to write a full article about each notable former member, but a list is a good means of writing about them. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk03:00, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Shaltiel Ben-Yair does not meet WP:GNG. He gets only a handful of Google results [77], [78], all of which are passing mentions, and all but one of those are for his participation in the 1952 bombing of the house of then Communications Minister David Pinkas, who himself doesn't even have a Wikipedia article. And beyond that, the article is merely a duplicate of Lehi (group)#Prominent members of Lehi, plus Commanders which in my opinion easily can and should be in that main article, not as a WP:CONTENTFORK. -- Softlavender (talk) 03:55, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I will note the Hebrew wiki has 68 Lehi fighters ([79]) - and IMHO the Hebrew wiki tends to be more selective regarding inclusion. I'm sure there are enough of these who would pass English GNG (with Hebrew sources), but don't have an English article.Icewhiz (talk) 07:54, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral - at current article state (which seems to be as a copy paste of an existing list in Lehi_(group)#Prominent_members_of_Lehi). There are plenty of notable Lehi fighters (both for their Lehi activity, and for their post-Lehi activity). Constructively I might add that creating a category of "Lehi fighters" (in line with the Hebrew wiki category - [80]) - and populating the list semi-automatically would make much more sense than the current list. If the list is improved (beyond being a copy-paste of the existing list in the Lehi entry, particularly using a category) - I will change my vote. There are enough English wiki Lehi fighters to create a list, as can be seen in Category:Lehi (group).Icewhiz (talk) 06:04, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to the main article. @Malik Shabazz: you are right about the criteria when we are talking about "a specific event" they don't have to already have a page on WP, a "specific event" is not the same as being a member of a group. There could be hundreds of members of this group or maybe thousands. It further says on the LISTPEOPLE page "In other cases, editors choose even more stringent requirements, such as already having an article written (not just qualifying for one), or being notable specifically for reasons related to membership in this group. This is commonly used to control the size of lists that could otherwise run to hundreds or thousands of people..."
To be included without having their own page means that their role in the group has to be significant, simply appearing on a list IMHO is not sufficient, there would have to be coverage of acts that he carried out as a member of this group. Until the list of notable members in the article become unwieldy then the raison d'être of this article is questionable. Domdeparis (talk) 09:42, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Domdeparis, Lehi (group) and its members are famous for a single event: their role in terrorist activities aimed at driving the British and the Arabs out of Palestine during the 1940s.
Also, please note the phrase at the beginning of the sentence you quote: "In [some] cases, editors choose even more stringent requirements". In other words, the editors of a list may choose to be more restrictive than the guideline requires. It does not say, "Editors may nominate a list for deletion a mere days after its creation because they feel its requirements are insufficiently stringent." That's just not a valid reason for deletion. That's what the talk page is for, not AfD. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk04:04, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry but there is no way that membership of a group that lasted for 8 years can be defined as an event. An event could last for a few days or weeks I suppose but not 8 years. There is an edit war going on on this page if I understand rightly as to who should and who should not be included. I maintain that there has to be proof that the members on the page are notable enough to be included and as there are only a few that are notable as per WP:LISTPEOPLE this page should be redirected until the list on the main page becomes too long. Domdeparis (talk) 06:21, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The single event claim is a poor argument. Should we delete List of people involved with the French Resistance - which lasted for far shorter? There are many lists of people involved in conflict. I have a problem with the current state of the article (which is copy-pasted from the main) - but I do agree this subject could definitely merit a list.Icewhiz (talk) 06:38, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Icewhiz: Thank you! You have chosen a perfect exemple of a good list of members of a group to illustrate my point! There are nearly 200 names on this list and with the exception of 5 redlinked names and one that should be created as a redirect to another article every single one of them has its own WP page either in English or French. The French resistance was not a "specific event" and as you can see there are no names that do not have their own WP page. You are comparing the 2 articles and I think you are right. Both of them cover a group of people that were members of an organisation that carried out actions over a long period of time and not during a single event. As such each person should already have an article or be notable specifically for reasons related to membership in this group. This list backs up my arguments, the French resistance medal was awarded to over 60,000 people, so all were documented members of the resistance, it would be impossible to list them all on a WP page which is why only members with their own pages are listed there and I suggest the same thing for the Lehi members and if there are only a limited number then the page for members is unnecessary for the moment. Domdeparis (talk) 08:54, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Joefromrandb: I'm sorry I don't quite understand. I was the one who quoted the criteria to explain why I !vote redirect. The criteria for inclusion in a list of people but not meeting the Wikipedia notability guidelines is essentially for those that took part in an event. What I'm saying is that this doesn't apply here because being a member of a group that existed for 8 years is not an event. Normally for this kind of group each member has to have its own page to be included or a notable role in the group prouved by sources. This is why I !vote redirect until the list of notable members becomes too long. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Does this qualify as an event so the criteria for inclusion are less strict? Domdeparis (talk) 06:41, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
sorry my bad I should have been more explicit, that should have read "try reading it"...so what was the "actual policy" you wanted to point me to? Domdeparis (talk) 00:44, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
that's quite a surreal comment about policy...anyway I never said listpeople said that. I said that was my reasoning behind voting redirect. End of comment I'll let others work it out now. Domdeparis (talk)
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Article seems to be promotion for one website 'www.glowsticking.com' No other reliable sources verify the notability of this articles subject Robynthehode (talk) 06:55, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete then Redirect to Poi (performance art), where the concept is already covered. This page is entirely an extension of glowsticking.com and thus both promotional and entirely based on an unreliable source. Thus there's nothing to merge. The article strains to try to define itself as distinct from or inclusive of the various other terms that we already cover in other articles, a neologism that encompasses both juggling and poi with glowsticks, when we already have articles about those (and which are, individual much more notable than this umbrella neologism). — Rhododendritestalk \\ 03:24, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus. While it's pretty clear that this article should probably be kept in one form or another, there is no clear consensus in what form this article should continue to exist, be it as a redirect (with or without merge) or as a list or DAB page. Since no more discussion happened despite a relist, this should be handled at the talk page now though, not at AFD. SoWhy06:51, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This disambiguation page actively impedes navigation. WP has dozens (possibly hundreds) of articles about universities with a Faculty of Humanities (or words to that effect) and this dab page could only be an incomplete list. Better to delete it and let Search do its job? (For example, there is no article for Faculty of Engineering or Faculty of Modern Languages, and Faculty of Arts is about the general topic). Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 07:08, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. No valid reason for deletion has been offered (WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST doesn't count, and I don't see how this "impedes navigation"). I see about a dozen nine with this specific title, so length isn't an issue. A minor quibble is whether it should be considered a dab page or a list. Clarityfiend (talk) 12:59, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Impeding navigation is absolutely a valid reason, even if you don't agree with it. Wikipedia has a search function, and many of us have found that it gets you to the page you want more efficiently than some dab pages do. Since that's the entire purpose of dab pages, a dab page that doesn't do that job well shouldn't exist. You can disagree about the relative effectiveness of different modes of navigation. But to say that Shhhnotsoloud hasn't given a "valid reason" is false and beneath the standard of reasoned discussion. —swpbT13:08, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and redirect to Faculty (division). Redirect the red links there also. There is no reason that such an article can't house some exemplary lists of faculties of certain types. bd2412T17:09, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as per nom. There's no way that there can ever be a useful page under this name; it's a vague and generic term. The arbitrary list of departments is worse than useless, and there's no plausible redirect candidate. Power~enwiki (talk) 19:14, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Listify. If there are possibly a hundred notable Faculties of Humanities, that would be a great candidate for a list. A curated list of all notable faculties would be a lot more useful for our readers than a potluck of search results, especially if it's sortable by country, university, etc. This disambiguation is a good start. --Tavix(talk)02:00, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but add links to relevant other articles, lists, categories. As far as I can see this specifically lists faculties which are called "Faculty of Humanities" as opposed to other similar faculties with different names (e.g. "Faculty of the Humanities", "Faculty of Arts and Humanities", etc.), and is a perfectly valid DAB. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions02:16, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The arguments that this will hinder rather than aid navigation makes sense to me. A list like this will always be incomplete, and the search function does a better job. -- RoySmith(talk)00:06, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep First principal/preceptor of a significant and prestigious secondary school, and therefore passes WP:PROF#C6. Other principals of the same institution also have individual pages. Sources have been added. Peapod21(talk) 02:00, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
But Peapod21 where do you see that WP:PROF#C6 covers high school principals? It does not. Maybe his textbooks might be of importance, but I don't think the position at a secondary school would. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 10:57, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
WP:PROF#C6 states that a person is notable if he/she has held a "highest-level elected or appointed administrative post at a major academic institution or major academic society." It does not state that secondary school positions do not count, and I would consider Exeter a "major academic institution." Peapod21(talk) 18:20, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Regardless of whether he meets PROF (and he might), this colonial/war of independence era figure has 50+ book references in a quick google-books check. At the time one must note that secondary education, e.g. high school, was not a common thing - a 14 year old would typically be sent to an apprenticeship a few years earlier (10 or 12), not to school - the importance of a high school, in the day, was not that far off from a college.Icewhiz (talk) 11:04, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. WP:PROF is the wrong standard to use for 18th-century secondary school heads; it's aimed at late 20th and 21st century research scholars. We should be using WP:GNG instead. And book sources such as this and this demonstrate the reliable in-depth and independent coverage needed to pass GNG. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:13, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - coverage in history of the Phillips Exeter Academy, the National Cyclopedia of American Biography, and obituary (from genealogybank.com which, unlike newspapers.com, does not have clippings) show significant in-depth coverage. Smmurphy(Talk)18:58, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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This is completely unreferenced and there's no indication of notability via WP:GNG nor WP:NBAND: No charting, no major awards, no notable band members, not signed to a major label, etc. --Tavix(talk)15:11, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep as the Dutch wiki article has five references, including some 404s that need to be fixed, that can be transferred to this article, probably best done by someone with good Dutch. They are signed to a notable label.and won a Zilverin Harp a notable Dutch award. Atlantic306 (talk) 15:17, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note that WP:NBAND requires a higher level than simply a "notable label": Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels Also, by "major award", I'm referring to WP:NBAND's Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno, Mercury, Choice or Grammis award. I don't think the Zilveren Harp rises to that level. --Tavix(talk)15:23, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus defaulting to Keep without prejudice to a future renomination. Already relisted twice and only a single weak keep vote. It's time to move on. Ad Orientem (talk) 15:12, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I seem to have run into a Twinkle-based edit conflict and someone else tagged the page for speedy deletion while I was writing the AfD rationale. Given his numerous works with more notable musicians I'm not sure Slais qualifies for speedy deletion, but I obviously wouldn't object either. Huon (talk) 00:05, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Administrator note I declined the speedy for those reasons. Clearly claims significance even if he is not notable. Regards SoWhy08:04, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep - this saxophonist appears to have been notable in the pre-Internet age, young folk. I found a few Billboard articles online. Bearian (talk) 00:16, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. No delete comments in two weeks after sources where mentioned and no further discussion of the sources presented. SoWhy06:39, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Coverage is trivial, a few articles with minimal/vague details based on a press release and video. Plus the game is in early access and the developer wrote the article. Let's let someone else start the article after there's significant third-party coverage. Woodroar (talk) 03:27, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Comment This could be a valid article, if it listed more than 3 places. I'd oppose a merge if it was substantially longer, because list of largest cities is already lengthy, but I hope someone can consider expanding this. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:22, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever the outcome, I don't think it should be merged or redirected to List of largest cities, as a list by area and a list by population are very different. I think the topic is valid, given the existence of List of the 100 largest cities and towns in Canada by area and List of United States cities by area and the like, but it may get confusing to have a list for the whole world given the different definitions of municipality types. That being said, this article is sparse and unhelpful to the extent that, if no one wants to improve it right now, a delete via WP:TNT could apply with no prejudice against anyone recreating a more comprehensive, referenced version of the topic in the future. "Pepper"@00:22, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Largest by area is different than by population. Encyclopedias should carry stuff like this, the topic is very accessible. U.S. and Canada versions prove the topic is accepted by Wikipedia, even. I completely object to idea of using "TNT", for all the reasons expressed in essay wp:TNTTNT including that a) that admits the topic is notable so why the hell delete it, and b) deletion of a notable topic only to have it recreated later violates our copyright/GPL agreement with editors that their contributions will be recorded. --doncram19:10, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete a well-created article on this topic would inevitably run into problems with city-county consolidation. This list is necessarily arbitrary. Power~enwiki (talk) 02:37, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Edmonton is the capital and largest city in the province of Alberta with a metropolitan population of 1,159,869 over 684.37km2, making it one of the largest cities, by area, in North America.
In 1968, the population jumped to more than 500,000 when it was consolidated with Duval County, and Jacksonville became one of the largest cities by area in the U.S.
For instance, it is estimated that over 700 square kilometres of land—roughly equivalent to the size of Calgary, one of North America's largest cities by area— has been directly disrupted by tar sands mining since the start of the industry in the late 1960s.
He recognized the difficulties in using maps of questionable accuracy and acknowledged the problem of defining the limit of a city. Nonetheless, he was able to reduce his results to several classes of cities, by area: very large cities in excess of 2,000 arpents, such as Peking or Rome, or between 1,000 and 2,000 arpents (5–15 km2), such as Lyon or Florence; large cities, 300–1,000 arpents (1.5–5 km2), such as Brussels, Strasbourg, and The Hague; medium cities, 70–300 arpents (0.35 km 2–1.35 km2), such as Liège, Cadix, and Amiens.
While I respect the keep arguement, I don't think these sources would be helpful. It makes a lot more sense to cite the census than a book about environmental justice that has a sentence about Calgary being one of the largest cities in North America. "Pepper"@14:12, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but obviously needs to be expanded. I'm actually surprised Wikipedia doesn't have a listing by area either by itself or as part of the largest cities list. This is a totally valid topic and can include both legal boundaries and defined urban conglomeration. It just needs work. If the consensus is basically "delete and start over" then it should be listed at WP:REQ. 136.159.160.5 (talk) 18:08, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This should have been closed "Speedy Keep" on the basis that there is no deletion rationale offered in the deletion nomination, at all. (Nor has there been any substantial rationale provided since, IMHO. It's an obviously valid topic. I !voted "Keep" above. ) Please take note, User:Sulaimandaud, and don't make any future nominations without providing specific reasons valid in deletion arguments (see guidance starting at wp:Deletion). This is ready to be closed (Keep). --doncram01:46, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Contested PROD. The editor contesting the PROD claims the band is a one-hit-wonder, but the band does not even have a hit. If they did, they would meet notability criteria. As it is, the band fails WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO (as Pink Project) and no RSes could be found in a Google search. Italian site has no better refs. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:03, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak deleteWP:NMUSIC indicates that meeting one of its criteria may be grounds for inclusion. Their hit song was on the Swiss chart for nine weeks, with three weeks as #2. I am concerned about the lack of coverage of the band in reliable sources. --Bejnar (talk) 22:26, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep - There is nothing inherently deletable about an article on a stream-only radio station, so long as that is covered in multiple, independent, published sources of presumed reliability dealing substantially with the topic. There is nothing showing in the piece, but let's take a look... THIS counts as ONE, it can be argued, coverage in the Daily Record of the launch. But it's just a snippet with a photo; "substantial" may be a stretch. THIS in The Observer, newspaper of Central Oregon University counts as TWO. More meat in this one. THIS from MyEllensburg.com is mostly video but also should count as a substantial published source. I suppose one could make a TOO SOON argument that there needs to be a little more water under the bridge and another meaty source or two to be mined — that the sum total of all of these isn't enough to provide verifiability for a WP piece; I'm more inclined to take the inclusionist path here. I believe GNG has been (barely) met. Carrite (talk) 15:03, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. While Carrite is correct that an online, non-licensed internet radio stream can still have a Wikipedia article if it can be shown to clear WP:GNG, he isn't actually correctly evaluating whether the sources he's offering are doing that or not. "MyEllensburg" is a tourism site, not a media outlet, and the "article" there is quite plainly a PR piece rather than neutral coverage. University student media cannot be used to show notability either — it can be cited for supplementary sourcing of stray facts after GNG has already been covered off by more solid sourcing, but because of its limited niche audience, subencyclopedic focus (e.g. university newspaper coverage is not going to get the president of that university's LGBT student association into Wikipedia on "GNG met because media coverage exists" grounds), and lack of wider distribution or archivability, it can't be a bringer of GNG if it's nearly the best you can do for sourcing. So neither of those count for anything at all, leaving us with only the Daily Record for GNG-carrying references — but since internet radio streams don't get an automatic presumption of notability just for existing, it takes more than just one GNG-carrying reference to pass GNG or WP:ORGDEPTH. So no, we simply don't have what it takes here. Bearcat (talk) 18:08, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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